What should I unban?

[Jon_Dahl]

The banlist in my game is very extensive, and my game is pretty much Core only. Now I have decided that a mysterious stranger or a creature will come from distant lands and bring knowledge or tell a secret that make everyone stand in awe... This event will unlock something special in the game and give my players more options.

I don't want to ask my players about their opinion, because I still want to keep lots of things banned. Asking them could give them false hope that I might allow more stuff in the future and I can't have that. Not right now at least.

Any ideas?

[Manyasone]

Reasons, man, reasons... What do YOU want to unban. Do you want more options for casters, for martials, introduce a new system (incarnum, psionics). There are a million options, I'm sure you realize

[Red Fel]

The banlist in my game is very extensive, and my game is pretty much Core only. Now I have decided that a mysterious stranger or a creature will come from distant lands and bring knowledge or tell a secret that make everyone stand in awe... This event will unlock something special in the game and give my players more options.

I don't want to ask my players about their opinion, because I still want to keep lots of things banned. Asking them could give them false hope that I might allow more stuff in the future and I can't have that. Not right now at least.

Any ideas?

Something that helps martials, or at least doesn't solely benefit casters. I'd suggest Incarnum, maneuvers, or Pacts. In terms of "a stranger reveals a piece of secret knowledge," maneuvers are easiest; maneuvers can literally start with the guy teaching a few moves or giving the PCs a scroll, and the PCs can expand on their martial knowledge by practice and self-teaching. Incarnum could be taught in a sort of "use the Force" scene, where the PCs learn that there's this blue soul-stuff you can mold into shapes inspired by creatures and concepts. Pact magic is trickier, since you need to know the symbol and ritual in order to summon a given Vestige, but perhaps a book of Vestiges could be the start.

[Jon_Dahl]

Something that helps martials, or at least doesn't solely benefit casters. I'd suggest Incarnum, maneuvers, or Pacts. In terms of "a stranger reveals a piece of secret knowledge," maneuvers are easiest; maneuvers can literally start with the guy teaching a few moves or giving the PCs a scroll, and the PCs can expand on their martial knowledge by practice and self-teaching. Incarnum could be taught in a sort of "use the Force" scene, where the PCs learn that there's this blue soul-stuff you can mold into shapes inspired by creatures and concepts. Pact magic is trickier, since you need to know the symbol and ritual in order to summon a given Vestige, but perhaps a book of Vestiges could be the start.

Sorry for my ignorance but are you saying that I should allow Binders? I don't know anything about them, but I have allowed them and my players have shown zero interest in them. I'm pretty sure that they have forgotten that I have allowed them.

But sorry if I'm confusing things.

[Kaje]

That's so weird. I would rather take 20 levels of binder than a single level of anything in the Player's Handbook.

I recommend Tome of Battle.

[Jon_Dahl]

I recommend Tome of Battle.

The whole thing? I was afraid someone would suggest that...

[Kaje]

Oh jeez you guys are hopeless.

[kellbyb]

The whole thing? I was afraid someone would suggest that...

Yes, I recommend the whole thing.

[DarkSoul]

I recommend Tome of Battle as well, though it could provoke a lot of retraining/rebuild requests. It's not something you just add in for the martial characters to dabble with a little. Are you intending for your players to eventually travel to where the NPC comes from?

Also, the maneuver system in ToB isn't any tougher to understand than the spells system. The toughest part is remembering when they can retrain maneuvers for free and maybe the different recovery methods.

[WhiteBread]

Well I am one of the DM's that can manage with anything .. that's why even loops are allowed.. Loops that end in a handbook thrown !
But seriously if you want people to stand there in awe u better know what they want. Don't ask them directly. Do it more like introduce a Swordsage and see if they like what he can do. If yes include it if no than it was just a stranger passing by. That way you actually include something that is really wanted and not just "something". Maybe make some Quests with hints towards specific directions like : Incarnum, Psionic etc .. Describe them as Power that can be obtained but don't tell them directly so they don't know.
If i had to suggest a specific direction I would go for Psionics. Simply because i love em ! :D

[Gwazi Magnum]

It would help to see the list so we could see what is banned instead of just guessing.

