balanced?

[rollfrenzy]

Do you think the OOTS game is balanced between the members of OOTS?


Personally, I think it's Roy and Haley FTW.

[SKarious]

Haven't had a game with all 6 players yet, but I think it is pretty balanced.
Roy actually comes off a bit weak IMO - He's not that good on def, and until very late in the game, he's completely useless against flying monsters.

[rollfrenzy]

In the game we played, after the second level of dungeon, Roy barely needed to roll the dice to kill the first monster and after the first, due to greater cleavage, DIDN'T have to roll. He just picked up all the cards.

[SKarious]

Of course, it all depends on the players and playing style. If the other players see Roy is gaining momentum, they can stop him before he gets to +12\+12 with his Great Cleavage. Make him miss turns, refuse to aid him against the first monster, don't play puny kobolds and goblins first and let him "rev up". (keep them last in your hand or as support for the chiefs).
Great Cleavage works only on the Greenhilt Sword - a single flying or impervious monster and Roy is left there feeling like a tool.

Dealing with Haley is trickier, as she is more balanced.

[rollfrenzy]

Yeah, but doesn't the fact that you have to actively cooperate as a team against a character make it a bit unbalanced?

[SKarious]

It doesn't take that much to block Roy. As I said, a single flying monster and he's out of the fight.
feeding Roy all the helpless monsters in the first levels is playing to his strengths. It's no different than resting 3 spaces from belkar or accepting Elan's aid every time he offers it.
I think it's great how it captures the spirit of the comic: after all, the main function of most members of the OOTS is to make Roy's life harder.

Now, how about Haley? How can you stop the lovely chaotic good-ish rogue?

[PMDM]

Obviously, you could out play your character against Haley. (Take all the loot as Elan, destroy monsters as Roy, etc.)

I think the only way to deal with haley is Lightning Bolt her with V, or use Roy's Party Leader Veto to cut Haley down.

But V has a really hard time winning the game, he/she has only a +1/+1 to start with. V's shticks are all magic based, except for verbose recitation, and the Quarterstaff. Frankly, those aren't good alternatives.

Sure, Lighting bolt is great, when fully boosted. But you have to find it in the deck first. Fireball is absolutly needed. But, unless you're willing to take a wound, you probably won't gain loot from the monsters you killed.

Overall, it justs adds up to the fact that V has to rest a whole lot more than any other character, including Durkon. This slows V down. Add that to the fact that ranged attacks can only be made if you don't move, and V becomes a turtle. But V can only win by killing Xykon quickly, so it's counter intuitive.

Let's group the characters into 2 classes: Shtick oriented and Loot oriented.
Loot Oriented: Obviously, Halley, Elan, and to a lesser extent Durkon, are Loot Oriented characters. They're more likely to recieve the Special "Everyone wants it" loot cards. So they want the game to last as long as possible, so that they find those loot cards, and boost their score. The reason Halley is a good character is because she's good at just taking those special loot cards from people. Elan and Durkon need to recieve them.
Shtick Oriented: Roy, V, and a lesser extent Belkar, are Shtick Oriented. They want to get the Shticks out of their deck and into their hands. so they can gain Shticks better than the Loot character. Roy is very good at this, because each Sthick he gets adds to his monster fighting power. With Belkar, it usually helps him kill players, not monsters.(This is why the daggers of doom has the +1 wound boost, instead of an attack and defense boost). With V, the more Shticks he/she gets helps him fight better, but because V usually has to flip Sthicks to kill monsters/get more Shticks, he/she usually doesn't feel the extra power effect until he/she rests.

So to sum up, the Loot Characters want a long game. The Shtick characters want a short game. The main reason for this is because the Shtick deck is easier to max out than your loot cards are.
The Shtick characters want to stop the Loot characters from gaining too much loot, so they want to end the game faster. As an added bonus, they usually get to fight more monsters if they move quickly, and of course, the Xykon bonus is nice.

So with V, I dunno. V needs to move fast. That's why V has the elf senses. He can find stairs quicker so that he can get to Xykon quicker. But his main Shticks make him sit still, or force him to rest. It seems like V was built to fail.


I'm not saying V can over come such a disadvantage. If V isn't considered a threat by anyone, than V can essetially become "The come from behind winner", where V is allowed to rest and profit from other people's rivalries. But then, so can everyone. So it seems that V has a disadvantage.

[InaVegt]

And V, as an evoker, should have a disadvantage.

[PMDM]

Maybe in terms or D&D, but certainly not in terms of this game.

Then again...

When V is maxed out, he has a +7/+7 lightning bolt, and a range of 4-5 (haven't checked this). There's only one card that's stronger than that, and that is a banjo the clown, with 5 people believing in him. Unlikely, but not impossible.

[Ragnar Iceblood]

our play group feels V is a very weak character, and the game feels very booring when you play him/her.
V isnt very balanced in regards to the others.

