World's largest dungeon character

[Efrate]

Hello giant.

A friend of mine is going to be running WLD, and since I am a bit sick of always DMing and not playing I jumped onto the bandwagon even though I'm not a huge megadungeon fan.

4 man party, we have a crusader, a warlock, a factotum, and me. I want something with utility that also assists the party. The DM is fairly new to Dming so nothing crazy and I expect this at best to be T3.

Restrictions: 4d6 stat rolls, rerolling 1s, but if you get 4 1s or 4 6s you have to keep it. I rolled 14 14 14 14 14 17.
No dragon compendium (and by extension anything dragon/dungeon I imagine), no web enchancements, don't be a d bag with regards to your stuff. Setting specific stuff on a case by case basis. No leadership or cohort granting feats/classes. Start at level 1.

For those of you who don't know, WLD is a more or less you only get magic items that you find, cannot go to ye olde magick mart to grab whatever, and having ran a bit of it before, what magic loot you do find is largely consumable or fairly meh, especially early (Look there! Some +1 padded armor! Score!), so I want to find something that is not item dependent. This also means no bag of wands of CLW/lesser vigor for healing. Food and water are concerns that must be addresses and will be tracked, as well as carrying capacity with no extradimensional space being around/working. Leveling is done by landmarks but generally a LOT more than the 13 encounters of appropriate EL, figure 2-6 times that on average because its based on dungeon progression.

Teleportation effects, summoning, and most divination spells/effects other than LoS stuff are functionally inoperable. Feature of the dungeon. Also once you enter the dungeon, you CANNOT leave, until you finish it. Very important.

My tentative idea is a buffer/debuffer that has a variety of unique but weird powers. I've always wanted to play a binder, so that was my first thought, incarnate being my second though my incarnum knowledge is vastly lacking. Some bard/marshall something is a distant third, I really wanted to use a newer system, not stuff I've done before. Their ability to "make" magic effects will count for a lot I am sure. I have been told all my vestiges I no issues calling, though effects within the above line (summoning*, teleportation, divination effects) generally won't work. I can summon the armor/weapons granted by vestiges, but summon monster/planar ally is a total no go.

My thoughts are running towards: Cloistered Cleric 3/binder 8/(divine) anima mage 8/something 1 Domains knowledge (traded for devotion), time (haste is good, so is imp init), protection? (traded for devotion). Planning, death, and undeath also up but the first two domains (well one since knowledge is free) are fairly locked in. Use knowledge devotion, save dropping auras, some save or sucks/a bunch of debuffs, and have some utility. Death domain for devotion trade in to give negative levels out like candy. 6th level cleric spells, 8th level vestiges, up to 2 vestiges (really wish anima mage increased number of binds). Lvl 1 start as cleric for the skills, spells, and knowledge devotion, binder after then it gets messy but I'll figure it out likely,but help? Going to have gimped casting for a long time though, almost makes me want to try anything else, but I feel the group needs a real caster. Invocations are nice but they don't give you enough versatility IMO.

I could do cloistered cleric 3/binder 1/anima mage 10/tenebros apostate 5/divine oracle 1, give up some binding for possibly unlimited DMM and max level cleric casting, but it seems too strong and there is less playing with vestiges.

Incarnate is what I thought of secondary, but from what I remember only really ironsoul forgesmaster works as a good PRC(?), and I'm not sure how good of a utility/buffer I'd be. I need to reread MoI. That's what I'm doing tonight.

Are there any other buff/debuffers with utility that don't just throw spells around? I know I'm asking a lot but it would be nice to have other options, as much as I kind of want to do binder my race, levels, and everything is gonna be nutty but I think I can see ways past it.

I thought of being a fear engine, possibly with dread necro and the intimidate feats, but that seems worthless past a point. Tomb tainted soul healing is really nice though.

