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Quertus
2016-09-29, 11:28 AM
I was reading a thread about D&D stats, where someone commented that low stats can be great for RP reasons. This got me thinking.

My signature character, for whom this account is named, is an academia mage with a very low "tactics" stat.

This, in turn, made me wonder what other things we could create as "RP" stats. Further, what would be the effect on the game if these were rolled / bought in a point buy / whatever. I'm sure in some systems they already are.

A few samples:

Tactics
Courage
Decisiveness
Adaptability

Thoughts, stats, stories, implementations, and discussion are all welcome.

eru001
2016-09-29, 12:13 PM
In a game that some friends and I put together, two of the stats a character could have were Torque and Horsepower

Remember kids

Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall
Torque is how far you move the wall.

Anxe
2016-09-29, 12:47 PM
It seems to me that part of what you're talking about is using numbers to describe a character's personality as well as their capabilities. Fundamentally, I think that's always a little difficult in the real world as well as the game world. Briggs-Myers personality tests are interesting but I think we can all after that there's more than 16 types of people you'll meet. The alignment system is a similar attempt to describe personality/ethics that flounders under close examination.

Not to say that attempting this is bad, but it's not going to be as perfect as we might hope.

As for low stat stories, my first character was a thief with 17 Dex, 13 Int and that was it for positive stats. Close to garbage in combat but a blast to play outside of combat.

JeenLeen
2016-09-29, 02:14 PM
I think it's interesting to think of different stats than the D&D 6. Even moreso if they describe, not one's physical and mental abilities, but rather one's... tendencies? Attitudes?

I can see these working well in games where combat is not generally stabbing or shooting, but maybe as gods reworking things on a cosmic level. Probably would also work well for a very social game where combat is minimal and could be reduced to one stat that encompasses attack, defense, etc.

I hesitate about the idea of using them in some like D&D or World of Darkness, since then it probably collapses into something that constrains a player's freedom of action (ex., make a Bravery check to try to do x, otherwise you can't). Even if not designed to do such, I haven't seen it implemented well n addition to physical/mental stats.
Possible Exception: The Sam & Fuzzy RPG is a neat one, with 4 stats that are mental/physical and then Cope and Deal to handle emotional tendencies. I haven't played it, but it looks like it's well done.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-09-29, 02:54 PM
There's Fate Accelerated's Approaches, for instance-- instead of specific skills or stats you have Careful, Clever, Flashy, Forceful, Quick and Sneaky.

dascarletm
2016-09-29, 04:35 PM
In a game that some friends and I put together, two of the stats a character could have were Torque and Horsepower

Remember kids

Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall
Torque is how far you move the wall.

:smallconfused:
Shouldn't horsepower (which is a unit of work) be how much you displace an object?
Torque is closer to force, but it is based around a fulcrum.

eru001
2016-09-29, 05:07 PM
:smallconfused:
Shouldn't horsepower (which is a unit of work) be how much you displace an object?
Torque is closer to force, but it is based around a fulcrum.

The motto orriginates with automobile manufacture.

Horsepower is indeed going to directly relate to how fast your truck can hit a wall.

Because the force is being applied through the rotation of wheels, your ability to move the wall will indeed involve a calculation of Torque.


(Admittedly this was a tabletop written by slightly inebriated mechanical engineers in a college dorm basement)

dascarletm
2016-09-29, 05:28 PM
The motto orriginates with automobile manufacture.

Horsepower is indeed going to directly relate to how fast your truck can hit a wall.

Because the force is being applied through the rotation of wheels, your ability to move the wall will indeed involve a calculation of Torque.


(Admittedly this was a tabletop written by slightly inebriated mechanical engineers in a college dorm basement)

Ah, I see.

GorinichSerpant
2016-09-29, 05:50 PM
The motto orriginates with automobile manufacture.

Horsepower is indeed going to directly relate to how fast your truck can hit a wall.

Because the force is being applied through the rotation of wheels, your ability to move the wall will indeed involve a calculation of Torque.


(Admittedly this was a tabletop written by slightly inebriated mechanical engineers in a college dorm basement)

Were these stats representing the character's abilities figuratively or was it a game literally about cars crashing into walls?

