How to ask a DM after he says no

[ShadowMan25]

Hi everyone. I was just gaming with my group last night, playing my halfling paladin when the dm again reminded us that later in the campaign that we can change characters. so told him i was going to play my unchained summoner I was working on when he turn to me and said no summoner (even though he allows all other tier 1 classes). I asked him why and he told me even though he likes the flavor of the summoners he finds them overpowered and started listing all the problems with them that sounded more like the core summoner. I tried to explain to him that it was the unchain summoner and that I was not going to take any archetypes or feats that increase the number monster I can summon, but as I started to explain he got distracted by the commotion made by the other players and he did not hear me. I'm afraid that he might not know about the unchaind classes and already made up his mind about the summoner.

so my question how do you ask your dm again about something he already said no to but might not had fully understand what he was being asked. I have no problem with the dm, he seems like a cool guy, but how he said no make me hesitant about asking him again.

[Sandsarecool]

Hmm.
When a DM says no, it's a no, man.

Though if things are as you say, try talking to him away from the table, and bring your papers to show him. Do this AWAY from teh distractions.
Most DMs allow things so long as the table is having fun. Try getting everybody on your side; he'll certainly listen to you then. In one of the first tables I played at after I moved schools, my power level was way higher than everybody else, due to my experience at the game. I was just always careful to be a good sport and let people have their moments in the spotlight. There was never any conflict.

What else...

[Quertus]

In email. List his points, explain that they do not apply to your class.

Alternately, duplicate themes from one of his sessions: abduct his little sister / parent / so, and offer to exchange their safe return for the class you want. I'm sure things will go as well for you as they did for the BBEG.

[Extra Anchovies]

The thing with the summoner is that it has a rather high power floor. You can learn the least effective spells, summon the least powerful creatures, and give your eidolon the least useful evolutions, but unless you completely abstain from using one or more of your three central class features, you're still going to contribute decently because of just how powerful summoning is on a strategic level. A supply of expendable combatants has greater ability to take actions, occupy the battlefield, and take damage than a group of PCs is assumed to have.

The summoner's power (or at least a fair chunk of it) is also very immediately apparent. Summon Monster I-IX is right in their class table, and the Eidolon is a strong, indefinite-duration summon on top of the SLA. The wizard's power... not so much. All they have is a few bonus feats and those numbers over in the spells-per-day table; what puts that class and the other full spellcasters in a league above everyone else is the power available in their spell lists, which are in an entirely different part of the book and require a fair bit of sorting through. If Sleep, Invisibility, Fly, Polymorph, Teleport, Disintegrate, Plane Shift, Trap the Soul, and Time Stop were listed in the Wizard's class features, it'd look a heck of a lot more powerful than it does as is.

[ekarney]

In email. List his points, explain that they do not apply to your class.

Alternately, duplicate themes from one of his sessions: abduct his little sister / parent / so, and offer to exchange their safe return for the class you want. I'm sure things will go as well for you as they did for the BBEG.


Now I'm very aware that blue means sarcasm, but all I'm gonna say is: The resources your DM has at his disposal are probably a lot worse than what the PC's did...

But seriously, no means no when it comes to a decision, chances are your DM didn't want to say no, but also didn't want to allow it. If you do want to discuss it, do it away from the table in a calm and collected situation.

[Zanos]

It sounds like he was distracted, so ask him about it privately. Be clear that unchained summoner is a nerf/rewrite. If he says no again, drop it.

[Knitifine]

I would suggest you don't as a general rule.
However, if you know your DM is someone who enjoys balancing things, maybe even making their own balance changes to certain classes, then introducing to them the idea of a more balanced summoner be best. I would suggest talking to them in person out of the DnD session environment.

[Jay R]

In general, a character works best if the DM really likes him or her. In this case, even if you win, the DM will rule against your summoner any time there is any ambiguity. You'll have more fun playing a character that really appeals to both you and the DM.