[Vizzerdrix]

I did an unarmed fighter/cleric in a wld game that worked well. I took the feats that let me give out free healing, use turn attempts for healing, and Ancestrial Relic, along with Troll Blooded to cover my own healing. I got a lot of mileage out of those and was able to keep 2 beatsticks, a trap monkey and a mule alive untill we ran into a sorcerer and his minions.

I think a Dragonfire Adept with entangling breath could lay down some good battlefield control if that is what you want. Youll want to find a way to get healing. Maybe use the lesser version of the race that heals from electric damage (I forget the name). Go with Ancestial Relic. Youll need to find a way to set up a prayer area but it is worth it. Also, see if the party can afford some shapesand. Their is always use for shapesand. Even for bfc if you can get your wis high enough.

[Fizban]

Figure out where the Factotum intends to stand during combat. If it's the front line like I'd expect, make sure you're ranged. WLD has lots and lots and lots of "open door, fight badguys" encounters, it's just not practical to get three people to the frontline and why would you waste a good chokepoint when you have a Crusader?

Ah, that's the suggestion I was looking for: reserve feats. Firey Burst is small and has no attack rolls, perfect for lobbing past the front line and should do nicely for some time, only problem is getting a 2nd level fire spell to grab it on time without wasting a domain on Fire, there just doesn't seem to be a single one anywhere :smallfurious:. There's plenty of cold spells but Winter's Breath is terrible even if you solve the friendly fire. Eventually you'll run into stuff with resistance/immunity, but by that point you'll have had time to pick up other options. Edit: though it seems you don't actually need a qualifying spell to take the feat, but if starting at a high enough level that's not a problem.

Note also that clerics can cast Conjure Ice Beast, which is basically Summon Monster or Nature's ally +damage -special abilities, and also not a summon spell. [Creation] strikes again.

Ironsoul Forgemaster is all about buffing himself, not allies, and must personally craft his own gear for it to work. Sapphire Heirarch can theoretically be entered with zero casting loss if you take an incarnum race and burn four feats on Shape Soulmeld x3 and Extra Essentia. I mention this because if you're being the "full caster," you have to actually be the full caster. Once you're stuck in WLD you have to be totally self-sufficient, and if you delay your casting to play around with other stuff it's quite likely you'll end up not having the spell that you need.

The synergy you could get from incarnum isn't really worth the casting loss. Soulmelds can make you way tougher, especially when you don't have magic items to compete with, but without web enhancements you lose just about the best soulmeld anyway (Astral Vambraces) and if you're actually playing back row support you don't need the tank power. If it weren't for the spellbook limitations I'd recommend Archivist, but that removes the main reason to use Cleric/Druid in having the entire list period.

You know what'd be a really good PrC for a Cleric in WLD? Divine Oracle (also applies to every other game). Even if you can't get your hands on the 25gp incense for Augury and Divination, just being able to cast the focus-only Omen of Peril with that accuracy would be huge. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and eventual Immune to Surprise are also excellent things to have for the magic user. Or if you want domains, there's Contemplative and Divine Disciple, which can be combined. Contemplative's defenses aren't too shabby at all either, immunity to mundane and magical diseases, slippery mind, and immunity to poison. Bit of a toss up weather sticking in Divine Oracle just to reach Immune to Surprise is better compared to all of that plus two bonus domains and immunities from switching to Contemplative.

As for the dungeon, well there's some significant branching paths that you may or may not take, but the first thing I'd point out is that you should not be fanatically clearing everything. Seriously, just cut a swath from A to whatever your goal is. Sure, you may miss some loot in some room you didn't visit, but most of the loot is garbage and you should be running on the assumption you're not getting any. If there's gear that you really need or want, it's probably tied to an encounter you'll have to death with to get through the area or will otherwise end up going to on purpose, not in some corner. You already know all this, but it bears repeating and brings me to the next:

Personally I would recommend against Ancestral Relic for this very reason. Simply put, scouring the dungeon for everything of value is not actually going to be fun, and iff you have the feat you're going to want to go mining instead of moving forward even if you know you shouldn't. Furthermore, the dungeon is already kind of swingy as it is, so it's best if either all the players have level appropriate loot (and the dungeon is comprehensively updated), or the DM simply adds needed loot only when required and runs most of it as-is.

