Spells duplicating maneuvers

[AvatarVecna]

Just as the title implies: I'm trying to find out if there's a spell/multiple spells out there that can by RAW duplicate maneuver effects. And I don't mean like, the spell does the same thing as a maneuver by coincidence, I mean it lets you select a maneuver to duplicate with the spell, and you duplicate it. I imagine that a lenient DM might allow maneuvers to be duplicated by Wish/Limited Wish, but since Wish only explicitly replicates spells, and doesn't call out maneuvers, I don't think maneuvers can be duplicated with Wish except via the "other effects" function that's purely DM judgement, and I'm looking for something a little more specific than that. For instance, if there's text indicating that maneuvers are treated as spells of the same level for some/all purposes, that could help.

The particular maneuver I'm looking at replicating is the "Aura Of Chaos" stance, for exactly the reasons you're expecting. Not to worry, this is purely theoretical.

[Segev]

The spell heroics, in the Spell Compendium (not to be confused with heroism in the PHB) allows the beneficiary to select any one fighter feat which he has for the duration of the spell. Pick up "Martial Training" or whatever the feat is that lets you choose a maneuver.

[digiman619]

He'd Need the Martial Stance feat, but it's only selectable if he know a maneuver, so unless it grants 2 feats, he'd need to waste one on Martial Study first. However, Aura of Chaos is a 6th level maneuver, so to pick it you need to know 2 other Devoted Spirit maneuvers; So realistically speaking, unless heroism grants 3 feats, that's kind of a no go.

[Segev]

Ah, I missed which maneuver he wanted.

You'll need 3 castings of the spell to achieve that. And to meet the initiator level, as the spell won't grant it to you. Since 6th level maneuvers require 11th level initiators, you'll have a hard time doing that without a fair number of initiator class levels. (Initiator levels do count 1/2 for your non-initiator-class levels, but you'd have to be level 22 to qualify as an 11th level initiator with no initiator class levels!)

[zergling.exe]

Here's a list of books released after ToB:

Cityscape
Complete Champion
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Dragon Magic
Drow of the Underdark
Dungeon Survival Guide
Dungeonscape
Elder Evils
Exemplars of Evil: Deadly Foes to Vex Your Heroes
Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells
Magic Item Conpendium
Monster Manual V
Rules Compendium

Not sure if any of them have relevant information, but they would be the only ones that do. Aside from ToB itself of course.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I can't really think of anything besides Heroics either.

There's also Mirror Move (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a), but that only let's you pick from a specific group of feats, so no use here.*

Doesn't ToB give you the option of creating magic items that let you pick up maneuvers?

* There is the following line in Mirror Move that might be helpful:

The DM may allow mirroring of feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, as long as they are feats with observable physical effects.

If the DM is willing, he may extend it to Martial Study and Martial Stance.

[digiman619]

Doesn't ToB give you the option of creating magic items that let you pick up maneuvers?[/edit]

There are Martial Scripts which function a lot like scrolls, (you need to make a Kn:Martial check of 10 + minimum initiator level, but don't need to be able to initiate otherwise) but RAW they only grant maneuvers, not stances.

[Azoth]

Use the Crown of the White Raven equivalent for Devoted Spirit to pick up the prerequisite manuevers, and then cast Heroics to grab Martial Stance. Now you just need to get IL11.

[digiman619]

Use the Crown of the White Raven equivalent for Devoted Spirit to pick up the prerequisite manuevers, and then cast Heroics to grab Martial Stance. Now you just need to get IL11.

Except it only grants 1 maneuver. So theoretically, if they take the Martial study feat, then craft a Devoted Spirit amulet, then they can heroics up the stance. Still have to get an IL of 11, though...

[Azoth]

Except it only grants 1 maneuver. So theoretically, if they take the Martial study feat, then craft a Devoted Spirit amulet, then they can heroics up the stance. Still have to get an IL of 11, though...

You can wear/stack up to THREE of them. Says so right in the description. So, pay for two, stack them as the same item at no adjusted cost, and call it a day.

[ben-zayb]

Some monsters have racial initiating, right? Ability Rip could work, perhaps with astral seed for permanency

[Inevitability]

Use Shapechange to assume the form of a Greater Doppelganger, then eat a crusader's brain.


Some monsters have racial initiating, right? Ability Rip could work, perhaps with astral seed for permanency

I considered this, but no monsters I could find have martial maneuvers strong enough. At most, there's the Valkyrie, with 10th-level swordsage initiating.

[digiman619]

You can wear/stack up to THREE of them. Says so right in the description. So, pay for two, stack them as the same item at no adjusted cost, and call it a day.

Except you need TWO Devoted Spirit maneuvers to get the stance he wants; it doesn't matter how many maneuvers from other disciplines he does or does not have.

[Azoth]

Except you need TWO Devoted Spirit maneuvers to get the stance he wants; it doesn't matter how many maneuvers from other disciplines he does or does not have.

You can have multiple from the same discipline. They can be any of the three grades of the items. You just can't wear more than three total.

So again! Pay for TWO as the same item (NO ADJUSTED COST), pick any two devoted spirit manuevers that don't have prereqs aside IL that you qualify for, and then cast Heroics. Boom! For the duration of Heroics gain Aura of Chaos! Just that simple!

The only tricky part is gaining IL 11. Easiest way to do that without becoming an initiator is becoming a Dusk Giant or Barghest and gobbling down some called or bought creatures. It is a temporary solution and frowned upon by some, but technically works.

[digiman619]

You can have multiple from the same discipline. They can be any of the three grades of the items. You just can't wear more than three total.

