Battle Sorceror Vs Stalwart Sorceror

[YuweaCurtis]

So it seems to me Unearthed Arcana's Battle Sorceror is much better than Complete Mage's Stalwart Sorceror. Is there something I'm missing? Is the Battle Sorceror too good and I should just use Stalwart?

Also any other random opinions about the other ACF in Unearthed Arcana are welcome, as I'll probably deal with them sometime in the future.

[weckar]

Problem with Battle Sorcerer is that if you take a prestige class, spells gained through that prc (even if they advance sorcerer casting) can't be cast in armor.

Honestly neither is great, as the sorcerer tends to be short on spells known as is. If you are considering either of these options, odds are you're better off going with one of the fixed-list caster classes - who as far as I know can all cast at least in light armor.

[YuweaCurtis]

Problem with Battle Sorcerer is that if you take a prestige class, spells gained through that prc (even if they advance sorcerer casting) can't be cast in armor.

Honestly neither is great, as the sorcerer tends to be short on spells known as is. If you are considering either of these options, odds are you're better off going with one of the fixed-list caster classes - who as far as I know can all cast at least in light armor.

Well with that in mind, I will tell you what I was playing on doing with it. A Sorceror / Incarnate multiclass into Soulcaster. Honestly I'm not too worried about the armor, its for the martial weapon proficiency mostly. And the extra HP helps as well.

[Extra Anchovies]

Battle Sorcerer is awesome. It's the buff-based gish in a can to the Duskblade's channel-based gish in a can. Assuming it's actually built as a gish and not just a sorcerer with fewer spells known, I'd put it among the better classes in the T3 range. It's less versatile than a Bard but still definitely good at one thing (hitting people until they die) in a way that's fairly adaptable (using different buffs against different enemies), with some extra stuff on the side (you can easily afford some utility spells, especially with DragComp's bloodline feats or a Sand Shaper dip).

Stalwart Sorcerer is an odd duck. You lose one spell known of your highest level for one MWP and two Improved Toughness. Overall I'd say it's worth considering if you're concerned about having low HP.

What's really great, though, is the Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Because of the minimum 1 spell known of each level, Stalwart only costs you a spell known at levels 3 and 20, so it's virtually free on top of Battle Sorcerer.

[Fizban]

Problem with Battle Sorcerer is that if you take a prestige class, spells gained through that prc (even if they advance sorcerer casting) can't be cast in armor.
Wut? No, classes that advance your previous spellcasting don't somehow add restrictions (unless they actually do, like Incantatrix or something). Try telling that to a Bard or Warmage.

The reason you don't PrC with Battle Sorcerer or Stalwart Sorcerer is that the main benefit of those ACFs is the increased hit points/BAB, and prestige classes use their own HD/BAB. Obviously some will have less loss, but usually a PrC that gives the same HD/BAB is also losing casting levels, so you might as well stick with straight Battle/Stalwart.

[darksolitaire]

Problem with Battle Sorcerer is that if you take a prestige class, spells gained through that prc (even if they advance sorcerer casting) can't be cast in armor.

[citation needed]

Edit: huh, I read the spellcasting entry and the logic is there. Bad logic, mind you.

[weckar]

Wut? No, classes that advance your previous spellcasting don't somehow add restrictions (unless they actually do, like Incantatrix or something). Try telling that to a Bard or Warmage.

Well....

A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. Seems pretty rock solid to me that if you didn't gain the spell when you took a level in battle sorcerer, you don't get to cast it in light armor.

Note class levels, not caster levels or character levels. It is an ability that works like any other that is class level limited in that PrCs don't do nothing for it.

[Fizban]

Prestige classes that continue spellcasting don't give you any spellcasting (there are in fact some you can enter without spellcasting at all, in which case you don't get any). All they do is give you virtual levels that are added on to your original class. All your spellcasting is from levels of Battle Sorc. Alternatively, go with specific trumps general: the prestige class is more specific than the base class, and will always say "as if he had also gained a level in whatever." So no.

[weckar]

I suppose we're not arguing the law here, so I respect your reading and interpretation. Wouldn't fly at my table, though.

[Thurbane]

How would this interact with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion?

