View Full Version : Optimization Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
PeteNutButter
2016-09-30, 08:52 PM
PeteNutButter's Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
This is a Multiclassing guide as a tool for beginners and seasoned players alike. Many single classed guides exist, which can go into more detail on each combination, but no guide has consolidated the bottom line up front, quick reference data until now. The aim is to examine the strengths, weaknesses, and viability of each multiclass combination from an optimization point of view, and to point out key breakpoints in classes.
In order to make broad judgements on class combinations some assumptions must be made. For this guide I am considering only published, in book, AL legal content. I am also assuming standard 27 point buy. Many of the negative ratings have MADness as a big factor, so take that with a grain of salt when rolling stats. It is best to reference the individual breakdown for your desired multiclass for more details. This is of course subjective, and I will update it, as needed.
If you feel I've egregiously offended your favorite multiclass, please leave a comment and justification, and I will recolor if the community supports it. The aim is not to have this be one guy's opinion, but a community resource. Please keep in mind the colors are based on the classes in general, not specific builds, although popular builds can affect ratings.
Most multiclasses fall into one of 3 categories. The first is to make a character better at their core competency. The second is to add versatility. The third is as a requirement to make your desired build work. Most multiclasses are a combination of 2 or 3 of these aims, but the second, to add versatility alone is generally weaker as it comes at the sacrifice of power.
A caster with multiple classes will have versatility but sacrifice higher level spells, and may end up feeling weaker once initiative is rolled. From a purely damage standpoint spells of level 3 or higher are pretty much a cap on damage, and scale according to slots. A multiclass caster who picks up other non-warlock caster levels may not suffer on damage as long as they have at least 5 levels in their core class, as slots will continue to progress.
ASIs are extremely strong, and generally add more to a character than most class features. It may not seem like much but adding +1 to hit and damage, or +1 to save DC has a large impact on a character throughout the course of an adventuring day. Feats as well such as GWM, SS, PAM, SM, etc greatly effect a character's prowess in combat. For these reasons it is highly discouraged to take 3 levels in a multiclass, or to leave a class one level before earning an ASI. This is more acceptable on a higher level character who already has their core stat at 20 and desired feats.
Since most classes get a huge swing at level 5, a common tip is to take 5 levels in a class before multiclassing, so as to pick up either extra attack or third level spells as soon as possible. There are some notable exceptions to this rule, such as gish builds starting fighter or paladin for a level or two, aiming to use SCAG cantrips instead of extra attack. Otherwise it is probably best to avoid delaying extra attack/3rd level spells by any more than 1 level.
x
Artificer
Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard
Artificer
x
Artificer/Barb
Artificer/Bard
Artificer/Cleric
Artificer/Druid
Artificer/Fighter
Artificer/Monk
Artificer/Paladin
Artificer/Ranger
Artificer/Rogue
Artificer/Sorc
Artificer/Warlock
Artificer/Wizard
Barbarian
Barb/Artificer
x
Barb/Bard
Barb/Cleric
Barb/Druid
Barb/Fighter
Barb/Monk
Barb/Paladin
Barb/Ranger
Barb/Rogue
Barb/Sorc
Barb/Warlock
Barb/Wizard
Bard
Bard/Artificer
` Bard/Barb
x
Bard/Cleric
Bard/Druid
Bard/Fighter
Bard/Monk
Bard/Paladin
Bard/Ranger
Bard/Rogue
Bard/Sorc
Bard/Warlock
Bard/Wizard
Cleric
Cleric/Artificer
Cleric/Barb
Cleric/Bard
x
Cleric/Druid
Cleric/Fighter
Cleric/Monk
Cleric/Paladin
Cleric/Ranger
Cleric/Rogue
Cleric/Sorc
Cleric/Warlock
Cleric/Wizard
Druid
Druid/Artificer
Druid/Barb
Druid/Bard
Druid/Cleric
x
Druid/Fighter
Druid/Monk
Druid/Paladin
Druid/Ranger
Druid/Rogue
Druid/Sorc
Druid/Warlock
Druid/Wizard
Fighter
Fighter/Artificer
Fighter/Barb
Fighter/Bard
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Druid
x
Fighter/Monk
Fighter/Paladin
Fighter/Ranger
Fighter/Rogue
Fighter/Sorc
Fighter/Warlock
Fighter/Wizard
Monk
Monk/Artificer
Monk/Barb
Monk/Bard
Monk/Cleric
Monk/Druid
Monk/Fighter
x
Monk/Paladin
Monk/Ranger
Monk/Rogue
Monk/Sorc
Monk/Warlock
Monk/Wizard
Paladin
Paladin/Artificer
Paladin/Barb
Paladin/Bard
Paladin/Cleric
Paladin/Druid
Paladin/Fighter
Paladin/Monk
x
Paladin/Ranger
Paladin/Rogue
Paladin/Sorc
Paladin/Warlock
Paladin/Wizard
Ranger
Ranger/Artificer
Ranger/Barb
Ranger/Bard
Ranger/Cleric
Ranger/Druid
Ranger/Fighter
Ranger/Monk
Ranger/Paladin
x
Ranger/Rogue
Ranger/Sorc
Ranger/Warlock
Ranger/Wizard
Rogue
Rogue/Artificer
Rogue/Barb
Rogue/Bard
Rogue/Cleric
Rogue/Druid
Rogue/Fighter
Rogue/Monk
Rogue/Paladin
Rogue/Ranger
x
Rogue/Sorc
Rogue/Warlock
Rogue/Wizard
Sorcerer
Sorc/Artificer
Sorc/Barb
Sorc/Bard
Sorc/Cleric
Sorc/Druid
Sorc/Fighter
Sorc/Monk
Sorc/Paladin
Sorc/Ranger
Sorc/Rogue
x
Sorc/Warlock
Sorc/Wizard
Warlock
Warlock/Artificer
Warlock/Barb
Warlock/Bard
Warlock/Cleric
Warlock/Druid
Warlock/Fighter
Warlock/Monk
Warlock/Paladin
Warlock/Ranger
Warlock/Rogue
Warlock/Sorc
x
Warlock/Wizard
Wizard
Wizard/Artificer
Wizard/Barb
Wizard/Bard
Wizard/Cleric
Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Fighter
Wizard/Monk
Wizard/Paladin
Wizard/Ranger
Wizard/Rogue
Wizard/Sorc
Wizard/Warlock
x
Gold You really can't go wrong here. These two just compliment each other so well.
Sky blue There are a lot of good class combinations here that can make for some solid builds.
Blue There is some clear synergy here, but not as much as Gold or Sky Blue. May take some optimization to ensure the multiclass adds to the build.
Black This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
Purple You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.
Red The lack of synergy here is just offensive. It's MAD. An experienced player might be able to make it work, but I'd recommend avoiding it altogether.
Most multiclassing involves dips or at the very least one class of greater level than the other. For this reason I have separated the multiclasses into dipping or adding to your core class. For the purpose of this guide a Fighter/Rogue represents a character with more levels in fighter than rogue, and Rogue/Fighter a character with more rogue levels than fighter. This is not at all dependent on the timing of the levels taken, for instance a wizard that takes his first level in fighter (then proceeds in wizard x) will be considered a Wizard/Fighter. This distinction is important as a character with 18 levels in wizard and 2 in fighter, behaves very differently than the inverse of Fighter 18/Wizard 2.
Additionally these definitions are fluid, and not necessarily based on a level 20 build since most characters have to be played from 1-x. For example a Cleric/Ranger that takes his first 5 levels in ranger, and the rest in cleric is by the standards of this guide a Ranger/Cleric up until level 11 (when his cleric levels pass up ranger thereby making him a Cleric/Ranger).
The Artificer is a versatile core class that can fill almost any roll, with steady but slow progression that can make multiclassing more attractive. As a half caster that rounds up instead of down, it synergizes well with caster dips especially those that also use Int. The potential use of Int for weapon attacks can make the class very SAD. The class's utility varies depending on the prevalence of found magic items in the game, becoming stronger if the game has few magic items, or slightly weaker if the party has a glut of loot. Each of the subclasses come with a new usage of bonus action, making the class an exceptional dip for those that lack regular bonus action usage.
Key Breakpoints: The class is fairly well streamlined with viable dips anywhere from 1-6.
Artificer/Barbarian
An Artificer that dips Barbarian picks up rage and some other useful perks. This dip requires some planning as rage and reckless attack would not work with a Battle Smith planning on use Int to attack. Instead you'd need some MADness, requiring a solid strength. Arcane Jolt while raging is nice, but since its uses are based on Int, making the combination is just too MAD too pull off easily.
Artificer/Bard
An Artificer that dips bard is likely aiming to enhance their ability to support the party, picking up inspiration, and some spells to add to their list. The MADness and spell list overlap keeps this from excelling.
Artificer/Cleric
An artificer that dips cleric can pick up a variety of domain abilities, potentially heavy armor and weapon proficiencies, as well as some additional spells. Despite the MADness there are some very attractive options here such as a single level in Life cleric.
Artificer/Druid
An Artificer that dips druid gains some expanded spells, and likely a subclass feature, at the steep cost of losing metal armor. This is risky, and MAD, probably best reserved for picking up some more supportive druid circles.
Artificer/Fighter
An Artificer dipping fighter is picking up proficiencies, potentially action surge, and maybe some subclass abilities. An early fighter dip is a great way to use heavy armor for increased long-term AC, while action surge is always strong. This is likely best for Battle Smiths looking to pick up thta heavy armor and enhance their combat abilities.
Artificer/Monk
An artificer dipping monk is gaining monk stuff which doesn't work in armor. This is MAD, and I cannot see any attractive reason for this option. Monk features would crowd the already busy bonus action, and seriously gimp an artificer's potential AC.
Artificier/Paladin
An Artificer that dips Paladin picks up heavy armor (if at first level), martial weapons, and probably smite. This is pretty MAD, and although smite is strong on any class with slots, being both half casters, slots would never be too numerous.
Artificer/Ranger
An artificer dipping ranger is probably aiming to pick up a ranger subclass feature. Hunter's Mark may seem attractive, but the bonus action is too busy with the Artificer. It's a bit MAD. But 13 dex is easy to manage with medium armor already, and the 13 wisdom isn't too bad, being an important save.
Artificer/Rogue
An Artificer dipping rogue can become quite the skill monkey. Sneak attack is also a great too, which can even work with a battle smith's int attacks.
Artificer/Sorc
An Artificer dipping Sorcerer gains some different spells, some subclass features, and potentially metamagic. This is MAD, and provides little benefit that can't be achieved through wizard.
Artificer/Warlock
An Artificer dipping Warlock gains some different spells and slots, along with potentially useful invocations. The MADness keeps this from excelling.
Artificer/Wizard
An Artificer that dips wizard gains spell slots, spells, and likely a subclass feature. This is SAD and extremely versatile.
Barbarian is a fine class to keep as your core class within decent upgrades throughout its career and a fantastic capstone. To get the most of the class's features you are restricted to medium or less armor and str attacks. Dex based barbarians are still somewhat viable though, being able to benefit from the resistances while raging (but not the damage bonus). The inability to cast or concentrate on spells while raging, puts a big damper on multiclassing with any casters. As with any melee, it's best to avoid doubling up on abilities that don't stack, such as extra attack from other classes. Finally the requirements of a decent str, dex, and con make any multiclass needing a casting stat MAD.
Key breakpoints are: levels 1-4 for dips, 5 (extra attack), 6 path feature, and then any level with an ASI.
Barb/Artificer
Dipping artificer gives access to a variety of tools, and magic items. This can be immensely helpful in a magic item light game, or to give you a regular bonus action usage. The MADness keeps it from being rated better.
Barbarian/Bard
http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook-files/imgs/savage.jpg
You might call this a Skald, as their pure fury is a performance. A barbarian taking bard levels might have been inspired by his own ferocity in battle to take his deeds to song or story. It is not a stretch, as a great deal of emotion is required to rage, and can be channeled into other forms.
Dipping bard gives jack of all trades for a decent boost to skills and ability checks. He can also toss out bardic inspiration while raging, but would likely get no more than a couple a day, due to the MADness. Other than those marginal benefits, he cannot cast while raging, losing most of the benefit of MCing into a caster class, as a core barbarian should spend most fights in his rage. This combination is used for niche grappler builds who want advantage on grapple, expertise on athletics, and cutting words, keeping it from being purple. With the release of Xanathar's guide, taking a swords bard as a dip 3-5 can potentially add a lot more use to a barbarian. The MADness of needing charisma, still keeps this from being better.
Half Elf
Barbarian 5+/Swords Bard 5
16, 14, 14, 8, 10, 14
This build is straight forward, utilizing rage, extra attack, reckless attack with blade flourishes. The barbarian's enhanced crit chance (9.5%) via at will advantage pairs well with blade flourishes, while the potential AC boost does a good job of negating the drawback of reckless attack. Remember if you critically hit with a blade flourish that die is doubled as well, adding 2d6/8 to your AC. Alternatively a barbarian expecting to see only level 8 might take lore bard, to give themselves a reaction use in cutting words. Spells can be used between fights, or when not raging, which limits their usefulness.
Barbarian/Cleric
http://i.imgur.com/KeSu7ki.jpg
You might call this a Fanatic, a barbarian who takes his faith to the next level or finds new faith might begin to take levels in cleric. Perhaps a barbarian feels they are favored by their god or in some way bound to their diety. This pairs excellently with the Path of the Zealot.
Dipping cleric gives some useful domain abilities that can be used while raging, and some out of combat healing when not raging. The domain abilities are varied and mostly useful, keeping this from being purple. Long term non-concentration buffs like Aid are surprisingly useful, especially since rage resistance effectively doubles their hit point effects.
Human V.
16, 14, 14, 8, 13, 8
Barbarian 5/Cleric x
There are a number of ways to max this useful. The Storm Herald barbarian is relatively weak, but if he managed to couple it with 6 levels of Tempest cleric he can have a near at will push every bonus action. Any barbarian can take 1 or 2 levels in War cleric to make a couple extra attacks and have that +10 to hit channel divinity. A single level in Forge cleric can give the barbarian a magic weapon or armor.
Barbarian/Druid
https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0324/95/1401603542288.jpg
You might call this a Wild Avenger, a barbarian more attuned to nature than his peers. Many barbarians, especially totem barbarians are already akin to nature, so stepping over into druid can be a natural transition.
Dipping druid gives some out of combat healing or utilty, and wildshape. Moon druid wildshape may be tempting at lower level, but a core barbarian quickly outpaces the capabilities of a CR 1 creature. The MADness, added armor restriction, and little real benefits make this better left alone. The circles of dreams and shepherd add some new abilities to this potential multiclass, but still fall a little short. The shepherd totems have too much redundancy with existing barbarian features, and the dreams healing is based on druid level, which is probably never going to be that high. If you are desperate for a healing word type ability that you can use while raging, it's an alright choice, as long as you don't give up too much AC by losing metal armor.
Mountain Dwarf
Barbarian Battlerager 6+/Druid 2
16, 14, 16, 9, 13, 8
The battlerager's spiked armor specifically says it need not be metal, so it's a easy way to get 14 AC medium armor and keep with the non-metal armor rule. If you buy barding and have an ally willing to help you could have a spiked armored bear, which is worth it's weight in cool points, and bears weigh a lot. (Claw, Bite, Spike!) The level 6 Battlerager ability gives you temporary hit points equal to con modifier that is potentially increased by wild shape. That along with rage helps keep the bear's low health at that level viable. You could also make it a hill dwarf and go heavier into the casting side of druid, but the deeper you go into druid, the higher the value of spells vs rage, creating greater competition for best action.
Barbarian/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c8/34/2c/c8342cb5d7f7d0cc0bdee4d53a1064fa--creature-fantasy-fantasy-warrior.jpg
You might call this barbarian a War Rager, a barbarian who has taken the time to train in the more regimented ways of the fighter can be a more disciplined barbarian, who perhaps has spent some time with other fighters or among civilization, calming his unbridled fury.
Dipping fighter offers some great benefits: A fighting style, action surge, and either increased crit (synergizing excellently with reckless attack), or maneuvers. Best avoiding Eldritch Knight, as spells cannot be cast or maintained whilst raging. 1-4 levels of this adds a lot to the core barbarian.
Half Orc
Barbarian 5+/Fighter 4
17, 14, 16, 8, 10, 8
This is commonly combined with champion for the obvious potential to get plenty of crits. Orcish Fury feat goes well with crit fishing builds, and gets that strength to 18. Battle Master is also a great choice for Great Weapon Master builds, using precision attack to ensure those -5/+10 attacks hit.
Barbarian/Monk
http://www.raydillon.com/Images/Illustration/ConceptPaintings/Wolverine.jpg
You might call this a Brawler, a barbarian who takes prefers to engage his foes with bare hands. The discipline required to take on the way of the monk life, might be in conflict with the barbarian nature, but not all monk orders are the same. Perhaps this barbarian spent some time in a monastery, or perhaps they learn to tap an inner disciplined rage.
Dipping monk gives little on the surface. Unarmored defenses don't stack, and many monk abilities don't function if the barbarian is in armor or wielding a non-monk weapon. Ki abilities still work, granting a bonus action dodge, disengage, or flurry (likely 1+str damage). But the limited use, and the maximum MADness (4 13s) make this better left to the herioc and niche builds.
Tortle
Barbarian 5+/Monk 4
17, 13, 14, 9, 14, 8
This build uses the Tortle's racial armor class of 17 to completely get around all the weaknesses of this multiclass combination. Going with a strength build allows the brawler to recklessly attack and add their rage damage to each attack. The racial unarmed strikes of 1d4 keep the full damage of a monk of 4 or lower while still using a greatsword/maul. Flurry of blows and ki dodge, both work well with rage. A 5th level in monk might even be worth it for stunning strike, despite the overlap on extra attack. Kensei works well with this build if wanting to stick with a longsword/battleaxe.
Barbarian/Paladin
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/43/af/e8/43afe84b425d28873065dc0c7f44f6e4--woman-warrior-fantasy-warrior.jpg
You might call these The Wrathful. Nothing compares to righteous wrath of barbarian/paladin. They have both unbound fury and total devotion to their case. A barbarian who takes levels in paladin might have good reason to take on a new cause with a religious fervor. Vengeance paladins fit this well thematically as the oath aligns well with barbarians furious nature. This would be an obvious dip choice for Zealot barbarians.
Dipping paladin picks up a fighting style and smite at level 2, which can both help a core barbarian. While smite can be used while raging for some fantastic nova damage, the limited slots encourage such a character to pick up a third full caster class. The MADness and conflicts of progression prevent this from being blue. The options opened up by making caster classes a not so awful choice keeps it from being purple.
Half Elf
Barbarian 5+/Paladin 2/cha caster x
16, 14, 14, 8, 10, 14
This tri-classed build seems the best way to gain the full benefit of the smite feature. Warlock might be the most mechanically beneficial. If blade pact is taken, this build can paladin smite and eldritch smite on a crit and deal potentially +20d8 or more, all while holding the full benefits of rage resistance.
Barbarian/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f3/86/22/f3862222e49bc41a889a6a86641b8291--fantasy-images-fantasy-art.jpg
You might call this a Warden, a wild warrir who has taken his attunement to nature a step further. The warden is the scout that subs as a ferocious quick striking warrior whenever necessary. A barbarian's already wild nature, especially totem barbarians, lends itself to easy multiclassing into ranger.
Dipping ranger gives another skill, a fighting style at level 2, and subclass ability at level 3. This isn't a bad option but the big draw for damage increase is hunter's mark, which doesn't work while raging. Fortunately, the Xanathar subclasses Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer both offer bonus action uses that work while raging. Between those and the fighting style it makes this multiclass blue.
Human V.
Barbarian 5+/Ranger 4
16, 14, 14, 9, 13, 8
This class breakdown won't change. The 5th level in ranger is a complete waste. Pretty much anything else is viable. If you don't have a feat or barbarian subclass that makes usage of your bonus action, monster slayer and horizon walker are both great choices adding to your overall damage output more than increasing barbarian levels would. If you do have a good usage of your bonus action, taking Gloomstalker or Hunter (for preferably hordebreaker) are great options fore more attacks.
Barbarian/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/64/f4/db/64f4db0368f4ade9377cf00f48289c39--conan-barbarian-red-sonja.jpg
You might call this a Thug, a warrior that can sneak into your house, smash your things and then wake you up by breaking your legs.
Dipping rogue offers expertise (likely athletics), cunning action, and possibly an archetype. Stealth abilities can work well with a barbarian with a high enough con not wearing any armor. This dip is fantastic for tank barbarians who use a shield, as a rapier can benefit from both rage damage and sneak attack as long as the barbarian attacks with str. The expertise can see a lot of use with either shield master or grapple builds. This rating drops significantly if the barbarian is a 2hander type barb, but can still be viable as a way to farm crits with assassin, and barbarian's increased critical damage. There are better options though, as relying on surprise with a spell-less melee is rarely worth the multiclass.
Human V.
Barbarian 5/Rogue x
16, 14, 16, 8, 10, 8
This build is a basic setup for raging sneak attacking. Start with shield master and take expertise in athletics. Knock foes prone,
with advantage and expertise to ensure sneak attack with the rapier. Resistance plus the eventual uncanny dodge, can have this barbarian being one of the hardest to kill forces out there. Alternate builds include grappling or a more dex focused build which would be best paired with a darkvision race.
Barbarian/Sorc
https://img00.deviantart.net/2899/i/2014/105/4/e/crimson_mage__mtg_by_izzymedrano-d7elepx.jpg
You might call this a Fire Blood, or another name based on the sorcerous heritage, a barbarian that discovers latent innate magical powers in their blood might begin to take sorcerer levels.
Dipping sorcerer doesn't offer much. There are a couple longer duration, non-concentration spells that can be used with rage, such as false life, but that would be better obtained through warlock. The mage armor/scales are pretty useless as a barbarian would be better off just boosting con to 16. Shield spell and melee cantrips are a poor choice on a character that should be raging. There is really very little reason to dip this class over any other. The MADness drives it to red.
Half Elf
Barbarian 5/Paladin 2/Sorcerer x
16, 14, 14, 8, 10, 14
This only way to really make this viable is in conjunction with a paladin's divine smite giving you something to do with those spell slots while raging. Draconic Sorcerer offers more of the much needed hp, so is likely the best option.
Barbarian/Warlock
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/17/be/f1/17bef17fffa9ef75feb3fd0773da1cb4--the-soul-game-art.jpg
You might call this a Rage Blade, a barbarian who for some reason, either noble or selfish, has sought out a power to make a pact with, usually to further strengthen their martial abilities.
Dipping warlock gives a few boosts that could be worth the investment. Invocations, such as devil's sight and false life at will can be useful. Temporary hit points such as those from false life, Armor of Agathys, and Fiend Patron, see extra mileage as its twice as effective if you have resistance to the damage you are sustaining. But the MADness and lack of scaling on the abilities from a dip, prevents this from being blue. It works much better as a Warlock/Barbarian.
Half Elf
Barbarian 5/Blade Pact Warlock x
16, 14, 14, 8, 10, 14
This is a basic barbarian warlock build. It uses invocations such as improved pact weapon, and eventually eldritch smite to boost damage output while raging. Armor of Agathys is a fine choice of a spell, although with primarily barbarian levels, it won't last long,
even with rage resistance. Hexblade is a less powerful option on this build, compared to other martials as reckless attacking requires a strength attack.
Barbarian/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6b/35/09/6b35096d19641535b1a39f9b870cdeb2--red-sonja-fantasy-illustration.jpg
You might call this a Rage Mage, a barbarian who has taken on the finer study of magic. It's an uncommon deviation for a barbarian, perhaps they've received a boon or item that permanently raised their intelligence, or perhaps they have always had a knack for learning magic, that only later could be explored to fruition.
Dipping wizard doesn't offer much. There are a couple longer duration, non-concentration spells that can be used with rage, such as longstrider and false life, but there are better gained elsewhere. The various level 2 abilities can be neat, but the only one that is really worth it is the War Wizard. Even that struggles due to the MADness. Look elsewhere if you are a barbarian. If you want to play a warrior/wizard, use fighter.
Human V.
Barbarian 5+/War Wizard 2
16, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8
This one isn't bad, uses the two levels in war wizard for a permanent reaction to give +2 AC, or +4 to a save. Since rage prevents spell casting the abiltiy to gain a small shield spell that is usable while raging is a good addition. It can use its spellbook to cast a decent variety of rituals out of combat, including the gaining of an owl familiar to aid one attack a round.
The bard class is an extremely versatile core class that only requires a good cha to operate well. The class is capable of operating as a skill monkey, a front-line fighter, an archer, a controller, a blaster or a healer all without the need to even multiclass. Multiclasses tend to be focused on either accentuating a decided roll or shoring up weaknesses. As a full caster, any MC suffers the loss of spells known and possibly spell slots. Many Bard multiclasses tend to take advantage of the magical secrets, providing earlier access to ranger/paladin spells in combination with other spell casting classes.
Key breakpoints are: 2 (jack of all trades, which works for skills and initiative), 3(cutting words+skills+blade flourishes), 4 (ASI) for dips, 5 (inspiration short rest recharge), and 6(college feature), and 10, 14(magical secrets).
Bard/Artificer
A bard that dips artificer gains access to some tools, med armor and shields, magic item access, and some minor spells. It's a bit MAD, but the odd level stacking makes it quite functional, with just a 3 level dip.
Bard/Barbarian
http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook-files/imgs/savage.jpg
You might call this a Skald, as their pure fury is a performance. A bard taking barbarian levels is in touch with his or her inner fury, able to channel that into a powerful rage. Heavy metal bards apply here.
A bard that dips barbarian, probably takes their first level in barbarian for the free proficiencies and extra hit points. With the Swords bard from Xanathar's guide this becomes a viable option, despite the MADness. The MADness and loss of spells while raging make this black.
Half Elf
Barbarian 1/Bard 6
16, 14, 14, 8, 10, 14
This build starts in barbarian for con saves and extra hit points, and then ventures into bard for the next 6 or more levels for extra attack. Getting extra attack two levels later than the standard is a bit of a delay, but he repays it with blade flourishes that recharge on a short rest and work while raging. This build would then likely continue into barbarian to 4, to gain reckless attack, a subclass, and another much needed ASI, perhaps in cha. It's viable for both TWF and dueling Sword and board builds, but TWF would make the delayed extra attack less painful.
Bard/Cleric
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/59/85/ed/5985ed26abc0b2c79b1fd0707166bdeb--fantasy-characters-female-characters.jpg
You might call this an Evangelist, a one who uses their sway and charisma to spread their religion. A bard might take levels in cleric if they are chosen by their god, or gain a newfound faith.
Dipping cleric gives a variety of features depending on domain. It is MAD requiring a 13 wis, but benefits are varied and numerous. A heavy armor domain can negate the bard's need for dex reducing its MADness, and without the cost of lost spell slots. Any domain combined with the proper magical secrets can be quite powerful. Several domains grant skills, augmenting the skill monkey. The common life cleric 1/lore bard 6+ is now more or less obsolete with the introduction of Healing Spirit spell. The optimization required, and slight MADness keep it from being gold.
Half Elf
Bard 6+/Cleric 2
9, 14, 16, 8, 13, 16
This build or a strength variant for heavy armor is the basic setup for a variety of Evangelists. A Lore/Knowledge combination can be the ultimate skill monkey. With the right spells stolen, tempest cleric could put out some serious damage. For a swords bard, Forge or War domains coudl be quite potent.
Bard/Druid
https://ucfant3145f09-05.wikispaces.com/file/view/bard.jpg/107333565/bard.jpg
You might call this a Windspeaker, or a similar name, one whose magic has taken on the natural song in all things. A bard whose attuned to nature or aligned with a druid circle might begin to take druid levels. While a druid who has learned to meld his magic with song might begin to take bard levels. Many Harpers are Windspeakers.
Dipping druid offers little, other than different spells and potentially some other team supporting effects from the circles of Dreams and Shepherd, all at the cost of progression, metal armor, and a 13 wis. Wild shape will be largely combat ineffective, even a Moon Druid's, as it scales poorly. The only thing keeping this from being red, is the niche uses that it might see. Generally best avoided.
Half Elf
Bard 6+/Druid 2
8, 16, 14, 9, 13, 16
This build is dipping druid for a touch of nature magic. The best use here is probably for a support focused bard to pick up the spirit totem from the circle of the shepherd. Overall the bard will probably get more mileage out of a cleric dip, but doing both wouldn't be horrible, provided you're ok with being behind on spells known.
Bard/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/aa/e2/70aae21448f9ae503f20185722841814.jpg
You might call this a Wardrummer, or another named based on the particuler performance skills. A wardrummer is a bard who has taken the time to get in depth martial training, gaining the ability to make better use of their weapons and perhaps wear heavier armor.
Dipping fighter offers a lot. The fighter level is best taken as the first level for the character to grant proficiency in con saves and heavy armor, which are both fantastic for any bard. Fighter 2 can be taken immediately or after several bard levels, for action surge. Valor or Swords Bards may be interested in fighter 3-4 for archetype and ASI. Eldritch Knight is a way for a bard to get shield spell, without taking sorcerer levels or using a magical secret, while the other archetypes augment the bard's fighting prowess.
Mountain Dwarf
Champion 4/Swords Bard 6+
17, 8, 14, 8, 10, 15
This wardrummer starts with his first level in fighter for con saves and heavy armor, and then takes bard until extra attack. The champion ability combines well with blade flourish giving them increased crit chance on those extra flourish dice, and potentially doubling that AC boost. First ASI in str and cha makes up for the low starting cha. TWF or dueling style are both available in conjunction with defense fighting style from fighter. He has plenty of buffs for both himself and his team, and he can wade into the front with a couple wardrums strapped to him for added coolness.
Bard/Monk
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/ae/57/6cae5711307dd024ae4fd69b03d2475a.jpg
You might call this a Death Dancer or something similar. Some monks have mastered their body to make it so their fluid movements in combat are a musical ballet. Perhaps their attacks have a rhythmic timing. If they are fond of weapons, they might be mistaken for a Bladesinger.
Dipping monk is MAD and confused. I am rating this red until someone gives a viable reason to combine these classes. There is no inherit synergy, and many monk features require no armor. The MADness is what really breaks it. Anything this combination does could probably be better accomplished with different classes.
Drow
Swords Bard 6+/Monk 4
8, 17, 12, 8, 15, 14
This build could work with a Kensei or Drunken Master. Basic build combines the best martial features from swords bard and those of the monk. It's passable.
Bard/Paladin
http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook-files/imgs/combat.jpg
You might call this a Battle Hymnist, a bard who has taken up fervent cause that uses his song and stories to inspire his companions. A bard might find a new cause after a traumatic event, or have reason to seek vengeance. Whatever the reason, this bard makes an oath that forever alters her perception of the world.
Dipping just two levels of paladin gives a fantastic boost to his melee damage output potential via smite. Taking Paladin first for a heavy armor str build reduces any MADness of the MC and helps make it a solid front liner. Smite with any cha based full caster is a recipe for gold, and bard is no different.
Human V.
Paladin 2-4/Swords Bard 6+
16, 8, 14, 8, 10, 16
This is your basic paladin 2 bard x build with blade flourishes, plenty of smites and buffs to go around. A great build all around.
Alternatively, bards without extra attack would want to take paladin all the way to 6 for +cha to saves. If going S&B mixing in a level of hexblade at some point makes the character SAD.
PeteNutButter
2016-09-30, 08:53 PM
Bard/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/80/da/0d80da656086f69d190a3b6e70b63178.jpg
You might call this a Songbow, a bard whose music and arrows become one, with arrows that strike like perfect notes. A bard might find himself taking ranger levels if he has spent time surviving outdoors alone or perhaps among other rangers.
Dipping ranger gives a skill, some different spells, a fighting style, and potentially a level 3 subclass ability. Best left for valor or swords bards, or caster bards wanting 5 levels in another class for extra attack. There are worse ways too boost combat efficiency, but MADness of cha, wis, and dex make it hard for the character to excel at anything. Archery fighting style is appealing for archer bards, but best picked up through fighter.
Half Elf
Swords Bard 10+/Hunter 3+
8, 16, 14, 8, 13, 16
This is your basic bardic archer using swift quiver to shoot out a number of attacks. Taking on hunter instead of fighter for archery style is a little MAD, but the extra attack potential with horde breaker can be quite potent.
Bard/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9e/8c/e6/9e8ce6b27cd8c29734694c6fe6cc2d54--character-portraits-character-art.jpg
You might call this an Infiltrator or Mole. None are quite so adept at getting on the inside of an organization and mucking about when no one is looking. A bard just has to take some time to focus on his more mundane capabilities to start taking levels in rogue.
Dipping rogue gives a skill, thieves' tools, and cunning action. A third level grants an archetype. This is best suited for ore martially focus bards. This combination is a solid way to make an ultimate skill monkey, with plenty of skills and expertise. Sneak attack works with your ranged and finesse weapons. You may find the overlap excessive though, lacking a powerful choice for all your expertise.
Human V.
Swords Bard 6/Rogue 1+
8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
This swords bard gets the full benefits of his extra attack and blade flourishes on top sneak attack dice. Best suited for two-weapon fighting, this one can put out a fair bit of damage, and has the defense boosted by the flourishes. Arcane Trickster would make for a good addition, getting shield spell for great usage out of those low level bard slots.
Bard/Sorcerer
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/5a/ac/ae5aac8821308c93cd4c1a5d40ec06d8.jpg
You might call this the Natural. This bard's talents likely all came to him all to easily. He never had to try, as his sorcerous blood gave him an edge, often unbeknownst to him. Any bard can have that smirk, but none like the natural do it so well. Be careful around this one, as their subtle magic, makes you never quite sure if you can trust yourself. A bard who learns to tap his or her latent sorcerous blood can start taking levels in sorcerer.
Dipping sorcerer gives shield spell at first level for added defense, permanent mage armor via draconic scales, and then metamagic at 3rd level. Metamagic is a great way for any full spell caster to boost versatility, and many bards seek out sorcerer just for the ability to make their spells subtle. Since bards are cha based as well the SADness makes this even more appealing. Taking more than few levels in sorcerer costs the bard high level spells, but too few levels in sorcerer will likely feel short on sorcery points to power the metamagic. Those limitations are the only thing keeping this from being gold.
Half Elf
Lore Bard 6+/Sorcerer 4+
8, 16, 16, 8, 10, 16
This one simple. Take any 3rd level or lower spell in the game, and apply any metamagic to it. The possibilities are endless. For the sorcerous origin, draconic is a good choice for the extra AC and hit points, but shadow might serve a more subtle bard well.
Bard/Warlock
http://i.imgur.com/NWGhml4.jpg
You might call this a Chained Singer. A bard who was not content with the mere mortal bardic prowess, but sought out a pact with a more powerful being. The nature of the pact may vary greatly, depending on the patron, but none can sing like a devil like a bard/warlock. Not every bard wins that fiddle of gold.
Dipping warlock gives the full blasting capability of warlock in just two levels. Eldritch blast with agonizing and possibly repelling blast, immediately fixes the bard's innate lack of powerful at will blasting. Both are cha based, making this SAD. The warlock slots are great for some short rest recovery, at the cost of higher level bard spells and slots. With the addition of hexblade, this becomes even better, potentially gaining substantial AC from shield and medium armor, access to the shield spell, and cha to attack and damage with 1handed weapons, all in just 1 level. Archer bards would require 3 levels, but the SADness is more than worth it.
Half Elf
Swords Bard 6/Hexblade 4+
8, 16, 16, 8, 8, 17
This is your basic hexblade archer or blaster. Take elven accuracy and combine it with devil's sight for some devastating damage output. Sharpshooter is a bonus that won't be missed with tri-vantage.
Bard/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e1/c8/e3/e1c8e38bbd1ca352a2ff911eef705acc--character-concept-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this the Lore Keeper, a bard who has expanded their breadth of magical knowledge into the world of wizardy. This would require the bard to spend or have spent some time with wizards or at least a spell book.
Dipping wizard gives access to some neat wizard features, and some increased spell selection, but at the significant cost of their spells known progression. As it stands a bard can potentially "steal" wizard spells at levels 6, 10, 14, and 18, which greatly devalues this multiclass. The MADness drives it into the negatives, meaning this is best left for niche builds.
Half Elf
Swords Bard 6+/War Wizard 2+
8, 16, 14, 13, 9, 16
This swords bard paid the MAD price of 13 int for the dip into war wizard, giving a free permanent +2 AC or +4 to a save as a reaction. With another 8 wizard levels he could get a near permanent +2 AC, as any full caster should spend as much time in combat as possible concentrating on a spell.
The cleric is a fantastic base class, than presents a variety of powerful options including strong buffs, powerful domain features, and the best healing spells. With the right domain selection a cleric can perform as a tank, a healer, a controller, or even a blaster. The versatility provided by full spells known makes the cleric able to easily switch or split rolls when preparing spells.
Key breakpoints for dips are levels 1 and 2 providing the only feat-less access to heavy armor after level 1, and giving some strong domain features.
Cleric/Art
Dipping artificer gives different spells, and potential bonus action utility. This is a solid dip if taken at first level to provide con save proficiency without a loss in spell slot progression.
Cleric/Barbarian
http://i.imgur.com/KeSu7ki.jpg
You might call this a Fanatic, a cleric who is finished with the niceties of civilized society, and demands immediate results or conversions.
Dipping barbarian sacrifices full spell casting progression in favor of normally relatively weak melee abilities. A cleric who wants to act as a front-liner could be interested in taking this as far as level 5 for extra attack, but in doing so greatly limits their options in combat. A raging cleric, is likely just a bad barbarian, since the bulk of his cleric features are in his spells which can't be cast while raging. A cleric looking for extra attack is best looking elsewhere.Human V.
16, 14, 14, 8, 13, 8
Storm Rager 5/Tempest Cleric 6+
The Storm Herald barbarian is relatively weak, but if he managed to couple it with 6 levels of Tempest cleric he can have a near at will push every bonus action. By 8th level in cleric he is also adding an extra 1d8 thunder damage per round. It is conflicted, with rage and spells, but can serve as a good front-liner.
Cleric/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/59/85/ed/5985ed26abc0b2c79b1fd0707166bdeb--fantasy-characters-female-characters.jpg
You might call this an Evangelist, one who uses their sway and charisma to spread their religion. A cleric might take levels in bard to bolster his ability to perform for his flock.
Dipping bard gives jack of all trades, possible cutting words, or could even take it as far as a level 6 college feature. Bard can augment the cleric's often supportive role. The MADness keeps this from being any better than blue.
Half Elf
Knowledge Cleric 5+/Lore Bard 4
8, 14, 14, 10, 16, 14
This is your ultimate support skill monkey build with plenty of skills and expertise to go around, backed up by some solid healing and buffing capabilities, and cutting words to help keep your allies alive.
Cleric/Druid
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/db/21/bb/db21bb78c178afdd5c04f471d4beb76f--druid-shaman-woman.jpg
You might call this a shaman. A cleric whose religious path has put them in tune with nature allowing them access to a different sort of magic. This transition is an easy shift if it is a nature cleric as their god is already bringing them closer to nature.
Dipping druid gives access to some different spells and wildshape for bit of versatility, at the cost of metal armor restriction and delayed cleric spells. The common tactic here is for a life cleric to pick up druid for goodberry spell and now healing spirit, for great low level and out of combat healing. Shillelagh spell is nice for a melee cleric, but could also be achieved through nature domain. Produce flame is a solid attack roll cantrip, which clerics lack. The metal armor restriction will be costly on a cleric, who likely won't have higher than a 16 dex for most (if not all) of their career, with their ASIs going to wisdom. The SADness keeps it blue.
Human V.
Life Cleric 5+/Shepherd Druid 3
8, 16, 16(resilient con), 8, 16, 8
This is your ultimate healer, able to cast goodberry and healing spirit for obscene amounts of healing, both in and out of combat. Any druid circle could do this well. Dreams is tempting for more healing, but I find it's handful of d6s aren't worth as much as the buffs granted by the spirit totems from the shepherd druid.
Cleric/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/df/88/37/df88378ef8c9fd447d1bb34d73070192--fantasy-warrior-fantasy-male.jpg
You might call this a War Priest or Battle Cleric. A cleric who takes some time to focus on their more martial cabalities or perhaps began their life as a simple fighter, and later picked up the mantle of faith.
Dipping fighter is best when taking the fighter level first for con save proficiency. Heavy armor could also help if the intent is to take a domain which doesn't normally give it. Defense style is great for added tankiness. Second level of fighter grants action surge, which is great on any build. If a cleric really wanted to act as a front-liner 5-6 levels of fighter gives extra attack and another ASI, at the cost of some heavy casting loss.
Human V.
Fighter 1/Forge Cleric 6+
16, 10, 14, 8, 16, 8
This cleric starts with first level in fighter to shore up defenses and allow access to martial weapons. This is great for any cleric as it gives con save proficiency, but is of extra value to those that lack heavy armor and martial weapons. At some point in this character's career they will want to pick up a second fighter level for action surge. I chose Forge domain for the example build as it is has a damage boost to and potentially 2 more AC than any other cleric with its level 6 feature and +1 armor/shield it makes. A single level of fighter adds another point of AC with the defense fighting style, making this character's sitting AC 23 without any real magic items.
Cleric/Monk
https://archive.is/TRcCP/8f90b75d0ba06e7bfab33dc99a09c871e1994076.jpg
You might call this a Sacred Fist. A cleric and monk whose prayer and meditation have melded into a worship that brings zen. A cleric might begin taking monk levels if they spend time in a monastery or even spend too long meditating. A monk might take cleric levels if their meditation leads them to a higher power.
Dipping monk could potentially end up with an increase in AC, along with some movement speed benefits and slightly better melee capability. The more levels in cleric, the less viable the melee becomes, as spells steadily outweigh them. If the cleric takes monk all the way to 5 for extra attack this becomes significantly more viable. There is no reason this couldn't work, although the inverse, Monk/Cleric may perform better.
Wood Elf
Monk 5/Cleric 5+
8, 17, 15, 8, 16, 8
Five levels in monk isn't much of a dip, but there really isn't much reason to go into monk if you aren't going to get at least 5 levels for extra attack. Even if you maxed dex and wis, you'd still only have the same AC as nonmagical plate and shield. With 5 levels you get stunning strike and extra attack, effectively functioning as a full monk, but backed up by the rest of your levels as full cleric. Nature cleric is a good bet, allowing you to use shillelagh to boost wisdom before dex, giving it to both your weapon attacks and stun/spell DCs.
Cleric/Paladin
https://orig00.deviantart.net/8112/f/2013/274/6/0/prayer_paladin_by_elle_shengxuan_shi-d6orcm2.jpg
You might call this The Devoted. Clerics and paladins who have blurred the lines between their deity and their devotion. A commoner might not be able to tell the difference between a cleric and paladin, the devoted make that even more difficult. Any paladin that serves a deity can naturally transition into cleric levels and any cleric can take up an oath to become a paladin.
Dipping paladin gives a fantastic boost to his melee damage potential with smite and a fighting style at paladin 2. The cost is a little MADness and slightly delayed spell progression. The build may find itself extra MAD, if it wants to pick up extra attack and + cha to saves at paladin 5 and 6. The MADness and overlap between spell lists keeps it from being rated higher.
Human V. (PAM)
Paladin 2/Death Cleric 6+
16, 8, 14, 8, 14, 13
This build can hit really hard and potentially NOVA harder than a paladin/sorcerer. With PAM he puts out two attacks that deal 1d6/4+4+5d8+17 for an average combined damage of 93 damage. That's decent NOVA damage.
Cleric/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/66/9f/ef669f78d70c2443a3d28c246f5729cd.jpg
You might call this a Spirit Guide or perhaps an Undead Slayer, capable of guiding others both in the wild and in spiritual matters. Clerics might begin taking ranger levels when tasked to hunt down those who have offended their god and church, or perhaps they merely took the time to become familiarized with the wild.
Dipping ranger enhances weapon attacks, gives a fighting style, different spells, and some good hunter abilities. If a cleric intends to get extra attack, ranger is probably the smoothest route to it. The first level in ranger is a bit weak, but the rest are good up until level 5. Since its a 1/2 caster, you lose less than fighter, and the stats are not MAD, except possibly the dex. Goodberry is fantastic when paired with life cleric. Absorb Elements is good for anyone as a great defense boost for things like enemy spells and breath weapons.
Human V.
Ranger 5/Cleric 5+
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This is the simplest build out there and can be taken in a variety of orders with a variety of subclasses, but ultimately 5 levels of ranger is desired. It's not worth the dip if you don't get extra attack, and it isn't worth taking to level 6. Can go nature cleric or MI for shillelagh to become SAD. Can start with only 13 dex and use strength build to utilize heavy armor, saving a couple stat points, or go with a classic archer build. Can work with ranger 5 first or cleric 5 first. For this example build, I'd start with the Sharpshooter feat and tack on war cleric to turn misses into hits.
Cleric/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/87/96/8d/87968da70f77b3d6fb4bcbe46abd1e50--character-concept-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this a Divine Trickster, a cleric whose talents are not limited to the churchly norms. Such a cleric may have had a rough past or picked up rogue skills in the aid of his god.