So again! Pay for TWO as the same item (NO ADJUSTED COST), pick any two devoted spirit manuevers that don't have prereqs aside IL that you qualify for, and then cast Heroics. Boom! For the duration of Heroics gain Aura of Chaos! Just that simple!

The only tricky part is gaining IL 11. Easiest way to do that without becoming an initiator is becoming a Dusk Giant or Barghest and gobbling down some called or bought creatures. It is a temporary solution and frowned upon by some, but technically works.

RAW, the Devoted Spirit one uses the amulet slot, and I don't know of any item that lets you wear 2 amulets at the same time.

[Azoth]

Okay, that is where our breakdown in communication has occurred. When I said "stack them", I meant it as combine them, using the Combining Existing Item's rules.

I am away from book right now, but I could have sworn that in the item's description it mentioned combining multiple of them into one item. I think the example was with the different grades of the Crown of the White Raven to make one crown that held three manuevers.

[Crake]

Okay, that is where our breakdown in communication has occurred. When I said "stack them", I meant it as combine them, using the Combining Existing Item's rules.

I am away from book right now, but I could have sworn that in the item's description it mentioned combining multiple of them into one item. I think the example was with the different grades of the Crown of the White Raven to make one crown that held three manuevers.

Whether you have one item or two items is really irrelevant to the discussion, the main problem at this point is getting the appropriate initiator level to make this happen. Getting to level 19 and having a bard with song of the heart use inspire greatness on you would get your HD to 22, which would give you an IL level of 11, at which point you could cast heroics and get martial stance for aura of chaos? What level do you want this done by though? Because level 19 is pretty high up there (you can just get the bard as a cohort)

[Telok]

In the MIC there are rules for combining magic items (I think there are some in the DMG too) that I recall using. You can add an item's effect into another item for 150% of the normal cost. Since the least expensive maneuver magic item is 3000 that gives a price of 7500 for an item with two maneuvers.

I also recall people saying that all PrCs give full initiator levels. It makes no sense to me that something like ur-priest gives initator levels, but I've seen it claimed.

[Azoth]

Just Polymorph into a Dusk Giant. Their ability Canibalize which allows it to increase its own HD by consuming other creatures. For every 5HD of sentient(Int 3+) living creatures or 20HD of non-sentient living creatures it consumes, it gains 1HD. These HD give it +1 IL for every 10-40HD of creatures consumed. Chickens are cheap.

[zergling.exe]

In the MIC there are rules for combining magic items (I think there are some in the DMG too) that I recall using. You can add an item's effect into another item for 150% of the normal cost. Since the least expensive maneuver magic item is 3000 that gives a price of 7500 for an item with two maneuvers.

I also recall people saying that all PrCs give full initiator levels. It makes no sense to me that something like ur-priest gives initator levels, but I've seen it claimed.

The claims stems from this text on page 39:
Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details.
However it is likely meant that the prestige classes IN ToB grant full initiating (unless they specifiy otherwise), while others give half (as non-initiators), but it is never specified. Bolded says its not a hard and fast rule.

There's also the fact that if you don't have any levels in martial adept classes, you would be adding it to null, and thus gain no initiator level benefit. Which is strangely never addressed.

[InvisibleBison]

There's also the fact that if you don't have any levels in martial adept classes, you would be adding it to null, and thus gain no initiator level benefit. Which is strangely never addressed.

No, all class levels grant initiator level. Martial adept classes grant 1 IL/level, and non-martial adept classes grant 1/2 IL/level. ToB, p. 39.

[zergling.exe]

No, all class levels grant initiator level. Martial adept classes grant 1 IL/level, and non-martial adept classes grant 1/2 IL/level. ToB, p. 39.

Read my quote again. You add prestige class levels to your martial adept level. There are 3 martial adept classes, so if you don't have any levels in those, you have a null value for martial adept levels. Thus, prestige classes give no benefit to those without crusader, swordsage or warblade levels by RAW.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can have multiple from the same discipline. They can be any of the three grades of the items. You just can't wear more than three total.

So again! Pay for TWO as the same item (NO ADJUSTED COST), pick any two devoted spirit manuevers that don't have prereqs aside IL that you qualify for, and then cast Heroics. Boom! For the duration of Heroics gain Aura of Chaos! Just that simple!

The only tricky part is gaining IL 11. Easiest way to do that without becoming an initiator is becoming a Dusk Giant or Barghest and gobbling down some called or bought creatures. It is a temporary solution and frowned upon by some, but technically works.You can also contract lycanthropy, gain a ton of HD from the animal form to increase your IL, nab your maneuvers and stances, and then cure the lycanthropy. Remember, according to ToB's RAW, you only need to qualify for a maneuver or stance when you first acquire it; I think it's a loophole you can exploit here.


There's also the fact that if you don't have any levels in martial adept classes, you would be adding it to null, and thus gain no initiator level benefit. Which is strangely never addressed.Unless it's as I've said before with Tashalatora, and 0+X=X, so there is no issue to address.

[zergling.exe]

Unless it's as I've said before with Tashalatora, and 0+X=X, so there is no issue to address.

If you do not have levels in a class that value is null, not 0. Otherwise everyone is level 0 in every class and always takes multiclass penalties unless they are single classed in their favored class. This would also allow anyone to cast a spell from any magic item without a UMD check.

[Cerefel]

If you do not have levels in a class that value is null, not 0. Otherwise everyone is level 0 in every class and always takes multiclass penalties unless they are single classed in their favored class. This would also allow anyone to cast a spell from any magic item without a UMD check.

Pretty sure there aren't any rules defining the difference between 0 class levels and NULL class levels. All that's really mentioned is the presence or absence of class levels which doesn't specify.

In short, your statements have no basis by RAW