Luke Cage (Netflicks Marvel)

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

So I came here to see if Luke cage was blowing up like Daredevil and Jessica Drew. But it appears I am too early. Grace Randolph and Heart of the story both reviewed the first episode, but I wonder what everyone else thought.


Beyond the Trailer
https://youtu.be/C_HHZ3UR458



Heart of the story
https://youtu.be/S-DrloEriiQ
https://youtu.be/rCcDqyFV1RM

Guess I will go watch for myself...

[JadedDM]

I'm only two episodes in so far. It debuted at midnight, and it was after 2 AM when I stopped, otherwise I would have probably kept watching.

I'm thoroughly enjoying it so far, though. There's quite a few references to the MCU so far, including a couple of Avengers references and one to Jessica Jones, of course. He hasn't said "Sweet Christmas" yet, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Clertar]

Three episodes in, loving it. I could say it's one part Daredevil and one part Jessica Jones, but that would be a cheap way of describing it. Let's say it hits the tone and the characters on a very sweet spot that the previous shows were struggling with on every episode. I hope it gets a little bit more gravitas after ep 3, so far it's awesome.

[GloatingSwine]

So I finished the series.

Snap verdict: It's better than Daredevil season 2, not quite as good as Jessica Jones or Daredevil season 1.


My main issue with the series is that Cottonmouth goes out way too fast and he had the most screen presence and was the most fun to watch of any of the villains.

Diamondback was blah, I wasn't invested in his less-favourite-son arc with Cage and Cage himself doesn't really appear to be invested in it either. Also Erik LaRay Harvey was not as much fun to watch as Mahershala Ali.

The B plot between Misty Knight and Mariah was more effective in the second half of the series (Simone Missick carries quite a lot of the tension and stakes in the latter half, as much as Jon Bernthal did in Daredevil S2). Diamondback was a distraction and more Cottonmouth/Mariah for longer, with Luke Cage being more invested in the conflict as he was at the start, leading into the same eventual conclusion would have been better.


I still liked it. I like Michael Colter in the role, Simone Missick was fantastic and more Misty Knight in future please, Mahershala Ali was great and bowed out too soon, the action was good (albeit the final confrontation didn't resonate because again, Diamondback didn't), the soundtrack was top notch all the way through (definitely the best soundtrack of any of the Marvel TV shows, with real presence and resonance with the narrative).

Just didn't give a **** about the Big Bad. Diamondback didn't work, I didn't feel anything about him and his connection to Cottonmouth felt too convenient when his real big payoff was his family relationship with Cage which even Cage doesn't care about.

Dammit Marvel TV you gave us Fisk and Kilgrave, and you nearly did it again with Cottonmouth, why was this scrub allowed in the story? (And he's not out yet because ending. Maybe that'll go away in Defenders and LC season 2 if they do one, and I can't imagine they'll stop now, can be free of him.)

Still, at least slippery politico turned gang lord Mariah will be better for next season, because she did actually have business being in the story and was good onscreen.

[dropbear8mybaby]

It's not as good as DD or JJ. Too many issues with it. A lot of bad acting, bad direction, bad scripting. Some seriously bad camera work. Lots, and lots of times when people are looking into the camera when they shouldn't be (as in, sometimes it's a deliberate device, but you know when it isn't, and it's jarring).

While overall it's decent, I'm just not feeling it like I did with DD & JJ. I was super pumped for this show so maybe I had unreasonably high expectations but I still feel it's currently the weakest of the three. One of the other issues is that the villains are so damned "meh". I mean, Cottonmouth is just... boring. "Shades" is just lame. The mayor whose name I can't even recall because she's just so damned nothing is sigh-worthy. Even Diamondback with his alien tech is blah.

Compared to Fisk, The Hand & Kilgrave, I ultimately think that it's the villains in LC that are letting the show down. He's the most powerful of the Defenders and yet he was given the most weak-sauce villains. Without a good counter-point, the hero can't shine.

[GloatingSwine]

I mean, Cottonmouth is just... boring.

I disagree.

Cottonmouth is the reverse of Fisk. With Fisk he put on a pretence of civility and pleasantness but when the mask slipped there was nothing under it but howling bestial rage.

With Cottonmouth the violence and strength were the mask, a mask he'd had forced on him by his grandmother and which had eventually destroyed his own ambitions and replaced them with ones she thought he "should" have had.

It could have been super interesting to explore that, and they had a dynamic between him and Shades and his cousin (whom it was obvious Shades was jonesing for approximately all the time they were on screen together) and where the real power was in their relationship.

And then he dies halfway through and none of it is ever mentioned again because Diamondback shows up and is boring and pointless at us for the second half and him being not only the Big Man for Cottonmouth's deals but also Cage's less-favoured half brother comes out of absolutely nowhere and never really engages the audience.

I mean seriously, Thor managed to convince us that "daddy didn't love me enough" made a supervillain who would break worlds, Luke Cage doesn't bother to convince us it makes a gun runner gang lord and how he got to be this particular super well connected gang lord because we are neither shown or told anything about Diamondback.

The other three all have their own stuff going on but it all has to take a back seat to the worst written character on the show.

It's the same problem Daredevil season 2 had where who gives a **** about captain ninjapants whose name I can't even remember and refuse to look up even though it would have taken less time to do that than type all this.

At least Luke Cage didn't have ninjas. Sorry Daredevil, I know ninjas are important to your lore and all but it is not the 1980s and we do not think about them the same way any more.

[tonberrian]

Does Luke Cage have sex scenes like Jessica Jones? It doesn't bother me personally, but it does put a damper on seeing it with a group for me.

[GloatingSwine]

Does Luke Cage have sex scenes like Jessica Jones? It doesn't bother me personally, but it does put a damper on seeing it with a group for me.

One in the first episode. Brief flashbacks thereafter.

[BWR]

Four episodes in and it's....ok.

Cage is a more engaging character than JJ or Matt Murdoch, but less interesting than Daredevil. The support cast lacks the brilliance of Daredevil's and is about on par with JJ - it's very perfunctory and the one good character they had they killed. The villains are pretty damn boring and small-time. I feel like this should be a drama without supers but they tried to shove in a super for whatever reason. Still, it's better than the ninjas and Elektra in DD s2. It's just not particularly engaging. Unlike DD, the fight scenes are mess and unimpressive, but I suppose it does look like a bunch of hoods without training going up against a guy who can't be hurt (even if there was distinct feel of them knowing they were mooks and determined to play the role to the hilt).

[Pronounceable]

Except for Flash 1 and Daredevil 1, this was the best superhero series and I hope they're not gonna continue any longer cos they always **** this stuff up in following seasons.

[dropbear8mybaby]

The support cast lacks the brilliance of Daredevil's and is about on par with JJ...
On par with JJ's? Seriously? All the characters around JJ had interesting roles to play, from Trish, to the lawyer, to the social worker, they all had something to offer both the protagonist and the story that was complex and dramatic. Without them, the series would've been much weaker.

Not so for the characters surrounding LC. Most of them are forgettable and unnecessary. They feel more like filler than engaging characters with evolved and complex backstories that contribute to the narrative.


- it's very perfunctory and the one good character they had they killed.
Now that I'll agree with. I actually think the show would've been a lot stronger if they'd kept Pop/Frankie Faison, around as a mentor/guide to Cage. They got rid of him wayyyyyy too early as a cheap justification to get Luke (and by proxy us) invested in the conflict of the plot.


The villains are pretty damn boring and small-time.
Ugh, yes. DD had a legion of ninjas and a genius, billionaire psychopath he's fighting who also has connections deep into global criminal networks. JJ had a mind-controlling sociopath who delights in manipulation and wanton feeding of his ego.

Cage had... the street corner thug come minor nightclub owner, and his psychotic brother who had access to a few toys that he failed to use even remotely close to effectively... because he's just a nobody. Not even elite special forces training or anything. We're just meant to "feel" the conflict because they're brothers. Umm... yeah... no.


Except for Flash 1 and Daredevil 1, this was the best superhero series and I hope they're not gonna continue any longer cos they always **** this stuff up in following seasons.
Flash was great? Really? It's one of the dumbest shows on TV currently and you're comparing it to DD 1?

[Clertar]

JJ had great supporting cast, but also abysmal characters. Luke Cage's good ones (Misty, Pop, Scarfe) are not worse than JJ's best (Trish, Jeri,...), but none reach the bad levels of JJ's less good ones. Maybe I'm the only one that remembers great supporting characters like the Twin Peaks siblings, Trinity's wife, the Kilgrave support comedy club... http://www.racocatala.cat/imatges/smileys/riure.gif

[Pronounceable]

Flash was great?
Of course it was. Flash 1 is the best superhero stuff they put on TV since the boom. Then it crashed and burned in the worst trainwreck of all superhero stuff. They don't do anything halfway over there.

As for Luke, the only terrible and dumb bit was the side trip and it was mostly because of terrible and dumb "science". Plot and characters were fine and I'll take this over JJ's borefest 11 times out of 10.


vv It's not my fault you have bad taste.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Flash 1 is the best superhero stuff they put on TV since the boom.

http://i.imgur.com/mWlcVKV.gif

OMG. You're serious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ok, I just won't take anything you say seriously from now on.

[ryuplaneswalker]

http://i.imgur.com/mWlcVKV.gif

OMG. You're serious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ok, I just won't take anything you say seriously from now on.

You can just put me on ignore because I consider Season 1 of the flash to be the best of the lot as well, because you know he actually you know.

Acts like a Super Hero and actually has some enjoyment for doing it. That is ultimately one of the biggest downfalls of the Netflix Marvel stuff all 4 seasons of it has contained as much self pity for the characters and "OH POOR POOR ME". That is one of the reasons I almost didn't care by the end of Jessica Jones. She was SO up her own rear end about her self pity that I just wanted her to go away so we can get "Killgrave the series" because he was the only thing in the series that seemed able to enjoy anything around him.

I binged all of Luke Cage last night and it was okay.

It could have used another go over in the writing stages. Diamondback felt tacked on as a "We need to have Cage fight someone who can be dangerous too him" with an even lazier backstory attached to make it feel personal?

Reba being revealed as not a good lady was pointless.

I liked Luke, he is mostly sympathetic he didn't get as bad as (Late season 2)Matt and Jessica on my "Oh ENOUGH already" O-meter.

The badguys felt meh, Cottonmouth was good, Evil Political Lady got really boring after the first episode, Diamondback was fun but pointless.

On a side note..I think they could have like cut out about half of "The Harlem" Speeches. I got it after the third episode guys, Harlem is a place with culture and history. If you are going to talk about this stuff give examples. Give a name or two of artists that came from Harlem, play their music!

[dancrilis]

Thought it was better than Jessica Jones but still kindof meh...


Frankly I didn't like the coincidences - so Luke moves somewhere and starts a life.

There was no reason for the Diamondback to be his brother, or for Shades to have known him in prison, it is tying history together that didn't need to be tied together, and seemed to serve no purpose.


However I did like:

Shades he seemed actually sensible.

Shades: Lets do this sensible thing.
Cottonmouth: No lets instead be stupid.
Cottonmouth dies.

Shades: Lets do this sensible thing.
Diamondback: No lets instead be stupid.
Diamondback is defeated.

Shades takes over the criminal scene unopposed.

Sure there was a tacked on romance for no reason, and yes he was a bit bland but ultimate just seeing a pragmatic and sensible person succeed was nice - no need for fancy tech, or magic powers, or anything like that merely being sensible seemed to be power enough.

[Legato Endless]

You can just put me on ignore because I consider Season 1 of the flash to be the best of the lot as well, because you know he actually you know.