Dipping rogue gives, a skill, thieves' tools, and cunning action at level two. Sneak attack can help, as well as the proficiency with better finesse weapons. There is some obvious synergy here with domains such as trickery, and could even lend itself well for a ranged war cleric using Sharpshooter feat to pull off big hitting sneak attacks. So long as it was intended from the start, the dex requirement shouldn't be MAD.
Ghostwise Halfling
Arcane Trickster 3/Trickery Cleric 8+
8, 16, 14, 12, 16, 8
Trickery Cleric suffers a lot as a base class with its reliance on dex for medium armor, but no martial weapon proficiency. It's level 8 divine strike encourages martial attacks over cantrips, but the best melee finesse weapon they get by default is a measly dagger. Just one level of rogue fixes all that and comes with a respectable damage boost at low level. Arcane Trickster is a solid option to augment the cleric as it keeps some slot progression, gets the Shield spell without needing a 13 int or cha, and picks up Booming Blade. The Channel Divinity gives advantage to attacks to help ensure sneak attack can always land.
While being still mostly a cleric, this character can put out a respectable 4d8+2d6+4 at will damage with a booming blade sneak attack, along with another 3d8 if the target moves, which is easier to trigger with bonus action disengage.
Cleric/Sorcerer
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/light-mage-trevor-smith.jpg
You might call this a God Touched. These vary wildly with the many different sorcerous origins. The Divine Soul/Cleric being a natural and obvious transition from a prophet like figure to a practitioner of the faith, although if a cleric find themselves as a Divine Soul of a different god, things could become very interesting. A cleric might also find trouble with their sorcerous heritage. Perhaps a shadow sorcerer seeks the comfort of a god of light to get away from their dark nature . Perhaps a draconic sorcerer seeks out and worships a dragon god.
Dipping sorcerer gives shield spell at first level for added defense, potentially permanent mage armor via draconic scales, and then metamagic at 3rd level. Metamagic is a great way for any full spell caster to boost versatility. The ability to pick up the melee cantrips of BB/GFB is just icing on the cake for an often melee class that doesn't get extra attack. Although it is a bit MAD with the cha requirement, the pay off is well worth the boon. Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerers are common, as well as any cleric with just 3-4 levels in sorcerer for metamagic. Like any sorcerer dip a balance between sorcery point pool and lost core progression should be maintained. This cleric dip is slightly devalued with the release of the Divine Soul Sorcerer, as the single class can now do some of the same things without loss of progression.
Scourge Aasimar
Light Cleric 8+/Draconic Sorcerer 6
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 16
This character can do almost everything a full fledged sorcerer or cleric can do. It can sling fireballs, heal, twin buffs, and gets to add its cha modifier to it's fire damage effects. It's primary role will be support and blasting, but when it comes to at will damage it's Firebolts (or Green Flame Blades if melee inclined) add both wisdom modifier and charisma modifier to damage. Tack on the Aasimar racial damage and it's pretty healthy damage.
Cleric/Warlock
https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/_/rsrc/1468760037177/core-classes/necromancer/necromancer-archetypes/divine-necromancer/spirit%20guide.jpg
You might call this a Conspirator. No matter how similar their goals might be, there is always the potential for conflict between a cleric's god and a warlock's patron, putting the character in a place where they must deceive or outright betray one. A cleric/warlock must constantly be on his toes looking for that moment, and trying to stay one step ahead of the forces tugging on his strings from multiple directions. There are many reasons a cleric might turn to a patron for power, and doing so need not necessarily be a step away from their god. Perhaps the cleric believes they have their god's blessing in taking a patron for power or even to overcome the patron if alignments are opposing. For many, this multiclass means the character will permanently be under "Relationship Status: It's Complicated."
Dipping warlock gives access to some neat invocations, as well as possibly a scouting pet, or a tome for other class's rituals, or a minor boost in melee capability. Eldritch blast is a solid cantrip, but won't work so well on character without a higher cha, which is hard to obtain with the MADness. Melee cantrips would likely better serve you. Using warlock slots to cast healing spells on short rest recovery can be nice, but the split progression of warlock puts you further behind than any other casting class. Depending on how often you can short rest, you will very likely end up with less slots overall. You will also not be up-casting spirit guardians or spiritual weapon at a comparable level to other full caster MCs. Warlock is good at adding some diversity, but ultimately lags behind many of the more attractive choices.
Half Elf
Hexblade 5/Death Cleric 6+
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17
This melee focused gish is designed to nova with eldritch smite and it's two channel divinities. Nothing too complicated here. Just a whole lot of damage potential all assigned to cha stat, along with elven accuracy for some high crit chance. Hexblade gives shield spell for the cleric slots. Can work with GWM or SS for really good damage all around.
Cleric/Wizard
https://orig00.deviantart.net/0fcf/f/2012/103/5/8/mystic_theurge_by_jasonengle-d4w2g6j.jpg
You might call this a Mystic Theurge, a master of both prayer and study. This classic multiclass is the scholarly cleric that took up wizardry or the faithful wizard who took favor from his god. This is an easy transition provided the character is intelligent enough for it, all a cleric needs is a spellbook or another wizard to train them.
Dipping wizard opens a few neat tricks to obtain via the level 2 wizard abilities, some helpful reactions such as shield, and absorb elements, as well as some non-concentration buffs that wouldn't compete with your cleric buffs such as longstrider or false life. Most of the level 2 and 6 abilities can compliment a cleric's casting well. The ability to pick up the melee cantrips of BB/GFB is great for an often melee class that doesn't get extra attack. It's MAD and requires a planned build but there are several combinations which create power.
Human
Forge Cleric 8/War Wizard 2
16, 9, 14, 13, 16, 9
This build is a MADness struggle, but it isn't without it's perks. Booming Blade with a decent str score and the divine strike damage give it at decent at will melee capability backed up by what is likely an AC of 22+ with at will +2 AC on reaction. Wizard spells augment the character's defensive reactions further with the option to cast shield, absorb elements, or even feather fall. Rituals add more out of combat utility. It all makes for a very durable and useful cleric.
Druid is an excellent base class with plenty of versatility contained in itself with wildshape, a strong spell list, and an arguably overpowered capstone. The druid can perform as a tank, a healer, a controller, or even a blaster. The versatility provided by full spells known makes the druid able to easily switch or split rolls when preparing spells. The druid spell list has more offense options than the cleric list, at the cost of some defensive and healing spells.
Of all classes the druid probably lends itself the least to multiclassing due to the arbitrary no metal armor restriction. This is subject to DM interpretation, so many of these ratings will improve if your DM allows the use of metal armor. Druid 1 picks up shillelagh and some nice spells like good berry. A moon druid 2 dip is ok, but becomes obsolete as levels increase. Shepherd druid 2 is a good dip for many support inclined characters.
Druid/Art
A druid dipping artificer gains access to some different spells, magic items, and some potential bonus action usage. While not as obviously strong as the cleric option, this has some neat combinations. Who doesn't want to be a bear with a flame thrower on its back?
Druid/Barbarian
https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0324/95/1401603542288.jpg
[I]You might call this a Wild Avenger, a druid taking a more wild and aggressive turn. Nature is harsh and brutal. No druid is far from home when taking levels in barbarian. It is simply letting their inner beast out.
Dipping barbarian is a fine option for a moon druid to make the most out of his wildshape, gaining rage for both increased defense and offense while in animal/elemental forms. Reckless attack at 2 and bear totem both work well with wildshape, but at the cost of greatly delaying increased forms. There is some action economy issues if not already in wildshape, as both it and rage take a bonus action for moon druids. The raging wildshape will ultimately be passed in damage and utility by concentrating on powerful spells. This is still rated blue for its low level power.
Lizardfolk
Moon Druid 2+/Barbarian 1
13, 14, 14, 10, 16, 8
This is the basic barbarian 1 dip for moon druid. Take it at level 1 for the added hp and never go back. Progressing moon druid forms is the key here. This lizardman can turn into a bear and rage dealing added damage and being resistant to enemy physical damage. He may be able to add his own proficiency bonus to his bite attack (DM dependent) and may also be able to make a bite attack as a bonus action 1/short rest. Unarmored defense can be a decent boost in AC for many forms as well.
Druid/Bard
https://ucfant3145f09-05.wikispaces.com/file/view/bard.jpg/107333565/bard.jpg
You might call this a Windspeaker, or a similar name, one whose magic has taken on the natural song in all things. A bard whose attuned to nature or aligned with a druid circle might begin to take druid levels. While a druid who has learned to meld his magic with song might begin to take bard levels. Many Harpers are Windspeakers.
Dipping bard gives some different spells, some inspiration dice, and jack of all trades. There is very little obvious synergy here, and it is MAD. Since druids lack the spellcasting shenanigans of wizards and clerics, there is no appeal here in combining anything with magical secrets.
Druid/Cleric
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/db/21/bb/db21bb78c178afdd5c04f471d4beb76f--druid-shaman-woman.jpg
You might call this a shaman. A cleric whose religious path has put them in tune with nature allowing them access to a different sort of magic. A cleric spending time with druids might begin taking druid levels. While a druid who has strengthened their faith might start taking cleric levels. This transition is an easy shift if it is a nature cleric as their god is already bringing them closer to nature.
Dipping cleric offers a lot of good spells, such as bless and access to great domain features within one or two levels. The cost isn’t steep as spell slots continue to progress, and it is SAD. For a druid that doesn’t expect to see his capstone, this could be a very good multiclass choice. A single level of Life Cleric can be a massive boost for spells like Goodberry and Healing spirit. This multiclass received a boost with Healing Spirit pushing it into Sky Blue or even Gold for Life Clerics.
Human V.
Dream Druid 3+/Life Cleric 1
10, 16, 14, 8 16, 8
Life Cleric with Healing Spirit and Goodberry is such a strong combination that some consider it an exploit. It's just a strong combination for healing, which is often considered underpowered in it's own right. This character does it best and has the back up healing power in their kit to keep everyone alive for a long long time.
Druid/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/84/b4/da/84b4da4a73081feb545a8fb197004955--character-ideas-character-art.jpg
You might call this a Forest Protector, a druid whose taken some time to focus on martial capabilities.
Dipping fighter gives a fighting style, action surge and potentially an archetype feature. The fighting style will most likely be defensive for +1 AC. Action surge is fantastic on anyone, especially full casters as being able to shell out another spell in the same round is potent. I’d probably avoid the archetypes as they would mostly be an attempt to augment wildshape, but in doing so would put wildshape further behind. Keep it at fighter 2 and it’s a solid choice.
Human V.
Land Druid 5+/Fighter 2
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This druid can cast two spells a round once per short rest it. Noting fancy, but it gets the job done. The fighter levels add defense fighting style, second wind and the action surge. If taken at the first two levels the druid might be able to wear heavy armor, which works well if your DM is the type to let you wear metal or hand out things like ironwood. Most times, it'll probably never get used though.
Driud/Monk
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5056/5415331076_0bc01f4025.jpg
You might call this a Green Fist, a druid whose more attuned to the powers within their own body. A druid might be driven to monk levels through deep meditation or time with other monks. A monk might begin to take druid levels if spending an inordinate of time in the wild and or with other druids.
Dipping monk might give some AC, as well as various monk features. This could be a solid 1 level dip for any druid looking to gain a few AC, or perhaps a lot more depending on how much your DM allows your features to affect your wildshapes. RAW is a bit unclear so ask your DM on what does and doesn’t work in wildshape forms.
Human V.
Moon Druid 2+/Monk 1
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This is a basic moon druid with a monk dip. Your monk AC is probably better than the natural armor of most animals, which can be a nice boost, but it'll be hard to ever really have a respectable AC with most forms. If your druid can make unarmed strikes in form you might even be able to use martial arts. This is similar to a barbarian dip for it's rage and AC, but scales a little better for AC. By druid level 8 it should make all your forms have an AC of 15 + their dex, that's 20 AC on an air elemental. That's not too bad. After druid 10, I'd probably start taking more monk levels. The other monk features are easy to justify in elemental forms. "Of course my Air Elemental can catch arrows!"
Druid/Paladin
https://pre00.deviantart.net/7911/th/pre/i/2013/129/5/9/the_green_knight_by_duncan_eagleson-d64o55g.jpg
You might call this a Green Knight, a paladin who is truly in touch with nature's magic. This might be a common multiclass among ancients paladins but paladins of any oath might also be druids. A druid greatly wronged by another might take an oath of vengeance or a druid who wants to bring the world back to a natural order might take an oath of conquest.
Dipping paladin gives a fighting style, some nice spells, and smite. This is very MAD, but it could be viable as smite does work in wildshape, giving moon druids something to do with their slots once they are already in form. The build loses efficiency greatly at levels where wildshape isn’t an effective combat choice, and may find that it will be outpaced by standard fighter types.
Tortle
Paladin 2/Moon Druid 2+
14, 10, 14, 8, 16, 13
This moon druid can smite while in form or out. It's racial 17 AC is a great fix for the MADness and allowing the dumping of dex. Potential proficiency in claw attacks might also work in wildshape (DM dependent). Paladin spells, such as bless, are even worth concentration, at least at lower levels. Smite scales with the increased slot pace of the full caster cleric. This build could spend a lot of its time in form and use every slot.
Druid/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/1d/62/521d6206cceced3a37bf409ea9abc15d--character-ideas-character-art.jpg
You might call this a Conservator, a wild guardian able to defend the wilds and control them. This multiclass is a natural transition from either direction.
Dipping ranger gives a fighting style, some more spells, potentially a subclass ability, and even extra attack. Of all the ways a druid aims to get extra attack, ranger is probably the best fit as it wis based and half/caster. Probably best combined with a caster druid, as moon druid’s lose too much progression of wildshape to make it worth it. It is solid option for a druid who is aiming to attack, likely with a ranged weapon.
Human V. (SS)
Shepherd Druid 6+/Gloom Stalker 5
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This druid loses out on some progression in exchange for a class feature granted darkvision that should work with every animal form, extra attack and a solid free extra attack at the start of every fight. This character should make an excellent scout with the darkvision and an excellent infiltrator with disguise self granted by the gloomstalker's expanded spell list. In a fight she can conjure up a small army of beefy animals and either wade in with a shilellagh or stand back and shoot.
Druid/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/4c/07/8e4c0772f8ac4bbcb18092539867350b--fantasy-character-design-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this an Outlander, a druid that has taken some time to develop his mundane talents such as stealth and subterfuge.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, sneak attack, cunning action, and possibly an archetype. The exploration and scouting ability of a druid with stealth expertise and wildshape is top tier. Sneak attack wouldn’t work in wild shape, as natural attacks are not finesse, but cunning action always has value. The archetypes are tempting, but probably best avoided as they’ll delay spell progression too much.
Ghostwise Halfling
Dream Druid 5+/Scout 3
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 10
This nasty little druid is primarily a caster/support druid with the neat little trick of being able to hold concentration while wildshaped and hidden. He casts a spell like Call Lightning. Then on subsequent rounds he can use his action to call another lightning bolt and hide using cunning action. If required he can even spend a round wildshaping into something tiny so he can hide in something like grass. He can also spend his Balm of the Summer court healing dice while still hiding and/or wildshaped. The third rogue level for scout is a little unnecessary, but helps a lot with flavor giving the druid free expertise in nature and survival, along with the handy escape ability, great on any caster. Unfortunately, much of this can be replicated by simply taking the goblin race on your druid.
Druid/Sorcerer
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/91/bd/84/91bd84d4914b73b2b70d67eb8e7d653c--high-fantasy-druid-fantasy.jpg
You might call this a Wild Soul, a druid whose blood contains magic. Like any sorcerer, a druid might not know of his natural sorcerous blood until later, causing him to start taking sorcerer levels. A sorcerer on the other hand must become attuned to the natural magic and or spend some time among druids to take druid levels.
Dipping sorcerer gives access to some good spells, likely scales for more AC, and metamagic. Attaching metamagic onto any full caster is a strong addition. Druids especially can benefit from metamagic as many of their spells such as call lightning can be activated after they are cast, for continual damage. This pairs very well with a quickened spell for a continuous stream of blasting or control. Extending a conjure spell, or twinning a blight, etc. There are plenty of good options. It isn’t RAW, but many DMs could be convinced that subtle spell allows for casting in wildshape, in which case this would probably be sky blue. The cha cost is a bit MAD, but the benefits can be worth it from an offensive stand point. Depending on your DM's interpretation of careful spell (one-time or ongoing) many of the druid's control spells can be quite potent with it.
Protector Aasimar
Land Druid (Mountain) 5+/Draconic Sorcerer (Lightning) 6
8, 12, 14, 8, 16, 16
This druid took sorcerer all the way to level 6 for some metamagic. He can activate his racial feature, fly up above the battle and quicken call lightning for extra damage equal to class level. On round two he can call lightning and quicken a lightning bolt or a cantrip. The damage output is solid. Can be done very similarly with a tempest cleric, but only the druid can turn into a flying bear (and keep calling down lightning) once he runs out of sorcery points.
Druid/Warlock
https://orig00.deviantart.net/62b4/f/2017/129/7/1/the_druid_king_by_dusanmarkovic-db8ni8f.jpg
You might call this a Keeper, a druid who has taken up a warlock pact. This is most common among fey pact druids, but can be seen with any patron type.
Dipping warlock gives access to some different spells, cool invocations, and potentially a pact. The spells can be a good addition to a warlock’s list. Upcasting Armor of Agathys with druid slots works great with wildshape as many forms hit points are low at various levels, and they all have relatively low AC. The invocations can be good, but eldritch blast won’t have the cha to make it viable. The lack of stacking of spell slots hurts when considering upcasting druid spells. Overall not a horrible dip, but the MADness keeps it from truly excelling.
Half-Elf
Moon Druid 10/Celestial Chainlock 3
8, 14, 14, 10, 16, 14
This Moon Druid can use it's familiar to talk while in wildshape, via telepathy with it. The moon druid healing is pretty weak at 1d8 per spell level, but with the gift of the ever-living ones invocation, he can heal for 8 per spell level, 16 hp per warlock slot. That's not bad healing as a bonus action in a pinch, especially when it's put on something like an earth elemental with resistance to physical damage. He gets more bonus action healing attached to the celestial which can be used on self for 6 per d6 or an ally for the d6, while wildshaped.
Druid/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/38/be/9238be8625e38d36b6e8a4b6fa80c211.jpg
You might call this a Recluse, someone caught up in study of the arcane and the natural. It is natural for an intellectual to take an interest in the arcane or the natural magic, whichever is new to them.
Dipping wizard gives access to some different spells, and cool subclass features. There isn’t a whole lot of synergy here. The wizard abilities tend to work better on wizards than with druid spells and the MADness probably makes it less than good. The stacking spell slots keeps it from being totally terrible.
Human V.
Moon druid 2+/War Wizard 2
9, 14, 14, 13, 16, 8
Another moon druid dip. Not at strong as the other AC boosters, but the reaction for +2 AC or +4 to a save comes without a drawback if you are already wildshaped. The moon druid's reliance on little base stats opens up potential combinations for combining this with a third or even a fourth class.
The fighter class is a great class that is unique as the only class giving more than 2 attacks with the attack action. The fighter typically acts as a melee or ranged damage dealer, or a tank. They have some battlefield control options via grapple and shove, possibly aided by feats and subclass features. They are also one of two classes (the other being rogue) that grant extra ASIs, notably at levels 6 and 14. Fighters are the easiest class to multiclass into, with a variable requirement of str or dex, and provide an ability at level 2 that is valuable on any character: action surge. Depending on the aims of the fighter it is common to multiclass after picking up the third attack (level 11), due to the long wait between 3 and 4 attacks. Fighters are also one of two classes that only require 1 stat to operate, either str or dex, making no MC really that MAD.
Key breakpoints are: 1(at first level gives con saves and heavy armor + FS), 2 (action surge), 3-4 (archetype-ASI) for dips, and 5-6 (extra attack-ASI), 11-12 (another attack-ASI).
Fighter/Art
Dipping artificer gives a variety of spells, magic items, and regular bonus action usage. Overall it's arguably one of the best dips for a fighter. With just 3 levels you can increase your damage output via bonus action, provide yourself with any +1 weapon/shield/armor, and get access to the shield spell.
Fighter/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c8/34/2c/c8342cb5d7f7d0cc0bdee4d53a1064fa--creature-fantasy-fantasy-warrior.jpg
You might call this barbarian a War Rager. A fighter who becomes in touch with thier inner fury can begin taking levels in barbarian.
Dipping barbarian gives rage, reckless attack, and potentially an archetype at the cost of wearing heavy armor. Rage is a fantastic boon, giving resistance to physical(or nearly all) damage and a damage boost. The downside is easily planned for with a 14 dex. Reckless attack is a great option as well that grants advantage at will for GWM fighters. Dex fighters are probably best avoiding this, although they still benefit from the resistances, they cannot use reckless attack or the rage damage bonus. It would also make it MAD. Excellent 4 level dip, to avoid doubling up on extra attack.
Human V.
Battlemaster Fighter 6+/Bearbarian 3
16, 14, 16, 8, 10, 8
Start with GWM, max str by level 6. Always have advantage, always swing for the fences, use precision strike as needed. This build is so common it's probably been done a thousand times, and for good reason. It hits hard and can take a beating. Look to get resilient wisdom at some point, unless you like murdering your friends.
Fighter/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/aa/e2/70aae21448f9ae503f20185722841814.jpg
You might call this a Wardrummer, or another named based on the particuler performance skills. A wardrummer is a fighter who has taken up the music of the bards and learned their magic.
Dipping bard gives a skill, some spells, and jack of all trades. Swords Bard grants blade flourishes which are good for any fighter, and Whispers grants some sneak attack type damage. Lore bard 3 grants cutting words, but without boosting cha, the uses per day on all of these will be few. This is a solid choice.
Human V.
Champion 6+/Swords Bard 5
8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
This fighter can start with dual wielder and the defense style, picking up TWF style with bard levels. Champion makes for improved crit chance on the blade flourish. If defensive flourish crits the AC bonus gets pretty high. Always exactly 5 levels in bard for short rest recovery of flourishes, without doubling up on extra attack. Backed up by a variety of solid buffs.
Fighter/Cleric
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/df/88/37/df88378ef8c9fd447d1bb34d73070192--fantasy-warrior-fantasy-male.jpg
You might call this a War Priest or Battle Cleric, a fighter who takes some time to get in touch with their faith and god.
Dipping cleric gives some great spells, and cool domain features. The buff spells of cleric go well with the fighters con save proficiency, as well as the ability to heal yourself and fallen allies with healing word. There are little downsides as the wisdom cost isn’t steep, and comes with the added benefit of boosting an important save, and common skill, perception.
Human V. (HAM)
Cavalier 6+/Forge Cleric 6+
16, 10, 16, 8, 14, 10
This war priest can have a 23 sitting AC without any magic items, give enemies disadvantage to attack anyone else, and cast shield of faith to further boost his AC. This is a real tank with both aggro control and the ability to take hits.
Fighter/Druid
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/84/b4/da/84b4da4a73081feb545a8fb197004955--character-ideas-character-art.jpg
You might call this a Forest Protector, a druid whose taken time to focus on martial capabilities.
Dipping druid gives some spells, and wildshape. The spells could be useful, but come at the steep cost of metal armor. As a primary fighter AC is an important stat. Perhaps dex based Eldritch Knights that dumped int in favor of wisdom could be viable, using their EK spells to keep Mage Armor going. That is pretty niche though. Wildshape won’t be strong enough to be a viable combat option. Whatever you are trying to gain here could probably be better achieved through a cleric or ranger dip.
Human V. (SS)
Arcane Archer 6+/Shepherd Druid 2
8, 16, 16, 8, 14, 10
This Forest Protector gets to use a little more magic than a normal arcane archer and is boosted further by the Spirit Totems. Hawk Spirit is a little clunky requiring an action to set up. Once set up though, the reaction to advantage on a ranged attack is a solid effect for a SS Archer.
Fighter/Monk
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2d/75/90/2d759070ad03bd99ac94ba70ea172daf--fantasy-warrior-fantasy-rpg.jpg
You might call this a Pugilist. A pugilist doesn't have quite the same style and finesse of a monk, but is backed up by martial training.
Dipping monk gives many features that may or may not work depending on the fighter’s desired loadout. There are several features that do work, but it loses some viability due to the dead abilities. If the fighter intends to operate as a normal monk, then they probably better off as a Monk/Fighter.
Lizardfolk
Cavalier 6+/Kensei 4
8, 15, 17, 8, 16, 8
This pugilist is a bit more savage then a standard humanoid, mixing a bite into his attacks every round for the free +2 AC. Armor and a shield are optional,
probably best worn until mid to higher levels to keep AC high, making tanking easier. Ki is best used on dodging giving foes disadvantage to attack you while cavalier gives them disadvantage on everyone else.
PeteNutButter
2016-09-30, 08:54 PM
Fighter/Paladin
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a4/0a/7b/a40a7bf0dae4518e4e4b9da068270b11--the-knight-knight-male.jpg
You might call this a Crusader, a fighter who has taken up a paladin's oath or a paladin who takes time to focus on their martial training.
Dipping paladin gives some spells, smite, another fighting style, as well as potentially oath features. The fighting style comes out to another AC or about + 2 damage. Smite might be attractive, but would lack slots to really back it up. This becomes more viable on an Eldritch Knight, who could potentially have enough slots to put it to good use. Using an action surge for 6 attacks and smiting on them all is some powerful nova but it would take nearly all the slots in one round. The devotion and vengeance oath features can be a good help to land GWM hits. The option to keep bless going, with con save proficiency would be a good help to the team. Unfortunately the amazing Aura of Protection is hidden behind paladin 5, which would cause doubling up on extra attack. There are worse options for a fighter, but it isn’t the best.
Human V. (GWM)
Eldritch Knight 7+/Vengeance Paladin 4
16, 10, 16, 8, 10, 13
Eldritch Knight gives Shield, but the rest of the slots are there just to feed a few paladin smites and maybe some blesses. Vengeance paladin gives advantage on 1 foe per short rest to help make up for GWM. Wait for crits to smite if possible.
Fighter/Ranger
https://orig00.deviantart.net/548f/f/2012/355/5/6/ranger_comm_by_yamao-d5ooiwz.jpg
You might call this a Striker, a woodland warrior who has specialized in striking with harsh and aggressive action.
Dipping ranger gives some spells, another fighting style, and subclass feature. The spells are good on a class that doesn’t always have something to concentrate on. Hunter’s Mark particularly goes well with fighters, as they get more out of it with their extra attacks. The level 3 subclass abilities are great, and a big help to fighters. Overall 4 levels is a solid addition to a fighter, but may be a little MAD for str fighters with its dex and wis requirement.
Human V. (SS)
Arcane Archer 6+/Gloom Stalker 4
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This is your basic Green Arrow build, excellent archer that hits hard and fast at the start of the fight and can keep shooting well into the fight. It's DM dependent whether action surge gives the gloom stalker attack a second time, but if it does that's 6 attacks on round one or 8 by fighter 11. Throw on 3 rogue levels for assassin and you have advantage on all of them if you go first or the often sought after auto-crits on surprise. Added cool points when you shoot a Grasping Arrow that is also an Ensnaring Strike.
Fighter/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f5/c5/2d/f5c52d1fa3717b46731ef062abc7205d--fantasy-character-design-character-art.jpg
You might call this a Guerrilla, a trained warrior capable of fighting in the fray or using stealth to get around.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, cunning action, and possibly an archetype feature. Expertise is often taken on fighters in athletics for aid in grappling and shoving, pairing especially well with Shield Master feat. Str fighters can still use finesse weapons to achieve sneak attack. Cunning action is useful on anyone, aiding in reaching foes or kiting foes.
Human V. (SM)
BM Fighter 6/Swashbuckler 3+
16, 13, 16, 8, 10, 10
Champion might be tempting for big crits on sneak attacks, but nothing beats Riposte on rogues. Combine with sentinel and a good AC for regular reaction attacks that utilize sneak attack 2 times per round. Rapier and shield works with either dex or str build. Str build is better at using shield master and usually a little more AC, dex retains ability to stealth and perform other roguish actions.
Fighter/Sorcerer
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/a0/81/8ba0818fe3f16d111ae75d8644f052cb.jpg
You might call this a Blade Mage, a warrior whose natural magic fuels their martial capacity.
Dipping sorcerer gains some spells, potentially scales, and metamagic. The scales act as permanent mage armor, giving a good AC bonus to dex fighters (eventually). Shield spell is quite possibly the best 1st level spell in the game. Quickening a spell, and following it with an attack action can be quite potent. Eldritch Knights could make good use of this, but unfortunately would need to dump int to keep from being MAD.
Human V. (SS)
Arcane Archer 6/Shadow Sorcerer 5
8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
Shoot two arrows, quicken a fireball, fluff the fireball as on one of the arrows. Profit. Shadow Sorcerer allows the usage of darkness for advantage on all your shots at the cost of a couple sorcery points.
Fighter/Warlock
https://jvhageshii01.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/mhrh1k6.jpg?w=364&h=364&crop=1
You might call this a Maledictor, a warrior whose martial capacity has been augmented by a pact with a stronger entity.
Dipping warlock gives some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. The spells are helpful on a fighter without anything to concentrate on. Hex scales well with a fighter’s many attacks. Eldritch blast may or may not be as much damage as a ranged weapon, depending on how high the fighter can keep their cha. Devil’s Sight and darkness is always a popular option on martial builds, but comes with the cost of possibly hurting the rest of the party.
Human V. (SS)
EK 7/Hexblade 5
8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
This archer can shoot an eldritch blast and back it up with a single shot from a bow. Pairs well with rogue levels also to keep that single attack scaling.
Hexblade makes it all cha SAD.
Fighter/Wizard
https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0460/81/1458258953669.png
You might call this a Spellsword, a warrior whose martial process is augmented by research of magic.
Dipping wizard gives spells and cool subclass features. This a common fighter/caster multiclass as it pairs well with the Int based Eldritch Knight. Abjuration is popular but probably better as a Wizard/Fighter since it scales with wizard levels. Many of the other schools offer good options for a fighter. Divination is always good. Enchantment’s level 6 ability is great on a melee. Two levels of bladesinger could be good on a dex fighter. War Wizard is a stellar choice on a martial character, for a permanent effective reaction.
Human V. (GWM)
Eldritch Knight 7+/War Wizard 2
16, 8, 16, 14, 10, 8
This EK dipped two in WW for a solid reaction that doesn't cost the usage of shield every round.
The monk is a solid core class that can perform as melee or short ranged damage dealer, or a tank (at later levels) with plenty of survivability boosts, and a single resource that recharges on a short rest. Despite their versatility in play, they are the least versatile class in character creation. Most monks tend to run around naked, punching and kicking things. There is little variation. Their capstone is relatively weak encouraging some multiclassing once the Monk has reached a desired breakpoint.
For those interested in playing a monk wearing armor or using a non-monk weapon, the following abilities still work in armor: All ki abilities, including flurry, deflect missles, all subclass features, and stunning strikes. The biggest losses are, no scaling damage dice, making unarmed strike stuck at 1 or 1d4 with tavern brawler, Tabaxi and Lizardfolk get a 1d4 and 1d6 respectively for their unarmed damage; loss of movement speed buffs; loss of ability to use dex with unarmed strikes and monk weapons; loss of regular single bonus action attack. It is quite possible to build a viable build as a Non-Monky Monk. With the now AL legal Tortle, a monk can be based entirely on str and maintain a respectable 17 AC, which opens up more multiclass options.
Monks are the class most dependent on ASIs as their AC is exclusively dependent on their ASIs. A fighter can get away with taking feats for their first couple ASIs, but a monk that doesn’t boost dex or wisdom by level 8 will still be sitting at a 16 AC. For this reason many monk multiclasses will be in numbers divisible by 4. Furthermore, monks need a good wisdom, dex and con to operate well, making MADness an extra challenge for them.
Key breakpoints: 1(AC), 4(ASI, avoid doubling extra attack), any ASI level, 11(subclass feature), and 14 (saves).
Monk/Art
Dipping artificer offers some utlity at the heavy cost of madness. There isn't much to do here that couldn't be better accomplished elsewhere.
Monk/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0a/04/5d/0a045d5c754f663ae56ef53dda5a3918--ninja-turtle-raphael-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles.jpg
You might call this a Brawler, a barbarian who takes prefers to engage his foes with bare hands. The discipline required to take on the way of the monk life, might be in conflict with the barbarian nature, but not all monk orders are the same. Perhaps this barbarian spent some time in a monastery, or perhaps they learn to tap an inner disciplined rage.
Dipping barbarian gives access to rage, and a different non-stacking AC. The rage is great for damage resistance, but the damage bonus likely won’t apply while using dex. For a non-monky build taking 1-4 levels of barbarian and the rest monk could result in a very tanky character with resistance to damage and bonus action dodging. It comes at the cost of a little MADness and several dead levels/class features. Tortle solves all these problems though, making this MC str based.
Tortle
Barb 2/Kensei 5+
17, 13, 14, 9, 14, 8
Rage plus flurry plus reckless attack is a whole lot of damage. Only the Tortle can pull this off and still have a decent AC. I've played this character, and it is surprisingly very very powerful.
Monk/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/ae/57/6cae5711307dd024ae4fd69b03d2475a.jpg
You might call this a Death Dancer or something similar. Some monks have mastered their body to make it so their fluid movements in combat are a musical ballet. Perhaps their attacks have a rhythmic timing. If they are fond of weapons, they might be mistaken for a Bladesinger.
Dipping bard gives access to some skills, spells and jack of all trades. If a monk wants spells they are best left to picking a wisdom based class. If they want skills, they can get rogue. There is little reason to attempt this MAD build. Probably best avoided.
Half-Elf
Kensei 5+/Swords Bard 5
8, 16, 13, 8, 16, 14
This monk can throw on blade flourishes that recharge on short rest to boost her AC, which stacks with Kensei AC boost. Dueling style helps the Kensei's weapon. Buff spells can make up for other weaknesses.
Monk/Cleric
https://archive.is/TRcCP/8f90b75d0ba06e7bfab33dc99a09c871e1994076.jpg
You might call this a Sacred Fist. A cleric and monk whose prayer and meditation have melded into a worship that brings zen. A cleric might begin taking monk levels if they spend time in a monastery or even spend too long meditating. A monk might take cleric levels if their meditation leads them to a higher power.
Dipping cleric gives access to some spells, and cool domain features. The spells go great on a monk who typically lacks anything to concentrate on, but already has a high wisdom. This is a great combination that has little drawbacks. As long as the monk picks up extra attack, it’s hard to go wrong here.
Human V. (Mobile)
Kensei 6+/War Cleric 1+
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This is simple dip to get Divine Favor, which is like a hex that you don't have to waste bonus actions to move, but does 1 less damage. It's a solid damage upgrade for just 1 level in cleric, especially against lots of foes.
Monk/Druid
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5056/5415331076_0bc01f4025.jpg
You might call this a Green Fist, a druid whose more attuned to the powers within their own body. A druid might be driven to monk levels through deep meditation or time with other monks. A monk might begin to take druid levels if spending an inordinate of time in the wild and or with other druids.
Dipping druid gives access to some spells and wildshape. Wildshape won’t be very useful in combat as a dip, but still useful for stealth or exploration. The spells are a great addition to the monk who already has a high wisdom, and nothing to concentrate on. The lack of metal armor is no love lost here, and your team will be happy to have one more person that can heal. Shillelagh can help encourage wis boosts over dex, but wouldn’t work on unnamed strikes. It can be slightly outpaced by the cleric option, but is still overall quite strong.
Human V. (Mobile)
Sun Soul 8+/Moon Druid 8
10, 16, 14, 8, 16, 8
This Green Fist transforms into a flying snake or similar creature and blasts away using it's sun soul blasting abilities while flying above the battlefield.
Monk/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2d/75/90/2d759070ad03bd99ac94ba70ea172daf--fantasy-warrior-fantasy-rpg.jpg
You might call this a Pugilist. A pugilist doesn't have quite the same style and finesse of a monk, but is backed up by martial training.
Dipping fighter gives a fighting style, action surge and possibly an archetype. The fighting style is pretty limited for a traditional monk, making duelist the go to option. Action surge while great on any class loses a little value on monks, as half their damage can come from the bonus action. Each subclass can have it's appeal for a monk. A great dip, best taking exactly 4 levels of it, so as not to lose an ASI or double up on extra attack.
Human V. (DW)
Kensei 5+/EK 4
8, 16, 14, 8, 16, 10
Kensei have the most AC potential of any monk, Dual Wielder feat adds just one AC. Add on the ability to cast shield as a reaction 3/day and you are really hard to hit. Pair with another full caster for more uses as necessary.
Monk/Paladin
http://www.dandwiki.com/w/images/thumb/b/b8/PsiMonk.jpg/270px-PsiMonk.jpg
You might call this a Redeemer, or something similar based on the subclasses chosen. The Redeemer is paragon of discipline and capable of staring down evil without flinching, a result of discipline meeting cause.
Dipping paladin, gives a fighting style, smite, and possibly an oath. The fighting style is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Smite is tempting with monk’s many attacks, but it wouldn’t have the slots to back it up with only a dip in paladin. The intense MADness of 4 stats needing 13, none of which being con, make this probably best avoided.
Human
Open Hand 5+/Redemption 4
13, 16, 10, 9, 16, 13
This is the only way to really build the redemption paladin as it was in UA form. Smites work with monk attacks (weapons and punches) encouraging a third class dip for full casting progression. As smite slots build up, opens up a lot of NOVA potential. Very MAD and pays heavily in con.
Monk/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7b/bf/4a/7bbf4aa81e759910e2992ff6fd3c0a5e--character-portraits-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this a Lone Wolf. A martial artist who spends his time meditating alone in the wild.
Dipping ranger gives a fighting style, some spells, and likely a hunter ability. The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Hunter’s Mark is a fantastic damage boost on a class with 3-4 attacks a round. The hunter or gloomstalker ability is just more damage. This is a great choice for a 4 level dip, grabbing the precious ASI and avoiding doubling up on extra attack. It is completely void of MADness. Avoid Horizon Walker or Monster Slayer as there is too much bonus action competition.
Water Genasi
Kensei 5+/Hunter 4
8, 15, 17, 8, 16, 8
This Kensei uses a longsword made of ice (Shape Water) to slice through it's foes. Horde Breaker scales well with the level 11 Kensei feature to make any weapon a +3 weapon. Hunter's Mark works great with the monk's many attacks.
Monk/Rogue
https://cdn.allwallpaper.in/wallpapers/2048x1152/7280/ninjas-fantasy-art-2048x1152-wallpaper.jpg
You might call this a Ninja, a master of stealth and martial arts. This is a common path for Shadow Monks.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, cunning action, and possibly an archetype. The cunning action can appear like an overlap for the monk, but the ki savings are well worth it. As for archetypes, assassin could be fun to crit with all of a monk’s attacks. Arcane Trickster is a good way for a monk to get Shield spell without a 13 int/cha. Swashbuckler is a poor man's mobile. Scout is a bit similar. Could make a solid dip, provided it doesn't go too behind on ASIs.
Human V.
Shadow 8+/Swashbuckler 5
8, 16, 14, 8, 16, 10
Shadow monk enables the ninja to operate as a full master of stealth, while swashbuckler offers great advantages in combat for allowing sneak attack on the back lines of the enemy without ally support.
Monk/Sorcerer
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/00/ff/db/00ffdb2adab389e7222671a4e2f165db--character-creation-character-concept.jpg
You might call this a Shadow Hand or perhaps another name based on subclass choices. This monk has innate magical blood that augments his martial prowess.
Dipping sorcerer gives some spells, and possibly scales. The scales could temporarily make up for the lack of points to have a high wis, but the benefits probably won’t outweigh the MADness. The typical appeal of the sorcerer gish is the action economy of quickened, but the bonus action of the monk is already full of options. GFB/BB are pretty useless on a monk, as they cannot flurry or use martial arts without taking the attack action. These classes have little to add to each other. Shadow Monks gain some synergy with shadow sorcerer. Probably best left for niche builds.
Human V.
Shadow Monk 6+/Shadow Sorc 4
8, 16, 12, 8, 16, 13
This Shadow Hand can make darkness that he can see through, and then teleport around in. Not a bad combination, but he can only see through the darkness he makes using his sorcery points, which is very limiting and makes the ki point darkness still fairly useless.
Monk/Warlock
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6e/3e/83/6e3e83aa9db5053db4d1b8a60a3a2506--character-art-character-design.jpg
You might call this a Hex Hand, a martial artist whose taken on a pact for increased power.
Dipping warlock gives some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. It is MAD, but Armor of Shadow’s could temporarily help mitigate the lower AC. This is a common choice for the shadow monk to gain Devil’s Sight, as they can cast darkness but lack the ability to see in magical darkness. This is more of a way to fix the issues with the Shadow Monk than it is a real synergy, as the warlock can both cast and see in magical darkness without multiclassing. Casting Darkness comes with its own issues as you may essentially turn off your teammates as well, especially as a melee.
Human V.
Shadow Monk 6+/Hexblade 4
8, 16, 12, 8, 16, 13
This monk uses the above darkness trick, but the real boon here is the hexblade's curse. It requires a bonus action to set up, but anything that adds damage is scales fantastically with the 4 attacks a round the monk can make. Along with hex (another bonus action) the damage can be quite potent.
Monk/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/d1/80/40d18035d0ac8c65b6d04da4e2fa126b--character-concept-character-art.jpg
You might call this an Enlightened Fist, a martial artist who has taken on the study of arcane magic.
Dipping wizard gives access to some spells as well as some cool subclass features. Bladesinger is one of the few ways a monk can add to AC, but the MADness makes it unlikely to be worth it. War wizard is a great dip on any martial that doesn't have a regular reaction, but otherwise there is little synergy with this combination, and it is MAD. Probably best avoided.
Human
Kensei 5+/War Wizard 4
9, 16, 14, 13, 16, 9
Kensei has the most potential for AC, WW adds to that as a reaction. Some good synergy at the cost of heavy MADness. With two levels in, the third level grants Alter Self which is a good way to make unarmed strikes +1 to hit and damage for an hour, something not easily replicated.
The paladin is one of the strongest base classes with a kit that provides several condition immunities to the paladin and nearby allies, as well as saving throw boosts, half casting ability, and smite. Paladins can serve as melee damage and tanks, often both. Smite is one of the few abilities in the game that actually becomes directly stronger with multiclassing, allowing more smite slots of higher levels faster when combined with a full caster.
Key breakpoints are: 2 (Smite +FS), 3-4 (oath-ASI), 5-6 (extra attack- Aura of Protection), 9 (3rd level spells), 11-12 (Improved Divine Smite-ASI).
Paladin/Art
Dipping artificer gives some cool spells and magic item access. The MADness keeps this from excelling.
Paladin/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/43/af/e8/43afe84b425d28873065dc0c7f44f6e4--woman-warrior-fantasy-warrior.jpg
You might call these The Wrathful. Nothing compares to righteous wrath of barbarian/paladin. They have both unbound fury and total devotion to their case. A barbarian who takes levels in paladin might have good reason to take on a new cause with a religious fervor. Vengeance paladins fit this well thematically as the oath aligns well with barbarians furious nature.
Dipping barbarian gives rage, reckless attack, and potentially an archetype. Rage is great for any melee, although it prevents the paladin from concentrating on spells. It does allow smiting while raging though, all at the cost of heavy armor. The MADness of needed a decent dex for AC, prevents this from being optimal. The more paladin levels the worse this gets, as spells get better and better, making rage a less attractive option.
Tortle
Ancients Paladin 8+/Zealot 4
17, 8, 14, 8, 11, 15
Tortle allows this build to dump dex and fix it's MADness. Rage is a very strong ability and lots of paladins use most of their slots to smite anyways. Reckless attack sets up more crit smites. This build will pick up PAM especially post paladin 11, adding rage damage and 1d8 IDS is just too much to miss out on a bonus action attack.
Paladin/Bard
http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook-files/imgs/combat.jpg
You might call this a Battle Hymnist, a bard who has taken up fervent cause that uses his song and stories to inspire his companions. A bard might find a new cause after a traumatic event, or have reason to seek vengeance. Whatever the reason, this bard makes an oath that forever alters her perception of the world.
Dipping bard gives some skills, jack of all trades, and full casting slots based on cha. Jack of all trades can be a good boost to a character that typically won’t have a high initiative. The spells are the real gravy here. Smite scaling gets much more viable when attached to a full caster. Boosting cha would add both to all saving throws and spell save DC. Swords bard is a fantastic boost overall.
Triton
Paladin 6+/Swords Bard 5
16, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16
Lots of synergy here. Plenty of slots to smite with and short rest recharge blade flourishes. If you can mix in a level of hexblade the whole thing becomes SAD for cha.
Paladin/Cleric
https://orig00.deviantart.net/8112/f/2013/274/6/0/prayer_paladin_by_elle_shengxuan_shi-d6orcm2.jpg
You might call this The Devoted. Clerics and paladins who have blurred the lines between their deity and their devotion. Any paladin that serves a deity can naturally transition into cleric levels and any cleric can take up an oath to become a paladin.
