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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next I think I fixed the theurge



Squiddish
2016-10-01, 06:22 PM
So, the theurgy arcane tradition as introduced by the "The Faithful" UA is fun and interesting, but becomes utterly broken at 14th level (For those of you who haven't seen it, it's found here: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/faithful ).
So, I've discovered a way to fix it. Replace the given 14th level benefit (Arcane High Priest) with this one:

Divine Readiness:
Starting at 14th level, your domain spells are always prepared and do not count against your max number of prepared spells.

Thoughts? Is it balanced? In particular, should it just be domain spells or should it extend to all cleric spells? Can someone think of a better name?

SharkForce
2016-10-02, 12:33 PM
the level 14 ability is not the broken part of the theurge (that is, none of the level 18 cleric abilities break the game, even when given out at level 14. it is somewhat distasteful, but not broken).

and no, it isn't more balanced to give the wizard an extra 10 prepared spells.

Squiddish
2016-10-02, 02:15 PM
the level 14 ability is not the broken part of the theurge (that is, none of the level 18 cleric abilities break the game, even when given out at level 14. it is somewhat distasteful, but not broken).

and no, it isn't more balanced to give the wizard an extra 10 prepared spells.

Really? So free, infinite flight at level 14 isn't broken? And neither is resistance to all nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing? And neither is the ability to enforce disadvantage on all saving throws against fire spells? (Seriously, please give me a reason. I actually really want to be able to use it as written, so if you can give me a good enough reason to tell my DM it will make my character so much more fun to play)

And remember, this isn't any ten spells, this is a particular set of ten spells decided by your domain. However, especially with arcana domain, this doesn't mean much, so I may have to reduce this a bit.

SharkForce
2016-10-02, 07:53 PM
it isn't particularly more of a balance problem at level 14 than it is at 18. yeah, they can be pretty nice abilities. no, they don't break the system in two. free infinite flight is available to dragon sorcerers at level 14. resistance to weapon damage is available in a better form from barbarian (yeah, i know, not infinite use. who cares. you get enough uses that it is probably there when you need it anyways, plus it also works against magic weapons which the cleric version is not).

however, just to be clear, i'm not saying that the theurge is balanced. i'm saying that the level 14 ability is not any more broken than it would have been as a level 18 cleric ability. theurge is definitely not balanced. a +2 save DC increase is hilariously overpowered for one thing, and if you do reach level 14 i'd be far more worried about *that* causing horrible problems than disadvantage on saves against fireball.

Squiddish
2016-10-03, 05:47 PM
So how do we make my idea more balanced?

Secret Wizard
2016-10-03, 05:58 PM
How about making the Wizard gain 2 uses of Channel Arcana at 14th, and the ability to spend one use to gain the 17th level Cleric Domain Power for 1 minute?

DracoKnight
2016-10-03, 07:10 PM
How about making the Wizard gain 2 uses of Channel Arcana at 14th, and the ability to spend one use to gain the 17th level Cleric Domain Power for 1 minute?

It's not those abilities that break the Theurge.

Squiddish
2016-10-05, 07:38 AM
It's not those abilities that break the Theurge.

Then what is it? People keep saying this without giving any info.

DracoKnight
2016-10-05, 12:27 PM
Then what is it? People keep saying this without giving any info.

People are generally upset about the Channel Arcana giving a +2 to your Save DC. Personally I don't care, and the theurge has been allowed in my games since it came out. It hasn't been outperforming the Cleric, and everything's been fine thus far.

Ze_Azrael
2016-10-05, 01:47 PM
As pointed out, Channel Arcana and the 14th level feature combine to leave some people with a bad taste in their mouth. I personally agree with DracoKnight and don't think CA it's that big a deal, but then again I haven't seen it in play.
I do think the 14th level giving out the Clerics 'domain capstone' earlier is bad form however.

Going off your idea, I just thought of a possible replacement for CA... Allow to cast any spell in your book (without expending a slot?) regardless if you have it prepared or not? I don't know, haven't really thought much about the ramifications of this but just an idea...

As for giving them 10 always known spells I'm kinda wary about... Perhaps giving them half (one of each level) would be more balanced but it's a fairly underwhelming capstone, at least in feel. I prefer Secret Wizard's idea of expanding the use of CA to letting them gain the cleric capstone for a set time.

Squiddish
2016-10-05, 05:31 PM
How about making the Wizard gain 2 uses of Channel Arcana at 14th, and the ability to spend one use to gain the 17th level Cleric Domain Power for 1 minute?


As pointed out, Channel Arcana and the 14th level feature combine to leave some people with a bad taste in their mouth. I personally agree with DracoKnight and don't think CA it's that big a deal, but then again I haven't seen it in play.
I do think the 14th level giving out the Clerics 'domain capstone' earlier is bad form however.

Going off your idea, I just thought of a possible replacement for CA... Allow to cast any spell in your book (without expending a slot?) regardless if you have it prepared or not? I don't know, haven't really thought much about the ramifications of this but just an idea...

As for giving them 10 always known spells I'm kinda wary about... Perhaps giving them half (one of each level) would be more balanced but it's a fairly underwhelming capstone, at least in feel. I prefer Secret Wizard's idea of expanding the use of CA to letting them gain the cleric capstone for a set time.

Okay, so we now have two options:

Channel Arcana: Godly Mind:
As a bonus action you speak a prayer to expand your arcane abilities. You can now cast one of your known spells even if you do not have it prepared.

This replaces Divine Arcana.