Noje
2016-09-29, 06:06 PM
I like to make sure my stats alliterate. I also like having four stats, as a lot of attributes happen to be in fours (earth, wind, water, and fire comes to mind). one homebrew I made in the past had brains, brawn, bravado, and beard.

CrazyCrab
2016-09-29, 07:53 PM
I was working on a gritty, survival-focused RPG a while ago and I named my stats the following. I put a simplified description, aka DnD, in the brackets, though it was not quite as simple.
Bone (CON)
Spine (DEX)
Muscle (STR)
-
Heart (CHA)
Nerve (WIS)
Brain (INT)

In a game all about the physical world and about using what is material and tactile, having organs as stats felt like it made a lot of sense.

In the meantime, now that I'm running DnD, I plan to replace alignments with 'stat' quirks for my next campaign - pick three, one of them is major. I feel like this will make role playing much easier for new players and to be honest I never liked alignments in the first place - these quirks can be functional as well, a character known for being well-mannered and charismatic is, for example, very likely to get invited to a royal ball. An example of a game that does quirks is Fallen London, which has the following personality quirks: Austere, Hedonist, Heartless, Magnanimous, Forceful, Subtle, Ruthless, Steadfast, Melancholic, Daring. Another game would be pillars of eternity, I really liked how they handled their personality/alignment there.

the OOD
2016-09-29, 10:54 PM
here a model I used a while ago for a modern horror/investigation game(x-files/Cthulhu style). if I were to re-write, I would make the starting wealth roll one of the basic stats(so you can assign dice to suit your concept), and have it also effect income and economic status.
changes marked in RED
STATS:
STR - strength
CON - constitution
DEX - dexterity
INT - intellect
WILL - willpower
APP - appearance
RAP - rapport
CSH - cash

roll 3d6 for each stat, in order, then add 1d6 to one stat, and 1d4 to two others.
you may remove 2 points from any stat(s) to raise another stat by one.
no stat may exceed 18.
any stat less than 5 leaves the character crippled in that area(spend dice to raise!)

value modifier
3/4 crippled
5 -3
6/7 -2
8/9 -1
10/11 0
12/13 +1
14/15 +2
16/17 +3
18 +4

"INT" refers to INT modifier
"INT score" refers to the total value of the stat


HP - health
SAN - stability
DEF - defence
SPD - speed
AR - armour rating

HP = CON score + STR + WILL
SAN = WILL score + RAP + CON
DEF = 6 + DEX
SPD = STR score + DEX score
AR = see gear
starting cash = CSH score * 200 USD
disposable income = (CSH + 2) * 100/week
SKILLS:

all skill gain a bonus equal to their relevant modifier, consult GM for clarifications.
add +6 to three skills, +4 to four others, and +2 to eight more skills. (these may be split[i.e. 6->4+2] but not added.)
chose three non-superfluous skills(i.e. driving, not dubstep) and decrease them by -4, -4, and -2. (you can chose a skill raised in the previous step.)

very useful skills include: alertness, insight, fisticuffs/firearms, biology, any science/knowledge skill, driving, computer use, and first-aid. try to invest in at least a few of these, and try to cover as many as your party can.

a few possible skills to get some ideas rolling:
alertness
burglary
astrophysics
carpentry
deceit
search
driving
insight
impersonation
fisticuffs
archaeology
intimidate
spying/surveillance
dubstep
fencing
authority
computer use
auto mechanics
electronics
programming
biology
engineering
first-aid
medicine
botany
interrogation
spectrum analysis
neurology
speak language (each +2 = one basic language; +3 = one fluent language)
chemistry
robotics
tactics
fly helicopter
legal knowledge
paperwork
fashion
kendo
tracking
insight
advanced mathematics
firearms(pistol)
firearms(rifle)
firearms(heavy)
cooking
athletics
persuasion
police procedure
demolitions
lockpicking
grappling
empathy
stealth
legerdemain
psychology
tumbling
seduction
forensic criminology
appraisal
handle animal
intelligence/counter-intelligence
literary knowledge
knife-fighting
network operation
cryptography
extralinguistic communication
mythology/folklore
geology
disguise