Dipping cleric gives some more spells, and cool domain features. There are several domain features that could go well with the paladin’s kit. A paladin of 9th level or higher could benefit from a single level in life cleric to go with aura of vitality. Tempest cleric could go well with thunderous smite. There are some solid options here, but the MADness is tight on a class that needs both high attack stat and high cha.
Half Elf
Paladin 9+/Tempest Cleric 6+
16, 9, 14, 8, 13, 16
Elemental weapon + knock back effect is just fun. Channel divinities can be used on paladin effect (vengeance?) or to maximize damage.
Paladin/Druid
https://pre00.deviantart.net/7911/th/pre/i/2013/129/5/9/the_green_knight_by_duncan_eagleson-d64o55g.jpg
You might call this a Green Knight, a paladin who is truly in touch with nature's magic. This might be a common multiclass among ancients paladins but paladins of any oath might also be druids. A druid greatly wronged by another might take an oath of vengeance or a druid who wants to bring the world back to a natural order might take an oath of conquest.
Dipping druid gives some spells and wildshape. Wildshape is only useful out of combat as it will scale poorly. The spells can be a nice boost, but the MADness limits their usefulness. It all comes at the high cost of prohibiting metal armor. As a melee class, paladins are in great need of AC. Whatever you are trying to do, is probably better achieved in cleric, ranger, or just Oath of the Ancients. I’d avoid this.
Tortle
Ancients 7+/Druid x
16, 9, 14, 8, 14, 14
Druid multiclass that is MAD and can't wear metal armor? Tortle power fixes that. Spell slots power smites, and subclass can be any of the caster focused ones, including shepherd, dreams or land. Each has its strengths.
Paladin/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a4/0a/7b/a40a7bf0dae4518e4e4b9da068270b11--the-knight-knight-male.jpg
You might call this a Crusader, a fighter who has taken up a paladin's oath or a paladin who takes time to focus on their martial training.
Dipping fighter gives another fighting style, action surge, and potentially an archetype. The fighting style is likely either +1 AC, or ~+2 damage. Action surge is just another resource to go with the existing nova potential of the class. Each subclass offers great potential to the paladin, with the exception of arcane archer, as bows are a poor choice of weapon for paladins who get melee only smites.
Human V. (Mounted Combatant)
Paladin 6+/Champion 4
13, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
Using Mounted Combat to get advantage on most foes with a lance, this crusader can crit 19% of the time and slap smites on top of them. Scales better with a third full caster class to help catch up lost spell slots.
Paladin/Monk
http://www.dandwiki.com/w/images/thumb/b/b8/PsiMonk.jpg/270px-PsiMonk.jpg
You might call this a Redeemer, or something similar based on the subclasses chosen. The Redeemer is paragon of discipline and capable of staring down evil without flinching, a result of discipline meeting cause.
Dipping monk gives a lot of features that may or may not work with his current loadout. This is as MAD as it gets requiring 4 13s, none of which are con. Flurry of blows is attractive as a way to get two more smites out. Unfortunately Improved Divine Smite would not work with unarmed strikes. This is probably best avoided.
Human
Paladin 6+/Kensei 4
16, 13, 14, 9, 13, 14
This is might be able to operate if it picked up a mage armor effect from sorcerer or another source. Otherwise it should wear armor. It's MAD but can achieve decent AC with armor.
Paladin/Ranger
http://orig11.deviantart.net/f5cc/f/2011/347/4/7/green_knight_by_taaks-d4izhi3.jpg
You might call this a Guardian, a warrior bound by their oath but capable of nature magic and fighting both in melee and ranged.
Dipping ranger gives another fighting style, some different spells, and potentially a subclass ability. The spells don’t add much as a paladin of the right oath can get some ranger spells anyways. The fighting style is either +1 AC or ~+2 damage. The hunter ability is a nice damage boost, but unfortunately comes at the high cost of max MADness , 4 13s required, none of which are con. Probably best avoided.
Human
Paladin 6+/Hunter 4
16, 13, 14, 9, 13, 14
Very MAD and hard to justify, but another AoE attack is helpful and can add smite damage.
Paladin/Rogue
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2508/4047987640_9186a252e4.jpg
You might call this an Inquisitor, a holy warrior capable of stalking it's prey.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, cunning action, and potentially an archetype. Expertise in athletics is a common choice for those that love to grapple or shove, and pairs especially well with the Shield Master feat. Going for assassin can get some nasty surprise round smite crits, but is very difficult to pull off as melee. Swashbuckler could be great choice, adding your high cha to initiative.
Human V. (SM)
Paladin 6+/AT 5+
16, 13, 14, 8, 9, 14
Shield Master with expertise in athletics, advantage + sneak attack all the time. Shield spell with warcaster feat, good utility. Smites on crits. Solid build.
Paladin/Sorcerer
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/heroes-of-camelot/images/2/24/Battlemage.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140209085624
You might call this a Spell Smiter, a holy warrior whose heritage imparts them with magical power.
Dipping sorcerer gives some spells, full cha-based casting, and metamagic. This and its inverse, Sorcerer/Paladin are among the best multiclasses currently in 5e. The full casting provides extra slots to smite with, and the metamagic provides action economy heaven. Quickening a spell and backing it up with the attack action is very powerful. The SCAG cantrips allow you to quicken GFB/BB and attach a smite to that as needed as well. A sixth level draconic sorc has one of the best bonus action attacks in the game with a quickened GFB adding both str/dex and cha to damage. Taking 6 levels of paladin first is common, but taking 11-12 levels is also very viable. It is very powerful offensively, but also quite hard to kill with its boosts to saving throws, heavy armor and shield spell.
Human V.
Paladin 6/Sorc 3+
16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 16
This is such a common multiclass. Something to do with any action, durable, and capable of NOVA. This is one of the best characters you can build and will vastly outperform most single class characters.
Paladin/Warlock
https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/t/thinkingskeever/20160809/20160809103950.jpg
You might call this a Betrayer, or something similar based on it's subclasses. Anyone who has both an oath and a patron risks compromising one for the other and must balance them accordingly with their own free will. Some combinations may be natural, but most spawn internal conflict within a character. In these situations it is a matter of when the Betrayer will betray his patron or forgo his oath.
Dipping warlock gives some spells, with slots that recover on a short rest, invocations, and potentially a pact. This is a good alternative to the Paladin/Sorcerer dump-the-bucket approach, instead getting some good recovery on short rests. Over the course of a day it may end up with more smites than a Paladin/Sorcerer. Hexblade, even just 1 level, makes this among the best combinations in the game making the entire build SAD for cha, allowing cha max first for a massive boost to saves.
Human V.
Paladin 6+/Hexblade 1+
15, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16
Take Hexblade 1 at second level and max cha. Swings and smites and spells and saves are all off one stat. Curse increases crit chance for more powerful smites. Very potent build.
Paladin/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e9/23/7e/e9237ef94e22091877483e269490d03e--fantasy-male-fantasy-rpg.jpg
You might call this an Eldritch Smiter, a devoted warrior who has taken the time to study the secrets of the arcane.
Dipping wizard gives some spells and subclass features. There is almost no reason to do this over sorcerer. It is practically the same class, except wizard doesn’t give quicken, and is MAD. Avoid this if you are optimizing.
Human
16, 9, 14, 13, 9, 16
Paladin 6+/War Wizard 2
War wizard is probably the only thing remotely worth dipping. If it weren't for the MADness this would be a solid dip that gives a great reaction every round, slightly more spell slots than straight paladin to feed smiting, and a bunch of good spells. Sorcerer will likely be better in any situation.
The ranger is commonly regarded as one of the weakest base classes in 5e, evidenced by its several UA do-overs. Until there is any published in-book content, this guide will continue to focus on the phb ranger. The ranger has a lot of weak or dead levels that encourage multiclassing, along with a capstone that is so terrible it was practically ret-conned to first level with the latest UA ranger. All that being said the first 5 levels of ranger are quite good, good enough to keep most high level rangers from feeling gimped. Rangers require dex and wis 13s to MC making MADness a bit of an issue, but they can get away with a relatively lower wisdom compared to other classes as many of their spells are not save based. Str rangers may find themselves extra MAD.
Key breakpoints are: 2(FS + Hunter’s Mark), 3-4 (Subclass ability-ASI) for dips, and 5(extra attack), 9(3rd level spells), 11-12(Subclass boost-ASI).
Ranger/Art
Dipping artificer gives some spells, and useful items. This dip is useful but MAD. Most rangers already have crowded bonus actions making the cannon/steel defenders of little help.
Ranger/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f3/86/22/f3862222e49bc41a889a6a86641b8291--fantasy-images-fantasy-art.jpg
You might call this a Warden, a wild warrior who has taken his attunement to nature a step further. The warden is the scout that subs as a ferocious quick striking warrior whenever necessary.
Dipping barbarian gives rage, possibly an AC increase with enough con, reckless attack, and potentially an archetype feature. It is best combined with a str ranger to get the most of the abilities. Rage is quite useful for melee, but unfortunately doesn’t work with Hunter’s Mark. It’s a little bit less average damage than Hunter’s Mark, with the added benefits of resistance, and not needing to swap it between targets. The limit of medium armor isn’t an issue. It is a good option for rangers looking to be tankier a couple times a day.
Half Orc
Horizon Walker 5+/Zealot 4
17, 14, 14, 9, 13, 8
This str ranger can deal lots of damage with dice, along with reckless attack for a decent chance at big crits. Orcish Fury rounds off the str and adds another crit booster. Hunter would be another good choice for a GWM for another attack.
Ranger/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/80/da/0d80da656086f69d190a3b6e70b63178.jpg
You might call this a Songbow, a magical archer whose music and arrows become one, with arrows that strike like perfect notes.
Dipping bard gives some skills, jack of all trades, and spells. There is little obvious synergy to go on here. It is MAD. Best left for niche builds.
Human V. (SS)
Gloom Stalker 5/Whisper Bard 5+
8, 16, 12, 8, 13, 16
This skulking Songarrow sees other humanoids as his play things, more at home with animals. What he can't get done with subterfuge, he solves with lots of arrows and psychic blades for rogue scaling sneak attack damage 3+ times per short rest. He has plenty of spells to buff himself and allies, as well the ability to steal high level ranger spells before a straight ranger would ever get them.
Ranger/Cleric
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/66/9f/ef669f78d70c2443a3d28c246f5729cd.jpg
You might call this a Spirit Guide or perhaps an Undead Slayer, capable of guiding others both in the wild and in spiritual matters. Clerics might begin taking ranger levels when tasked to hunt down those who have offended their god and church, or perhaps they merely took the time to become familiarized with the wild.
Dipping cleric gives some more spells, possibly heavy armor proficiency, and cool domain features. There are plenty of uses for this combination, and little is really lost by taking cleric over more ranger. A strong build starts ranger 5 and proceeds cleric from there.
Human V.
Ranger 5/Cleric 5+
8, 16, 14, 10, 16, 8
This is the simplest build out there and can be taken in a variety of orders with a variety of subclasses, but ultimately 5 levels of ranger is desired. It's not worth the dip if you don't get extra attack, and it isn't worth taking to level 6. Can go nature cleric or MI for shillelagh to become SAD. Can start with only 13 dex and use strength build to utilize heavy armor, saving a couple stat points, or go with a classic archer build. Can work with ranger 5 first or cleric 5 first. For this example build, I'd start with the Sharpshooter feat and tack on war cleric to turn misses into hits.
Ranger/Druid
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/1d/62/521d6206cceced3a37bf409ea9abc15d--character-ideas-character-art.jpg
You might call this a Conservator, a wild guardian able to defend the wilds and control them. This multiclass is a natural transition from either direction.
Dipping druid gives more spells, and wildshape. Wildshape won’t scale enough to be useful in combat, and there is significant overlap between the spell lists. The lack of metal armor could cost some AC. A Ranger/Cleric likely does most of what this could do better, but this is still viable due to the SADness.
Human V. (Mounted Combatant)
Horizon Walker 5/ Shepherd 5+
16, 14, 14, 8, 13, 8
This ranger wanted to be a beastmaster, until he figured out it was total mud. So instead he can summon armies of loyal beasties that will be thoroughly buffed. Lance and Board is the go to battle loadout, mount swapping between a regular horse and powerful summons.
Ranger/Fighter
https://orig00.deviantart.net/548f/f/2012/355/5/6/ranger_comm_by_yamao-d5ooiwz.jpg
You might call this a Striker, a woodland warrior who has specialized in striking with harsh and aggressive action.
Dipping fighter gives another fighting style, action surge, and potentially an archetype. The fighting style is likely +1 AC or ~+2 damage. Action surge is good on anything. Battle Master is a good way to round out the kit. Champion is viable. Eldritch Knight gives shield spell without an int/cha requirement. Arcane Archer is also a strong obvious choice. A strong 4 level dip.
Human V. (SS)
Gloomstalker 5+/Battlemaster 4
10, 16, 14, 8, 16, 8
Gloomstalker + Action surge + Precision Strike on SS arrows. 'Nuff said.
Ranger/Monk
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7b/bf/4a/7bbf4aa81e759910e2992ff6fd3c0a5e--character-portraits-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this a Lone Wolf. A martial artist who spends his time meditating alone in the wild.
Dipping monk could potentially increase AC, and gains monk features. There is good synergy here, although probably better left as the inverse, Monk/Ranger, as higher ranger levels don’t help as much.
Human V. (Mobile)
Gloomstalker 5/Kensei 4+
10, 16, 14, 8, 16, 8
Maxing dex, gives a decent AC further boosted by Kensei +2. Kensei allows dex usage of more weapons that a normal rapier ranger couldn't manage with finesse. Monk is the only class that doubling up on extra attack isn't so bad, as stunning strike is a powerful enough feature on its own to avoid a dead level.
Ranger/Paladin
http://orig11.deviantart.net/f5cc/f/2011/347/4/7/green_knight_by_taaks-d4izhi3.jpg
You might call this a Guardian, a warrior bound by their oath but capable of nature magic and fighting both in melee and ranged.
Dipping paladin gives another fighting style, smite, and potentially an oath. Smite is attractive but probably not worth the MADness, requiring 4 13s, none of which are con. Best left to niche builds.
Human
Monster Slayer 5+/Redemption 4
16, 13, 14, 9, 14, 13
Start Paladin 1 for heavy armor to reduce MADness a little. With the very busy bonus action of the ranger, especially Monster Slayer, a paladin oath with a reactionary CD seems like a good fit. Smites are more useful on a ranger than a non-caster, scaling the same as a normal paladin. Some solid NOVA potential, like a normal paladin.
Ranger/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/1c/4a/4c1c4a963efa0e1adb961fc3c2d4930d.jpg
You might call this a Stalker, a stealthy scout, guide, and combatant comfortable both in the wilds and in an urban environment.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, cunning action, and potentially an archetype. Cunning action is great on a ranger, aiding in kiting, and potentially repositioning in order to trigger horde breaker. Assassin is a common picks for rangers who tend to skulk about already. Arcane Trickster could provide a shield spell without an int/cha requirement. There are plenty of good options here, that easily combine with ranger.
Wood Elf
Gloom Stalker 5/Assassin 3+
8, 17, 14, 8, 16, 8
Advantage on all those attacks that you make on round one if you win initiative, which gloom stalker helps with. Throw on elven accuracy and you're golden. Lots of synergy here. Scout would also work well with an archer intent on kiting, which would mesh well with the elf movement speed.
Ranger/Sorcerer
http://www.studioarts.com/sites/default/files/FighterMage.jpg
You might call this a Wild Blood, a ranger whose heritage gives them innate magic.
Dipping sorcerer gives some spells, possibly scales, and metamagic. It is MAD. Many ranger spells are already bonus actions, gaining little benefit from quicken spell. The scales are a nice AC boost for a dex ranger, but not worth the MADness. Probably best left to niche builds.
Half Elf
Hunter 5+/Draconic 4+
8, 16, 14, 10, 14, 14
Horde Breaker and Quickened GFB make for some serious melee AoE. Would work best if could manage a str build, but MAD stats make it difficult.
Ranger/Warlock
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/2e/7d/902e7d199873b3bca3c5bdcaa3b91ccd.jpg
You might call this a Witcher, a monster hunter whose taken on a pact with another power for unnatural powers.
Dipping warlock gives some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. There is some redundancy between Hunter’s Mark and Hex. Armor of Shadows can be an AC boost to dex rangers, and Devil’s Sight is great, especially those human and Halfling types that lack normal darkvision. The pact could add some versatility, but ultimately it's pretty MAD.
Half Elf
Ranger 5+/Hexblade 5
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17
The strategy here is to be a cha archer. A low level hexblade dip of 1 level for cha to hit and damage on a hand crossbow allows this to come online early. The extra slots compared to a fighter can be helpful for more spells/eldritch smites, boosted by elven accuracy.
Ranger/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/44/e9/08/44e908c6aa362bf0951a04e2e1391634--fantasy-characters-female-characters.jpg
You might call this a Seeker, a scout warrior and study of arcane secrets.
Dipping wizard gives some spells and subclass features. There is little obvious synergy here. It is MAD. Best left to niche builds.
Human
Ranger 5+/War Wizard 2
9, 16, 14, 13, 16, 9
War wizard dip, great on any martial. Probably one of the best things you can manage here.
PeteNutButter
2016-09-30, 09:03 PM
The rogue is a excellent core class that looks forward to a solid linear damage increase to sneak attack every other level. Aside from the damage increases the class gets pretty steady useful abilities with few weak or dead levels. The rogue is not at all limited to the stereotypical sneaky type, and more commonly behaves in combat like a swashbuckler(with or without the subclass) via touch and go attacks utilizing cunning action to force foes to attack their tankier allies or provoke OAs getting to them. They are typically solid damage dealers that double as skill monkeys. Rogues only require dex for multiclassing making them easy to fit into a variety of builds and not so subject to usual MADness constraints. GFB and BB are direct upgrades to a rogue's damage output, except TWF, so multiclassing that picks up those cantrips is a good investment. Sneak attack works once per turn, not round, so if rogue can get a reaction attack off on a separate turn it is well worth the multiclass investment. Despite losing 3d6 SA dice, the math favors 5 levels in another martial class for extra attack, compared to a single (non-cantrip) attack.
Key breakpoints: 1 (expertise, 1d6 SA), 2 (Cunning Action), 3-4 (subclass, ASI), 5(Uncanny Dodge), 7 (Evasion), etc. The linear progression of rogue makes pretty much any desired point a good break point.
Rogue/Art
Dipping artificer gives medium armor & shields, some useful spells, and magic items. This is a solid, versatile that opens lots of doors.
Rogue/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/64/f4/db/64f4db0368f4ade9377cf00f48289c39--conan-barbarian-red-sonja.jpg
You might call this a Thug, a warrior that can sneak into your house, smash your things and then wake you up by breaking your legs.
Dipping barbarian best done with str based finesse attacks. This is another common tactic for a rapier shield master build with just 1-5 levels in barbarian. Since most barbarians already have the dex required for their medium armor, this is a solid pick for anyone who might use a finesse weapon. Reckless attack is fantastic when paired with sneak attack for at will sneak attack. Both it and rage require the use of str when attacking though.
Human V. (SM)
Barb 2+/Rogue 5+
16, 14, 16, 8, 10, 8
Strength with rapier and shield, shove with expertise. If that fails just reckless attack to ensure SA is always on. Resistance to damage and uncanny dodge makes one attack a round quartered. Subclasses are mostly to taste, as bonus action is busy. Barb 5 for extra attack is a good idea at some point.
Rogue/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9e/8c/e6/9e8ce6b27cd8c29734694c6fe6cc2d54--character-portraits-character-art.jpg
You might call this an Infiltrator or Mole. None are quite so adept at getting on the inside of an organization and mucking about when no one is looking. A bard just has to take some time to focus on his more mundane capabilities to start taking levels in rogue.
Dipping bard gives spells and skill boosts. This is one of the best ways to be an ultimate skill monkey with lore bard and loads of expertise. The cost is a bit of combat inefficiency, as both spells and sneak attack lag behind. Swords or whispers bard can be worth it for combat efficiency, but requires heavy investment (5) to get short rest recharge uses.
Half Elf
Swashbuckler 5+/Whispers 5
8, 16, 16, 8, 10, 16
This Infiltrator has all the benefits of 5 levels in a full casting class and can act like a full rogue on sneak attack cha/short rest. Best used with TWF as a swashbuckler or with BB as a AT instead.
Rogue/Cleric
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/87/96/8d/87968da70f77b3d6fb4bcbe46abd1e50--character-concept-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this a Divine Trickster, a cleric whose talents are not limited to the churchly norms. Such a cleric may have had a rough past or picked up rogue skills in the aid of his god.
Dipping cleric gives some spells, and solid domain features. A common mix here is trickery domain, but several domains could lend themselves well to rogue levels. This is an easy dip for a rogue to gain guidance for further boosting skills and initiative when available. The wisdom requirement is easily planned for and adds a good bonus to a common save and perception. Since most rogues lack something to concentrate on, and try to avoid being hit at all, it is great for them to pick up something like bless for the team.
Duergar
Assassin 5+/Grave Cleric 2+
16, 14, 14, 8, 14, 8
This trickster can go invisible once a day and sneak up on a big bad, mark them with CD while hiding and invisible and then surprise them with a vulnerable crit. Surprise is never good to plan around, but it'd be fun when it worked. Medium armor and a shield, give the rogue staying power in a fight when needed.
Rogue/Druid
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/4c/07/8e4c0772f8ac4bbcb18092539867350b--fantasy-character-design-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this an Outlander, a druid that has taken some time to develop his mundane talents such as stealth and subterfuge.
Dipping druid gives some spells as well as wildshape for some great out of combat exploration. There are plenty of good spells to boost the stereotypical rogue. Darkvision spell for the human and halfling rogues. Ducking in and out of a fog cloud is a great way to always have concealment and something to hide in. When in need, healing word is always good if to pick up your teammates, especially if the primary healer is down. The metal armor restriction is not as big of a deal on a light armor wearer. The wisdom requirement is easily planned for and adds a good bonus to a common save and perception.
Wood Elf
Scout 5+/Shepherd 3+
8, 17, 15, 8, 16, 8
Scout makes for an excellent nature themed character. Shepherd druid is one of the best druid subclasses for a dip, while Pass Without Trace is one of the best spells in the game for stealthy types.
Rogue/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f5/c5/2d/f5c52d1fa3717b46731ef062abc7205d--fantasy-character-design-character-art.jpg
You might call this a Guerrilla, a trained warrior capable of fighting in the fray or using stealth to get around.
Dipping fighter gives a fighting style, proficiencies, action surge, and potentially an archetype feature. The fighting style gives either +1 AC or ~+2 damage, and archery style is fantastic paired with Sharpshooter feat. While action surge is good on any class it is practically required on an assassin. Between a breastplate and a shield a rogue with 16 dex gains 3 AC, 4 AC with the fighting style. Battle Master is one of the best ways to achieve an attack as a reaction via riposte, triggering another shot at sneak attack (new turn, same round). This could double the characters overall damage per round when it connects. Great combo, especially if rogue levels are kept higher for sneak attack dice.
Human V. (Sentinel)
BM 6/Rogue 1+
8, 16, 16, 10, 14, 8
Between Sentinel and Riposte make you have a good chance at a reaction sneak attack every round. Fighter 6 gives another ASI to max out dex. Shield master is another good choice, but works better with some str. This is a very strong character.
Rogue/Monk
https://cdn.allwallpaper.in/wallpapers/2048x1152/7280/ninjas-fantasy-art-2048x1152-wallpaper.jpg
You might call this a Ninja, a master of stealth and martial arts. This is a common path for Shadow Monks.
Dipping monk gives all the monk features, which could be an increase in AC and damage output with just 1 level. The Shadow Monk works well with rogue. Keep in mind that although monk allows dex on unarmed strikes and monk weapons they must still be finesse to get sneak attack, so stick to a short sword. There are no clear breakpoints in the build, but it would help to pick up extra attack and stunning strikes.
Wood Elf
Scout 5+/Kensei 5+
8, 17, 14, 10, 16, 8
This Ninja specializes in using a bow. Scout enables withdraw as a reaction when necessary, freeing up the bonus action for Kensei damage boost every round.
Rogue/Paladin
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2508/4047987640_9186a252e4.jpg
You might call this an Inquisitor, a holy warrior capable of stalking it's prey.
Dipping paladin gives a fighting style, proficiencies, smite, and potentially oath features. The fighting style gives either +1 AC or ~+2 damage, but smite while useful will have limited slots even on an Arcane Trickster. It is tempting on an assassin to smite surprised foes, but due to the MADness and unsustainability with limited slots it'd probably under perform.
Half Elf
Swashbuckler 9+/Vengeance 6
13, 16, 14, 8, 9, 16
This Inquisitor picks up the very strong Panache in Swashbuckler and goes for extra attack in paladin, staying for the cha boost to saves. Vengeance CD gives advantage on all attacks, encouraging the TWF option. Smites are limited, but with advantage on one foe per short rest there is a good NOVA potential to crit with smites and sneak attack dice.
Rogue/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/1c/4a/4c1c4a963efa0e1adb961fc3c2d4930d.jpg
You might call this a Stalker, a stealthy scout, guide, and combatant comfortable both in the wilds and in an urban environment.
Dipping ranger gives some proficiencies, a skill, a fighting style, spells, and potentially a third level hunter feature. These classes have a lot of thematic and mechanical synergy. Between a breastplate and a shield a rogue with 16 dex gains 3 AC, 4 AC with the fighting style. Taking ranger up to 5 at some is a good way to ensure you land sneak attack, but at the cost of sneak attack progression.
Human V. (SS)
Asssassin 5+/Gloom Stalker 5
8, 16, 14, 8, 16, 10
This Stalker has all the perks of assassin, and the boost to initiative from ranger goes excellently with advantage if you go first, not to mention the insane burst capabilities if surprise is managed. This is such a great combination, it'll probably end up a very common seen character, perhaps with two or more fighter levels thrown on for action surge.
Rogue/Sorcerer
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/07/40/81/074081101ddc56bfe912cb9470c974cd--elves.jpg
You might call this a Kleptomancer, a master of innate magic and subterfuge.
Dipping sorcerer can give permanent mage armor, some good spells, and metamagic. GFB and booming blade are great and once combined with quicken can increase damage even more. A quickened GFB/BB can be followed up with a ready action, to trigger sneak attack on another turn. Once haste is achieved, it works even better with that. Shadow sorcerer is also a fine option to enhance stealth abilities and ensure sneak attack.
Half Elf
Swashbuckler 5+/Draconic 4+
8, 16, 16, 8, 10, 16
This Kleptomancer has all the magical tools to aid his stealth and battle capabilities including things like Shadow Blade, Invisibility, and BB. Draconic sorcerer gives 1 more AC compared to studded leather. With quickened BB he can ready another BB for another turn and double sneak attack damage at every round he has the sorcery points for it. A 5th sorc level grants haste, making this even better, but would be best if paired with Warcaster and first level in sorc for con save proficiency.
Rogue/Warlock
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/36/fc/4d/36fc4d6b4c9ddeadee7139c048d76f54--armor-concept-concept-art.jpg
You might call this a Fatestealer, a rogue that wasn't content with his mundane powers and sought out a pact with another creature.
Dipping warlock gives some spells, cool invocations, and possibly a pact. GFB and BB are great. Devil's Sight is a good way to fix a human or halfling rogue's lack of darkvision. Armor of Shadows is +1 AC. Hex if precast, and ready to switch is great when surprising foes to give them disadvantage on initiative, which is of course a boon for assassins. Pick up an Imp familiar with pact of the chain to scout wherever you can't, or a psuedodragon to milk for poison to use with a thief's fast hands. Hexblade offers even more of an AC bonus with free med armor/shield proficiency.
Human V. (CBE)
AT 5+/Hexblade 3+
8, 14, 16, 8, 10, 16
This Fatestealer dipped Hexblade for the ability to focus on cha over dex. Hand Crossbow is all that's needed to work with cha after just 1 level in hexblade. Devil's Sight + Darkness is always strong, and would work even better if Half Elf for Elven Accuracy, but as a human it comes online sooner taking SS at level 4 or 5. AT slots can be used for Shield to save the higher level warlock slots for better things as needed.
Rogue/Wizard
https://i.redd.it/zbsml3vtb2yz.png
You might call this a Spell Thief, a master of stealth and arcane study.
Dipping wizard gives some spells and cool subclass features. This is an obvious and common choice for Arcane Tricksters looking to get a little more spellcasting. Bladesinger is a good choice for a dip, as the AC bonus fits nicely with a rogue's traditional kit. Many other schools are viable as well. GFB and BB are great as always. Many spells can add to stealth such as [Greater] Invisibility.
High Elf
AT 5+/Bladesinger 2+
8, 17, 15, 16, 8, 8
Dump stats are dumped hard for this spell thief to ensure con and dex can be boosted with first ASI, as this melee rogue needs the hp to withstand the occasional hit that can get through it's high AC. While bladesinging with mage armor it's a 20 AC with shield spell available to boost to 25. Solid way to boost survivability, mobility, and utility on an arcane trickster.
The sorcerer is by itself generally weaker than the wizard. They know less spells than a wizard can prepare and can typically cast less over the course of the day as a wizard can recover spells on short rest. Metamagic is the only thing a sorcerer has to keep pace, and it alone has its limitations. Quicken seems strong, until you read the fine print that you can't cast another leveled spell when casting a spell as a bonus action. Other metamagics have strict limitations. Yet combining with the right classes a sorcerer can take those limitations and run with them, leaving the wizard in the dust. You don't need another leveled spell if you're casting an Agonizing Eldritch Blast, or attacking with smites. The ability to quicken a spell and still take the attack action makes sorcerer a very potent choice for a gish type character.
Key breakpoints are: 3 (metamagic), 4 (ASI), 5 (3rd level spells), 6 (origin feature), spell level of choice.
Sorcerer/Art
Dipping artificer gives some different spells, magic items, and utility. This is MAD, and is much better off as a wizard/art.
Sorcerer/Barbarian
https://img00.deviantart.net/2899/i/2014/105/4/e/crimson_mage__mtg_by_izzymedrano-d7elepx.jpg
You might call this a Fire Blood, or another name based on the sorcerous heritage, a barbarian that discovers latent innate magical powers in their blood might begin to take sorcerer levels.
Dipping barbarian offers little. Unless there is some other way to make use of it, rage is just an ability that turns off your class as a primary squishy caster. With a high enough con, it could add a couple points of AC, which would be pretty pointless by the time your con is that high. Stay away from this.
Half Elf
Draconic 5+/Paladin 2/Barb 1
16, 14, 14, 8, 10, 14
Really the only way to make any good use of this is to throw on paladin so the raging character has something to do with its spell slots. It's still pretty awful. Without going so far as to pick up extra attack, he'd do more damage just using BB (which of course can't be done while raging).
Sorcerer/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/5a/ac/ae5aac8821308c93cd4c1a5d40ec06d8.jpg
You might call this the Natural. This bard's talents likely all came to him all to easily. He never had to try, as his sorcerous blood gave him an edge, often unbeknownst to him. Any bard can have that smirk, but none like the natural do it so well. Be careful around this one, as their subtle magic, makes you never quite sure if you can trust yourself.
Dipping bard gives a skill, jack of all trades, and subclass features. The aren't a lot of obvious synergies here, but as both are full casters that are cha based, it definitely wouldn't be gimping, provided at least 5 levels in sorcerer is taken first.
Human V. (Warcaster)
Divine Soul 9+/Lore 3
8, 16, 14, 8, 10 ,16
This Natural is fond of using spells like Web, Control Water, and Telekinesis. Cutting words can be used not for the saving throws on those spells, but on the ability checks opponents make to get out of them. Telekinesis gets double benefit from Cutting Words and Jack of All Trades, as its an ability check you can't normally gain proficiency in. No one can force throw people quite like a bard. Any bard might steal telekinesis to do this, but only the Natural can throw someone around using cutting words to debuff their roll and quicken another spell.
Sorcerer/Cleric
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/light-mage-trevor-smith.jpg
You might call this a God Touched. These vary wildly with the many different sorcerous origins. The Divine Soul/Cleric being a natural and obvious transition from a prophet like figure to a practitioner of the faith, although if a cleric find themselves as a Divine Soul of a different god, things could become very interesting. A cleric might also find trouble with their sorcerous heritage. Perhaps a shadow sorcerer seeks the comfort of a god of light to get away from their dark nature [inspired by above picture]. Perhaps a draconic sorcerer seeks out and worships a dragon god.
Dipping cleric gives access to some great spells as well as powerful domain features, and either medium or heavy armor proficiency. Certain domains, such as the popular tempest domain features are better combined with sorcerer spells. It's a good way to become harder to kill without delaying spell slot progression. If just looking for the spells, its probably better off being a Divine Soul, but even the Divine Soul can gain benefit from a one level dip in Life Cleric.
Half Elf
Draconic 6+/Tempest 2+
16, 9, 14, 8, 13, 16
Maximizing lightning bolts is some strong early game AoE damage. Take tempest to 5 and use Call Lightning. Every round after you cast it you can call a lightning bolt and quicken another spell. Potent and consistent damage, while sitting on a 20 AC in non-magic items.
Sorcerer/Druid
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/91/bd/84/91bd84d4914b73b2b70d67eb8e7d653c--high-fantasy-druid-fantasy.jpg
You might call this a Wild Soul, a druid whose blood contains magic. Like any sorcerer, a druid might not know of his natural sorcerous blood until later, causing him to start taking sorcerer levels. A sorcerer on the other hand must become attuned to the natural magic and or spend some time among druids to take druid levels.
Dipping druid gives access to some different spells as well as wildshape. This is similar to the Sorcerer/Cleric, but lacking in some of the better buff spells or domain features to work with sorcerer spells. It's still viable, but dipping cleric is generally superior.
Half Elf
Black Draconic 7+/Swamp Druid 3+
8, 16, 14, 9, 13, 16
Short rest spell recovery 1/day is nice on a sorcerer. Healing word access turns this caster into a viable emergency healer, with the expanded spell list shoring up many weaknesses in the sorcerer list. Access to Melf's Acid Arrow (one of the few decent acid spells) is not bad for a black dragon sorcerer, especially when paired with Twin Spell. Elemental Adept Feat gets the most value on d4 damage dice, boosting the average damage from 2.5 to 2.75 per die so would be a good pick at some point. Higher level slots use Vitriolic Sphere. Unlike the common fire draconic sorcerers, this one won't find many enemies immune to his element of choice.
Sorcerer/Fighter
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/a0/81/8ba0818fe3f16d111ae75d8644f052cb.jpg
You might call this a Blade Mage, a warrior whose natural magic fuels their martial capacity.
Dipping fighter gives access to action surge at second level. The ability to cast potentially 3 spells a turn is potent. This is a solid dip for a sorcerer who wants to nova. Since sorcerers are already proficient in con saves, taking first level in fighter isn't as beneficial, granting only the heavy armor for increased AC. Taking it as far as level 5 for extra attack can make the sorcerer a viable martial.
Human V. (Warcaster)
Draconic 6+/Fighter 2
8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
This Blade Mage uses shadow blade along with GFB and quickened GFB to push out as many attacks as possible. Warcaster gets another shot at a reaction GFB if enemies manage to provoke. Each GFB adds both dex and cha to damage.
Sorcerer/Monk
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/00/ff/db/00ffdb2adab389e7222671a4e2f165db--character-creation-character-concept.jpg
You might call this a Shadow Hand or perhaps another name based on subclass choices. This monk has innate magical blood that augments his martial prowess.
Dipping Monk is MAD and offers little. There is little to nothing to gain here that couldn't be achieved better elsewhere. Best avoided.
Half Elf
Draconic 6+/Elements 5
8, 16, 12, 8, 16, 15
There is some potential to stun a foe with a stunning strike and follow it up with a quickened spell that is either a str or dex save, as stunned foes automatically fail those. Monk spells can be quickened such as the burning hands, but not monk abilities.
Sorcerer/Paladin
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/heroes-of-camelot/images/2/24/Battlemage.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140209085624
You might call this a Spell Smiter, a holy warrior whose heritage imparts them with magical power.
Dipping paladin gives a fighting style and smite, as well as potentially extra atack and aura of protection. This is among best multiclasses in 5e currently. With just two levels of paladin the sorcerer becomes melee capable with the ability to quicken spells and follow it up with a smite, or GFB/BB smite. This combination is popular with 2 or 6 levels of paladin, but can really work in any spread. It is in action economy heaven as a gish that can hold it's own and has lots of slots for smiting. It is also very tanky with ability to quicken cure wounds on itself, and ability to cast shield spell. It's hard to screw this up.
Human V. (Resilient Con)
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 5+
16, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16
One level behind on spell slots compared to a full caster and two levels behind on spells known. This is a master class gish that lacks the saving throw boost of its paladin 6 cousin, but returns dividends in higher level spells and smiting harder and faster. A normal level 11 paladin would add 1d8 to all his attacks, this Spell Smiter just quickens Hold Monster and hits it with a GFB (adding str and cha) for a huge automatic crit smite.
Sorcerer/Ranger
http://www.studioarts.com/sites/default/files/FighterMage.jpg
You might call this a Wild Blood, a ranger whose heritage gives them innate magic.
Dipping ranger gives a skill, some proficiencies, spells, and a fighting style. Due to the MADness there is very little reason to go this route on a primary sorcerer. Best left to niche builds.
Sorcerer/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/07/40/81/074081101ddc56bfe912cb9470c974cd--elves.jpg
You might call this a Kleptomancer, a master of innate magic and subterfuge.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, and cunning action. If the party lacks any skill monkey's this could be viable to help get you there. It could certainly help you become a party face with your high cha, but would probably be better if you got the skills elsewhere, such as bard to continue casting. It isn't MAD, so it doesn't gimp the build at all.
Halfling
Shadow Sorc 5+/Rogue 2
8, 16, 14, 8, 12, 16
Magical darkness that you can see through? One way to make that even better is cunning action to hide. Hiding behind objects or creatures in combat, is even more effective.
Sorcerer/Warlock
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b9/8d/43/b98d4397791f549fc29c47d1a3c9d2d6--fantasy-sorcerer-warlock-dnd.jpg
You might call this a Flame Weaver, an arcane magic user who wasn't content with his natural magical blood and sought a patron for even more power.
Dipping warlock gives a fantastic at will cantrip, as well as some cool invocations and potentially a pact. This is one of the best dips for a sorcerer, as in just two levels he can get the full blasting power of the warlock without losing much. Extra benefits come in the form of using the warlock slots to refill sorcery points, and plus up sorcerer slots. Given a long enough short rest spam, a sorcerer could have an excess of spell slots to start the day via converting warlock slots to points and then those points to sorcerer spells. Pact of the Tome could add a good deal of versatilty to the limited spell list of the sorceer. Great dip for typically 2-4 levels. It is hard to screw up as long as it takes Agonizing Blast.
Human V.
Sorcerer 3+/Warlock 2
8, 14, 16, 8, 10, 16
This can be done with any combination of subclasses. This build can whip out two eldritch blasts a round via quicken, or an eldritch blast and scorching ray,greatly outpacing a standard warlock's damage output. Likely one of the strongest/most common builds in the game.
Sorcerer/Wizard
http://www.worldofazolin.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/c6/Ultimatemagus.jpg/180px-Ultimatemagus.jpg
You might call this an Ultimate Magus, a true master of arcane magic through both blood and study.
Dipping wizard gives some subclass features that could potentially aid in casting. Since the sorcerer list is pretty similar there isn't all that much to gain there, but the spells prepared and rituals can help make up for some sorcerers lack in versatility. This is best left for niche builds.
Tiefling
Sorcerer 5+/Diviner 2
8, 14, 15, 13, 8, 16
If you're the kind of sorcerer who really likes to make foes fail saves, a two level dip in diviner for Portent can really make that easier.
The warlock is a versatile class that can serve a variety of roles depending on the pact and patron taken. Blade locks can serve as melee damage or tanks, or even potentially ranged martial damage if a magic ranged weapon is available. Tome or chain locks more commonly act as blasters or controls. Their limited spell slots, leave them just casting Eldritch Blast with the majority of their actions. The plinking power of Eldritch Blast is unmatched as a cantrip with the Agonizing Blast invocation and often Hex. Throw in Repelling Blast invocation and you have some substantial battlefield control. Warlock multiclasses often include first level in a martial class for medium or heavy armor, especially for blade locks (but maybe not hexblades), or just a 2 level dip for the blasting power. The lack of stacking spell slots with other full casters can be a serious gimp to a build with mixed amounts of warlock and another caster, coffee lock not withstanding.
Key breakpoints are: 1(Hexblade), 2(Agonizing Blast, another invocation), 3-4 (pact-ASI), 5(extra attack for blade, 3rd level spells)
Warlock/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/17/be/f1/17bef17fffa9ef75feb3fd0773da1cb4--the-soul-game-art.jpg
You might call this a Rage Blade, a barbarian who for some reason, either noble or selfish, has sought out a power to make a pact with, usually to further strengthen their martial abilities.
Dipping barbarian offers rage and con saves at first level. While it is a bit counter-intuitive to combine barbarian with a caster, the warlock comes equipped with some long duration spells that lack concentration, which can go really well with a barbarian's rage.
Human V. (PAM)
Barbarian 1/Fiend Bladelock 5+
16, 14, 14, 8, 9, 13
Armor of Agathys is made even better once combined with resistance to damage, effectively doubling how long it holds up. Fire Shield comes online much later, but also can be cast before raging. These thorns type effects make the barbarian's reckless attack seem like a win-win. Fiend refills THP when AoA runs out. Great against mooks, and melee foes, but might struggle at range.
Warlock/Bard
http://i.imgur.com/NWGhml4.jpg
You might call this a Chained Singer. A bard who was not content with the mere mortal bardic prowess, but sought out a pact with a more powerful being. The nature of the pact may vary greatly, depending on the patron, but none can sing like a devil like a bard/warlock. Not every bard wins that fiddle of gold.
Dipping bard gives some skills, jack-of-all trades, inspiration, and some spells. The cha dependence works really well here, but there isn't a whole lot of obvious synergy. The bard's features are good, but don't really compliment a primary warlock. The lack of slot stacking will likely just put you behind. This is much better as a Bard/Warlock. The SADness keeps it from being purple.
Human V. (Warcaster)
Hexblade 5+/Swords 3-5
8, 14, 16, 8, 10, 16
Swords bard gives this something to do for a primarily melee blade lock. Dueling or TWF style boost the damage output of the blade lock, and flourishes are strong, when cha is being maxed first. Having full caster slots allows more frequent shield spells without using high level warlock slots.
Warlock/Cleric
https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/_/rsrc/1468760037177/core-classes/necromancer/necromancer-archetypes/divine-necromancer/spirit%20guide.jpg
You might call this a Conspirator. No matter how similar their goals might be, there is always the potential for conflict between a cleric's god and a warlock's patron, putting the character in a place where they must deceive or outright betray one. A cleric/warlock must constantly be on his toes looking for that moment, and trying to stay one step ahead of the forces tugging on his strings from multiple directions. There are many reasons a cleric might turn to a patron for power, and doing so need not necessarily be a step away from their god. Perhaps the cleric believes they have their god's blessing in taking a patron for power or even to overcome the patron if alignments are opposing. For many, this multiclass means the character will permanently be under "Relationship Status: It's Complicated."
Dipping cleric gives some different spells as well as cool domain features. Both medium and heavy armor are upgrades for the warlock. Just level 1 cleric spells add some versatility to the warlock, and there can be some interesting combinations with domain powers. For example life domain increases the amount a warlock can heal himself with the Vampiric Touch spell. Unfortunately all cleric spells will key off wisdom, even when cast with warlock slots. There is a lot of strength for a 1-2 level dip here, despite the inherit MADness.
Half-Elf
15, 9, 14, 8, 14, 16
Life Cleric 1+/Celestial 5+
Heavy armor, great bonus action healing for early game as well as a boost. Life cleric even works with Vampiric Touch. Healing spells on short rest, will be greatly appreciated by the party. This dip takes your healing to the next level as a Celestial lock.
Warlock/Druid
https://orig00.deviantart.net/62b4/f/2017/129/7/1/the_druid_king_by_dusanmarkovic-db8ni8f.jpg
You might call this a Keeper, a druid who has taken up a warlock pact. This is most common among fey pact druids, but can be seen with any patron type.
Dipping druid gives access to some different spells and wildshape. Wildshape would be useful for stealth/exploration only, but the spells can add some versatilty to a warlock's kit. Medium armor would be nice, if it didn't come with the no metal restriction. Armor of Shadow's is the way to go for AC. This isn't horrible, but it has the curse of not being as good as the cleric dip. It is also MAD.
Half-Elf
Celestial 5+/Shepherd 2+
8, 16, 14, 9, 13, 16
Two seperate pools of bonus action healing dice, neither you nor your DM will keep this straight... Goodberries on short rest slots, means you'll be swimming in them.
Warlock/Fighter
https://jvhageshii01.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/mhrh1k6.jpg?w=364&h=364&crop=1
You might call this a Maledictor, a warrior whose martial capacity has been augmented by a pact with a stronger entity.
