PDA

View Full Version : Why Do I Like Drow So Much



Bartmanhomer
2016-09-30, 06:58 PM
Here's my reason why I like Drow so much:

1. Drow are attractive and wonderful.

2. Drow are fun to play with.

3. Drow are great characters (Yes I know most Drow are evil but I prefer to play a redeemed or reformed Drow.)

Those are my reasons. :smile:

Anderlith
2016-09-30, 10:36 PM
Con, Drow are unable to grow magnificent beards.
Con, Drow are far too large tall-wise to fit into normal chambers & dwellings
Con, Drow traditionally wield small skinny weapons better suited to be toothpicks instead of a sensible maul or warhammer.
Con, Drow lack the honor of a Clan, either being villainous or honorless exiles
Con, Drow do not get buried in the stone of the mountain they call home
Con, Drow do not swear a blood oath to their ancestors to kill the greenskin scourge.

I stated above but this clearly deserves a side note. You called drow beautiful but between their knife ears & unhealthy, skinny, non-robust bodies they are pretty malformed...


Sorry but they just don't have much going for them.

Tanarii
2016-09-30, 11:09 PM
Con, drizzt

Kitten Champion
2016-10-01, 01:32 AM
They kind of get repetitive. There's the Evil society of Evil Evilness which is undermined by all the inevitable betrayal and mustache twirling, or those remarkable individuals who go rogue that inevitably face constant prejudice of surface worlders who can't see they obviously possess the beautiful soul of a poet and the heart of a champion if they just gave them the benefit of a doubt.

Sure, you can tell stories outside that, but I find their particular box kind of underwhelming.

Telesto
2016-10-01, 01:34 AM
My own history and current system for drow is the following:

1. Drow and brown skinned elves are enslaved by Elves
2. A small band of Drow escape and set fire to the village they were in, freeing the other slaves and setting sail.
3. They return and free the enslaved.
4. Drow follow powerful magic and become enslaved in their own caste system.
5. The Elves seek to enslave the Drow again leading to a bloody war that lasts decades, ultimately the Drow escape to the north, and seek refuge among the Dwarves, who heartily grant them a safehaven in the old Dwarven tunnel complexes. The Drow move into the Underdark, the Elves give chase but cannot scale the cliffs defended by Dwarves. A few war atrocities later and the Elves end up with their own section in a book of grudges. The Elves, defeated, return home to enslave the Wild Elves.
6. The Drow seek to avoid slavery, and struggle to survive in the Underdark.
7. The Drow bargain with the Illithids, offering their service and a few lives monthly to survive the perils of the Underdark. Thus the Drow are, again, enslaved.
8. Lolth frees the Drow, many say she is the reincarnation of the Drow, Miliara, who brought them out of their first enslavement.
9. The Drow are enslaved by themselves.
10. A few Drow begin to defy the caste system and fight against it. Ultimately they end up winning and the drow become something more chaotic neutral overall.
11. Every generation the Drow revolt against their own, taking it more evil, and more good, over and over. Ultimately war within the drow ends and the culture just gradually swings one way then the other each generation. Due to Drow longevity, a little more than half their lives they will enjoy their alignment. The Drow accept this and it just becomes a part of them.

12. The Drow maintain positive relations with the Dwarves, each generation makes sacrifices to the surface for one reason or another. And the Dwarves just think the Drow are really thankful.
13. The Drow incidentally help the Dwarves overcome human rule due to surface raids. Which ultimately leads to the Dwarves leaving goods for the Drow, which give them something to raid during the Dwarven kingdoms period. Despite this strange relation working so well between the groups, both remain moderately in the dark about the others, aside from a few Drow which spend time in the surface and come to understand what actually has happened and what started it all. Those Drow seldom return, because the Dwarves are so generous and good that each Drow, good or evil, ends up loving the Dwarves because regardless of alignment, it's like the Drow is an old friend coming home

weckar
2016-10-01, 01:42 AM
I do have to wonder why this thread was started.

Did anyone ask the question? You probably should have just answered directly.

Are you looking for validation? That's likely to be worse than a 50/50 shot.

Are you looking to start an argument? Yeah, bad idea - always.

Are you just naively telling us your preferences without any real context or reason? This is a forum, not a blog. Learn the difference.

Lalliman
2016-10-01, 02:30 AM
Not to be a jerk, but most of your reasons aren't even reasons. "I like them because they're fun to play" is basically a circular statement, it explains nothing.

Mastikator
2016-10-01, 02:50 AM
I used to like Drow too, not the good rebellious ones, just the evil ones.

These days I prefer humans and maybe monster races (but only if they're given a chance to be nuanced).

Satinavian
2016-10-01, 06:54 AM
I do like them.

But i do like them somewhat toned down, similar to the Drowtales version. A society which grorifies some questionable bahvior and has a serious problem with infighting but still consists of normal, somewhat believable NPCs.

Pronounceable
2016-10-01, 07:57 AM
I don't like drow too much, but they're all right. The stereotype drow is so much better than stereotype orc. What I do like is the implied enthusiasm in the op. Screw the haters, op, keep liking things, this hobby needs more liking.

Tanarii
2016-10-01, 09:20 AM
Are you looking to start an argument? Yeah, bad idea - always.

I'm guessing this. Given the way most people feel about drow, and especially those abominable books written (using the term very loosely) by Salvatore, the likelihood of getting validation a lot less than 50%. So unless he's been living in a cave reading them and fondling the pages, cutting himself off from all exposure to others opinions and actual decent writing ....

You know what, I take it back. That's the only way someone could still be a fan in the modern era anyway. :smallyuk:

Inevitability
2016-10-01, 09:31 AM
1. This may surprise you, but any race can be attractive. I don't even have the slightest clue what 'wonderful' means in this context.

2. As has been said, circular.

3. Great characters? Mechanically they're moderate at best (regardless of edition) and character-wise they tend to fall in the bland 'redeemed evil guy', 'openly evil guy' or 'evil guy pretending to be redeemed evil guy' stereotypes. I know drow can be as developed as any other race, but your previous posts on the subject imply that we're mostly looking at the first category here.

GrayDeath
2016-10-01, 10:41 AM
While I normally do not do this, your opening post neatly sums up why I usually despise Drow:

They are pretty, overtly edgy Elves their players think are interesting because 99% of the PC`s from the race break the racial stereotype (and around 85+% of them in the exact same chaotic good way).


Now CAN Drow be really great Characters? Of course, any race can if one does more than "race stereotype/antystereotype" his character ^^

Fable Wright
2016-10-01, 11:20 AM
I, too, like Drow. The different specialties of their clans, their hunting parties, and the way they carry important lost lore of the giants in their oral traditions give a very distinctive feel to Xen'drik. Playing them as a character offers a chance to play as a fish out of water when exploring the cultures of Khorvaire, and a reason for characters to be inexperienced with and learn about the interesting little fiddly bits of the setting and other PCs' backstories. Plus, they have a habit of turning into buff scorpion men!

They are indeed a 7/10 race on the scale of 'interesting races'.

Âmesang
2016-10-01, 11:26 AM
I've been permitted to play a CE drow in a somewhat loose Storm King's Thunder… mainly 'cause I had an unpainted elf figurine and I was reminded of Against the Giants, so I thought about using that as an inspiration for a simple backstory (Lolth sending out an agent to investigate the giant uprising on Faerűn, seeing if they can be bent to her will like those of the Flanaess a century before).

Granted, I should try and come up with a personality that's more than just "constant, sardonic sneer and sarcastic comments." :smalltongue: Still, Variolus is making for a decently fun "anti" paladin/rogue multiclass "blackguard."

(I think the only thing I don't like about Drizzt is his name and the names of his weapons; his name sounds like a diarrhea sound effect, and there is nothing threatening about a sword named "Twinkle.")

Inevitability
2016-10-01, 12:15 PM
(I think the only thing I don't like about Drizzt is his name and the names of his weapons; his name sounds like a diarrhea sound effect, and there is nothing threatening about a sword named "Twinkle.")

His sword is actually named Twinke? Wow.

On the plus side, that gave me an idea for the most obnoxious magic item ever: an intelligent highly enchanted sword that constantly shouts: "I AM TWINKLE! I AM TWINKLE!".

DataNinja
2016-10-01, 12:28 PM
On the plus side, that gave me an idea for the most obnoxious magic item ever: an intelligent highly enchanted sword that constantly shouts: "I AM TWINKLE! I AM TWINKLE!".

Don't you mean "TWINKLE, TWINKLE! KOOLOO-LIMPAH!"? :smalltongue:

Pugwampy
2016-10-01, 02:32 PM
Here's my reason why I like Drow so much

I am betting Drizzt fan boy . Its good reading .

Lalliman
2016-10-01, 04:01 PM
His sword is actually named Twinke? Wow.
And then you've got Icingdeath, which sounds like it came from a random name generator :smallbiggrin:

Âmesang
2016-10-01, 04:43 PM
On the plus side, that gave me an idea for the most obnoxious magic item ever: an intelligent highly enchanted sword that constantly shouts: "I AM TWINKLE! I AM TWINKLE!".
Please don't. :smalleek: It's bad enough having Excalibur (https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/wallpapers/excalibur.jpg)…

Cluedrew
2016-10-01, 04:52 PM
My favourite thing about Drow is they have dark skin. It is weird but the fact they (in many representations) have much darker skin than almost any other major fantasy race makes me happy for some reason.

My least favourite thing about Drow is how strongly they follow the race=personality rule. New rule, don't do that.

MesiDoomstalker
2016-10-01, 05:04 PM
I believe the general consensus is of one of 2 camps;


Boring Evil McEvilnton or Boring Not-Evil McEvilton
ZOMG DRIZZT IS SO COOL HE'S LIKE THE BEST


I see very few inbetweens and even fewer characters that sit between the two extremes.

Anderlith
2016-10-01, 05:10 PM
For me, I just don't ever end up needing drow. In my world Tieflings used to be elves that worshiped demons. Then they got transformed. So I already have an "edgy" angsty race of elves (elfish) without dragging in the Underdark or Lolth.

Mastikator
2016-10-01, 10:24 PM
1. This may surprise you, but any race can be attractive. I don't even have the slightest clue what 'wonderful' means in this context.

2. As has been said, circular.

3. Great characters? Mechanically they're moderate at best (regardless of edition) and character-wise they tend to fall in the bland 'redeemed evil guy', 'openly evil guy' or 'evil guy pretending to be redeemed evil guy' stereotypes. I know drow can be as developed as any other race, but your previous posts on the subject imply that we're mostly looking at the first category here.