Noting reasons as to why you banned X or Y would help to so we can better understanding your reasoning, and with that find a more accurate choice.
Also you do have a second option, homebrew. Or hell a third option even, use Pathfinder content cause the impression I'm getting now is that this is a 3.5 game.

[Recherché]

It would also be interesting and helpful to know why you banned things in the first place, both in the general themes and specific instances.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Psionics! Though if you want to be nice to your martials, start with the wilder, lurk and psychic warrior, leaving out the psion, erudite, divine mind and soulknife.

[digiman619]

Psionics! Though if you want to be nice to your martials, start with the wilder, lurk and psychic warrior, leaving out the psion, erudite, divine mind and soulknife.

I, too was going to say martial initiation and/or psionics. though if you do bring in psionics, for the love of all that is good (though not necessarily [Good]), use the Pathfinder Soulknife, as it's actually viable instead of the "bard who traded all his class features for a magic weapon that doesn't scale properly, and bonus damage that does half as much damage as an equal level Sneak Attack, but only activates every other turn or so" that the 3.5 Soulknife was.

[Aetis]

I think you should ask your players for what they want first.

Telling people that something is now legal when they had no interest in it in the first place is not very productive.

[Chronikoce]

If you're doing this for a specific game that is already in progress then knowing what the PC's are playing will help. For example a group with a wizard, cleric, Druid, and bard likely won't be too interested in adding incarnum and having to learn a new system when they already have lots of flashy spells to play with.

But if you've got a fighter, rogue, barbarian, cleric then I could see adding tome of battle being very popular.

Anyway, as an aside. I've never had any of my players start utilizing material made available to them once the campaign was underway.

In particular I added spheres of power and the occult classes to my current 3.p game which started before they were out. My players just have no interest in altering their paths to include this new material.

[Grim Reader]

If your aim is balance, you should unban the latest stuff. When they started the game they had very little idea about balance, but got better as the game progressed. Core is the worst offender balance-wise and then things get progressively better as they learn.

[Mordaedil]

To this day I will never understand what possessed them to include feats that give skill points or the toughness feat that gives +3 hit points.

They are so bad we just call them trap-feats and we cry every time somebody considers taking them.

Except Stealthy.

I wish there was a supplement that gave these feats some extra benefit, like an ability that someone without the feat would be unable to do.

[EldritchWeaver]

Anyway, as an aside. I've never had any of my players start utilizing material made available to them once the campaign was underway.

In particular I added spheres of power and the occult classes to my current 3.p game which started before they were out. My players just have no interest in altering their paths to include this new material.

You could just kill them off. Or more seriously, use the new material for opponents and then kill them off. :smalltongue:

[Hamste]

If you're doing this for a specific game that is already in progress then knowing what the PC's are playing will help. For example a group with a wizard, cleric, Druid, and bard likely won't be too interested in adding incarnum and having to learn a new system when they already have lots of flashy spells to play with.

But if you've got a fighter, rogue, barbarian, cleric then I could see adding tome of battle being very popular.

Anyway, as an aside. I've never had any of my players start utilizing material made available to them once the campaign was underway.

In particular I added spheres of power and the occult classes to my current 3.p game which started before they were out. My players just have no interest in altering their paths to include this new material.
To be fair pathfinder classes are the types of things you usually want to stick all the way through for so it isn't that good to add occult classes later. Also if I remember spheres of power right, it would require rebuilding the current casters if they wanted to use it or for someone to multi-class into a caster both of those are things people are pretty unlikely to do.

[Falcon X]

As a believer that the game became MORE balanced the farther it got away from core, I am a fan for all official products.

Realistically:
- Unban ALL base classes and spells that aren't 3rd party. It's the feats and prestige classes that break the game.

[Red Fel]

Sorry for my ignorance but are you saying that I should allow Binders?

Yes.


I don't know anything about them,

Then don't allow them. As a general rule, you shouldn't be expected to allow a subsystem with which you have no familiarity.

Alternatively, learn.


but I have allowed them and my players have shown zero interest in them. I'm pretty sure that they have forgotten that I have allowed them.

Then tell us that, so we don't suggest things you've already tried.