Acts like a Super Hero and actually has some enjoyment for doing it. That is ultimately one of the biggest downfalls of the Netflix Marvel stuff all 4 seasons of it has contained as much self pity for the characters and "OH POOR POOR ME". That is one of the reasons I almost didn't care by the end of Jessica Jones. She was SO up her own rear end about her self pity that I just wanted her to go away so we can get "Killgrave the series" because he was the only thing in the series that seemed able to enjoy anything around him.

Jones was drugged into literal slavery for months (over a year?), wherein she endured rape, torture, and became a guilt ridden accessory to murder. I really don't think her pain, trauma, and self loathing are close to disproportionate considering that context. Maybe that's not your cup of tea, but she's really not drowning in the pity party you're implying. Granted, I don't really like Barry, he's egocentric as hell independent of his stereotypical heroic childhood ills, so YMMV when it comes to a protagonist's baggage.

That said, Luke is a refreshing change from the status quo of Supers on Netflix or what I've gleaned in passing from Network television. He's basically just this consistently nobly intentioned thoughtful man, who just keeps going despite the world being fairly against him at every turn.

[Clertar]

IRT dancrills

I might be mistaken, but Shades was the other right hand of youth criminal Pop, right?

http://www.geekgirlauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/IMG_0464-228x160.jpg

Ever since the first time Shades and Mariah interacted in the show, I assumed that Shades had always had a crush or fascination with Cottonmouth's sister-like cousin since their teenage days, and that's why to me it didn't feel tacked on.

[dropbear8mybaby]

That is ultimately one of the biggest downfalls of the Netflix Marvel stuff all 4 seasons of it has contained as much self pity for the characters and "OH POOR POOR ME".
OMG. Flash is nothing but whiny, "OH POOR ME!" And worse, it's all wrapped around a crap-sandwich of piss-poor dialogue and acting.

On a side note..I think they could have like cut out about half of "The Harlem" Speeches. I got it after the third episode guys, Harlem is a place with culture and history. If you are going to talk about this stuff give examples. Give a name or two of artists that came from Harlem, play their music!
Umm... every, single, episode, features exactly that. I really hope you're not American to be that ignorant about Harlem.

[dancrilis]

IRT dancrills

I might be mistaken, but Shades was the other right hand of youth criminal Pop, right?

http://www.geekgirlauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/IMG_0464-228x160.jpg

Ever since the first time Shades and Mariah interacted in the show, I assumed that Shades had always had a crush or fascination with Cottonmouth's sister-like cousin since their teenage days, and that's why to me it didn't feel tacked on.

I don't think so ...

I am pretty sure that is Chico's father Fredo who Pop hung around with back in the day with Cottonmouth - there was a whole bit about that in the second episode.

[ryuplaneswalker]

OMG. Flash is nothing but whiny, "OH POOR ME!" And worse, it's all wrapped around a crap-sandwich of piss-poor dialogue and acting.

I don't remember that much poor me outside of his father being in prison and his mother being dead. Which only really crops up when Reverse Flash pops his head. As opposed to several episodes of Arrow where we get "Oh Ollie has a kid that he didn't know about, and just found out about but didn't tell me because the Mother told him that was a condition to see the kid at all" after they undo that exact plot with Timetravel stuff.

On a side note..I think they could have like cut out about half of "The Harlem" Speeches. I got it after the third episode guys, Harlem is a place with culture and history. If you are going to talk about this stuff give examples. Give a name or two of artists that came from Harlem, play their music!

Umm... every, single, episode, features exactly that. I really hope you're not American to be that ignorant about Harlem.


No, no it didn't. I can recall all of one actual name they dropped and explained during the whole series, and that was Crispus Attucks. Which I didn't know about, and I am American. I just never really cared to learn about Harlem, growing up in the 90s most of the "black culture" (heavy quotes there) I was exposed to by pop culture was Rap, and that wasn't remotely my cup of tea. So my general opinion of Harlem has been "Oh it is a place in New York, used to have the reputation of being a bad neighborhood, which I am sure was overblown because TV does that and was the source of many big names in genres of art I was never particularly fond of..so good for them, I hope they are doing well. Okay back to worrying about Adult things like bills."



Jones was drugged into literal slavery for months (over a year?), wherein she endured rape, torture, and became a guilt ridden accessory to murder. I really don't think her pain, trauma, and self loathing are close to disproportionate considering that context.

Oh yeah, I fully understand it all within the context, which is the only reason my reaction to it wasn't "GET ON WITH THE PLOT ALREADY." but when my sympathy of the protagonist elevates my feelings of her from "Go away..." to "Meeeehhh."

[dropbear8mybaby]

I don't remember that much poor me outside of his father being in prison and his mother being dead.
Wow, that's some serious rose-coloured glasses you're sporting there. The entire premise of the first season was "Oh, poor me," and that theme has been a continuously dominant feature throughout the series to date. Not seeing that is like looking at a wall and saying, "There's no wall there."


No, no it didn't.
Holy **** dude, you really only see what you want to see, don't you? There are constant and numerous references, not to mention a ton of cameos by the actual artists. Seriously, this is some extreme level of delusion to say the things you're saying to the point where I'm left to surmise that either you're trolling, or you have genuine comprehension and memory issues.

[Lizard Lord]

I think I liked it over all, though I still prefer DD and JJ. I think Mariah was my favorite villain here as the other two didn't quite do it for me. Cottonmouth was interesting, but his methods for dealing with Luke Cage weren't really a threat to Luke and I felt no tension with it. Diamondback was an actual threat, but he was a boring character. Mariah was interesting and seemed like she could be a threat given her speech to Cottonmouth about experimenting with other methods about how to kill Luke, and kind of proved to be a threat given the fact that she was the one to get Luke arrested and came out victorious at the end of the season. The only Netflix MCU villain to do this so far. Heck, besides Zemo, she is the only MCU villain to do so period.

I do wonder if they are going to give Misty her own series like they are with Punisher (she still needs to get her mechanical arm). I also wonder how Luke is going to go from the end of this season to the Defenders given that Luke is being shipped off to Georgia while the rest of the Defenders-to-be are still in New York. I also like Claire taking martial arts classes to set up for Iron Fist.

[Fiery Diamond]

@dropbear...: You do realize that some people don't know anything about cultural history or music, right? I'm an American and I didn't even know where Harlem was before this show. I'm halfway through the show, and while you're right that they name-drop people constantly, I haven't recognized a single one of the names that weren't "study in history class" like Malcolm X.

Also, you're being kind of a jerk about Flash. It has a COMPLETELY different tone than the Marvel Netflix shows. Marvel Netflix is ... "gritty angst", for the most part. It's actually why I'm enjoying LC more than JJ - while the emotions are justified in JJ, they really are a downer. LC is less heavy, at least so far. Flash, on the other hand, is lighter and much more upbeat. Any angst in Flash doesn't get any heavier than anime angst does, regardless of quantity. It's the quality that sticks, and Flash is not a depressing or downbeat show. Flash (especially the first season) is actually a really good show. It may not be "your cup of tea," but your views of Flash are every bit as skewed as you're saying his views are.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I'm halfway through the show, and while you're right that they name-drop people constantly, I haven't recognized a single one of the names that weren't "study in history class" like Malcolm X.
That's different to saying that they're not there. I'm saying that there are is ton of material as well as many cameos by the artists themselves throughout the series as a counterpoint to the accusation that there are numerous references but no actual material. Saying you don't recognise the material (or artists) is completely different to saying that these things aren't present at all.

They are present. Arguing that they're not is done from either wilful ignorance or a desire to troll.


Also, you're being kind of a jerk about Flash.
Why? Ask any reviewer, examine the material yourself, and if you can honestly come back with the conclusion that the show isn't centred around Barry Allen's constant angst, then... I don't even know what to say to that because it's so absurdly and blatantly obvious and ever present that we can only be watching two different shows if you don't see it.

That's got nothing to do with saying "I don't like it, and neither should you,". It's simply pointing out that the show has a central premise and that premise is obvious and well documented.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I think I liked it over all, though I still prefer DD and JJ. I think Mariah was my favorite villain here as the other two didn't quite do it for me. Cottonmouth was interesting, but his methods for dealing with Luke Cage weren't really a threat to Luke and I felt no tension with it. Diamondback was an actual threat, but he was a boring character. Mariah was interesting and seemed like she could be a threat given her speech to Cottonmouth about experimenting with other methods about how to kill Luke, and kind of proved to be a threat given the fact that she was the one to get Luke arrested and came out victorious at the end of the season. The only Netflix MCU villain to do this so far. Heck, besides Zemo, she is the only MCU villain to do so period.

I do wonder if they are going to give Misty her own series like they are with Punisher (she still needs to get her mechanical arm). I also wonder how Luke is going to go from the end of this season to the Defenders given that Luke is being shipped off to Georgia while the rest of the Defenders-to-be are still in New York. I also like Claire taking martial arts classes to set up for Iron Fist.

Diamondback felt really tacked on, like they felt they absolutely needed a Threat to Luke to check off a box on a list. The way the season ended could have been done the exact same way with Luke deciding "Eff it, I don't care if he lets the world know who I am." and have Shades use the sniper rifle, and have Diamondback get the Hammer Tech super suit.

[DiscipleofBob]

Apparently Shades in the comic could fire energy blasts from his sunglasses. Sure it's not exactly the gritty realism Luke Cage is trying for, but Cage already has superpowers so might as well give him something super to fight.

I've only seen up to where Diamondback calls himself Luke Cage's brother and shoots him into a garbage truck. It was that exact moment I lost all respect for him as a villain. As a major crime lord who even Cottonmouth was afraid of and wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty he had a Fisk-esque thing going, but that's gone now.

It's also really silly that the kryptonitr to beat Luke Cage's invulnerable skin is basically just "more powerful gun." At least Mariah Black had the idea to try drowning or poisoning him.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Apparently Shades in the comic could fire energy blasts from his sunglasses. Sure it's not exactly the gritty realism Luke Cage is trying for, but Cage already has superpowers so might as well give him something super to fight.

Wait, shoot energy from his sunglasses? or Shoot from his eyes and keep it in check with Sunglasses like Cyclops? cause the first is SO MUCH BETTER. Also yes, they needed another Meta-Human for Cage to fight at this point, like say an Inhuman with a generally tone down power.

[GloatingSwine]

Also yes, they needed another Meta-Human for Cage to fight at this point, like say an Inhuman with a generally tone down power.

Not really. They needed a problem that wasn't directly solved by being invincible and punching good. Like a corrupt city councilwoman looking to pin a murder on him. Because her power stems from being part of the system, punching doesn't work. You can't punch the entire NY city government until she stops.

They had one of those, but they wasted the potential it offered to have a man in a silly suit. (because let's also point out that Diamondback's suit looks dumb, and the only explanation for that is maybe they were carrying on the "Justin Hammer is a loser" gag from like Iron Man 2 five years ago)

The best foil for a superhero is not someone similar to them, it's someone so different that their powers are not directly applicable and other aspects of their character have to come forward. (see also: Lex Luthor)

[Hopeless]

I assumed they were going to use a Chitauri blade as the means to hurt Luke Cage?
You know use extraterrestrial metal that can actually cut him!
That would have been a good callback to the MCU and AoS!

[DiscipleofBob]

Wait, shoot energy from his sunglasses? or Shoot from his eyes and keep it in check with Sunglasses like Cyclops? cause the first is SO MUCH BETTER. Also yes, they needed another Meta-Human for Cage to fight at this point, like say an Inhuman with a generally tone down power.

Not 100% sure, but the Marvel wiki seemed to imply it was the sunglasses themselves as super-tech.

It could be worse though. In the comics Cottonmouth had razor-sharp teeth to bite people with and Mariah Black was morbidly obese.

[Legato Endless]

Not really. They needed a problem that wasn't directly solved by being invincible and punching good. Like a corrupt city councilwoman looking to pin a murder on him. Because her power stems from being part of the system, punching doesn't work. You can't punch the entire NY city government until she stops.