Any race can be attractive but in general and almost all cases elves are prettier than trolls. And drow are often depicted as evil prettier than regular elves which are already minty fresh and cute.

neriractor
2016-10-01, 11:01 PM
Con, Drow are unable to grow magnificent beards.
Con, Drow are far too large tall-wise to fit into normal chambers & dwellings
Con, Drow traditionally wield small skinny weapons better suited to be toothpicks instead of a sensible maul or warhammer.
Con, Drow lack the honor of a Clan, either being villainous or honorless exiles
Con, Drow do not get buried in the stone of the mountain they call home
Con, Drow do not swear a blood oath to their ancestors to kill the greenskin scourge.

I stated above but this clearly deserves a side note. You called drow beautiful but between their knife ears & unhealthy, skinny, non-robust bodies they are pretty malformed...

Sorry but they just don't have much going for them.

THIS, there is already enough baby-faced, obnoxious, pointy-eared, hippies on the surface, why can´t you just strike the earth looking for riches without finding more.

I have to disagree on the greenskins, they kill elves and grow acceptable beards, why all the hate?

Anderlith
2016-10-01, 11:38 PM
^ They either used to be knife-ears (dependent or what lore you use), & they raid & pillage the mines & farmsteds.

Mine Uncle, Stronginthearm, a humble mushroom farmer lives near a greenskin range & has seen no end of trouble.

(Dwarves usually get bonuses to kill orcs & goblins such as in Warhammer FRPG, & 3.5)

galan
2016-10-02, 06:46 AM
I think the interesting thing about Drow is how their goddess is such an hindrance for them. She is chaotic-evil, with a large chaotic side (while they keep trying to make big and complex cities - which would benefit from order). She is also paranoid and turn their strong ones into spider-thingys. She is also creating a huge rift between males and females that makes co-operation quite difficult.

Imagine an underdark where the Drow have a much bigger amount of high-level wizards. they could destroy almost anything else living underground, with the possible exception of Elder Brains (who are not really a problem as long as their mind flayers keep getting killed). As far as I know, the Drow are the only race living in the underdark that have affinity to magic and not psionics, which makes them unpredictable and dangerous. They could stomp almost everything in their way, if they were not so busy killing each other for Lolth's schemes.

Also, I like this article (http://falsemachine.blogspot.co.il/2014/03/black-glass.html)

Kami2awa
2016-10-02, 12:41 PM
I think they're fun to use as they are, each D&D species is interesting in itself, whether you use them as presented or subvert them into something different.

I liked them a lot more when they were first introduced. In early 1e books there is a succession of hints, items and encounters that slowly introduce the Drow as antagonists leading up to full adventures against them. As a mystery, they work pretty well. As far as I know they are an original creation of the game, too - "Drow" is an old word for a troll or goblin-like creature, nothing like D&D's Drow, and while there were dark and light elves in Norse myth their portrayal was very different.

JellyPooga
2016-10-03, 05:38 AM
1) Their skin isn't green enough.

2) They're too skinny.

3) Puny Elfling arms aren't strong like Thogs.

4) They're mean and don't like puppies.

In all seriousness, though, I'm not a fan of Drow, but I think I have more of a problem with Drow Players who expect everyone else at the table to happily play nice alongside them instead of attacking them on sight, despite they themselves attacking other Drow (and assorted other monsters) on sight. :smallconfused:

DragonWitch
2016-10-03, 02:13 PM
Wow, why are so many people being so bitter. We're nerds, people already hate and fear us, surely we should be sticking together even with differences in opinion? :P

Anyway. I really liked Viconia in BG and BG2. Definitely only romance worth doing in my opinion. She's NE and I thought her character was quite genuine and interesting. I personally find drow a bit 2-dimensional and good drow often played boringly, but I love the dark skin/white hair combo, pretty hot. Wouldn't personally play a drow though unless I had a really interesting plot idea. I'm a massive sucker for tieflings but I often just play humans.

Mordar
2016-10-03, 03:09 PM
I think the interesting thing about Drow is how their goddess is such an hindrance for them. She is chaotic-evil, with a large chaotic side (while they keep trying to make big and complex cities - which would benefit from order). She is also paranoid and turn their strong ones into spider-thingys. She is also creating a huge rift between males and females that makes co-operation quite difficult.

Imagine an underdark where the Drow have a much bigger amount of high-level wizards. they could destroy almost anything else living underground, with the possible exception of Elder Brains (who are not really a problem as long as their mind flayers keep getting killed). As far as I know, the Drow are the only race living in the underdark that have affinity to magic and not psionics, which makes them unpredictable and dangerous. They could stomp almost everything in their way, if they were not so busy killing each other for Lolth's schemes.

The contrary-ness appeals to me. I think that somewhere along the line the idea of Drow moved from nemesis-race to innovative dark culture (for the time) to vehicle for the iconoclast Drow Ranger to the vehicle for the now-iconic drow ranger and 9 bijillion copydrow.

Along that path, though, was the idea of a culture devoted to individual power and defiance of limitation...and how in order to survive/thrive, that culture had to adopt some limitations. To have the chance to grow and flourish, individuals had to form houses. In order for the society to continue to exist when surrounded by the horrors of the underdark, houses had to form communities. The individuals (below Matron level, anyway) hate the bindings of the house, and the house hates the bindings of the community, but they are necessary. Layer on top of this a living divinity that represents individual power and freedom without limitation, and with a perverse unpleasant streak lightyears wide.

So, Lloth has her creations and wants to see just how powerful they can become...while also being a fickle and capricious being that does not want to be challenged (usually...except on alternate fifth Tuesdays in February or some other chaotic scheduling) and thus will smite down any creature that dares rise up to her. And, she is a parent. And she has some enemies that she hates, so wants soldier/pawns to fight those enemies.

So, she provides her children with the tools they will need to become powerful. But she applies limits because they need to never be able to challenge her. She wants adoration, fear and obedience...but her children want to be like her, so they aren't inclined to adore or obey...so fear is the key tool. They will toe the line because they fear reprisal, but they will also dare to disobey because they want personal power.

I suspect I'm not doing a good job of describing why I find the idea so interesting and believable within the framework of (A)D&D worlds. The presentation of a culture that should implode under its own weight of treachery, infighting and betrayal brought a great new flavor to the world for me. And it made so much sense to me exactly why the Drow would be such formidable enemies on an individual basis...they are studies in Darwinism and to have reached the point where they are able to wander the underdark or interact with other races means they have survived years of a very inhospitable environment and disposed of rivals along the way. So as a culture, they might not represent a grave threat to a more traditional kingdom (as the Drow will seldom maintain unity in the face of prolonged resistance...eventually they'll start looking for personal gain) they make for bada$$ individuals.

Salvatore's writing - particularly early - did nothing to dissuade my interest, and in fact really heightened it. I think the weight of canon, the expectations of publishers and the drive for income lessened his interest in the topic and diminished the value of his work. I further think fanboyism ran rampant and helped generate some intelligensia-hate, and thus fomented drow-hate...but that's hardly the fault of the chaotic-beings-forced-to-band-together-into-ordered-society-to-survive-while-being-encouraged-to-develop-personal-power-but-not-too-much-power, right? :smallwink:

- M

Komatik
2016-10-03, 04:25 PM
They kind of get repetitive. There's the Evil society of Evil Evilness which is undermined by all the inevitable betrayal and mustache twirling, or those remarkable individuals who go rogue that inevitably face constant prejudice of surface worlders who can't see they obviously possess the beautiful soul of a poet and the heart of a champion if they just gave them the benefit of a doubt.

Sure, you can tell stories outside that, but I find their particular box kind of underwhelming.

Don't they have some kind of merchant god or something in FR that's less abjectly Evil Stupid?

Cluedrew
2016-10-03, 06:14 PM
To Mordar: So basically what your saying it the Drow is a culture locked in an abusive relationship?

(Serious question, never read the old Drow books so I might be missing something obvious.)

Kyberwulf
2016-10-03, 06:51 PM
Ah, the hipster dislike of drow. Automatically compare them to Drizzt.

All races are pretty boring if you..
a. Play them to the max Sterotype.
b. Play them against that Sterotype.

All three of these are pretty petty reasons to hate something.

I like these guys because they can be used as midlevel mooks. You don't have to feel bad about killing them. They are pretty powerful, or would be if they weren't backstabbing each other all the time.

veti
2016-10-03, 06:53 PM
I quite like 1st edition drow.

They're basically unable to function on the surface, except on an overcast night. They find moonlight dazzling, and actual daylight, let alone sunlight, renders them completely helpless.

Their equipment, likewise, starts to deteriorate as soon as it's removed from the Underdark. If exposed to daylight, it decays within a matter of hours.

Oh, and anyone from any PC race will most likely kill them on sight. If the rest of the party doesn't do it, the guards in the first town they come to certainly will.

An all-drow party in an all-underground campaign might be feasible. But a regular PC in a regular, surface-based party? Forget it. You might as well ask to play a dragon or a god or a sapient-but-non-speaking badger. Either way I'm gonna laugh at you.

Kaerou
2016-10-03, 07:59 PM
Aaah, Drows.

I like them for the humour they provide.

http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040322.html

Telesto
2016-10-03, 08:46 PM
Two of my players decided to be drow in a campaign that ended after 1 session (mostly due to everyone's life becoming really hectic immediately after).

One went in search of nightshade on the surface world to make a toxin, the other followed her as protection. They got to the surface and ended up being greeted by dwarves, and the stunty men were very welcoming, and offered them drinks. Distrustful, yet highly outnumbered they entered the bar. There the barkeep gave them dwarven spirits, which got the two lightly buzzed after not much of the drink. They were greated by a band of adventurers who overheard their story, the female drow made gestures to the male drow, which he read as meaning "lets bone", the end result was a couple drow getting dirty on a dirty dwarven bar floor, then roping the rest of the party of pcs into the action.

The dwarves had never seen such a hilarious and amazing sight, and the drow and pcs were brought before the local baron to be rewarded for the grand entertainment, and likely to be painted as well.

The drow never went back home, and had a very enjoyable life among the dwarves. Amd they never had to pay for booze again

Âmesang
2016-10-04, 09:07 AM
Aaah, Drows.

I like them for the humour they provide.

http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040322.html
12˝ years later and I finally get the remark in the second-to-last panel. :smalltongue:

Joe the Rat
2016-10-04, 10:56 AM
Ah, the hipster dislike of drow. Automatically compare them to Drizzt.

All races are pretty boring if you..
a. Play them to the max Sterotype.
b. Play them against that Sterotype.

All three of these are pretty petty reasons to hate something.Yeah. We need more Jarlaxle types.

This is why I like playing dwarven pirates.

Psyren
2016-10-04, 12:03 PM
I like Pathfinder's twist on them. First, removing their LA, and toning them down a bit (e.g. weaker SR) so they still felt like Drow without being OP. Second, Lolth was inaccessible, but they still wanted Drow to be a matriarchal society to make them backwards-compatible with so many of the mechanics that depended on that dichotomy; so Paizo simply made it so that the vast majority of superior Drow (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/drow.html#drowNoble) occur among females.