Dipping fighter is best done at first level for con saves and heavy armor. This is a very common tactic for [non-hexblade] bladelocks who want to use str based weapons, so they can dump dex, making them less MAD. The proficiencies alone are invaluable, especially the con save to maintain concentration on things like hex and darkness.
Human V.
15, 10, 14, 8, 10, 16
Fighter 1/Fiend Blade 5+
Even for a hexblade the fighter dip might still be worth it for the con saves and heavy armor, but the other patrons get more from it.
Warlock/Monk
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6e/3e/83/6e3e83aa9db5053db4d1b8a60a3a2506--character-art-character-design.jpg
You might call this a Hex Hand, a martial artist whose taken on a pact for increased power.
Dipping monk gives monk features at the cost of heavy MADness. Best left to niche builds.
Warlock/Paladin
https://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/t/thinkingskeever/20160809/20160809103950.jpg
You might call this a Betrayer, or something similar based on it's subclasses. Anyone who has both an oath and a patron risks compromising one for the other and must balance them accordingly with their own free will. Some combinations may be natural, but most spawn internal conflict within a character. In these situations it is a matter of when the Betrayer will betray his patron or forgo his oath.
Dipping paladin gives heavy armor at first level, a fighting style and smite at second. Just two levels in paladin is an amazing add on to a warlock. Like fighter, it actually decreases MADness for a bladelock, negating the need for dex. It lacks the con saves of fighter, but makes up for it with smite. Using warlock slots to smite is very potent for a character that can manage a lot of short rests. This is definitely a very strong option, probably best kept to just a couple levels, but also viable with 6 levels of paladin.
Human V.
Paladin 2/Hexblade 5+
15, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16
This build lost some power with the release of Xanathar's, but it still has heavy armor and smites. Damage NOVA potential is quite high, especially with double smiting on crits. SAD and versatile. Can't go wrong.
Warlock/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/2e/7d/902e7d199873b3bca3c5bdcaa3b91ccd.jpg
You might call this a Witcher, a monster hunter whose taken on a pact with another power for unnatural powers.
Dipping ranger gives a fighting style, some different spells, and potentially a hunter ability. Ranger is probably the least attractive martial dip for a warlock. MADness aside, Hunter's Mark and Hex are redundant, and there is no obvious synergy. This is possible for niche builds, but paladin and fighter are better options for a warlock.
Half-Elf
Hexblade 5+/Ranger 3
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17
Any of the ranger's martial boosts can prove valuable to a Hexblade, while Hexblade cha SADness makes up for the madness. This isn't bad.
Warlock/Rogue
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/36/fc/4d/36fc4d6b4c9ddeadee7139c048d76f54--armor-concept-concept-art.jpg
You might call this a Fatestealer, a rogue that wasn't content with his mundane powers and sought out a pact with another creature.
Dipping rogue gives a skill, expertise, cunning action, and potentially an archetype. Sneak attack can work with a blade lock. Devil's Sight could be great on any sneaky type, especially an assassin. Cunning Action is good on anyone. Overall this could add to the build. There are worse options.
Half-Elf
Warlock 5+/Rogue 2
8, 14, 14, 10, 10, 17
There is at least one reason to go with this build. Cunning Action hide in self-generated darkness. Pair with blade lock, hexblade for SADness and you get the benefit of the sneak attack as well.
Warlock/Sorcerer
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b9/8d/43/b98d4397791f549fc29c47d1a3c9d2d6--fantasy-sorcerer-warlock-dnd.jpg
You might call this a Flame Weaver, an arcane magic user who wasn't content with his natural magical blood and sought a patron for even more power.
Dipping sorcerer gives metamagic. Metamagic plus Eldritch blast is some of the best nearly at will damage, capable of firing out twice what a normal warlock could in a round costing only two sorcery points. A warlock dipping sorcerer would need more sorcerer levels than the inverse, in order to have a fairly good sorcery point pool, but otherwise can operate quite well. The ability to convert warlock spells into sorcery points works better/faster on this build than the opposite. Keep boosting cha with agonizing blast, and you can't go wrong.
Human V.
Warlock 5+/Sorcerer 4+
8, 14, 16, 8, 10, 16
Coffeelock. Expect it to be nerfed/banned in a lot of home games if abused. Regardless the SADness and output makes this very heavy on potential. Works with any subclasses. Hard to go wrong.
Warlock/Wizard
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/6d/2c/b46d2c2a18c5bd7f3ec23b6f8006d3bd.jpg
You might call this an Egoist, or something similar, an arcane caster so obsessed with power that they look for its secrets anywhere.
Dipping wizard gives little in comparison to other options. There are some good subclass features that could be appealing, but overall most of what could be achieved with this is done better by a Warlock/Sorcerer. This is best left for niche builds.
Tiefling
Hexblade 5+/War Wizard 2+
8, 14, 14, 13, 8, 17
With its limited slots, the war wizard downside is not so harsh on a bladelock. A solid way to give a good defense boost, with hexblade SADness offsetting the MADness of the MC.
The wizard as always is a powerhouse of magical might. The class typically serves as a controller, blaster, or the guy that everyone else has to protect. His kit comes on a fragile chassis that is greatly toughened by a single level dip at first level in a martial class. Other aims for wizard multiclasses are either adding a little versatility to the spell list or gish builds. Wizard progression is linear, and continuous providing little opportunities or incentives to multiclass at any given level.
Key breakpoints are: 2(subclass feature), 4 (ASI), 5(3rd level spells), any spell level of choice, 17(9th level spells), and 18(spell mastery).
Wizard/Art
Dipping Artificer offers medium armor, con saves, different spells, and utility, all without losing a single spell slot (with 1 level). This is extremely potent for just one level, but taking two levels can give a boost to spell attacks, and 3 a subclass. The only thing keeping this from being gold is the risk of taking too many artificer levels and gimping spellcasting.
Wizard/Barbarian
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6b/35/09/6b35096d19641535b1a39f9b870cdeb2--red-sonja-fantasy-illustration.jpg
You might call this a Rage Mage, a wizard who can tap into his inner fury.
Dipping barbarian offers little benefit in comparison to other choices. Rage is like an off switch for the entire wizard class. This is best avoided.
Wizard/Bard
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e1/c8/e3/e1c8e38bbd1ca352a2ff911eef705acc--character-concept-character-ideas.jpg
You might call this the Lore Keeper, a bard who has expanded their breadth of magical knowledge into the world of wizardy. This would require the bard to spend or have spent some time with wizards or at least a spell book.
Dipping bard gives some skills, and jack of all trades. The spell slot progression keeps this from being terrible, but there is no obvious reason to leave wizard. It is MAD.
Half-Elf
Wizard 5+/Lore Bard 2+
8, 14, 15, 16, 8, 14
Any wizard might be jealous of the bard's skill potential. Jack of All trades is a great boost for both initiative and various skills. The drawback on wizard progression is impactful though.
Wizard/Cleric
https://orig00.deviantart.net/0fcf/f/2012/103/5/8/mystic_theurge_by_jasonengle-d4w2g6j.jpg
You might call this a Mystic Theurge, a master of both prayer and study. This classic multiclass is the scholarly cleric that took up wizardry or the faithful wizard who took favor from his god.
Dipping cleric gives spells, and cool domain features. There are several domains that augment all casting in ways a pure wizard can't achieve. Heavy armor is a great boon to the wizard, and this is the best way to get it without getting behind on slots.
Human V.
Invoker 5+/Tempest 2
8, 14, 14, 16, 13, 9
This wizard can use it's channel divinity to maximize it's lightning bolts once per short rest. Solid damage at level 7+. Heavy/medium armor and healing makes him much hardier than a typical wizard.
Wizard/Druid
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/38/be/9238be8625e38d36b6e8a4b6fa80c211.jpg
You might call this a Recluse, someone caught up in study of the arcane and the natural. It is natural for an intellectual to take an interest in the arcane or the natural magic, whichever is new to them.
Dipping druid gives spells and wildshape. Wildshape is pretty useless in combat due to its poor scaling. There is little reason to do this, and probably best left to niche builds.
Human V.
Conjurer 14/Shepherd Druid 6
8, 14, 14, 16, 13, 9
This high level build is the master summoner, his conjured beasts getting bonuses from both his wizard feature and his druid feature.
Wizard/Fighter
https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0460/81/1458258953669.png
You might call this a Spellsword, a warrior whose martial process is augmented by research of magic.
Dipping fighter is best done at first level for heavy armor and con save proficiency. Action surge can come later, likely after level 5 wizard, to enable extra nova ability. It one of the best dips for a wizard, and probably best left at 2 levels, possibly 6 if the wizard wants to be more melee focused.
Human V. (PAM)
Fighter 1/Abjurer 2+
16, 8, 14, 16, 10, 8
PAM with haste allows this gish to make a BB/GFB attack along with two attacks from PAM. Abjurer ward along with heavy armor makes this a very hardy character. Dueling style + staff and shield is a strong combo for any martial, and makes up for the lack of extra attack, even at level 1. Very strong build that is still mostly a wizard.
Wizard/Monk
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/d1/80/40d18035d0ac8c65b6d04da4e2fa126b--character-concept-character-art.jpg
You might call this an Enlightened Fist, a martial artist who has taken on the study of arcane magic.
Dipping monk offers little, at the cost of heavy MADness. I'd avoid this altogether.
Wizard/Paladin
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e9/23/7e/e9237ef94e22091877483e269490d03e--fantasy-male-fantasy-rpg.jpg
You might call this an Eldritch Smiter, a devoted warrior who has taken the time to study the secrets of the arcane.
Dipping paladin gives heavy armor at first level, and smite at second level. This would be good if there were any reason to do this over Sorcerer/Paladin. As it stands it does almost the same without the option to quicken, and at the extra cost of MAD. It’s a cheap imitation, best avoided.
Half-Elf
Paladin 2/Abjurer 5+
16, 8, 14, 15, 8, 14
There are a few good spells that make this work. By level 13 Tenser's Transformation will be a welcome spell. Smites and full caster is always powerful nova potential.
Wizard/Ranger
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/44/e9/08/44e908c6aa362bf0951a04e2e1391634--fantasy-characters-female-characters.jpg
You might call this a Seeker, a scout warrior and study of arcane secrets.
Dipping ranger gives some skills, different spells, and proficiencies for weapon options. It’s MAD, and doesn’t lend itself to anything well. Best left for niche builds.
Wizard/Rogue
https://i.redd.it/zbsml3vtb2yz.png
You might call this a Spell Thief, a master of stealth and arcane study.
Dipping rogue gives some skills, expertise, cunning action, and possibly an archetype. This is a common combination with wizard and arcane trickster. Bladesinger is good choice for rogues, who lack typically use light armor already. Could also be viable with assassin, in conjunction with spells capable of critting such as scorching ray.
Wizard/Sorcerer
http://www.worldofazolin.com/wiki/images/thumb/c/c6/Ultimatemagus.jpg/180px-Ultimatemagus.jpg
You might call this an Ultimate Magus, a true master of arcane magic through both blood and study.
Dipping sorcerer gives metamagic at 3rd level. This is viable at serious cost of progression. Metamagic can be great in combination with wizard spells, but it is MAD, and very tough to choose when to take those levels of sorcerer.
Half-Elf
Wizard 5+/Sorcerer 3+
8, 14, 15, 16, 8, 14
Metamagic is the major appeal here. Lots of potential.
Wizard/Warlock
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/6d/2c/b46d2c2a18c5bd7f3ec23b6f8006d3bd.jpg
You might call this an Egoist, or something similar, an arcane caster so obsessed with power that they look for its secrets anywhere.
Dipping warlock gives some different spells, short rest slots, possibly invocations and a pact. There are some interesting combinations here but most are too MAD to be seriously competent. A good example of a niche build is a necromancer that picks up 5 levels in warlock in order to use short rest slots to cast more animate dead's per day. It is gimmicky and requires an excess number of short rest to even compete with the slots generated by taking more levels in wizard. This is probably best left for niche builds.
CaptAl
2016-09-30, 09:15 PM
I haven't had time just yet to fully examine your analysis, but, I would like to say bravo. Thank you for providing what could be an excellent tool for our community.
Oramac
2016-09-30, 10:39 PM
I haven't had time just yet to fully examine your analysis, but, I would like to say bravo. Thank you for providing what could be an excellent tool for our community.
I will second this.
At first glance, everything looks great and all the breakpoints make sense.
Well done!
Gastronomie
2016-09-30, 11:15 PM
This is truly an amazing guide, and now that it's here, it's actually more of a question why no one has ever thought of creating this before. It's truly helpful.
However, of course, it's impossible for one person to look through all 144 possibilities in here. Whenever we think up ideas, we should comment them in this thread so PeteNutButter can evaluate them, and if considered viable, edit them into the original posts.
For instance, you rated Wizard/Warlock as Black and Purple, and while I generally agree with that rating, you might add that depending on how generous the DM is, Necromancers may benefit from going Warlock 5 for lots and lots more uses of Animate Dead. These sorts of minor but still fun gimmicks could be listed in each column, to offer some build ideas.
SillyPopeNachos
2016-10-01, 12:20 AM
The Eldritch Knight cross-classes with the Pladain 2 better than the champion, as you can nova for an average of around 150 damage at top level, even though it comes online at level 5 and really hits the ground hard at level 7. Level 13, however, is when it truly starts to shine, as one can smite 6 times in a round via action surge. While not nearly as sustainable as the 4 attacks a single-classed fighter would get, you can easily surpass the damage of certain 9th-level spells (power word kill) on single target.
Edit: Eldritch knight 12 and Ancients Paladin 8 grants epic magic resistance, the same first-turn burst damage and slightly more spell slots, but you'll only ever learn up to 2nd level spells.
Fflewddur Fflam
2016-10-01, 12:55 AM
You’ve done a great job with this, but as a monk fanatic, let me add some arguments for some unlikely monk multiclass options.
Monk 12/Bladesinger Wizard 8
Example Build: Wood Elf Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 8
Multiclassing to wizard is basically the best option for a gish, the wizard spell list offers more spells to self-buff from than any other class. The important thing to remember is that all of these buffing spells like Shield, Mirror Image, Haste, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, etc. are not dependant on your spellcasting ability score, so you don’t have to increase it with ASI's and you can just pump up Dex and Wis as you would normally do on a monk.
Bladesinger gives you some nice combat perks, adding your Int to AC, concentration checks, and increasing your already fast monk speed. And if you play the AL mod DDEX1-6 “The Scroll Thief”, you can end up with the Headband of Intellect for an Int of 19. I did this with my Monk/Wizard and his current AC while Bladesinging is 20, will be eventually 24 with max Dex and Wis, add on +5 to that with Shield or whatever. You get the picture, he’s crazy good.
Shadow Monk 12/Fiend-Chain Warlock 8
Example Build: Half-Elf (Drow) Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 14
As you noted, this has a nice synergy with shadow monk so you can actually see through your Darkness with Devil’s Sight. Go Pact of the Chain and get an Imp familiar with Devil’s Sight as well and he can carry around a little pebble that you cast Darkness on to have mobile Darkness that you place and move strategically wherever you want. Darkness isn’t as big a problem for the rest of the party as some might think.
You can keep Darkness off your spellcaster’s targets and put it on foes that you and your melee attackers are targeting (or just keep it on yourself when you move in and out). Because the Blinded condition from Darkness give an attacker disadvantage on attacks but their blinded targets give their attackers advantage to hit them, it all cancels out anyway. But of course your Monk/Warlock shrouded in Darkness with Devil’s Sight will get advantage on attacks, be able to move away without creating AoO, can’t be targeted by most spells, and attackers will have disadvantage to attack him. A very nice situation for your gish.
As with the Monk/Wizard, your buffing spells don’t benefit from pumping up your spellcasting ability so you can just pump Dex and Wis as normal. Resilient Con is a nice feat for this build to maintain concentration on their Darkness, etc. Going Half-Drow gives you an extra way to cast Darkness without having to spend ki or a spell slot.
Monk 8/Paladin 4/Draconic Sorcerer 8
Example Build: Human Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 13
Start 1st level as Sorcerer for Con saves for concentration, go to monk at 2nd level.
As you said, a monk/paladin build is MAD as hell but with the good old regular human getting +1 in every ability score, you can make a viable monk/paladin/sorcerer. You pump Dex and Wis as usual, no need to pump your spellcasting ability as you are just using your sorcerer spell slots for buffs and divine smites. As we know, we can twin Booming Blade or quicken Green-Flame Blade for some metamagic fun. You can smite with your monk, or smite AND stun. Just have fun as a Holy Warrior with radiant fists of fury!
So these are just 3 gish builds for monk that one can have fun with. Even though monk is MAD, you don’t have to be crazy to try out some fun monk/spellcaster combos! :smallwink:
RaynorReynolds
2016-10-01, 08:02 AM
This is great. I would also add options for a third multiclass. Maybe just forbspecific builds.
PeteNutButter
2016-10-01, 08:43 AM
This is truly an amazing guide, and now that it's here, it's actually more of a question why no one has ever thought of creating this before. It's truly helpful.
However, of course, it's impossible for one person to look through all 144 possibilities in here. Whenever we think up ideas, we should comment them in this thread so PeteNutButter can evaluate them, and if considered viable, edit them into the original posts.
For instance, you rated Wizard/Warlock as Black and Purple, and while I generally agree with that rating, you might add that depending on how generous the DM is, Necromancers may benefit from going Warlock 5 for lots and lots more uses of Animate Dead. These sorts of minor but still fun gimmicks could be listed in each column, to offer some build ideas.
Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback. I'd love to add more build ideas into each individual entry. So please keep them coming!
The Eldritch Knight cross-classes with the Pladain 2 better than the champion, as you can nova for an average of around 150 damage at top level, even though it comes online at level 5 and really hits the ground hard at level 7. Level 13, however, is when it truly starts to shine, as one can smite 6 times in a round via action surge. While not nearly as sustainable as the 4 attacks a single-classed fighter would get, you can easily surpass the damage of certain 9th-level spells (power word kill) on single target.
I can edit the wording to include that, but I'm not sure it justifies changing any colors. It seems like a niche build that would probably come on line pretty late. It can't do anything a paladin/fighter does better/more frequently until level 13 when he can have both smite and 3 attacks. I see EK/Paladin as significantly more viable when combined with some full caster to round out the spell slots. What does the community think?
You’ve done a great job with this, but as a monk fanatic, let me add some arguments for some unlikely monk multiclass options.
Monk 12/Bladesinger Wizard 8
Example Build: Wood Elf Str 8 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 8
Multiclassing to wizard is basically the best option for a gish, the wizard spell list offers more spells to self-buff from than any other class. The important thing to remember is that all of these buffing spells like Shield, Mirror Image, Haste, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, etc. are not dependant on your spellcasting ability score, so you don’t have to increase it with ASI's and you can just pump up Dex and Wis as you would normally do on a monk.
Bladesinger gives you some nice combat perks, adding your Int to AC, concentration checks, and increasing your already fast monk speed. And if you play the AL mod DDEX1-6 “The Scroll Thief”, you can end up with the Headband of Intellect for an Int of 19. I did this with my Monk/Wizard and his current AC while Bladesinging is 20, will be eventually 24 with max Dex and Wis, add on +5 to that with Shield or whatever. You get the picture, he’s crazy good.
Shadow Monk 12/Fiend-Chain Warlock 8
Example Build: Half-Elf (Drow) Str 8 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 14
As you noted, this has a nice synergy with shadow monk so you can actually see through your Darkness with Devil’s Sight. Go Pact of the Chain and get an Imp familiar with Devil’s Sight as well and he can carry around a little pebble that you cast Darkness on to have mobile Darkness that you place and move strategically wherever you want. Darkness isn’t as big a problem for the rest of the party as some might think.
You can keep Darkness off your spellcaster’s targets and put it on foes that you and your melee attackers are targeting (or just keep it on yourself when you move in and out). Because the Blinded condition from Darkness give an attacker disadvantage on attacks but their blinded targets give their attackers advantage to hit them, it all cancels out anyway. But of course your Monk/Warlock shrouded in Darkness with Devil’s Sight will get advantage on attacks, be able to move away without creating AoO, can’t be targeted by most spells, and attackers will have disadvantage to attack him. A very nice situation for your gish.
As with the Monk/Wizard, your buffing spells don’t benefit from pumping up your spellcasting ability so you can just pump Dex and Wis as normal. Resilient Con is a nice feat for this build to maintain concentration on their Darkness, etc. Going Half-Drow gives you an extra way to cast Darkness without having to spend ki or a spell slot.
Monk 8/Paladin 4/Draconic Sorcerer 8
Example Build: Human Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 13
Start 1st level as Sorcerer for Con saves for concentration, go to monk at 2nd level.
As you said, a monk/paladin build is MAD as hell but with the good old regular human getting +1 in every ability score, you can make a viable monk/paladin/sorcerer. You pump Dex and Wis as usual, no need to pump your spellcasting ability as you are just using your sorcerer spell slots for buffs and divine smites. As we know, we can twin Booming Blade or quicken Green-Flame Blade for some metamagic fun. You can smite with your monk, or smite AND stun. Just have fun as a Holy Warrior with radiant fists of fury!
So these are just 3 gish builds for monk that one can have fun with. Even though monk is MAD, you don’t have to be crazy to try out some fun monk/spellcaster combos! :smallwink:
Thank you for your input, and I'd love to incorporate these all into the comments. I'll freely admit that certain classes haven't seen much play in my groups, making most of my decisions based purely on theory crafting, monk being one of them. But let's dissect your creative, fun, and MAD monk ideas. :smallbiggrin:
Monk/Wizard: I greatly refute that wizard is the best class for a gish. IMO it will always be sorcerer with access to pretty much all the same spells, but the ability to swing and still buff in the same round with quicken, or twin things like haste. Bladesinger is a good way to add AC to anything, but is it worth the MADness? The loss of con really hurts a d8 hit die class that tends to be in melee, and +2 AC isn't anything to write home about. You are also doubling up on extra attack. The headband of int can't be considered as any build could be viable if a character had a bunch of 19s. What you end up with is an AC that is comparable to any other front liner, when bladesinging, and a still low AC when not. As long as this character is boosting dex his AC is the same as a standard wizard with mage armor on. I'm sure the build operates just fine, especially with an item giving a free 19, but it is definitely niche.
Monk/Warlock: For starters I'd probably never leave monk just two levels shy of Diamond Soul. You mention wanting to pick up resilient con, why not just take diamond soul and get all saves? Admittedly it does come rather late. As mentioned in the guide the Monk, doesn't do the darkness/Devil's Sight combo any better than any other class. It still takes an action to work, still doesn't always work, and still can alienate the team. The fact that advantage and disadvantage cancel out is moot point if your DM adjudicates that you can't attack what you can't see. Your party should essentially be picking a 5' square they think the foe is in based likely on perception, and attempt to attack there. A foe who does any movement should be very hard to pinpoint in the fray of battle with total blindness. In the meantime you'll have less AC and hit points than a standard monk, and until you pickup warlock, no benefit. The imp thing is a good idea. This does work, I just don't think its optimal.
Monk/Pal/Sorc: This one seems to just be a sorcerer/paladin that threw monk in because the player liked monk.:smalltongue: I mean the competition for bonus action gets pretty heavy with all the monk's existing options and now quicken spells. Quickened and twinned GFB/BB are great on a sorcerer paladin as ways to get a bonus action attack, and a way to imitate extra attack on separate foes. On a monk the, quickening a GFB will often deal less damage than using flurry. The only thing I see this build offering is a bit more mobility, and stunning strikes with a low DC. AC and hit points are lower than a paladin/sorcerer. It lacks the amazing saves of aura of protection, and has some very difficult progression between the 3 classes. It could be viable, but definitely a niche build.
Unless the community disagrees with me, I don't think these call for any changing colors. But please keep the ideas flowing.
Naanomi
2016-10-01, 09:17 AM
Rogue 3/Barbarian 17 can be very effective with a two handed weapon, relying on Assassin crits with Inproved Critical (half orc helps) and the Great Axe for some devastating surprise rounds on a scout that can hold their own if caught
EDIT: also don't neglect to mention Archery style as a benefit for a 1 level fighter dip for a Rogue/Fighter trying to be an assassin/sniper
Also, some exploration of 3+ class build might be good later, as they tend to be 'dip repeatedly for good stuff'. I've played both a Rogue 6/Cleric 1/Bard 10/Warlock 3 and a Warlock 11/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Rogue 3 (not leveled in that order of course) that were fun and functional, and a player at my table is doing a (admittedly MAD) monk/rogue/Warlock that is operating great
PeteNutButter
2016-10-01, 11:41 AM
Rogue 3/Barbarian 17 can be very effective with a two handed weapon, relying on Assassin crits with Inproved Critical (half orc helps) and the Great Axe for some devastating surprise rounds on a scout that can hold their own if caught
EDIT: also don't neglect to mention Archery style as a benefit for a 1 level fighter dip for a Rogue/Fighter trying to be an assassin/sniper
Also, some exploration of 3+ class build might be good later, as they tend to be 'dip repeatedly for good stuff'. I've played both a Rogue 6/Cleric 1/Bard 10/Warlock 3 and a Warlock 11/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Rogue 3 (not leveled in that order of course) that were fun and functional, and a player at my table is doing a (admittedly MAD) monk/rogue/Warlock that is operating great
I updated the Barb/Rogue section to mention this, although I think it's overall a little hard/rare to pull off surprise on melee, especially lacking spells. It is also outpaced by fighter, despite the increased criticals of barbarian, the extra attack is more valuable. I had designed a build around that idea here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479210-The-True-Murder-Hobo-A-one-trick-Nova-Build
I updated the Rogue/Fighter section as well, regarding the archery style.
I'd like to include 3 classes, actually mentioned one or two during the guide, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. If I add colored breakpoints, it might demonstrate that many classes offer great benefits within the first 4 levels.
Thanks for the input!
odigity
2016-10-01, 12:46 PM
Haven't read through yet (just finished opening all spoiler boxes), but damn - that was a lot of work.
BTW - The chart demonstrates well how the Cha-based classes are like an Indian buffet - each item mixes well with each other item.
I wish the same were true for the other abilities. Everytime I try to think up a new build, it always gets drawn towards the Cha classes like some kind of gravity well...
Edit: You wrote a paragraph for each of the 132 possible class combinations?
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/974/clap.gif
RaynorReynolds
2016-10-01, 02:42 PM
a player at my table is doing a (admittedly MAD) monk/rogue/Warlock that is operating great
I am running this build too. Monk 6/Warlock (2-5)/Rogue (9-12). Works really well. Hex, Sneak attack, invocations, and most of the Monk goodies.
EvilAnagram
2016-10-01, 03:00 PM
Thank you!
I'm not a multiclasser, so the frequent questions on multiclassing in my guides have always been a bit tedious, and I've been aware of the fact that my bias can limit my helpfulness in those situations.
But now we have a real multiclassing guide! A completely thorough and well written one, at that! I'm so happy!
Edit: And making each bit of info a collapsible box was a good idea for this guide. It makes it much easier to find what you want.
Naanomi
2016-10-01, 03:25 PM
My vision: scouting ahead of the party is the half orc assassin/Barbarian. He is wearing no armor, has reasonable Dex (16) and expertise in stealth, traveling at normal speeds (wolf totem). He may be coming from a weird angle due to his unmatched climbing abilities. He spots his foes.
When he is 55 feet away (elk totem), he rages and charges with his great axe. He gets three attacks (GWM would almost guarantee the third, but Tiger totem ensures it) with advantage, each dealing 6d12+9 damage, plus potentially magic weapon and poison boosts (as an assassin he knows how to apply poison), and if the math works out to do so another +10 with GWM.
If foes survive, he may still be getting some surprise attacks for a second similar round if they lose initiative (he has advantage and a good bonus to the roll); and he can 55 speed/cunning action-dash back to the party or stick it out with general barbarian-ness while they catch up. Potential for grappling a foe if the survivors think about escaping
Pointbuy: 17/15/16/9/9/9
Totem: elk, wolf, tiger
Stealth, perception, athletics, (+3 of choice) (expertise in stealth and athletics), thief tools
ASI: +1 Dex/Str, +2 Str, GWM, Alert
Firechanter
2016-10-01, 03:35 PM
Cool beans!
Actually I was thinking of writing up something very similar. But I gotta admit, you did it better. ;)
What I'd yet edit into the combos: a line for "Qualification", i.e. how easy or hard it is to meet the ability requirements.
Fflewddur Fflam
2016-10-01, 03:40 PM
Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback. I'd love to add more build ideas into each individual entry. So please keep them coming!
I can edit the wording to include that, but I'm not sure it justifies changing any colors. It seems like a niche build that would probably come on line pretty late. It can't do anything a paladin/fighter does better/more frequently until level 13 when he can have both smite and 3 attacks. I see EK/Paladin as significantly more viable when combined with some full caster to round out the spell slots. What does the community think?
Thank you for your input, and I'd love to incorporate these all into the comments. I'll freely admit that certain classes haven't seen much play in my groups, making most of my decisions based purely on theory crafting, monk being one of them. But let's dissect your creative, fun, and MAD monk ideas. :smallbiggrin:
Monk/Wizard: I greatly refute that wizard is the best class for a gish. IMO it will always be sorcerer with access to pretty much all the same spells, but the ability to swing and still buff in the same round with quicken, or twin things like haste. Bladesinger is a good way to add AC to anything, but is it worth the MADness? The loss of con really hurts a d8 hit die class that tends to be in melee, and +2 AC isn't anything to write home about. You are also doubling up on extra attack. The headband of int can't be considered as any build could be viable if a character had a bunch of 19s. What you end up with is an AC that is comparable to any other front liner, when bladesinging, and a still low AC when not. As long as this character is boosting dex his AC is the same as a standard wizard with mage armor on. I'm sure the build operates just fine, especially with an item giving a free 19, but it is definitely niche.
Monk/Warlock: For starters I'd probably never leave monk just two levels shy of Diamond Soul. You mention wanting to pick up resilient con, why not just take diamond soul and get all saves? Admittedly it does come rather late. As mentioned in the guide the Monk, doesn't do the darkness/Devil's Sight combo any better than any other class. It still takes an action to work, still doesn't always work, and still can alienate the team. The fact that advantage and disadvantage cancel out is moot point if your DM adjudicates that you can't attack what you can't see. Your party should essentially be picking a 5' square they think the foe is in based likely on perception, and attempt to attack there. A foe who does any movement should be very hard to pinpoint in the fray of battle with total blindness. In the meantime you'll have less AC and hit points than a standard monk, and until you pickup warlock, no benefit. The imp thing is a good idea. This does work, I just don't think its optimal.
Monk/Pal/Sorc: This one seems to just be a sorcerer/paladin that threw monk in because the player liked monk.:smalltongue: I mean the competition for bonus action gets pretty heavy with all the monk's existing options and now quicken spells. Quickened and twinned GFB/BB are great on a sorcerer paladin as ways to get a bonus action attack, and a way to imitate extra attack on separate foes. On a monk the, quickening a GFB will often deal less damage than using flurry. The only thing I see this build offering is a bit more mobility, and stunning strikes with a low DC. AC and hit points are lower than a paladin/sorcerer. It lacks the amazing saves of aura of protection, and has some very difficult progression between the 3 classes. It could be viable, but definitely a niche build.
Unless the community disagrees with me, I don't think these call for any changing colors. But please keep the ideas flowing.
So, just to refute some of your refutations! :smallwink:
Monk/Wizard.
The sorcerer certainly doesn't get nearly all the spells a wizard gets, not even close, and wizard can make a far better gish because of this (especially with a wizard subclass designed for gishing, Bladesinging). Sorcerers don't get Fireshield which is probably the best buff for a gish ever (in no small part because it doesn't require concentration). Doubling up on Extra Attack is unavoidable with Bladesinger because you need to get to at least 7th level to get those great 4th level spells like Fireshield.
Having +2 AC is never something to sneeze at in 5e, either. If this were the case, no one would ever use shields.
Monk/Warlock
You talk about not wanting a monk to be two levels shy of Diamond Soul, and I get that but most likely you are never ever getting to level 14 monk in a multiclass build. Why? Because, first of all, you are not going all 14 levels of monk before you take your other multiclass levels of warlock (or whatever) and because of this, you literally would have to hit level 20 to get to level 14 monk. I've never met anyone with a level 20 character in 5e, certainly none of the officially released adventures or material supports it, so we are talking about a hypothetical level that would be great to get to, but we simply aren't going to get to.
I've got a single class Open Hand Monk that I would love to get to level 17 for Quivering Palm, don't know if I will ever be able to get him there, though. That's the problem you always have to consider, "sure I would like to get this high level feature, but will I ever realistically get there? Probably not." THAT'S why I recommend putting Resilient Con on a character such as this monk/warlock, because it's something that can benefit the character through much of his adventuring life, not waiting for a 14th level monk ability that he's never going to see because he's never going to get to 20th level to pick it up.
Also, if you have a DM that equates Darkness or the Invisible condition with being "hidden" then you have a bad DM who doesn't understand the rules. It does not equate with being hidden and you have to take the Hide action while invisible or in darkness to actually be hidden. A good spell and strategy like using Darkness cannot be dismissed because of a DM that doesn't understand the rules.
On my monk/paladin/sorcerer build, I plead guilty as charged. I just wanted to make a monk that could do divine smites. So sue me! :smallwink:
odigity
2016-10-01, 03:40 PM
The fighter class is a great class that is unique as the only class giving more than 2 attacks with the attack action. The fighter typically acts as a melee or ranged damage dealer, or a tank. They have some battlefield control options via grapple and shove, possibly aided by feats and maneuvers. They are also the only class that grants extra ASIs, notably at levels 6 and 14.
Rogues also get an extra ASI at 10, which is why Rogue 12 / Fighter 8 still yields 7 ASIs, just like pure Fighter.
PeteNutButter
2016-10-01, 10:11 PM
Rogues also get an extra ASI at 10, which is why Rogue 12 / Fighter 8 still yields 7 ASIs, just like pure Fighter.
You're right. I've edited it.
Corran
2016-10-01, 11:42 PM
Great great guide! Trully, congrats for the effort you put into this!
Now, I will try to contribute, hopefully.
First off, I think you have the ratings of fighter/warlock and warlock/fighter backwards. From what I was able to understand from the X/y & Y/x section, warlock/fighter refers to a character with more warlock levels, and fighter/warlock refers to a character with more fighter levels, right? Eh well, if that is the case and I didnt get it all wrong, I think that a fighter dip on a warlock is of more value than a warlock dip on a fighter, meaning that the warlock/fighter should have a better rating than the fighter/warlock. And ofc I am refering to a bladelock (or at least a warlock built for melee).
Secondly, I am a bit puzzled over the gold rating. To me, this rating should be applied only when a certain multiclass combo outperforms the single class (which is very hard to judge), or when a dip is essential because the class is lackluster for the role we want to fill. So, for example, a sorcerer/warlock should not be gold, as we cannot objectively say that this combo outperforms the pure sorcerer (yes, it has better at will damage, but delayed spell progression; yes, some people think it's all the money, others dont value it so much because they want to get better spells faster). Alternatively, the warlock/fighter should be gold, assuming it refers to a warlock who wants to be used in melee (and this is not a gimmicky build, as pact of the blade was clearly made for this, ie building a warlock for melee is a valid and even suggested by the mechanics approach). And because the warlock class is a bit lackluster on its own to be used on melee, the fighter dip is pretty much very much needed, and we can certainly say that it is perhaps the most efficient way to go about it (certainly better than going pure warlock), so that is why the warlock/fighter should be gold IMO.
So........ gold ratings should be applied IMO, only to multiclass combinations that outperform the singleclass, NOT in one or two aspects, but on the whole. Meaning, when the single class is not enough on its own to support a function (NOT gimmick) that it is supposed and suggested to have (ie, a legitimate suggested option; going melee with a warlock is such an option; building the strongest possible at will is not for a sorcerer, that is us putting effort to produce sth we want).
Hence, besides the warlock/fighter, and perhaps the trickery cleric/rogue, I wouldnt think that there are many gold options. Many skyblue or even blue options might even be better than the two gold options I suggest above, but that does not matter, as the gold option should only point out when a dip is essentially necessary and strictly better than the single class in regard to a ''recommended'' approach (and not a gimmick) of the class/combat role you intended to play.
(I was tempted to suggest a gold rating for strogue/fighter and other multiclass assassin builds, but that would lead us to a more gimmicky territory and it is not the same as with the warlock/fighter or the trickery cleric/rogue, where in those two last cases the class/archetype features cannot sufficiently support the character.)
------------------------------------------
Also, the wizard/cleric (pick a domain that grants you heavy armor prof) has some extra value for enchenters, I would think, for the ability to use Sanctuary/Hypnotic Gaze/Instinctive Charm + Blur, all while clad in heavy armor (athletics proficiency through background). Perhaps this should be skyblue instead of blue? Meaning that since we are mainly a wizard (as one level of cleric would be enough for this), then we should point out that the enchanter is the one who can make the most of this specific multiclass combination?
ps: Haven't really thought this through, it is just one of the many ideas I have shamelessly stolen from this forum and saved it in my dnd folder to potentially use it in the future:smalltongue:
PeteNutButter
2016-10-02, 12:50 AM
Great great guide! Trully, congrats for the effort you put into this!
Now, I will try to contribute, hopefully.
First off, I think you have the ratings of fighter/warlock and warlock/fighter backwards. From what I was able to understand from the X/y & Y/x section, warlock/fighter refers to a character with more warlock levels, and fighter/warlock refers to a character with more fighter levels, right? Eh well, if that is the case and I didnt get it all wrong, I think that a fighter dip on a warlock is of more value than a warlock dip on a fighter, meaning that the warlock/fighter should have a better rating than the fighter/warlock. And ofc I am refering to a bladelock (or at least a warlock built for melee).
I'm not sure what the issue is here. I currently have Warlock/Fighter at gold, and Fighter/Warlock blue. I totally agree in that a bladelock practically needs to start fighter (or paladin).
Secondly, I am a bit puzzled over the gold rating. To me, this rating should be applied only when a certain multiclass combo outperforms the single class (which is very hard to judge)...
You are suggesting changing the definition of gold. While that makes some good sense, I think you said it yourself as to why I shouldn't. Its just too hard to judge in most cases. It is easy for the community to agree that certain combinations are strong, but much harder to get a real consensus on whether they are stronger than the base class.
Another issue I have with this is there is no class that requires a multiclass, just some subclasses. I can edit the comments under specific entries, even add key colors when combined with subclasses (such as Trickery/Rogue), but it'd be misleading to rate all cleric/rogue gold because trickery clerics are basically just bad without some help. (I'd argue they are still the worst domain, with or without MC, but that's beside the point.) It would also be confusing to those new or in a hurry, as gold ratings would end up exclusively on what are generally weaker subclasses.
Also, the wizard/cleric (pick a domain that grants you heavy armor prof) has some extra value for enchanters, I would think, for the ability to use Sanctuary/Hypnotic Gaze/Instinctive Charm + Blur, all while clad in heavy armor (athletics proficiency through background). Perhaps this should be skyblue instead of blue? Meaning that since we are mainly a wizard (as one level of cleric would be enough for this), then we should point out that the enchanter is the one who can make the most of this specific multiclass combination?
ps: Haven't really thought this through, it is just one of the many ideas I have shamelessly stolen from this forum and saved it in my dnd folder to potentially use it in the future:smalltongue:
That is a very good combination, and you may be right. I personally find it more attractive taking first level in cleric than taking first level in fighter, as spell slots progress with cleric. I can point out that combination for sure. I am also a fan of necromancer utilizing the very effective inflict wounds to trigger his level 2 ability. Alas it is currently Sky Blue on the chart. :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: I just realized some of the later classes apparently got copied over without the colors inside all their breakdown boxes.:smalleek: That was most likely a source of confusion here. I've remedied the issue.
Waazraath
2016-10-02, 07:16 AM
Very nice, thank you for the effort!
As has been mentioned, it's a bit difficult that subclasses aren't included, because some combinations work and some don't, depending on subclasses. Including sub classes would lead to a lot more work, and an unreadable table, so I understand why it's not done. Still, somebody who uses this tool to do a quick scan on possible combinations (and doesn't read all the text, just the table), might loos nice combinations.
Oh well, don't know if anything can be done about that.
Some words on multiclass combinations:
- monk / wizard: the combination Quivering palm (way of the open hand 17) portent (diviner 2) is great; save or die, except for the save. Level 19 earliest though.
- monk / warlock: I think there is more synergy than you describe. A warlock 3 dip gives cantrips (including a good ranged attack, which monk doesn't have), two invocations; for example the mentioned devils sight (for the shadow monk), but also for examle mask of many faces (disguise self at will can really help with scouting). And 2 level 2 spells which recharge at a short rest, like a reaction attack (which most monks don't have); or extra damage (hex), or extra defense and damage (Armor of Agatys); and there's the pact boon and the patron, which can give for example telepathy and an invisible familiar (for a scout type) or temporary hitpoints for a regular frontliner.
- fighter / bard: lore bard 6 (ok, don't know if this still count as 'dip') can give powerful melee spells, like spirit guardians, the third level paladin smite, Armor of Agatys, or for a mounted combat build: find steed for a horsy.
PeteNutButter
2016-10-04, 07:47 PM
Very nice, thank you for the effort!
As has been mentioned, it's a bit difficult that subclasses aren't included, because some combinations work and some don't, depending on subclasses. Including sub classes would lead to a lot more work, and an unreadable table, so I understand why it's not done. Still, somebody who uses this tool to do a quick scan on possible combinations (and doesn't read all the text, just the table), might loos nice combinations.
Oh well, don't know if anything can be done about that.
Some words on multiclass combinations:
- monk / wizard: the combination Quivering palm (way of the open hand 17) portent (diviner 2) is great; save or die, except for the save. Level 19 earliest though.
- monk / warlock: I think there is more synergy than you describe. A warlock 3 dip gives cantrips (including a good ranged attack, which monk doesn't have), two invocations; for example the mentioned devils sight (for the shadow monk), but also for examle mask of many faces (disguise self at will can really help with scouting). And 2 level 2 spells which recharge at a short rest, like a reaction attack (which most monks don't have); or extra damage (hex), or extra defense and damage (Armor of Agatys); and there's the pact boon and the patron, which can give for example telepathy and an invisible familiar (for a scout type) or temporary hitpoints for a regular frontliner.
- fighter / bard: lore bard 6 (ok, don't know if this still count as 'dip') can give powerful melee spells, like spirit guardians, the third level paladin smite, Armor of Agatys, or for a mounted combat build: find steed for a horsy.
Including subclasses in the chart would definitely be too difficult to work. I don't think its a big deal for most classes, as they behave pretty similarly. Warlock and cleric seem the most different based on subclass, changing roles and proficiencies.
The quivering palm with diviner is a really cool trick. It's a hella long way to go for starting with a 13 int, probably better if someone else in the party picked it up if you don't have a wizard/he's a different school. At that level you could probably hire a hireling or a dozen... What a busted encounter that would be... a dozen diviners. DMs please don't do that to your players.
I hear a lot of success stories with the warlock rogue. I think it is quite viable, as are potentially any two classes together. I try and keep the ratings based on the obvious in class synergy. Those things you mentioned aren't really monk strengths, just adding versatility. The ranged attack would be nice, as most monks lack a good one, but since it's cha based it'll never be more than passable without sacrificing key monk stats. Monk's answer to ranged attacks are usually javelins, sun soul, or just run up and punch them with fast movement speed.
Fighter/Bard is a cool way to pick up a couple nice spells, but most of those could be picked up in the class the spells originally came from. Cleric for example has more obvious synergy, and comes with other goodies. I do like the find steed choice though, since otherwise you'd have to double up on extra attack with paladin 5.
Maxilian
2016-10-13, 09:53 AM
Right now i'm playing a Druid of the Moon 8 / SS monk X and it works quite well, the transformation allow you to concentrate on WIS and use your animal form DEX to attack, i normally use it with a Flying Snake (19 DEX) giving me a good AC, i do have a poor HP in my animal form but the Flying Snake is a tiny creature, so you can easily get full cover and you do have a nice speed, so you will normally have enough movement to move from one cover to the other (and if you happen to be in melee, you still have Flyby), also you will get some extra spells from the Druid and having in mind that you concentrated more into WIS, your spells will have a good DC.
Note: You can also use the Conjure Animals before transforming to have a flock of flying snakes (8 summons + you) -They do have a pretty decent damage for their CR, and you could combine it with Stunning Strike to make them do some serious damage.
Note2: I have been playing this mainly as a themed character (Monk from the Monastery of the Golden Flying Snake -Based around Quetzalcoatl-
Arkhios
2016-10-13, 01:34 PM
Rules as written wearing metal armor does NOT strip away druid's abilities. The tendency to not use them is there only as a sort of reminder that most druids find it distasteful; It's just one type of ribbon features - it has no mechanical weight or value. None of the class features rules that wearing metal armor would suddenly make them non-functional. As such, Fighter/Druid combination isn't as bad as you might think.
odigity
2016-10-13, 05:02 PM
Rules as written wearing metal armor does NOT strip away druid's abilities. The tendency to not use them is there only as a sort of reminder that most druids find it distasteful; It's just one type of ribbon features - it has no mechanical weight or value. None of the class features rules that wearing metal armor would suddenly make them non-functional. As such, Fighter/Druid combination isn't as bad as you might think.