They had one of those, but they wasted the potential it offered to have a man in a silly suit. (because let's also point out that Diamondback's suit looks dumb, and the only explanation for that is maybe they were carrying on the "Justin Hammer is a loser" gag from like Iron Man 2 five years ago)

The best foil for a superhero is not someone similar to them, it's someone so different that their powers are not directly applicable and other aspects of their character have to come forward. (see also: Lex Luthor)

Agreed. This would also thematically reinforce the one character no one person singlehandedly can save, Harlem itself. Luke's strong, but you can't hold a community together with just your skin, even if it's unbreakable, which gives the other characters more to do.

Finished it. The Show starts off a bit rocky with the pilot, then starting with Cage's flashbacks it peaks in the middle of the series. Unfortunately in the final third the series is fairly hampered by a new character, to which I won't bother adding anything more than general agreement with previous complaints about Blaxploitation Bane. Another issue which seems to hamper every Marvel Netflix series is that the show starts off fairly grounded with reasonable doses of comic book fantastic, then is weakened by the addition of something unnecessarily silly as the series nears it's end.

[Avilan the Grey]

Only two episodes in but vastly prefer this over JJ. JJ was just too creepy for me.

On a side note: If you haven't watched Lethal Weapon, do it.

[Lizard Lord]

I assumed they were going to use a Chitauri blade as the means to hurt Luke Cage?
You know use extraterrestrial metal that can actually cut him!
That would have been a good callback to the MCU and AoS!

I actually thought the Judas bullets were made from Chitauri tech? :smallconfused:

[Red Fel]

Binged on it this weekend. Couldn't put it down. My thoughts in spoilers.


Holy crap, this casting was glorious. This dude is magnificent. Physically imposing, absolutely flawless build, gentle personality, great smile. And egads, that voice. It's so buttery rich. So smooth, with a deep rumble behind it. Somewhere between a James Earl Jones for depth, and a Morgan Freeman for smoothness, is Mike Colter.

Now, the bad news - after you get past how magnificently awesome he is, you start to see a few unfortunate parallels. Let me tell you a story. Well-intentioned punk from the street, got into a bit of trouble as a kid. Did his service protecting the country. Subject of an experiment that turned him into a walking slab of beefcake. Profoundly moral and frequently philosophical, prefers peaceful solutions to violence, and can't stomach injustice. Warmly fond of his New York home. Has issues with strong language.

Cage reads in parts like a black Captain America, is my point. Don't get me wrong, he's still a fairly unique character, and his depiction is rich and personal and cultural. But those parallels hurt, a bit. He could be more of his own man, is my only worry.

But overall? Sweet Christmas, I'm looking forward to next season already.

Probably the best villain in the season, if I'm being honest. Other villains were a bit confusing, or over the top, but Cornell was perfect. By the time he's approaching his end, you've gone from seeing him as a hateful, sadistic criminal to a tortured, broken artist. You finally understand why he kept watching those musicians in the club, why he was genuinely upset over Pops' death, and all the venom he had for Mariah. And it made sense. He had been completely broken by those around him, smashed and beaten down in order to fit his square peg into the round hole of his situation. It was tragic and brilliantly performed.

Brilliant detective. Poor cop. The first few times I saw her with those photos, I was trying to figure out if they were playing it up as some kind of power, or simply how her mind works. Thanks for clarifying, show. Fact is, she's brilliant at visualizing and reaching deductions, and her knowledge of the neighborhood is a huge advantage, but her blind spots make her do some damned stupid things. And credit to the show for having characters point out to her how stupid she's being.

She should consider a career in private investigation. Talk to Claire; she knows someone who can give you pointers.

All that said, the actress did a pretty solid job. Particularly in the final episode, where the gravity of her mistakes hits her - that facial acting was really solid. I also like the fact that this Misty isn't some young, spritely, butt-kicking thing, but a more mature, world-weary cop type. It's refreshing to see that in a female lead. It's also refreshing to see that, beyond a bit of bouncy-bouncy early on, there doesn't need to be any serious romance between her and the male lead.

I disliked how much they played up his "man of mystery" angle. It made it hard for me to get a feel for him as a character. It felt like, towards the end, they were trying to play him up as a mix of "nice" and "dark" - good to his friends, bit of a soft spot, but ruthless when needed. The actor was good, with what they gave him, but it was disorienting for me to see a character whose motives remained so confusing.

They telegraphed his feelings about a certain lady pretty well, though. And I do like seeing the villains get a little bit of a "happy ending" towards the end.

Yeah, they dropped her name once, although I don't think they ever actually explained its origins. They did an amazing job of telegraphing her descent. Cottonmouth's warnings about her become increasingly prophetic, and you see early on that she has more than a bit of a dark side. The actress does a good job of playing up her venom and her steel, and towards the end a great job of showing her unraveling. That said, her warming up to Shades feels a bit forced.

In some ways, her story arc is an inverse Kingpin. He was someone who saw himself as benefiting the city, and painstakingly assembled an elaborate criminal syndicate in order to make it happen. She was someone who saw herself as benefiting the city, and accidentally fell into control of a criminal enterprise which them promptly imploded. He came from nothing, and built himself up to something; she came from the most powerful criminal dynasty in Harlem, and almost lost it all. It's a very interesting storyline, and I wonder when Hell's Kitchen and Harlem will overlap.

Did they write this character intending to cast Samuel L. Jackson, only to realize at the last moment that he already existed in the MCU? Because this guy is like a mash-up of Jackson archetypes. You can close your eyes, listen to any scene, and picture Jackson. The half-growled lines with a steel edge. The crisp inflection of barked speech. The sudden bursts of manic grins and furious anger, menacing whispers and snapped bellows, alternating. The use of Biblical quotations. It's like the character was ripped straight out of Pulp Fiction.

That's not to say the actor did a bad job. He did an excellent job. The character was rather shallow - he was vengeful and deranged, full stop - but the actor did very well at it. His facial acting, his bug-eyed stares and smirks, his variable vocal range, it all played well. But the character itself was a bit shallow.

They called her Night Nurse! Anyway, I don't need to tell you how great this actress is. The character was solid, the meet-cute between her and Luke was amusing, the banter was satisfying.

But I do have a beef. Do you have to have her jump onboard with every male lead? They said she wasn't a love interest with Matt, although for awhile she kinda was, and now she's sort of one with Luke? After Luke sort of had one with Jessica? The relationship merry-go-round is confusing, and kind of demeans the character's capable and fiercely independent nature.

What the actual crap? Okay, I get the fact that very little can truly threaten a nigh-indestructible man, and that the whole "I just bought this shirt" gag gets old. But special drilling bullets made from alien tech that burrow in and explode? We need magical tech to move plot? That kind of hurt. I get the idea of setting this up for future events - now that cops have Judas bullets to deal with metahuman threats, the streets are much less safe - but that kind of chafed me. I would have been more interested in watching Luke struggle to bring down a politician without using his super fists.

Also, the crap was with that outfit? No, not the Power Man reference, that was tight, I mean that American Gladiators crap Diamondback was wearing. That was another example of magic tech that felt unnecessary and forced. Also, the generator was right there on his back, was there a reason not to just smash that thing and break the whole gimmick? They took Diamondback, who was already a lunatic, and made him look like a clown.

And let's talk about all this for a minute. This is Hammer tech. Hammer was introduced as Stark's rival company. How exactly is Hammer making so much stuff from salvaged alien tech without being noticed, how is a nutjob like Diamondback able to get ahold of it, and where is Hammer while all this is hitting the news?

Okay. So Luke is going to be carted off to Seagate, where he'll probably be sitting for the first episode of the next season, unless they start with a time-skip, after which that folder is going to be a thing. Bonus points if they bring in Matt to argue for Luke's release, although he really can't, seeing as he's admitted to the bar in New York and Seagate is most assuredly not in that state.

Dr. Burstein has his data, which means mad science. And he's going to experiment on an unstable lunatic who fought Cage in the middle of the street and blew up clubs and is wanted for murder, because he is a complete thrice-damned moron. Also, how? Even assuming he's able to pose as a doctor where Diamondback is being treated, how will he get ahold of another high-tech acid bath? And how will the police not be watching the dangerous lunatic with serious weapons connections like a hawk?

Claire is taking self defense with Wing, that's neat! And Misty doesn't need a bionic arm, that's a thing! And Mariah and Shades are... Ooh, go you lucky kids, go. I dig that.
I'm just waiting to see how all these pieces fit together. Luke, Jessica, Matt, and at some point Danny, they're all going to line up. That's going to be a trick, isn't it?

[JadedDM]

I'm just waiting to see how all these pieces fit together. Luke, Jessica, Matt, and at some point Danny, they're all going to line up. That's going to be a trick, isn't it?
Yep, the Defenders series. It will come after Iron Fist.

[Clertar]

I agree with this guy's review quite a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncHLa441Gdk

Also, official date for Iron Fist!

http://67.media.tumblr.com/44d9f3e01759d32fc763db6d1496c454/tumblr_oeilzfwzCu1uqfsrjo3_540.gif

I hope they do a modern take on kung-fu flicks but still play it straight, like they did with noir in JJ and blacksploitation in LC. I'd love Iron Fist to be the Marvel Netflix equivalent of the sense of wonder we had when we saw Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or the Avatar cartoon for the first time.

[Red Fel]

Yep, the Defenders series. It will come after Iron Fist.

Oh, I know the what. I was asking the how. Think about it.


At the end of Daredevil Season 2, Nelson and Murdock has imploded, Matt has opened up to Page, he has loved and lost, and right now he has nothing. Except a whole bunch of enemies. Given that his life is pretty much debris, exactly how is he going to get anything done?

At the end of Jessica Jones Season 1, Jessica has confronted her personal demons, is probably in a better place, beat a criminal rap, and now has people crawling out of the woodwork to hire her. Given that she's finally in control of her life, exactly why is she going to do a hero team-up?

At the end of Luke Cage Season 1, Luke has confronted his past, and is on the way back to (what promises to be a short stay at) Seagate, while his personal Kingpin rebuilds her empire. Once he gets back from out of state, Luke has no interest in heroing; why would he do anything other than work against Mariah?

Danny Rand has yet to make an appearance.
So, predictions as to how they all come together?

Matt is going to have to rebuild. Nelson and Murdock is no more, and he needs to eat. He'll probably be looking for work, but it's kind of hard to get a job as a blind lawyer who constantly looks like he lost a fight with a staircase and needs to take off at random times for unexplained reasons.

Jessica is basically going to start living flush. Sure, she'll still have traces of her trauma - even killing Kilgrave won't completely fix things, but it'll help - but mostly she'll be an in-demand PI.

Luke is going to come back to New York for some hot Cuban roast. Pop's is probably going to be something other than a barber shop at this point, so it won't quite feel like home; while elsewhere in the city, he'll either run into one of Jessica's advertisements, her clients, or her on a case. That's going to rekindle, because obviously. At a certain point, one or both will have a run-in with the law and need a lawyer, and a desperate Matt will make his appearance, because contrivance is contrived.

At a certain point, Shades is going to become a go-between for Mariah and Fisk, because rogues' galleries must contain more than one rogue. Also, ninjas, because that's pretty much the only thing that will guarantee a fight scene involving a super-strong lady, a super-strong and nigh-indestructible dude, and a guy who can totally hear you breathing, you guys.

People will seriously wonder what Matt is even doing there.

Danny Rand has yet to make an appearance. Misty and Colleen will be awesome, or so help me.

There will not be a hallway fight.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Matt is going to have to rebuild. Nelson and Murdock is no more, and he needs to eat. He'll probably be looking for work, but it's kind of hard to get a job as a blind lawyer who constantly looks like he lost a fight with a staircase and needs to take off at random times for unexplained reasons.