Also, how does that work? You know/knew nothing about them, and just announced, "Hey, does anybody want to play this class none of us know anything about?" That doesn't count. Did you introduce the mechanics? Did you bring in a character who did cool stuff, and then tell the PCs, "This is a Binder. And now you can play one, if you want?"

Then again, how could you? You don't know anything about them.

Just telling the players, "You may now play X," means absolutely nothing if they are totally unfamiliar with X. And it's actively a bad idea if you, as DM, are unfamiliar with X.


The whole thing? I was afraid someone would suggest that...

Why? Were you hoping we would just suggest one maneuver, or something? The "whole thing" is a mechanical subsystem. Introducing only one class would favor only one character play style; introducing only one discipline would directly rule out certain classes.

You asked what we suggest that you allow. If there are caveats (such as "we already tried this" or "I don't want to use the whole book,") you really should tell us.


As a believer that the game became MORE balanced the farther it got away from core, I am a fan for all official products.

Realistically:
- Unban ALL base classes and spells that aren't 3rd party. It's the feats and prestige classes that break the game.

This is a joke, right? You're saying that, for instance, Toughness and Stoneblessed break the game more than Wizard, Druid, Miracle, and Gate?

[Hamste]

They said the exact opposite. They said they believe the game got more balanced the further from core it is. In other words no class they unban could be worse than wizard, druid or cleric but prestige classes could make it worse.

[Grim Reader]

They said the exact opposite. They said they believe the game got more balanced the further from core it is. In other words no class they unban could be worse than wizard, druid or cleric but prestige classes could make it worse.

That is true. But "could make it worse" is not the same as "makes it worse." Did the OP post earlier that his players had problems with level-appropriate encounters such as a Hellcat, or was that someone else?

Anyway, the vast majority of prestige classes are not very good in terms of power. Much like spells, you only have to watch out for the exceptional ones.

[Segev]

If you're doing this for storyline reasons, the first thing I would do is determine what it is you want the story to be. "A mysterious stranger" can be as simple as a cleric of an unknown god; with the right spell selection (Spell Compendium is a great resource if you don't already allow it), he can seem quite alien.

Tome of Battle is probably the easiest to understand of the potential subsystems to add. But yes, you should add more or less the whole thing. Unless players start multiclassing heavily into new base classes, or you allow them to retrain their old levels into new base classes, the feats that grant maneuvers and the magic items which grant maneuvers will be the easiest access-points for your players to toy with the subsystem. And if they're into it, they'll more likely be interested in bootstrapping into a PrC that meshes with their current build rather than starting over with multi-classing.


The second thing I would do, however, is make sure that you thoroughly understand whatever subsystem you're unbanning/introducing. Build your Mysterious Stranger to utilize it to great effect. If you want your players to pay attention to the subsystem, it has to be demonstrably useful to them. Even if you brought in Binders, the players may suddenly take interest when they see the Mysterious Stranger use his vestiges effectively.

Heck, a Mysterious Stranger who is a Binder/Hellfire Warlock (using the Naebarius trick to effectively get Hellfire Blasts for free) would be devilishly intriguing to some. Warlock invocations he can use all day, and if he's high enough level for a second vestige, he can show off that versatility while keeping his Hellfire Blast trick effective. (Even if he swaps to another vestige for a day, he still can recover fast from the Con damage when he binds Naebarius the next day, too.)

[Blackhawk748]

I wish there was a supplement that gave these feats some extra benefit, like an ability that someone without the feat would be unable to do.

Personally i gave those feats a 1/day reroll for each of the skills. It made them an actual choice, mostly for E6

[Chronikoce]

To be fair pathfinder classes are the types of things you usually want to stick all the way through for so it isn't that good to add occult classes later. Also if I remember spheres of power right, it would require rebuilding the current casters if they wanted to use it or for someone to multi-class into a caster both of those are things people are pretty unlikely to do.

Yeah I kinda figured that was the case. I've got a paladin, factotum/wizard, witch, and dragonfire adept as players so multiclassing without planning for it ahead of time isn't something that they are really interested in.

[Calthropstu]

Is this for pathfinder? If so, having a bunch of scrolls would allow the wizard to learn some cool new spells... and a book detailing some nifty new feats and how to train for them would be pretty handy.

I would suggest opening up the feats and spells from the APG to start.