Channel Arcana: Soul of Arcana
Starting at Level 14 you can use a bonus action to temporarily gain great power. For the next minute you have full use of the 17th level feature of your cleric domain.

SharkForce
2016-10-07, 11:47 PM
People are generally upset about the Channel Arcana giving a +2 to your Save DC. Personally I don't care, and the theurge has been allowed in my games since it came out. It hasn't been outperforming the Cleric, and everything's been fine thus far.

it's an absolutely ridiculous boost that potentially violates a core principle of the game (bounded accuracy) by creating situations where, with well-chosen spells that target an enemy's weakness, an enemy can have literally no chance to succeed on a roll (specifically, a saving throw, or in some cases an attribute check).

it changes the game such that a large number of weaker enemies cease to be a relevant threat. there is a reason modifiers to enemy saving throws are so hard to come by in 5e. they tend to be very limited use or require the enemy to have already failed a saving throw, or affect only one saving throw (and still tend to expend an extremely precious resource even then). (in contrast, the +2 to hit with spell attacks only makes an action more possible, and does not in fact break bounded accuracy contrary to what most people understand bounded accuracy to mean, though that doesn't make it a desirable element of the game either).

it also goes against a design principle which is less important in terms of balance or mechanics, but which many people find to be a desirable principle... specifically, 5e had the stated intention of reducing the number of fiddly bonuses you would have to chase down to be an "optimized" character. suddenly, if you want to be the best at landing spells, a theurge dip becomes something you simply cannot replace.

there's also the fact that the class steals most of the cleric's thunder (literally in the case of tempest theurge's). this is somewhat less of a concern if for some reason you are removing the cleric class from the game, or are otherwise not interested in having anyone play one.

but from a balance perspective? channel arcana is all kinds of busted. if you aren't seeing problems with it, you're probably either at quite low level such that you haven't seen enemies become literally incapable of succeeding on a saving throw (a 20 is not an automatic success on a saving throw in 5e, nor is a 1 an automatic failure, for the record) and/or your wizard is (intentionally or unintentionally) avoiding abusing it. it is an extremely strong ability that warps the game in undesirable ways. there was a reason every single optimized spellcaster build in 3.x had the highest DC for their spells that they could possibly get, and it is specifically *because* of how much it warps the game.

Foxhound438
2016-10-08, 10:18 PM
Really? So free, infinite flight at level 14 isn't broken? And neither is resistance to all nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing? And neither is the ability to enforce disadvantage on all saving throws against fire spells?

Aarocockra gets free infinite flight at level 1

Barbarian gets resistance to all BPS at level 1, and nearly everything at 3

Sorcorer gets to force disad on spell saves at level 3. Sure it costs some resource each time, but a hightened CC spell is a lot more powerful than a simple damage spell.

Arkhios
2016-10-09, 11:26 PM
People are generally upset about the Channel Arcana giving a +2 to your Save DC. Personally I don't care, and the theurge has been allowed in my games since it came out. It hasn't been outperforming the Cleric, and everything's been fine thus far.

People tend to get upset with a lot of things, often before seeing/using/experiencing it first themselves. People *think* they can see how something works in play without actually trying it out themselves. Especially when it comes to UA material. If only people could instead wait with their comments AFTER they've playtested and not criticise something straight fresh from the oven, maybe half of the fuss about UA "overpowered crap" nonsense could shine in its absence.

It's pretty much equally stupid as preaching on probabilities. In their heads, if it's 'probable' that it 'might' outperform something, it most certainly 'will'. While in truth it might just as well be the opposite.

/End of rant.

DracoKnight
2016-10-10, 12:32 AM
People tend to get upset with a lot of things, often before seeing/using/experiencing it first themselves. People *think* they can see how something works in play without actually trying it out themselves. Especially when it comes to UA material. If only people could instead wait with their comments AFTER they've playtested and not critizise something straight from reading it, maybe half of the fuss about UA "overpowered crap" nonsense could shine in its absence.

It's pretty much equally stupid as preaching on probabilities. In their heads, if it's 'probable' that it 'might' outperform something, it most certainly 'will'. While in truth it might just as well be the opposite.

/End of rant.

Another one that people freaked out about that's been doing just fine in my games is the Undying Light warlock. It's on par with the others, honestly :smallsmile:

Arkhios
2016-10-10, 01:26 PM
Another one that people freaked out about that's been doing just fine in my games is the Undying Light warlock. It's on par with the others, honestly :smallsmile:

It sounds as I suspected. The problem with cheesy builds is not a built-in feature of any class. The real culprits are the players who want to make cheese. And frankly, those players are prone to make cheese out of pretty much any class anyway :smallannoyed:

DracoKnight
2016-10-10, 02:46 PM
It sounds as I suspected. The problem with cheesy builds is not a built-in feature of any class. The real culprits are the players who want to make cheese. And frankly, those players are prone to make cheese out of pretty much any class anyway :smallannoyed:

Exactly. The problem is min-maxer munchkins who are going to do so whether you allow UA, or just Core.

What I love about the Undying Light though, is that the Core Otherworldly Patrons are all Evil-to-Neutral slanting. Undying Light just thematically offers a more Good-to-Neutral slanting Otherworldly Patron. Which was something that was missing in the Warlock. But if you read fan theories about Destiny, could still be good for an evil patron.

Now, don't get me wrong, the Undying Light's abilities are good, but I don't think - and I can bear witness to it - that they're game breaking in the least. My group also fixed their expanded spell list, because it needed help.