Jessica is basically going to start living flush. Sure, she'll still have traces of her trauma - even killing Kilgrave won't completely fix things, but it'll help - but mostly she'll be an in-demand PI.

Luke is going to come back to New York for some hot Cuban roast. Pop's is probably going to be something other than a barber shop at this point, so it won't quite feel like home; while elsewhere in the city, he'll either run into one of Jessica's advertisements, her clients, or her on a case. That's going to rekindle, because obviously. At a certain point, one or both will have a run-in with the law and need a lawyer, and a desperate Matt will make his appearance, because contrivance is contrived.

At a certain point, Shades is going to become a go-between for Mariah and Fisk, because rogues' galleries must contain more than one rogue. Also, ninjas, because that's pretty much the only thing that will guarantee a fight scene involving a super-strong lady, a super-strong and nigh-indestructible dude, and a guy who can totally hear you breathing, you guys.

People will seriously wonder what Matt is even doing there.

Danny Rand has yet to make an appearance. Misty and Colleen will be awesome, or so help me.

There will not be a hallway fight.

Apparently we're talking in spoilers now because everybody else is too stupid to avoid reading through a thread about a show that they haven't watched yet.

My prediction is that The Hand will feature prominently in Iron Fist. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that Danny Rand is hot on their tails and that his season will be mostly about setting up him as a character and how he got his powers and will then dovetail into why he has a vested interest in defeating The Hand. No need to guess here, they killed his father, prepare to die.

The Hand were mostly set up in Daredevil but I'm going to go with them having tendrils in all the pies within New York, so the lawyer from JJ and the criminal contacts of Shades & Mariah (Diamondback having access to Hammer gear is super suspicious given that he wasn't exactly a business-man and you don't hand weapons of mass destruction to a psychopath without good reason... enter The Seven Serpents, who will no doubt be tied to The Hand), will come to prominence and we'll finally see all the pieces of the puzzle start to come together.

By the end of Iron Fist, we'll see that The Hand really is the major threat that Stick had been warning DD about this entire time, and that he can't defeat them alone. Through Claire Temple, who had been training with Iron Fist's friend, Colleen Wing, the team will be brought together to finally defend against The Hand's take-over of the city.

Hell, I even reckon that The Hand have some sort of connection to Seagate as well as JJ's powers (reference how they set up that her next season will have Trish investigating the origins of JJ's powers), and that a global conspiracy involving the development of super powers by covert organisations, say, for instance, another head of Hydra will come to light. Reference the medical experiments on members of The Hand.

Oh, and btw, spoilers.

[Legato Endless]

What the actual crap? Okay, I get the fact that very little can truly threaten a nigh-indestructible man, and that the whole "I just bought this shirt" gag gets old. But special drilling bullets made from alien tech that burrow in and explode? We need magical tech to move plot? That kind of hurt. I get the idea of setting this up for future events - now that cops have Judas bullets to deal with metahuman threats, the streets are much less safe - but that kind of chafed me. I would have been more interested in watching Luke struggle to bring down a politician without using his super fists.

This has always been a fairly political show, by intention or incidence. From the meta commentary with the musicians and Cage near the end, the simple sight of a bullet proof Black man in a hoodie to Cage's brief disagreement over respectability politics to other allusions, some very subtle, some painted in more grandstanding clarity. Mostly this works for the show. But the police tech plotline pivots around the most unlikely event in the entire series. Mariah's press conference, channeling some fairly contemporary imagery, manages to demagogue the Harlem residents into supporting increasingly militarized police force? A bunch of Urbanites are to just waffle over that their lives will be better protected by...giving the cops high tech weaponry? Metahuman serial killer on the loose be damned, I call shenanigans on the incoherent tonal mess this creates in the contemporary context the show revels in.

[BRC]

This has always been a fairly political show, by intention or incidence. From the meta commentary with the musicians and Cage near the end, the simple sight of a bullet proof Black man in a hoodie to Cage's brief disagreement over respectability politics to other allusions, some very subtle, some painted in more grandstanding clarity. Mostly this works for the show. But the police tech plotline pivots around the most unlikely event in the entire series. Mariah's press conference, channeling some fairly contemporary imagery, manages to demagogue the Harlem residents into supporting increasingly militarized police force? A bunch of Urbanites are to just waffle over that their lives will be better protected by...giving the cops high tech weaponry? Metahuman serial killer on the loose be damned, I call shenanigans on the incoherent tonal mess this creates in the contemporary context the show revels in.


This sort of thing happens a lot whenever somebody mixes political commentary with fantastical elements.

From a practical perspective, giving the cops Cage-killing Superbullets doesn't really make them any more capable of killing non-bulletproof people. Normal bullets work just fine for that purpose. From a metaphorical perspective, it stands in for increased police militarization.

That said, in the show that whole scene was a weird tonal disconnect, which may have been intentional? The cause of the outrage was police brutality, and Mariah was twisting that into "Stop Luke Cage". I guess it's a testament to Mariah's skill as a politician that she was about to pull it off?

[ryuplaneswalker]

This sort of thing happens a lot whenever somebody mixes political commentary with fantastical elements.

From a practical perspective, giving the cops Cage-killing Superbullets doesn't really make them any more capable of killing non-bulletproof people. Normal bullets work just fine for that purpose. From a metaphorical perspective, it stands in for increased police militarization.

That said, in the show that whole scene was a weird tonal disconnect, which may have been intentional? The cause of the outrage was police brutality, and Mariah was twisting that into "Stop Luke Cage". I guess it's a testament to Mariah's skill as a politician that she was about to pull it off?


There is something that can be said about a "Politician talking out of both sides of their mouth to get more power" with that whole thing.

[Red Fel]

This has always been a fairly political show, by intention or incidence. From the meta commentary with the musicians and Cage near the end, the simple sight of a bullet proof Black man in a hoodie to Cage's brief disagreement over respectability politics to other allusions, some very subtle, some painted in more grandstanding clarity. Mostly this works for the show. But the police tech plotline pivots around the most unlikely event in the entire series. Mariah's press conference, channeling some fairly contemporary imagery, manages to demagogue the Harlem residents into supporting increasingly militarized police force? A bunch of Urbanites are to just waffle over that their lives will be better protected by...giving the cops high tech weaponry? Metahuman serial killer on the loose be damned, I call shenanigans on the incoherent tonal mess this creates in the contemporary context the show revels in.

I think there were some attempts at deconstruction involved here.

One: The deconstruction of the "angry black man" stereotype. Luke Cage in this version is far more mellow than his original comic incarnation, and for good reason - the image of an "angry black man" is a hurtful stereotype that belongs in the shadows of the past. Many characters in this show who have the opportunity to be angry, particularly about police action, were instead swayed by suggestions of peaceful protest. This leads to...

Two: The deconstruction of people mistrusting local law enforcement. Instead of the police action instantly turning people against their local officers, this simply created an air of fear and discontent, which Mariah was able to quickly turn against Cage. The reason was simple: These people respected their local officers. That was her hook - "The police are shaking us down to get to Cage. The problem isn't the police," which yes it is if they're going after innocents to get at this one fugitive, "but Cage. He's the cop killer. Arm the police to deal with Cage and they'll leave us alone." And people supported this, because the series showed that some cops were actually liked in the community, and people wanted their local LEOs to be safe.

And that's the point. I think this series was trying hard to avoid those pitfalls. It would be easy to make Cage or other characters into angry, irrational stereotypes, or to turn the city into a people vs. police mob scene. The writers chose to avoid that, to deconstruct that. Did they do a good job of it? Debatable. Because some of those things - like a community not trusting its officers - have roots in reality. It's hard to divorce ourselves from that image and accept the fact that this mob could be so quickly turned from "The police are attacking our kids!" to "We've got to protect the police!" But I think that the writers were trying to suggest a more police-trusting community. Which isn't too far-fetched, potentially.

With respect to "Are guns that can kill a metahuman any more dangerous than those that police already have?" The answer is an unqualified yes. For two reasons.

First: The guns in question work with untraceable, highly explosive shells. Some people can survive a normal gunshot wound. Parts of a building can't survive a hit from one of these things. Body counts will most definitely rise if these become standard issue.

Second: As the ADA pointed out, as soon as police get ahold of these, it's only a matter of time before they make their way onto the streets. Technically, they were already there; Diamondback was using Judas bullets before Mariah sold the mayor on them. But this would inevitably turn the faucet into a flood. And guns this powerful can turn any thug into a minor supervillain.

So, yeah.

Good call there. Yeah, I could definitely see Rand vs. Hand going on here. Given how Stick talked about the Hand being vastly organized, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a... part in pretty much everything else. (Expecting a different extremity?) We've still got those truckfuls of chemical giving people superpowers to think about; the mysterious Seagate experiments, which Burstein mentioned might have military applications; and IGH, which most definitely did have military applications. It's not improbable that an organization like the Hand would have an interest in supersoldiers.

Of course, my favorite fan theory about IGH is that it stands for "Inhuman Growth Hormone." But that's neither here nor there.

[Lizard Lord]

I do have to say that this will truly cement that the MCU isn't all that connected if we don't see the Judas Bullets in the rest of the MCU. Why wouldn't S.H.I.E.L.D., the Watchdogs, or people the Sokovia Accords sends after the Secret Avengers have these things on hand?

[BWR]

Just finished it. Cage is still the best protagonist they have in the MCUTV-verse. The show picked up after Cottonmouth died and Diamondback came in. It got to be more, well, superhero-y. Bigger, more exaggerated villains and some actual supertech. Discounting the first bit I'd say it's better than JJ and the Elektra/ninja bits of DD.

[BRC]

I think there were some attempts at deconstruction involved here.

One: The deconstruction of the "angry black man" stereotype. Luke Cage in this version is far more mellow than his original comic incarnation, and for good reason - the image of an "angry black man" is a hurtful stereotype that belongs in the shadows of the past. Many characters in this show who have the opportunity to be angry, particularly about police action, were instead swayed by suggestions of peaceful protest. This leads to...

Two: The deconstruction of people mistrusting local law enforcement. Instead of the police action instantly turning people against their local officers, this simply created an air of fear and discontent, which Mariah was able to quickly turn against Cage. The reason was simple: These people respected their local officers. That was her hook - "The police are shaking us down to get to Cage. The problem isn't the police," which yes it is if they're going after innocents to get at this one fugitive, "but Cage. He's the cop killer. Arm the police to deal with Cage and they'll leave us alone." And people supported this, because the series showed that some cops were actually liked in the community, and people wanted their local LEOs to be safe.

And that's the point. I think this series was trying hard to avoid those pitfalls. It would be easy to make Cage or other characters into angry, irrational stereotypes, or to turn the city into a people vs. police mob scene. The writers chose to avoid that, to deconstruct that. Did they do a good job of it? Debatable. Because some of those things - like a community not trusting its officers - have roots in reality. It's hard to divorce ourselves from that image and accept the fact that this mob could be so quickly turned from "The police are attacking our kids!" to "We've got to protect the police!" But I think that the writers were trying to suggest a more police-trusting community. Which isn't too far-fetched, potentially.

With respect to "Are guns that can kill a metahuman any more dangerous than those that police already have?" The answer is an unqualified yes. For two reasons.

First: The guns in question work with untraceable, highly explosive shells. Some people can survive a normal gunshot wound. Parts of a building can't survive a hit from one of these things. Body counts will most definitely rise if these become standard issue.

Second: As the ADA pointed out, as soon as police get ahold of these, it's only a matter of time before they make their way onto the streets. Technically, they were already there; Diamondback was using Judas bullets before Mariah sold the mayor on them. But this would inevitably turn the faucet into a flood. And guns this powerful can turn any thug into a minor supervillain.

So, yeah.