Instead, maybe try convincing your minions party members to branch out their own builds. Crusader is extremely multiclass friendly, an Incarnate/Totemist/both dip is great, especially if you can apply Theraputic Mantle bonus to Martial Spirit stance. As annoying as I find the old hellfire binder, it's the best way to deal with not being able to buy Gloves of Admixture/Warlock Scepter for the 'lock. No ideas for the Factotum though.

Do have the Factotum taking 20 to look for secret doors in every significant location you find. The module suggests not allowing this, but rolling several times also works. Even better, prepare Detect Secret Doors yourself couple times (gogo Knowledge Domain) and sweep the important areas you've already been through at the start/end of the day). Do not try to use Mountain Hammer as the key to anything, making a racket will just draw random encounters and bog down the game.

Don't try to have the players map everything by hand. It sounded cool and I had two players up for it, but the rest of the group spent way too much time having to wait for us to figure out mapping details. No more than a flowchart style map, and make sure the DM isn't being a stickler about information.

Edit: ah, right, you did mention you'd run some of it before. Still, for the DM: don't delay on handing out hints and information through the Lantern Archons. One of the worst parts of my game aside from mapping was that the players simply didn't have a goal or idea what they were doing. I gave them a little push at the start by dropping the temperature when they didn't have Endure Elements or clothing ready, but after that it was slim pickings. I would suggest having a Lantern greet them upon first arrival and each time they enter a new area to 1, mark that they did indeed reach a new area and should keep moving forward, and 2, give them an idea of where to go and what to do. You can phrase this in whatever way suits their motivation best, just give them a reason to keep playing aside from murder and loot, because that leads back to laboriously clearing every room again. Make sure you've actually traced the paths through the area before you try to run it, because very often the actual path will not be in room numbered order and you might find there are locks or traps described by the room on the opposite side rather than they one you're in. There are only few doors in/out of each section, so know how to get to and from them.

[BearonVonMu]

When I looked at the loot tables for that dungeon, it made me want to take a Vow of Poverty (Pathfinder) Soulknife there, just to be independent of the gear.
Probably one with many feats invested in Martial Study.
Cool concept for a dungeon, though.

[Soranar]

The WLD is a pretty tough run for a vancian spellcaster. Your companions picked great choices in this regard. If you want to buff/debuff a dragonfire adept is a good choice but you really lack healing. So instead of that I would choose a dragonborn of bahamut with the heart aspect and entangling exhalation. Lines work well in dungeon hallways so you won't need shape breath.

As for the class you have 2 options IMO (if you want to stay at tier 3 or less)

Smite to song paladin
Bard

Both get healing, paladin is a better choice in some aspects (if you have a decent CHA and you take the spirit of healing instead of a mount)

Bard get healing spells and more uses of inspire courage but he's more squishy and he can never replace the crusader if you end up fighting on 2 fronts (happens a few times if I remember right).

A dragonborn of bahamut warforged (with the warforged paladin substitution levels) can completely ignore CHA and just concentrate on CON. He also doesn't sleep or eat so you always have a radar on. At this point you can trade your spellcasting for more feats (extra smites) to get more inspire courage.

[Flickerdart]

Buffs and utility powers are tough to come by outside of Vancian casting, which is not a good idea in a go-all-day group like yours. Incarnum is a good thought, as is binder.

You could always be a druid. They do a decent job of going without items, hours-long Wildshape and animal companion lets you avoid reliance on dwindling spell slots, and you still have those slots for buffs and utility when necessary.