Mordar
2016-10-04, 12:26 PM
To Mordar: So basically what your saying it the Drow is a culture locked in an abusive relationship?

(Serious question, never read the old Drow books so I might be missing something obvious.)

Wow, I'm kind of afraid to answer this question.

I really think of it as more along the lines of extremely high-pressure evolution...survival of the fittest within that environment, but with the added complexity of both the bottom (50%? 75%) and top (1%? 0.5%?) being culled along the way. The weak ones die off on their own (or with some help...) while the strong flourish...but if you get too strong you may attract the wrong kind of attention and then you have to tap dance uphill on lava to survive.

Lloth only culls those that challenge her and/or wish to replace her...does that help any?

- M

KillianHawkeye
2016-10-04, 01:33 PM
Wow, why are so many people being so bitter. We're nerds, people already hate and fear us, surely we should be sticking together even with differences in opinion? :P

The drow were inside us all along.... :smallwink:

Vizzerdrix
2016-10-04, 02:21 PM
Whatever floats yer boat bud. If I had my way, Id play far more monsterous races than I currently do. As it stands, I have to settle for usi g feats to turn humans into something interesting.


As for the greenskin hate, orcs arent the only green races. What about lizardfolk, or greenscale nagas?

weckar
2016-10-05, 12:30 AM
I think the OP abandoned ship on this one. Not sure what that means.

Tanarii
2016-10-05, 12:13 PM
Ah, the hipster dislike of drow. Automatically compare them to Drizzt.Actually, it's usually the *grognard* dislike of modern drow. Because we saw Salvatore ruin them for everyone.

Edit: Basically, think of me as an old man shaking his fist and saying "get off my lawn, damn drizzt clones!" :smallbiggrin:

Mordar
2016-10-05, 01:48 PM
Ah, the hipster dislike of drow. Automatically compare them to Drizzt.


Actually, it's usually the *grognard* dislike of modern drow. Because we saw Salvatore ruin them for everyone.

Edit: Basically, think of me as an old man shaking his fist and saying "get off my lawn, damn drizzt clones!" :smallbiggrin:

Though beardless even now, I was there for the wonderful days of D1-3 (and Q, but that's a different level altogether...)(ASIDE: G123D123Q1 remains my favorite module thread of all time.) I believe that RA Salvatore brought some additional value to the Drow and the Underdark.

Sure, his iconoclast-turned-icon triggered an insane avalanche of clones and, much like Rocky, had to be prolonged well beyond what he wanted for the character, but those truths do not undo my opinion that Homeland, Exile and Sojurn brought light and focus to the Underdark (okay, pun intended) and provided a wealth of information, plot hooks, thought nuggets and Drowly ideas. Is Salvatore the greatest writer of all time? Of course not. Did he capture the imagination of thousands of gamers? Without doubt. Did he advance the detail of Drow culture and racial backstory? By leaps and bounds. I think along with Gygax and Greenwood that Salvatore has to be considered among the most seminal in the Drow development, and generally in a good way.

Was there specific, non-Drizzt elements (or particularly, post 1995 elements) that contributed to your feeling of ruin?

- M

Segev
2016-10-05, 02:04 PM
Personally, when I play drow, I prefer to go with NE to CN variants on the typical philosophy who view their parties - even of non-drow - as too valuable an asset to backstab and destroy. Out of the safety of the Household, they're the closest thing to sisters-in-arms the drow is going to find. And if they've already let you in, don't burn down your bunk!

Male drow are a little easier to do this with than female drow, because the fact that they're accustomed to subordinating their preferences to those of the women can translate to a self-control to do what the party's majority wants and keep any eeheeheeheevil to a minimum. Note that even CE doesn't have to be Stupid Evil. Just come up with a good reason for loyalty to the party, and they make great Poisonous Friends (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoisonousFriend).

Drow are a great way to do "fish out of water" with an evil twist, as long as you aren't foolish and party-destroying with the "evil twist."

Tanarii
2016-10-05, 02:42 PM
Is Salvatore the greatest writer of all time? Of course not.
No. He's one of the worst. He's worse than Rowling, who at least wrote for kids so she has an excuse. He's worse than Meyers, from what little twilight I managed to gag down. He's on par with many of the garbage Dragonlance-spinoff writers from the TSR era. The only fantasy I've ever read that's categorically worse that Salvator is Ed Greenwood's Elminster in Hell, which is my baseline for worst possible writing.

I'm absolutely serious when I say I've never read a well written Forgotton Realms book. Between Greenwood and Salvatore I was completely put off novels set there.

Even Frank Herbert, who wrote great stories but couldn't write a paragraph to save his life, had better writing than Salvatore.

JellyPooga
2016-10-06, 07:34 AM
The truth is out there!
Heed the warnings!
Take these pamphlets and spread the word before it's too late!
[/RANT]

Yes.
:smallconfused:
Yes.
:smallsmile:
Yes!
:smallbiggrin:

Where do you live and how do I get to play in one of your games? :smalltongue: Failing that, gimme some of those pamphlets; the world needs to hear about this. I won't let you down Comrade-Leader; Long live the Revolution!

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-06, 07:37 AM
I wouldn't mind playing an evil drow but roleplaying an evil drow is so hard to do. :frown:

Vizzerdrix
2016-10-06, 08:05 AM
We humans are the descendents of those who didn't hide underground, or stupidly stay amongst the ruins, but instead pioneered new lands and made new tools.

LIES!!! Humans are NOT decended from dirty elfs!

Segev
2016-10-06, 09:53 AM
No. He's one of the worst. He's worse than Rowling, who at least wrote for kids so she has an excuse. He's worse than Meyers, from what little twilight I managed to gag down. He's on par with many of the garbage Dragonlance-spinoff writers from the TSR era. The only fantasy I've ever read that's categorically worse that Salvator is Ed Greenwood's Elminster in Hell, which is my baseline for worst possible writing.

I'm absolutely serious when I say I've never read a well written Forgotton Realms book. Between Greenwood and Salvatore I was completely put off novels set there.

Even Frank Herbert, who wrote great stories but couldn't write a paragraph to save his life, had better writing than Salvatore.

I strongly disagree on Salvatore. I won't say he's great, nor even as good as Rowling, but his novels - at least the early ones about Drizz't's childhood and how he came to be exiled - were entertaining. I can't say the same for Twilight.

Herbert is dry, but the setting interesting. Salvatore is not dry, and his setting was also interesting, as were a number of the characters.

Again, he's no Rowling (and certainly no Sanderson), but he's also not nearly so bad as to be compared negatively to Twilight. (I got bored in the first Twilight movie. I haven't read the books nor seen the other movies.)

gkathellar
2016-10-06, 10:25 AM
The best thing there is to say about drow is that they typically worship a god who thinks any joke is funny so long as "dead drow" is the punch line. The notion of a species that is slavishly devoted to a god who principally enjoys watching them get killed is terribly amusing to me.

Generally speaking, everything in the lore beyond that is a mess of creepy biological determinism and confused interpretations of mythology.


He's worse than Meyers, from what little twilight I managed to gag down.

No. No no no no no. NO.

Âmesang
2016-10-06, 11:10 AM
Note that even CE doesn't have to be Stupid Evil. Just come up with a good reason for loyalty to the party, and they make great Poisonous Friends (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoisonousFriend).
I find it easiest to focus on the "individuality" aspect of Chaos; if you help keep the party strong and healthy, they'll have an easier chance of surviving encounters… which means you'll have an easier chance of surviving encounters.

It's safety in numbers… and your mindset is one that considers those numbers to be working for you (whether they agree with/realize it or not) under the guise of tools/pawns/meatshields/toys… and no one gets to break your toys but you. :smallamused: Of course you don't want to do that, either, 'cause a broken tool isn't very useful, and a broke [meat]shield isn't going to defend well against your enemies (or, heck, betray your allies and now you've two sets of enemies gunning for you).


"You here this now, whoever's responsible for this, you turned my partner, Troy, into jelly! I will have you destroyed for this! He was mine to toy with and destroy as I please in a humorous fashion; nobody outdoes Dr. Insano, do you here?! Nobody! I must plan my vengeance… but first it would be a shame to let all of that tasty jelly go to waste… oh, it looks like strawberry… Nurse! Fetch me the English muffins!"

Inevitability
2016-10-06, 01:24 PM
I wouldn't mind playing an evil drow but roleplaying an evil drow is so hard to do. :frown:

If it's got a back, introduce a dagger to it. There, done.

Segev
2016-10-06, 02:52 PM
If it's got a back, introduce a dagger to it. There, done.

What is it with people's obsession with death by natural causes? A dagger in one's back will naturally cause one to die.

Mordar
2016-10-06, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't mind playing an evil drow but roleplaying an evil drow is so hard to do. :frown:


If it's got a back, introduce a dagger to it. There, done.


What is it with people's obsession with death by natural causes? A dagger in one's back will naturally cause one to die.

Plus that's really just the way to play a young male drow. Stab them in the front. They'll never see it coming.

Tanarii
2016-10-06, 03:17 PM
I strongly disagree on Salvatore. I won't say he's great, nor even as good as RowlingAnd given how bad Rowling is, thats such a low bar to make. Yet he still doesn't.


Again, he's no Rowling (and certainly no Sanderson), but he's also not nearly so bad as to be compared negatively to Twilight. (I got bored in the first Twilight movie. I haven't read the books nor seen the other movies.)The thing is, Sanderson is a good author. Unlike Rowling, Meyers, or Salvatore. Those three are fan-fic quality writing that got published because poor quality writing can still sell books.

The problem is once I'd read something good, I can't read their stuff any more without the terrible writing skills jumping off the page and ripping me right out of any story. Hell, I used to read Piers Anthony Xanth when I was young. I thought it was great writing. They I went back and re read some, and was horrified. But Salvatore and Greenwoods Elminster in Hell made my head hurt just after reading something middling like Dragonlance & Darksword. They're the in the bottom rung of Fantasy, at least that I've read.

Segev
2016-10-06, 03:54 PM
I don't know what you've got against Rowling; her writing is fine. There's nothing unprofessional about its quality. I dislike book 5 and book 7, but only book 7 is really a BAD book (as opposed to just pushing my buttons in unfun ways). And that's due to a stylistic choice she stuck to, which many authors lauded as very good will do. (I can't stand Steinbeck or Faulkner or Hemmingway, either, all because their "style" is atrocious.)

Could the Harry Potter books have been better? Absolutely. But few books can't be improved in some way. (Apparently, the first three would have been longer, with more interwoven background info that got shoved into later books, if her editors hadn't insisted she keep them short because "kids won't read long books.")

Pugwampy
2016-10-07, 03:40 AM
I love R.A. Salvatore . Second only to Dragonlance Chronicles . its because of him everyone likes Drow . I enjoyed the alien descriptions of the Drow culture .