The rules text is in the Druid class armor proficiencies section:
"(druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal)"
So if that's not a rule, what is it? A naive prediction? :)
Arkhios
2016-10-13, 05:27 PM
The rules text is in the Druid class armor proficiencies section:
"(druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal)"
So if that's not a rule, what is it? A naive prediction? :)
This issue has been addressed in Sage Advice by Jeremy Crawford, 3/21/2016 (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-march-2016):
"What happens if a druid wears metal armor? The druid explodes.
Well, not actually. Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the class’s story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Player’s Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that aren’t the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids don’t lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to.
A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand-in-hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class. As long as you abide by your character’s proficiencies, you’re not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign."
While druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and shields, they don't break apart if they do. They know how to wear metal armor and shields. Whether they do is only a matter of choice.
EDIT: PS. Druids who follow Mielikki in Forgotten Realms are allowed to wear metal armors according to Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:
Mielikki, who is famous for the number of druid/rangers who worship her, has more lenient spiritual oaths than most deities that druids worship in the Realms. Druids of Mielikki can use any of the standard armor or weapons that rangers normally use (all simple and martial weapons, all light and medium armor, and all shields) without violating their spiritual oaths.
Note that this is from 3.5, and thus this doesn't mean that worshiping Mielikki in 5e game would grant them more proficiencies (unless your DM said so). Note also, that deities are dependent of the campaign you play in. In a homebrew campaign there just might be someone similar to Mielikki. And even if your campaign didn't require a worship of a deity, there could be a similar philosophy that didn't see it as a problem.
odigity
2016-10-13, 05:42 PM
How much damage does Exploding do? Maybe my Druid can survive it, long rest in the armor, and go adventuring the next day in top shape...
(joke)
Sicarius Victis
2016-10-13, 11:03 PM
So, short version:
If you multiclass, do it into a Cha-based spellcasting class.
Willie the Duck
2016-10-14, 06:29 AM
So, short version:
If you multiclass, do it into a Cha-based spellcasting class.
They certainly do have both the attribute synergy as well as abilities which complement each other. That said, I'm still waiting for someone to make a comprehensive palabard guide to complement the sorcadin and pallock material out there.
PeteNutButter
2016-10-14, 08:33 AM
While druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and shields, they don't break apart if they do. They know how to wear metal armor and shields. Whether they do is only a matter of choice.
I read that sage advice as well, and didn't interpret it the same.
He said, "If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM."
In my interpretation that puts it squarely in the territory of DM permitted only, but not RAW. If you were allowed RAW, you wouldn't need to talk to your DM. You would just put on half plate like the barbarian in the party, no conversation needed. RAW it appears you need special permission. If you were to try and wear metal armor in AL on your druid you would definitely run into issues.
It's like Blade Singer. It says its elves only, but you can talk to your DM and he is fully capable of lifting this restriction.
I can mention that IF your DM lifts the restrictions, then it greatly improves the rating.
Naanomi
2016-10-14, 08:36 AM
So, short version:
If you multiclass, do it into a Cha-based spellcasting class.
Hey, that's not all it says! It also says 'maybe think about dipping fighter, cleric, or rogue' :smallwink:
Great guide in all seriousness
Arkhios
2016-10-14, 01:58 PM
I read that sage advice as well, and didn't interpret it the same.
He said, "If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM."
In my interpretation that puts it squarely in the territory of DM permitted only, but not RAW. If you were allowed RAW, you wouldn't need to talk to your DM. You would just put on half plate like the barbarian in the party, no conversation needed. RAW it appears you need special permission. If you were to try and wear metal armor in AL on your druid you would definitely run into issues.
When making your interpretation, note that will not ≠ can not. There's a difference. It is a matter of individual choice. The only issues it would bring would be along the lines that other druids would scoff at you, and likely wouldn't welcome you as one of them. Donning metal armor isn't as bad as teaching Druidic to a non-druid, however, so you wouldn't necessarily be lynched. It's basically just showing the finger at traditions.
Willie the Duck
2016-10-14, 02:25 PM
We've all heard the arguments. That's not the point. The Sage said, "talk to your DM." That's not clearly coming down one way or the other on RAW, but instead encouraging houseruling. I personally favor this (I do not believe in the value of RAW), but I know I'm in the minority.
Mitth'raw'nuruo
2016-10-15, 12:23 AM
First. Very impressive. Nice work.
Second.
What are you thoughts on A Monk /Ranger (2 or 4)/Fighter (1).
In other words, I am totally look forword to you doing a three class breakdown.
Gastronomie
2016-10-15, 04:49 AM
What are you thoughts on A Monk /Ranger (2 or 4)/Fighter (1). In other words, I am totally look forword to you doing a three class breakdown.Uh, so, you're looking forward to him creating a guide with 1,728 sections? Good luck with convincing him about that.
I think it'll be a better idea to ask him to create a section about dipping levels in the 12 classes. But whether he really will create that is totally up to him.
2D8HP
2016-10-15, 09:42 AM
I see that all the Gold are for combinations of CHA based spell casters, and that combo's of my favorite classes (Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue) rate Sky blue at best.
Which combo of Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue is most likely to survive a campaign?
How much damage does Exploding do? Maybe my Druid can survive it, long rest in the armor, and go adventuring the next day in top shape...
My thoughts went more along the lines of, can the rest of the party remotely place metal armor on the Druid?
Mage Hand?
:amused:
Mitth'raw'nuruo
2016-10-15, 11:22 AM
Uh, so, you're looking forward to him creating a guide with 1,728 sections? Good luck with convincing him about that.
I think it'll be a better idea to ask him to create a section about dipping levels in the 12 classes. But whether he really will create that is totally up to him.
Yes. I Am. He has created an outstanding guide, & made it clear, both with his reservation of four threads, and his subsequent posts he intents not to limit his continued labors to refinement & improvement, but expand his opus yet more.
His task is daunting, yet none should belittle him with their own benighted visions.
I'd like to include 3 classes, actually mentioned one or two during the guide, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. If I add colored breakpoints, it might demonstrate that many classes offer great benefits within the first 4 levels.
Naanomi
2016-10-15, 11:40 AM
We had a 'dipping' guide here but it was from pretty early in 5e; but we should probably redo it (as most 3+class multiclasses are actually just about dipping)
Arkhios
2016-10-15, 12:21 PM
His task is daunting, yet none should belittle him with their own benighted visions.
Belittling - the bane of progress.
PeteNutButter
2016-10-16, 01:03 PM
When making your interpretation, note that will not ≠ can not. There's a difference. It is a matter of individual choice. The only issues it would bring would be along the lines that other druids would scoff at you, and likely wouldn't welcome you as one of them. Donning metal armor isn't as bad as teaching Druidic to a non-druid, however, so you wouldn't necessarily be lynched. It's basically just showing the finger at traditions.
I am afraid that I have to make an assumption one way or the other on how a DM will rule it, as it greatly affects multiclassing. I will edit the Druid post to talk about this.
Regardless, Druid dips are going to be regularly outclasses by cleric dips for the vast majority of builds. Domain powers just add so much more.
djreynolds
2016-12-30, 05:00 AM
Excellent guide.
Somewhere I will point my players to in the future.
Fishyninja
2016-12-30, 06:43 AM
I will second this.
At first glance, everything looks great and all the breakpoints make sense.
Well done!
Again I second this, I am also happy as you have confirmed a few thoughs I have had for my Monk character when many people told me not to multiclass (with this character being my first attempt)! So thank you.
Ravinsild
2016-12-30, 10:12 AM
Why isn't this stickied somewhere? This is perfect for me, with my weird obsession with gish type characters...
Hakon
2016-12-30, 11:07 PM
pretty sure multi classing into paladin only gives access to medium armour, not heavy, could be wrong, don't have my source book with me, but i would be checking that.
Arkhios
2016-12-31, 01:50 AM
pretty sure multi classing into paladin only gives access to medium armour, not heavy, could be wrong, don't have my source book with me, but i would be checking that.
True. If you multiclass with a fighter or paladin from a class that doesn't have heavy armor proficiency, you only get up to medium armor proficiency.
Gnaeus
2017-01-01, 05:51 PM
As a mostly PF player and multiclassing fan who occasionally plays 5e and doesn't want to reinvent the wheel every game, I also loved this and hope it gets stickied.
BurgTurdler
2017-01-01, 07:15 PM
True. If you multiclass with a fighter or paladin from a class that doesn't have heavy armor proficiency, you only get up to medium armor proficiency.
I believe one level of cleric will give you heavy armor prof. with some of the domains.
Arkhios
2017-01-01, 07:27 PM
I believe one level of cleric will give you heavy armor prof. with some of the domains.
I believe I was only talking about fighters and paladins ;)
Fishyninja
2017-01-02, 11:22 AM
PetenutButter's Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
x
Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard
Barbarian
x
Barb/Bard
Barb/Cleric
Barb/Druid
Barb/Fighter
Barb/Monk
Barb/Paladin
Barb/Ranger
Barb/Rogue
Barb/Sorc
Barb/Warlock
Barb/Wizard
Bard
Bard/Barb
x
Bard/Cleric
Bard/Druid
Bard/Fighter
Bard/Monk
Bard/Paladin
Bard/Ranger
Bard/Rogue
Bard/Sorc
Bard/Warlock
Bard/Wizard
Cleric
Cleric/Barb
Cleric/Bard
x
Cleric/Druid
Cleric/Fighter
Cleric/Monk
Cleric/Paladin
Cleric/Ranger
Cleric/Rogue
Cleric/Sorc
Cleric/Warlock
Cleric/Wizard
Druid
Druid/Barb
Druid/Bard
Druid/Cleric
x
Druid/Fighter
Druid/Monk
Druid/Paladin
Druid/Ranger
Druid/Rogue
Druid/Sorc
Druid/Warlock
Druid/Wizard
Fighter
Fighter/Barb
Fighter/Bard
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Druid
x
Fighter/Monk
Fighter/Paladin
Fighter/Ranger
Fighter/Rogue
Fighter/Sorc
Fighter/Warlock
Fighter/Wizard
Monk
Monk/Barb
Monk/Bard
Monk/Cleric
Monk/Druid
Monk/Fighter
x
Monk/Paladin
Monk/Ranger
Monk/Rogue
Monk/Sorc
Monk/Warlock
Monk/Wizard
Paladin
Paladin/Barb
Paladin/Bard
Paladin/Cleric
Paladin/Druid
Paladin/Fighter
Paladin/Monk
x
Paladin/Ranger
Paladin/Rogue
Paladin/Sorc
Paladin/Warlock
Paladin/Wizard
Ranger
Ranger/Barb
Ranger/Bard
Ranger/Cleric
Ranger/Druid
Ranger/Fighter
Ranger/Monk
Ranger/Paladin
x
Ranger/Rogue
Ranger/Sorc
Ranger/Warlock
Ranger/Wizard
Rogue
Rogue/Barb
Rogue/Bard
Rogue/Cleric
Rogue/Druid
Rogue/Fighter
Rogue/Monk
Rogue/Paladin
Rogue/Ranger
x
Rogue/Sorc
Rogue/Warlock
Rogue/Wizard
Sorcerer
Sorc/Barb
Sorc/Bard
Sorc/Cleric
Sorc/Druid
Sorc/Fighter
Sorc/Monk
Sorc/Paladin
Sorc/Ranger
Sorc/Rogue
x
Sorc/Warlock
Sorc/Wizard
Warlock
Warlock/Barb
Warlock/Bard
Warlock/Cleric
Warlock/Druid
Warlock/Fighter
Warlock/Monk
Warlock/Paladin
Warlock/Ranger
Warlock/Rogue
Warlock/Sorc
x
Warlock/Wizard
Wizard
Wizard/Barb
Wizard/Bard
Wizard/Cleric
Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Fighter
Wizard/Monk
Wizard/Paladin
Wizard/Ranger
Wizard/Rogue
Wizard/Sorc
Wizard/Warlock
x
Gold You really can't go wrong here. These two just compliment each other so well.
Sky blue There are a lot of good class combinations here that can make for some solid builds.
Blue There is some clear synergy here, but not as much as Gold or Sky Blue. May take some optimization to ensure the multiclass adds to the build.
Black This is decent, but doesn't really make the class better at its core strengths or may be MAD
Purple You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.
Red The lack of synergy here is just offensive. It's MAD. I'd avoid it altogether.
Small edit suggestion......Swap these two spoilers around, it's nothing major, just makes it a little easier to read.
Ashuan21
2017-01-24, 10:05 AM
This is a wonderful guide and I wanted to refresh the world's attention to it!!
Then, I really hope you will find time to update this thread to take into account all the new options coming with UAs (which may slightly change some interactions between some classes).
A possible addition (not as overwhelming as studying the 3 classes breakdown) could be to point out some race/class interactions which are particularly strong, not simply because of a +2 where you need it, but for other abilities (A Sharpshooter Kobold? A Protector Aasimar Druid?).
Furthermore... I see little love for the Druid/Paladin, but I feel like smiting in Wildshape, with tons of total HPs, some beasts giving up to 3 Attacks (Giant Scorpion), other beasts so unlikely to represent a threat (imagine a cat smiting the **** ot of someone :biggrin: ) and full caster progression is a huuuuuge thing.
Bonus points for a Paladin(OathofConquest(UA))3/MoonDruidX, giving access to Armor of Agathys...
Moreover there is nothing to be MAD at regarding this build, you need Char 13, Str 13 and Wis 13. You can dump Int and accept a low Con and Dex, so you can actually boost that Wis up to 15 if you really want! No need for the ASIs too... I would go for variant Human and only rely on Feats, Sentinel, Warcaster and Lucky for example, we have plenty of space!!
At level 12 a Paladin2/Druid10 is capable of becoming an Earth Elemental, a huge tank now implemented with a ton of slots to smite and to cure itself; I see this as going more towards the SkyBlue (leave the gold for the Sorcadin) than the Black!!
They certainly do have both the attribute synergy as well as abilities which complement each other. That said, I'm still waiting for someone to make a comprehensive palabard guide to complement the sorcadin and pallock material out there.
Is there a good paladin/warlock guide you'd recommend? Gastronomie's Sorcadin guide is amazing, but I haven't seen anything even close to that on the pal/lock side.
Arkhios
2017-01-24, 12:09 PM
Is there a good paladin/warlock guide you'd recommend? Gastronomie's Sorcadin guide is amazing, but I haven't seen anything even close to that on the pal/lock side.
How difficult would it be, though?
I can see three different ways to build one:
1) Paladin 17-18/Warlock 2-3
Get the 2nd level spell slots for quaranteed smites 2/short rest, and all paladin spell levels, along with most paladin class features. Really tough build.
2) Paladin 11/Warlock 9
Up to 3rd level Paladin spells, and 5th level Warlock spells and spell slots 2/short rest.
Improved Divine Smite quarantees quite solid damage with weapons and 5th level spell slots more often is quite nice as well.
3) Paladin 2-3/Warlock 17-18
Pretty much the opposite of the first, focusing more on the spellcasting, with the addition to getting up to 9th level Mystic Arcanum.
Seriously, do you even need a guide for that?
How difficult would it be, though?
I can see three different ways to build one:
1) Paladin 17-18/Warlock 2-3
Get the 2nd level spell slots for quaranteed smites 2/short rest, and all paladin spell levels, along with most paladin class features. Really tough build.
2) Paladin 11/Warlock 9
Up to 3rd level Paladin spells, and 5th level Warlock spells and spell slots 2/short rest.
Improved Divine Smite quarantees quite solid damage with weapons and 5th level spell slots more often is quite nice as well.
3) Paladin 2-3/Warlock 17-18
Pretty much the opposite of the first, focusing more on the spellcasting, with the addition to getting up to 9th level Mystic Arcanum.
Seriously, do you even need a guide for that?
You could say the exact same thing for sorcadin. What about feats? Level progression? Playstyle/strategy? Invocation, pact and oath choices? Yes, you could figure all that out of course. But you could for sorcadin as well.
Basically, if people find paladin guides and warlock guides useful, a pal/lock guide will be just as useful if not more, given the complexity of the possible interactions between the two classes.
Ashuan21
2017-01-24, 03:19 PM
Warlock 3 Undying Light for Pact of the tome: Shillelagh and Radiant Soul, Oathbreaker 7 for Char to damage, Dueling fighting style, and Divine Favour; take Polearm master, grab a quarterstaff and run around with 3 attacks a turn dealing 3xChar(Shillelagh, Oathbreaker'sAura, RadiantSoul+DivineFavour) +2 (Fighting style) magical damage each... And we didn't even get to dice and smites!! :smallbiggrin:
Arkhios
2017-01-24, 03:34 PM
Warlock 3 Undying Light for Pact of the tome: Shillelagh and Radiant Soul, Oathbreaker 7 for Char to damage, Dueling fighting style, and Divine Favour; take Polearm master, grab a quarterstaff and run around with 3 attacks a turn dealing 3xChar(Shillelagh, Oathbreaker'sAura, RadiantSoul+DivineFavour) +2 (Fighting style) magical damage each... And we didn't even get to dice and smites!! :smallbiggrin:
And this, here, is a perfect example why the Undying Light Patron is considered over powered and broken, and why most people consider all other Unearthed Arcana material too strong or too fiddly to allow them in their games.
Plus there is the slight factor as to why in the world would any sensible DM allow such a build anyway.
Ashuan21
2017-01-24, 03:44 PM
And this, here, is a perfect example why the Undying Light Patron is considered over powered and broken, and why most people consider all other Unearthed Arcana material too strong or too fiddly to allow them in their games.
Plus there is the slight factor as to why in the world would any sensible DM allow such a build anyway.
I guess you are in the wrong thread then xD... anyway I agree about the silliness of Undying Light, and the writers were probably drunk when they wrote it.
If we remove Undying Light and substitute for Fiend we have a weaker build but a thematically interesting one!
Oathbreaker + Fiend clearly sold its soul to a Devil, and gained uber power from this.
Reosoul
2017-01-24, 04:32 PM
As a big fan of multi-classing, I'm really loving the work you put into this thread. Thanks a lot, Pete!
Quoxis
2017-01-25, 07:06 AM
Little addition to the Rogue/Barbarian (and possibly vice versa):
Two levels of barbarian grant "reckless attack", giving you advantage on every melee attack you do this round (limited on str attacks i think, but that's what you were describing anyway). Advantage can trigger your sneak attack, and (as opposed to your shield master bash build) you can still use your bonus action to either disengage or dash away (the latter is better if not limited to swashbucklers).
This is especially awesome if you go barbarian 5 or add 5/11 levels in fighter (which works off of str or dex, both of which you already have at this point) to get more attacks per round, [all of which can add the sneak attack bonus] (<- sneak attack only works once per turn, so this last part is completely wrong and will only stay here to showcase my failure.)
The flipside is that any attack you suffer from until your next turn has advantage, which is dangerous for a rogue.
Arkhios
2017-01-25, 07:13 AM
Little addition to the Rogue/Barbarian (and possibly vice versa):
Two levels of barbarian grant "reckless attack", giving you advantage on every melee attack you do this round (limited on str attacks i think, but that's what you were describing anyway). Advantage can trigger your sneak attack, and (as opposed to your shield master bash build) you can still use your bonus action to either disengage or dash away (the latter is better if not limited to swashbucklers).
This is especially awesome if you go barbarian 5 or add 5/11 levels in fighter (which works off of str or dex, both of which you already have at this point) to get more attacks per round, all of which can add the sneak attack bonus.
The flipside is that any attack you suffer from until your next turn has advantage, which is dangerous for a rogue.
Wrong. You can deal sneak attack damage only once per turn.
Quoxis
2017-01-25, 07:17 AM
pretty sure multi classing into paladin only gives access to medium armour, not heavy, could be wrong, don't have my source book with me, but i would be checking that.
The OP is just phrased incorrectly. "If you start as a paladin, then MC into [whatever other class], you get heavy armor proficiency" would be correct, and in most cases it's already explained like that.
Quoxis
2017-01-25, 07:20 AM
Wrong. You can deal sneak attack damage only once per turn.
Ouch. Should've read into it, completely forgot that little detail, most likely because pure rogues get only 1 attack anyway.
Will edit this immediately (though the initial idea stays true).
Thanks for pointing it out!
Arkhios
2017-01-25, 07:27 AM
Ouch. Should've read into it, completely forgot that little detail, most likely because pure rogues get only 1 attack anyway.
Will edit this immediately (though the initial idea stays true).
Thanks for pointing it out!
No problem. Wouldn't want to lead new players seeking for a multiclassing guide into believing incorrect facts. Or should I say "alternative facts", which seems to be a thing these days. :smalltongue:
More Attacks with advantage is still great thing to have. Your suggestion however isn't new or anything. I haven't read the OP in a while, but I'm actually surprised if this wasn't in there yet.
A barbarian / swashbuckler would benefit the most of this. With the "free disengage" and Cunning Action to Dash, coupled with uncanny dodge, such a character can still avoid serious amounts of damage, even with having attacks against him be at advantage. Alternatively, add in a few levels of monk if you can afford it stat-wise, and you can use Ki (and a bonus action) to negate that advantage against you!
Quoxis
2017-01-25, 11:37 AM
No problem. Wouldn't want to lead new players seeking for a multiclassing guide into believing incorrect facts. Or should I say "alternative facts", which seems to be a thing these days. :smalltongue:
More Attacks with advantage is still great thing to have. Your suggestion however isn't new or anything. I haven't read the OP in a while, but I'm actually surprised if this wasn't in there yet.
A barbarian / swashbuckler would benefit the most of this. With the "free disengage" and Cunning Action to Dash, coupled with uncanny dodge, such a character can still avoid serious amounts of damage, even with having attacks against him be at advantage. Alternatively, add in a few levels of monk if you can afford it stat-wise, and you can use Ki (and a bonus action) to negate that advantage against you!
Especially because this old piece of news wasn't mentioned i just had to intervene :D
OP doesn't state the connection between reckless and sneak attack, at least it didn't when i read it hours ago, just a shield bash barb/rogue.
The monk idea is great, but probably too MAD for this guide, as you need 13 points in 3 AS's and the fact that there are many overlaps between barbarian and monk.
Motorskills
2017-01-31, 07:56 PM
This is hugely useful, thank you OP.
Can I get an explanation of SAD and MAD please. I can kinda guess, but why risk it? :D
I'm not all that impressed by the fanlove for L20 build combos. I'm not saying they don't have value, but essentially it is just like any other L20 capstone. Good to know, and fun to theorycraft, but such builds will be unseen for 95+% of players.
The real knowledge value is at increments before that. Knowing when to dip (and when to dip back), what ASIs or Feats to take and when etc. (Obviously that would be another huge project).
Sicarius Victis
2017-02-01, 12:36 AM
Single Ability Dependence and Multiple Ability Dependence, respectively.
Also, I'd like to point out that Fire Draconic Sorcerer/Paladin combining GFB and Searing Smite has some amazing potential. Weapon+Str/Dex+Xd8+(Cha×2)+1d6 damage, for the cost of a single 1st-level spell slot, is too amazing to pass up.
Sans.
2017-03-02, 01:37 PM
Why are the Ranger colours missing?
Huntsman
2017-04-09, 08:57 AM
One of the mentioned benefits of a Sorc/Warlock or Warlock/Sorc seems to be quickening Eldritch Blast to fire twice the typical number of them at the cost of 2 SP. However since we're multi-classing, am I correct that the number of EB rays we'll get is based on the Warlock's level rather than the total character level?
If so, since we'll need the lionshare of our levels to be Sorc so we have enough SP to make this combo worthwhile, I feel like there's not really an edge here since eventually a single classed Warlock will have up to 4 EB rays per casting. Right around the time we have the levels to even pull off this trick a vanilla Warlock will be casting 2 blasts with a single EB casting without the need to use SPs.
What am I missing here?
Sans.
2017-04-09, 10:18 AM
One of the mentioned benefits of a Sorc/Warlock or Warlock/Sorc seems to be quickening Eldritch Blast to fire twice the typical number of them at the cost of 2 SP. However since we're multi-classing, am I correct that the number of EB rays we'll get is based on the Warlock's level rather than the total character level?
If so, since we'll need the lionshare of our levels to be Sorc so we have enough SP to make this combo worthwhile, I feel like there's not really an edge here since eventually a single classed Warlock will have up to 4 EB rays per casting. Right around the time we have the levels to even pull off this trick a vanilla Warlock will be casting 2 blasts with a single EB casting without the need to use SPs.
What am I missing here?
cantrips scale with character level, not class level. 8d10+40 damage, every turn. totally not overpowered at all in any way. in other news, wild shape isn't broken.
skaddix
2017-04-10, 01:45 AM
How difficult would it be, though?
I can see three different ways to build one:
1) Paladin 17-18/Warlock 2-3
Get the 2nd level spell slots for quaranteed smites 2/short rest, and all paladin spell levels, along with most paladin class features. Really tough build.
2) Paladin 11/Warlock 9
Up to 3rd level Paladin spells, and 5th level Warlock spells and spell slots 2/short rest.
Improved Divine Smite quarantees quite solid damage with weapons and 5th level spell slots more often is quite nice as well.
3) Paladin 2-3/Warlock 17-18
Pretty much the opposite of the first, focusing more on the spellcasting, with the addition to getting up to 9th level Mystic Arcanum.
Seriously, do you even need a guide for that?
1) I say the main benefit is Eldritch Blast seeing as noted above it scales with character level. The Paladin now has a spam Mable ranged option to fire off to hit runners or chargers while they wait for them to come into melee range. Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast being top notch options. Maybe Devil's Sight if you really need Dark Vision. But your a Paladin abusing Darkness is really going to screw your team as you will be in melee range and your teammates not being able to see anything wont make them happy. But I guess you can put it on a rock and toss it at the spellcasters.
2)I say this works out pretty similar to the Sorcadin version. Less Spellcasting Versatility but plenty of high grade slots and class features to enjoy.
3) I say pointless. Because Warlocks now get Pact Weapon Summons that can Eldritich Smite and I cant imagine you dipping paladin If you just want play blaster Warlock. Double smiting will quickly obliterate all your spell slots. Unless you really want the Channel Divinity. You be better off going down to Rogue for Cunning Action if 2 or if 3 starting with Fighter and going 3 into that or 1 into that for the Con Save, Armor and Weapon Proficiency, Fighting Style and 2 into Rogue for the aforementioned cunning action.
Which reminds me this debate can be reopened as noted above Eldritich Smite changes the equation.
On if a Sorcadin makes a better charisma Gish then the Sorlock. Key Comparisons would be
Sorcerer 17, Paladin 3
Sorcerer 17, Warlock 3
Sorcerer 14, Paladin 6
Sorcerer 14, Warlock 6
I suppose you can make the case for 5 but seems awkward if you ask me. Or 7 but that is more Paladin biased. This is accounting for the FS update. Since it lost Extra Attack. Sorcadin still holds the 18/2 advantage since Warlock cant smite until lvl 3.
Our old guide master was a big fan of the 14/6 split. I liked it as well but I am real sucker for Extra Attack and Find Steed (love that spell)
Anyway bears some thought.
Arkhios
2017-04-10, 02:15 AM
3) I say pointless. Because Warlocks now get Pact Weapon Summons that can Eldritich Smite and I cant imagine you dipping paladin If you just want play blaster Warlock. Double smiting will quickly obliterate all your spell slots. Unless you really want the Channel Divinity. You be better off going down to Rogue for Cunning Action if 2 or if 3 starting with Fighter and going 3 into that or 1 into that for the Con Save, Armor and Weapon Proficiency, Fighting Style and 2 into Rogue for the aforementioned cunning action.
I agree, 3) is really not worth it. IIRC, I didn't put more thought behind that post than maybe 5 minutes. Key point being that I didn't (still don't) see the point of making exhaustive build guides. I prefer learning by doing. If you get everything chewed ready for you on a platter, how will you learn to do it yourself? Or rather, why bother? My perspective is that it's better for the whole table that you learn the mechanics yourself than to just trust what others say, these online guides can be somewhat "deceptive". For example, some people still follow to the letter the Eldritch Knight Guide posted on the WotC boards when PHB was fresh from the oven, while it's largely observed as being misleading in its suggestions.
The bottomline being, I guess, is that not everything in the internet is 100℅ true, and most guides and their ratings are biased on personal opinions of their creators.
DeathEatsCurry
2017-04-12, 06:05 AM
I feel M/Wl deserves to be black, at least. On paper, M/Wl is already a decent multiclass. Both are classes that recover resources on short rests, and Hex is just Hunter's Mark with a better rider. Just be clear, I'm not advocating the Shadow Monk/Warlock Devil's Sight+Darkness+Shadow Step combo. I feel that's a lot of effort for very little pay-off, and is cooler than it is optimized. However, a few levels of Warlock still has a lot of goodies for a Monk. Hex, invocations of your choice, and the utility of any of the Pacts/cantrips at the cost of slightly slower Monk progression.
There is just one real issue: MAD. Still, giving up a bit of Con to bump Cha up to 13 isn't that bad, even if it's inferior to M/Ranger (The rider on Hex is good, but not that good). Something worth mentioning is that some DMs decide to forgo ability requirements for multiclass. I've considered this myself, primarily because it's a huge kick in the shins for Dex Paladins, while Fighter gets away with a ridiculous amount (Really, your 8 Strength Wizard is buying full plate?). Should your DM make this decision, M/Wl becomes pretty good.
Now, the UA Hexblade pact offers something beautiful: Your proficiency in damage on every hit against a target of your choice. This is Hex/Hunter's Mark, but it still scales with your Monk levels. It kicks in at level 1 or 2 iirc. That's an amazing damage bump for a Monk. At low levels, it's on par with Hex/Mark's average values, and only gets better from there. Mind you, should it get printed it might just change, but I feel it's worth keeping an eye on, given how popular the Hexblade concept is (making it likely it'll hit print).
Oh and you get Shield, on Warlock spell slots. That'll more than make up for lost hit points.
skaddix
2017-04-12, 01:33 PM
Well Monk/Warlock also gives the Monk a spammable ranged option which you don't get unless your a Sun Soul. It is MAD of course but if you roll for stats and hit the lotto go for it.
Maxilian
2017-04-12, 02:43 PM
Well Monk/Warlock also gives the Monk a spammable ranged option which you don't get unless your a Sun Soul. It is MAD of course but if you roll for stats and hit the lotto go for it.
Or also could be combined with the Mage Armor invocation, so you can drop WIS (Leave it at 13), so you can max DEX and CHA, also the Mage Armor does not count as armor, so you can still use all your Monk abilities. (To deal with the MAD part)
nmitchell2
2017-04-23, 02:56 AM
Or also could be combined with the Mage Armor invocation, so you can drop WIS (Leave it at 13), so you can max DEX and CHA, also the Mage Armor does not count as armor, so you can still use all your Monk abilities. (To deal with the MAD part)
I'd say this is viable, far from ideal though. Are there any Smite weapons that are also Monk weapons? That would be amazing.
skaddix
2017-04-23, 06:36 AM
I'd say this is viable, far from ideal though. Are there any Smite weapons that are also Monk weapons? That would be amazing.
You got short sword. Although I think many could convince their DM to let them be Iron Fist.
But its quality depends on the split.
And what level will you start/end your campaign at...I loathe to deviate too much for Mon their 18th level ability is absurd.
PeteNutButter
2017-04-23, 09:14 AM
This is a wonderful guide and I wanted to refresh the world's attention to it!!
Then, I really hope you will find time to update this thread to take into account all the new options coming with UAs (which may slightly change some interactions between some classes).
A possible addition (not as overwhelming as studying the 3 classes breakdown) could be to point out some race/class interactions which are particularly strong, not simply because of a +2 where you need it, but for other abilities (A Sharpshooter Kobold? A Protector Aasimar Druid?).
Furthermore... I see little love for the Druid/Paladin, but I feel like smiting in Wildshape, with tons of total HPs, some beasts giving up to 3 Attacks (Giant Scorpion), other beasts so unlikely to represent a threat (imagine a cat smiting the **** ot of someone :biggrin: ) and full caster progression is a huuuuuge thing.
Bonus points for a Paladin(OathofConquest(UA))3/MoonDruidX, giving access to Armor of Agathys...
Moreover there is nothing to be MAD at regarding this build, you need Char 13, Str 13 and Wis 13. You can dump Int and accept a low Con and Dex, so you can actually boost that Wis up to 15 if you really want! No need for the ASIs too... I would go for variant Human and only rely on Feats, Sentinel, Warcaster and Lucky for example, we have plenty of space!!
At level 12 a Paladin2/Druid10 is capable of becoming an Earth Elemental, a huge tank now implemented with a ton of slots to smite and to cure itself; I see this as going more towards the SkyBlue (leave the gold for the Sorcadin) than the Black!!
Thank you.
I stand by my not using UA content in this guide as it is very unbalanced and specifically says it is NOT balanced for multiclassing. I regularly laud it on these forums and happily break whatever content is released within the week.
I do believe I mention that I am not that familiar with druids as a whole, but I'd be willing to reconsider druid/paladin. As an avid paladin fan, I definitely want it to be good, but is the delayed progression of wild shape worth it? Can anyone else comment on this?
I feel M/Wl deserves to be black, at least. On paper, M/Wl is already a decent multiclass. Both are classes that recover resources on short rests, and Hex is just Hunter's Mark with a better rider. Just be clear, I'm not advocating the Shadow Monk/Warlock Devil's Sight+Darkness+Shadow Step combo. I feel that's a lot of effort for very little pay-off, and is cooler than it is optimized. However, a few levels of Warlock still has a lot of goodies for a Monk. Hex, invocations of your choice, and the utility of any of the Pacts/cantrips at the cost of slightly slower Monk progression.
There is just one real issue: MAD. Still, giving up a bit of Con to bump Cha up to 13 isn't that bad, even if it's inferior to M/Ranger (The rider on Hex is good, but not that good). Something worth mentioning is that some DMs decide to forgo ability requirements for multiclass. I've considered this myself, primarily because it's a huge kick in the shins for Dex Paladins, while Fighter gets away with a ridiculous amount (Really, your 8 Strength Wizard is buying full plate?). Should your DM make this decision, M/Wl becomes pretty good.
Now, the UA Hexblade pact offers something beautiful: Your proficiency in damage on every hit against a target of your choice. This is Hex/Hunter's Mark, but it still scales with your Monk levels. It kicks in at level 1 or 2 iirc. That's an amazing damage bump for a Monk. At low levels, it's on par with Hex/Mark's average values, and only gets better from there. Mind you, should it get printed it might just change, but I feel it's worth keeping an eye on, given how popular the Hexblade concept is (making it likely it'll hit print).
Oh and you get Shield, on Warlock spell slots. That'll more than make up for lost hit points.
As I mentioned above, I do not consider UA content for this guide as it is downright broken. Reducing Con on a melee character which already starts with a d8 hit die seems like suicide from an optimization standpoint. Overall the MC isn't horrible, but suffers from being weaker than most other options.
Little addition to the Rogue/Barbarian (and possibly vice versa):
Two levels of barbarian grant "reckless attack", giving you advantage on every melee attack you do this round (limited on str attacks i think, but that's what you were describing anyway). Advantage can trigger your sneak attack, and (as opposed to your shield master bash build) you can still use your bonus action to either disengage or dash away (the latter is better if not limited to swashbucklers).
This is especially awesome if you go barbarian 5 or add 5/11 levels in fighter (which works off of str or dex, both of which you already have at this point) to get more attacks per round, [all of which can add the sneak attack bonus] (<- sneak attack only works once per turn, so this last part is completely wrong and will only stay here to showcase my failure.)
The flipside is that any attack you suffer from until your next turn has advantage, which is dangerous for a rogue.
I've added a line or two regarding the strength of reckless attack in conjunction to sneak attack. Honestly, not sure why it wasn't there to start with. Thanks for your input.
Thanks everyone for your continued input. I just realized I hadn't been subscribed to this thread, so I just played catch-up. I look forward to more input and will update accordingly. Maybe later this year we can have an update for more official content. *fingers crossed*
I added a Terms/Definitions box, which only has SAD and MAD in it for now, since that was all I saw brought up.
-Made a few other minor edits.
-Added Tabaxi and Lizardfolk mentions for the non-monky monks section. Lizardfolk in particular are a solid choice for an armored monk.
ZorroGames
2017-04-24, 02:43 PM
Skimmed this and the thread it was spawned from where someone freaked at thread necromancy (yes, I read the appropriate rule. It was still a freak out response IMO.)
Totally interested in multiclassing but I just wanted to say something that people seem to want to slide over.
Besides your personal pleasure in a multi-classing there are IMNSHO two questions to ask your self:
1) In this campaign am I going to play up to and beyond the mid-teen to 20 level range? This affects if and how I want to multiclass.
2) More importantly, what does my multiclassing bring to this particular group of characters (teamwork) that it could benefit from?
Love the guide so far BTW. Thanks.
ZorroGames
2017-04-25, 08:02 AM
PeteNutButter, I have a whole list of "new to 5th" acronyms but the guide and some playing will probably, no definitely, overcome that. Finally found a use for 37 plus years of "govspeak/milspeak" experience. :smallsmile:
PeteNutButter
2017-04-25, 10:21 AM
Skimmed this and the thread it was spawned from where someone freaked at thread necromancy (yes, I read the appropriate rule. It was still a freak out response IMO.)
Totally interested in multiclassing but I just wanted to say something that people seem to want to slide over.
Besides your personal pleasure in a multi-classing there are IMNSHO two questions to ask your self:
1) In this campaign am I going to play up to and beyond the mid-teen to 20 level range? This affects if and how I want to multiclass.
2) More importantly, what does my multiclassing bring to this particular group of characters (teamwork) that it could benefit from?
Love the guide so far BTW. Thanks.
As I understand it, thread necro is ok for notable threads such as guides etc.
I generally multiclass early, accepting that most of my melee don't get extra attack until level 6. I have yet to have a single class character above level 5.
Your points are in line with my general optimization rules, which I have yet to post to this forum, but may now be motivated to do so...
ZorroGames
2017-05-21, 12:09 PM
As I understand it, thread necro is ok for notable threads such as guides etc.
I generally multiclass early, accepting that most of my melee don't get extra attack until level 6. I have yet to have a single class character above level 5.
Your points are in line with my general optimization rules, which I have yet to post to this forum, but may now be motivated to do so...
So did you post that general optimization guide? I would like very much to see it.
Not a huge complaint, but I'd probably rate Bard/Wizard as Black at least. A 2 level dip in Wizard provides a Bard with all the level 1 ritual spells (which if nothing else can let the PC swap out Identify and Detect Magic off their lists). For a class that's known for its versatility, getting all those spells in exchange for the awful level 20 Bard Ability is definitely worth it. If you go with Divination at Wiz 2, that's a huge Ability to add to a Bard's control.
Basically any 1st level abilities are better than Bard 20, but Wizard doesn't delay spell progression while providing lots of versatility. Divination is a really great Ability for a controller as well.
PeteNutButter
2017-05-29, 11:44 AM
So did you post that general optimization guide? I would like very much to see it.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525827-PeteNutButter-s-10-Rules-to-Character-Optimization&p=22041947#post22041947
Not a huge complaint, but I'd probably rate Bard/Wizard as Black at least. A 2 level dip in Wizard provides a Bard with all the level 1 ritual spells (which if nothing else can let the PC swap out Identify and Detect Magic off their lists). For a class that's known for its versatility, getting all those spells in exchange for the awful level 20 Bard Ability is definitely worth it. If you go with Divination at Wiz 2, that's a huge Ability to add to a Bard's control.
Basically any 1st level abilities are better than Bard 20, but Wizard doesn't delay spell progression while providing lots of versatility. Divination is a really great Ability for a controller as well.
I can see the use there, but it is niche. I'd stick with the tome lock if you were desperate for rituals. It's one more level and delays slots, but comes with its own short rest slots, a massive increase in offensive at-will power via eldritch blast, and other potential goodies.
While Portent is a good ability on any character, it sees no additional use on a character that would not typically have room for a 13 int. Wizard adds no proficiencies, is MAD and does basically nothing better than any other caster class addition to bard.
I can see the use there, but it is niche. I'd stick with the tome lock if you were desperate for rituals. It's one more level and delays slots, but comes with its own short rest slots, a massive increase in offensive at-will power via eldritch blast, and other potential goodies.
While Portent is a good ability on any character, it sees no additional use on a character that would not typically have room for a 13 int. Wizard adds no proficiencies, is MAD and does basically nothing better than any other caster class addition to bard.
I was trying to point out that Bard 19/Anything 1 is more optimal than Bard 20 (other than maybe Pally 1 if not starting Paladin for heavy armor), therefore they should be black at the least (with that 20th level of Bard being purple or red). Bard 20 only gives the 1 inspiration if out when Initiative is rolled, which is pretty bad as far as capstones go.
Wiz 1 provides 3 Cantrips (including SCAG BB or GFB), 6 spells known and the recovery of a 1st level slot on a short rest. That's a preTty good trade for Bard 20. The second level provides a school Ability (again I like Divination in a dip) and 2 more spells known (and 1 more prepared) in exchange for an ASI. And both levels continue the spell slot progression.
Again, not saying it's the best thing out there, but I disagree it's purple: Bard 19 and 20 don't even add any spells known. The net haul is worth the Int 13 (which on a skill monkey may already be present).
The dip is probably better for Lore than Valor, though perhaps Bladesinger or Abjurer would be better for Valor at the second level of Wiz.
Just a thought and thanks for the guide.
RickAllison
2017-05-29, 03:42 PM
I think a good part of the black rating for Bard/Wizard is that while Bard 19/Wizard 1 is certainly better than Bard 20, Bard 4/Wizard 1 is not necessarily as good as Bard 5. The wizard dip trades added versatility for always being behind in spells, ASIs, or features. A multiclass with a high rating should ideally be advantageous at each level rather than at the max.
I think a good part of the black rating for Bard/Wizard is that while Bard 19/Wizard 1 is certainly better than Bard 20, Bard 4/Wizard 1 is not necessarily as good as Bard 5. The wizard dip trades added versatility for always being behind in spells, ASIs, or features. A multiclass with a high rating should ideally be advantageous at each level rather than at the max.
Bard/Wizard is currently rated purple, not black, unless it changed...
Cutoff points are very important, and, depending on the campaign/character as group makeup, a lot of things can change. My point was going off of Pete's opening line of the multiclassing is compared to going to 20 in a class. Unless I miss read something, I was just pointing out that 20 Bard is the least optimal of the Bard options.
Side note, I like my Bard dips after Bard 10, as you get way to much at 10 to get them before then.
PeteNutButter
2017-05-30, 11:32 AM
I think a good part of the black rating for Bard/Wizard is that while Bard 19/Wizard 1 is certainly better than Bard 20, Bard 4/Wizard 1 is not necessarily as good as Bard 5. The wizard dip trades added versatility for always being behind in spells, ASIs, or features. A multiclass with a high rating should ideally be advantageous at each level rather than at the max.
^This
Bard/Wizard is currently rated purple, not black, unless it changed...
Cutoff points are very important, and, depending on the campaign/character as group makeup, a lot of things can change. My point was going off of Pete's opening line of the multiclassing is compared to going to 20 in a class. Unless I miss read something, I was just pointing out that 20 Bard is the least optimal of the Bard options.
Side note, I like my Bard dips after Bard 10, as you get way to much at 10 to get them before then.
While Bard 19/Wizard 1 is better than Bard 20, Bard 17/any-other-caster 3 is also likely better. Cleric gives domain goodies shields for lore bards and either medium or heavy armor. Sorcerer and warlock are SAD give metamagic or tome and amazing EB. Even druid would let you use shields.
Purple means:
Purple You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain. Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD.
That's three points 1) Forgoing too much? Check, at any level before 17 you are going behind a level on spells and gain some small low level utility. Due to the MADness playing through 10 or more levels of bard with a 13 int for what appears no apparent reason (until you eventually take those wizard levels) seems like it is definitely forgoing something. Con? Cha? 2) Niche Build? Check 3) MAD? Check
None of that means "don't do it." It just means you need to know what you're doing. I've personally played several MC combinations that I've rated purple, and the characters worked out well. It just takes work, and an inexperienced player could easily gimp their character with a purple combination.
At any rate if you noticed my optimization rules thread, as a whole I'm generally not all that concerned about level 20 builds. In my opinion, they make up so little of the gameplay that it isn't worth talking about. I point this out in the x/y or y/x section, saying that characters have to be played usually from levels 1 to 20.
Klorox
2017-05-31, 09:22 AM
Love this thread, thank you for all the hard work you put into it.