[Extra Anchovies]

A Psion using the Bestow Power recharge trick (Linked Power, Metapower, Midnight Augmentation) can keep manifesting all day long. Vigor/Share Pain with a Psicrystal is a massive boost to durability, because you can enter each room with an effective 10*level temporary HP buffer. Play an Elan and you can spend 1 PP/day to not worry about carrying or tracking food or drink.

After the powers necessary for the above tricks, I recommend taking some blasting powers. Energy Ray provides single-target ranged-touch energy damage (including sonic, for breaking objects). Crystal Shard is good to have against enemies with power resistance or resistance to all energy damage types (e.g. via Energy Adaptation). Mind Thrust is mind-affecting and allows a Will save, but it's untyped d10/level damage that doesn't require an attack roll. Energy Missile and Energy Stun are the best energy-damage multi-target powers, because their save DCs scale with augment PP at 1:1 instead of the usual 1:2. Using Cold as a damage type lets you target Fortitude instead of Reflex, useful against enemies with evasion. Energy Stun can't affect as many creatures, but the save-or-stun on a failed save against the damage is nice (especially with the double-rate DC scaling). Energy Missile hits targets and Energy Stun hits an area, so only the latter is usable against creatures with total concealment. Swarm of Crystals is no-save, no-PR, 3d4+1d4/PP slashing damage, but it's in a 15-foot cone so it'd be best used for discouraging melee attackers. Ego Whip deals Charisma damage, which can be a great way to take down creatures with defenses your HP-damage powers can't get past. After you have most or all of those powers, you're free to pick whatever other powers you want.

Empower Power and Burrowing Power are must-haves, because 150% damage for 2 PP is awesome and being able to skip your attacks through walls is incredibly useful. If one of your allies can create a Wall of Force, you can trap your enemies in a part of the dungeon room with no exits and pick them off at your leisure. You're already taking Linked Power for the recharge trick, but it's very useful outside of that because of the action-economy increase it provides.

Granted, it doesn't fit the buffing role you're interested in, but IMO it's among the strongest possible approaches to the WLD.

[Endarire]

I thought 'Druid' when I saw this. You can heal, you can buff, you can make food & water, you have an animal companion (replaceable - probably), and you can wild shape. You need not summon. And you're a core class.

[Galacktic]

Speaking from someone playing in WLD, it has sections dedicated to screwing Druids over and the DM book tells them to encourage the players -not- to take it. I would recommend against it for these reasons.

[Waker]

Losing the web enhancements hurt a bit. How about this for a build? Azurin Cleric/Incarnate and then go into Sapphire Hierarch. For some feats, grab Necrocarnum Acolyte and Touch of Healing.
For the Necrocarnum soulmelds, the big one you wanna grab is the Circlet. When it is bound, you unerringly detect the presence and location of undead within 30ft, no action required. And the cherry on top is that when its bound to your Crown chakra, you can create a Necrocarnum zombie at the cost of taking some hp damage. This is useful because you can have an extra flanking buddy for the team, someone who can go trigger a trap or otherwise just distract the enemy for you.
Touch of Healing is a reserve feat that isn't amazingly impressive, but can really save on spells or charges from wands between fights. Combine it with the Lifebond Vestments soulmeld and you can keep the party going for a good long while with minimal cost.

Almost forgot, take one or two of the Open Chakra feats and if you can Enhanced Soulmeld Capacity never hurt. Getting the Hand Chakra for Lucky Dice is a decent buy. In exchange for a swift action, you can constantly apply a +1 bonus to attk/dam, saves or skill/ability checks to you and your allies. Even all of them if you roll well.

[Efrate]

@Waker: that does give up turn undead and if I am sticking with vanician casting I might as well do it best I can, DMM persist gives me a lot of staying power, and even just mass lesser vigor and one other buff persisted will be enough to alleviate a ton of issues. I think I'd rather do incarnate 20, no where near as good but I can at least bind all my chakras and have limitless staying power.