[Fizban]

Which "this?" If you mean weckar's ruling, he's decided that the shortcut language used in Battle Sorcerer means it's wholly unique in that only spellcasting gained at levels where you take Battle Sorc can be cast in armor. What happens if you exit the PrC and return to Battle Sorc I wonder? If that sounds antagonistic, well I cannot respect that reading any more than I can the one that other guy was trying to use to turn Scrying Shards into Crystal Balls. It ignores standard reading, logic, and precedent in order to produce a detrimental result, and I feel bad for any players that would have to deal with it. As such you now have three responses: convince me you're right, give in to my guilt trip, or accept that there's someone on the internet who looks poorly upon you :smallyuk:

If by this you mean Battle Sorc and Stalwart Sorc themselves Thurbane, mostly the same as any other PrC, except Stalwart Sorc will get to apply their +2hp per level on those class feature levels. So with Legacy Champion they're actually rocking an effective d12 hit die, at the cost of being a Legacy Champion and losing two caster levels. Better to stack the ACFs for Stalwart Battle Sorc and eat the extra spell known loss, which is arguably shifted down as previously mentioned.

[AnachroNinja]

I've got to go with the negative side I think. If it had said "spells derived from battle sorcerer spell casting" I would have agreed that PRCs work. It's specific statement about being derived from class levels though, that's a whole different thing. No matter how you twist the wording of PRCs spell casting advancment, those spells are NOT derived from battle sorcerer class LEVELS. Especially since you are always noted to not gain any other benefits of leveling up in that class.

It honestly seems pretty clear. I wouldn't oppose a house rule to amend it, but it would definitely be a house rule.

[ace rooster]

I've got to go with the negative side I think. If it had said "spells derived from battle sorcerer spell casting" I would have agreed that PRCs work. It's specific statement about being derived from class levels though, that's a whole different thing. No matter how you twist the wording of PRCs spell casting advancment, those spells are NOT derived from battle sorcerer class LEVELS. Especially since you are always noted to not gain any other benefits of leveling up in that class.

It honestly seems pretty clear. I wouldn't oppose a house rule to amend it, but it would definitely be a house rule.

This definitely seems a harsh ruling, particularly how it interacts with bard (or warmage I assume, away from books).



A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

This text is not in the spellcasting section of the description, so PRCs don't get this. Where all PRCs say 'as though', they are not actually giving bard spellcasting. The spells recieved are therefore 'recieved from other classes', and so the bard armoured spellcasting doesn't apply.

I would call it a bugfix, rather than a houserule.

[Fizban]

A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
This text is not in the spellcasting section of the description, so PRCs don't get this. Where all PRCs say 'as though', they are not actually giving bard spellcasting. The spells recieved are therefore 'recieved from other classes', and so the bard armoured spellcasting doesn't apply.
That line is also missing from the Battle Sorcerer description, which is why I called it a shortcut phrasing and made the same Bard/Warmage comparison. Other armored casters specify this ability in their armor proficiency or an "armored mage" ability, but Battle Sorcerer is a variant from before they standardized any formats for such variants or ACFs. It adds the armored casting ability as a modification of the spellcasting section, because that's the natural place to think of it since it's the biggest change to the original class. In this context, "class levels of battle sorcerer" clearly means the same thing as it does for Bards or Warmages or any other armored caster, that your armored casting doesn't apply to other classes. It's phrased concisely because it's a variant and they expect you to get the idea, without needing an exhaustive recap of how armor and multiclassing work.

[AnachroNinja]

Spells you acquire from a PRC added on bard are still bard spells rather then spells acquired from another class or spell list.

Spells acquired from a PRC on battle sorcerer are *not* spells acquired from battle sorcerer class levels.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that it is not screwy or that you shouldn't change that. But it honestly does seem to be exactly what it actually says. I don't generally speculate on intent so I'm not going to say what they clearly meant to say or anything. It does, in my opinion, prevent you from ignoring ASF in armor if you gain spells via any class other then battle sorcerer though. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my read in it.

[Fizban]

Just look at those two sentences. The only difference is that you're making the Battle Sorcerer different. What makes bard+PrC different from BS+PrC? If PrC advanced casting was actually different then Bard would fail the same way for casting spells "recieved from other classes." It's not different. It is a specific feature of PrC advanced spellcasting that it works exactly the same as if you had taken more levels of your original class.

No one ever has an actual response to this. The prestige class tells you how it's casting advancement works. It works the same as if you had taken more levels in your original class. This is a specific effect of PrC casting advancement. You are trying to say that the Battle Sorc's general rule about armored casting only applying to it's Battle Sorc spells somehow overrides the specific rule that the prestige class advancement works exactly the same as normal advancement. This makes no sense. When you think backwards you get backwards results.. The basic requirement of any rule based system is that specific trumps general, and every time someone goes in backwards like this their only justification is a flat refusal to acknowledge that they've gone in backwards.