[Andezzar]

The toughest part is remembering when they can retrain maneuvers for free and maybe the different recovery methods.Where is that rule for freely retraining maneuvers? I am pretty sure that you only get a method of changing menuvers known similar to what sorcerers get for their spells known.

[Telok]

Where is that rule for freely retraining maneuvers? I am pretty sure that you only get a method of changing menuvers known similar to what sorcerers get for their spells known.
That's peobably what he's referencing, the "at fourth level and at every even level after that" swap feature. Although it is good to note that most melee characters, unless they have a very specific build and goal, can usually start taking initiator class levels without any problems. A Fighter-4 deciding to move into Warblade or Crusader is just fine in a sub-high optimization game.

[Mehangel]

Like many others, I would recommend 'Tome of Battle'. Not only is it a simple system to learn, but it has a higher floor which means that player's are less likely to make poor choices that make the character unplayable.

[Andezzar]

Although it is good to note that most melee characters, unless they have a very specific build and goal, can usually start taking initiator class levels without any problems. A Fighter-4 deciding to move into Warblade or Crusader is just fine in a sub-high optimization game.I totally agree. you can even introduce maneuvers through items.

[Quertus]

What should you unban? I say everything. Then ban individual things, such as pun pun or drown healing, on a case by case basis as needed.

Because, honestly, as has already been said, you've already allowed tier 1 core casters and core spells, alongside core fighter, core monk, and NPC classes (and, yes, I've willingly taken those). There's really not much that's going to break your game significantly more than that.

[Jay R]

Is your system mastery at least as good as that of any of your players? If so, figure out one really incredibly good thing for each character, and open those.

If not, ask your players, or you will deal with five players complaining that you only helped the sixth one.

[Quertus]

Is your system mastery at least as good as that of any of your players? If so, figure out one really incredibly good thing for each character, and open those.

If not, ask your players, or you will deal with five players complaining that you only helped the sixth one.

Even here, you run the risk of players complaining that they can power up the one way you envision their character, or not at all. Or complaining that what you gave player X doesn't match what you gave player Y - and why can't they have what you gave player Z - look, here's

Talking to your players it's usually a good idea.

[Waker]

Psionics is probably the easiest of the systems to understand. Since practically every rpg ever has used mp, power points are simple. You just need to know about the power augmentation rules.
Maneuvers are also fairly straightforward, the trickiest part is the refresh mechanic for each class and when you learn new moves.
Incarnum is my favorite, but unless you do some reading or have someone really explain the system, it is confusing at first glance.
Binders are fun and the rules are very simple and unlike the others, the class description and mechanics can be read really quick.

If your game is already ongoing, I'd say go for ToB or Binders. If the game is yet to start, offer up psions and wilders in place of wizards.

[Jay R]

Ask your players what would be the three things they'd most like to use. Then look over the suggestions, and try to find a commonality among some of them to justify making all of those happen.

[The Insanity]

Everything.

[Name1]

Everything.

I kinda gotta second this one right here. Blanket bans normally don't go well. A case-by-case (or sometimes player-by-player) basis is often better.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I kinda gotta second fifth this one right here. Blanket bans normally don't go well. A case-by-case (or sometimes player-by-player) basis is often better.

FTFY. Might be sixth. I tend to feel the same but the OP asked for one thing as a suggestion.

I suppose, if I have to pick just -one- thing as a favorite to allow... Gotta go with psionics. I just love the soul knife and the "getting wired" article from "mind's eye."

Tell me that you've at least got the completes available though?

[Albions_Angel]

I am going to go against the grain and say something that is going to get me yelled at. Dont use ToB unless you are sure both you and the players can handle it.

I played in a group that basically only used core and complete. When I DMed, at the advice of the playground, I included ToB for them as a dipping book. No full initiators.

Of the 6 players, 5 kneejerked away from it, saying it was too complicated. One took a couple of levels in sword sage. Well the rest of the players got very unhappy at how powerful this guy was. Before swordsage levels, he was a tripping monk who wore heavy armor and boosted STR through the roof. Highly effective, basically using monk to get early feats. When he threw on some stances and maneuvers he became a powerhouse. I could deal with him, but I admit, it was an annoyingly effective build. In particular, it pissed off the Spirit Lion totem barbarian. Strong, highly damaging, but if the enemy didnt go down in one hit, the barbarian was kinda just a barbarian and took damage like everyone else. The monk could teleport once an encounter and do several other things.