==============================================


MODIFIERS:

the following are quick reference tables for common penalties and bonuses, and are not comprehensive.
general modifiers
-4 half-action
-10 blind
-2 tipsy
-4 drunk
-6 on fire
-2/day sleep deprivation
-2 distracted

as applicable
-2 poor tools
-4 improvised tools
-6 no tools
+4 specific inquiry
-4 rushed

interpersonal/social
+1 well-dressed
-2 visibly hurt
-4 visibly injured
-2 dirty
+2 good reputation
-2 bad reputation
-4 target is afraid to talk
-2 poorly dressed
-2 target is frustrated/annoyed
-4 target is upset
-6 target is angry
-8 target is enraged/personally furious with player
+2 target is an acquaintance
+4 target is a casual friend
+6 target is a close friend
+10 target shares deep trust and an intimate bond

combat (firearms)
-2 run and gun (pistol)
-4 run and gun (rifle)
+4 point blank
+6 point blank (shotgun)
-2 target obstructed
-4 target in cover
-6 target hunkered down
+2 high ground
-2 target in high ground
-2 moving target
+4 aimed shot (full)
+2 aimed shot (half)
-2 called shot
-2 long range (1-2x range)
-4 maximum range(2-3x range)

combat (melee)
+2 better weapon (sword->knife / knife->fists)
+4 vastly better weapon (sword->fists)
-2 inferior weapon (fists->knife / knife->sword)
-4 vastly inferior weapon (fists->sword)
-6 target is defending
-4 insufficient space to swing
-2 called shot
-2 poor footing
-2 entangled/hindered


==============================================


STUNTS:

stunts are various tricks and knacks a character has picked up.
start with three stunts from the examples, or your own ideas
stunts can take almost any form, but often resemble feats from 3.5, or mortal stunts from Dresden files.
stunts normally provide a +2 to a specific situation, +4 to a very specific one(sometimes more), or counteract penalties.
the total modifier or may be reached with a mix of bonuses and penalties(i.e. +6 -2 = +4).

examples:
run-and-gunner: reduce penalties for run-and-gun by 2
lock cracker: ignore penalties for poor or improvised tools on lockpicking checks
infuriate: all attempts to make someone angry at you, personally, are made at +5
speed loader: when reloading as a half action, decrease half-action penalties on all action that round by 2
pathologist: all biology tests related to sickness, infection, or disease are made at +4
best foot forward: +4 to make a good impression first meeting someone
good buddy Lenny: you can make friends with anyone you meet, ignoring the penalty for a brief encounter
good arm: throw objects travel twice as far
run like hell: increase SPD by 8 when fleeing, but take a -2 tiredness penalty to all checks after one minute of sprinting
head down, hands in pockets: +4 to blend in with a crowd
arrow to the knee: ignore penalties on called shots
won't get fooled again: +2 to detect lies if you have been lied to before by the same person
duct-tape ninja: jury-rigged objects can either be completed in half the time or last twice as long
taxi cab driving: attempts to tail someone in a car or lose a tail in traffic are made at +4, but steering tests are made at -2
eidetic memory: flawlessly recall any written information for up to 24 hours after seeing it once
tin star gunslinger: drawing a weapon and shooting half-action in the same turn only incurs a -2 penalty


==============================================


GEAR:

all characters start with a car, a house or laboratory, and $1d6x1000 ignore wealth roll, gain one peice of property per 5 points of CSH score
see Heroes Unlimited for basic gear, or stat your own.
characters must check with the GM before buying illegal gear, and must state how they acquired it.

armour with an AR of 12 is hit on an any attack roll form your DEF to 12, and absorbed the first 12 points of damage taken.


==============================================


ACTIONS:

every turn characters can take one action, or two half-actions, all half-action actions are made at -4
initiative is determined by rolling alertness an the beginning of an encounter, actions can be held until later in the turn order.

combat
take cover: provides a -4 penalty to hit character, only applies if cover is between player and attacker, entering cover is an action
hunker down: hunkering down acts as taking cover, but provides a -6 penalty to attackers, maintaining hunker down is an action
attack: roll (weapon skill) vs the target's DEF, rolling over the target's defence deals weapon damage(i.e. 2d6 for a .22 caliber handgun) plus the amount over the target's defence.
defend: focus on defence, putting all melee attacks against you at a -6 penalty
automatic fire: fire a burst from an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. roll an attack, and for every four points over the target's DEF, apply weapon damage an extra time.
aiming: provides a +4 bonus to firearms tests for the next action, getting hurt or distracted cancels this bonus
run: move a numbers of meters equal to your SPD, half-action running moves at half SPD.