[Daimbert]

In three games I've played solo (myself playing all 6 characters) and VERY co-operatively:

Roy has won once, and Haley has won twice.
V and Elan have generally finished in the middle of the pack every game; V because he can wander around on his own and kill things to get schticks and loot, Elan because he's the most useful character to give loot to in most instances (Durkon's healing is less generally useful in friendly games because you aren't afraid to rest, but he REALLY helps V since he allows him to drop a fireball without fear of losing the wound).
Durkon was second in the first game since he got "Turn Undead" which allowed him to kill Xykon. After that, getting schticks has been very hard for him.
Belkar in a friendly game can do quite well with wandering within one move from the entrance and killing monsters. He can simply try to attack one and if he doesn't succeed on his own retreat to the entrance. Eventually his rolls will come up. Also, he ends up being the first one out of the dungeon, which is an easy 5 points.

So I'm not sure how unbalanced it is. Yes, V's magic abilities make it generally harder for him to loot (since he has to attack and then move into the room to avoid a wound on his multi-monster attack) but he can also pick up schticks quickly doing that if his rolls come up. Roy's "Great Cleavage" attack is powerful unless he gets a really tough monster as the first opponent, at which point he's in trouble. And with weak monsters in a stack, Haley, V, Belkar and even Elan and Durkon can clean up as well.

Haley is really tough once she gets multiple sneak attacks and Longbows, but before that she's really kind of weak in combat. Her ability to get loot, though, is what always carries the day for her.

[donkyhotay]

Umm... did durkon use 'turn undead' on xykon directly or on the monsters that were supporting him? If you read the rules on the 'xykon special', xykon himself is immune to turn undead. Now you can use turn undead on xykon and banish undead minions underneath him to weaken him but xykon himself can not be defeated by turn undead. Anyways, back to the topic... Personally I think the game is pretty well balanced. There are characters that seem weak (such as V) but their strengths balance it out. I've found that the characters most people consider to be weak really aren't weak, their just not as obvious to play. V for example CAN get loot. Either by playing nice with the 'buff spell' (sure other guy can give you +2 but I can give you +2 *and* extra range, extra wound, etc.) or by playing dirty with any ranged attack spell (shoot a weakened character so that when they run to entrance they drop loot at V's location).

[Daimbert]

Umm... did durkon use 'turn undead' on xykon directly or on the monsters that were supporting him? If you read the rules on the 'xykon special', xykon himself is immune to turn undead.

Oops [grin].


There are characters that seem weak (such as V) but their strengths balance it out. I've found that the characters most people consider to be weak really aren't weak, their just not as obvious to play. V for example CAN get loot. Either by playing nice with the 'buff spell' (sure other guy can give you +2 but I can give you +2 *and* extra range, extra wound, etc.) or by playing dirty with any ranged attack spell (shoot a weakened character so that when they run to entrance they drop loot at V's location).

Or just kill things at range 0 with fireball. With good rolls, you'll only take one wound that you'll heal back when you rest to get your schticks unflipped. Kill the tough things with LB if you have it, easy things with MM. You may be roll dependent, but ultimately all the characters are unless they want to give away a lot of loot to guarantee hits.

[PMDM]

Sure, you can PvP with V. But in the long run, you'll usually lose. You have to flip shticks. So the chance of having to rest as V is much bigger than any other character. Then any character (even elan) has a good chance of dealing with you on their own.

[SKarious]

Actually, Elan is extremely very in defense. Probably second only to Durkon. With X-treme Diplomacy, the Chain-shirt, and the angel, Elan is very hard to take down. And that's before counting the Lute boost.
It really makes him the most likely to rush ahead into unexplored rooms or dodge psychotic halflings.

[donkyhotay]

Thats what he's meant to do. The game is designed so that you can play *as* the character and elan is very likely to do something like that.

[GymGeekAus]

Ahhh, but we're talking about game balance, not RPing.

Our group has also found :vaarsuvius: something of a puzzlement.

The only distinct advantage I have found is that V can use AoE's--which means you get an economic advantage when trading loot for support from characters. Putting +6 on your fireball to hit 4 bad guys is a really good way to gain X's.

If you can pair yourself up with Elan, you can create a powerful team where Elan uncovers monsters with illusions or hiding, supports V when it's time to fireball them, and consistently trades loot to V for support when he's triggering encounters. Thus, they keep the loot flowing to each other, as long as they can keep far enough away from other players interfering with them.

V still has to rest more, though, because of all the schtick-flipping. And resting sucks--you can't even support people while you're resting.

I think V should be put on a recharge magic variant. Just say that V can't use the same magic battle shtick twice in a turn, instead of all the flipping of schticks. V is an evoker, after all! It would do wonders for V's playability.