Good call there. Yeah, I could definitely see Rand vs. Hand going on here. Given how Stick talked about the Hand being vastly organized, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a... part in pretty much everything else. (Expecting a different extremity?) We've still got those truckfuls of chemical giving people superpowers to think about; the mysterious Seagate experiments, which Burstein mentioned might have military applications; and IGH, which most definitely did have military applications. It's not improbable that an organization like the Hand would have an interest in supersoldiers.

Of course, my favorite fan theory about IGH is that it stands for "Inhuman Growth Hormone." But that's neither here nor there.

True. They didn't really get into that on the show, except for the ADA's speech about escalation. The Cops never actually used the Judas Bullets, but it did set up the post-club scenario where Luke was on the run because the police actually were a threat to him.



The Villains

So, we had three villains this show.
Cottonmouth: Cottonmouth was a great character. I mean, he was basically just another take on "Charming Mobster" that we've seen a thousand times before, but it was well done.
Oddly enough, unlike most villains we see, he didn't really have a "Scheme" in place. Normally, the pattern is that the Villain has some evil plan, which the Hero disrupts.
With Cottonmouth, he was doing business as usual. Yes, he was stepping things up by selling more advanced guns, but the show didn't really focus on that. Once the gun shipment was stolen, basically everything Cottonmouth did was reactive. He didn't tell Tomes to attack the Barbershop, he WAS ruthless when going after Luke, since Luke was a threat to his empire, but his criminal ambitions were pretty light. I suppose Cottonmouth's lack of ambition could be considered an upshot to the character. He isn't a force of disruption, he's a force of CORRUPTION, the snake that everybody just accepts as a fact of life, operating in defiance of the law.
Mariah: Another low-ambition villain with a great performance. The other half of Cottonmouth's coin, Mariah's primary concern was to defend what she had. As far as we could tell, she actually believed everything was saying about her housing projects, she was mainly just complicit in Cottonmouth's crimes because they were family.

I guess Mariah and Cottonmouth were collectively a throwback to Mama Mabel Stokes, and the whole idea of a benevolent criminal establishment.

Of course, Cottonmouth's arc is one big reason why the "Benevolent Gangsters" don't really work as a community model. Their only method of maintaining control is fear and violence, so as soon as somebody opposes them, things escalate rapidly, and you get Tomes shooting wildly into the barbershop and Cottonmouth shooting a rocket launcher and Genghis Connies.

Finally, we have Diamondback: I have mixed feelings about Diamondback. As a throwback to the larger-than-life supervillains that Luke Cage was created to fight, he works, but I never found him that engaging as a character. When first introduced, he's this mysterious supercriminal benefactor with access to high-grade military weapons from Hammertech. From his backstory we learn that he started from nothing, a preacher's illegitimate son who went to prison. With Luke Cage, we know every step of the path that brought him here (Marines, Police, Prison, Experiments, Runaway with Reva), at some point Diamondback went from being a kid in prison to a premier arms dealer? This implies that he's really good at his job, but we don't really see that on-screen.

When he shows up, he's been consumed by his quest for revenge. He's got fancy toys and flowery speeches, but that's basically it. He's reckless and bloodthirsty, and they even give us Shades and Mariah being reasonable villains as a contrast to how off the deep end Diamondback is.


Overall: Very nice show. Not quite as good as Jessica Jones in my opinion, but a lot more Fun. Better than both Daredevils, if only because Luke Cage is a far more compelling protagonist than Matt "Martyr Complex and Anger Issues" Murdock.

[Red Fel]

True. They didn't really get into that on the show, except for the ADA's speech about escalation. The Cops never actually used the Judas Bullets, but it did set up the post-club scenario where Luke was on the run because the police actually were a threat to him.


They did. When they were chasing him, you saw police fire several shots, followed by humming and bursting. So we know the shells were actually used.


Overall: Very nice show. Not quite as good as Jessica Jones in my opinion, but a lot more Fun. Better than both Daredevils, if only because Luke Cage is a far more compelling protagonist than Matt "Martyr Complex and Anger Issues" Murdock.

So much of this. Feels like darn near anybody makes for a better protagonist than Matt. Get out of your own head, man!

One of my biggest beefs with Murdock is his unjustified smugness. This is a character whose doubt and self-loathing should be baked-in. Instead, when he's not in the red suit, he just walks around smirking, like he knows so much. And yeah, one of his character flaws is oh no you freaking don't, Matt, but still, it's obnoxious how long it takes him to realize just how much control he does not have.

Jessica, as a character, was consistent. She was broken, scared, and angry; she was simultaneously pushing away and clinging desperately to whatever relationships she could keep. Even when her behavior seemed inconsistent, it stemmed from a common place. Unlike Matt, who alternated between self-doubt, confusion, rage, and smug self-righteousness without really connecting them, all of her emotions came from the same source, and it was believable.

Luke is a similar character. Everything that he is - his thoughtfulness, his intensity, his chivalry, his solitude, his fear, his rage, it all comes from one, consistent source. It's believable. It's human. It's not a freaking emo ping-pong ball.

I Like LukeTM, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[Legato Endless]

I think there were some attempts at deconstruction involved here.

One: The deconstruction of the "angry black man" stereotype. Luke Cage in this version is far more mellow than his original comic incarnation, and for good reason - the image of an "angry black man" is a hurtful stereotype that belongs in the shadows of the past. Many characters in this show who have the opportunity to be angry, particularly about police action, were instead swayed by suggestions of peaceful protest. This leads to...

Two: The deconstruction of people mistrusting local law enforcement. Instead of the police action instantly turning people against their local officers, this simply created an air of fear and discontent, which Mariah was able to quickly turn against Cage. The reason was simple: These people respected their local officers. That was her hook - "The police are shaking us down to get to Cage. The problem isn't the police," which yes it is if they're going after innocents to get at this one fugitive, "but Cage. He's the cop killer. Arm the police to deal with Cage and they'll leave us alone." And people supported this, because the series showed that some cops were actually liked in the community, and people wanted their local LEOs to be safe.

And that's the point. I think this series was trying hard to avoid those pitfalls. It would be easy to make Cage or other characters into angry, irrational stereotypes, or to turn the city into a people vs. police mob scene. The writers chose to avoid that, to deconstruct that. Did they do a good job of it? Debatable. Because some of those things - like a community not trusting its officers - have roots in reality. It's hard to divorce ourselves from that image and accept the fact that this mob could be so quickly turned from "The police are attacking our kids!" to "We've got to protect the police!" But I think that the writers were trying to suggest a more police-trusting community. Which isn't too far-fetched, potentially.

Do the people respect their local law enforcement? Because the show seemed pretty questionable on that issue to me.
(quotes are from memory, so they're not precisely word for word)

Misty and the Inspector: "Why he's running if he's not guilty." "Because he's a black man being chased by the police?"

The Inspector and the Lawyer whose son was assaulted: "You're blue, so you might as well be white as the rest of them."

Method Man radio show: Man, I don't think their (the authorities) are telling the whole story. Last guy like this they went after, they were as crooked as him.

We see two instances of police brutality, one against a minor. Apparently everyone just gets over that inciting incident by the next day?

Half the police force was on Cottonmouth's payroll. Which is why when the people get hit by Cottonmouth's attempt to recoup his wealth after the Fort Knox bust, they turn to Luke Cage, not the cops, for more than simply his name being dropped. The community pretty much ignores the cops when it comes to solving problems. Misty never gets people to open up her without a lot of work, her badge seems to work against her if anything. Hell, the existence of Pop's shop as Switzerland is an indictment concerning the community solving it's issues without the cops.

The Hoodie Spartacus movement in the community is civil disobedience of the people protecting their own from the cops. Which itself was a response to Luke getting stopped by cops just for being Black in a Hoodie. (Yes, he's a wanted criminal at this point, but the imagery is coached to evoke a notorious unlawful police practice)

And so on. The Show definitely shows that there are some police trying to walk a higher path, (the Inspector, Misty, her former boss, the cop that let's Luke go) but I don't see much community trust in pretty much anyone in blue. Which is to it's credit, because that is grounded in reality. It's really only in Mariah's speech to the people, because the plot needs this to happen, that we suddenly see the people turn to the cops against Cage as far as I can remember. I suppose it's possible Mariah was making a speech to only the people we hear on Trish's show and we're witnessing a painful moment of party vanguardism being hoisted on an unwilling majority.


Luke is a similar character. Everything that he is - his thoughtfulness, his intensity, his chivalry, his solitude, his fear, his rage, it all comes from one, consistent source. It's believable. It's human. It's not a freaking emo ping-pong ball.

I Like LukeTM, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Indeed. This series almost has me hyped for the defenders just because we're getting more Luke.

[BRC]

They did. When they were chasing him, you saw police fire several shots, followed by humming and bursting. So we know the shells were actually used.



So much of this. Feels like darn near anybody makes for a better protagonist than Matt. Get out of your own head, man!

One of my biggest beefs with Murdock is his unjustified smugness. This is a character whose doubt and self-loathing should be baked-in. Instead, when he's not in the red suit, he just walks around smirking, like he knows so much. And yeah, one of his character flaws is oh no you freaking don't, Matt, but still, it's obnoxious how long it takes him to realize just how much control he does not have.

Jessica, as a character, was consistent. She was broken, scared, and angry; she was simultaneously pushing away and clinging desperately to whatever relationships she could keep. Even when her behavior seemed inconsistent, it stemmed from a common place. Unlike Matt, who alternated between self-doubt, confusion, rage, and smug self-righteousness without really connecting them, all of her emotions came from the same source, and it was believable.

Luke is a similar character. Everything that he is - his thoughtfulness, his intensity, his chivalry, his solitude, his fear, his rage, it all comes from one, consistent source. It's believable. It's human. It's not a freaking emo ping-pong ball.

I Like LukeTM, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Not sure I quite agree with your take on Matt Murdock.

I admit, at least in his netflix incarnation, he's an inherently contradictory character. His defining trait is his guilt/Martyr complex, which, as usual for superheroes, Manifests itself as a determination to Do The Right (Violent) Thing. While we DO see him struggle with his self-doubt, that's almost all to do with his Daredeviling, which has the usual Superhero Contradiction of being an illegal vigilante trying to Enforce the Law. So, he has to convince himself he's a good person, when he goes out at night in bulletproof red pajamas looking for people to punch.
When he's Smug, it's because he's being Matt Murdock, using his talents as a lawyer to help people who would normally be denied good representation.

You see, being Matt Murdock, of Nelson and Murdock, is a healthy way to handle his Martyr complex. He could be making a lot of money working for a high-profile corporate law firm, but instead he and Foggy gave that up to help people. As Matt Murdock, he's usually confident that he's doing the right thing, even if it personally sucks for him, hence the smugness.

But the show is about Daredevil, which usually means Matt Murdock stuck in an endless mopey spiral.


The Community didn't trust the cops to represent their interests, but that doesn't mean they don't trust the IDEA of cops.

When Diamondback killed the cop and framed Luke Cage, Luke became the Cop's enemy.

The community liked Luke when he was going around stopping Cottonmouth's thugs, but once everybody thought he killed Cottonmouth, and the cop who was buying Socks, people turned against him. Just as they didn't trust that the cops were on their side, they no longer trusted that Luke Cage was on their side, and since Diamondback had made Luke into a cop-killer, they trusted that the Cops wanted to stop Luke.
It's the same thing Cottonmouth tried to pull off, by having his goons namedrop Luke Cage. Convince people that his retaliation was justified, and that it was all Luke's fault. The difference is, when Cottonmouth did it, people still sided with Luke. When the Cops did it, Mariah was able to spin this into Luke's fault, since he'd supposedly killed somebody.

[Sapphire Guard]

Those guns are never going to be standard issue. They're very expensive (even in the watered down version) and only useful in very limited situations. The police already can use more dangerous weapons if they need to, but that doesn't mean every beat cop has a grenade launcher to hand. At worst, they're going to be issued to the likes of SWAT, and only taken out if there actually is a metahuman immune to normal ammunition confirmed. Otherwise a lot of people sue the city of new York for their destroyed walls.


