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View Full Version : Alignment of Self-Beneficial Indirect Assistance?



~xFellWardenx~
2016-09-30, 09:40 PM
So, to simplify, there are two factions of divine beings, the Deva and the Asura. The Devas are the ostensible good guys, the Asura the ostensible bad guys. The reality of the universe is more complex, both in terms of morality and their representation as "factions of divine beings," but it's close enough to the truth for the question I have.

The Asuras, knowing that the Devas are by nature supposed to act benevolently towards humans, are trying to draw the Devas out of their realm for a fight by attacking humanity. The Devas, not wanting to fight the Asuras, instead elected to give righteous people portions of their power to defend the rest of humanity with while staying safely sequestered in their dimension, which the Asuras can't touch.

So while singular decisions don't necessarily determine alignment, where does this push them towards on the alignment spectrum? I'm leaning towards Neutral - I'm not sure it's Evil since they're sacrificing something tangible and significant to help humanity, but I'm not sure it's Good because they're letting humanity fight a battle that many would consider theirs to fight. But what do you guys think?

Zaydos
2016-09-30, 09:42 PM
3 questions:

What do the Devas believe their chances of winning if they fight directly?

What do the Devas think the Asuras do to the humans if they do kill the Devas?

What do the Devas believe would the collateral damage be in a direct fight?

~xFellWardenx~
2016-09-30, 10:48 PM
What do the Devas believe their chances of winning if they fight directly?
Nominally 50:50, but there are too many variables to be sure, especially since they're assuming the Asuras have some hidden advantage, if only because they would've started attacking a long time ago if they were confident in a fair win.


What do the Devas think the Asuras do to the humans if they do kill the Devas?
Not much directly, the Asuras don't care about humans except in how they can use them to hurt the Devas. However, without the Devas around, nobody will be purifying the universe and keeping things in alignment. The souls of those in Hell will cross back over all at once without reincarnating properly, the cycle of reincarnation everyone else has will break, life will start to deteriorate and become indistinguishable from death, and there will be no way for anybody to transcend the reincarnation cycle (since it's broken). And that's just the predictable effects. Basically, it'll suck without any discernible means to make it suck less ever again. At least according to the propaganda.


What do the Devas believe would the collateral damage be in a direct fight?
Way too many variables to predict with any accuracy. They don't even necessarily have to fight on Earth, so it could be none. It could also be on the scale of a planet-wide natural disaster... Civilization and most animal species would likely limp through with wounds to lick for the next several generations, but it wouldn't be pretty. Then again, there isn't necessarily going to be especially less collateral leaving it to the humans if they manage to raise enough resistance to dissuade the Asuras from weakening themselves in the fight. (Since, of course, the Asuras can't go for broke on the humans if that will mean not being strong enough to fight the Devas after.)

Zaydos
2016-09-30, 11:00 PM
Nominally 50:50, but there are too many variables to be sure, especially since they're assuming the Asuras have some hidden advantage, if only because they would've started attacking a long time ago if they were confident in a fair win.

This is important. Walking into an obvious trap is not Good it's stupid.


Not much directly, the Asuras don't care about humans except in how they can use them to hurt the Devas. However, without the Devas around, nobody will be purifying the universe and keeping things in alignment. The souls of those in Hell will cross back over all at once without reincarnating properly, the cycle of reincarnation everyone else has will break, life will start to deteriorate and become indistinguishable from death, and there will be no way for anybody to transcend the reincarnation cycle (since it's broken). And that's just the predictable effects. Basically, it'll suck without any discernible means to make it suck less ever again. At least according to the propaganda.

So if they walk into the obvious trap not only will they not help the humans they will break it worse for them.


Way too many variables to predict with any accuracy. They don't even necessarily have to fight on Earth, so it could be none. It could also be on the scale of a planet-wide natural disaster... Civilization and most animal species would likely limp through with wounds to lick for the next several generations, but it wouldn't be pretty. Then again, there isn't necessarily going to be especially less collateral leaving it to the humans if they manage to raise enough resistance to dissuade the Asuras from weakening themselves in the fight. (Since, of course, the Asuras can't go for broke on the humans if that will mean not being strong enough to fight the Devas after.)

Given the above two answers this one is actually moot.

This does move us to the next question: Why should they care about helping humans in the first place? I mean Neutral is 'I won't hurt you, but I won't risk myself to help you', the Asura are definitely expecting the Good aligned response otherwise they're just wasting resources, the Devas responded cautiously but still by an act of self-sacrifice. Assuming they don't have some heavy sense of obligation towards humans in the first place this would point towards it being Good just not stupid.

Even ignoring it, given the above answers letting the humans fight the battle protects the humans better than fighting it themselves, which would put it in... well again their reasons for not just letting humans die matter (Is it because they believe in the sanctity of all life? Is it because they feel responsible? Is it because it will help them defeat their enemies?).

~xFellWardenx~
2016-09-30, 11:34 PM
Well, reincarnation into the mortal world will also stop if all life on Earth is wiped out (since nothing will be around to give birth to the reincarnated souls' bodies), which is the Asuras' intended result if the Devas don't come out to stop them. So that's all of humanity that will kind of just be stuck oscillating between (the equivalent of) Heaven and Hell forever, neither of which are exactly pleasant places, unable to ever transcend past reincarnation. The souls of humanity are in dire straits no matter what if the result isn't "we beat back the Asuras," and the Devas' 50:50 chance is much higher than humanity's current chance of putting up a meaningful fight. Sorry if I didn't make it clear that "humanity loses without Deva intervention" is still as bad an outcome (for humanity) as if the Devas come to help but lose.

Zaydos
2016-09-30, 11:57 PM
No I assumed humanity was taking the beating if the Devas did absolutely nothing, but they are intervening just not directly coming out.

The three options as presented are:

Devas do nothing: Humanity loses.

Devas directly intervene: Humanity loses.

Devas aid without directly intervening: Humanity has the best chance.

Doing what has the highest chance of saving humanity is the most Good option.

Can't say whether it is also the option most likely followed by other alignments without knowing whether letting humanity die would inconvenience the Devas in some way, or whether it's the best way to beat their enemies, just that assuming 100% Good aligned it's the course of action to go to.

LibraryOgre
2016-10-01, 09:38 AM
Largely agree with Zaydos... they are taking concrete action to better the lives of others. They are protecting their own lives while doing so, yes, but that also has the long-term effect of making sure they are there to continue to render aid.

There are ways this can backfire, but on its face, it's a solid, good, plan.