[donkyhotay]

Ahhh, but we're talking about game balance, not RPing.

Our group has also found :vaarsuvius: something of a puzzlement.

The only distinct advantage I have found is that V can use AoE's--which means you get an economic advantage when trading loot for support from characters. Putting +6 on your fireball to hit 4 bad guys is a really good way to gain X's.

If you can pair yourself up with Elan, you can create a powerful team where Elan uncovers monsters with illusions or hiding, supports V when it's time to fireball them, and consistently trades loot to V for support when he's triggering encounters. Thus, they keep the loot flowing to each other, as long as they can keep far enough away from other players interfering with them.

V still has to rest more, though, because of all the schtick-flipping. And resting sucks--you can't even support people while you're resting.

I think V should be put on a recharge magic variant. Just say that V can't use the same magic battle shtick twice in a turn, instead of all the flipping of schticks. V is an evoker, after all! It would do wonders for V's playability.


That would drastically unbalance the game in V's favor. I wasn't talking about playing the game for RP value. I think that would be a little silly myself. What I was saying though was that with his defense, elan is good at diving into bad situations and managing to come out of it. I've seen people play elan and do horribly because they don't have the 'guaranteed win' that occurs more often with other characters like roy or durkon. But even if elan doesn't often get a 'guaranteed win' if you throw him into the middle of a mess he usually manages to come out of it pretty well (especially if you use PPI properly) to win some experience and loot. Especially if someone is playing durkon. All that extra loot people trade to elan for bard song allows him to make great deals with durkon for healing. Strangely, elan giving durkon loot that elan drools over works well. Elan gets healed for a 'promise' that during a later battle he will give durkon a free bard song. Admittedly durkon could refuse to trade back (and this has happened late game) but for early/middle game that doesn't happen since it pays more to swap loot back and forth like that between those two characters.

[Daimbert]

I wasn't talking about playing the game for RP value. I think that would be a little silly myself.

Why?

One of the main reasons that I wanted to get this game was because it can be played in multiple ways. First, you can use it as an RPG-lite. Second, you can play it more like a board game but as more of a PvE game (like Shadows Over Camelot, if you know about that game) than a PvP game. Or as a PvP game. Or as a strategic competitive board game. So if someone wants to indeed try to roleplay it, the fact that you can roleplay the OotS and do what they would do is a HUGE advantage, and likely part of the design (I've seen comments elsewhere that in some ways it was designed to BE an RPG that you could play if not everyone showed up to a session).


Strangely, elan giving durkon loot that elan drools over works well. Elan gets healed for a 'promise' that during a later battle he will give durkon a free bard song. Admittedly durkon could refuse to trade back (and this has happened late game) but for early/middle game that doesn't happen since it pays more to swap loot back and forth like that between those two characters.

This isn't strange at all. Durkon will want to trade treasures that Elan drools over (and Durkon doesn't) to get Elan's aid since it makes him more likely to win the battle and thus potentially get access to loot that Durkon DOES drool over. Loot that Durkon drools over is more valuable to Durkon than loot Elan drools over. However, it's a good idea for Durkon to accept loot that Elan drools over for healing because it means that he won't have to trade away a loot that he DOES drool over in the future to get aid ... and Elan's aid is also worth more than everyone else's, so that's still more of an advantage to him.

[Hebelio]

Hey I have played only two games with the full six players. I have to say Roy is the better at ahcking away but we have had Durkon win both games so far. And as far as V goes has always finished third not bad at all...

[The Giant]

V may be the most difficult character to get rolling, simply because the best thing for V is if every other character does poorly early on. The reason is, nothing is better for V than stacks of monsters sitting out in the open, undefeated. They make perfect Fireball fodder.

Thus, V's best bet is often the counter-intuitive one of refusing to help other players in the opening stages of the game. Normally, players freely trade Loot until things start to get near the finish line. V should do what he/she can to make other players lose early so that he/she can bat clean-up and gain shticks very quickly. In games I've played where V follows the other players around, picking off from a safe distance the monsters they can't beat, he/she might gain 4-5 shticks before an unlucky player gains even 1.

[Traveling_Angel]

An interesting note is that each character has a certain way to slow them down, and this directly correlates as how they can be "defeated" in the strip. Roy faces a big baddy without momentum (Dragons, anyone?) or gets hit by something that dodges Greenhilt Sword, Elan loses support of the crew, V loses rest, Durkon gets put out all alone, Haley gets little loot, and Belkar gets the shared hostility of the group.

Related to Loot/Shtick based, a note is that Elan, Haley, and to a lesser degree, Durkon, all are devastated by a long run (or several) to the dungeon entrance. V, Roy, and Belkar are less affected.

[GymGeekAus]

Thanks for your perspective, Giant!