Tanarii
2016-10-07, 08:33 AM
I don't know what you've got against Rowling; her writing is fine. There's nothing unprofessional about its quality.It's unprofessional if you judge it as a book written for adults. For children, her poor writing skills are acceptable and even laudable. As an adult, having read quality writing, her poor writing skills are jarring. I assume she was intentionally writing to make it easier for children to read, which is fine and dandy.What's weird is adults who still think her stuff is passable, or even good, writing once they are adults.

Meanwhile Salvatore doesn't even make that standard. His works are close to unreadable, not 'written for children but still judged decent by adults'. Also not Elminster in Hell unreadable. But close.

Edit: I've said my piece like 4 times too many already in this thread, so I'll totally leave it be now. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue disagreeing forcefully. :smallwink:

Segev
2016-10-07, 08:40 AM
Perhaps I am merely less discerning than you, then. *shrug*

It's been a long while since I read the Drizz't books. I found them to be decent light reading. I tend to judge quality based on how well the story holds together. You can have a perfectly fine story where events just happen in order, as I think Salvatore's works tend to do. Rowling's work shows more inclination towards things like foreshadowing as you get further along. Sanderson is a master of weaving things in early which come up later, and he and Rothfus tend to make page-turners that keep me going "just one more chapter" by building the mystery on a fundamental level. That is truly great writing, in my opinion. (Now, if only Rothfus would actually FINISH HIS DARNED TRILOGY.)

BAD writing, to me, mostly happens in adult fiction when a writer falls in love with the idea of showing off his world and won't advance the plot, having his characters do practically nothing for novel after novel. Robert Jordan and, with the last novel or so, George R.R. Martin are guilty of this.

Âmesang
2016-10-07, 07:51 PM
I keep seeing that pop up now and then, and now I can't help but imagine a gnome bard skipping through the Underdark singing,


"The wonderful thing about drows
Is drows are wonderful things!
Their tops are made out of rubber
Their bottoms are made out of springs!
They're bouncy, trouncy, flouncy, pouncy
Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun!"

Max_Killjoy
2016-10-07, 08:56 PM
Rowling has her faults as a writer -- all writers do to some extent -- but to hold her up as an exemplar of bad writing... um... OK.

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-07, 09:01 PM
OK why are we even talking about other writers? I'm just talking about why I enjoy drow or dark elves that what we should be talking about.:annoyed:

Kitten Champion
2016-10-07, 09:58 PM
OK why are we even talking about other writers? I'm just talking about why I enjoy drow or dark elves that what we should be talking about.:annoyed:

Not that bringing up Rowling & others isn't moving outside the overall topic of Drowdom in general... but, what's really there for us to talk about with regards to your enjoyment of Dark Elves? You're not really leaving room for our input in any fashion, it's just a blanket declaration of your preferences (I like Drow because Drow are great) of which we can't really do anything but say "Okay".

2D8HP
2016-10-07, 10:42 PM
"The wonderful thing about drows
Is drows are wonderful things!
Their tops are made out of rubber
Their bottoms are made out of springs!
They're bouncy, trouncy, flouncy, pouncy
Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun!"


:smile:

:amused:

:biggrin:

Love it!
(I hope it becomes someone's Sig!)

DataNinja
2016-10-07, 10:55 PM
OK why are we even talking about other writers? I'm just talking about why I enjoy drow or dark elves that what we should be talking about.:annoyed:

Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do. :smallwink:

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-07, 11:06 PM
Not that bringing up Rowling & others isn't moving outside the overall topic of Drowdom in general... but, what's really there for us to talk about with regards to your enjoyment of Dark Elves? You're not really leaving room for our input in any fashion, it's just a blanket declaration of your preferences (I like Drow because Drow are great) of which we can't really do anything but say "Okay".
Well excuse me for trying to be on-topic again.
:mad:

Marlowe
2016-10-08, 12:30 AM
...but there isn't really a topic to talk about. It's just you saying; "I like Drow", and us looking at you for a moment and saying "Okay", and then going on with whatever we were doing.

I remember once a flatmate brought home a copy of "The Thousand Orcs" from the library, it got passed around the flat and everyone really enjoyed it, although none of us were much into fantasy at the time. Then every other Salvatore book that I've encountered since I've wound up putting down in the "unreadably bad" pile. I've never been sure whether "Thousand Orcs" was an honest-to-god fluke of an actual GOOD book or whether there was something in the water in that place that fooled us into thinking it was reasonable.

Inevitability
2016-10-08, 04:35 AM
OK why are we even talking about other writers? I'm just talking about why I enjoy drow or dark elves that what we should be talking about.:annoyed:

So let me get this straight: you want us to talk about your preference for dark elves? How exactly do you imagine such a thread?

"Hey guys, I like drow."
"Okay. You like drow."
"You like drow? That's cool."
"Hey, apparently Bartmanhomer likes drow."

Satinavian
2016-10-08, 04:40 AM
Well excuse me for trying to be on-topic again.
:mad:Ok, let's try this :

How do you feel about alll the other takes on Drow/Dark Elves outside of the Forgotten Realms stuff, e. g. :

- Eberron Drow
- Drowtales Drow
- Warhammer Dark Elves
- TDE Dark Elfs
- Shadowrun Drow

Which do you prefer and why ?

RazorChain
2016-10-08, 05:20 AM
And then you've got Icingdeath, which sounds like it came from a random name generator :smallbiggrin:

I always thought he was murdering the icing on a cake.... and it didnt help when I misread Twinkle as a Twinkie

Herobizkit
2016-10-08, 05:43 AM
I always thought he was murdering the icing on a cake.... and it didnt help when I misread Twinkle as a TwinkieMakes a lot more sense when you consider both are FROSTing.

GrayDeath
2016-10-08, 06:14 AM
Oh God, soooo much about Drizzt is now clearer to me! :belkar:

Cluedrew
2016-10-08, 10:18 AM
Well excuse me for trying to be on-topic again.We could of used this earlier in the thread when people when people were almost literally asking what the topic of the thread was supposed to be (ex. #6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21259302&postcount=6)). Of course we are still talking about what is to like and not like about Drow, the books that are about them are part of the experience.

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-08, 10:31 AM
...but there isn't really a topic to talk about. It's just you saying; "I like Drow", and us looking at you for a moment and saying "Okay", and then going on with whatever we were doing.

I remember once a flatmate brought home a copy of "The Thousand Orcs" from the library, it got passed around the flat and everyone really enjoyed it, although none of us were much into fantasy at the time. Then every other Salvatore book that I've encountered since I've wound up putting down in the "unreadably bad" pile. I've never been sure whether "Thousand Orcs" was an honest-to-god fluke of an actual GOOD book or whether there was something in the water in that place that fooled us into thinking it was reasonable.

Sorry. I didn't know that the topic will be so bland and boring.


So let me get this straight: you want us to talk about your preference for dark elves? How exactly do you imagine such a thread?

"Hey guys, I like drow."
"Okay. You like drow."
"You like drow? That's cool."
"Hey, apparently Bartmanhomer likes drow."

As I said in the beginning of the top quote. I didn't know that the topic will be so bland and boring.


Ok, let's try this :

How do you feel about alll the other takes on Drow/Dark Elves outside of the Forgotten Realms stuff, e. g. :

- Eberron Drow
- Drowtales Drow
- Warhammer Dark Elves
- TDE Dark Elfs
- Shadowrun Drow

Which do you prefer and why ?

I prefer the original D&D Drow why because they're much cooler than the different version RPG.


We could of used this earlier in the thread when people when people were almost literally asking what the topic of the thread was supposed to be (ex. #6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21259302&postcount=6)). Of course we are still talking about what is to like and not like about Drow, the books that are about them are part of the experience.

Yeah. Sorry my bad.

falcon1
2016-10-08, 10:45 AM
How about Pathfinder's drow?

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-08, 10:48 AM
How about Pathfinder's drow?

I don't care for Pathfinder's drow. It's a cheap and unoriginal clone from D&D.

Âmesang
2016-10-08, 11:02 AM
What about them do you like? What is it about the underground, brutal-minded, back-stabbing, matriarchal theocracy that you find appealing? Do you prefer the original drow from WORLD OF GREYHAWK® or the variation found in the FORGOTTEN REALMS®?

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-08, 11:05 AM
What about them do you like? What is it about the underground, brutal-minded, back-stabbing, matriarchal theocracy that you find appealing? Do you prefer the original drow from WORLD OF GREYHAWK® or the variation found in the FORGOTTEN REALMS®?

Well I like the Forgotten Realm version. My favorite drow is definitely Drizzt. :biggrin:

2D8HP
2016-10-08, 11:37 AM
While I have long favored the ideal that so called "Elves" of the surface were exiled there for being insufficiently badass, where the day star bleached them! See: Drow the original Elves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475794-Drow-the-original-Elves).

But for a compelling alternate narrative of the origin of the Drow:
The Canyon

During the world’s early age, when hideous, powerful beasts ruled the world and Gods roamed the Planes, the elven tribes huddled together in a narrow, high-walled canyon bisected by a river.* Weary from the endless Dragon wars and marauding armies of demi-humans, the elven tribes*hoped to find peace, quiet, and a safe place to raise their children.*** The canyon walls provided protection while the grasses and river provided food.

For a while, life was good. The people were at peace.

Time passed and the tribal populations grew.** Land became scarce.* Soon, tribes bumped into their neighbors.* Neighborly bumping turned into fights. Fights turned into battles.* Battles turned into wars.* Tribe fell on tribe.* The river ran red with blood.* Many died during the struggle to end the fighting and forge a single kingdom.

From this mayhem stood a hero.* He pointed to the walls of the canyon and shouted:

“Stop fighting!* My tribe’s Goddess is a Goddess of building.* She has shown me the way and the way is*up.* We have plenty of room for us all to live together in harmony!* We will build our city up the canyon walls!”

And so they did.

Lead by the Builder Tribe, the tribes put down their weapons and built their cities up first one canyon wall, and then the second in great edifices of architecture. The tribes grew food from enormous terraces.* To maximize living and working space,* the tribes left only the narrow river running between the two sets of buildings.* Now everyone had plenty of space.* Problem solved!* The tribes lived together, forever safe from the endless apocalypse outside their canyon, in peace.

The tribes had a brand new problem, though:

Sunlight.

Like all people who rely on magic, they don’t think too hard about physics.* As the buildings grew in height to house more people, the buildings cast deeper shadows on the ravine below.* Those who lived at the top enjoyed full sun and those who lived on the bottom experienced sunlight only at noon. The people at the top had plenty of sun for their plants and crops. This can’t possibly be fair, those who lived on the bottom said to those who lived on top. We are all equal. We are all People of the Canyon!

But those who lived on the top laughed and threw their leftovers down on the Sunless below.* They said: “Perhaps you should have worshipped the Builder Goddess.”