Finger6842
2017-06-08, 03:05 PM
Bard/Wizard may be a lot better than you think. While I don't advocate dipping at all, sometimes it's more about the circumstances and the party than it is about min maxing. I went 10 Bard for my second magical secrets and then planned to dip warrior for the bow bonus. Then the loot drop happened, a headband of intellect. The party wizard already had a max intellect, the warrior, barbarian and priest didn't need it. I didn't really need it either but then the advantages struck me (other than the skill monkey and save implications). In a party without a rogue I was the scout so the armor buff from warrior didn't interest me, plus I'm a dex build so taking the dex penalty didn't thrill me either. I could have gone lock for the synergy but now I have a 19 int, so lets see how wizard works. Spell slots still work great, the ritual spells cover a wide range of things you need for downtime. Multiple level 1 wizard spells turned out to be amazing in the utility field. As a skill monkey I get to do a ton of things most of which can be helped along by wizard spells. Due to the overlap between Bard and Wizard in the spell department I was able to take spells I wanted instead of just DPS stuff. If the goal is to make me a combat god I don't recommend it, but if the goal is to flesh out all the other RP events, then it's a strong combination. Maybe Bard 18 (for magical secrets #4), Wizard 1 (for ritual caster + a large spellbook), and Rogue 1 for the extra 2 Expertise would be good. Or Fighter 1 for the +2 to archery/defense if you are not stuck with being sneaky. I spent so much time doing rogue like things that I actually took the year to learn theives tools. The DM wasn't enthusiastic so there were a bunch of hoops to jump through, but again, remember that learning a skill that adds synergy is another viable way to choose what class to dip into. A dip into Warlock would provide a lot more DPS but a whole lot less capability overall.
As a side note, the specializations text does not say "at 14th level wizard you..." it says "at 14th level you..." which means to me if I'm a Transmuter (which I am) then I can become a master transmuter at character level x. Most DM's I suspect will not agree but there is at least 1 that see's it my way. With that said, if your DM subscribes to this interpretation then Wizard is the First Class every caster needs to dip into. It really won't do much for anyone who doesn't get spell slots another way.
Quoxis
2017-08-01, 12:07 PM
As a side note, the specializations text does not say "at 14th level wizard you..." it says "at 14th level you..." which means to me if I'm a Transmuter (which I am) then I can become a master transmuter at character level x. Most DM's I suspect will not agree but there is at least 1 that see's it my way. With that said, if your DM subscribes to this interpretation then Wizard is the First Class every caster needs to dip into. It really won't do much for anyone who doesn't get spell slots another way.
Minor thread necromancy, but meh, we're talking about wizards anyways:
Isn't there specified that class features only work with class levels, maybe in the multiclassing section or something? I vaguely remember having read something like that...
PeteNutButter
2017-08-01, 12:38 PM
Minor thread necromancy, but meh, we're talking about wizards anyways:
Isn't there specified that class features only work with class levels, maybe in the multiclassing section or something? I vaguely remember having read something like that...
This is correct. Class features that refer to level refer to class level in general. Cantrips are the only thing that scale with character level.
thereaper
2017-08-02, 04:04 AM
Is there any particular reason the Barbarian's danger sense isn't ever mentioned? Advantage on dexterity saves seems pretty useful to me, given that most characters aren't so good at those.
Quoxis
2017-08-02, 04:26 AM
Is there any particular reason the Barbarian's danger sense isn't ever mentioned? Advantage on dexterity saves seems pretty useful to me, given that most characters aren't so good at those.
Probably because it's not especially synergetic with anything, it's just nice to have (and that applies to pretty much every class feature ever).
PhantomSoul
2017-08-02, 07:22 AM
It helps Evasion and Shield Master apply their (maximal) benefits more often, but that's probably about it beyond boosting an already good save or helping to compensate for the save being bad. The unfortunate thing is that it's advantage, so it won't stack with sources of advantage (ex. Bladesong).
PeteNutButter
2017-08-02, 05:38 PM
Is there any particular reason the Barbarian's danger sense isn't ever mentioned? Advantage on dexterity saves seems pretty useful to me, given that most characters aren't so good at those.
Danger sense is a notable ability, but rarely the reason people take 2 or more levels in barbarian. It is more a nice bonus, if you plan to rage and/or reckless attack. If your character doesn't intend to rage or use reckless attack, it'd be tough to justify the 2 level dip.
thereaper
2017-08-05, 04:28 AM
I don't know. People use one of their precious ASIs to take Resilient. In a game going to 20, a 2 level dip for advantage on Dex saves seems about equivalent to me.
Then again, that's just me. YMMV.
ZorroGames
2017-08-10, 10:08 AM
BLUF: How much to dip?
My plan is to dip Cleric first. Either 4 levels get that ASI or 1 just for heavy armor and all simple weapons.
Note: Role play and party support rules over racial or statistical optimization.
So, AL gaming, Wizard dipping Life or Nature Cleric, Variant Human using Point Buy:
ST 13 using Heavy Armor Master for +1 ST to 14, with War Caster at first ASI.
CO 10
DE 10
IN 15+1=16
WI 15+1=16
CH 8
Following War Caster at 4th the ASIs will be +2 IN, Spell Sniper, then TBD.
lord4571
2017-08-31, 08:11 PM
i see a lot of X/warlock talk but what about warlock/x
mainly looking at Warlock/bard. im thinking of going to warlock 8 then go into bard a bit. stopping somewhere around 6. then going back into warlock to either finish it off or go a bit more into it until returning back to bard.
(ability scores: 10str 10dex 14con 12int 13wis 17cha)
what would you people do starting from a warlock class?
Quoxis
2017-09-01, 12:37 AM
i see a lot of X/warlock talk but what about warlock/x
mainly looking at Warlock/bard. im thinking of going to warlock 8 then go into bard a bit. stopping somewhere around 6. then going back into warlock to either finish it off or go a bit more into it until returning back to bard.
(ability scores: 10str 10dex 14con 12int 13wis 17cha)
what would you people do starting from a warlock class?
The problem i see with a high warlock mc is the lack of spell slots. Maybe that's just me because i dislike spamming the same cantrip as the main tactics for a full caster. At least bard has access to rapiers to mix it up (iirc).
Also: warlock doesn't give you spell slot progression, meaning that at level 20 your build has the slots and spells known of a 6th level bard (meaning 3 third, 3 second and 4 first level slots) and a 14th level warlock (meaning 3 fifth level slots and one 6th and 7th level "arcanum"). That doesn't seem bad, but it's a 20th level caster spamming cantrips and short rests to regain his medium level slots.
Edit: rereading it, my comment seems pretty harsh, which wasn't intended. MC as you like, i've been playing weird characters too and had a blast with lots of them (monkbarian ftw!), the above was just meant from an optimization point of view.
ZorroGames
2017-10-28, 08:56 AM
BLUF: How much to dip?
My plan is to dip Cleric first. Either 4 levels get that ASI or 1 just for heavy armor and all simple weapons.
Note: Role play and party support rules over racial or statistical optimization.
So, AL gaming, Wizard dipping Life or Nature Cleric, Variant Human using Point Buy:
ST 13 using Heavy Armor Master for +1 ST to 14, with War Caster at first ASI.
CO 10
DE 10
IN 15+1=16
WI 15+1=16
CH 8
Following War Caster at 4th the ASIs will be +2 IN, Spell Sniper, then TBD.
Damn hobby shop closing unexpectedly totally upset the apple cart, sigh.
Okay, getting a lot of friendly pressure to run “Your usual Mountain Dwarf” but as a MC Fighter/Wizard from a fellow player in a Tier 2 start game group at house.
Just to not be railroaded completely :smallwink: I designed a DE based Fighter as base. I know he is thinking plate armored Wizard...
ST 8+2=10
DE 15 for finesse and ranged weapons; multiclass
CO 14+2=16
IN 15 multiclass
WI 10
CH 8
Feat for level 4= +1 IN, +1 DE
Medium armor, need to check with DM what would be acceptable. When benefits from higher DE change to light armor?
Feats planned:
Level 8 +2 IN
Level 12 (likely) +2 DE
Level 16 (unlikely but possible) +2 IN
Level 19 (probably not) +2 DE
Better or worse than my original character?
Snowfalcon
2017-10-28, 02:11 PM
Have you considered an Arcane Cleric from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? That accomplishes much of what you're after here.
ZorroGames
2017-10-28, 09:03 PM
Have you considered an Arcane Cleric from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? That accomplishes much of what you're after here.
I would need a 13 WI to move from cleric to Wizard.
Snowfalcon
2017-10-28, 11:13 PM
I would need a 13 WI to move from cleric to Wizard.
Sorry, wasn't suggesting that. And I apologize if I missed something. Suggesting that rather than build a dwarf fighter and slide to wizard, build a dwarf cleric of the arcane. Unless you want the weapons and other fighter features shift INT to WIS as the arcane cleric gets arcane (wizard) spells and cantrips and casts them using WIS. Heavier armor comes with it and using a feat later could upgrade from medium to heavy.
Just a thought but it seems to satisfy much of what you're after just by swapping the two stats. Never really thought about it but dwarf is a good fit for that class.
ZorroGames
2017-10-29, 08:06 AM
Sorry, wasn't suggesting that. And I apologize if I missed something. Suggesting that rather than build a dwarf fighter and slide to wizard, build a dwarf cleric of the arcane. Unless you want the weapons and other fighter features shift INT to WIS as the arcane cleric gets arcane (wizard) spells and cantrips and casts them using WIS. Heavier armor comes with it and using a feat later could upgrade from medium to heavy.
Just a thought but it seems to satisfy much of what you're after just by swapping the two stats. Never really thought about it but dwarf is a good fit for that class.
Yeah, I was thinking playing a wizard for my usual single class Mountain Dwarf character originally “just because” I did it in OD&D homebrew but as the parties are averaging 7 or “only” 6 right now I have had a lot of thoughts about M C might be a good thing to try.
Other than humans in any shape or form (I have a VHuman Ranger in Chult but that gets raised eyebrows a lot) a Wizard is perhaps the rarest class to show up at games tables so far locally. Lots of Warlocks and Sorcerors at Tier 1 and just entered Tier 2, one game before FLGS closed, with my Mountain Dwarf Monk but I can’t remember another human other than (once) a Barbarian in any of our AL gaming.
Actually thought about Arcana Cleric but as responding to an idea a friend was extolling for our rebooted gaming. I am not sure what Tier (1 or 2) the DM is going to start at so now would be the time to play with MCing it seems.
ZorroGames
2017-10-29, 08:09 AM
BLUF: How much to dip?
My plan is to dip Cleric first. Either 4 levels get that ASI or 1 just for heavy armor and all simple weapons.
Note: Role play and party support rules over racial or statistical optimization.
So, AL gaming, Wizard dipping Life or Nature Cleric, Variant Human using Point Buy:
ST 13 using Heavy Armor Master for +1 ST to 14, with War Caster at first ASI.
CO 10
DE 10
IN 15+1=16
WI 15+1=16
CH 8
Following War Caster at 4th the ASIs will be +2 IN, Spell Sniper, then TBD.
Snowfalcon,
this was my original idea for a VHuman character before my friend made a pitch for using one of my Dwarf figures as inspiration for a Mountain Dwarf MC Wizard.
Mervold
2017-10-29, 07:07 PM
i see a lot of X/warlock talk but what about warlock/x
mainly looking at Warlock/bard. im thinking of going to warlock 8 then go into bard a bit. stopping somewhere around 6. then going back into warlock to either finish it off or go a bit more into it until returning back to bard.
(ability scores: 10str 10dex 14con 12int 13wis 17cha)
what would you people do starting from a warlock class?
I would put more on Dex instead of Wis.
Warlock 2 is great, 8 is ok, and I see no reason to stay after 12.
If you don't have healers in your party, take 1 Bard for Healing Word. Even if you do, Tasha's and Dissonant Whispers are good enough to justify a dip any time after W2.
My suggestion:
W2
B1
W6
B11
8wGremlin
2017-10-29, 07:24 PM
I like Warlock 3/X
It gives you level 2 lots, your pact boon, as well as 2 invocations.
If you have access to UA or XGE (hopefully)
Look at Hexblade, for armour and weapons keyed of CHA, and at the healing elixir spell.
I'd pair it with Arcane Trickster Rogue, Lore Bard or divine/favored soul Sorcerer.
Mervold
2017-10-29, 07:39 PM
Great guide, I couldn't agree more on the importance of ASIs. They are generally better than most class features, except for Extra Attack.
I also love how you don't care about level 20. Even if you reach it (most characters don't) it is only 5% of your play time.
What I miss, is the ratings of single classes. The color coding helps to decide if a Bard or Fighter multiclass helps more a Barbarian, but it gives no clue wether you should multiclass in the first place.
For example: Barb/Fighter is rated sky blue, but there are exactly two places where a BarbX/F1 is behind a single class barbarian in my opinion; B4/F1 and B19/F1. This would put the single class at blue.
A Moon druid has only one good reason not to take Monk1; if it already has Barb1. (I would rate these sky blue btw)
PeteNutButter
2017-10-29, 08:04 PM
Great guide, I couldn't agree more on the importance of ASIs. They are generally better than most class features, except for Extra Attack.
I also love how you don't care about level 20. Even if you reach it (most characters don't) it is only 5% of your play time.
What I miss, is the ratings of single classes. The color coding helps to decide if a Bard or Fighter multiclass helps more a Barbarian, but it gives no clue wether you should multiclass in the first place.
For example: Barb/Fighter is rated sky blue, but there are exactly two places where a BarbX/F1 is behind a single class barbarian in my opinion; B4/F1 and B19/F1. This would put the single class at blue.
A Moon druid has only one good reason not to take Monk1; if it already has Barb1. (I would rate these sky blue btw)
Thanks, I'm looking forward to updating it once Xanathar's comes out.
I'll look to play a druid next so I have more than just theory to rely on for them. Currently I'm hesitant to encourage MC for moon druid's as they suffer/benefit from spikes in effectiveness every few levels, similar to extra attack via access to new forms. It sucks to be behind a level or two for extra attack, and moon druid's get that same feeling every 2-3 levels. I may change them both to sky blue going forward.
Currently playing a monk, and working on updating the monk in this guide.
Pimplup
2017-12-01, 07:07 PM
I just made a character that I'll be using for a session coming up. Here's the stats:
18/13/18/8/14/8 (13 Dex, pump Str and Con)
Barbarian 9 / Rogue 7 / Fighter 4
(x / 5 / 4 at lower levels)
I think the synergy is awesome. Barbarian's reckless attack gives advantage for Sneak Attack, and a Champion fighter gets improved critical, which is especially good, since advantage further improves the critical rate and couples nicely with Sneak Attack (and Brutal Critical). The only drawback is that I'm limited to finesse weapons, so I'm using a rapier.
My character is a Dwarf with Path of the Battlerager, Inquisitive, Champion, and Shield Master feat. (Inquisitive/shield master give other options besides reckless attack. I chose these for RP purposes as well, and I'm sure a different combo would be more optomized than this one.)
I'd appreciate if someone would say what they thought about this and/or suggest some changes.
(This may not work for the above chart since it's triple-classing.)
Edit: Whoops! I'll start a new thread.
PeteNutButter
2017-12-01, 11:09 PM
I just made a character that I'll be using for a session coming up. Here's the stats:
18/13/18/8/14/8 (13 Dex, pump Str and Con)
Barbarian 9 / Rogue 7 / Fighter 4
(x / 5 / 4 at lower levels)
I think the synergy is awesome. Barbarian's reckless attack gives advantage for Sneak Attack, and a Champion fighter gets improved critical, which is especially good, since advantage further improves the critical rate and couples nicely with Sneak Attack (and Brutal Critical). The only drawback is that I'm limited to finesse weapons, so I'm using a rapier.
My character is a Dwarf with Path of the Battlerager, Inquisitive, Champion, and Shield Master feat. (Inquisitive/shield master give other options besides reckless attack.) I chose these for RP purposes as well, and I'm sure a different combo would be more optomized than this one.
I'd appreciate if someone would say what they thought about this and/or suggest some changes.
(This may not work for the above chart since it's triple-classing.)
It's probably best if you start a new thread to discuss specific character builds, so as not to crowd this one with posts regarding a specific build. The build looks fine, though I'd have more input if you started a new thread.:smallbiggrin:
Pimplup
2017-12-03, 02:09 PM
I'm going to argue that thanks to XGtE, Paladin/Warlock is now the best multiclass you can get.
Let's consider a level 4 Paladin 3 / Warlock 1 (Oath of Vengence / Pact of the Blade):
First off, this is completely SAD, since Pact of the Blade makes Charisma the weapon's ability modifier. What's really cool, though, is what happens when they fight a boss (or the strongest enemy that day). Thanks to the curse, damage rolls are boosted by their proficiency bonus and score a crit on 19-20. And if they use Vow of Enmity, they can gain advantage, which (with the curse) gives a 19% crit chance. And if they happen to crit, it not only doubles the weapon die (e.g. a d10 for the longsword), but it doubles Hunter's Mark, and they can add on a Double Divine Smite as well.
Once they level up to Paladin 5 (or Warlock 5 with Thirsting Blade), they get 2 chances to crit per turn, making the odds a little over 1 in 3.
Anyway, a Paladin—and I guess literally any Cha-based caster—would do extremely well with Warlock Pact of the Blade. Hopefully this gets incorporated into the chart. :smalltongue:
PeteNutButter
2017-12-03, 02:34 PM
I'm going to argue that thanks to XGtE, Paladin/Warlock is now the best multiclass you can get.
Let's consider a level 4 Paladin 3 / Warlock 1 (Oath of Vengence / Pact of the Blade):
First off, this is completely SAD, since Pact of the Blade makes Charisma the weapon's ability modifier. What's really cool, though, is what happens when they fight a boss (or the strongest enemy that day). Thanks to the curse, damage rolls are boosted by their proficiency bonus and score a crit on 19-20. And if they use Vow of Enmity, they can gain advantage, which (with the curse) gives a 19% crit chance. And if they happen to crit, it not only doubles the weapon die (e.g. a d10 for the longsword), but it doubles Hunter's Mark, and they can add on a Double Divine Smite as well.
Once they level up to Paladin 5 (or Warlock 5 with Thirsting Blade), they get 2 chances to crit per turn, making the odds a little over 1 in 3.
Anyway, a Paladin—and I guess literally any Cha-based caster—would do extremely well with Warlock Pact of the Blade. Hopefully this gets incorporated into the chart. :smalltongue:
I'm currently playing a paladin 6/warlock 2. It is incredibly powerful. Keep in mind what you are describing requires 3 bonus actions to set up. It's not often you have 3 bonus actions to attack the same foe. Usually by that point they are dead or near to it. To me the power of the SADness of the build is in the Aura of Protection.
I'm in the process of updating the guide, and have only gotten as far as cleric... give me some time...
Arkhios
2017-12-03, 03:06 PM
I'm going to argue that thanks to XGtE, Paladin/Warlock is now the best multiclass you can get.
Where have you been the last 3 years? I've been in the understanding that it's always been the best combination!
Other than that, a minor nitpick: Hexblade ≠ Pact of the Blade! :smalltongue:
Pimplup
2017-12-05, 04:24 AM
I retract my previous statement; Warlock/Monk is the most optimal multiclass ever.
Consider a level 3 Warlock 1/Monk 2 with Hexblade:
Thanks to bonus actions, they can use Hexblade's Curse and Hex in addition to attacking or whatever. By the time they make an attack on their third turn (and every turn afterward until they run out of ki points), Flurry of Blows lets them add 3d6 and 3x their proficiency bonus to their damage that turn. They could instead forgo one of them to hit almost as hard on the second turn.
At Warlock 1/Monk 5 with a Quarterstaff and +4 Dex, this would total to 2d8+2d6+16+4d6+12 (extra attack, unarmed strikes, Dex mod to damage, Hex bonus, and Hexblade's Curse bonus respectively), totaling to 58 damage on average. Of course, this starts on the third turn and assumes that every attack hits, but nevertheless it's still unbelievable.
To me this seems far too good to be true.
Chugger
2017-12-05, 06:25 AM
Petenutbutter, thanks very much for this great guide! Am really loving it. Very helpful. Thanks also for the hard work and the excellent art choices, too. They really spice it up nicely - really good pics.
PeteNutButter
2017-12-05, 12:30 PM
Petenutbutter, thanks very much for this great guide! Am really loving it. Very helpful. Thanks also for the hard work and the excellent art choices, too. They really spice it up nicely - really good pics.
Thanks, still working at it... almost done with fighter. I'll post again once it's fully updated.
Adding for Every Combination:
-Pictures
-Flavor Text in Italics that gives potential RP reasons (Yes, RP! *GASP*) and potential names for the MC
-Example Build
I retract my previous statement; Warlock/Monk is the most optimal multiclass ever.
Consider a level 3 Warlock 1/Monk 2 with Hexblade:
Thanks to bonus actions, they can use Hexblade's Curse and Hex in addition to attacking or whatever. By the time they make an attack on their third turn (and every turn afterward until they run out of ki points), Flurry of Blows lets them add 3d6 and 3x their proficiency bonus to their damage that turn. They could instead forgo one of them to hit almost as hard on the second turn.
At Warlock 1/Monk 5 with a Quarterstaff and +4 Dex, this would total to 2d8+2d6+16+4d6+12 (extra attack, unarmed strikes, Dex mod to damage, Hex bonus, and Hexblade's Curse bonus respectively), totaling to 58 damage on average. Of course, this starts on the third turn and assumes that every attack hits, but nevertheless it's still unbelievable.
To me this seems far too good to be true.
Very interesting!
I’m not super familiar with monks —I’m curious if there are other synergies as well, that this is adding on to? I’m aware shadow monks often dip warlock 2 for devil’s sight... but I wonder if anything else in XGE opens up new potential for monk/warlock synergiez (despite the MAD-ness of the combo).
One thing that occurs to me, is open hand’s ability to prone on hit would combo nicely with Elven Accuracy and the hexblade curse’s improved crit range... (and of course, already synergized with hexing dex)
effenhoog
2017-12-15, 10:31 AM
I just wanted to pop in and say that I really like and appreciate this guide, it has been very interesting and helpful to me
PeteNutButter
2017-12-15, 11:35 AM
I just wanted to pop in and say that I really like and appreciate this guide, it has been very interesting and helpful to me
Thanks, just 3 classes to go and I'll be finished with the updates...
Houndstooth
2017-12-29, 03:27 AM
First off, thank you so much for creating this. It has helped me so much.
Secondly, I had a question about your Monk/Barb build as a Tortle. I was wondering if you would either post here or send me a direct message and go into what you enjoyed about it so much? I am going to be playing a Tortle in the next game I play in, and this seems like it would be exactly what I am wanting. So, I was hoping to get some more information.
PeteNutButter
2017-12-29, 12:05 PM
The guide is finally fully updated, as I've effectively run out of character space!
Additions:
-132 pictures to inspire the multiclasses! (All credit to original artist.)
-132 potential names for what you might call every MC! Only some of them suck!
-An example build for nearly every MC! Several of them suck!
-RP multiclass justifications for several MC combinations!
-Fully incorprated Xanathar's content!
-Uncounted Typos!
-Wolverine, Raphael, Ryze, and Sean Connery!
I'll continue to update and adjust with any input from the community, but will have to adjust due to character space limits.
Ace of Trades
2017-12-30, 12:31 AM
Pete,
First off thanks a bunch for this thread. I've found it very interesting and helpful.
I would just like to pose the possibility that a Kensei Monk + Ranger could be quite strong. You point out that getting Hunter's Mark can be really strong for a character who gets multiple attacks but I'm not sure you give it enough credit. For a class that attacks a minimum of three times per round that's at least a 3d6 damage increase. Plus it's way stronger to take the two - weapon fighting style as it allows you to add your dex modifier to all of your bonus action unarmed strikes (which you typically cannot do). After only two levels in the ranger class your monk gains 1-2 more dex modifier additions on their bonus action (depending on if you use Flurry or not) and you gain 3 or 4d6 extra damage from Hunter's Mark. Would you still consider this to not be worth the 2 monk level loss? Assuming ideal scenario with Hunter's Mark and Flurry of Blows and 2 handed longsword, a level 7 character that has 5 levels in Kensei Monk and 2 levels in Ranger would deal 2d10 + 6d6 + 4*(Dex Mod) damage. That's an average of 32 + 4*(Dex mod) damage in one turn! Please let me know your thoughts, am I missing anything?
PeteNutButter
2017-12-30, 12:57 PM
Pete,
First off thanks a bunch for this thread. I've found it very interesting and helpful.
I would just like to pose the possibility that a Kensei Monk + Ranger could be quite strong. You point out that getting Hunter's Mark can be really strong for a character who gets multiple attacks but I'm not sure you give it enough credit. For a class that attacks a minimum of three times per round that's at least a 3d6 damage increase. Plus it's way stronger to take the two - weapon fighting style as it allows you to add your dex modifier to all of your bonus action unarmed strikes (which you typically cannot do). After only two levels in the ranger class your monk gains 1-2 more dex modifier additions on their bonus action (depending on if you use Flurry or not) and you gain 3 or 4d6 extra damage from Hunter's Mark. Would you still consider this to not be worth the 2 monk level loss? Assuming ideal scenario with Hunter's Mark and Flurry of Blows and 2 handed longsword, a level 7 character that has 5 levels in Kensei Monk and 2 levels in Ranger would deal 2d10 + 6d6 + 4*(Dex Mod) damage. That's an average of 32 + 4*(Dex mod) damage in one turn! Please let me know your thoughts, am I missing anything?
You are mistaken in thinking monks need TWF style to add their dex to unarmed strikes. Monks get that by default on all attacks, as it is not TWF.
I rate the monk/ranger as sky blue, one below best, mostly for the other reasons you’ve mentioned.
sambojin
2017-12-30, 06:14 PM
Kind of surprised that dipping Moon Druid is rated so low. It may not actually up your combat or casting abilities (although, it may be better for melee than anything some other classes get, and it's at least full caster slot progression), but Wildshape gives you a huge grab-bag of abilities, even at a low level.
Movement speed, yep. Unlimited spiderclimb, yep. Stealth (even for heavy armoured types if metal is allowed), yep. Super jumps, yep. Infiltration, yep. Vision types, yep. Trap removal (face smack HP damage traps, or boost a stat for saves), yep. Carrying capacity, yep. Escape tactics for more than one person (horse mode), yep. Even a burrow speed if you need it, yep.
Oh, and you can just use it to damage sponge a bit too. And you get some spells as well. All the good parts of the dip (wildshape) are twice per short rest, and since you're not using it for combat (mostly), you can use it pretty indiscriminately for anything you want.
Fighters want that sort of flexibility. So do Rogues. So do Rangers. It's a really front loaded class to dip into. If there was a spell that you could use multiple times a day as a lvl2 class ability that was called "Minor Polymorph" people would say it's broken. It'd be at least a lvl2 or lvl3 spell, but you get to cast it at least 4 times a day as a MC Druid if you want. And that's essentially all Wildshape is for other classes. A really flexible spell that can do stuff that they couldn't do before, which they can use a lot of times per day, but that comes with some other OK'ish spells too. A lvl2-3 spell, that you get free slots for. Which is really good, dip-wise.
They might seem like "niche" abilities, but there's a LOT of them. Crag Cat spell turning/nondetection, Female Steeder spiderclimb, jumping and stealth, Giant Badger burrow speed. All available for a bonus action, in combat or out, all hard to replicate as easily or reliably in other ways. It does depend on "what you've seen", but it's pretty easy to backstory in even the above and common stuff, and you're set. You won't get all that from two levels of most other dips.
So not exactly a red dip for most classes, even if it is a two level minimum, while some other classes are great as a one level dip. But getting all those gimmicks in two levels is great for many classes, especially ones that tend to MC around lvl7-12 anyway. And for casters, it's not exactly horrible anyway, considering 13Wis is all you'll ever need for your gained spells, you get a melee option that you didn't have before, it's still full caster progression, and you'll save yourself a few prepared spell slots because Wildshape is such a versatile "spell" to have anyway.
PeteNutButter
2017-12-30, 07:18 PM
Kind of surprised that dipping Moon Druid is rated so low. It may not actually up your combat or casting abilities (although, it may be better for melee than anything some other classes get, and it's at least full caster slot progression), but Wildshape gives you a huge grab-bag of abilities, even at a low level.
Movement speed, yep. Unlimited spiderclimb, yep. Stealth (even for heavy armoured types if metal is allowed), yep. Super jumps, yep. Infiltration, yep. Vision types, yep. Trap removal (face smack HP damage traps, or boost a stat for saves), yep. Carrying capacity, yep. Escape tactics for more than one person (horse mode), yep. Even a burrow speed if you need it, yep.
Oh, and you can just use it to damage sponge a bit too. And you get some spells as well. All the good parts of the dip (wildshape) are twice per short rest, and since you're not using it for combat (mostly), you can use it pretty indiscriminately for anything you want.
Fighters want that sort of flexibility. So do Rogues. So do Rangers. It's a really front loaded class to dip into. If there was a spell that you could use multiple times a day as a class ability that was called "Minor Polymorph" people would say it's broken. It'd be a lvl2 or lvl3 spell, and you get to cast it at least 4 times a day as a MC Druid if you want. And that's essentially all Wildshape is for other classes. A really flexible spell that can do stuff that they couldn't do before, which they can use a lot of times per day, but that comes with some other OK'ish spells too. A lvl2-3 spell, that you get free slots for. Which is really good, dip-wise.
Not exactly a red dip for most classes, even if it is a two level minimum, while some other classes are great as a one level dip. But getting all those gimmicks in two levels is great for many classes, especially ones that tend to MC around lvl7-12 anyway. And for casters, it's not exactly horrible anyway, considering 13Wis is all you'll ever need for your gained spells, you get a melee option that you didn't have before, it's still full caster progression, and you'll save yourself a few prepared spell slots because Wildshape is such a versatile "spell" to have anyway.
I only had it marked red for 1 class. That is fighter, and only under the assumption that said fighter is a str-fighter and metal armor would not be allowed. I don't value the moon druid dip too high, because I am also making the assumption that people follow the RAW disintegrate would kill a moon druid dipped PC at medium to high level. Some DMs might not use it, but its enough to scare an optimizer away, if it is used.
It's not bad, and if done right can be just fine. It adds versatility, but not much to core strengths. In my experience, by the time any typical PC would want to dip into it, the full casters often have enough mobility usually to help the party get out of exploration encounters. I could reevaluate. Several of them could possibly be rated black.
One of the players in my current party has a few levels in moon druid (mostly cleric). Every time he uses it in a fight, he just does so much less than if he'd stay in "dude" form. It's really an exploration perk only by tier 2.
2D8HP
2017-12-30, 10:19 PM
Lately I've been recomending your guide a lot @PeteNutButter.
Garresh
2018-01-01, 02:17 PM
I don't wanna be that guy, but a lot of the class combinations listed are way off. Like *waay* off. Even still, the sheer scope of this guide means errors are bound to crop up. Honestly this is is ab insanely good guide even if a few errors show here and there. I'm going to list everything off that I can and try to help out.
Monk Warlock despite being MAD as hell needs to be Sky Blue. The combination of Devil's Sight with a Shadow Monk is INSANE.
Barbarian Bard(either order) also needs to be Sky Blue. It's the best grappler build in existence. No I'm not joking. Advantage on strength checks, expertise on athletics, and then Cutting Words so if they roll high you force them back down. This build treats even the largest enemies like a small child. Better still, with magical secrets you can get spells such as Enlarge or Earthbind or Fly to allow you to grapple huge creatures or to make flying creatures able to be grappled.
Druid/Paladin needs to move up to Blue. You use any non-spell ability while wildshaped. This means if you go a bit deep with a 3 level dip you can Lay on Hands yourself in an emergency, and you can still Channel Divinity. It's generally best picked up later after you've peogressed more with Wild Shape, but it's good.
Druid/Rogue makes for a really good grapple build. Like really good. When making skill checks while wild shaped, you use YOUR proficiency bonus but the ANIMAL'S stats. So a level 3 character can grappled at +8, and it only goes up from there. You can dump Strength and still be one of the best grapplers.
Rogue/Barbarian is amazing with the Shield Master feat. Shove as a bonus action with Expertise and Advantage means sneak attacks on prone targets all day erry day. I refer to this as the "Freight Train" build.
While Rogue and Paladin are pretty MAD, it's worth noting that Smite can be used AFTER it is determined if an attack is a hit. Which means it can be saved exclusively for critical hits. For a Shield Master rogue which gets advantage all the time this is really good. Also rogues like Charisma anyways. As MAD as this is, this can be strong.
Sorc/Cleric should be sky blue just like wizard. Divine Souls who dip Cleric are the best buff characters in the game. Every round they're blessing or twinning greater invisibility. A single dip in Cleric makes a viable gish if you grab Warcaster. Just walk into melee, booming blade, then quicken Spirit Guardians. You need the armor proficiency to make this work sincr Divine Soul doesn't get armor or any AC bonuses. It doesn't even have to be a particular domain. Light domain means you get a bunch of warding flares. Oh and it counteracts the limited sorc spell selection but offloading all the low level cleric spells you want like Bless or Healing Word, so you have morr Sorc spell slots.
Sorc/Rogue is a social God. Expertise in Deception and Persuasion + Subtle Spell means you can charm, use illusions, enchantments, and all manner of tricks under the sun to win at any social situation. It could just be as simple as dropping a Subtle Enhance Ability to give yourself advantage on your already amazing charisma checks. And even if you're not interested in that the armor proficiency is nice for sorcerers who aren't draconic. Saving even a single slot freeing up Mage Armor is worth it.
Also, Druid Bard is better than you'd think. Moon Druids can somewhat dump physical stats to boost Charisma. And any non-spell features can be used in Wild Shape. So you can now use bardic inspiration by roaring.
Druid Warlock is worth a small dip for Armor of Agathys, and possibly Mage Armor. These make Moon Druids a lot more durable and dangerous. GOO can communicate telepathically removing the the one downside of wild shape. I know you mentioned most of this already, but the MADness problem is not nearly as bad for a Moon Druid.
Wizard/Warlock has insane Gish potential... sort of. See, Hexblade gives good armor proficiencies and weapon proficiency. Booming Blade can be used with Warcaster. Arcane Ward damage does NOT cause concentration checks to be required, because YOU aren't taking damage. The ward is. But you ARE being attacked, so it procs Armor of Agathys. So every time you cast Armor of Agathys you get your ward recharged by a decent amount as well. Between every fight you max out your ward using Armor of Shadows. So now you have this weird arcane caster with like 18 AC, who gets Booming Blade hits as opportunity attacks, but gets 2 extra HP bars. And whenever you attack him you take a bunch of retaliation damage via Aga. But also if you ignore him he's still the best controller class in the game. And if you try to attack him at range he just Shields it at 23 AC. Damned if you do damned if you don't. For comparison, a 7th level wizard/2nd level warlock will have an additional 20 hitpoints from Armor, on top of 19 hitpoints from Arcane Ward. Enemy has to do 39 damage before they even start to hit your real HP pool. And they're taking 20 backlash damage on every hit. The best part? You can pump Cha instead of Dex due to hexblade and still be decent in melee, while also potentially going deeper in warlock without MADness. A human variant who ends up 18 wiz/2 warlock can grab warcaster and resilient Con, and still end with 12 dex, 14 con, 20 int, and 18 cha. They can upcast Aga to like 5th level for 25 hp and an additional 41 hp. They can hellish rebuke ranged OR melee attacks so nobody wants to hit them. They're tankier than a barbarian. Their 41 hp ward recovers between fights. They have a bonus to counterspelling. And they're still an 18th level wizard with all the control that brings. And they have proficiency and advantage on concentration checks. Oh, and they can still grab Agonizing Blast so they get way better cantrip damage at the cost of -1 to their attack rolls. Did I mention you can Hellish Rebuke? 25+2d10 backlash damage on melee. Sorry for the rant. This is just an insanely good build nobody seems to know about.
PeteNutButter
2018-01-01, 03:49 PM
I don't wanna be that guy, but a lot of the class combinations listed are way off. Like *waay* off.
"That's just like, your opinion, man." If you go over again what the color definitions are, I think my color choices might make a little more sense to you. A niche build does not alone justify making a class sky blue.
Monk Warlock despite being MAD as hell needs to be Sky Blue. The combination of Devil's Sight with a Shadow Monk is INSANE.
I've had this discussion much earlier in the thread. Nothing makes it "INSANE." The reality is shadow monks are kind of weak without warlock, but devil's sight darkness on a warlock is just better than throwing monk levels on there. A full bladelock can do more DPR have streamlined progression and not be MAD. The monk warlock, is doing what a pure warlock can do, but is still not as good as the pure warlock. Despite all that you can't argue that it isn't a bit of a niche build (combining a specific subclass, with a specific stat array, with a specific invocation out of many options). That does not at all fall into the definition of Sky blue: "There are a lot of good class combinations here that can make for some solid builds." There is one niche build that can be decent, but has lots of flaws as well.
Barbarian Bard(either order) also needs to be Sky Blue. It's the best grappler build in existence. No I'm not joking. Advantage on strength checks, expertise on athletics, and then Cutting Words so if they roll high you force them back down. This build treats even the largest enemies like a small child. Better still, with magical secrets you can get spells such as Enlarge or Earthbind or Fly to allow you to grapple huge creatures or to make flying creatures able to be grappled.
Niche build. Perfectly fits into the definition of Purple: "You are forgoing too much in your core class, compared to what you can gain." Possible for some niche builds, but probably best avoided. Likely MAD. Doesn't really come online until you have extra attack and cutting words, but due to the MADness the uses of cutting words are extremely limited. Spells and rage don't mix. There is a lot of hurdles to overcome, making this a trap option for anyone who isn't already a good optimizer. The guide is intended to be useful for all levels of skill. Optimizers like you and myself, should recognize that Purple is not a death sentence, but a limitation to work around. I've made and played several Purple MC combinations to success, but an amateur combining those classes can disastrous.
Druid/Paladin needs to move up to Blue. You use any non-spell ability while wildshaped. This means if you go a bit deep with a 3 level dip you can Lay on Hands yourself in an emergency, and you can still Channel Divinity. It's generally best picked up later after you've progressed more with Wild Shape, but it's good.
You point out the problems with it in your own statement. "Best taken later." Moon druids are an odd beast (pun intended) where your progression in forms is so strong and needed to keep up that until level 10 you probably don't want to MC more than 1 level. Paladin takes 2 levels to come online really with smites. The third level is probably not worth it. By the time you hit level 11, you are forgoing level 6 spells for a dead level, and then smites a level later. It's certainly got potential, but I'm afraid the MADness if you had to play from level 1 might be not even remotely worth it. I code this as black (read decent), but if I ever actually see it in play could be convinced to make it blue. This is on the list of character concepts I'd like to try at some point.
Druid/Rogue makes for a really good grapple build. Like really good. When making skill checks while wild shaped, you use YOUR proficiency bonus but the ANIMAL'S stats. So a level 3 character can grappled at +8, and it only goes up from there. You can dump Strength and still be one of the best grapplers.
Sadly subject to DM approval. Per grapple you need a free hand. I've seen 2 separate AL DMs say essentially, "Bears ain't gots no hands." RAW they make good sense, but RAI it should probably work... Regardless sky blue is lots of good combinations. This is one good one. I have it at blue for the potentials, but nothing really crazy.
Rogue/Barbarian is amazing with the Shield Master feat. Shove as a bonus action with Expertise and Advantage means sneak attacks on prone targets all day erry day. I refer to this as the "Freight Train" build.
I rated these blue and sky blue. I agree, very strong combination. A bit of optimization required, and a bit of a one-trick pony aspect keeps them from being gold. Remember gold is: "You really can't go wrong here. These two just compliment each other so well." You can go wrong, and very often people do, by making these builds dex instead of str builds.
While Rogue and Paladin are pretty MAD, it's worth noting that Smite can be used AFTER it is determined if an attack is a hit. Which means it can be saved exclusively for critical hits. For a Shield Master rogue which gets advantage all the time this is really good. Also rogues like Charisma anyways. As MAD as this is, this can be strong.
I've seen this in play, Swashbuckler/paladin. Provided you have extra attack, the sneak attack can be a nice bonus for a rapier paladin. It's not bad. Solidly decent, per black ranking. It's lack of progression on slots, really hurts it in play. Smiting on crits never really works out in my experience. Even with advantage the crit smite only really helps if you manage to land it on a big foe that is still very high on hp. Wasted damage/overkill happens often.
Sorc/Cleric should be sky blue just like wizard. Divine Souls who dip Cleric are the best buff characters in the game. Every round they're blessing or twinning greater invisibility. A single dip in Cleric makes a viable gish if you grab Warcaster. Just walk into melee, booming blade, then quicken Spirit Guardians. You need the armor proficiency to make this work sincr Divine Soul doesn't get armor or any AC bonuses. It doesn't even have to be a particular domain. Light domain means you get a bunch of warding flares. Oh and it counteracts the limited sorc spell selection but offloading all the low level cleric spells you want like Bless or Healing Word, so you have morr Sorc spell slots.
There are too big draws to this, the spell list, and the armor. The armor is great on a sorcerer, but the spell list isn't as much help on a sorcerer, as they can just be a celestial if they want. The greater number of spells prepared/known is a bit more helpful on the sorcerer, but the wizard lacks access to the cleric spells entirely, making it a slightly higher value MC on the wizard. I had previously had this as sky blue, but downgraded it to blue with the release of the celestial sorcerer.
Sorc/Rogue is a social God. Expertise in Deception and Persuasion + Subtle Spell means you can charm, use illusions, enchantments, and all manner of tricks under the sun to win at any social situation. It could just be as simple as dropping a Subtle Enhance Ability to give yourself advantage on your already amazing charisma checks. And even if you're not interested in that the armor proficiency is nice for sorcerers who aren't draconic. Saving even a single slot freeing up Mage Armor is worth it.
Wouldn't a bard be better at that? High charisma already, full caster... A sorc/rogue doesn't get the same benefits of full casting progression the bard would give. In combat, the sneak attack dice would be likely wasted, as well.
Also, Druid Bard is better than you'd think. Moon Druids can somewhat dump physical stats to boost Charisma. And any non-spell features can be used in Wild Shape. So you can now use bardic inspiration by roaring.
Delaying moon druid forms for 1-2 inspirations a long rest seems like a trap option IMO.
Druid Warlock is worth a small dip for Armor of Agathys, and possibly Mage Armor. These make Moon Druids a lot more durable and dangerous. GOO can communicate telepathically removing the the one downside of wild shape. I know you mentioned most of this already, but the MADness problem is not nearly as bad for a Moon Druid.
Moon druids kind of just need to stay in moon druid. Their character will be much stronger at most levels if they do. Warlock doesn't add enough to your core strengths to make it worth while.
Wizard/Warlock has insane Gish potential... sort of. See, Hexblade gives good armor proficiencies and weapon proficiency. Booming Blade can be used with Warcaster. Arcane Ward damage does NOT cause concentration checks to be required, because YOU aren't taking damage. The ward is. But you ARE being attacked, so it procs Armor of Agathys. So every time you cast Armor of Agathys you get your ward recharged by a decent amount as well. Between every fight you max out your ward using Armor of Shadows. So now you have this weird arcane caster with like 18 AC, who gets Booming Blade hits as opportunity attacks, but gets 2 extra HP bars. And whenever you attack him you take a bunch of retaliation damage via Aga. But also if you ignore him he's still the best controller class in the game. And if you try to attack him at range he just Shields it at 23 AC. Damned if you do damned if you don't. For comparison, a 7th level wizard/2nd level warlock will have an additional 20 hitpoints from Armor, on top of 19 hitpoints from Arcane Ward. Enemy has to do 39 damage before they even start to hit your real HP pool. And they're taking 20 backlash damage on every hit. The best part? You can pump Cha instead of Dex due to hexblade and still be decent in melee, while also potentially going deeper in warlock without MADness. A human variant who ends up 18 wiz/2 warlock can grab warcaster and resilient Con, and still end with 12 dex, 14 con, 20 int, and 18 cha. They can upcast Aga to like 5th level for 25 hp and an additional 41 hp. They can hellish rebuke ranged OR melee attacks so nobody wants to hit them. They're tankier than a barbarian. Their 41 hp ward recovers between fights. They have a bonus to counterspelling. And they're still an 18th level wizard with all the control that brings. And they have proficiency and advantage on concentration checks. Oh, and they can still grab Agonizing Blast so they get way better cantrip damage at the cost of -1 to their attack rolls. Did I mention you can Hellish Rebuke? 25+2d10 backlash damage on melee. Sorry for the rant. This is just an insanely good build nobody seems to know about.
I'm fully aware of this build, but it doesn't really work that well in practice. You don't want to keep going in warlock, because then your slots and abjuration ward lag behind. It's MAD. Most foes will stop attacking you after one round (if they even attack your frosty looking self once), and just ignore you, leaving you as a bad wizard (read level 5 wizard that doesn't have fireball or fly or haste, etc.). I tried this build myself and was a bit disappointed with it. I was hoping it'd get better, but felt even more pointless by tier 2. Granted that was pre-hexblade, but still. YMMV, but regardless, it's definitely a VERY niche build, so it being Purple is well within the guidelines.
I appreciate the input, but I think if you reread the color guide section you might understand the justifications for various colors a bit more. Purple is just for niche combinations, doesn't mean that it is bad.