How does everyone suggest V overcome the loot problem early-game? The strategy The Giant introduced, withholding assistance, reduces loot for a character that already has issues accumulating it. My strategy of sidekicking with Elan has promise, I think, but I wanna hear other ideas.

Perhaps a house-rule switching Blackwing with Ambiguous Gender as a starting schtick? Blackwing does appear before the gender ambiguity as a joke in the comic, after all (#3 vs at earliest #9, the first time a gender is applied to V).

Also, we've interpreted the fireball schtick to have no effect on players (well, other than V at range 0). That's right, right?

[donkyhotay]

When I play V I work hard to make certain the stairs are right next to the entrance for the first two levlels 'kamakaze' monsters with magic missle/fireball on the lower levels moving back up when I've used all my spells or too wounded.

[PMDM]

When I play V, I socialize a lot less. V needs a friend. V can provide "supporting power" with his/her spells. V needs to keep a low profile, so letting everyone else get loot is in his/her best interest. When I play V, I take full advantage of that Magic Runes room, and the janitorial closets. I encourage people to avoid the secret rooms, and I'm always watching everyone. I never equip loot, unless I know I'm going to use it that turn. The exception are the 2 shtick boosting ones. when I gain enough loot, I then equip enough to go to Xykon's lair, and then immediatly remove them. Obviously, I can't do this with loot like the Talisman, or the stick. But I do it as much as possible.
Basically, I try to solo. But if I can get a bodyguard, I take it.

I never thought of putting stairs near each other as an advantage. I'll try that next game.

[Omega_Goo]

I've played 4 games, but only finished two so far.

I've been Roy essentially every time (Our character cards are rigged. I'm always Roy, and everyone who wants a specific character usually gets it. I swear I shuffled them!) (Actually, we have a male in our group that we call "the homogenous" because you "can't tell what sex he is" [it's a joke...]. He has been V every time we've played.)

Everyone else is threatening to remove Roy from the game entirely. I think it's just that I'm really good at playing the game. (Ok, so I'm insanely lucky too... I got three Greenhilt Swords within my first four shtick draws, two of which were "Up a Level, Down a Level")

I actually auto-killed Xykon due to +12 Sword and +14 assist (3 player game, assist from NPCs).I totally agree on the flying anti-Roy, until you just run back to the first floor and force them to play their other monsters...

Our group actually thinks that Belkar is the worst character (one of them thinks it's V), I just think Belkar's starting shticks suck.

(Edit: Let's contradict myself... :smallredface: )
(Edit: And.. clarification.)

[Fedifensor]

Our group actually thinks that Belkar is the worst character (one of them thinks it's V), I just think his starting shticks suck.

I think having a range attack at the start of the game that doesn't flip when used is pretty nice..

[donkyhotay]

I've always thought ranged attacks we're too weak in this game to really be useful. You can't move, you can only attack one monster, you (usually) don't get loot, and any monster strong enough to warrant having the protection of a ranged attack can almost always attack back anyways.

[phobiandarkmoon]

I'd agree Belkar is the worst character overall, with V coming a close second. The not getting XP from attacking other players (yes yes, there's a schtick but for that you need XP) is a real killer - as is his inability to defend.

V has a tendancy to be either really good or really bad. The times when he's been good, he's got multiple magic missiles/the scroll that boosts it early on. That allows him/her to actually get a decent chance at defeating a stack of critters alone when standing on them.

Haley is silly once she gets going, and is a strong candidate for strongest character IMHO, as she can kills stacks almost as well as Roy, is not impeded by flying creatures, and has a schtick to get past impervious.

Durkon has a problem if (as is often the case with us) other players often don't attack resting players, so his healing ability is less useful. Mind you, if he gets turn undead and Thor's lightnings he gets silly quickly, so he's balanced but not overpowered.

Roy has been discussed. Good against big stacks, has real difficulty vs flying/impervious and therefore fairly easy to stop. Also weak if he doesn't get a greenhilt sword in his first few schticks. Pretty balanced (a tactic we have often used against him is putting very low loot/XP monsters towards the end of a big stack so he gets less reward for killing the first few)

Elan is nicely balanced. He can quietly win if everyone uses his bard song ability to get loot, and is fun to play so people never really seem to mind too much if he falls behind (unlike V or Durkon, who can be quiet boring if that happens).

So, there's my tuppence on the subject

[discomute]

I have only had a few games, but tended to find the winner is the people who get a few +1/+1 loots right at the start. They are SO damn useful.

disco

PS. Also we introduced a houserule that involves "rolling off" to see who places their monster first (or at all). I think it works well.

[irlpotato]

Having played this game about a dozen times, and having played the game, Ive drawn the following conclusions:

Yes, the game is balanced, if you play the characters a certain way. Usually as they are supposed to be played. I'm sure someone else has made some of these points, so apologies if I stole yours.