It went bad. Real bad.

Look, wizards and druids can break games. But its actually REALLY HARD to build a god wizard or god druid. You need a ton of experience to do so and if you are used to playing wizards that stand at the back and buff fighters and rogues and such, then thats probably out of your league.

Initiators arnt like that. You can pick ALL the wrong maneuvers and you are still a flat upgrade. A big one. If your group doesnt play high op games, be very, very careful. If you can make it work, its fun, but if your players dont like that sort of thing, just dont bother.

Heros of Horror. 2 classes there that wont break anything. You get a dead themed beguiler and a Divine/Arcane caster.

Dragon magic. Another good option.

When you say core, do you mean PHB II?

What about the completes?

I would say incarnum is fun. That is complex to read, but super easy to play. And it doesnt break anything. But if they dont like binders, well you might be out of luck.

People like psionics. I dont at the moment. But that might be ok to use. I worry that will suffer from the ToB "You cant do it badly" problem though.

[Andezzar]

If you introduce ToB I recommend giving players of fighters, monks and paladins the option to replace the levels with Warblade, Crusader or Swordsage levels. those classes are basically better versions of the PHB martial classes. There isn't really a barbarian equivalent.

[Telok]

People like psionics. I dont at the moment. But that might be ok to use. I worry that will suffer from the ToB "You cant do it badly" problem though.

While I like the psi rules in this edition they really are just another caster. They have spell points, called Power Points, but they're a regular wiz/sorc type caster with all that implies. So you can have a completely ineffective psion or you can have a psion(nomad) who can teleport ten times a day at level 9. Granted he won't do anything else with his psi powers that day, but it's still circling the globe on a daily basis.

ToB can't break a game. It's a straight melee upgrade that puts them at gish levels in combat and that's about it.

I don't personally have the assorted dragon-fandom books but what I've seen of other people using them they're caster upgrades (spellscales?) and an improved warlock/dragon shaman.

[Quertus]

I am going to go against the grain and say something that is going to get me yelled at. Dont use ToB unless you are sure both you and the players can handle it.

I played in a group that basically only used core and complete. When I DMed, at the advice of the playground, I included ToB for them as a dipping book. No full initiators.

Of the 6 players, 5 kneejerked away from it, saying it was too complicated. One took a couple of levels in sword sage. Well the rest of the players got very unhappy at how powerful this guy was. Before swordsage levels, he was a tripping monk who wore heavy armor and boosted STR through the roof. Highly effective, basically using monk to get early feats. When he threw on some stances and maneuvers he became a powerhouse. I could deal with him, but I admit, it was an annoyingly effective build. In particular, it pissed off the Spirit Lion totem barbarian. Strong, highly damaging, but if the enemy didnt go down in one hit, the barbarian was kinda just a barbarian and took damage like everyone else. The monk could teleport once an encounter and do several other things.

It went bad. Real bad.

Look, wizards and druids can break games. But its actually REALLY HARD to build a god wizard or god druid. You need a ton of experience to do so and if you are used to playing wizards that stand at the back and buff fighters and rogues and such, then thats probably out of your league.

Initiators arnt like that. You can pick ALL the wrong maneuvers and you are still a flat upgrade. A big one. If your group doesnt play high op games, be very, very careful. If you can make it work, its fun, but if your players dont like that sort of thing, just dont bother.


1) not yelled at, but certainly started at in bafflement.

2) oh, you play at such a low level of optimization that wizards can make bad choices, and monks can be overpowered. Ok, /bafflement.

[Albions_Angel]

You know, you dont have to be such an arse about it.

Yes, my old group tended to play casters as buffers or blaster so everyone had a fun time. Yes, a high STR monk designed for tripping using the ACF from UA was pretty good at taking down opponents at low levels. Yes, ToB broke that status quo when most of the party didnt take it and one member did.

Sorry I am not playing your game, ok? I was just warning someone who limits his party to CORE and whos party doesnt like BINDERS that ToB, particularly at low levels, can really unbalance the game if only half the martials take it.