Garresh
2018-01-01, 04:34 PM
Fair. In the context of your rating system most of my criticisms were ill-founded. However, can you edit the descriptions to mention some of these at least? Since this is a cursory overview of multiclassing you should at least have a sentence in the description saying "This can be good for X". It allows people who are reading to have a jumping-off point to look into niche builds while still having an accurate rating for the combination in general.
However, there are a few points I would like to contest.
I will say I disagree very strongly on is Sorc/Cleric. Divine soul makes a cleric dip *better*, not worse. Because the cleric spell list encourages gishing while Divine Souls LOSE AC over a draconic sorc. And the limited sorc spell selection means offloading spells has a strong synergistic benefit. Even freeing up Mage Armor means a spell slot saved. In short, there is no reason that Sorc/Cleric should be rated lower than Wiz/Cleric. They should be the same.
Another is Sorc/Rogue. You're not going heavy in Rogue. Just one level for Expertise. A bard can do many things, but Subtle spell allows you to do things no other class can do. Given that it's only a 1 level dip, the sorcerer progression is very nearly identical to the bard. Additionally, the new rules for identifying spell casts in Xanathar's make it clear that any spell, even one as simple as Suggestion, is clearly visible to anyone who is watching the subject. No class has the ability to cast Suggestion without being noticed, except for the Sorcerer. All of the key social spells are on both the Bard and Sorcerer list, but every time a Bard casts a spell people know. A sorcerer can do so with impunity. Despite its reputation as the best party front man, Bard is completely outclassed by a Sorc/Rogue. While I agree it only applies to one particular role, the addition of light armor proficiency helps any non-draconic sorcerer nicely. A one level dip to become the absolute best in a given role is extremely valuable.
On Wiz/Lock, I find that 2 levels is enough. The goal isn't necessarily to be the best tank ever. It's to put your enemies in a double bind. Consider, dipping Cleric is very highly rated. Why? because of armor proficiences, and a few decent 1st level spells. Dipping 2 levels, while more costly, guarantees that you are now the most durable character in the party, and nobody wants to attack you. Ever. You don't have to gish into melee. You can just put 18 levels into wizard. Being a God Wizard who effectively cannot be attacked is an insane power spike, even if it costs you a bit of casting. Likewise, the argument of MAD is fundamentally flawed. If you do not wish to pursue the gish route, you put 13 into cha. The same minimum requirement to multiclass cleric. If it wasn't for hexblade I would agree this is purple. But hexblade moves this solidly up to viable. I would say outside of this particular build it is NOT the same power as Cleric, but it is viable, and no longer a situational dip if you have interest in pursuing it. And even if it does put points into Cha over something else, typically your second stat as a wizard is Dex for AC. Medium Armor means you cap out at 2. The dip means you don't need to put points in Dex or Con, because your AC caps at 14 dex, and you no longer need Con since you have so much bonus HP. So uh...where else are you going to put those points?
sambojin
2018-01-01, 06:44 PM
I guess you're right about a Moon Druid dip in the context of your rating system. Great guide by-the-way.
Much depends on your adventure and your DM. If your encounters tend to start with "You are now in combat, roll for initiative", it's much weaker. If your combats often give you a round of "prep time", it's far stronger, depending on location.
Using an action to WS into a female steeder, jumping onto a building roof, bonus action un-WSing, and saying "Hi! Drop your weapons! " as a BM shooter can be great as an encounter "setter-upper". You're now pretty safe against everything melee orientated without a fly/climb speed. And with your grab-bag of utilities, scouting isn't a huge problem to get that initial round. You could even Action Surge/BM dice out a round of attacks if you really wanted to (but it's better to do that next round).
In a dungeon crawl, not so much. Though 120' darkvision still ain't bad.
It gives a heap of versatility, and lets you "free tank" a fair few hits (saving some spell slots that would normally be needed to heal you), but I'll agree that it's mostly an out-of-combat thing. Depends on your campaign. If movement, "puzzles", scouting and abilities are more regular than just straight up close-ranged combat in your campaign, it goes up a notch for any class. Otherwise, as you said, it's often just an exploration ability with some side gimmicks. Not to say they're not useful, and they probably will save your party lots of problems, but not straight up powerful like some other dips. Rounds out some characters really well, but fairly campaign/DM dependant too.
If it always ends in killing everything really fast, then being able to move quickly, stealthing a bit, vision types, and jumping/climbing probably isn't that good. It's still going to be useful several times a play-session, but so's just Hex'ing stuff (even out of combat for ability disadvantage, with no intention of ever chopping them up afterwards).
I would wager that your cleric friend did the right thing though. If WS was what he did for an encounter or two a day (IE, not completely sucking at melee, but not being great at it, yet still being a free bag of HP), he freed up a tonne of spell slots for later encounters. Or for healing/flexibilty/exploration/utility. Saving even a few slots a day is one of the big plus points of the dip. It feels weak in that one encounter, but it made you better "overall". And your entire party, too.
It's also a very useful "oh crap" button, which is why I probably think it's better than it is (+30-45'ish HP and good movement is a nice little "get out of death, free" card, even if you can only pop it out on your turn as a bonus or normal action. So not as good as a reaction button, but not bad. You can do it a lot too). Couple it with Absorb Elements off your actual druid spell list, and it gets pretty promising. Even at its most basic, you get two "oh crap!" buttons for the dip, three times each a day. Plus a fair bit of other stuff too.
((Just for funsies: Depending on your DM's reading of waiting through the initiative order as a conditional reaction, you might be able to HP soak some stuff on a "wait until they start to cast a spell and wildshape into something, rather unfairly, just for free HP. Otherwise, act normally, before they do anything else, immediately". There's lots in the dip :)
Rocks from ceilings abound....
))
((The three Absorb Elements are probably still worth it for a STR Battlemaster each day for the dip, in combat, on top of all the other versatility the dip provides. It takes about a minute to get out of armour, so you can still wildshape, even RAW. Just carry and merge it. Turns it into a 1 minute + 1 bonus action "spell", but it's a very good spell to have that many times a day. It removes a combat button, but it still gives plenty of good stuff.))
PeteNutButter
2018-01-03, 05:14 PM
...
((The three Absorb Elements are probably still worth it for a STR Battlemaster each day for the dip, in combat, on top of all the other versatility the dip provides. It takes about a minute to get out of armour, so you can still wildshape, even RAW. Just carry and merge it. Turns it into a 1 minute + 1 bonus action "spell", but it's a very good spell to have that many times a day. It removes a combat button, but it still gives plenty of good stuff.))
The reason druid is a crap dip for str fighters is the armor restriction. The official sage advice compendium says druids don't wear metal armor. Unlike monks, no where does it specify what abilities do and do not shut off when the wrong things are put on. It's the kind of uncertainty that makes it bad to white room theorize around. If your particular DM says it's cool if you wear armor, then the dip is probably on equal footing with a cleric dip, potentially even a bit better.
Personally, I always presume if a ruling is involved with my PC, then the DM will rule against me. It's a lot easier to theorycraft without unknowns. So I just write these things off.
2D8HP
2018-01-03, 11:02 PM
Druid/Rogue makes for a really good grapple build. Like really good...
Rogue/Barbarian is amazing with the Shield Master feat...
While Rogue and Paladin are pretty MAD, it's worth noting that Smite can be used AFTER it is determined if an attack is a hit. Which means it can be saved exclusively for critical hits. For a Shield Master rogue which gets advantage all the time this is really good. Also rogues like Charisma anyways. As MAD as this is, this can be strong....
Sorc/Rogue is a social God.....
:confused:
I'm trying to discern a pattern to those build suggestions, but I just can't quite put my finger on it....
Adding levels of Rogue = AWESOME!
:smallwink:
PeteNutButter
2018-01-04, 01:38 AM
.
:confused:
I'm trying to discern a pattern to those build suggestions, but I just can't quite put my finger on it....
Adding levels of Rogue = AWESOME!
:smallwink:
Hahaha If it were me, it'd probably be all Paladin MCs... Everyone has a favorite class.
Lately I've been recomending your guide a lot @PeteNutButter.
Cheers!:smallbiggrin:
Garresh
2018-01-04, 02:17 AM
.
:confused:
I'm trying to discern a pattern to those build suggestions, but I just can't quite put my finger on it....
Adding levels of Rogue = AWESOME!
:smallwink:
I have a sneaking suspicion but it's hiding in plain sight. :smallbiggrin:
In all seriousness, I can't think of a single class or build that can't benefit from a 1 level rogue dip. Not one.
PeteNutButter
2018-01-04, 12:19 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion but it's hiding in plain sight. :smallbiggrin:
In all seriousness, I can't think of a single class or build that can't benefit from a 1 level rogue dip. Not one.
How about anyone with a dex of 12 or less?:smalltongue:
See that's the crux of MC optimization. Everyone could benefit from a dip in anything, but you have to take opportunity cost into the equation.
Clearly a wizard 4/rogue 1 is better than a wizard 4, but is it better than a wizard 5? Certainly not.
The question can't be, "Does this class help my build?" It has to be, "Does this class help my build more than other classes or staying in my single class?"
This is why versatility enhancing options are rated relatively low in this guide, as they just don't help as much as things that make you better at what you are doing. Specialization is the name of the game for an optimized party.
To put it in a common phrase, an optimized MC PC is greater than the sum of its parts. It's not, "Well I'm a level 2 wizard and druid but I'm also a ranger." It's "I can use my cha to attack from hexblade and since I'm a paladin 6+ I also add that to my saves, and I can smite on short rest...." or "I can use my warlock slots to give me sorcery points which I can the convert into more spell slots." Or "I get an extra attack on round one from Gloom Stalker, and Assassin gives me advantage if I go first further boosted by my wis bonus to initiative." You get the idea. Greater than the sum of its parts.
ZorroGames
2018-01-04, 01:02 PM
Exactly as PeteNutButter said.
Gold should be something absolutely awesome and sky blue something you choose to not take advantage of intentionally.
Gardakan
2018-01-04, 01:38 PM
Hey ! Superb work brother, I must admit it was quite the read and I enjoyed it.
I'm surprised by much of your conclusions, but I'm not against them at all.
The paladin being so high was something I've never really felt, but it does speak when I gave it a second look. The paladin is always a bit upper then the power level of the average due to the strong nature of the sacred bond that ties him.
I would advocate for a unseen one that is Cleric/Sorcerer (Divine Soul).
''If just looking for the spells, its probably better off being a Divine Soul, but even the Divine Soul can gain benefit from a one level dip in Life Cleric.''
You were right. I theorycrafted a lot around the concept and the equation was simple. The first level of Life Cleric opens 5 spells in level 1... and you get enough spells to fullfill a nice role that is quite covering the debuff/heal part of the game.
I'd like to thank you for the comment you made, I gave it a thorough look at it's powerful. You can bring back people from the grave, Animate Dead at level 3 (thanks Cleric), Twin Haste, Counterspell. There are powerful options from access to the cleric, and the pseudo-luck with the 2d4 makes it even better as a caster (saving throws matters). I'm not looking more then the level 6 to achieve Haste + Revivify and bring Counterspell at 7.
Having access to Sanctuary to protect the concentration-buff while being tanky is actually efficient and far easy to enjoy.
Guiding Bolt Twinned turns out to be quite damaging early on (2 x 4d6 potential is 4 odds of greatsword)
The one level of cleric brings in (with 14 Wisdom) : Bless, Cure Wounds + Healing Word, Sanctuary, Comprehend Languages(or utility spell).
You really want Sorcerer for powerful spells at level 3+, while the Cleric has the insane early game power that you can harness to make you a support/healer type character that eases game. You can even take Misty Step if you feel the need.
Thanks for the whole read brother again, you delighted about 2 hours of my spare time. I'm amazed the theorycrafting possibility you opened to my mind.
PeteNutButter
2018-01-04, 02:12 PM
Hey ! Superb work brother, I must admit it was quite the read and I enjoyed it.
I'm surprised by much of your conclusions, but I'm not against them at all.
The paladin being so high was something I've never really felt, but it does speak when I gave it a second look. The paladin is always a bit upper then the power level of the average due to the strong nature of the sacred bond that ties him.
I would advocate for a unseen one that is Cleric/Sorcerer (Divine Soul).
''If just looking for the spells, its probably better off being a Divine Soul, but even the Divine Soul can gain benefit from a one level dip in Life Cleric.''
You were right. I theorycrafted a lot around the concept and the equation was simple. The first level of Life Cleric opens 5 spells in level 1... and you get enough spells to fullfill a nice role that is quite covering the debuff/heal part of the game.
I'd like to thank you for the comment you made, I gave it a thorough look at it's powerful. You can bring back people from the grave, Animate Dead at level 3 (thanks Cleric), Twin Haste, Counterspell. There are powerful options from access to the cleric, and the pseudo-luck with the 2d4 makes it even better as a caster (saving throws matters). I'm not looking more then the level 6 to achieve Haste + Revivify and bring Counterspell at 7.
Having access to Sanctuary to protect the concentration-buff while being tanky is actually efficient and far easy to enjoy.
Guiding Bolt Twinned turns out to be quite damaging early on (2 x 4d6 potential is 4 odds of greatsword)
The one level of cleric brings in (with 14 Wisdom) : Bless, Cure Wounds + Healing Word, Sanctuary, Comprehend Languages(or utility spell).
You really want Sorcerer for powerful spells at level 3+, while the Cleric has the insane early game power that you can harness to make you a support/healer type character that eases game. You can even take Misty Step if you feel the need.
Thanks for the whole read brother again, you delighted about 2 hours of my spare time. I'm amazed the theorycrafting possibility you opened to my mind.
I'm glad I could help. I'll continue to make minor updates, editing out things so I can make more room for more important ones. I never thought going into this that I'd need more than 200,000 characters, yet alas I do.
Once I decided to include example builds, I quickly realized space was becoming an issue. I also realized the better combinations were so easy to come up with good builds that it was clear they deserved their better ratings, while the weak combinations had struggles to justify their existence. The whole exercise became a bit of an incidental verification of my rating system. I changed a few of them, as I tried to theorycraft every combination. It was a lot of fun, and I've stepped away from it with probably a dozen more character ideas that I want to play now...
ZorroGames
2018-01-04, 03:35 PM
Since I am still trying to learn the classes/races (Mountain Dwarf!) I most often want to play - Fighter, Cleric, Ranger, Wizard - I have just begun to consider the MC opportunities.
When I do I will use this guide as a... well, guide... for my MC characters.
Thank you for all your work and education for me.
Zarohk
2018-01-09, 03:47 PM
Overall this is an excellent multiclassing guide, there's just one piece of Xanathar's content I wanted to mention that is worth considering, beyond the new subclasses themselves. There's a new spell called Shadow Blade, 2nd level Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard spell that creates a melee weapon (2d8 blade) with finesse that you are automatically proficient in for a minute. Perhaps at higher levels it's less useful, but at lower levels it gives a significant damage increase to combination any melee/caster combo, especially ones with extra attack, and can use it as the weapon for SCAG cantrips.
This is all to say, do you think that it makes taking a few levels in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard better for the Ranger, or is this an example of a niche build?
Arkhios
2018-01-09, 03:54 PM
Overall this is an excellent multiclassing guide, there's just one piece of Xanathar's content I wanted to mention that is worth considering, beyond the new subclasses themselves. There's a new spell called Shadow Blade, 2nd level Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard spell that creates a melee weapon (2d8 blade) with finesse that you are automatically proficient in for a minute. Perhaps at higher levels it's less useful, but at lower levels it gives a significant damage increase to combination any melee/caster combo, especially ones with extra attack, and can use it as the weapon for SCAG cantrips.
This is all to say, do you think that it makes taking a few levels in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard better for the Ranger, or is this an example of a niche build?
I think it should be noted, that anyone can have only up to 3 x 2nd-level spell slots (barring class features re-/generating slots).
It has a rather big opportunity cost, and I'd lean towards calling it a niche build if focused on (a sorcerer could pull this build off with relative ease if it was their gimmick to burn higher level slots to be able to cast this spell more often, but that only makes it more niche)
Gardakan
2018-01-09, 08:34 PM
I'm glad I could help. I'll continue to make minor updates, editing out things so I can make more room for more important ones. I never thought going into this that I'd need more than 200,000 characters, yet alas I do.
Once I decided to include example builds, I quickly realized space was becoming an issue. I also realized the better combinations were so easy to come up with good builds that it was clear they deserved their better ratings, while the weak combinations had struggles to justify their existence. The whole exercise became a bit of an incidental verification of my rating system. I changed a few of them, as I tried to theorycraft every combination. It was a lot of fun, and I've stepped away from it with probably a dozen more character ideas that I want to play now...
You did an insane job. Props to you. This guide is quite good and some of the players I've introduced to a new campaign are using it thoroughly to plan their characters progression.
PeteNutButter
2018-01-09, 11:09 PM
Overall this is an excellent multiclassing guide, there's just one piece of Xanathar's content I wanted to mention that is worth considering, beyond the new subclasses themselves. There's a new spell called Shadow Blade, 2nd level Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard spell that creates a melee weapon (2d8 blade) with finesse that you are automatically proficient in for a minute. Perhaps at higher levels it's less useful, but at lower levels it gives a significant damage increase to combination any melee/caster combo, especially ones with extra attack, and can use it as the weapon for SCAG cantrips.
This is all to say, do you think that it makes taking a few levels in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard better for the Ranger, or is this an example of a niche build?
I think it should be noted, that anyone can have only up to 3 x 2nd-level spell slots (barring class features re-/generating slots).
It has a rather big opportunity cost, and I'd lean towards calling it a niche build if focused on (a sorcerer could pull this build off with relative ease if it was their gimmick to burn higher level slots to be able to cast this spell more often, but that only makes it more niche)
Arkhios (Incidentally, how the hell do you pronounce that?) makes good points. The MADness prevents me from considering arcane casters a really good dip for rangers. If it were a cleric or druid spell then you'd be in business. As for rogues and fighters, dipping arcane casters is already viable, so this just becomes candy a few times a day. Guess what martial class is a half caster and shares a core stat with 2 out of 3 of the classes that get shadow blade... f*cking paladins. Part of me really wishes they'd give wisdom gishes more love, but at least Xanathar is a step in the right direction for rangers. Although, I'd still probably never take level 6 in ranger. It might as well just say, "gain 8 hp, and don't open this book again until you hit level 7." If I could take one feature from the revised ranger and make it core it'd be that favored enemy actually does something. It's such a wasted feature that can be so cool and rewarding to the player when it comes up, but basically does nothing as is.
You did an insane job. Props to you. This guide is quite good and some of the players I've introduced to a new campaign are using it thoroughly to plan their characters progression.
Thanks. I'm always happy to help.
Beelzebubba
2018-01-13, 05:58 AM
I'm considering a Cleric dip for my current Land Druid.
What I'm realizing about Land Druid X / Cleric is that you get a LOT out of a single level dip.
You are much more effective against Undead in the mid levels. Channel Divinity, Guiding Bolt, Protection from Evil, even Sacred Flame.
You have access to much more personal defense. Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary. And, those scale well to high levels.
You finally have enough spells to keep utilitarian Ritual spells memorized - like Detect Magic, Speak With Animals, or (who needs Medicine skill now) Detect Poison & Disease.
With your two extra Cleric Domain spells, and your 'dip' level doubling the effect of your Wisdom bonus on spells memorized, you get a heck of a lot more spells known. And each Wisdom increase is even more worthwhile.
You can use the single Cleric level for bread-and-butter first-level spells like Healing Word, Detect Magic or Detect Poison and Disease, freeing up Druid spells memorized for higher levels. You can actually justify keeping some utility ritual spells all the time!
In fact, the spells known is significant. Just playing with it for my character now:
Land Druid 6 with a 16 Wisdom
(6 from Level, 4 from Domain, 3 from Wisdom) = 13 spells known
Land Druid 5 / Cleric 1 with a 16 Wisdom
(6 from Level, 4 from Druid Domain, 2 from Cleric Domain, 6 from Wisdom) = 18 spells known
Is it worth losing Archdruid for this? It's tempting.
PeteNutButter
2018-01-13, 01:07 PM
I'm considering a Cleric dip for my current Land Druid.
What I'm realizing about Land Druid X / Cleric is that you get a LOT out of a single level dip.
You are much more effective against Undead in the mid levels. Channel Divinity, Guiding Bolt, Protection from Evil, even Sacred Flame.
You have access to much more personal defense. Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary. And, those scale well to high levels.
You finally have enough spells to keep utilitarian Ritual spells memorized - like Detect Magic, Speak With Animals, or (who needs Medicine skill now) Detect Poison & Disease.
With your two extra Cleric Domain spells, and your 'dip' level doubling the effect of your Wisdom bonus on spells memorized, you get a heck of a lot more spells known. And each Wisdom increase is even more worthwhile.
You can use the single Cleric level for bread-and-butter first-level spells like Healing Word, Detect Magic or Detect Poison and Disease, freeing up Druid spells memorized for higher levels. You can actually justify keeping some utility ritual spells all the time!
In fact, the spells known is significant. Just playing with it for my character now:
Land Druid 6 with a 16 Wisdom
(6 from Level, 4 from Domain, 3 from Wisdom) = 13 spells known
Land Druid 5 / Cleric 1 with a 16 Wisdom
(6 from Level, 4 from Druid Domain, 2 from Cleric Domain, 6 from Wisdom) = 18 spells known
Is it worth losing Archdruid for this? It's tempting.
*I think you mean spells prepared.*:smallbiggrin:
Yeah, it's good. There is a reason it's sky blue. It's an obvious upgrade at level 6, but at level 7 the pure druid has things like Polymorph and Conjure Woodland Gamebreakers [or whatever the DM wants]. High level druid spells are quite potent, and may not always be worth delaying.
Personally, I'm a fan of the life cleric dip. In conjunction with goodberry and now healing spirit... it's pretty insane healing.
Being behind one level on spells known is probably worth it at least on caster druids. Don't worry about level 20 abilities, they'll probably never show up. Even if they do, they don't help your character nearly as much for nearly as long.
Beelzebubba
2018-01-14, 04:50 AM
*I think you mean spells prepared.*:smallbiggrin:
Was that my AD&D showing again? :smalleek:
It's an obvious upgrade at level 6, but at level 7 the pure druid has things like Polymorph and Conjure Woodland Gamebreakers [or whatever the DM wants]. High level druid spells are quite potent, and may not always be worth delaying.
Yeah, you can say that at every level until you get 9th level spells, though. But you are trading it away for mid-level breadth. To me, picking up a bunch of rituals and cantrips is part of the appeal - you get Wizard-like utility, which is useful for some party compositions.
Personally, I'm a fan of the life cleric dip. In conjunction with goodberry and now healing spirit... it's pretty insane healing.
It's sweet, for sure - but another good one is Mountain Druid / Tempest Cleric. The domain abilities and spells mesh perfectly. Lightning Bolt will come into it's own once that 2nd level of Tempest Cleric kicks in; that one is probably worth putting of for a while, being 2 levels behind on those higher level spells is tough.
Jrpergande78
2018-01-19, 01:02 PM
How effective would a fighter/warlock(HexBlade)/sorcerer build be? I currently have a lvl 3 HexBlade and planned to dip into sorcerer, but also thought about adding one lvl of fighter.
PeteNutButter
2018-01-19, 02:06 PM
How effective would a fighter/warlock(HexBlade)/sorcerer build be? I currently have a lvl 3 HexBlade and planned to dip into sorcerer, but also thought about adding one lvl of fighter.
It'd be best if you had started fighter for con saves and potentially heavy armor. You don't want to spread yourself too thin. At this point make sure you take 5 levels of hexblade before anything else, since two attacks a round is a huge boon. If you spam EB you could delay that extra attack, but then your stuck not being in melee. After that you are probably better in sorcerer or more warlock. What is it you want out of fighter? It's probably worth it if you are an archer looking for that juicy +2 to hit, otherwise give it a miss.
Jrpergande78
2018-01-19, 02:23 PM
That's what I was thinking, so I'll keep to my plan of Warlock/Sorcerer. I had planned to wait to character level 6 before my first dip.
Fierdaus
2018-01-23, 11:17 AM
@PeteNutButter
Thanks for this amazing guide, this gives a lot of ideas!
I had a question regarding my existing character.
He is a Mountain Dwarf lvl 6 battlemaster fighter, lvl 1 Hexblade warlock with the following (rolled) stats:
STR 20 INT 7
DEX 9 WIS 10
CON 18 CHA 14
I have originally built him as a sword and board fighter with a +1 longsword. He has the shield master, martial adept and resilient wisdom (homebrew background) feats.
He is trying to become the best fighter there is to save his hometown from evil drow and other monsters and when xanathar's came out hexblade seemed like a very interesting multiclass option.
But now that I have started that path I'm not sure where to continue that path to. Warcaster and Sentinel seem nice feats
How many levels warlock will I take? Which pact boon should I take? Is grabbing some levels sorcerer useful?
I have found many guides on this with two handed weapons or even dual wielding weapons, but none with sword and board. Can anyone give me some tips?
Oh and my party consists of a paladin, a div wizard/tempest cleric, lore bard and hopefully a rogue (he just disappeared at the end of last session).
Thanks in advance!
PeteNutButter
2018-01-23, 12:34 PM
@PeteNutButter
Thanks for this amazing guide, this gives a lot of ideas!
I had a question regarding my existing character.
He is a Mountain Dwarf lvl 6 battlemaster fighter, lvl 1 Hexblade warlock with the following (rolled) stats:
STR 20 INT 7
DEX 9 WIS 10
CON 18 CHA 14
I have originally built him as a sword and board fighter with a +1 longsword. He has the shield master, martial adept and resilient wisdom (homebrew background) feats.
He is trying to become the best fighter there is to save his hometown from evil drow and other monsters and when xanathar's came out hexblade seemed like a very interesting multiclass option.
But now that I have started that path I'm not sure where to continue that path to. Warcaster and Sentinel seem nice feats
How many levels warlock will I take? Which pact boon should I take? Is grabbing some levels sorcerer useful?
I have found many guides on this with two handed weapons or even dual wielding weapons, but none with sword and board. Can anyone give me some tips?
Oh and my party consists of a paladin, a div wizard/tempest cleric, lore bard and hopefully a rogue (he just disappeared at the end of last session).
Thanks in advance!
Well hexblade is a great dip for people who want to use cha to attack. With your already maxed str, it’s basically 1 hex and 1 curse per short rest. That’s good, but both of those scale off of number of attacks. Given that, you’ll probably find nothing is quite as good as nabbing that 3rd attack at fighter 11. If you want to be the best fighter, be more fighter IMO.
Warcaster isn’t really worth it unless you’re casting the shield spell. Once a short rest from hexblade isn’t worth talking the feat. I’d consider it if you also dipped sorcerer.
Sentinel is very strong, especially if you’re the team tank and have limited reaction uses.
I don’t see much of an advantage to taking more than 2 levels in warlock, for the invocations.
Fighter 11/warlock 2/x is where’d I would aim.
For that x? What do you like? Blade bard could work, using flourishes to stack even more AC. They are basically more superioirty dice. I’d boost cha if I were to do that.
Maybe something like:
Fighter 12/warlock 3/blade bard 5 rushing fighter to 11 then bard to 5.
With all you have already, you can’t go wrong. Do what you want, but keep in mind most games don’t go all the way to 20.
Cressellan
2018-01-27, 12:55 PM
What is MADness? I'm having a bit of a time of it sorting the lingo here...
Just wanted to chime in and say a big thank you. This guide really showed me the customization/optimization options out there, which was a bit step toward getting me into D&D in general. Thanks to you, I’ve had enormous amounts of fun with my Dex based Barb/Rogue.
What is MADness? I'm having a bit of a time of it sorting the lingo here...
Multiple Attribute Disorder. It’s when you combine classes that key off different stats. Since Ability Score Improvements are precious, and point buy only allows you to specialize in two attributes.
Ralanr
2018-01-27, 02:39 PM
I’d call Warlock and Barbarian multiclass “Reaver” instead of “Rage blade”.
Matrix_Walker
2018-01-27, 08:35 PM
Multiple Attribute Disorder. It’s when you combine classes that key off different stats. Since Ability Score Improvements are precious, and point buy only allows you to specialize in two attributes.
LOL Good one
It's really Multiple Attribute Dependency, but "disorder" is pretty funny.
LOL Good one
It's really Multiple Attribute Dependency, but "disorder" is pretty funny.
Hahaha oh my God. I’d been working all night and really shouldn’t have been offering insight in my state. That is funny though.
ZorroGames
2018-01-28, 07:30 AM
Hahaha oh my God. I’d been working all night and really shouldn’t have been offering insight in my state. That is funny though.
I found that definition the cherry on top of a wonderful day when I read it. I may start using it with gaming friends.
Gracias!
ZorroGames
2018-02-03, 10:57 AM
Fighter dipping Wizard example - should the IN be 14 not 8 in the example spoiler? You need at least 13 IN to MC, right?
PeteNutButter
2018-02-03, 02:15 PM
Fighter dipping Wizard example - should the IN be 14 not 8 in the example spoiler? You need at least 13 IN to MC, right?
Looks like I transposed the int and cha. Thanks for catching it. I’ll fix it now.
ZorroGames
2018-02-03, 06:49 PM
Looks like I transposed the int and cha. Thanks for catching it. I’ll fix it now.
You’re welcome. I refuse to say how long I looked at that wondering, “this looks weird, why?”
Foxydono
2018-02-04, 06:05 AM
I've been thinking about creating a bard 18 / div wizard 2 back-up character in case my main dies. When I look at the guides multiclassing bard/wizard is rated purple, but when I look at the benefits end game, I'd say it's at least blue.
What you get: divination dice, which should't be underestimated. Shield, find familiar or other useful spells and you don't need a high int for this. Sure you can already take wizard spells at 6th, but you rather want to take other spells there like find steed, haste, counterspell etc. Same for higher levels. So I see some overlap but not much.
What you need: 13 int, I would't call this MAD, it's a small price to pay. What hurts the most is slower spell progression. But both are still caster classes, so it's not that bad. And if you look at the endgame, the last two bard levels are easily given up, since their lvl 20 ability sucks, so you miss one feat. Compared to what you get in return I'd say that is a fair deal.
So my conclusion is that this multiclass is quite worth while. Sure pally is better if you go melee and warlock gives devilsight and blasting, which is really good combo if you play a race without darkvision. But shield, find familiar and divination dice are excellent defense/control. I'd say just one step lower compared than the other two due to int requirement. So maybe you could reconsider the color rating.
PeteNutButter
2018-02-04, 10:28 AM
I've been thinking about creating a bard 18 / div wizard 2 back-up character in case my main dies. When I look at the guides multiclassing bard/wizard is rated purple, but when I look at the benefits end game, I'd say it's at least blue.
What you get: divination dice, which should't be underestimated. Shield, find familiar or other useful spells and you don't need a high int for this. Sure you can already take wizard spells at 6th, but you rather want to take other spells there like find steed, haste, counterspell etc. Same for higher levels. So I see some overlap but not much.
What you need: 13 int, I would't call this MAD, it's a small price to pay. What hurts the most is slower spell progression. But both are still caster classes, so it's not that bad. And if you look at the endgame, the last two bard levels are easily given up, since their lvl 20 ability sucks, so you miss one feat. Compared to what you get in return I'd say that is a fair deal.
So my conclusion is that this multiclass is quite worth while. Sure pally is better if you go melee and warlock gives devilsight and blasting, which is really good combo if you play a race without darkvision. But shield, find familiar and divination dice are excellent defense/control. I'd say just one step lower compared than the other two due to int requirement. So maybe you could reconsider the color rating.
You'll note that I've had similar conversations above with a lot of purple rated MCs. The reality is that there are many viable purple options. The main thing wizard offers over sorcerer is the rituals, such as find familiar. While strong, 5 points on point buy makes the character significantly weaker in either AC, HP, or casting for the bulk of their career. That doesn't say it's not viable, just says it takes some optimization, and knowing what you're doing. The diviner dice are good, but are good on any character. There is nothing that makes it specifically synergistic between bard and wizard, just a strong feature.
To sum up, strong individual features do not make MC combinations rated higher, the highest rated MCs, are things where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If it's MAD and has no obvious synergy (but still some good features on both sides) then it'll end up purple. I'll also repeat that I've played several purple combinations to success.
Pimplup
2018-02-06, 11:10 PM
I think Rogue/Wizard is blue in the chart and light blue in the description.
PeteNutButter
2018-02-07, 11:35 AM
I think Rogue/Wizard is blue in the chart and light blue in the description.
Fixed. Thank you.
ZorroGames
2018-02-08, 09:26 AM
Looking at this and hearing one of my co-players in Chult about our lack of a tank or a rogue started me thinking.
The other three are pretty much always some kind of caster (Tortle Cleric, Druid, Warlock, never a Bard, and this is compounded by our Melee Ranger or Paladin player is in an extended duration MTG - I think - tournament) so I started crafting a “next campaign” Mountain Dwarf (of course :smallwink: what else) version of this:
From your guide:
Human V. (SM)
BM Fighter 6/Swashbuckler 3+
16, 13, 16, 8, 10, 10
Champion might be tempting for big crits on sneak attacks, but nothing beats Riposte on rogues. Combine with sentinel and a good AC for regular reaction attacks that utilize sneak attack 2 times per round. Rapier and shield works with either dex or str build. Str build is better at using shield master and usually a little more AC, dex retains ability to stealth and perform other roguish actions.
With that build goal and Mountain Dwarf Strength and Constitution boosts I have 4 left over build points. Should I boost IN to 12 for skills or split between boosting DE to 14 and IN to 10? I prefer the first but input would be nice before I make my decision.
I am playing a ranged Ranger currently iin this campaign so this would the next campaign since we are levels 5 (me, having missed two sessions,) to 7 and I prefer building from Level 1.
Edit: It was pointed out to me that a high CH score might be useful for a swashbuckler so I might boost CH to 12 and IN to 10.
PeteNutButter
2018-02-09, 12:15 PM
Looking at this and hearing one of my co-players in Chult about our lack of a tank or a rogue started me thinking.
The other three are pretty much always some kind of caster (Tortle Cleric, Druid, Warlock, never a Bard, and this is compounded by our Melee Ranger or Paladin player is in an extended duration MTG - I think - tournament) so I started crafting a “next campaign” Mountain Dwarf (of course :smallwink: what else) version of this:
From your guide:
Human V. (SM)
BM Fighter 6/Swashbuckler 3+
16, 13, 16, 8, 10, 10
Champion might be tempting for big crits on sneak attacks, but nothing beats Riposte on rogues. Combine with sentinel and a good AC for regular reaction attacks that utilize sneak attack 2 times per round. Rapier and shield works with either dex or str build. Str build is better at using shield master and usually a little more AC, dex retains ability to stealth and perform other roguish actions.
With that build goal and Mountain Dwarf Strength and Constitution boosts I have 4 left over build points. Should I boost IN to 12 for skills or split between boosting DE to 14 and IN to 10? I prefer the first but input would be nice before I make my decision.
I am playing a ranged Ranger currently iin this campaign so this would the next campaign since we are levels 5 (me, having missed two sessions,) to 7 and I prefer building from Level 1.
Edit: It was pointed out to me that a high CH score might be useful for a swashbuckler so I might boost CH to 12 and IN to 10.
I don't value initiative all that much, but int is pretty useless. I'm a big fan of mountain dwarf starting with two 17s (str/con) and using ASI to have to 18s earlier than any other race.
ZorroGames
2018-02-09, 05:48 PM
I don't value initiative all that much, but int is pretty useless. I'm a big fan of mountain dwarf starting with two 17s (str/con) and using ASI to have to 18s earlier than any other race.
So,
17
13
17
8
12
8
For example?
Or
.
.
.
8
10
10
?
Mister_Squinty
2018-02-12, 02:26 PM
So,
17
13
17
8
12
8
For example?
Or
.
.
.
8
10
10
?
My Mtn Dwarf Barb went
17
14
17
8
10
8
Max DX for Medium Armor (although your Unarmored Defense is as good as a Breastplate), first ASL went +1ST, +1CN for the 18s. After that, you have the options to bump WS if you're worried about saves, Shield Master for bash and stab fun, etc. Bear totem with Uncanny Dodge is borderline gamebreaking.
ZorroGames
2018-03-17, 10:16 AM
When to dip is not obvious to me in some cases.
I get Fighter at first for Warlock/Fighter (Maledictor) with Fighter second “sometime later.”
Ditto for Bard/Fighter (Wardrummer.) And Fighter 1, Wizard 5, Fighter 2, Wizard 18, for Spell Sword.
But somethings are not so clear to me.
One such case is the (Guerrila) Rogue/Fighter - the Fighter 6 (Battle Master) - and Rogue 1+ build.
Do you think you should Take Fighter first or Rogue? Should you take Fighter to 6, pumping DE at 4th and 6th then proceed Rogue?
Or should you take Rogue 1st then Fighter 6 for Rogue skills and that 1D6 of sneak attack then after Fighter 6 return to Rogue for the rest of the build past 7th?
The Striker (Fighter 4/Ranger X) and Pugilist builds are for another couple of posts.
ZorroGames
2018-03-17, 10:18 AM
My Mtn Dwarf Barb went
17
14
17
8
10
8
Max DX for Medium Armor (although your Unarmored Defense is as good as a Breastplate), first ASL went +1ST, +1CN for the 18s. After that, you have the options to bump WS if you're worried about saves, Shield Master for bash and stab fun, etc. Bear totem with Uncanny Dodge is borderline gamebreaking.
That is another great build for Mountain Dwarf Barbarian.
ZorroGames
2018-03-17, 10:19 AM
I don't value initiative all that much, but int is pretty useless. I'm a big fan of mountain dwarf starting with two 17s (str/con) and using ASI to have to 18s earlier than any other race.
Sorry for the delayed reply, thanks very much.
Blahdalizer
2018-03-19, 01:32 PM
This is a great guide. I was researching multi class wizard/cleric, and I was not disappointed. Though why do barbarian/monk and monk/barbarian have different pictures? And why are they both characters from other franchises?
Arkhios
2018-03-19, 01:39 PM
This is a great guide. I was researching multi class wizard/cleric, and I was not disappointed. Though why do barbarian/monk and monk/barbarian have different pictures? And why are they both characters from other franchises?
I'm AFB, but if I recall, In regards to Unarmored Defense when multiclassing is determined by the order of which class grants it first.
While the name of the feature is same, they are not exactly the same, as funny as it may seem to be.
Barbarian's Unarmored Defense: 10+Dex+Con+Shield (if available)
vs.
Monk's Unarmored Defense:
10+Dex+Wis (doesn't work with shield)
While not a direct answer to the question, this might provide a clue to why the pictures are different.
ZorroGames
2018-03-19, 03:41 PM
I present some musings from what certainly cannot be called an analysis but caught my attention.
Assume Gold and Sky Blue are grouped as, “IF you multiclass you must look at this!”
Blue and Black as varying levels of, “Well it depends on your goals.”
Purple and Red as layers of, “Muhahahahaha, really?”
Looking at what are the most common beneficial (Gold and Sky Blue) classes to dip into I see Fighter with 7, Cleric with 5; Rogue with 4, Paladin/Ranger/Sorcerer/Warlock with 3; Barbarian and Bard with 1 followed by Druid, Monk and Wizard with 0.
So my take away is that the best classes commonly that add value as a dip are Fighter and Cleric with Rogue quite competitive.
The least Common value adding dip in general seem to be Druid, Monk and Wizard (two of them are in my single class favorites from the first rendition of the game when there were no editions or “basic” versions.)
Of course choosing to multiclass and how to/when to do so is much more complicated than my little snapshot though any thoughts on what, if anything, that means are welcome.
ZorroGames
2018-03-19, 03:51 PM
And for those are into more painful rambling it is noted that Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue have least number of bottom tier values at 0, 0, and 0 each. Make what you may of that. I see it as an indicator a potentially good set of classes to consider dipping.
Highest number of purple and red values are are Monk and Wizard at 7. I conclude when it is comes to single class players that Monk and Wizard should provide the least temptation to taint the character with muddled ‘signature’ traits. Or maybe that means absolutely nothing?
As slways, YMMV and probably should.
PeteNutButter
2018-03-19, 11:56 PM
I present some musings from what certainly cannot be called an analysis but caught my attention.
Assume Gold and Sky Blue are grouped as, “IF you multiclass you must look at this!”
Blue and Black as varying levels of, “Well it depends on your goals.”
Purple and Red as layers of, “Muhahahahaha, really?”
Looking at what are the most common beneficial (Gold and Sky Blue) classes to dip into I see Fighter with 7, Cleric with 5; Rogue with 4, Paladin/Ranger/Sorcerer/Warlock with 3; Barbarian and Bard with 1 followed by Druid, Monk and Wizard with 0.
So my take away is that the best classes commonly that add value as a dip are Fighter and Cleric with Rogue quite competitive.
The least Common value adding dip in general seem to be Druid, Monk and Wizard (two of them are in my single class favorites from the first rendition of the game when there were no editions or “basic” versions.)
Of course choosing to multiclass and how to/when to do so is much more complicated than my little snapshot though any thoughts on what, if anything, that means are welcome.
And for those are into more painful rambling it is noted that Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue have least number of bottom tier values at 0, 0, and 0 each. Make what you may of that. I see it as an indicator a potentially good set of classes to consider dipping.
Highest number of purple and red values are are Monk and Wizard at 7. I conclude when it is comes to single class players that Monk and Wizard should provide the least temptation to taint the character with muddled ‘signature’ traits. Or maybe that means absolutely nothing?
As slways, YMMV and probably should.
Interesting analysis, I generally did my best to optimize each combination and just rated it on how viable/easy/optimal that combination was, without regard to the bigger picture. It does make sense that those classes that require only one 13 in a stat that is a common save (dex or wis) are an obvious choice for many combinations.
While on the negative side, the monk needs a good reason to delay ASI and ki progression. The wizard has the strongest spell list, so needs a good reason to be avoiding that.
I'm AFB, but if I recall, In regards to Unarmored Defense when multiclassing is determined by the order of which class grants it first.
While the name of the feature is same, they are not exactly the same, as funny as it may seem to be.
Barbarian's Unarmored Defense: 10+Dex+Con+Shield (if available)
vs.
Monk's Unarmored Defense:
10+Dex+Wis (doesn't work with shield)
While not a direct answer to the question, this might provide a clue to why the pictures are different.
In regards to the barbarian/monk differences. The breakdown assumes you'll probably only have one class with 5+ levels to avoid doubling up on extra attack. If barbarian is that class, you will struggle to make use of monk abilities with uses that scale directly with ki, and might be missing out on the amazing feature of stunning strike. If monk is primary class, you get most of the strength of barbarian in just 1-4 levels and can have the ki to support your flurries and stuns.
As for the picture differences... well there is no long form logic on those. Just gut feelings that I felt fit as best as I could find with some google image search in 10 minutes or so. Due to the number of entries, I had to continually urge myself on to get this project done, and settle on pictures to keep it going. Some of them aren't the best. /shrug They hopefully get the idea across, or best case scenario, inspire players to try new things.
ZorroGames
2018-03-20, 07:27 AM
Interesting analysis, I generally did my best to optimize each combination and just rated it on how viable/easy/optimal that combination was, without regard to the bigger picture. It does make sense that those classes that require only one 13 in a stat that is a common save (dex or wis) are an obvious choice for many combinations.
While on the negative side, the monk needs a good reason to delay ASI and ki progression. The wizard has the strongest spell list, so needs a good reason to be avoiding that.
In regards to the barbarian/monk differences. The breakdown assumes you'll probably only have one class with 5+ levels to avoid doubling up on extra attack. If barbarian is that class, you will struggle to make use of monk abilities with uses that scale directly with ki, and might be missing out on the amazing feature of stunning strike. If monk is primary class, you get most of the strength of barbarian in just 1-4 levels and can have the ki to support your flurries and stuns.
As for the picture differences... well there is no long form logic on those. Just gut feelings that I felt fit as best as I could find with some google image search in 10 minutes or so. Due to the number of entries, I had to continually urge myself on to get this project done, and settle on pictures to keep it going. Some of them aren't the best. /shrug They hopefully get the idea across, or best case scenario, inspire players to try new things.
Yeah it does. Never ever would have considered 🙄 F1/Warlock X before reading this guide for my crazy extended family of Mountain Dwarf characters.
Or my Pal 2/Bard X - looking for all those bad puns about - searing smite - “Hot Song, Riswynn,” and the like.
quark12000
2018-03-24, 09:57 AM
I have a fighter that I'm thinking of multiclassing into barbarian after 5th level, so I read your analysis. What do you mean when you say GWM fighters can have "at will advantage"? I read the feat and it doesn't say that anywhere. Very confused.
I have a fighter that I'm thinking of multiclassing into barbarian after 5th level, so I read your analysis. What do you mean when you say GWM fighters can have "at will advantage"? I read the feat and it doesn't say that anywhere. Very confused.
At level 2, Barbarian gets Reckless Attack, which allows them to have advantage on their first strength based attack that turn, but all attacks against them have advantage as well. This is a really popular combo with GWM as it helps to curb the -5 to hit.
quark12000
2018-03-24, 10:16 AM
Ah, I thought it had something to do with the feat, since he specified GWM. But Reckless Attack grants that to all STR attacks, right?