Stratification

Safe from the world’s terrors by the canyon and ensconced in their Canyon City, the Tribal People became one people. Over time, their society stratified into castes based on their access to sunlight and thus better, fresher plants. While they didn’t know what Vitamin D was, the effects of more sun on health were apparent.

The Builder Tribe lived on top and enjoyed full sunlight and the incredibly scarce resource of the roofs.* They fashioned themselves the Canyon’s royalty and nobility.** They crowned a Queen.* The Sunlit, as they renamed themselves, wove delicate bridges of stone and magic high in the air over the river ensuring the canyon walls did not bifurcate into two societies.

Directly beneath the Sunlit lived the military leaders, the Wizards and the Clerics – the intelligencia, the scientists, and the armed and dangerous.* With a dangerous outside world, the Sunlit kept the military close, highly trained and ready.** No one knew when Planal Horrors or Demons of the Abyss would appear from the desert and attack the Canyon City.** Those best equipped to support the magic buildings and fight the world’s terrors lived closest to the top beneath the Sunlit.

The military provided a layer between the rich and everyone else.* Should the lower castes rise up, they literally had torise up.* They had to climb the endless stairs to fight an uphill battle against an always armed and well-trained military. In the city’s beginning uprisings, were plentiful. Blood shed on the stairs. Yet blood, like all liquids, flows back downhill.

Beneath the military, Wizards and Clerics lived the non-magical but highly skilled craftsmen – the clockmakers, the tool makers, the apothecaries, the engineers, those who kept the waterworks flowing and understood the pumps to bring water to their terraced gardens.* These were the builders and merchants. They were key to ensuring the Canyon City functioned.* These were the City’s “middle class.”

These middle class citizens fought over windows where they could see the sun and place their windowsill planters. Small battles erupted over deck access.*They had sun but never quite enough sun.* Full sun was for their betters.

At the bottom of Canyon City lived the Sunless. *Their lack of sun (and proper nutrition)*condemned them by birth to live among the enormous piles of refuse thrown from above.* Those living on the canyon floor enjoyed sunlight only when the sun was at noon and, even then, only in summer time; otherwise they dwelt forever in a twilight dimness.

The poorest Sunless, living next to the now-polluted river, survived by garbage picking.* Those luckier, who lived in hovels on the lowest building floors where the pressure from above was greatest, served as servants, manned the endless ropes of the enormous elevators, worked the terraces and gardens, ferried the endless garbage, and labored in the bowels of the City.* No Sunless could pass for the military class or even the middle class; these above*shunned*them for their skin untouched by rays of sunshine.

The Sunlit ruled with a tyrannical fist and maintained order over their delicate society. They unleashed their military upon their own people as readily as external threats.* In their mind, Canyon City must survive.* Their people lived here.* They weren’t any more and there wasn’t anywhere to go.* They were a tiny flame in a universe of chaos and darkness.* Should their society collapse, they all would be afterthoughts in this Age of Terrors.

The Sunlit would do what they needed to do – and reap the rewards of sunlight.

Under the Sunlit’s leadership, the Canyon City survived the terrors of this Age. The people metastasized into a stable society.* They built culture and religion around their stratified class system.* No one dared marry someone from a different floor.* No one even*hiredinto a job or position they hadn’t been born into.* They lived a segregated existence.

The canyon people forgot equality.* The Gods put them in their place for excellent reasons.* The middle class didn’t want to be Sunlit as Sunlit had all the responsibility.* Sunless didn’t want to be middle class because they had to sit at desks all day.** Memory of a more egalitarian time before the city and the wars faded and then were gone.* Eventually, the Sunlit ruled, the military and magic users married among themselves, the middle class fought for windows, and the Sunless picked through refuse and operated the elevators.

There were fights. And bloody uprisings.* Many died on the stairs up.* They made their own history. But life in the canyon was, over the arch of this age of history, stable.

This was the Will of the Gods and their Chief, the Goddess of Building in High Places.* This was the way it was and forever will be.

Forever it turned out, even to people of this early age who*measured*time in eons instead of years, was too long a time horizon for their survival.

Childhood’s End

The world warmed. The rains came. The desert turned into great expanses of grazing grassland. *New intelligent peoples emerged from the caves and tiny enclaves. Without the Canyon City noticing, the Age of Terrors ended.** A new era began.

More terrifying than any dragon, demon, or demi-human army, man was the ultimate destructive force in the universe.* Man multiplied their population ten times faster than the Canyon City people.* They tore metal from the ground and honed iron into swords and armor.* They domesticated beasts.** They tore down forests to sew fields of wheat.

Pushed by population pressures, great horse tribes swept from the east led by chariot-riding warlords.* They began the great and storied Age of Heroes.* They destroyed the monsters of the earlier age.** Dragons died. Demons died.* Man wrested their lands and settled their people.* They spread and fought and kinged themselves.

Heroes stumbled upon a few Sunless who left their Canyon City and survived the terrors of the world.* These Heroes listened to the Sunless’s tales and told these creatures they would free their people from the Sunlit’s merciless bondage. (“Is that such a good idea?” asked the Sunless but one cannot stop a Hero once he has a Quest.)* Seeking treasure, magic, and power, the greatest Heroes of the Age held high their magic swords, bonded together into a great Murder Hobo adventuring army, and marched on the Canyon City.

The Sunlit were not taken completely unaware.* Their Wizards warned them horrors were coming.* The Sunlit roused their military and readied*their spells.* The ensuing battle between Sunlit and Man was terrible and bloody.* But men are cunning bastards and they rallied the lower castes long jealous of the Sunlit to their cause.* Many centuries later, in the mouths of bards, this battle was cast as an epic battle between Good and Evil.

When it was over, and Canyon City destroyed and plundered of its ancient riches, man was victorious.* They lifted the Sunlit high and pronounced a terrible sentence on them:

“For your crimes, your people and your Goddess shall be cast underground.* You will forever be deprived of the sun.* You will not even earn an hour a day in summer time.* Never again will people be oppressed by you or your kind.”

Man cast the Sunlit, including their military and magic-users, into a deep underground cavern and sealed them away with*magic.** Some say they survived the catastrophe with the help of their Goddess of Building but no one has seen them since.

Gazing upon their destroyed city and life with men standing by smiling and going “hey wasn’t this a great idea,” the people of the canyon did the only thing they could do.** They gathered their possessions from the rubble and drifted away from the canyon and out to the strange new grasslands and forests full of new intelligent beings.* Bewildered city people not equipped to hunt and fight, they lived mostly on their magic and gifts from their Gods.

The middle class re-tribalized.* They turned into enclaves of families and familiar groupings.* They choose to live closer to man’s settlements but never with the home-destroying mankind. They found man’s cities filthy, the technology crude, and their feudalism lacking the old caste system’s elegance. The prior middle class hid in their forests but learned their lesson and kept an eye on the world.* Always nearby, always apart.

The Sunless became their own tribe.* Now, with infinite sunlight at their disposal, they found they didn’t much care for it.* And they despised man. Why did they need “men” to “free” them?** In time, in this new world, they would have freed themselves.** Man destroyed their city and took away their revenge. They owed man nothing. The Sunless disappeared deeper into the darkest forests and built their own cities of magic and light. A few Sunless popped up time to time in man’s cities and man’s affairs but these were the curious and young. Otherwise the Sunless wanted no part of this new Age.

Time went on.* The Age of Heroes became the Age of Man.

The Sunlit are still gone.

Occasionally, the elder people of the canyon tribes, those who still dimly remember the Canyon City, leave offerings at cavern mouths.** They press their ears to the ground listening for sound.* They use mirrors to sharpen sunlight to a burning point hoping to summon the Building Goddess.* And, rarely, they see a faint, possible, maybe sign that the Sunlit still live and will return to enact vengeance on man for them all.

And one elder claims he saw a sigil on a dungeon wall not too long ago.* Maybe?* A building with connectors that looks, in a certain light, like a spider…

Click here (http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/author/multiplexer/) for the source!

Belac93
2016-10-08, 12:55 PM
I like drow, but my problem is that everyone has their characters be either 'redeemed super nice guys' or 'nasty super mean guys.' I really like the Eberron drow, who think that others elves do not uphold the 'honour' of the elven race, and they seem more TN than evil.

Segev
2016-10-09, 10:53 AM
I like drow, but my problem is that everyone has their characters be either 'redeemed super nice guys' or 'nasty super mean guys.' I really like the Eberron drow, who think that others elves do not uphold the 'honour' of the elven race, and they seem more TN than evil.

What level of middle ground would you prefer? I like my friends to be quite evil, but not stupidly so. "Nasty super mean guys" conjures, for me, images of sadists who are cruel for cruelty's sake. And Drow society does see little wrong with this. So I'd expect some level of reveling in vengeance and mean-spiritedness. That said, they are capable of loyalty and valuing others in their personal sphere.

The danger in decrying "super mean guys" is that you give the impression that the alternative is "neutral drow;" and that's like asking why elves are always such nice guys. It's because their culture is CG. Drow culture is CE. Exploring exceptions is easier than variants, but variants are the more interesting, I think.

Asmodean_
2016-10-09, 11:20 AM
I've tried to play a sick-of-yo-shiz drow which I think has probably worked out better than three and a half tons of Drizzt remakes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481648-The-One-Sane-Drow)

Excession
2016-10-09, 10:24 PM
It's because their culture is CG. Drow culture is CE. Exploring exceptions is easier than variants, but variants are the more interesting, I think.

I'm interested in the reasons and details. Not "their culture is CE", but working out why, and what that looks like for inside and outside the culture. I also tend to not like the "because Lolth" reasons very much; they're too easy, and lack predictive power. I want Drow that have a rich, complex, crazy, but also fundamentally flawed and evil culture. There are plenty of examples of this in our history too, without mad gods getting involved.

I think in part I find the Drow interesting because many of the existing descriptions of their culture, behaviour, fashion, architecture etc. don't seem to fully explore how alien these elves can be. Take the common image of a Drow city for example: a big cavern with lots of gothic themed buildings on the floor. Remove the odd stalactite and it could be any old town in Europe. At best you get "Minas Tirith with stalactites", at worst you see pitched roofs in a cavern where it never rains. I prefer the (admittedly harder to draw) idea of a city in a labyrinth, lots of tunnels and rooms in many places carved or grown from living rock. Only the locals can find their way around, and everything changes constantly as tunnels are dug or filled to follow changing alliances. It's a city in three dimensions, not a group of buildings scattered across a flat surface like the degenerate surface dwellers build.

Segev
2016-10-09, 10:45 PM
I always pictured Drow cavern-cities building out from every surface. Yes, up from the floor, but also all the way up the walls with "cliff-side" style housing, and the noble citadels actually hanging like fat stalactites from the ceiling, controlling the access ways towards "up."