For races: if I stick binder or binder/KotSS, dragonborn warforged (wings) sound ok? +4 con, -2 dex, -2 wis, -2 cha. I won't be using DC scaling powers mostly, but with adamantine body gives me huge early AC, flight continuously which is nice, a nice bucket of HP, the yummy warforged immunities plus binder staying power. More of a melee oriented role, but a few levels of totemist perhaps somewhere gives me a silly natural attack routine, a bit more versatility and goes a long way to making me less squishy. No improved binding until level 3 unless I get flaws allowed (trying), but it sounds very surviable. Plus using soul power and/or siphoning off my soul to things beyond mortal minds as a warforged sounds like a great RP concept as I come to grips with actually being alive and what it entails. I'll make some bad pacts with the cha hit but not a huge deal.

Necrocarnate looks good if I go incarnate, I wonder if I can convince him for hellbred to allow it while still being good. Nice suggestion, disposable more or less free zombies are great.

Limitless PP psions are way above t3, but if I restrain myself I might be able to do it just to have staying power if he allows it. Shared pain and a psicrystal will help a lot I'm sure. Its just way more abusable than DMM persist IMO.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I appreciate it.

[Waker]

For clarification, I wasn't suggesting the Azurin Cleric acf. Azurin is just handy for the extra essentia.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Speaking from someone playing in WLD, it has sections dedicated to screwing Druids over massively boosting druids and the DM book tells them to encourage the players -not- to take it. I would recommend against it totally recommend it for these reasons.Fixed that for you. Invest skill points and lots of skill boosters (in fact, feel free to spend most of your first level wealth on that, since it'll be your main schtick for awhile) into Handle Animal and a few spells to charming animals. Now summon animals and befriend them. Since they don't go away after the summoning is over, you've now got a horde of animal friends to do your bidding. And possibly a great food source, especially if you're carnivorous.

Apparently, the WLD doesn't have enough animals for a druid to choose their animal companion from. And yet they give you tons of permanent summoned animals, practically for free.

I don't know what they were smoking when they thought that "infinite summoned pets" was a bad thing.

[Fizban]

The "rule" you're referencing is an alternative given at the end of the sidebar, for DMs that refuse to ban spells, presumably because they just can't say no. What is the actual, main, default, and most obvious rule already given?

We don't feel good about the answer DM's are going to give on this one, but here goes. PC's can't have access to summoning spells. It's game breaking. We can't eliminate conjuration magic entirely, even though by the backstory of the Dungeon it shouldn't work at all.
Try again.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The "rule" you're referencing is an alternative given at the end of the sidebar, for DMs that refuse to ban spells, presumably because they just can't say no. What is the actual, main, default, and most obvious rule already given?

Try again.And yet, it says in several other places that summoning works -- you just can't leave once summoned. The first part of the sidebar goes against that entirely, while the second seems to work with it just fine.

So you have the entire rest of the book, where summoning stuff in works fine, but the one sidebar has half a section that says it doesn't work, while the rest of it says it does. So which is it?

[edit] The book also says that web is banned, but guess what spell is in the very first spellbook that the players can get if they try?

WLD is screwy and makes no sense.

[Fizban]

You say the entire rest of the book, I've read maybe 1/3-1/2 of it (which I'd say is quite a lot) and I can't remember any mention, aside from the one about demonic/devilish innate summoning right next to the main one and backstory. As for which it is, I can't do much more than repeat it: PC's can't have access to summoning spells. It doesn't matter if there are mentions of NPCs or backstory using summoning spells, PCs are not allowed. The World's Largest Dungeon does not have the luxury of treating all actors equally, it requires varying levels of fiat, rebuilding, and interpretation just to run, and the no-summoning sidebar is pretty dang clear about what the default is.

There is the contradiction of plenty of "banned" spells in NPC spellbooks, such as Web in the goblin area (a sidebar says they made sure NPCs don't have it, but is wrong*) and Summon Monster in the drow's laboratory (which specifically notes that if summoning spells don't work the spells should be replaced). In order to "prove" a serious contradiction you're going to need a PC-classed NPC casting a summon in an encounter, though it'd actually need to be explicitly off a scroll the PCs can loot, since otherwise it's still an NPC which is not subject to PC bans. While I'd be interested to see an example, you'd need multiple sections using summoning as a major combat mechanic in order to support your hyperbole.