We always play the Lucky Bastards and the Nerdcore rules (1 is a fail, 12 is a success, no returning for healing wherever you want.). Playing without rolling is fun , unless we're in a quick game, because it leads to some surprising upsets, and it really helps Durkon come into his own when you slow down healing. also traps are fun. they shouldn't be removed.

Oh, and one more house rule: Every time a floor is discovered, players change places around the table. Different people play their cards differently, and its fun to mix it up.

Belkar: Belkar has some of the most underused and incredibly powerful shticks in the game, even those that aren't PVP. "Joy of Killing","Victory Taunt","Schadenfruede" are all good. "Keen Nose" isn't as useful until its combined with "Poor tracking skills". The card that never gets enough play, but is vitally important, is "Probably Evil". You can really wreak some havoc, especially with "Deadly", "Outsmart" and "Horde" monsters on the first level. The main use of this card is to make other players (usually the one before you) lose their battle. You want them to lose so you can attack, rather than use your poor defense scores.

Haley: "Disarm Traps" is good to get early, and don't forget the +2 you get from good reflexes! It's not just a "flip to take no wounds" card! It flies you up the levels. Less useful if there is no trap recycling.

Elan: "Wacky Hijinks" is so much fun, purely for giving certain people nervous twitches. Also, you can bribe people with this: Work out a code phrase, and if you give me loot, ill say it before i use it. (although our resident rules nazi gets up in arms about the meaning of this shtick). Also, if Elan gets a good draw on his shticks, with the megaphone, he can actually become a beast on defense, so use "Gratuitous Nudity" to mess up others plans.

Roy: Not much to say, except if someone is pulling ahead, "party leader veto" the hell out of them, and continually recycle it with "Fearless Leader". Also good to protect against elans "wacky hijinks". We always play that "Great Cleavage" only applies to his sword too, so a flying or impervious monster can slow him right down.

Durkon: The most fun game I've ever played, I've played as Durkon. He never wowed with the combat, until late in the game, but the "W.W.T.D." card is invaluable, and incredibly powerful. I've managed to completely ruin the aforemention rules nazis game by continual use of this card. You can end up with a massive deck, and you can
A) Give someone insurmountable foes,
B) Give someone worthless foes or
C) Get lots of useful screw this cards
D) In small games, where you play to yourself, save easy monsters for yourself.
I've gone whole games without refreshing my hand naturally.

V: V requires patience, because all V needs is one good opportunity, and V can pretty much go from last place to undefeatable. Your 2 protective spells mean you can actually be pretty reckless sometimes, so dont be afraid to dive in there. Also, don't give up your "Buff Spell" for free. make them work for it. Still bored? Your lightning bolt has incredible range. You can pretty much pvp roy, elan and belkar with impunity from a good distance away.

So my recommended styles are:

Haley: Traps are your friend!
Belkar: Other peoples failures are your successes.
Elan: be Elan.
Roy: Tank it!
Durkon: WWTD: prayer (screw this cards) is your friend.
V: Be patient. Your moment will come. Don't be afraid to PVP

And I believe that each of these styles either has a good chance to succeed, or is incredibly fun.

[Squark]

I tried playing all six by myself, and while I may have made a few mistakes, here's what happened. I stopped when I got bored, which was just after the third floor was found.


Durkon: Came out on top, although I didn't tally the scores. I think that had more to do with him getting a huge stack of monsters and slaughtering them all then power, although even an unboosted Thor's lighting coupled with Turn Undead is powerful. Wish I'd found more Thor's Hammers, though.
V: Probably came in Second. Because most people finished their stacks, V just wandered around, Magic Missileing the monsters into submision. She actually had a fairly big loot stash. Unboosted Lightning bolt PVP is a bad idea. Wait until it is boosted.
Haley: Did fairly well. She actually ended up with the most schticks until durkon got the monster stack.
Elan: Win's the loot prize, although that was more because everyone got lots of Elan drools over loot
Roy: Did fairly bad early on, but he redeemed himself somewhat later on. Came in midling
Belkar: I think I learned something playing Belkar. He should start by killing monsters only, because otherwise the entire party won't help him, and helps his target PC instead. He never got even one succesful PvP. He needs to start with monsters, then go pvping, unless he gets the good PvP schticks VERY early on. In which case, everyone else is in trouble.


It should be noted that the deck bordered on being rigged, since I had previously organized all of them. I tried shuffling, but I'm not that great at it. Also, loot flowed very freely through the party to everyone but belkar. poor Belkar:smallfrown:

[Shresh]

actually, contrary to popular belief, Vaarsuvius frequently wins when my family plays. You just have to get the right balance of resting, attacking, and using other people to do the work for the player. it's really very easy with fireball and lightning bolt. get one of those and V's very easily one of the most powerful characters in the game. Worst character? Durkon.