Ezeze
2016-09-30, 10:44 AM
The way you talk about "low stats as Roleplay Material" immediately made the Amber Attribute Auction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Diceless_Roleplaying_Game#The_Attribute_Auct ion) system spring to mind.

Though the assumption of that system is that players are going to be at least competing with, if not directly fighting, one another through the course of the game.

Khedrac
2016-09-30, 12:16 PM
It is also worth seeing what you can find on the old Pendragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendragon_%28role-playing_game%29) rpg (Greg Stafford so probably Chaosium).
The game uses a series of paired (opposite) stats to define the character's personality, e.g. Energetic and Lazy (they have to add up to 20 so the better you are at one the worse at the other).

This principle is being brought into the new RuneQuest re-write due out soon, though here it is with the Runes rather than basic traits.

Thinker
2016-09-30, 02:28 PM
Many Powered by the Apocalypse games do this. In Monster of the Week (the one I'm playing now), there's Cool, Sharp, Tough, Charm, and Weird. Everyone has access to basic moves, which are powered by the attributes. Physical and mental attributes, a la DnD are for descriptive purposes.

Lacuna Caster
2016-10-05, 06:45 AM
It seems to me that part of what you're talking about is using numbers to describe a character's personality as well as their capabilities. Fundamentally, I think that's always a little difficult in the real world as well as the game world. Briggs-Myers personality tests are interesting but I think we can all after that there's more than 16 types of people you'll meet. The alignment system is a similar attempt to describe personality/ethics that flounders under close examination.

It is also worth seeing what you can find on the old Pendragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendragon_%28role-playing_game%29) rpg (Greg Stafford so probably Chaosium).
The game uses a series of paired (opposite) stats to define the character's personality, e.g. Energetic and Lazy (they have to add up to 20 so the better you are at one the worse at the other).

There's Fate Accelerated's Approaches, for instance-- instead of specific skills or stats you have Careful, Clever, Flashy, Forceful, Quick and Sneaky.
One of the advantages of a tabletop game is that you can rely on relatively free-form approaches like this, and let the players/GM adjudicate their applicability. (Unlike, say, vidja game AI, where you need to nail down the terms and mechanical effects with some precision.)

I nominally prefer the Big 5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits) framework myself, with some refluffing (e.g, 'openness to experience' as 'curiosity', extraversion as 'boldness', etc.) But your mileage may vary.

weckar
2016-10-05, 07:01 AM
I can't help but feel I may have partially started this thread as I have recently been quite vocal in my advocating of having stats below 10 (and that this is not in fact a sin).

I have little to add to what has been said, but I will be watching this carefully...

Cluedrew
2016-10-05, 07:22 AM
On Alternate Stats: I've come up with several different sets of stats in home-brewing. The strangest one has got to be this movie themed one I did. The stats were based on different genes. Action was your catch all pull a stunt off stat, espionage handled sneaking and lying, drama did most social interactions and so on. I could never quite get them divided up in a way I liked though so I eventually abandoned the project.

On Low Stats: I did a thread about that a while ago that didn't get much attention. But there was a general sense that low stats, while good at describing parts of your character, also rob you of some control because of the game rules.


Briggs-Myers personality tests are interesting but I think we can all after that there's more than 16 types of people you'll meet.There is a mathematics phrase for this: "infinite in density". No matter how you divide it up each section will have an infinite number of variations within it.

weckar
2016-10-05, 07:25 AM
On Low Stats: I did a thread about that a while ago that didn't get much attention. But there was a general sense that low stats, while good at describing parts of your character, also rob you of some control because of the game rules.
The dice do a plenty good job of that. The idea of playing a character that is good or at the very least average at everything is just too alien to me to get into the mindset of, making a huge hindrance to RP for me.

Cluedrew
2016-10-05, 07:32 AM
To weckar: I sort of agree. Agree because in my current home-brew project actually requires (because of how stat assignment and improvement works) that you are below average at something. Sort of because I can remember feeling ill at ease assigning a 10 (+0) way back when. I like to think I have grown since then, but I've been there.