[Quertus]

You know, you dont have to be such an arse about it.

Yes, my old group tended to play casters as buffers or blaster so everyone had a fun time. Yes, a high STR monk designed for tripping using the ACF from UA was pretty good at taking down opponents at low levels. Yes, ToB broke that status quo when most of the party didnt take it and one member did.

Sorry I am not playing your game, ok? I was just warning someone who limits his party to CORE and whos party doesnt like BINDERS that ToB, particularly at low levels, can really unbalance the game if only half the martials take it.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Merely trying to point out how... difficult to groc your comment is from a playground PoV.

The funny part is, you actually are playing my game. Most of my play groups like to keep things fairly low op. My signature wizard, for whom this account is named, is tactically inept, and so it's easy to play down the fact that he is a god wizard. And, the MVP of his party? A monk. :smalltongue:

EDIT: and, honestly, not a single one of my low op groups has ever felt the need to move away from playing with all the books. I guess we self regulate, don't care as much about power discrepancy, or something. So, I guess it depends on the op and his group as to which of our experiences his group would more likely mirror should he open up ToB.

[Albions_Angel]

Ah, yes, I understand now :)

Yeah, I am aware my group is weird. Basically, if they didnt own the books, they wouldnt read them, so we played for 3 years with the same set before I opened things up. Anything new was seen as OP. Which was weird because I KNOW some of them had played super high op games before with god wizards and genesis and killing pantheons and the like. But ToB was the final straw for them.

I think it was more that they were used to martials being martials and gishes being gishes. And gishes run out of abilities but ToB chars dont.

I should stress, we were playing at a level where monks were useless most of the time. But this was an unusual monk, made by my favorite player (who loved to try wacky builds). A water orc tripping monk in full plate with a guisarme. Dumped Wis and Dex, because full plate. At level 4 his trip rolls were flooring quadrapeds every time. Thats why he was annoying. DIdnt do any damage, but I couldnt hit him and I couldnt stay standing (until I started designing encounters to shut him down, which is cheating I know, but allowed the others to shine).

I have a new group now. None of them have played 3.5 before, so I have started off with the books I am familiar with (which is already a much more expansive list than my old group). Those books I dont get on well with are present in my world, but in closed off sections of it until I learn my new group's capabilities. I can both talk about and hard shut down a god wizard without crippling it, but I doubt my ability to do the same with a ToB or Psi class. So for now those are soft banned and later I will direct the campaign into these regions if I feel I can (I will also allow players to swap out chars every few sessions if they want, seems the best thing to do).

[Telok]

Wow, very different from what I usually see. I can only reiterate that the psi stuff is pretty much wiz/sorc with spell points (although they can still cast while paralyzed, which is either broken or life saving and required depending on circumstances) and that ToB is just more melee power with a few toys thrown in. A fighter who spent his money on different magic items can have the same spread of abilities as a ToB, but at the cost of high damage and attack bonuses.

[bookkeeping guy]

i like the idea of promoting balance.

hopefully they won't insta kill everything on the map or it will get boring. Maybe you can try to get more npc dialogues and political intrigue going. That may keep the sessions insteresting.

if the ban list is too big though, they may be thinking that you might be unfair...so maybe you can make some concessions somehow. but it doesn't mean you want to rebound and be too loose.

u could go for some things that add more flavor to them but don't automatically turn the world upside down. and u can remind them for every positive change the enemies get that too...that might have them shaking in their boots. if they get too OP you can give the enemies more hit points.

one thing though, i understand why some DMs want things balanced and sometimes go for the retrostuff...i mean there's some cheaters on here.

Like there's a thread for a guy that's trying to do this cheat build where a level 1 wiz is supposed to be able to cast a 9th tier spell...that's obviously cheating.

And then some other yahoo posted something about a half ogre half something else half water orc bruiser class ...and it didn't sound realistic anymore. :(

Also think how unrealistic it sounds if everyone in the party has something too complicated...like everyone is somehow a disney princess slash dragon slash son/daughter of the local diety slash possessing nine artifacts.

in light of above you could introduce the changes to the enemies first and then they could be like...how come we don't have one of those? O.o

[Jon_Dahl]

Thank you all the suggestions!