[nerulean]

In my experience with the game, V is very powerful. He likes a single friend and a quick game so he can get down to the lower levels fast and win on shticks before the scoring becomes too loot-oriented. Essentially, a defence monkey goes down and clears the first square of a new level, V follows, then the partner heads off and provokes new battles that V can finish off. We often end up with unbeatable stacks of five or six monsters and Sabine on top in the first two levels (I have no idea why this always happens...) and it's always V who claims it.

The long game is Hayley's win condition, since she just idly wanders around and collects infinite loot. With all his shticks, Roy's tanking makes him powerful, and Belkar usually runs strong enough that he can be competent even in a friendly game. Durkon and Elan are the only people I haven't seen win in the course of a couple of dozen games (it's popular with our university game society). It's possible that they've had bum draws when it comes to shticks, but while the bard is my favourite character to play, I've given up ever winning with him.

[RogueNull]

First off, I'd like to say that everything I say below applies only to full-6-human-player games. They *might* apply to games with one or two NPCs, but I can't vouch for that. Also, I have a house rule that explicitly states people can trade or give loot to others for (unenforcable) promises of future behavior. I make it explicit since the rulebook doesn't make it clear whether or not it's allowed. Allowing unenforcable bribery only spices up the cutthroat and serpentine game!

Since this is a game with human players, even if some PCs are more overpowered (say, Haley and Roy), in my experience the other players will team up to drag down the person in the lead--aka the "crabs-in-a-bucket syndrome". Manipulating this psychology allowed Belkar to win in one particularly amazing game.

In brief, the two strongest characters—Roy and Haley—were crushed by the other players because they surged ahead. The moment Roy Great Cleaved through a room and picked up 2 Shticks on the spot, Belkar was “hired” by the rest to attack him: the other players promised not to assist Roy, or call on Roy for assistance (so Roy couldn't heal via Fearless Leader). Roy was forced to journey back to the Entrance to heal (too risky to sleep and be attacked). In a game where everyone has only 4 hit points, being able to do 2 damage instead of 1 (due to boosted Daggers) is HUGE. Same went for Haley the moment she had too much Loot: Death's l'il helper soon sent her fleeing for the entrance leaving a trail of Loot behind.
Net result: Belkar won (from bribes and from Looting after winning PvP fights), Vaar wound up being second (s/he killed Xykon). Haley and Roy were dead last, with Haley having only 7 loot!

Having seen these games in action, I propose the following character-specific tactics for 6-player (or close to 6-player) games:

Durkon: do everything you can to help players get injured (so you can heal them for Loot)--whether by encouraging Belkar to go PvP-crazy, or by playing "screw this" cards that cause PCs to lose Monster-fights. Divine Intervention is amazingly useful because it is statistically the same as adding 1 to all your battle rolls. WWTD? gives Durkon a better-than-normal chance of getting (and then holding on to) I Forgot They Could Do That, which is the quintessential Xykon-killer. Using the Muskrat 3000 is another cheap (but legal--I think) way of killing Xykon and earning mucho Bragging Rights.

Belkar: Use what I call the “North Korea Strategy”: demand bribes to not attack other PCs. Since Belkar tends to lag behind others in character levels (Shticks) but is lopsidedly good at attacking players, he has nothing to lose by attacking others (fighting new monsters would be a waste of a turn since he’d probably lose if on Defense). In contrast, other players would consider it a waste of precious time to attack other players since it doesn’t gain them XP (unlike Monsters). The opportunity cost of stopping to retaliate against Belkar is simply too high—especially when the other players are happily killing monsters and gaining Loot & Shticks (time is money!). As a result, others player are likely to bribe Belkar to lay off them. The bribes don’t have to be Belkar-loot; in fact, ask for their loot and promise to give it back to them in exchange for their assistance in monster battles later on. They are far more willing to give battle assistance since it doesn’t “cost” them anything. Make sure you extort from every PC in a three-room radius.

Here’s where it gets good: Belkar is now swimming in other people’s Loot, and it’s still only the start of his turn (it’s true what they say: talking is a free action)! Go ahead and pick a fight with a new roomful of Monsters. In the first (defensive) battle, return the other people’s Loot for assistance (and pray that enough people accept) and win easily despite Belkar’s crappy +1 defense. Once Belkar defends himself successfully in a room and switches to Attack, he is nearly unbeatable (sort of like Roy’s Great Cleavage, but less insane). So he only really needed to bribe for assistance once per turn.

Belkar is surprisingly good against Xykon--when you're in Xykon's lair, use Poor Tracking Skills to ban Undead or Goblin from every room you enter. Thus, Xykon will be weaker when he's eventually revealed. Just hope it's some other player that uncovers Xykon (becuase your defense is bad), and make sure said player doesn't kill Xykon on the spot (use Probably Evil to give Xykon a hand). With Xyk revealed you can lead-attack him; with Rage, bribes and some luck, you should be able to kill him.