Why wouldn't S.H.I.E.L.D., the Watchdogs, or people the Sokovia Accords sends after the Secret Avengers have these things on hand?

Either because they already have better stuff(SHIELD), they wouldn't actually make a difference(Avengers can all either be brought down by normal bullets, or are too tough even for these things) or they're too expensive and impractical (not very many actually bulletproof inhumans)

[Thrudd]

Overall, I enjoyed it. Luke is just such a likeable guy, and love the powers and references and the acting. I was disappointed that this series did not seem to have the level of action I hoped for. For the first half of the show, he just wades through bad guys, nobody seems to catch on that he's bulletproof and super strong and everyone just keeps shooting at him and trying to fight him. Don't get me wrong, it's fun seeing him slap dudes and send them flying and knock them out with a flick of his finger and crunch up guns with one hand, but it feels like no stakes: we know he's never in danger and Pops getting killed was something you could see coming from the first episode. Even his attack on the community center was underwhelming for me. I know they were trying to set it up like similar fights in both Daredevil seasons, but it just didn't work. It was too easy. The second half, we get the Judas bullets and we know he's in danger, but Diamondback's motive seems implausible to me. So the big bad guy/mastermind of the whole series turns out to be just a violent psychotic guy who has a petty childhood beef with Luke/Carl. Not even a guy with cool or interesting powers, he just has a suit that replicates Luke's own power. Their fight was likewise kind of underwhelming - there wasn't much skill or choreography displayed there, not even good boxing that you would expect based on the flashbacks to them training together. Overall, it feels like they could have had some much more imaginative displays of Luke's power and more interesting settings and props for the fights. Maybe that is a symptom of Netflix keeping the budget low, but still. Also, Misty Knight doesn't get to mix-it up at all, and I think everyone was expecting her to lose that arm (which is probably why they didn't have it happen). I mean, there was some missed opportunity there for Luke and Misty to be brawling back-to-back. I can only hope that either by the time of Defenders, or in a Heroes for Hire series some time after that, we'll get to see her properly kicking ass with her new Stark-tech arm.

I knew Colleen Wing was coming, but it's cool to see how she's worked into the community already setting it up for Iron Fist. Misty shows up with a much more typical Misty look and you just know she's ready to start going outside the system to get stuff done. Shades' name being Alvarez is totally consistent with the comics, and it would be so cool if down the line they could work in Victor Alvarez/Powerman.

[norival1992]

I like how big Luke is on respect and being polite, I usually dont buy the "I have super powers but I don't want to get involved" stuff but it works for this show mainly because of how well Colter carries it

[Pex]

Darn it, why did they have to go with the trope of the corrupt cop? I admit to not seeing it in the first two episodes, but his praise of vigilantes was suspicious. However, just before he did it I knew. Chico going on and on about doing the right thing. It was so sappy you just knew it was a set-up. It's a Marvel cliche now it's a legitimate shock when someone is not secretly working for the bad guy. Here's to hoping the new director of SHIELD is Honest True forever.

[Dragonexx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p0BhaTSxSg

Just gonna post the best scene from the show here.

[Thrudd]

Just gonna post the best scene from the show here.
Yes, that was f-ing amazing. I did love the use of music throughout.

[Clertar]

Fun fact: as a non American watching the series, until I read a review of the episode with the speech to the young robber at the park, I was convinced that Luke Cage had raided the "Christmas Attics."

[Erys]

Fun fact: as a non American watching the series, until I read a review of the episode with the speech to the young robber at the park, I was convinced that Luke Cage had raided the "Christmas Attics."

Don't feel bad, I heard that too at first. Sadly I bet most American's have no clue who "Crispus Attucks" is and why he, and the others shot in Boston that day, are important.

That said, Luke Cage was excellent!




Darn it, why did they have to go with the trope of the corrupt cop? I admit to not seeing it in the first two episodes, but his praise of vigilantes was suspicious. However, just before he did it I knew. Chico going on and on about doing the right thing. It was so sappy you just knew it was a set-up. It's a Marvel cliche now it's a legitimate shock when someone is not secretly working for the bad guy. Here's to hoping the new director of SHIELD is Honest True forever.



Fortunately that trope is not a center stage event. Though the even does have relevance.

Also, if the new director of SHIELD is Jeffrey Solomon Mace, AKA the Patriot. In the comics he is very Captain America like, even taking up the mantle for a time (I think...). So, it is thankfully highly unlikely he will be a traitor.

[Eldan]

So, my opinion... basically, it started off really good and then went down hard.

Diamondback just didn't work for me. No presence, no threat, stupid motivation (daddy loved you more than me), no plans that seemed to make much sense. And Shades was a joke. Maybe Mariah Black could have saved it, but she didn't do enough, either.

[Morph Bark]

I'm roughly halfway through the series. I thought Luke Cage was a decent character, a bit bland sometimes, but his dedication to being on the straight and narrow to the extreme while still hiding from his past does create interesting moments. Pops was cool in the small doses he came in. Cottonmouth was terrible until the episode where they revealed his backstory and his personality shifted a bit. He was too cardboard villain-like prior to that. He stayed that way, but at least not as kill-happy. I liked the moments where he laughs though. It's not hammy or your typical cartoon villain evil laugh, and it comes at just the right times. Overall, so far, I think it's especially Misty Knight and Claire Temple that are well-written, flaws and undergoing changes and all.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I am now thoroughly of the opinion that the primary problem of this series is the lackluster villains. When I say lackluster, I mean that as a villain, they just weren't very interesting. As characters in a drama, they were OK, but as villains they were little more than a side-show, even when they were centre stage.

Compare to the villains in the other two series and you're really left totally underwhelmed by them. They just weren't that compelling, and in a drawn out format like that used on Netflix binge-series, the villains have to be every bit as interesting as the protagonist or else the show just drags interminably towards an unsatisfying conclusion.

[Bowerbird]

Personally I actually quite liked all the villains except Diamondback. He had this whole well-connected mastermind vibe going, then he turns up and he's just a monologuing psychopath, who somehow lucked his way into getting a handful of super-guns. He didn't even seem to fit well with the flashbacks, where he was shown to at least be able to hide that he was a psycho. The entire time my money was on Diamondback being Luke's friend Squabbles from prison, since they never show what happens to him on-screen. Don't get me wrong though, the actor they had for Diamondback was great, he's really good at playing the unhinged, menacing bad guy. I get the feeling that the only reason Diamondback came across as competent was he at least had the sense to hire Shades, who was my actual favourite through the whole thing, he actually knew what he was doing, despite the fact that he looked kind of like an evil Adam Sandler. The reveal of Cottonmouth's backstory, as well as the rise/fall of Mariah, personally, worked for me, Diamondback was just a bit too much of a tone shift though.

Personally I thought Luke Cage was pretty good, I need to rewatch Jessica Jones, I got partway through and the tone of it wasn't gelling with me, really enjoyed both seasons of Daredevil, though in Season 2 kept wishing they'd dispense with the ninja stuff and just get back to the Punisher already.

[Dienekes]

My thoughts on villains I admit I still have 2 episodes to go


The villains were flawed by the limitations put on them by being a part of the Luke Cage show.

Cottonmouth, the pianist who was forced to be a crime lord, and his cousin who had to balance her political career and desires for Harlem with criminal element she is forced to work with to get things done. Those are both really neat characters. I'd watch a show focused on them and how their choices change based on their pride, their inner goodness that just wants to walk away, and their goals for the future.

Cottonmouth especially seemed very effected by the accidental killing of Pops. And his exclamation that "There are supposed to be rules." help set up what kind of a crime lord he both is and is trying to be. While Mariah gets a few comments about not wanting to be involved but just gets dragged in deeper.

There's a show there. Especially one where complications force them to seek the aid of the unhinged but intelligent Diamondback.

But we only really see this at Pops death and in Cottonmouths last episode. The show focuses on Cage, his problems with Harlem and his backstory. Then the third act villain is randomly his brother. And the villains don't really match him.

Really Cottonmouth was never a threat to Luke. He was never evil enough or smart enough to handle the unbreakable man. The worst he did was send his guys to do some extortion.

Maria never really challenges Luke directly either. Now, they could have made her a decent Lex Luther style foil to Cage. An opponent that Luke can't directly fight with his fists. One who challenges his ideals and motivations and wits. What if her illegal antics are actually helping Harlem? What is Luke to do if stopping her means hurting the citizens he's trying to protect? But really she just sort of became a tangential opponent. Overshadowed first by Cornell then by Diamondback.

Then Diamondback shows up. And I admit I like the actor, he's Dunn Pursley from Boardwalk Empire. But his big motivation so far is that he's Luke's brother. Now, for a comic book show the episode with Luke trapped in Harlem's Paradise was good. But for the villains it was pretty dumb. And Shades is there to point out why it's dumb. Which was amusing, but as a character he just falls flat to me. His motivation is just he's an evil brother. And while he is certainly crazy and dangerous nothing he's done so far have really capitalized on that.

Like, a crazy villain to be seen as a legitimate threat should make up for his lack of logic with being unpredictable and keeping the hero on edge. But he's not. His actions are either incredibly predictable or fall back on explained tech he just happens to have because the writers decided to give him that tech as a crutch to make him a threat to Luke without the need to make the actual character do anything unique or original.

Which all sounds like I'm really bagging on the show. But I actually enjoy it. Not as much as DD or JJ, but still I find it fun.

I have a feeling I'd like it more if my tastes were more in line with the show thought. I've heard a lot about how the musical selection is perfect and so good. And I can recognize that the selection fits the themes and style of the show. But, I pretty much hate rap, hip ho, and pop music. So yeah, I kinda just ignore the songs or am mildly annoyed by the music when it takes center focus.

[Ping Pong Along]

I guess I'm the only one that liked Diamondback? I fully admit that the whole brother reveal could have been done better, but the actor's performance was so captivating. He was skilled, erratic, and well connected, but more than anything, delightfully over the top. For all of the other characters, they tried to downplay the blacksploitation angle, for him they fully embraced it. As for his suit at the end, it definitely looked silly, but I felt it fit the character.

I didn't care for Cottonmouth as much. His best episode was definitely his last one. He was a far more interesting character in the flashbacks. His role in the series felt like something I had seen countless times before in other shows. People have said that they killed him off too soon, but I think the way they played that was absolutely perfect. It was a very Game of Thrones kind of thing of getting to where you just start liking a character, only to brutally murder them. And it was so incredibly motivated by Mariah. And it elevated her character to something more. That was an excellent bit of writing.

Speaking of Mariah, what a fantastic performance. I quite liked her character arc too. From the first episode, she was morally questionable and that was such an interesting place to dive into. Up until this point, I don't think I've seen political corruption told in an organic way. And her realization of who she really is serves to make her far more corrupt.

I really enjoyed the series. I thought it started out rather rough. The first two episodes really should have been combined into one episode. It really played out more like an hour and a half pilot. I appreciate all of the cultural references, even realizing that probably 90% of them went right over my head. I loved how it connected to the greater MCU. Bootlegs of the alien invasion from the Avengers was such a brilliant idea. I enjoyed its relevancy with the shot up hoodies. There was a lot to love.

Comparing it to the other Netflix shows is difficult because they're all trying to do something different. I'd say it ties with JJ for first, though DD isn't far behind.

[gomipile]

I guess I'm the only one that liked Diamondback? I fully admit that the whole brother reveal could have been done better, but the actor's performance was so captivating. He was skilled, erratic, and well connected, but more than anything, delightfully over the top. For all of the other characters, they tried to downplay the blacksploitation angle, for him they fully embraced it. As for his suit at the end, it definitely looked silly, but I felt it fit the character.