Slender-by-comparison walkways extend impossibly long ways across the caverns, connecting walls to low-hanging inverse towers and high-reaching normal buildings, giving a "web-like" look to it from any decent vantage for looking across the cavern.

Herobizkit
2016-10-11, 09:43 PM
Well I like the Forgotten Realm version. My favorite drow is definitely Drizzt. :biggrin:I like The Shadow Elves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Elves) and the jungle Drow of Eberron the best.

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-11, 09:49 PM
The reason why I like the Forgotten Realms Drow because their society and culture is very well expanded and explained more clearly. Even though I like the good-aligned drow better than the evil and villainy drow.

weckar
2016-10-12, 12:52 AM
That's like saying you like a certain sports team because they have one good player (but the rest of them suck).

Sorry, only non-political example I could think of.

kraftcheese
2016-10-12, 01:25 AM
Ok, let's try this :

How do you feel about alll the other takes on Drow/Dark Elves outside of the Forgotten Realms stuff, e. g. :

- Eberron Drow
- Drowtales Drow
- Warhammer Dark Elves
- TDE Dark Elfs
- Shadowrun Drow

Which do you prefer and why ?
I think my favourite Dark Elves in media are definitely the Dunmer in The Elder Scrolls series; the care and thought put into their culture and history sold em for me.

Sir Chuckles
2016-10-12, 02:18 AM
It's like saying you love Reuben sandwiches because you love corned beef, but you also happen to hate sauerkraut, Russian dressing, and swiss cheese. You took off the parts that are typically inherent to the dish and are would otherwise be capable of getting your fix elsewhere. Many people who do say they like them typically like them after putting their own light on them. Which would be fine, if that light wasn't so commonly "Drizzt-lite". It doesn't seem like those people actually like Drow, but rather a specific archetype of "Culturally/Socially/Etc. Oppressed Good Guys".

And that is the major symptom of what I dislike about Drow. Their fluff just doesn't leave many openings for player characters, both because it is inherently restrictive (hence the tendency to only have the two flavors) and because it's poorly expanded on. Elves, Humans, Dwarves, all of them have stories of good and evil societies, whereas non-Evil Drow are frequently shown to be lone wanderers and rebels. To my knowledge, there aren't any functional groups of good Drow. There is a single Chaotic Good Drow Goddess in the race's pantheon but is the lowest ranking deity there. She was also one of the ones lost to 4e and brought back in 5e. Unfortunately, the fluff around the goddess further promotes the Drizzt archetype and keeps a few elements of the standard Drow fluff, such as matriarchal priestesses and the awkward fetish parts of the Drow, which I won't address to spare the babs of the site.

Though it could be a prime example of the society fluff I mentioned, this fluff is pretty never "officially" explored. There are only handwave mentions of Eilistraee in a few games (mostly Neverwinter). No prestige classes, no artifacts, and, dangit it, poster boy Drizzt doesn't even worship her. Honestly, before making this post, I had no idea that the god was in the D&D pantheon.

Spore
2016-10-12, 08:02 AM
I for one do not like Drow. The curse of Lolth as well as her clergy is a poor excuse to generalize a whole race into being evil. I realize that anyone controlling high level magic could control entire cities and you will not rebel against someone able to vaporize you and your whole family. But you can only do so much with the tool of fear. On the other hand, the goddess seems to enjoy having her houses war against each other which would lead into decades of suffering if any minor conflict would end in civil war between noble houses.

Traders would start trading with other cities, decimating the cities' food supplies in mere weeks. Ignoring absurd tricks like Create Food-Traps the whole economy would topple and the houses would be nowhere near as rich as they are portrayed in Salvatore's books. I like the Dunmer of Tamriel the most of any dark elves. There is reason for the discoloration, they are not generalized as incredibly evil entities although their deities are bordering into evil they are not the "modern orcs".

gkathellar
2016-10-12, 08:13 AM
But you can only do so much with the tool of fear.

Machiavelli would beg to differ. Lolth is both feared and loved.


On the other hand, the goddess seems to enjoy having her houses war against each other which would lead into decades of suffering if any minor conflict would end in civil war between noble houses.

Yes. Drow society is a big joke designed for Lolth's personal amusement.


Traders would start trading with other cities, decimating the cities' food supplies in mere weeks.

They're slavers and raiders, and so not dependent on trade. Frankly, trade is one of the few things that may act as a deterrent against drow raids, so not trading is a distinctly bad idea.

Tanarii
2016-10-12, 08:45 AM
Best take I've seen on Drow so far is the critical hits dungeonomics one. Given that the entire series is tongue-in-cheek ... but so is D&D at its roots.

Edit:
For reference:
http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2015/07/07/inside-the-deep-elf-marketing-department/

http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2016/08/02/the-deep-elf-game-shows/

Spore
2016-10-12, 05:44 PM
There are several things like that but I feel like a whole people destined to be evil is a bit much. History had raiders like the Vikings or the Spanish and Portugese explorers but they still had normal agriculture and a normal infrastructure and they werent destined to be villains. Of course you vilify your enemies but that doesnt mean they are evil on a "objective" scale (as objective as you can call the whole alignment system anyhow). And that is what breaks my immersion with Faerun and Pathfinder Drow heavily.

Eberron Drow are some sort of survival-of-the-fittest mixed with scorpion themes but they are more believable.

Raimun
2016-10-12, 07:21 PM
1. Drow are attractive and wonderful.

2. Drow are fun to play with.

3. Drow are great characters


What? How? They aren't 21 foot tall, green skinned warriors who can throw lightning and breathe underwater. Because Storm Giants are all those things (and more!), they tick those three boxes waaay better.

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-12, 07:25 PM
What? How? They aren't 21 foot tall, green skinned warriors who can throw lightning and breathe underwater. Because Storm Giants are all those things (and more!), they tick those three boxes waaay better.

That's what I like about Drow. It's my preference to play them as characters.

VoxRationis
2016-10-12, 08:06 PM
I don't usually include drow in my settings, but one I designed specifically to be fully 5e-compatible (including, sadly, all the PHB races) explained them as the result of a corporate industrial culture run rampant for millennia. Notably, they're not exactly a stable or functional society; they're losing ground to the dwarves and environmental damage is coming back to haunt them, with infertility becoming a worrying problem (hence the slave raids).

Inevitability
2016-10-13, 01:06 AM
That's what I like about Drow. It's my preference to play them as characters.

You like that they're outclassed by storm giants? :smallconfused:

Satinavian
2016-10-13, 06:27 AM
There are several things like that but I feel like a whole people destined to be evil is a bit much. History had raiders like the Vikings or the Spanish and Portugese explorers but they still had normal agriculture and a normal infrastructure and they werent destined to be villains. Of course you vilify your enemies but that doesnt mean they are evil on a "objective" scale (as objective as you can call the whole alignment system anyhow). And that is what breaks my immersion with Faerun and Pathfinder Drow heavily.

Eberron Drow are some sort of survival-of-the-fittest mixed with scorpion themes but they are more believable.That is more a problem with the concept of alignment and trying to use it for races/cultures.

Eberron Drow benefit from Eberron shifting alignment into some remote corner and ignoring it whenever possible. All the other Eberron societies are more believable than their blatantly aligned counterparts in other worlds for the same reason.

Bartmanhomer
2016-10-13, 07:31 AM
You like that they're outclassed by storm giants? :smallconfused:

Yes that's what I said.

Segev
2016-10-13, 10:38 AM
I am not allowed to play a Half-Giant who claims his Giant half is a storm giant and his non-giant half is a drow.

While using the XPH's racial stats for him.

The Fury
2016-10-13, 01:25 PM
You like that they're outclassed by storm giants? :smallconfused:

My reasoning as well. My DM is always asking me, "The Fury, why are you always making human characters?"

My answer is always the same, "Humans are outclassed by storm giants."

Funnily enough, no one at the table seems to get it.

Anyway, drow. I don't always include them in games I've run, and I've never played as one. Though as someone that likes setting fluff and little details they're kind of neat. I'm more into an interpretation that they're generally evil because they come from a cruel society in a cruel part of the world. So while an individual drow that come to the surface can try to be good, they're generally not very good at it.

There's other bits that I've considered about where they come from as well. The way I wrote them in a setting I'm running is that the analogue of the Underdark would have killed them if they didn't receive Llolth's blessing. That blessing changed them, giving them the charcoal-colored skin and white hair, the darkvision, the aversion to light and so on. I thought it might be neat to include other smaller details too. Like twins and triplets are more common among drow than they are among humans, dwarves and so on. Which offers a slight explanation as to how they're able to maintain a population despite not valuing life too much, the constant back-biting and living in a place where nature tries to kill you. I've also adding the detail that because they've lived in the dark for countless generations, nearly all drow are colorblind.

Also, that Drizzt... "Icingdeath" is a nickname I'd give to some creeper that hangs around bakeries and licks cakes when no one's looking.

NecroDancer
2016-10-14, 06:19 PM
Note to self: make a blind Drow ranger that throws scimitars at his enemies no matter what (also give him a dinosaur companion).

Segev
2016-10-14, 08:20 PM
Note to self: make a blind Drow ranger that throws scimitars at his enemies no matter what (also give him a dinosaur companion).

A blind drow ranger that throws scimitars, eh? (https://youtu.be/X6Xo-5IfTN8?t=174) Two out of three ain't bad...

Kitten Champion
2016-10-14, 08:21 PM
Note to self: make a blind Drow ranger that throws scimitars at his enemies no matter what (also give him a dinosaur companion).

Does he just have bags and bags full of scimitars to waste? Or is it Just the two and they magically return to him after? Or maybe like the Thief Swords from Final Fantasy IX where there are two scimitars joined together by their hilts to create a boomerang-like super-scimitar?

NecroDancer
2016-10-14, 09:29 PM
Does he just have bags and bags full of scimitars to waste? Or is it Just the two and they magically return to him after? Or maybe like the Thief Swords from Final Fantasy IX where there are two scimitars joined together by their hilts to create a boomerang-like super-scimitar?

Bags of them, he will have to stop carrying food, gold, and any non-scimitar related object.

His name will be "the ranger formally known as Drizz't "Garry" Do'Urden (no relation)".

Verbannon
2016-10-14, 09:49 PM
My favorite depiction of Drow is In the greyhawk classic series, descent into the depths of the earth. Its just satisfying after hearing drow lovers talk about how awesome drow are and how it takes an army of knights and wizards to kill even a single drow raiding party.Its nice to read a book where they get slaughtered by the hundreds and even Lolth gets disincoporated by having her drink spiked with fairy wine.

Âmesang
2016-10-14, 10:48 PM
"I throw scimitars and eat steaks made of scimitars."

With all due respect to Girly (http://girlyyy.com/).