Elan: Elan tends to be the lowest-level character (fewest Shticks) in all the games I've played. He find it hard to beat monsters and level up. I make up for it by levying a "bard song surcharge" for Elan's aid in battle: in addition to the Elan-loot the other player offers me, I demand a piece of his own loot, so I can ask him for help in a future battle. Since he's getting a good deal from my help, the other PC usually accepts. This helps Elan level up by killing monsters. V can also demand a similar surchage for using his Buff Spell on someone s/he's assisting.
Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion also opens up amazing tactical possibilities. If working in a team, use that to your team's advtantage, if playing in a free-for-all, place monsters to screwup other people (e.g. move monsters into V's room so s/he will have to take damage when Fireballing, or spread monsters out so Roy can't earn obscene XP by Cleaving). You could even rent out your ability to move monsters, accepting bribes to place certain monsters at specific locations. A max-ed out Illusion at +10 is pretty hard to beat!

The other 3 PCs are more straightforward: V, Haley and Roy simply put foot to rear and scribe down names. V and Roy are well-suited to kill Xykon because they have the Opportunity for Sarcastic Quip Loot which, if found, could let them access a previously-discarded I Forgot They Could Do That so as to kill Xykon more easily.

[prj]

I have a house rule that explicitly states people can trade or give loot to others for (unenforcable) promises of future behavior. I make it explicit since the rulebook doesn't make it clear whether or not it's allowed.

The rulebook also doesn't say you can't heal wounds by bumping the table to nudge your marker. Loot is given only for reasons explicitly specified in the rules. Of course, if you like playing with this variant, more power to you, but it's not an ambiguity in the standard rules.


Roy was forced to journey back to the Entrance to heal (too risky to sleep and be attacked).

On that note - Belkar and Durkon like to find stairs going down a long way from the stairs going up. V likes a short path to the entrance - Elven Senses is useful for that.


Divine Intervention is amazingly useful because it is statistically the same as adding 1 to all your battle rolls.

Yes, and for that reason, I think the Lucky Bastards variant ought to be tweaked a bit - rolling a 2 with Divine Intervention should count as a 12 (but without the automatic win) instead of 13, so that (ignoring natural 1s and 12s) the effective range of your roll is changed from 2-11 to 3-12 - upped by 1, just as it is without Lucky Bastards.


Using the Muskrat 3000 is another cheap (but legal--I think) way of killing Xykon and earning mucho Bragging Rights.

Not legal. Check the Xykon Special monster ability on page 30 of the rules.


Elan tends to be the lowest-level character (fewest Shticks) in all the games I've played.

I've done pretty well with him (beat Roy in a 2-player game). In our group, he's won more than half his games. It really depends on how lucky you get with the schtick draws, though. If you get Conscience Angel early, you'll be in good shape. If you can get the Angel, Chain shirt, boosted X-Treme Diplomacy, and the Megaphone, then you've got 8 Defense, non-flipping.

[sasuke898]

I usually play with my friend and we each pick three of the characters. I pick Haley,V, and either Elan or Durkon.We play like the go team rules but with only 1 battle hand. If you get Vs second magic missile, and the old scroll, thats already a +7 to defense (not to mention if Elans on your team with the bard song and the drool factor of the loot). If you can get all the lightning bolts and a get angry screw this card thats a +9 to attack, making V the strongest player if Elan has all four bardsongs and if you give Elan the loot fun. That makes your attack higher than Roys easy (although you need to rest). I love playing Haley especially with an unflipped greed is good schtick and come to me my pretties. If you have disarm traps along with the other two schticks I mentioned, you could choose the traps to disarm for the experience ( if you also have the stick loot card and good reflexes, thats a +8 to disarm a trap. with a four or better that beats any trap).
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isgreen.jpgTake the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/playmagic/whatcolorareyou.asp)

Go team cleric!

[prj]

If you get Vs second magic missile, and the old scroll, thats already a +7 to defense

1 (from the first shtick) + 2 (boost from the second shtick) + 2 (boost from the scroll) = 5. To get Magic Missile to 7, you'll need Get Angry, assistance, or Secrets That Would Drive You MAD! against a Creepy-Crawly.


If you can get all the lightning bolts and a get angry screw this card thats a +9 to attack, making V the strongest player if Elan has all four bardsongs and if you give Elan the loot fun. That makes your attack higher than Roys easy (although you need to rest).

Well, if you let Roy have a Get Angry too, then he's up to 8, or 10 with the Starmetal Chunk. I'd prefer Roy, especially when playing in teams - you can get assistance from your teammates (without giving away points) for the first monster or two if you need it, and then Great Cleavage will carry you through the rest of the stack.


( if you also have the stick loot card and good reflexes, thats a +8 to disarm a trap. with a four or better that beats any trap).