[Afgncaap5]

In general I'd advise against going back to a GM about things like this because GMs already have a lot to deal with (and having a point for point list of technical reasons why a GM should say yes to something can feel like a character is overpowering the table without even being in play sometimes), but it might be worth approaching the topic from the other direction: ask that since the Unchained Summoner doesn't actually have the issues that the GM is worried about, what situations are there where the GM would be comfortable allowing it? That way, the ball is more in the GMs court in regards to what problems the class brings, and I doubt the GM would truly feel that there's no way for the character to be usable. (Case in point, if your GM doesn't care for the action economy advantage the class can give, you might be able to suggest just having that character for a one-shot cameo without having access to the Summon Monster spells. That way you can still play the class at least once, the GM can see it in action without fearing that this character will be about every week, and the GM might warm to the character enough to let it show up again.)

[RedMage125]

Alternately, duplicate themes from one of his sessions: abduct his little sister / parent / so, and offer to exchange their safe return for the class you want. I'm sure things will go as well for you as they did for the BBEG.

I love this plan. Nothing could possibly go wrong. :|

[Geddy2112]

Having been the guy who recently said no, and having been told no on concepts before, I can see both sides.

Your DM is probably genuinely concerned about the power level of the summoner breaking the game and overshadowing other players, or making it impossible to design encounters that will be challenging. They either have to be so overpowered that other characters routinely die or TPK is a thing, or you simply steamroll everything in front of you with little to no effort.

Most recently, a player in my campaign asked permission to play a svirfneblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-svirfneblin). I said no, not only because they(and gnomes) do not exist in my setting, but because they are a very powerful race and I saw being asked to be one as a shameless attempt to powergame. The races allowed in the setting have been explained in writing from the get go, and I politely reminded him that gnomes and all gnome variants do not exist in this setting. Instead of explaining why they wanted to play this race and how it would work in this setting, they pouted, then ragequit the campaign.

All that said, if you have a damn good backstory/concept and reason why you want to be something, I am far more likely to say yes. Explain to your DM that you want to play the unchained summoner(and ask them to review it) which is far more balanced, that you are not using any superpowered combos, and most importantly, why summoner is key to your concept. Why your character is a summoner, how they got their eidolon, what their eidolon is, etc etc. If your DM expresses concern of you hijacking the setting, going rogue and abusing caster tricks, give them a hook to keep your character at bay. Maybe you have a sibling who is being held hostage by BBEG, or that you need your eidolon to find them. Something to set them at ease that you are not trying to break their setting and cheese the place. Maybe their eidolon is there to supervise your character, and the powers that be will bolt from the blue you if you go berserk. Although if your DM is genuinely worried such a safeguard is needed, then either they have evidence or belief that you will cheese and hijack the game, or have had players do it to them in the past. And those are problems for another thread.

Also explain that in fairness, you get a chance to make your case but you understand and respect their authority to say yes or no. Don't throw a tantrum if they decline, just keep the idea tucked away for another game. Even if it is just fiat, they are running the game so they get the say to what is allowed and not allowed. Then go back to the drawing board.

[Dekion]

As a DM, I am always open to discussion about my decisions, just not during the game, and it doesn't mean I will change my mind. I am not a big fan of the standard version of the Summoner, and do not allow it, but I do allow the Unchained version. Perhaps he is just concerned about certain details of the class with which he, as a DM is not comfortable, and that's okay. But, if you feel like he is the kind of person you can have a discussion with about your choice and why you feel he should allow it, do so, however, remember, you are pleading with the judge and throwing yourself on the mercy of the court, and ultimately the DM's decision is final. Hope for the best, but expect the worst. And, if the worst you can expect is that he will hold to the "no," be respectful and show you are a team player as well.

[Pugwampy]

Perhaps you could remind him that whats good for the player is good for the DM . Would he not have fun tossing a few summoners at the party ?

I always snigger when the dude with "unlimited cosmic power" is so afraid of so and so that he must cry no .

[Chronikoce]

Perhaps you could remind him that whats good for the player is good for the DM . Would he not have fun tossing a few summoners at the party ?