I didn't care for Cottonmouth as much. His best episode was definitely his last one. He was a far more interesting character in the flashbacks. His role in the series felt like something I had seen countless times before in other shows. People have said that they killed him off too soon, but I think the way they played that was absolutely perfect. It was a very Game of Thrones kind of thing of getting to where you just start liking a character, only to brutally murder them. And it was so incredibly motivated by Mariah. And it elevated her character to something more. That was an excellent bit of writing.

Speaking of Mariah, what a fantastic performance. I quite liked her character arc too. From the first episode, she was morally questionable and that was such an interesting place to dive into. Up until this point, I don't think I've seen political corruption told in an organic way. And her realization of who she really is serves to make her far more corrupt.

I really enjoyed the series. I thought it started out rather rough. The first two episodes really should have been combined into one episode. It really played out more like an hour and a half pilot. I appreciate all of the cultural references, even realizing that probably 90% of them went right over my head. I loved how it connected to the greater MCU. Bootlegs of the alien invasion from the Avengers was such a brilliant idea. I enjoyed its relevancy with the shot up hoodies. There was a lot to love.

Comparing it to the other Netflix shows is difficult because they're all trying to do something different. I'd say it ties with JJ for first, though DD isn't far behind.


I appreciated Diamondback as an over-the-top homage to villains in both comic books and exploitation/grindhouse films of the 20th century. However, he did feel out of place compared to the other antagonists of Marvel's Netflix shows. Some moments of Wilson Fisk and Nobu were fairly melodramatic, but Diamondback was a solid 90%-110% on the ridiculousness meter for most of his screen time. He felt more like he belonged in a Wayans family movie like I'm Gonna Git You Sucka.

So... I liked Diamondback, but I also get that he doesn't really fit in the Netflix MCU.

Then again, it takes all kinds, and this does increase the diversity of villain types we've seen in this corner of the MCU. However, I think if I'm going with that logic then one is enough for now.

[Erys]

I guess I'm the only one that liked Diamondback? I fully admit that the whole brother reveal could have been done better, but the actor's performance was so captivating. He was skilled, erratic, and well connected, but more than anything, delightfully over the top. For all of the other characters, they tried to downplay the blacksploitation angle, for him they fully embraced it. As for his suit at the end, it definitely looked silly, but I felt it fit the character.

I didn't care for Cottonmouth as much. His best episode was definitely his last one. He was a far more interesting character in the flashbacks. His role in the series felt like something I had seen countless times before in other shows. People have said that they killed him off too soon, but I think the way they played that was absolutely perfect. It was a very Game of Thrones kind of thing of getting to where you just start liking a character, only to brutally murder them. And it was so incredibly motivated by Mariah. And it elevated her character to something more. That was an excellent bit of writing.

Speaking of Mariah, what a fantastic performance. I quite liked her character arc too. From the first episode, she was morally questionable and that was such an interesting place to dive into. Up until this point, I don't think I've seen political corruption told in an organic way. And her realization of who she really is serves to make her far more corrupt.

I really enjoyed the series. I thought it started out rather rough. The first two episodes really should have been combined into one episode. It really played out more like an hour and a half pilot. I appreciate all of the cultural references, even realizing that probably 90% of them went right over my head. I loved how it connected to the greater MCU. Bootlegs of the alien invasion from the Avengers was such a brilliant idea. I enjoyed its relevancy with the shot up hoodies. There was a lot to love.

Comparing it to the other Netflix shows is difficult because they're all trying to do something different. I'd say it ties with JJ for first, though DD isn't far behind.

Your not alone. I'm with you about 97.8% here.

Though I even dug the reveal. I was like, o.0! damn...

[Bowerbird]

I guess I'm the only one that liked Diamondback? I fully admit that the whole brother reveal could have been done better, but the actor's performance was so captivating. He was skilled, erratic, and well connected, but more than anything, delightfully over the top. For all of the other characters, they tried to downplay the blacksploitation angle, for him they fully embraced it. As for his suit at the end, it definitely looked silly, but I felt it fit the character.

I didn't care for Cottonmouth as much. His best episode was definitely his last one. He was a far more interesting character in the flashbacks. His role in the series felt like something I had seen countless times before in other shows. People have said that they killed him off too soon, but I think the way they played that was absolutely perfect. It was a very Game of Thrones kind of thing of getting to where you just start liking a character, only to brutally murder them. And it was so incredibly motivated by Mariah. And it elevated her character to something more. That was an excellent bit of writing.

Speaking of Mariah, what a fantastic performance. I quite liked her character arc too. From the first episode, she was morally questionable and that was such an interesting place to dive into. Up until this point, I don't think I've seen political corruption told in an organic way. And her realization of who she really is serves to make her far more corrupt.

I really enjoyed the series. I thought it started out rather rough. The first two episodes really should have been combined into one episode. It really played out more like an hour and a half pilot. I appreciate all of the cultural references, even realizing that probably 90% of them went right over my head. I loved how it connected to the greater MCU. Bootlegs of the alien invasion from the Avengers was such a brilliant idea. I enjoyed its relevancy with the shot up hoodies. There was a lot to love.

Comparing it to the other Netflix shows is difficult because they're all trying to do something different. I'd say it ties with JJ for first, though DD isn't far behind.

Oh don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the heck out of his performance, I just felt he was a bit out of left field from a broader story and theme perspective. As I think I mentioned, that actor does unhinged and menacing very well, though admittedly I only remember him from this and Boardwalk Empire.

[Pex]

I do wonder if they are going to give Misty her own series like they are with Punisher (she still needs to get her mechanical arm). I also wonder how Luke is going to go from the end of this season to the Defenders given that Luke is being shipped off to Georgia while the rest of the Defenders-to-be are still in New York. I also like Claire taking martial arts classes to set up for Iron Fist.

Bobby Fish found the file that proves his innocence, and Claire knows a good lawyer. Quite the daredevil I hear.

[Ping Pong Along]

Oh don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the heck out of his performance, I just felt he was a bit out of left field from a broader story and theme perspective. As I think I mentioned, that actor does unhinged and menacing very well, though admittedly I only remember him from this and Boardwalk Empire.

I was more replying to people earlier in the thread who generally disliked Diamondback.

Something else I was thinking about from earlier in the thread was how much Luke Cage as a character lines up with Captain America. I agree with this point, but I think there's one major difference between the two that serves to make this more of a positive point than when it was originally brought up. We get to see the positive effects of Luke Cage within Harlem. By the end the community embraces him and the example he sets. We've never gotten anything along these lines for Captain America within the MCU, at least not in the present day.

[Giggling Ghast]

Reflections on Cottonmouth vs. Diamondback:

Prior to watching the series, my fear was that they wouldn't actually present a real threat to Cage, as all the trailers I saw had generic goons emptying their guns at Luke while he stood back and made quips.

Cottonmouth did not allay that fear. Oh, his actor did a great job and he got some good development, but he wasn't even remotely a threat to Cage. He wasn't even particularly a threat to Harlem; he's just a minor crime lord, with the emphasis on "minor." So I felt like the first half of this series was just biding time until a better villain could take over.

Diamondback was also well-paid, though he got shirked a little in the character-building and motivations department. Still, he had the skills and resources to actually pose some danger to Luke, plus a personal (if completely insane) grudge against him. And he was even a little scary.

Anyhow, still quite enjoyed the series. Really great performance from the lead; as far as I'm concerned, that dude is Luke Cage. And I thought it was touching and cool how Harlem rallied around him.

I'd put it behind Season 1 of Daredevil and Jessica Jones but ahead of Season 2 of Daredevil.

I'll mention one other nitpick:

This was my first real exposure to Misty Knight. I heard some say Misty Knight should get a series, but I have to confess, she's kind of useless.

Claire Templs, on the other hand, is really coming into her own. I'm glad she'll be back for Iron Fist.

[gomipile]

You know, if Marvel wants to do some comic book style over the top stuff, I think they should seriously consider a Squirrel Girl series on Netflix.

I would watch the heck out of that.

No, I didn't forget to use blue text, I'm totally serious.

[Giggling Ghast]

Personally, I think they should do a Squirrel Girl episode on Agents of Shield, just for laughs.

[Reddish Mage]

Personally, I think they should do a Squirrel Girl episode on Agents of Shield, just for laughs.

It wouldn't fit Netflix...but this is just what Agent of SHIELD needs.

Sadly, I think they are saving Squirrel Girl for the movies.

[DiscipleofBob]

You know, if Marvel wants to do some comic book style over the top stuff, I think they should seriously consider a Squirrel Girl series on Netflix.

I would watch the heck out of that.

No, I didn't forget to use blue text, I'm totally serious.

Courtesy of Cracked...

http://i.imgur.com/1rmIH5o.jpg

[Giggling Ghast]

I didn't realize this until I looked her up on IMDB, but Alfre Woodard (the actress who plays Mariah Dillard) is 62. I would have guessed mid-forties at the most.

I guess there's a reason why Shades didn't seem too interested in Cottonmouth's girls. (Compare him to Cottonmouth's goons, who are often eating the eye candy.)

[Pex]

I didn't realize this until I looked her up on IMDB, but Alfre Woodard (the actress who plays Mariah Dillard) is 62. I would have guessed mid-forties at the most.

I guess there's a reason why Shades didn't seem too interested in Cottonmouth's girls. (Compare him to Cottonmouth's goons, who are often eating the eye candy.)

It's not age, it's sophistication. Mariah has class and earns respect. Shades has confidence and style. He knows a phony when he sees one. Still, I don't think Shades was wooing Mariah romantically nor even contemplating it, but she is worthy now that the circumstance is there. For a brief moment I was even happy for him.

[Sholos]

Am I the only one who really has no sympathy for any of the villains? I mean, sure, Cottonmouth was treated poorly as a kid, and that sucks, but that doesn't excuse him in any way for being what he is as an adult. Pop was in the same situation (with even fewer advantages it seems) and he turned towards actually helping the community. I just get really sick of criminals who try to claim they love a place when all they're doing is hurting it. Cottonmouth was despicable and I don't feel one ounce of pity for him. Great character, though.

[Pex]

Am I the only one who really has no sympathy for any of the villains? I mean, sure, Cottonmouth was treated poorly as a kid, and that sucks, but that doesn't excuse him in any way for being what he is as an adult. Pop was in the same situation (with even fewer advantages it seems) and he turned towards actually helping the community. I just get really sick of criminals who try to claim they love a place when all they're doing is hurting it. Cottonmouth was despicable and I don't feel one ounce of pity for him. Great character, though.

You're not supposed to have sympathy for the villains. They're the bad guys! :smallsmile:

Sure, the concept of a sympathetic villain is a thing, but I don't think that's what they were going for. Cottonmouth, Mariah, and Shades, for me, were a lot of fun to watch. I wanted to know what they were doing and why. Diamondback was just a bully for the sake of being a bully, a one-dimensional Team Evil who's only purpose was to present a mortal physical threat to a bullet-proof hero. The show didn't need him. The Trio were doing just fine presenting a conflict for Cage to overcome.

[Bowerbird]

Just realised I forgot to mention one of my favourite things. When Cottonmouth was broke and trying to figure out how to kill Cage he settled on a super-expensive exploding bullet, Mariah is presented with the same problem "Have you tried just drowning him? or maybe poisoning him?" Cottonmouth: "...Nah I'm going to go with the cool explodey bullet thing."

[Giggling Ghast]

I wondered that myself partway through the series. Sure, you can't shoot Luke Cage, but could you poison him?

[Pex]

Just realised I forgot to mention one of my favourite things. When Cottonmouth was broke and trying to figure out how to kill Cage he settled on a super-expensive exploding bullet, Mariah is presented with the same problem "Have you tried just drowning him? or maybe poisoning him?" Cottonmouth: "...Nah I'm going to go with the cool explodey bullet thing."

