Can you make a true Master of Nine without using items or non-initiator class levels?

[danielxcutter]

The PrC Master of Nine from ToB sounds cool, but none of the threads I found can make a "true" Master of Nine with all the nine-level maneuvers - at least not without using slightly cheap tricks. I do subscribe to the theory that PrCs apply to all initiator levels, but otherwise I have no idea. Martial Study has a three-time limit so... a little help here? No retraining, but this is not an optimized PC build. It's for a high-level NPC.

If it is completely impossible without epic levels, then please turn your attention to the following:

1)If you do go into epic levels, how would you do it? I haven't seen any rules for epic-level initiators or their epic-level PrCs, so either keep the class levels non-epic, even if their sum results do result in such, or give me a valid source for epic-level initiators.

2)Even if you cannot make a "true" Master of Nine, I'd still like it if you could balance both the quality and the quantity of the nine schools as much as possible. For example, having 5 White Raven maneuvers but only 1 or 2 of the other schools is bad, but 2 or 3 of each with relatively similar maneuver levels(no more than three between the highest and the lowest) is good. And of course, one from each school at least.

[weckar]

You realize the 'nine' refers to the nine disciplines right? Not the nine levels?

[Zaydos]

So you need to gain 9 maneuvers in your last 4 levels (which need to be Mo9 or at least some do).

Mo9 grants 6 in 4 levels, and doesn't have text to allow swapping. Maybe 3 levels of Mo9 (5) in the last and a level of Swordsage if it's even you get 2 (1 + 1 swapped). That leaves you needing Martial Study twice at 17th+ level. That's also assuming you somehow grabbed the 11 non-swordsage maneuvers you'd need prior to 17th level.

22nd level it is doable.

Swordsage 4/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 11/Mo9 5.

Swordsage picks up 5 desert wind, 4 diamond mind, 5 Setting Sun, 5 Shadow Hand, and 4 Tiger Claw. Crusader grabs 3 devoted spirit, and Warblade 4 Iron Heart, and between the two of them 4 White Raven.

Now this is tricky. You need 23 Swordsage maneuvers, but between maneuvers and stances you get 25. You get 6 Crusader and by taking it at 5th level you can pick up 2nd level maneuvers letting you get 2 White Raven and 3 Devoted Spirit and a 3rd white raven in the form of a stance. Warblade gets 4 and at 6th can pick up Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Steely Strike, and Wall of Blades. That leaves you with 2 Swordsage maneuvers you aren't using, and needing 1 extra White Raven maneuver. Pick up WRT via Martial Study (or use Martial Stance to grab something). You enter Mo9 at level 18 with an IL of 17, you grab any 2 9ths you want since you qualify for them all, and take Martial Study for a 3rd one. At 20th you have 6 9th, and 22nd you have all 9. Since Mo9 doesn't progress the base class in any way and you aren't taking any class above 20th you don't need epic progressions to be written out.

Pre-epic you drop 2 Swordsage levels, and have roughly 4-5 maneuvers of each discipline, but only 6 of the level 9 ones.

[danielxcutter]

You realize the 'nine' refers to the nine disciplines right? Not the nine levels?

Uh, obviously. I'm not that much of a noob.


So you need to gain 9 maneuvers in your last 4 levels (which need to be Mo9 or at least some do).

Mo9 grants 6 in 4 levels, and doesn't have text to allow swapping. Maybe 3 levels of Mo9 (5) in the last and a level of Swordsage if it's even you get 2 (1 + 1 swapped). That leaves you needing Martial Study twice at 17th+ level. That's also assuming you somehow grabbed the 11 non-swordsage maneuvers you'd need prior to 17th level.

22nd level it is doable.

Swordsage 4/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 11/Mo9 5.

Swordsage picks up 5 desert wind, 4 diamond mind, 5 Setting Sun, 5 Shadow Hand, and 4 Tiger Claw. Crusader grabs 3 devoted spirit, and Warblade 4 Iron Heart, and between the two of them 4 White Raven.

Now this is tricky. You need 23 Swordsage maneuvers, but between maneuvers and stances you get 25. You get 6 Crusader and by taking it at 5th level you can pick up 2nd level maneuvers letting you get 2 White Raven and 3 Devoted Spirit and a 3rd white raven in the form of a stance. Warblade gets 4 and at 6th can pick up Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Steely Strike, and Wall of Blades. That leaves you with 2 Swordsage maneuvers you aren't using, and needing 1 extra White Raven maneuver. Pick up WRT via Martial Study (or use Martial Stance to grab something). You enter Mo9 at level 18 with an IL of 17, you grab any 2 9ths you want since you qualify for them all, and take Martial Study for a 3rd one. At 20th you have 6 9th, and 22nd you have all 9. Since Mo9 doesn't progress the base class in any way and you aren't taking any class above 20th you don't need epic progressions to be written out.

Pre-epic you drop 2 Swordsage levels, and have roughly 4-5 maneuvers of each discipline, but only 6 of the level 9 ones.

Great! I was worried that the ECL would be over 30 or something, but 22, while still sky-high, is still low enough to keep under control with the plans I have. And without epic progression. I never thought someone would answer this fast with such a complete plan, but good thing I was wrong!

[Darrin]

My Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers) build addresses this, and it has links to the other methods, but some of those links might need to be dug out of the Wayback machine. However, the build relies on Legacy Champion to accelerate Initiator Level, and not everyone agrees on how the mechanics of that should work.

Heaven of Nine was my first attempt, and it almost gets there without any IL tricks, but it winds up just a couple maneuvers short. If flaws, retraining, psychic reformation, or Dark Chaos Shuffle is allowed, you can swap around the feats to make it work. I'll see if I can dig up a good link for it later.