Irennan
2016-10-15, 04:58 PM
It's like saying you love Reuben sandwiches because you love corned beef, but you also happen to hate sauerkraut, Russian dressing, and swiss cheese. You took off the parts that are typically inherent to the dish and are would otherwise be capable of getting your fix elsewhere. Many people who do say they like them typically like them after putting their own light on them. Which would be fine, if that light wasn't so commonly "Drizzt-lite". It doesn't seem like those people actually like Drow, but rather a specific archetype of "Culturally/Socially/Etc. Oppressed Good Guys".

And that is the major symptom of what I dislike about Drow. Their fluff just doesn't leave many openings for player characters, both because it is inherently restrictive (hence the tendency to only have the two flavors) and because it's poorly expanded on. Elves, Humans, Dwarves, all of them have stories of good and evil societies, whereas non-Evil Drow are frequently shown to be lone wanderers and rebels. To my knowledge, there aren't any functional groups of good Drow. There is a single Chaotic Good Drow Goddess in the race's pantheon but is the lowest ranking deity there. She was also one of the ones lost to 4e and brought back in 5e. Unfortunately, the fluff around the goddess further promotes the Drizzt archetype and keeps a few elements of the standard Drow fluff, such as matriarchal priestesses and the awkward fetish parts of the Drow, which I won't address to spare the babs of the site.

Though it could be a prime example of the society fluff I mentioned, this fluff is pretty never "officially" explored. There are only handwave mentions of Eilistraee in a few games (mostly Neverwinter). No prestige classes, no artifacts, and, dangit it, poster boy Drizzt doesn't even worship her. Honestly, before making this post, I had no idea that the god was in the D&D pantheon.

There is a lot of lore about Eilistraee, actually.

Just see this: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee Or this: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Church_of_Eilistraee And then the lore about her orders, specific spells, artifacts, speciality priests/PrCs and so on that are linked in those articles. Heck, there's even lore about stuff like how marriage is seen and celebrated in her communities...). If you want games, in NWN Hordes of the Underdark a whole chapter is spent helping a rebellion led by followers of Eilistraee. She also appears in many novels.

I mean, she was created by Greenwood for his own setting, and she plays a large role in the history of elves and drow in the Realms (for example, her worship on Toril predates Lolth's). Even her being big on promoting joy, beauty, fun etc... has an explanation within the context of her relation with the drow. It's not like she was tacked on.

And Eilistraee's very, very different from Drizzt. Entirely different goals and personalities (Dirzzt has never cared about his people, he even despises them. Eilistraee is all about them, she's supposed to be a mother to them, and create a future where they can blossom once again). If you make a follower of Eilistraee you're not going to be playing Drizzt. The only thing that they share is their alignment

gooddragon1
2016-10-15, 05:57 PM
Con, Drow are unable to grow magnificent beards.
Con, Drow are far too large tall-wise to fit into normal chambers & dwellings
Con, Drow traditionally wield small skinny weapons better suited to be toothpicks instead of a sensible maul or warhammer.
Con, Drow lack the honor of a Clan, either being villainous or honorless exiles
Con, Drow do not get buried in the stone of the mountain they call home
Con, Drow do not swear a blood oath to their ancestors to kill the greenskin scourge.

I stated above but this clearly deserves a side note. You called drow beautiful but between their knife ears & unhealthy, skinny, non-robust bodies they are pretty malformed...


Sorry but they just don't have much going for them.

That first one is actually a pro. Not having to shave ever is a good thing.

InvisibleBison
2016-10-15, 06:26 PM
That first one is actually a pro. Not having to shave ever is a good thing.

Just because you can grow a beard doesn't mean you have to shave.

gooddragon1
2016-10-15, 06:36 PM
Just because you can grow a beard doesn't mean you have to shave.

Says the guy who probably has a strength score higher than 4. Some of us really have to plan our light load carrying capacity :( [The skeleton template is not overpowered]

EDIT: But really, they're so itchy and uncomfortable (at least for me anyways)

Excession
2016-10-16, 10:21 PM
Just because you can grow a beard doesn't mean you have to shave.

And just because you can't grow a beard, doesn't mean you don't have to shave.

NecroDancer
2016-10-19, 05:47 PM
In my DM's canon Lolth is a motherly figure for the Drow, she is also really overbearing and whenever she leaves (aka the silence of Lolth) the Drows lose any ability to function on their own and go "lord of the flies" on each other. When Lolth gets back she scolds the Drow and gets them to fix whatever they f*cked up.

VoxRationis
2016-10-20, 02:02 AM
In my DM's canon Lolth is a motherly figure for the Drow, she is also really overbearing and whenever she leaves (aka the silence of Lolth) the Drows lose any ability to function on their own and go "lord of the flies" on each other. When Lolth gets back she scolds the Drow and gets them to fix whatever they f*cked up.

That's an interesting reversal of their relationship with their deity, while also not necessarily changing much about how the drow actually operate. I like it.

Tiktik Ironclaw
2016-10-22, 01:13 AM
I feel like the hatred that a number of people have for drow just stems from the over-hyping some fans of drow have, a lot like how weeabos ruin anime for a lot of people. I find drow visually appealing, with the striking ebony skin, ivory hair combo that emphasizes the otherworldly beauty that elves are often considered to have, and visuals usual take precedence for me. I don't mind drow as they are, because the psyche of drow is something that sets them apart from humans, with the whole paradox behind it being amusing, as others have said.
Eilistraee, though, is probably one of my favorite D&D deities. I make a point of having a number of her communities in my setting, because I consider them to basically be wood elf settlements, except everyone is naked and has a more appealing appearance. What I probably enjoy about Eilistraeens is that they embody the notion that, yes, a drow is an elf, and would continue to be an elf without Lolth. Plus, the way her followers live just has that warm, rustic feeling that I like about fantasy and old-school D&D (though I play 3.5), and her creedo just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. That is why most drow I play are Eilistraeens or individualistic types out for private gain.
As to how other settings have explored drow, Drowtales is one of my favorite webcomics, and Chel rivals Erelhei-Cinlu as one of the largest Underdark cities in my 'just-about-every-fantasy-work-I-enjoy' homebrew setting. How Lolth-happy a city is varies wildly, with EC being the more traditional model of a drow city, while Chel has Lolth and Eilistraee worshippers coexisting in the same space, if not working together very well.
My thoughts on drow being considered "generic" in, say, Forgotten Realms, is simply that I don't care. The reason I don't enjoy settings like Eberron or Dark Sun is that they deviate too much from that generic quality. I came to play or run D&D for medieval European fantasy, and that is what I look for. A diversion to a tropical island or a desert can be nice, and my setting does have a few, but I personally prefer a setting resembling the traditional image of medieval Britain, France, or Germany, with tall forests and rolling hills, and the drow are pulled directly from Norse mythology (with Gygax's own spin and the work of Greenwood and others to distinguish them as D&D's own).
I ran on a bit here, but I guess I'll just say that if you dislike drow, that's fine, but the dark elves will always hold the number 2 spot in my heart as a go-to race after kobolds.

Fable Wright
2016-10-22, 02:03 AM
I feel like the hatred that a number of people have for drow just stems from the over-hyping some fans of drow have, a lot like how weeabos ruin anime for a lot of people.

That's definitely some of it, yes. A bigger part is, simply, that there's too much material printed about them in D&D, and not much expands beyond the initial writeup. Justified bits of it, perhaps, but never really throws in new things. So with limited culture to draw on, a tendency for people to try and play them as 'edgy' and try to warp the narrative around their character in particular, and with most of their secrets becoming common knowledge... most people just find them overdone.


As to how other settings have explored drow, Drowtales is one of my favorite webcomics, and Chel rivals Erelhei-Cinlu as one of the largest Underdark cities in my 'just-about-every-fantasy-work-I-enjoy' homebrew setting. How Lolth-happy a city is varies wildly, with EC being the more traditional model of a drow city, while Chel has Lolth and Eilistraee worshippers coexisting in the same space, if not working together very well.

I will briefly say that while Drowtales (or what little I've seen of it way back when) is pretty good, it does so by... well, throwing out Lolth and grafting in an entirely new and interesting history of demon-summoning as a source of conflict, with an increased focus on specific houses with unique cultures.

And you know what? I'd be entirely on board with Drow if that were the case in D&D.

As it is, the drow are just too homogenous, even if you add in Eilistraee. On your left, you will find a backstabbing society of several great houses that all espouse the same Lolth-loving ethos with cosmetic-at-best differences between the houses. On your right, you will see a commune of normal elves that happen to have dark skin.

To be fair, homogeneity is a problem with all of the other standard races as well. Dwarves are monolithic, humans are the go-between with the kingdom or empire backing them, halflings are happy-go-lucky, and so on. The difference is, they don't make pretenses at being unique and interesting and special, and they're viewed as a vehicle for expressing a roleplaying concept. Drow usually tend to be the start and end of a concept, without (typically) having more inherent depth than any other race. Granted, there are exceptions, and I could see a great roleplayer using them to add unique insights from an alien Drow community that the player reveals only glimpses of... but players like that are the exception, rather than the rule.


I came to play or run D&D for medieval European fantasy, and that is what I look for.

Out of curiosity... what kinds of conflicts are generated by generic fantasy that you find so irresistible? The small-pond dilemma where PCs are able to reach the top through leveling alone? Local-scale conflicts? The cultural unification factor that makes it possible to be universally recognized as heroes? Just familiarity? The known limits on local individuals? I don't mean to pry, but I've been trying to pin down the je ne sais quoi of generic fantasy for a while now.

Tiktik Ironclaw
2016-10-22, 11:01 AM
As it is, the drow are just too homogenous, even if you add in Eilistraee....

Out of curiosity... what kinds of conflicts are generated by generic fantasy that you find so irresistible? The small-pond dilemma where PCs are able to reach the top through leveling alone? Local-scale conflicts? The cultural unification factor that makes it possible to be universally recognized as heroes? Just familiarity? The known limits on local individuals? I don't mean to pry, but I've been trying to pin down the je ne sais quoi of generic fantasy for a while now.

I agree on what you said about homogeneity, that is of course something that a lot of DMs and GMs complain about, since nobody really wants every race to be funny-colored humans with pointy ears. I try to take races and tweak them a bit, and mostly consider how their unique mindset may make them view the world. A core tenant of my setting is that anyone can be anything within reason. That may be one of the issues associated with weird-looking humans, but I'm a visuals person anyway. Not every group of a race needs to act the same. With drow cities, the best comparison would again be Erelhei-Cinlu and Chel. EC May have a lot of generic Lolthites, but there are also disaffected Ghaunadaur worshippers looking to grab power, and after GDQ even weirder things might change the city. My version of Chel has a ruling clan that is not very devout about Lolth, a rebel clan using the imagery and divine animal of Eilistraee to rally their fellow commoners, a group of fanatic clerics and paladins hunting down demon-infected drow, and a clan of drow that live peacefully with demons. Those cities coexist because they are different places with different people, and I am fine with that.