I always snigger when the dude with "unlimited cosmic power" is so afraid of so and so that he must cry no .

Time management. Not all DM's have unlimited free time and it is far easier to build a balanced encounter for a party that doesn't have access to constant disposable characters.

Also in general, any pet based class increases the duration of combat due to the extra combatants on the field. It's fine with experienced players who can efficiently take their turn but I've had players who can barely keep the flow of combat going with just their own character.

As for suggestions regarding convincing him otherwise. Your best bet is a friendly discussion. If you bring forth a powerpoint and start listing all the reasons why summoner should be allowed you may not convince him but instead just make him go on the defensive to try and justify his original assessment of the summoner.

[RedMage125]

As a DM, I am always open to discussion about my decisions, just not during the game, and it doesn't mean I will change my mind. I am not a big fan of the standard version of the Summoner, and do not allow it, but I do allow the Unchained version. Perhaps he is just concerned about certain details of the class with which he, as a DM is not comfortable, and that's okay. But, if you feel like he is the kind of person you can have a discussion with about your choice and why you feel he should allow it, do so, however, remember, you are pleading with the judge and throwing yourself on the mercy of the court, and ultimately the DM's decision is final. Hope for the best, but expect the worst. And, if the worst you can expect is that he will hold to the "no," be respectful and show you are a team player as well.

I'm a bit of a rules lawyer myself, and one of my current players in the game I DM was my GM for a Pathfinder game. He knows the rules about as well as I do, and I don't object to mid-game discussions about actual RULES.

When I make a judgment call, however (such as whether or not a particular feat, spell of magic item should be allowed), it needs to take place between sessions. And I'm honest with my players. If I'm on the fence, I'll tell them. They're mostly respectful of my veto decisions (which is usually spells out of the Spell Compendium, namely those that came from Forgotten Realms).

[XionUnborn01]

I think the first thing you should do is ask if he's willing to have a discussion with the understanding that you just want to show him the differences between the unchained class and a core summoner. (I'm not familiar with the unchained classes so I can't really go into more detail.)

If you make a list of his complaints and then write down how your summoner would relate to those problems versus the core summoner, you have a better shot of at least having him hear you out.

Either way though, be prepared that is he says no, it's best to not push the issue because he might have very valid reasons for not allowing it. (For example, I don't allow psionics in my games simply because I don't have phsyical copies of the books and haven't studied the rules well enough to work them into a group.)

[ShadowMan25]

thanks you all for the advice. looks like I'm going to wait couple of weeks and ask him again but I'm going to be more carefully this time. still wondering if he knows of pathfinder unchained, like i said before he pointed out every thing that was wrong with the core summoner not the uc summoner, but then I forgot that my brother ask is he was going to use the multiclassing alternative and the dm said he was not going to use that multiclassing system, which leave me more confuse. if he knows about unchained summoner why would he think its so powerful when he is allowing the druid class.
druid / summoner

HP - tied, both get d8
skills - druid, they get 4 while summoners get 2
weapon - maybe a tie, the summoners get all simple weapons but druid get a smaller list but get a few martial weapons
armor - druids, they can wear heavy armor with a single feat as long as its made of wood or hide
Saves - druids, they have two good saves while summoners have one
Spells druid, they are full caster while summoner are only can cast spells up to level 6. I know summoners get good spells but druids get level 9 spells
Masters eidolon/animal summoner, you can customize your eidolon while druids can't but again both classes gain a second source of actions
Secondary ability tied, yes summoners get summon monster, but only to summon monster 7 and won't work while your eidolon out, also they can't touch creatures being warded, while a druid can gain wild shape which can allow him change into a lot of animals, elemental, and Plants where then he can join his animal companion on the field ripping his opponents apart

druid 4 / summoner 1 (this is just my opinion on the classes)

after writing all this I guess it sounds like i'm complaining about not getting my classes but I'm just confuse why would a dm allow a druid but not a uc summoner. in the end I will respect him if he says no, even though I'm allowed to play a druid which I consider slightly more powerful then the unchained summoner( just love the summoner flavor more).