Nope. The Stick and Good Reflexes only help for your Evade rolls, not your Disarm rolls.

[Rumtummy]

Perhaps a house-rule switching Blackwing with Ambiguous Gender as a starting schtick?i was thinking about a house rule allowing Var to set aside either Blackwing or Elven Senses Tingling before shuffling and then putting the chosen card back on top. i've decided against the EST card because even if it is way more powerful than an early game one in four chance to not be pvp'd when noone's pving anyway... well, it's way more powerful. last thing i want is Var overpowered and nudging loot doesn't feel like a stretch.

still not sure if "top of stack" rather than "starting card" is really a better overall deal. it's almost begging you to chuck three drooly loot for the top card draw before XXX and maybe having to choose between Blackwing, Fireball and Lightning Bolt: what super important necessary spell goes to the bottom of the stack forever? i'm just going by the theory that surgical deck stacking is less an affront to expert play-tested game balance than assuredly starting with that card.

all in all, i'd have been happier if Blackwing was somehow two cards (Boost: +1 loot for Fireball?) because of how vital it feels. heh, or if AG boosted Magic Missile. that might keep me from putting a red sharpie marker boarder around the second Magic Missle if house rules don't work out hehe. oh well, eagerly awaiting expansion decks.

anyone else have a Var nudge they'd thought about? (remember, you have to play AGAINST him too!)

[Damionte]

We havn't had a chance to play with all of the characters at once but we've played every character so far.

Belkar sucks.
Elan is too strong.

That's about what we've gotten out of it.

It's been a fun little game , but now that we understand the imbalance no one really wants to play that much anymore. We roll off to see who get's what characters and if you get belkar you end up pouting for the whole game. :)

[Totally Guy]

What I was thinking is a variant where you trade loot faces for shticks as normal but when you trade monsters for shticks then you have an opponent choose the shtick for you.

This way you play the characters using their more obscure shticks and rounded abilities. It should slow down Roy and Haley by getting non stacking weapon shticks and not affect Belkar and Vaarsuvius to such a degree as they have fewer useless shticks as I find them to be quite tactical characters.

My worry is that it will slow down an already slow game. I just need to get my brothers to play again... we played it all the time over our last christmas holiday.

[Rumtummy]

Belkar sucks.
Elan is too strong.

i've played ONE game where elan was strongest and that was because he got a lucky verbal boost loot and his second xtreme diplomacy within the first floor. without his high defense elan has regularly had to follow people around like a loot vulture which is almost counter intuitive.

if belkar is having trouble you have to think of him like people keep saying to play V: use range to take out stacks other people couldn't. also, Surprise cards especially when you bribe other people to play it with the thought of you giving them drooly loot to help kill it. gain shticks before you pvp.

i'm more concerned with V. why is magic missle is so wimpy? where most players have two separate base shticks that can be upgraded in sympathy with each other (longbow + sneak attack, etc) there are only two MM in V's deck: you basically spend an extra loot per monster with much less then half the chance to be upgraded. fireball is ...fireball.
Vaarsuvius ... have fewer useless shticksSTWDYM needs another monster type. PAP's "against Magic Shticks" is a joke (oh no it's Roy's +0 bag of tricks!). ESToFI better serves you by being sharpie marker edited as another Buff Spell but even then i have issues (why flip?).

i have tried V with Blackwing stacked on top of the deck with no luck. we had just stopped playing him altogether. i think next time i can get atleast four of us at the table i'll try replacing magic missle with lightning bolt. ambiguous gender and ESToFI may accidentally not make it into the deck. Protective spell may get sharpie edited to boost: draw 1 loot (but only since the wording looks like it doesnt protect you from fireball).

i should probably start a Vaarsuvius thread with my concerns but i'm not sure i'll be checking back here much. hope to hear of an expansion or 2nd edition soon. ;)

[prj]

We havn't had a chance to play with all of the characters at once but we've played every character so far.

Belkar sucks.
Elan is too strong.


Note that the character balance changes significantly depending on the number of players. In smaller games, Elan and Durkon won't collect as much loot from other players, and Vaarsuvius and Belkar won't be able to take over other players' lost battles as often. Play to your character's strengths, but keep in mind how the number of players affects what your strengths are.


We roll off to see who get's what characters and if you get belkar you end up pouting for the whole game. :)

If you're not playing with six people, and none of you like Belkar, you could decide up front that Belkar will be an NPC.

[djchrisblue]

I know anecdotal evidence isn't like the most statistically significant, but I played my first game as Belkar and won the game with a score of about 40 with the trailing player at 30. Belkar is pretty good, I didn't even attack more than one person. I probably should have, although I did threaten to; schadenfreude kept my life up, I had some amulet or other, rage and my bonus to dragons let me kill some bigger stuff and and leaping attacks let me kill the rest. Fun game!

peace