The irony is he was later drowned and poisoned, so to speak, but as a process of healing him as it is explained his cells would recover from such injuries. Mariah was right to suggest them, but they wouldn't have worked.

[DiscipleofBob]

The irony is he was later drowned and poisoned, so to speak, but as a process of healing him as it is explained his cells would recover from such injuries. Mariah was right to suggest them, but they wouldn't have worked.

Not really...
The 'treatment' they use is much more advanced than simply 'drowning' and 'poisoning' him. They had to submerge him in a specific acid for his skin cells to *hopefully* become pliable enough to remove the bullet fragments. Cage is even holed up to a breathing apparatus.

Poisoning is a toss up due to his advanced physiology, but if they can somehow get Luke Cage in a situation where he would drown, he would probably die. The problem is how. He could break out of cement shoes, and even if you found a container or restraints tough enough to keep him contained, you have to somehow incapacitate him or trap him inside. That's easier said than done.

[Leewei]

The bad guys didn't know this definitively, but based on what we saw, yes. Venoms, which require injection, would not work. Poison gases such as carbon monoxide could hurt him. Jessica Jones herself nearly killed him with a point-blank shotgun blast to the chin / throat, for that matter, so he can be shot dead, just not with the guns being used.

Something occurred to me while watching Luke Cage. The roles were pretty much all minorities. Even the "white" characters - Rafael Scarfe and Shades Alvarez - were of Hispanic origin. The one exception I can think of was Dr. Burstein, who lived far away from Harlem. This is a pretty remarkable inversion of whitewashing for which Hollywood is criticized.

[Giggling Ghast]

The evil head prison guard was also white.

[Eldan]

But the prison was, again, not in Harlem.

[Maelstrom]

The irony is he was later drowned and poisoned, so to speak, but as a process of healing him as it is explained his cells would recover from such injuries. Mariah was right to suggest them, but they wouldn't have worked.

They did have to put a respirator on him, though. He might actually drown...

[dropbear8mybaby]

Jessica Jones herself nearly killed him with a point-blank shotgun blast to the chin / throat, for that matter, so he can be shot dead, just not with the guns being used.

I'm guessing that was primarily due to the brain trauma from the concussive wave of a shotgun blast at point-blank range.

[Red Fel]

I'm guessing that was primarily due to the brain trauma from the concussive wave of a shotgun blast at point-blank range.

This. It's not that the blast damaged him on the surface. The shells more or less bounced right off. But the massive impact did lead to serious inflammation, because it's not so much that he's impervious to damage as his skin and muscle are apparently heal damage faster than it can be inflicted. Which means that if you can bypass that protective outer shell... Well, I'll let Samuel L. Jackson explain it:

Your bones don't break, mine do. That's clear. Your cells react to bacteria and viruses differently than mine. You don't get sick, I do. That's also clear. But for some reason, you and I react the exact same way to water. We swallow it too fast, we choke. We get some in our lungs, we drown.
That's basically how it reads. His body, at least on the surface, is nigh-indestructible. But underneath that, organs still get inflamed, air needs to be breathed, blood needs to circulate. Smash him with a hammer, the hammer breaks on the skin, but smash him in the right place and hard enough, you can damage and inflame what's underneath.

Maybe. If plot requires.

[Leewei]

I'm guessing that was primarily due to the brain trauma from the concussive wave of a shotgun blast at point-blank range.

Very true, but not relevant. A gun was used, and Cage would have died without Claire's inspired medical assistance.

A bad guy with a shotgun at point blank range could do something similar to Cage. The idea of Cage's total invulnerability is what protects him from this -- bad guys don't know the limits of his bulletproof skin, and assume nothing short of a Judas bullet will work.

[GloatingSwine]

A bad guy with a shotgun at point blank range could do something similar to Cage.

They could try. Jessica was able to do it because she's as or nearly as strong as Luke and he was able to resist mind control long enough to allow her the opportunity.

[Leewei]

They could try. Jessica was able to do it because she's as or nearly as strong as Luke and he was able to resist mind control long enough to allow her the opportunity.

Sure, those seeking to kill him would need to somehow get the drop on him. They'd be very willing to try, and very capable of succeeding. Our hero does have to sleep from time to time, and does not apparently have extraordinary senses or reflexes.

[BRC]

They could try. Jessica was able to do it because she's as or nearly as strong as Luke and he was able to resist mind control long enough to allow her the opportunity.
I'm reasonably sure Jessica is actually much stronger than Luke (She can Hulkjump after all), he's a lot more durable. She just doesn't show off her strength nearly as much (With the obvious exception of the aformentioned hulkjumping), because the tone of her show had far fewer action scenes/moments where there was a reason to use her full strength.

But now we're heading down a road of deathbattle-esque pseudophysics.

As far as Luke's weaknesses, basically anything that didn't rely on breaking the skin. He IS more resistant to concussion than an ordinary person, since bullets just bounce off him with no real impact (Compare to somebody being shot in a bulletproof vest. Even if the bullet doesn't penetrate the vest, you get knocked down, winded, and probably have cracked ribs), so you would have to hit him very hard to do any sort of blunt physical trauma. So, his "Unbreakable Skin" does more than simply not break. Either his internals are especially resilient, or it does something with the kinetic force of the bullet to let him shrug off blows. Things with a wider impact area, like Diamondback's Robot-Fists, DO seem to have an impact. A dozen or so hits from Diamondback had him visibly hurting in a way that all the bullets in Crispus Attics didn't.

We don't have any evidence that he's resistant to poison, drowning, or electrocution ( I don't think anybody uses a taser on him). Fire probably wouldn't do much to hurt him, but smoke inhalation might.

[Knaight]

As far as Luke's weaknesses, basically anything that didn't rely on breaking the skin. He IS more resistant to concussion than an ordinary person, since bullets just bounce off him with no real impact (Compare to somebody being shot in a bulletproof vest. Even if the bullet doesn't penetrate the vest, you get knocked down, winded, and probably have cracked ribs), so you would have to hit him very hard to do any sort of blunt physical trauma. So, his "Unbreakable Skin" does more than simply not break. Either his internals are especially resilient, or it does something with the kinetic force of the bullet to let him shrug off blows. Things with a wider impact area, like Diamondback's Robot-Fists, DO seem to have an impact. A dozen or so hits from Diamondback had him visibly hurting in a way that all the bullets in Crispus Attics didn't.

That's not necessarily a wider impact area thing - for all the damage bullets do they really do have pretty low kinetic energy values and even lower momentum values compared to many other things that cause serious injury, and we've seen Luke weather some of those pretty well (walking in front of a car to stop it comes to mind).

[BRC]

That's not necessarily a wider impact area thing - for all the damage bullets do they really do have pretty low kinetic energy values and even lower momentum values compared to many other things that cause serious injury, and we've seen Luke weather some of those pretty well (walking in front of a car to stop it comes to mind).

The Car knocked him down, but he was otherwise fine, IIRC.

So, the three physical things that have had some impact on him are

1) Point blank shotgun blast under the chin. (Serious medical problems due to concussion)

2) A car crashing into him (Knocked him down, he felt it, but no serious injuries)

3) Diamondback's Final Boss Megafists, which seemed to hit him a bit harder than a normal punch hitting a normal person.

[Leewei]

Either his internals are especially resilient, or it does something with the kinetic force of the bullet to let him shrug off blows.

According to Claire, his internal "soft tissues" are not soft at all (the Judas rounds merely left a few problematic pieces of shrapnel, rather than shredding him from the inside out), and his ability to heal is greatly augmented (complete recovery from a gunshot wound after only a few hours).

[gomipile]

A typical high base (not magnum) 12 gauge hunting load should be a good baseline for the most powerful that shot was likely to have been. Such a load is typically 1.25 ounces of shot with a muzzle velocity around 1330 feet per second. That's with a hunting barrel, 26 inches or a bit longer. The shotgun used in the show was shorter, probably with an 18 inch barrel.

1.25 ounces is a bit less than 547 grains.

A 600 grain cast lead bullet can be loaded to 1400+ feet per second muzzle velocity in 500S&W Magnum fired out of an 8 inch barrel. The revolvers meeting those specs are large and heavy, but still quite easy to carry with a proper holster, compared to a shotgun.

50 BMG M33 Ball ammunition out of a Barrett target rifle with a 29 inch barrel gives a muzzle velocity of 2750 feet per second to its 661 grain projectile. Velocity is still over 2300 feet per second at 300 yards.

If the shotgun rung his bell that badly, these should give a villain at least enough time to try to drown him.

Creative use of mitigating circumstances could allow the writers to establish things like this as credible threats without killing off Luke.

[Leewei]

<Good stuff>

This is why it's a bad idea to get on the wrong side of anyone who understands ballistics.

[Legato Endless]

This is why it's a bad idea to get on the wrong side of anyone who understands ballistics.

Except Cage lives in a world where I don't think such experts exist. Which is why we see Cottonmouth use a surface to air rocket against a grounded target. Moreover, based on the glowing red lock-on, someone decided to stick an advanced scanner capable of tracking and identifing human ambient body heat to an antiquated rocket launcher from the 60s. (A Redeye can track the exhaust of an airplane, not a person)

[Leewei]

This is also a world with Stark Industries, and a world where Chetari invaders assaulted New York on a giant cybernetic space eel.

People have some fairly extreme reasons, and possibly a knack, to modify what we'd consider outdated hardware with weird capabilities.

The bad guys didn't know about his encounter with Jessica Jones. Without that critical piece of information, they just went with bigger and bigger guns. Not very scientific, but believable.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I'm reasonably sure Jessica is actually much stronger than Luke (She can Hulkjump after all), he's a lot more durable. She just doesn't show off her strength nearly as much (With the obvious exception of the aformentioned hulkjumping), because the tone of her show had far fewer action scenes/moments where there was a reason to use her full strength.
It kinda depends on how much thought they've put into all of this. We could debate the minutia presented in each episode of each character over and over but if it turns out that the writers didn't think about any of this, then what we're debating is entirely irrelevant.

Now, assuming that they did put in this effort, I think it will turn out that JJ is much, much stronger than LC and also far more durable (than she's been presented as, not more durable than LC himself) but that her powers are somewhat limited by her willingness to use them. So somehow it's connected to her mind rather than just her body. She can be knocked out for hours by a weak-ass chick with a block of wood but barely be knocked down by being hit by a car. I think as JJ's character grows, she'll start to learn that her strength and flying are mainly limited by her psyche and not her physicality.


According to Claire, his internal "soft tissues" are not soft at all (the Judas rounds merely left a few problematic pieces of shrapnel, rather than shredding him from the inside out), and his ability to heal is greatly augmented (complete recovery from a gunshot wound after only a few hours).
His healing was partly why the bullet fragments were causing damage. They said that it was pushing the shrapnel through the "soft" tissues. But it was also the type of metal from the bullets (Chitauri metal) that was causing a problem. If it had been regular metal, he'd probably have just shat it out eventually :D


Except Cage lives in a world where I don't think such experts exist. Which is why we see Cottonmouth use a surface to air rocket against a grounded target. Moreover, based on the glowing red lock-on, someone decided to stick an advanced scanner capable of tracking and identifing human ambient body heat to an antiquated rocket launcher from the 60s. (A Redeye can track the exhaust of an airplane, not a person)
Yeah, there's definitely something to be said for the level of knowledge and expertise of the enemies. Viewers tend to forget that the people they're watching don't have all the information and so are operating mostly in the dark.

[Giggling Ghast]

Ironically, I think pepper spray (or some other aerosol weapon) might be more effective against Cage than regular guns. Irritating his eyes would at least slow him down.

[Leewei]

Ironically, I think pepper spray (or some other aerosol weapon) might be more effective against Cage than regular guns. Irritating his eyes would at least slow him down.

Should Diamondback return, it'd be hilarious to see Claire take him down this way.