[CharonsHelper]

Of note though - while I agree with you that the Unchained Summoner isn't OP relative to some other classes, it's basically only plays in the most annoying way possible that casters can - by summoning tons of stuff. Any build based around it is straight up annoying to me.

1. While god wizards are more powerful than martials, summoning invalidates them.

2. (more importantly) Summoning up tons of stuff clutters up the game and slows the action to a crawl.

[Psyren]

Of note though - while I agree with you that the Unchained Summoner isn't OP relative to some other classes, it's basically only plays in the most annoying way possible that casters can - by summoning tons of stuff. Any build based around it is straight up annoying to me.

1. While god wizards are more powerful than martials, summoning invalidates them.

2. (more importantly) Summoning up tons of stuff clutters up the game and slows the action to a crawl.

You can make the Summoner much less disruptive by

a) Requiring Unchained
b) Requiring the Spirit Summoner archetype (this does not modify the Eidolon's base form, so the combination is legal.)

This removes their summon monster ability and replaces it with the Shaman's Spirit class features, severely curtailing their ability to clutter the battlefield, but compensating them with a few hexes and spells they might not otherwise have access to. In addition, it also makes them MAD, toning them down even further.

Alternatively you can require Counter-Summoner but that feels just a bit too niche.

[Mordaedil]

Most recently, a player in my campaign asked permission to play a svirfneblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-svirfneblin). I said no, not only because they(and gnomes) do not exist in my setting, but because they are a very powerful race and I saw being asked to be one as a shameless attempt to powergame. The races allowed in the setting have been explained in writing from the get go, and I politely reminded him that gnomes and all gnome variants do not exist in this setting. Instead of explaining why they wanted to play this race and how it would work in this setting, they pouted, then ragequit the campaign.
Svirfneblin are actually a really terrible choice for powergaming.

[bookkeeping guy]

Its reasonable for him to want things balanced. You may even have to take a nerf hit of only so many pets at once. I mean some of the classes out there are ridiculous. Like earlier i was looking at a thread that was for someone asking about a half ogre, half sea giant, and part water orc. Or something like that...

But the point is...wtf you can't have 3 races in one one character?! I mean how the fudge do you have 2 sperm both fertilize a zygote egg that are all different races? And that wasn't even counting the ridiculous feats and class stacked onto it all.

OK, that being said after balance is solved.

Your DM should be about promoting balance and a story but not be telling people they have no say in their characters.

Why even use this DM? Go to someone else...

Here's an example....

PC1: Hi, I'm looking for a new group and DM can I join?
DM: sure you can join. But you can't play elves. Oh and you can't play anything magic. We have an option for a gully dwarf character. Don't worry I'll totally hook you up bro.

And another example...

Years ago when Lord of the Rings Online was about to go into beta there were a whole bunch of ass hats that wanted to make it so only they could play elves but no one else could. So they wanted a rule that only like 50 people on the whole game could play elves and that they'd be one of them and everyone else had to be the ugly races.

And it almost passed. There were people that were going to allow an inequality system.

So watch out for inequality peeps.

[dascarletm]

Pizza and beer (if age appropriate).

Seriously, to get him more receptive, bring goodies. It'll keep him from talking (while his mouth is full), and the joy of food/drink will put him in a better mood.

EDIT: General tips

Open with you talking about his concerns. This way he will see that you understand his trepidation of allowing the summoner. Then you say exactly what unchained did to relieve this.

[Someone Else DM]

Throughout the post ShadowMan25, the common elements are...

1. Planning - Put it on paper and show your DM how there will be a game balance even with a Summoner in the party. Have the proper stats, rules, and other balancing aspects ready for when he presents his specific case against it. To show him that the flow of the game would not be slowed down, have the stats for all of your Summon Monsters (or at least the top 7-10 for each level) pre-made. Account for any modifiers that adjust their abilities, attack mods., saves, etc. This reduces the amount of times you have to refer to a book and keeps game play moving.