Trying to claim a RAW abuse build in a dungeon that runs on fiat and specifically says that ability should not be allowed is one of the thinnest claims you can make.

*I actually think it's likely they just forgot about the one or two earliest spellbooks, because the goblin area is lame and the other is a dead minor character. The major drow book is clean, the fire mage in the section I'm reading now is clean, and the driders don't seem to be packing it either. It's unfortunate that they screwed up in the early areas, but it's not exactly hard to fix if you don't just skip them entirely.

[Efrate]

Well i got new info today. No dragonborn though warforged is ok, and all summons work but you lost control after the spells duration. Im do not have access to zycrell so its not that big a deal. Tenebrous grants 1 turn undead every 5 rounds and they dont accure if unused so no dmm hyper abuse. Still not sure if i want divine anima mage or just binder/KotSS maybe with some totemist. Any other good divine feats for solitary turn attempts? Psionics got ye olde banhammer as well so thats out. Hellbred and necrocarnum as a good incarnate did get okayed so thats another option.

[Fizban]

Unless your full table has agreed that the "summons turn hostile" rule will actually be treated as intended and not abused, I would highly recommend telling your DM to reconsider. Otherwise even if you don't one of the other players might.

[Efrate]

We all agree it's not license to blanket everything in a horde of crazy bodies to kill everything then do cleanup. Just summons are at best a last ditch effort and we need to realize that we gotta take them out or do something after said duration. Our factotum is mostly playing going to be playing rogue replacement, which I can eventually help with, crusader is tank/melee DPS which I do as well early, warlock is pew pew laser man, with utility but no crazy summon shenanigans, and I'm only taking 1 level of cleric, maybe one of divine oracle at 20 or something, so anything I do is very negligible in a long term sense and I am just grabbing a few low level utility/buffs, divine magic item usage, and rebuke to power some amount of divine feats.

Base Build

Warforged cloistered cleric 1 (knowledge, war, death)/binder 13/KotSS 5/??? 1.

Adamantine body, death devotion, knowledge devotion, MWP and WF: Halberd at lvl 1. AC 19, higher will spells as needed. I'm a tank with a bit of debuffing and can possibly command some skeletons or zombies, or at the least keep them at bay. Craft armorsmithing, AC, DR, and a reach weapons should keep me alive through lvl 1. 9HP isn't great but its not terrible. Death and knowledge devotion give the ability to swing fights by a rather good amount.

Collector of stories at 2 gives me really good knowledge checks to help. Improved binding at 3, expel vestige at 5, ignore special requirements at 6? lvl 9 I take some divine feat and then after 12 I'll see which vestiges I'm using most (tenebrous and ?) and go from there. I need a level in something, and not sure if I want to take KotSS asap or wait till I get 3 vestiges first.

Thanks for the help guys and gals.

[bean illus]

If i was in your (T3)shoes i would consider a Theurge. Massive Utility, near infinite spells for WLD, and all day heal. ? ?

I realize it would take early entry to make it feasible, but .. . . Elven Generalist, Grey Elf with Cloistered Knowledge would almost make up for it C3/W1/MT etc.
Yes it's T3, but 'never' being out of spells in the WLD would be tempting, and there's still six levels for 'spice to taste'.

OR... Druid6/Wiz1/Arcane Hierophant10/MT3 . . . . for Druid19/ Wiz14

Anyway, you probably hate it, lol, but i would be tempted.

[Malroth]

I'd go with a dread necromancer with Divine Metamagic (fell animate), you can be an all day healer for any negative energy inclined, a moderately effective blaster when fighting non undead and any undead you do fight are free minions for your ever growing army of death.