You want an almost useable argument? You should be arguing that the Battle Sorc's armored casting is an "other benefit" which is tracked for every level gained and is not progressed by PrCs, like a Familiar or Turn Undead. Of course this argument would still fail because it's not a separately tracked other benefit, it's a basic function of their spellcasting listed under spellcasting as something that always applies, but at least it would pass the first and most basic logical test leaving a categorical error rather than a refusal to logic error :smallfurious:

[Jormengand]

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Spells gained from prestige class levels are spells gained from battle sorcerer levels.

That, and battle sorcerer already sucks hard enough compared to sorcerer that making that ruling is unnecessary. Also also, the idea of some of your 7th-level battle sorcerer spells suffering ASF and others not doing so is ridiculous.

[Soranar]

Actually there is one particular instance where a stalwart sorcerer is clearly superior to a battle sorcerer:

-if you're undead you still get the unnamed +2 hitpoint bonus from stalwart while you only gain BAB from the battle sorcerer

[weckar]

Please, show me one other ability where specifically advancement by class level is pointed out that DOES still advance by taking PrC's (excl. Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion) and we can talk.

Fact that helps this is that it is rather unambiguous when a sorcerer learns a specific spell and from what source. Not like a wizard who has a myriad of ways to randomly gain and re-order spells.

[Jormengand]

Please, show me one other ability where specifically advancement by class level is pointed out that DOES still advance by taking PrC's (excl. Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion) and we can talk.

Sure: the sorcerer's "Spells" class feature:


A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known.

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Similarly...


A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

You aren't seriously going to argue that (battle) sorcerer levels and levels of battle sorcerer are any different?

[prufock]

Well....
Seems pretty rock solid to me that if you didn't gain the spell when you took a level in battle sorcerer, you don't get to cast it in light armor.

Most PrC classes have the following language (or similar):

you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
If the spells gained from the PrC are granted as if you gained a level in battle sorcerer, the transitive property should apply.

[Deophaun]

Problem with Battle Sorcerer is that if you take a prestige class, spells gained through that prc (even if they advance sorcerer casting) can't be cast in armor.
Let's just take that at face value: why is that a problem? At the time you can prestige out, you can probably afford a twilight mithril chain shirt. Armored casting is really only valuable in the early levels. After that, it quickly becomes irrelevant, especially for AC-focused builds.

[weckar]

Hmmm, you all make a fair point. Apologies for derailing the thread with this.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Stalwart Sorc is the better of the two. You lose only one spell known, and it doesn't "move up the ladder" to your highest spell level until you would get 2 known there. For that one small cost, you get +2 hp per level, which means on average, you have the hp of a cleric of the same Constitution.

Battle Sorc gives medium BAB and the same average hp as stalwart plus some proficiencies and light armor casting. But...melee is vastly inferior to spells and it's pitifully easy to get 0% spell failure on gear already (mithral, twilight property, spellsword dip...) and for what you gain, you lose a LOT of spells.

But the thing is...why not both? Together, Battle Sorc's gimped spell progression means you won't have 2 spells known of a spell level for even longer, so the hit from Stalwart is even less of a pain. For example, your lost spell known from Stalwart won't affect 3rd level spells known until you're level 9.
You can use bloodline feats (the dragon mag ones that give a specific spell known at each level 1-9), runestaves, and such to make up for the lost known spells.

[Flickerdart]

The worst part about either ACF is their benefits don't apply to non-sorcerer levels...but their drawbacks do, because you are gimping your spell progression, which is advanced by the PrCs you want to take.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The worst part about either ACF is their benefits don't apply to non-sorcerer levels...but their drawbacks do, because you are gimping your spell progression, which is advanced by the PrCs you want to take.

Agreed. So usually both are bad b/c you're a fool to not PrC out.
In my games, I instituted a rule that a caster PrC, unless it's really not any or barely better than the base class when factoring in onerous entry requirements...costs you a min. 1 spell level progression somewhere. Usually it wouldn't advance it at 1st level of the PrC. If the entry is such that it's impossible to enter w/o losing a CL to multiclassing, then full progression is fine.
So casters have a good reason to stick w/ their base class.

[Thurbane]

You can use bloodline feats (the dragon mag ones that give a specific spell known at each level 1-9), runestaves, and such to make up for the lost known spells.

And Knowstones, if Dragon Magazine is allowed.

[Troacctid]

And Knowstones, if Dragon Magazine is allowed.
Ideally you're a Warforged and you can use Wand Bonding with a giant stash of partially-charged wands!