2. Etiquette - Be respectful of your DM's time and judgement. Don't present your case in the middle of a session. Ask to meet before the session or stay after one. With no one else in ear shot, your DM may also be more apt to negotiate a balancing flavor to your character (cursed item, genetic flaw, etc.) that allows you to only summon so many per minute/day or you can only have so many HD of Summoned creatures at one time. After playing this way for a while, perhaps he will see that you are not that overpowered. At said time, your character may learn of a way to have the balancing flavor (restriction) be "curable".

3. Personality - Don't be a whiny biatch about it. If the final answer is no (even if there is no quantifiable reason other than, "Because I said no"), accept it and possibly plan that Summoner for another campaign.

4. Bribe him, then get him drunk, and while he is passed out, abduct his little sister.

[Psyren]

Svirfneblin are actually a really terrible choice for powergaming.

They have fairly strong defenses at low levels: +4 AC, +2 saves/+3 will, SR 12, +7 stealth (+9 underground!) and +3 Perception, all for 0 LA.

[Mordaedil]

They have fairly strong defenses at low levels: +4 AC, +2 saves/+3 will, SR 12, +7 stealth (+9 underground!) and +3 Perception, all for 0 LA.

They have +3 level adjustment, which makes them incredible mediocre. The save bonus and AC bonus are nice as is the Spell Resistance, but it's only effectively 8 + character level.

Among all the +3 LA races, they are the worst of the bunch.

[Manyasone]

They have +3 level adjustment, which makes them incredible mediocre. The save bonus and AC bonus are nice as is the Spell Resistance, but it's only effectively 8 + character level.

Among all the +3 LA races, they are the worst of the bunch.

I believe Psyren is talking about the PF variant. Races don't have LA in PF

[Mordaedil]

I believe Psyren is talking about the PF variant. Races don't have LA in PF

He mentions specifically their 3.5 abilities, and claims they have an LA of 0. Svirfneblin in Pathfinder get +2 AC, +2 to all saves and spell resistance 11 + class levels.

I mean, they are really good in pathfinder, but in 3.5 their "awesome abilities" are hugely offset by a painful level adjustment.

[Psyren]

He mentions specifically their 3.5 abilities, and claims they have an LA of 0. Svirfneblin in Pathfinder get +2 AC, +2 to all saves and spell resistance 11 + class levels.

I mean, they are really good in pathfinder, but in 3.5 their "awesome abilities" are hugely offset by a painful level adjustment.

Dude, the guy you were responding to literally linked to the PFSRD in his post, and the OP of this thread was referring to Unchained Summoners. How could it be any more obvious that we were talking about Pathfinder and not 3.5? :smallconfused:

Everything I listed was from the PF version, I was merely doing the full math. For example, the +4 AC at 1st level is from the +2 racial, +1 size for being small, and +1 from their Dex bonus.

[Zanos]

To be fair, considering they're much stronger than most other races, I doubt a GM would let you play one under normal circumstances.

[ShadowMan25]

whoops, forgot to respond. I talked to my dm and he said that he does know about the unchained summoner just that he still finds them way to versatile to be balance what he said was.

"a non-archetype summoner can be as skilled at combat as fighter, better at unarmed attacks than a monk, knowledge checks on par with bard or or oracle, battlefield control on par with wizard, all without changing your build."

plus he seems to not what anything with evolution points. I going to respect his decision even though I don't 100% agree with him, but he a good dm and makes the game fun. I will probable end up playing a druid though :smallfrown:.

[Xerlith]

Eh, you can always play a Spirit Binder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spirit-binder-wizard-archetype) Conjurer Wizard with a Mauler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype) Familiar (who was a Ranger) and the Evolved Familiar feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-familiar) and pretend you're a Summoner.

[Yael]

Talk it to him more directly. Try to emphatize your points correctly.

Otherwise, no means no.