Armored Walrus
2018-03-24, 10:36 AM
Reckless attack grants advantage at will. Which is particularly important to gwm fights because it allows them to counteract the -5 to hit from using that aspect of the feat.
quark12000
2018-03-24, 11:02 AM
Too bad my guy is a sword and shield fighter.
Quick question. The description for Bard/Barbarian lists it as black, but the header and chart lists it as purple. Is there a reason for this or is it a mistake?
PeteNutButter
2018-04-08, 09:44 PM
Quick question. The description for Bard/Barbarian lists it as black, but the header and chart lists it as purple. Is there a reason for this or is it a mistake?
A mistake. I'm guessing I changed the rating in the entry with the release of the Swords Bard, but forgot to update the chart. Black seems the best fit, as it's MAD but not the worst dip if you plan to wade into melee. For any gish build that wants to dip barb it helps to think of rage as a concentration spell, a very strong one. It lasts for a minute, is usually harder to "break concentration" compared to a spell and is much stronger than any level 1 or 2 spell.
Arkhios
2018-04-08, 10:17 PM
I have a fighter that I'm thinking of multiclassing into barbarian after 5th level, so I read your analysis. What do you mean when you say GWM fighters can have "at will advantage"? I read the feat and it doesn't say that anywhere. Very confused.
Too bad my guy is a sword and shield fighter.
Is your fighter using heavy or medium armor? Because rage doesn't work great with heavy armor. For example, you won't be able to benefit from the bonus damage, advantage to strength checks and saving throws, and resistance to physical damage. But you will still suffer from all penalties of rage.
That said, if you use medium armor, Reckless Attack is still great for you even though you use sword and shield. Reckless Attack makes you sticky/tanky because of that advantage to hit, but also a tempting target for your enemies, since they also get advantage on attack rolls against you when you use Reckless Attack. Combined with rage and shield you're still quite safe.
quark12000
2018-04-08, 11:47 PM
Is your fighter using heavy or medium armor? Because rage doesn't work great with heavy armor. For example, you won't be able to benefit from the bonus damage, advantage to strength checks and saving throws, and resistance to physical damage. But you will still suffer from all penalties of rage.
That said, if you use medium armor, Reckless Attack is still great for you even though you use sword and shield. Reckless Attack makes you sticky/tanky because of that advantage to hit, but also a tempting target for your enemies, since they also get advantage on attack rolls against you when you use Reckless Attack. Combined with rage and shield you're still quite safe.
Right now he's using heavy (chainmail), but I plan on switching to medium (half-plate), which works out to the same AC but will allow him to rage.
Arkhios
2018-04-09, 12:16 AM
Right now he's using heavy (chainmail), but I plan on switching to medium (half-plate), which works out to the same AC but will allow him to rage.
Then you're good.
Although, a minor nitpick: it's not that heavy armor wouldn't allow you to rage, it's just that rage doesn't function as well in heavy armor as it does in medium armor or unarmored. But, as I said, it's a minor detail. Still, a detail worth mentioning, because if you read the Rules as they are written, some Barbarian sub-class features keep functioning normally in rage, regardless of the type of armor you use. Its the baseline rage that gets wonky with heavy armor. :smallbiggrin:
RoseTheLesbian
2018-04-15, 04:44 PM
I was thinking of making an Arcane Archer 15/War Wizard 5, picking up utility spells along the way. Is this advised or should I stick with Arcane X/WW 2? Thank you
quark12000
2018-04-15, 06:04 PM
Which is better, Sorc5/Lock3 with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, or Sorc5/Lock2 and take Ritual Caster with the ASI?
Also, which metamagics are best for this build?
PeteNutButter
2018-04-15, 09:42 PM
I was thinking of making an Arcane Archer 15/War Wizard 5, picking up utility spells along the way. Is this advised or should I stick with Arcane X/WW 2? Thank you
I don't plan for level 20 builds. Play what you want on each level up. Arcane Archer is a bit dull in practice with just two arrows per short rest, so you might have more fun picking up the wizard levels. Personally I'd think if you aren't going for 4 attacks as a fighter, you might as well get some wizard spells that are useful like haste or counterspell. Gauge your party/DM and see how often you take fight after fight without short rest. In my experience it isn't often, especially at high level play. That means arcane archer 15 is pretty worthless so fighter 11 (or 12 for ASI) is your best breakpoint leaving the rest to wizard. If you're short on ASIs you can go more fighter, but more wizard levels will ultimately add more I'd think.
Which is better, Sorc5/Lock3 with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, or Sorc5/Lock2 and take Ritual Caster with the ASI?
Also, which metamagics are best for this build?
I typically say don't go past two levels in warlock unless you want to take more. A sorc 5/lock 3 is only going to have an 18 cha assuming normal point buy. You'll be best suited from there to take that fourth warlock level and boost it to 20, then you'll be best suited to get those 3rd level slots and another invocation from warlock 5. Either cut warlock off at 2 or expect to take it to 5.
Personally I don't value the book of ancient secrets so much. It is keyed off of warlock level, so if you don't go above 3rd level in warlock you can only have up to level 2 rituals in it. It's a lot of resources to invest into a feature that several other classes can mimic at least in part. I'd avoid the warlock trap, and stay sorcerer, maxing cha before taking any feat. After that its fair game if you want to ritual cast via the feat, as it can net those higher level rituals.
As for metamagics, definitely quicken for the double eldritch blast. Other than that, it's really to taste. Twin is the popular choice, for things like twinning haste, but losing concentration on that can lose a fight.
Kaliayev
2018-04-16, 02:06 AM
I appreciate the effort that went into this guide, but I'm skeptical of any build suggestions that pair 8 str and medium or heavy armor. Every DM I know would raise an eyebrow at this level of min/maxing and apply the variant encumbrance rules. You're then looking at significant penalties to your capabilities in combat. If your DM lets you get away with this, more power to you, but such suggestions have more than a little whiff of bs to them.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-16, 09:47 AM
I appreciate the effort that went into this guide, but I'm skeptical of any build suggestions that pair 8 str and medium or heavy armor. Every DM I know would raise an eyebrow at this level of min/maxing and apply the variant encumbrance rules. You're then looking at significant penalties to your capabilities in combat. If your DM lets you get away with this, more power to you, but such suggestions have more than a little whiff of bs to them.
I rarely suggest pairing an 8 str with heavy armor as it causes a movement speed penalty. As for medium armor, you can carry 15 lbs per str point by default rules. That’s 120 lbs for an 8 str so plenty enough to carry that armor. If your DM uses other encumbrance rules than you may need to adjust. This is an optimization guide based on RAW, so it will attempt to be optimal within those parameters. If str is one of your dump stats you simply don’t need it for encumbrance in 5e.
Kaliayev
2018-04-16, 10:27 AM
I rarely suggest pairing an 8 str with heavy armor as it causes a movement speed penalty. As for medium armor, you can carry 15 lbs per str point by default rules. That’s 120 lbs for an 8 str so plenty enough to carry that armor. If your DM uses other encumbrance rules than you may need to adjust. This is an optimization guide based on RAW, so it will attempt to be optimal within those parameters. If str is one of your dump stats you simply don’t need it for encumbrance in 5e.
Quite a few of your cleric-based multi-classing suggestions, be they cleric primary or cleric dipping, treat str as an 8 point dump stat while exploiting the heavy armor proficiency grab. If we're really going RAW and disregarding all variant rules within PHB, then the point buy system should be disregarded as well. That leaves players with the basic spread or rolling. AL can be incredibly silly at times.
p.s. Variant encumbrance is on page 176 of PHB.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-16, 10:34 AM
Quite a few of your cleric-based multi-classing suggestions, be they cleric primary or cleric dipping, treat str as an 8 point dump stat while exploiting the heavy armor proficiency grab. If we're really going RAW and disregarding all variant rules within PHB, then the point buy system should be disregarded as well. That leaves players with the basic spread or rolling. AL can be incredibly silly at times.
p.s. Variant encumbrance is on page 176 of PHB.
I did mention that the guide makes basic AL assumptions so adjust as necessary. It’s right there in the Guidelines section. There is far too much variability to account for every option of character creation and every optional rule. AL rules are just a good baseline. All D&D rules are silly oversimplifications that make the game playable. If you cannot adjust any useful takeaways for your own game that’s unfortunate, but to call it an error in the guide when it openly states the parameters... is silly.
Without going back and looking, I’d guess most of my 8 str plate wearers are dwarves so it negates the movement speed penalty.
Kaliayev
2018-04-16, 11:19 AM
I did mention that the guide makes basic AL assumptions so adjust as necessary. It’s right there in the Guidelines section. There is far too much variability to account for every option of character creation and every optional rule. AL rules are just a good baseline. All D&D rules are silly oversimplifications that make the game playable. If you cannot adjust any useful takeaways for your own game that’s unfortunate, but to call it an error in the guide when it openly states the parameters... is silly.
Without going back and looking, I’d guess most of my 8 str plate wearers are dwarves so it negates the movement speed penalty.
From what I can tell, most of them are half-elf or variant human. Like I said, I appreciate the guide. For a lot of the combinations, it's spot on, even with the instances of triple stat dumping. It's the heavy armor and 8 str combo suggestions that I find problematic. Even in AL, a lot of PCs will take a speed hit with that combination. AL's selectivity with variant, optional, and RAW often strikes me as silly. AL will take the variant point buy and optional feats, and disregard a number of the other variant and optional rules that offer more realistic rping.
Outside of AL, players should assume that variant encumbrance is on the table when making and leveling a character. A character with a str dump stat and heavy armor can quickly find themselves in the position of losing 20 feet in speed and being at disadvantage with all str, dex, and con rolls, even if they drop their pack prior to a fight. It's not a pretty sight.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-16, 04:14 PM
From what I can tell, most of them are half-elf or variant human. Like I said, I appreciate the guide. For a lot of the combinations, it's spot on, even with the instances of triple stat dumping. It's the heavy armor and 8 str combo suggestions that I find problematic. Even in AL, a lot of PCs will take a speed hit with that combination. AL's selectivity with variant, optional, and RAW often strikes me as silly. AL will take the variant point buy and optional feats, and disregard a number of the other variant and optional rules that offer more realistic rping.
I think you may be misinterpreting what I am saying... In several of the builds I mention that a strength build for heavy armor is an option, but list a dex based build intending to wear medium armor. I would not suggest wearing heavy armor without some way of counteracting the movement speed penalty, or in some very niche build. Some of the classes are so hard to combine with point buy stats that you just have to make sacrifices.
quark12000
2018-04-16, 05:46 PM
Personally I don't value the book of ancient secrets so much. It is keyed off of warlock level, so if you don't go above 3rd level in warlock you can only have up to level 2 rituals in it. It's a lot of resources to invest into a feature that several other classes can mimic at least in part. I'd avoid the warlock trap, and stay sorcerer, maxing cha before taking any feat. After that its fair game if you want to ritual cast via the feat, as it can net those higher level rituals.
What about Elemental Adept? He's a Draconic Sorcerer (fire).
PeteNutButter
2018-04-16, 06:14 PM
What about Elemental Adept? He's a Draconic Sorcerer (fire).
Solid feat for blasters as slews of foes are resistant to fire. Make sure you keep some other damage type spells around for things like red dragons or devils.
quark12000
2018-04-16, 06:18 PM
Solid feat for blasters as slews of foes are resistant to fire. Make sure you keep some other damage type spells around for things like red dragons or devils.
That was a reason to take Warlock levels. I think I agree with you, though. Two are enough. I just kind of wanted a familiar.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-16, 07:52 PM
Hey PeteNutButter, thanks for the guide, quite handy.
I'm having a problem understanding something under the Bard/Cleric entry. You say: "The common life cleric 1/lore bard 6+ is now more or less obsolete with the introduction of Healing Spirit spell."
Why is that? Wouldn't this multiclass take Healing Spirits for their Magical Secrets at level 6 Lore Bard instead of Goodberry or Aura of Vitality, making it an even stonger build than before? What am I missing?
It isn't entirely obsolete, just that taking aura of vitality combined with lore bard 6 was a big way to boost healing, but healing spirit is easier to get without bard and doesn't always require a bonus action. The strength of the lore bard/life cleric was grabbing a paladin spell before even the paladin could get it.
Healing spirit is a better spell that is faster to get through druid (or even ranger for that matter) than through 6 levels in bard. All that combined, means a dream druid/life cleric is probably the best healer in the game now, knocking off the lore bard 6+/life cleric 1. The bard still has perks though, like being able to grab one solid offensive magical secret (and more later), as well as potentially wearing metal armor without running into DM issues as a druid would. One massive point for the druid/cleric is it's all wisdom making him SAD.
As soon as level 4 he is casting Healing Spirit for 1d6+4 all fight long, and potentially having the party tonga line through what's left post-fight. I've cast Healing Spirit with a 7th level slot, and didn't regret it one bit. If I had a life cleric level on my druid it'd be 6d6+9... That's too much healing. Park that on the tank and the baddies have to deal more than 30 damage a round to just get through the sustain.
That was a reason to take Warlock levels. I think I agree with you, though. Two are enough. I just kind of wanted a familiar.
They are solid. Get a ring of spell storing and make the wizard cast it into it. :smalltongue:
8wGremlin
2018-04-16, 08:17 PM
UA Cleric of Order (UA)/* any of Bard, Warlock or Wizard with the puppet (UA - starting spell) spell.
Comes online from 2nd level, puppet allows the caster to move the target its full move (no action) if it fails a CON save.
* Target your allies and get them to purposely fail their save
* You get to move them, and then they get a free attack using their reaction
quark12000
2018-04-17, 11:37 PM
I
They are solid. Get a ring of spell storing and make the wizard cast it into it. :smalltongue:
A ring of spell storing? What's that? And where would I find one? By the way, this is an AL character, if that makes any difference.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-18, 07:45 AM
A ring of spell storing? What's that? And where would I find one? By the way, this is an AL character, if that makes any difference.
It's a magic item from the DMG. There are like 4 different AL adventures that have it, and I think 2 are in the Tales from Yawning Portal. It helps if you DM every now and again. If there is some chase item I'm after I use my DM quests to give my character a magic item, but that requires a total of 24 hours of DMing (basically 8 sessions).
quark12000
2018-04-19, 03:16 PM
It's a magic item from the DMG. There are like 4 different AL adventures that have it, and I think 2 are in the Tales from Yawning Portal. It helps if you DM every now and again. If there is some chase item I'm after I use my DM quests to give my character a magic item, but that requires a total of 24 hours of DMing (basically 8 sessions).
Yeah, I don't DM. I barely have enough time to play!
Just wanted to check, do you endorse the 'Strive for Five' idea? Have, at least, 5 levels before multiclassing?
PeteNutButter
2018-04-19, 06:09 PM
Yeah, I don't DM. I barely have enough time to play!
Just wanted to check, do you endorse the 'Strive for Five' idea? Have, at least, 5 levels before multiclassing?
Not really. It might be optimal, but I’m impatient and like getting an idea online as soon as possible. I’ve just embraced that I never get extra attack until 6th at the earliest. In the case of warlocks specifically, it’s not so bad to MC early as a 5th character can eldritch blast just fine provided they have those 2 warlock levels. You’ll regret not having 3rd level spells for a level or two but can still Cantrip about as hard as any martial can attack.
quark12000
2018-04-19, 07:49 PM
Not really. It might be optimal, but I’m impatient and like getting an idea online as soon as possible. I’ve just embraced that I never get extra attack until 6th at the earliest. In the case of warlocks specifically, it’s not so bad to MC early as a 5th character can eldritch blast just fine provided they have those 2 warlock levels. You’ll regret not having 3rd level spells for a level or two but can still Cantrip about as hard as any martial can attack.
I get it. But, in AL at least, you kind of need those 3rd level spells when you get to tier 2 play. I plan on getting 5 levels of sorcerer and then taking the two levels of warlock, then back to finish up as a sorcerer. I'm at level 3 with him now, but soon to go to 4. I need that ASI, man! So I can't do it then.
Would you advise going 4 levels of sorcerer and then take the two warlock levels? That would mean waiting until character level 7 to get the potent third level spells.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-20, 08:49 AM
I get it. But, in AL at least, you kind of need those 3rd level spells when you get to tier 2 play. I plan on getting 5 levels of sorcerer and then taking the two levels of warlock, then back to finish up as a sorcerer. I'm at level 3 with him now, but soon to go to 4. I need that ASI, man! So I can't do it then.
Would you advise going 4 levels of sorcerer and then take the two warlock levels? That would mean waiting until character level 7 to get the potent third level spells.
If you’re going to go to sorcerer 4 for the ASI, which is reasonable, you might as well take it to 5 first. Remember in AL you can change your character around between sessions, so you might want to try a session as 2/2 once you’re level 4.
Platypusbill
2018-04-20, 12:38 PM
Do you think it's worthwhile for an Open Hand Monk who dips Cleric to use the Bane spell? Bane is essentially the opposite of Bless, but IMO generally inferior because of multiple reasons:
A) the targeted enemies are unaffected if they succeed on a Charisma save, while Bless always works
B) enemies are generally weaker/more numerous than party members, so a penalty to three enemies is weaker than an equal bonus to three party members
C) once an enemy goes down, the effect for that enemy is lost
D) maintaining concentration is easier with Bless if you target yourself, as it boosts your own saving throws
However, the idea is that you would use Bane to increase the chances of succesful Stunning Strikes and to a lesser extent Open Hand Technique prone/push effects, basically crippling the enemy by spamming save-or-suck effects.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-20, 12:47 PM
Do you think it's worthwhile for an Open Hand Monk who dips Cleric to use the Bane spell? Bane is essentially the opposite of Bless, but IMO generally inferior because of multiple reasons:
A) the targeted enemies are unaffected if they succeed on a Charisma save, while Bless always works
B) enemies are generally weaker/numerous than party members, so a penalty to them is weaker than an equal bonus to allies
C) once an enemy goes down, the effect for that enemy is lost
D) maintaining concentration is easier with Bless if you target yourself, as it boosts your own saving throws
However, the idea is that you would use Bane to increase the chances of succesful Stunning Strikes and to a lesser extent Open Hand Technique prone/push effects, basically crippling the enemy by spamming save-or-suck effects.
I've honestly never seen Bane cast. Debuff spells in general are fairly weak as most combats last no more than a few rounds. Since it offers a save, it stands to reason that someone could instead just cast a spell on the foe that is actually debilitating. I'd say the math on Bane probably isn't worth it unless you are confident that the fight will last a long time. If you or your teammates have high AC, the attack penalty is probably nice. So if you can stick it on the BBEG, go for it. Don't bother with mooks.
Bless will always be better as it is more offensive and save free.
Jrpergande78
2018-04-22, 12:02 PM
I have a quick question for you.
I'm currently playing g gloomstalker and looking at your guide you have fighter or rogue as a viable multi class.
In the fighter you said the following
"Human V. (SS)
Gloomstalker 5+/Battlemaster 4
10, 16, 14, 8, 16, 8
Gloomstalker + Action surge + Precision Strike on SS arrows. 'Nuff said."
The question I have is, what is SS arrows?
quark12000
2018-04-22, 12:21 PM
Sharpshooter.
Wish you'd write guides for all the classes since no one else bothers to update theirs in three years
strangebloke
2018-04-23, 03:39 PM
Wish you'd write guides for all the classes since no one else bothers to update theirs in three years
Most of the classes have up-to-date guides on this site.... Not all of them are great, but they're mostly up-to-date.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-24, 08:11 AM
Wish you'd write guides for all the classes since no one else bothers to update theirs in three years
But this is a guide for every class. :smalltongue:
If I had more space, I'd expand it even more to cover more info on the single classes. Perhaps when the next big book comes out I'll be motivated to make more guides due to space limitations.
Well you could always start a new thread and reserve more posts for yourself.
The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk.
Why would monks be duellist? They can't even use a shield so there's no reason not to use two weapons no? And if they were wielding a single weapon well it'd be a heavy one not a one hander.
Wouldn't two weapon fighting be the classic monk? Two fists afterall.
Most of the classes have up-to-date guides on this site.... Not all of them are great, but they're mostly up-to-date.
Please link those for me because when I search around I don't see anything.
Even the guide to guides hasn't been updated in years
Armored Walrus
2018-04-24, 10:31 AM
All the ones authored by EvilAnagram have been recently updated, and are in the guide of guides.
strangebloke
2018-04-24, 11:02 AM
Please link those for me because when I search around I don't see anything.
Even the guide to guides hasn't been updated in years
You can easily Google this, I'm not providing links.
Evil anagram has guides for druid, Paladin, warlock, Sorcerer, ranger, bard, and cleric.
Hymer has an up to date druid guide.
Treant monk has a wizard guide and a xgte guide. Their separate but both useful.
You're missing fighter, barbarian, and rogue, I think. But those builds are much simpler, imo.
EvilAnagram
2018-04-24, 04:37 PM
You can easily Google this, I'm not providing links.
Evil anagram has guides for druid, Paladin, warlock, Sorcerer, ranger, bard, and cleric.
Hymer has an up to date druid guide.
Treant monk has a wizard guide and a xgte guide. Their separate but both useful.
You're missing fighter, barbarian, and rogue, I think. But those builds are much simpler, imo.
I don't like advertising my guide in other guides, but I should correct this. I have guides for Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, and Warlock. Links are in my signature.
PeteNutButter
2018-04-24, 05:27 PM
Why would monks be duellist? They can't even use a shield so there's no reason not to use two weapons no? And if they were wielding a single weapon well it'd be a heavy one not a one hander.
Wouldn't two weapon fighting be the classic monk? Two fists afterall.
The best weapon for a pure monk is a staff or a spear. They deal 1d8 when wielded in two hands. For a Kensei it'd be a longsword, warhammer, or battle axe for that versatile d10.
The dueling FS is the only FS that does anything for most monks. It gives +2 damage when using a weapon such as a shortsword moving your damage from 1d8 to 1d6+2, which is one better on average and more consistent. Additionally by level 11 that shortsword is dealing 1d8 (the same as using a staff or spear with two hands) but still gets to add that +2.
TWF does nothing for a monk. 1) Your fists do not qualify as melee weapons so you can't TWF with hands. 2) You already have a built in bonus action attack that would compete with TWF, so there is no reason to use TWF.
No fighting style helps unarmed strikes in any way.
*I am of course ignoring UA FS options, as I always ignore UA*
Thanks for the Guide pointers, wish the Guide to Guides had a last updated on each Guide I obviously missed EvilAnagrams (in part because I didn't look at every guide in part because those I did look at I checked last edit part of the first post and assumed not in 2018 was out dated)
Thanks for the tips on FS. I definitely misunderstood the interactions between monk weapons and fighting style. I'm following your Kensei build but going for 4 Ranger first (though I'd be tempted to drop Monk at 5, 8 or 12 rather than take it to 16, though that's some long term planning I don't think will matter), do you think it's worth it to take the hit on not getting it later? It'll be a while until using a weapon as a monk weapon will be better (level 11 I think), and in that time I could use two weapons. There's also the benefit that Kensei can use Deft Strike with two weapon fighting which you can't do with fists. The alternative would be archery which is good all the time, but hitting isn't usually the problem. I guess it makes it easier to use Sharpshooter. Though I guess if you're small it's less good since you'll want to go double hand crossbows instead.
shanemabus
2018-05-24, 12:43 AM
Though I guess if you're small it's less good since you'll want to go double hand crossbows instead.
Actually, the way that crossbows are written, there are no rules written for preloading a crossbow. Meaning that the only way to load it is when you take the attack action with the crossbow. Which in turn means, you also need a free hand in order to load a crossbow.
This makes hand crossbows both confusing and just bad options compared to its heavier versions. The creators realized this and created that special line in crossbow expert to make them even viable.
Crossbow expert let's you ignore the loading property of crossbows, letting you make multiple attacks with them. Then, if you make a one handed attack(namely a hand crossbow since you have to have a free hand to load it) you can make a bonus attack with the hand crossbow.
Meaning, the only time a hand crossbow is worth it is if you take crossbow expert because it gives you the option to make an extra attack over its counterparts.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Arkhios
2018-05-24, 08:29 AM
This makes hand crossbows both confusing and just bad options compared to its heavier versions. The creators realized this and created that special line in crossbow expert to make them even viable.
Note that everything doesn't exist for a mechanical benefit. There are also stylistic reasons to consider.
shanemabus
2018-05-24, 09:34 AM
Note that everything doesn't exist for a mechanical benefit. There are also stylistic reasons to consider.
That was never my point. I was addressing the issue because, as the rules are written, you can not wield two hand crossbows at the same time.
Again, unless I'm wrong.
Clearly, there are flavor weapons. Just look at the trident, scimitar, and whip.
However, with the combo of crossbow expert and sharpshooter, this would make a hand crossbow much more powerful than most other ranged weapons. This is because you get more attacks with a hand crossbow for delivering the power attack damage of sharpshooter. Combo this with the archery fighting style and many attacks of the fighter class and you have a very powerful build.
So I would argue, that with the right feats, hand crossbows are the optimal choice.:smallwink:
ZorroGames
2018-05-26, 08:12 AM
One build confuses me
Bard dip Fighter, Mountain Dwarf, ST 17 DE 8 CO 14 IN 8 WI 10 CH 15.
That, given +2 ST and +2 CO seems to total 24 points.
Points in build:
9+2 for ST. (9)
0 for DE.
4+2 for CO. (13)
0 for IN.
2 for WI. (15)
9 for CH. (24)
3 unused?
Maybe up WI or up DE/IN a bit?
Otherwise good enough it is on my AL Mountain Dwarf “must build soon” list. Go War Drummer!
PeteNutButter
2018-05-26, 10:40 AM
One build confuses me
Bard dip Fighter, Mountain Dwarf, ST 17 DE 8 CO 14 IN 8 WI 10 CH 15.
That, given +2 ST and +2 CO seems to total 24 points.
Points in build:
9+2 for ST. (9)
0 for DE.
4+2 for CO. (13)
0 for IN.
2 for WI. (15)
9 for CH. (24)
3 unused?
Maybe up WI or up DE/IN a bit?
Otherwise good enough it is on my AL Mountain Dwarf “must build soon” list. Go War Drummer!
Slap those points on Con and get a 16 to start. Otherwise you just have some more odd numbers. The MC is a bit too MAD to spare a resilient feat for wisdom, at least for a while. I'm presuming swords bard? You'll want that cha up for flourish uses.
ZorroGames
2018-05-26, 11:44 AM
Slap those points on Con and get a 16 to start. Otherwise you just have some more odd numbers. The MC is a bit too MAD to spare a resilient feat for wisdom, at least for a while. I'm presuming swords bard? You'll want that cha up for flourish uses.
Yes, Swords. Yeah, CO. Gracias.
Xihirli
2018-05-26, 12:18 PM
The Bard/Cleric multiclass states that the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard X has been rendered obsolete by Healing Spirit. Isn't the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 6 who takes Healing Spirit as a Magical Secret still one of the best healers in the game?
Miracle_Matter
2018-05-26, 01:28 PM
The Bard/Cleric multiclass states that the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard X has been rendered obsolete by Healing Spirit. Isn't the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 6 who takes Healing Spirit as a Magical Secret still one of the best healers in the game?
The thing with healing spirit is that it is so OP, lots of DMs that I met completely debuff the spell, usually to make it so that it can only be cast in combat. Also, you can't make the healing spirit go through multiple people to heal all of them at once on your turn, those people have to move into the 5ft cube on their turn. Ask your DM first and talk to him/her on what he/she thinks about the spell before equipping it and completely sucker punching all the DM's expectations, making it so that he/she could even ban the spell completely right then and there.
On another note, I think that even if the spell is debuffed, the cleric/bard(lore) multiclass is still one of the strongest healers. Other healer multiclasses that are on the same level would, in my opinion, be the cleric/sorcerer(divine soul) and the cleric/druid(shepherd). Both would probably be really fun.
ZorroGames
2018-05-28, 07:58 AM
Talking shop about D&D
I mention
“...
Triton
Paladin 6+/Swords Bard 5
16, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16
Lots of synergy here. Plenty of slots to smite with and short rest recharge blade flourishes. If you can mix in a level of hexblade the whole thing becomes SAD for cha...”
One of my DMs - “... can’t, your +1 because of Triton is Volo’s Guide...”
PeteNutButter
2018-05-28, 08:45 AM
The Bard/Cleric multiclass states that the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard X has been rendered obsolete by Healing Spirit. Isn't the Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 6 who takes Healing Spirit as a Magical Secret still one of the best healers in the game?
The bard option is still strong, it's just the entire strength of being able to pick up aura of vitality that normally isn't available until level 9 [paladin] is rendered rather pointless when a life cleric/druid can cast healing spirit at level 4. In the long run, it's not all that different, as they can both have healing spirit. The druid option just comes online much faster and is SAD as opposed to MAD. The bard option does have a good advantage in being able to wear metal armor without question.
Jrpergande78
2018-05-30, 10:41 PM
Here's a question,
How viable would a bladelock with the improved blade pact and devil's sight/gloomstalker be?
The idea I have is being able to cast darkness then summon a pact now to fire away at the baddies, I understand I'd lose two actions. Unless there's a way to use darkness as a bonus action or the pact now, I'm in a homebrew campaign and received a longbow that I made a pact bow, but I never release it so there's no need to summon it.
PeteNutButter
2018-05-31, 02:27 PM
Here's a question,
How viable would a bladelock with the improved blade pact and devil's sight/gloomstalker be?
The idea I have is being able to cast darkness then summon a pact now to fire away at the baddies, I understand I'd lose two actions. Unless there's a way to use darkness as a bonus action or the pact now, I'm in a homebrew campaign and received a longbow that I made a pact bow, but I never release it so there's no need to summon it.
I'm not sure I understand the action's you are describing. Why not just keep the bow out all the time and cast darkness with the other hand? You only need one free hand to cast. It's a bit fiddly with gloomstalker, and MAD. You want to use your first action to attack so you proc the extra attack from gloomstalker. If you are just looking for advantage on round one, assassin does the trick (providing you go first with your dex and wisdom to initiative) without the MADness in needing charisma. It'd be easier to just do fighter/warlock or pure warlock.
There are a few synergies with ranger/warlock, but you want to be aware of them all and try to maximize them to avoid gimping your build from the MADness.
quark12000
2018-05-31, 07:01 PM
How has the ruling about Shield Master altered your recommendations for multiclassing?
PeteNutButter
2018-06-01, 03:36 PM
How has the ruling about Shield Master altered your recommendations for multiclassing?
If your DM follows the ruling, then I'd probably just avoid taking the feat. It affects fighter/rogues and to a lesser extend barb/rogues, but that's about it. Those are still good classes to combine, and there are always plenty juicy feats to pick instead like sentinel.
Jrpergande78
2018-06-01, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure I understand the action's you are describing. Why not just keep the bow out all the time and cast darkness with the other hand? You only need one free hand to cast. It's a bit fiddly with gloomstalker, and MAD. You want to use your first action to attack so you proc the extra attack from gloomstalker. If you are just looking for advantage on round one, assassin does the trick (providing you go first with your dex and wisdom to initiative) without the MADness in needing charisma. It'd be easier to just do fighter/warlock or pure warlock.
There are a few synergies with ranger/warlock, but you want to be aware of them all and try to maximize them to avoid gimping your build from the MADness.
The idea is to take advantage of the Gloomstaker's first move ability on the first turn. On the next turn cast darkness on self and from that point take advantage of not being seen even in the day.
IskandarGreat
2018-06-02, 03:41 PM
Longtime GitP reader, first time commenter.
First, bravo on such a wonderfully put and detailed guide on a highly sought out and controversial subject. I'm equally impressed by your accomplishment and grateful for this source!
I skimmed the rest of the comments to make sure these wasn't already bought up, but I noticed a something I thought worth mentioning.
Since you mentioned using AL lass a baseline (and this is a particularly important thing for multiclassing), I couldn't help but notice that some of the examples you mention break the PHB + 1 rule for character creation.
Random Examples:
"Half Elf
Hexblade 5/Death Cleric 6+
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17"
Since Hexblade is XGtE, and Death Cleric is DMG, they cannot be combined (according to AL).
Even cantrips cannot cross the threshold:
"Human
Forge Cleric 8/War Wizard 2
16, 9, 14, 13, 16, 9
This build is a MADness struggle, but it isn't without it's perks. Booming Blade with a decent str score and the divine strike damage give it at decent at will melee capability..."
While both Forge cleric and War Wizard are XGtE, according to PHB + 1, no build can have access to BB or GFB if any part of their build comes from anything outside PHB + SCAG (if playing AL).
BB and GFB are incredible for many builds, but by AL, most cannot access it. This is especially important if you're building a Sorcadin. If you want BB/GFB both your Oath and Bloodline must come from PHB or SCAG.
I myself was very disappointed when I bought my
"Human V.
Fighter 1/Forge Cleric 6+
16, 10, 14, 8, 16, 8
Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade" - Melee Cleric to the table only to have the PHB + 1 rule pointed out.
I ended up switching it to:
"Human V.
Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric 6+
16, 8, 14, 8, 14, 13
Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade"
And still, while both classes are PHB, just having the cantrips from SCAG bar me from having any spells from XGtE or EE (according to AL).
Um.. I've rambled so much that I actually have no idea how to close this. I guess, if you're playing AL this is big, and if not then it's nothing.
Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
The end.
Jrpergande78
2018-06-02, 04:04 PM
What is AL?
Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Never mind, I googled it.
PeteNutButter
2018-06-03, 12:27 AM
Longtime GitP reader, first time commenter.
First, bravo on such a wonderfully put and detailed guide on a highly sought out and controversial subject. I'm equally impressed by your accomplishment and grateful for this source!
I skimmed the rest of the comments to make sure these wasn't already bought up, but I noticed a something I thought worth mentioning.
Since you mentioned using AL lass a baseline (and this is a particularly important thing for multiclassing), I couldn't help but notice that some of the examples you mention break the PHB + 1 rule for character creation.
Random Examples:
"Half Elf
Hexblade 5/Death Cleric 6+
8, 14, 14, 9, 14, 17"
Since Hexblade is XGtE, and Death Cleric is DMG, they cannot be combined (according to AL).
Even cantrips cannot cross the threshold:
"Human
Forge Cleric 8/War Wizard 2
16, 9, 14, 13, 16, 9
This build is a MADness struggle, but it isn't without it's perks. Booming Blade with a decent str score and the divine strike damage give it at decent at will melee capability..."
While both Forge cleric and War Wizard are XGtE, according to PHB + 1, no build can have access to BB or GFB if any part of their build comes from anything outside PHB + SCAG (if playing AL).
BB and GFB are incredible for many builds, but by AL, most cannot access it. This is especially important if you're building a Sorcadin. If you want BB/GFB both your Oath and Bloodline must come from PHB or SCAG.
I myself was very disappointed when I bought my
"Human V.
Fighter 1/Forge Cleric 6+
16, 10, 14, 8, 16, 8
Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade" - Melee Cleric to the table only to have the PHB + 1 rule pointed out.
I ended up switching it to:
"Human V.
Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric 6+
16, 8, 14, 8, 14, 13
Lvl 1 feat: Magical Adept - Find Familiar (free advantage on attack roles), Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade"
And still, while both classes are PHB, just having the cantrips from SCAG bar me from having any spells from XGtE or EE (according to AL).
Um.. I've rambled so much that I actually have no idea how to close this. I guess, if you're playing AL this is big, and if not then it's nothing.
Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
The end.
Good catch. I ended up using a lot of different things just to keep the variety going. You can only make so many variant humans...
The Death Cleric one is a unique issue though as you cannot normally use the death cleric and need either a cert or a DM quest, neither would prevent you from using a different book as your +1.
As you've found in your own case, there is usually a similar and equally strong option available in the PHB so you can get the best thing you want out of the build. I still dislike the +1 rule, but it can be worked around.
The idea is to take advantage of the Gloomstaker's first move ability on the first turn. On the next turn cast darkness on self and from that point take advantage of not being seen even in the day.
Hmm. It could work. Looks to be a case of combining two strong things that don't work together in any special way. Gloomstalker has no interaction with the darkness spell since normal darkvison can't see through it anyways. It'd be easier to just skip ranger and go fighter.
IskandarGreat
2018-06-03, 03:14 AM
The Death Cleric one is a unique issue though as you cannot normally use the death cleric and need either a cert or a DM quest, neither would prevent you from using a different book as your +1.
I had no idea. I'm still pretty new to 5e. (Just started my second campaign. Haven't played anything since late 3.5, early Pathfinder)I haven't had a desire to try anything from the DMG, nor known those who have. Just thought it was another resource book.
As you've found in your own case, there is usually a similar and equally strong option available in the PHB so you can get the best thing you want out of the build.
I hate that you're mostly right about this.
I still dislike the +1 rule, but it can be worked around.
From what I've been made to understand, the reason for it is that when coming out with new material, they only balance it against the PHB, and not other source books. So while they're all supposedly balanced with PHB, they're not necessarily balanced with each other, and people like us will play Frankenstein until we've created a monster.
I too greatly dislike the PHB +1 rule , but I get why they do it, I guess, grudgingly.
Armored Walrus
2018-06-03, 09:41 AM
people like us will play Frankenstein until we've created a monster.
They aren't wrong ;)
Sir Stig
2018-06-13, 08:31 AM
Hi, I am new here. I am sorry if this is the wrong place to post character concept. If it is, you can give your thoughts about the multiclass combination, and disregard the fluff.
I just started playing D&D after 20 years pause, and as an old powerplayer, I started looking for ways to customize a premade Halfling Rogue (we were 5 players, not much time to create one from scratch).
Even though I emphasize roleplaying opportunities, I would like feedback if this build can also work strategically.
This is what I envision:
Cold Facts:
Main Class: Rogue - Scout, Mastermind or Swashbuckler (which of these would fit best?)
3 Warlock - GOO and Pact of the blade (GFB to boost damage)
3 Fighter - Eldritch Knight to get multiclass spell table lvl 4 (4xlvl 1 spells and 3xlvl 2 spells+ pact magic and invocations). Second Wind, Defense and Action Surge will all help the rogue survive and deal extra damage.
Bonus: I will have one Pact Weapon and 2 Bound Weapons available, perfect for a sneaky halfling infiltrator.
Option to take either fighter(extra attack) or warlock(thirsting blade) to 5th in order to get 2 attacks (Mastermind grants one extra attack at lvl 17 Rogue, but I may never get that far).
At Lvl 20 total I will have something like: Deceptive Rogue 12/Bladepact Warlock 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (4/3/3 spell slots + Pact Magic and invocations)
RPG aspect:
The rogue was attempted murdered (Glasstaff, no spoilers please), and I intend to play out the warlock gradually (puking leeches and such). I imagine he was in limbo/bardo and by some disturbance of the planes, he was tainted by the GOO. I hope to get a chance to use Arms of Hadar for revealing my warlock lvl. Thoughts about Warlock spells: (Infestation), Mind Spike, Hex, Devils sight.
If he gets too OP, he can go corrupt and get drawn into another dimension (taking an enemy with him ofc..)
PeteNutButter
2018-06-13, 09:12 AM
Hi, I am new here. I am sorry if this is the wrong place to post character concept. If it is, you can give your thoughts about the multiclass combination, and disregard the fluff.
I just started playing D&D after 20 years pause, and as an old powerplayer, I started looking for ways to customize a premade Halfling Rogue (we were 5 players, not much time to create one from scratch).
Even though I emphasize roleplaying opportunities, I would like feedback if this build can also work strategically.
This is what I envision:
Cold Facts:
Main Class: Rogue - Scout, Mastermind or Swashbuckler (which of these would fit best?)
3 Warlock - GOO and Pact of the blade (GFB to boost damage)
3 Fighter - Eldritch Knight to get multiclass spell table lvl 4 (4xlvl 1 spells and 3xlvl 2 spells+ pact magic and invocations). Second Wind, Defense and Action Surge will all help the rogue survive and deal extra damage.
Bonus: I will have one Pact Weapon and 2 Bound Weapons available, perfect for a sneaky halfling infiltrator.
Option to take either fighter(extra attack) or warlock(thirsting blade) to 5th in order to get 2 attacks (Mastermind grants one extra attack at lvl 17 Rogue, but I may never get that far).
At Lvl 20 total I will have something like: Deceptive Rogue 12/Bladepact Warlock 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (4/3/3 spell slots + Pact Magic and invocations)
RPG aspect:
The rogue was attempted murdered (Glasstaff, no spoilers please), and I intend to play out the warlock gradually (puking leeches and such). I imagine he was in limbo/bardo and by some disturbance of the planes, he was tainted by the GOO. I hope to get a chance to use Arms of Hadar for revealing my warlock lvl. Thoughts about Warlock spells: (Infestation), Mind Spike, Hex, Devils sight.
If he gets too OP, he can go corrupt and get drawn into another dimension (taking an enemy with him ofc..)
Probably best if you start a new thread for a specific character idea.
From an optimization standpoint, battle master is usually a chase fighter subclass for rogue MCs as Riposte allows a character to sneak attack twice a round (once on your turn, and once on another person's turn). Of the mentioned subclasses for rogue, swashbuckler is probably the best. If you really want some long rest spells you'd probably be best to do arcane trickster and take the fighter levels as battle master.
RickAsWritten
2018-06-13, 09:35 AM
3 Warlock - GOO and Pact of the blade (GFB to boost damage)
3 Fighter - Eldritch Knight to get multiclass spell table lvl 4 (4xlvl 1 spells and 3xlvl 2 spells+ pact magic and invocations). Second Wind, Defense and Action Surge will all help the rogue survive and deal extra damage.
Bonus: I will have one Pact Weapon and 2 Bound Weapons available, perfect for a sneaky halfling infiltrator.
Option to take either fighter(extra attack) or warlock(thirsting blade) to 5th in order to get 2 attacks (Mastermind grants one extra attack at lvl 17 Rogue, but I may never get that far).
At Lvl 20 total I will have something like: Deceptive Rogue 12/Bladepact Warlock 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (4/3/3 spell slots + Pact Magic and invocations)
RPG aspect:
The rogue was attempted murdered (Glasstaff, no spoilers please), and I intend to play out the warlock gradually (puking leeches and such). I imagine he was in limbo/bardo and by some disturbance of the planes, he was tainted by the GOO. I hope to get a chance to use Arms of Hadar for revealing my warlock lvl. Thoughts about Warlock spells: (Infestation), Mind Spike, Hex, Devils sight.
If he gets too OP, he can go corrupt and get drawn into another dimension (taking an enemy with him ofc..)
Pact Magic and the Spellcasting feature don't stack. Three levels in Eldritch Knight will only net you 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spell slots that recharge on a Long Rest. So with that Level 20 build your spellslots will be 2(LR)/-/2(SR).
If you go with Arcane Trickster as suggested by Pete, then you will be able to hit that spell casting mark(level 5 combined spellcaster).
Sir Stig
2018-06-13, 01:54 PM
Pact Magic and the Spellcasting feature don't stack. Three levels in Eldritch Knight will only net you 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spell slots that recharge on a Long Rest. So with that Level 20 build your spellslots will be 2(LR)/-/2(SR).
If you go with Arcane Trickster as suggested by Pete, then you will be able to hit that spell casting mark(level 5 combined spellcaster).
Aha! I missed a beat.
He is high on Dex and Cha, medium INT, so the arcane trickster is meh...
Back to the think tank. I think I might as well start a new thread when I refine the concept, since my brilliant idea had holes in it :) Thank you (and Pete) for your input.
Sigreid
2018-06-13, 02:23 PM
Well you could always start a new thread and reserve more posts for yourself.
Why would monks be duellist? They can't even use a shield so there's no reason not to use two weapons no? And if they were wielding a single weapon well it'd be a heavy one not a one hander.
Wouldn't two weapon fighting be the classic monk? Two fists afterall.
It's in the text that monk weapons can be whatever the DM will allow. So, DM willing a monk swashbuckler (open fist most likely) can have unarmored defense, high resistance to all magic, a rapier, fisticuffs, and amazing physical stunts all in one package.
shanemabus
2018-06-14, 11:49 AM
I was reading the warlock guides and thought of a build for the rogue dip for a warlock main.
I think as it stands, the color for the build is fine, but I think a 3 lvl dip for swashbuckler is worth mentioning.
It allows the player to add their charisma modifier to initiative, mixing with the high dex a rogue requires gives the player a pretty good initiative, plus almost all warlocks require maxing charisma. Additionally, swashbuckler gives extra conditions for using sneak attack, and anyone you hit with a melee attack can't make an AoO against you, all at lvl 3 rogue.
Although, this slows warlock pretty heavily, a halfelf 3/swashbuckler 1/warlock would have a +6 initiative and deal 3D6 with either a shortsword or short bow.
The best part though, you can choose any patron or boon and this would still work well. Although, I find archfey, fiend, and hexblade to be the most powerful. Archfey for charm and greater invisibility, and fiend and hexblade for damage and survivability.
Needless to say, I still think the color is appropriate, but maybe a mention to the synergy of swashbuckler?
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