As for why I like generic fantasy, yes, it is partly familiarity with the wealth of material that could be considered as being set in a generic fantasy world, but something about the imagery also appeals to me. I consider myself the roleplayer in my group, and I could have as much fun describing my character resting by a warm hearth on a moonlit autumn night as I could slaying a dragon. Worldbuilding is what I enjoy about D&D, and I just let that create challenges for the PCs on its own. The setting does not have to exist to cater to the party, only to exist and let the PCs find what they want. Thanks for prompting me to psychoanalyze myself and my setting, I find it a fun pass time. :smallsmile:

Kami2awa
2016-10-24, 05:25 PM
Frankly, I like the Drow a lot as written across D&D. They're decent villains, they have some interesting lore and an interesting society, and they're more interesting than orcs to fight against.

Tvtyrant
2016-10-24, 10:39 PM
I rather like Forgotten Realms Drow. They got blamed for war crimes by a faction that invaded them and used WMD on them, driven underground they built a Spartan society that cranks out warriors and mages to fight against the horrors there, and seek revenge against the jerks that cursed them.

Segev
2016-10-25, 09:09 AM
A drow-focused supplement that wrote up several houses and/or cities with variations in culture and HOW they worship Lolth (each having a Beholder-like "one true version" to which they hold and against which they measure the 'heresy' of the other houses) would be interesting.

Of course, so would such supplements covering dwarf clans and holds, and Halfling societies ranging from sedentary hobbittons to roaming roma and nomadic tribesmen. And all the gnomes!

Satinavian
2016-10-25, 11:01 AM
Yes. And if we were getting rid of the Human-as-default-and-majority assumption that is so widespread we might actually see non humans with nuanced culturel variations.

comk59
2016-10-25, 02:50 PM
I would totally be on board for a "Cultural Guide to X", that sounds fun. I'm surprised Wizards hasn't actually done that yet, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Irennan
2016-10-25, 03:10 PM
I would totally be on board for a "Cultural Guide to X", that sounds fun. I'm surprised Wizards hasn't actually done that yet, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

There are some of those. For example: The Drow of the Underdark and Dwarves Deep (2e, by Ed Greenwood, details those two races, their society, culture, nomenclature, runes, magic, all their gods--so no longer only Lolth for the drow--etc...), Elves of Evermeet. They're all FR, tho, and 2e. But they're mostly lore, so you shouldn't have problems if you use more recent editions.

2D8HP
2016-10-25, 05:12 PM
This thread,

That's what I like about Drow. It's my preference to play them as characters.
And that is the major symptom of what I dislike about Drow. Their fluff just doesn't leave many openings for player characters, both because it is inherently restrictive (hence the tendency to only have the two flavors) and because it's poorly expanded on. and a post at a PbP thread
He begins to rise to his feet as you enter, but suddenly gasps and clutches at his chest as he spots the drow entering the room. After a moment, he gathers his wits, mopping at his brow, and mutters, "My apologies, gentle folk, I sometimes forget the new times we live in."inspired this thread:


Those posts have got me wondering, the first I ever heard of the Drow was in the '77 Monster Manual where they're described as "only legend" under the Elf entry, and then they were mysterious behind the scenes villains in the "Against the Giants" modules, until you follow their trail in the "D" modules into the Drow city of Erelhei-Cinlu, but it is clear that the existence of Drow are initially unknown to PC's.
Fast forward to the 5e PHB and the Drow are a recognized PC race, so I'm wondering about "fluff" reasons to explain the migration (maybe one was given during the 2e to 4e years that I missed when I wasn't getting to play D&D).
Is there a civil war, or invasion of Llurth Dreier and/or Menzoberranzan and the Drow are refugees?
A few pioneer Drow came to the surface world and, found opportunities and came home with riches, and other Drow followed?
A "gap year" (decade?) in the human lands becomes fashionable after "Do'Urden's Guide to Faerun on five copper pieces a day is published"?
How many, and for how long?
What do you suggest?

weckar
2016-10-26, 04:10 AM
I would totally be on board for a "Cultural Guide to X", that sounds fun. I'm surprised Wizards hasn't actually done that yet, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.isn't that kind of what the whole Races Of series is about?

Sariel Vailo
2016-11-07, 07:00 PM
i agree i am a wonderfully good drow paladin of vengence,
i love being a drow for the rping, i struggle with my more "drowish" tendencies even atacking a party member out of kinky drow spite hate. i am yandere drow i atack because i love

comk59
2016-11-07, 08:23 PM
i agree i am a wonderfully good drow paladin of vengence,
i love being a drow for the rping, i struggle with my more "drowish" tendencies even atacking a party member out of kinky drow spite hate. i am yandere drow i atack because i love

Do you have a senpai?

Dimers
2016-11-08, 01:45 AM
3. Great characters? Mechanically they're moderate at best (regardless of edition) ...

They're pretty good in 4e, conditionally of course. Only humans are good for everything. Not a lot of optimal feat support, but they have darkvision and a couple interesting powers -- and they're nigh unbeatable for stealth, between bonus Dex, bonus Stealth, darkvision and a superdarkening racial power.

I also made one hell of an invoker/assassin widow of arach-tinilith for one paragon game. All attacks are poison, you get a bonus to all poison damage, and nothing can resist your poison ... :smallamused:


Con, Drow are unable to grow magnificent beards.
Con, Drow are far too large tall-wise to fit into normal chambers & dwellings
Con, Drow traditionally wield small skinny weapons better suited to be toothpicks instead of a sensible maul or warhammer.
Con, Drow lack the honor of a Clan, either being villainous or honorless exiles
Con, Drow do not get buried in the stone of the mountain they call home
Con, Drow do not swear a blood oath to their ancestors to kill the greenskin scourge.

I stated above but this clearly deserves a side note. You called drow beautiful but between their knife ears & unhealthy, skinny, non-robust bodies they are pretty malformed...

Sorry but they just don't have much going for them.

I second this motion.


All races are pretty boring if you..
a. Play them to the max Sterotype.
b. Play them against that Sterotype.

There's a significant subculture that loves playing dwarves stereotyped out the wazoo.


I feel like the hatred that a number of people have for drow just stems from the over-hyping some fans of drow have, a lot like how weeabos ruin anime for a lot of people.

True. True.

Inevitability
2016-11-08, 03:54 AM
i agree i am a wonderfully good drow paladin of vengence,
i love being a drow for the rping, i struggle with my more "drowish" tendencies even atacking a party member out of kinky drow spite hate. i am yandere drow i atack because i love

Never thought I'd be able to link this, but maybe this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19954995&postcount=3) is useful to you?

Spinach
2016-11-08, 06:06 AM
I sure do like my drows a whole lot better without that +2 Level Adjustment.

Like, back in 3.5e somebody wanting to play a drow was a huge red flag for me. "Do you really want to be 2 levels behind everyone else, to roleplay a character that could be done in any other race?" "Yes" "You would, pay 2 levels to sit and brood and disagree on every other thing that the party wants to do?" "Yes".

I've only rarely seen anyone roleplay an anti-hero without adversely affecting other people around the table, and after third or fourth time meeting a drow player who wanted the party to roleplay out 'convincing [him] to join the party/take the quest/save the meek', I got sick of it.

It's not something endemic solely to the drow players, but all drow players I've met were prone to it. "Come on, roleplay a bit, this is a roleplaying game man" really lost its charm when I quickly realised it was just a thinly-guised variation of "dance for me my poppets, DANCE!"


But now that it doesn't have that level adjustment, a lot of decent players play it too. Thank goodness because I really like the dark skin + white hair combination a lot. The stigma isn't wholly gone, but I no longer consider drows to be a red flag either.

Zombimode
2016-11-08, 06:31 AM
Yes. And if we were getting rid of the Human-as-default-and-majority assumption that is so widespread we might actually see non humans with nuanced culturel variations.

Those two issues are unrelated. While marginalizing humans may lead to cultural more diverse non-human races, a simple replacement of the human cultural niches by still mono cultured non-humans is just as likely.

Instead of human nation of Fantasy Expy of Scotland, human nation of Fantasy Expy of Ireland, human nation of Fantasy Expy of England with elves in the forests, dwarves in the mountains and halflings in the shires we get dwarven nation of Fantasy Expy of Scotland (there are a lot of mountains), elven nation of Fantasy Expy of Ireland (there are a lot of forests), halfling nation of Fantasy Expy of England (there are a lot of shires).

Spinach
2016-11-08, 06:38 AM
Those two issues are unrelated. While marginalizing humans may lead to cultural more diverse non-human races, a simple replacement of the human cultural niches by still mono cultured non-humans is just as likely.

Agreed. Pigeonholed racial representation is not about the scale of how 'common' a race is. It's just that humans don't have the built-in expectation of conforming to one image or another that makes it *easier* to roleplay. Upscaling the image for the other races isn't the solution.

Cluedrew
2016-11-08, 07:56 AM
I've only rarely seen anyone roleplay an anti-hero without adversely affecting other people around the table, and after third or fourth time meeting a drow player who wanted the party to roleplay out 'convincing [him] to join the party/take the quest/save the meek', I got sick of it.Do the guilt ridden repenter for this, it is a darker character but still can be the most driven character in the party.

But yeah, bringing characters that don't have prober motivation could probably go into the common aggravating behaviours thread. Just from the number of anecdotes, I've never had to much problem with it myself.

khadgar567
2016-11-08, 10:22 AM
Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do. :smallwink:
may ı sign this

Ok, let's try this :

How do you feel about alll the other takes on Drow/Dark Elves outside of the Forgotten Realms stuff, e. g. :

- Eberron Drow
- Drowtales Drow
- Warhammer Dark Elves
- TDE Dark Elfs
- Shadowrun Drow

Which do you prefer and why ?
eberon is classic
drowtales dont care
good material
I dont know
exotic dancers

DataNinja
2016-11-08, 01:04 PM
may ı sign this

Go ahead. :smallcool:

Tiktik Ironclaw
2016-11-08, 04:26 PM
i agree i am a wonderfully good drow paladin of vengence,
i love being a drow for the rping, i struggle with my more "drowish" tendencies even atacking a party member out of kinky drow spite hate. i am yandere drow i atack because i love

This reminds me of a character I played last year. She was an Eilistraeen priestess who was converted forcibly after killing one of Eilistraee's clerics (a bout of rage from the moody Dark Maiden). She carried out the will of Eilistraee, but went about it in the most brutal way possible by killing Lolthites instead of converting them, as she had rather bad anger issues. She fought herself often due to essentially being brainwashed, but I ended on the hopeful note of her mellowing out and founding a society sworn to defeating evil of all sorts with the help of a dragonwrought kobold sorcerer (a PC of mine from a previous adventure), a human rogue, and a young black dragon.

khadgar567
2016-11-09, 07:05 AM
Go ahead. :smallcool:
thanks mate