Paladin optimization

[Ethernil]

I m starting a new group, dming for the first time. Here is the deal:

I have 4 players, not really optimizers but mostly rpers. They picked dwarf cleric, human rogue and indecisive arcane caster, possibly sorcerer. Now the last guy really wants to play a paladin, no crusader etc, maybe some dip or prc but the character has to be mostly paladin. I want to help him optimize so that I don't have a hard time tailoring the campaign trying to balance top tiers with a paladin.

I ve considered suggesting either an über mount halfling outrider build or an initiate of millil singing paladin. Any ideas?

[Soranar]

If you drop the haflling outrider, and just play a paladin of milil on a riding dog, your guy should do fine.

Mounted ubercharging is strong enough to get the job done, he won't need to pull an ubermount to be useful

Consider the Feat serenity (makes all paladin abilities Wisdom based so no need for CHA)

Alternative to Serenity is to drop spellcasting altogether (you get bonus feats instead), that lets you dump WIS and you can concentrate on CHA

[Canine]

Presuming you are talking 3.5 and not PF, I'd recommend Battle Blessing (Complete Champion), and be sure to mine Complete Champion and Spell Compendium for spells. They started figuring out how to write better paladin spells by then. Also worth looking in to some of the Devotion feats from CC, so the paladin has a better use for his turning attempts.

[Eldariel]

Well, one thing that does help Paladin a lot is Illumian with the Aeshkrau Sigil. This allows them to derive their bonus spells off Strength which should be considerable; allows for a good number of bonus spells without having to invest in Wisdom. Of course, this is mostly higher up. Can be combined Sword of Arcane Order for rather considerable casting power (all no-save spells such as buffs and utility of course - save DCs are still Wis-based and thus useless). And yeah, Initiate of Milil is fine with all the Inspire Courage optimization that ordains. It fits a Paladin fine, being the beacon of inspiration for the party anyways.

Though frankly, I've always been baffled by how people are so swayed by names: Paladin and Lawful Good Cleric built martially are essentially the same thing mechanically except the Cleric is better, and LG Crusader and Paladin are virtually identical fluff-wise.


EDIT: A-Game Paladin thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457144-Repost-A-Game-Paladin-20-Bardic-Music-Paladin-Build)

[Ethernil]

We re talking straight 3.5, no PF. The game starts at level 1. I have left all classes open except psionics because they are the only books i haven't had the time to study. We roll for stats, 4d6 keep top 3, rolling 2 rows keeping one. If the outcome is utter crap i ll allow a third row. I wanted to go for point buy but the players insist on rolling.

I believe abandoning spell casting for 3 or 4 limited feats isn't worth it. Serenity is from dragon magazine right? I dunno if i should use stuff from those.The paladin can just start with a 12 wisdom or buy a periapt and he is covered with a 10 and it is my plan to have him use charisma outside combat too as the party face.
Basically there are feats and acfs for both Mystra and Milil that are very strong, though belong to different churches, i think he ll like Milil more for the flavor.
Battle blessing seems very strong too, probably a lvl 12 feat?
As mounts go i believe that unless the paladin gets some boosting acf or feat for a better mount like a drakensteed it would be better to dump it for the charging smite acf.

I will be using the general wbl guidelines, maybe slightly favoring the weakest party members.

[weckar]

Question here is: what can you make the Paladin do that the Cleric doesn't do better?

Depending on the sorcerer, it looks like this party may need a face. At that point, a Marshal dip (or double-dip) can make the Paladin shine through their charisma and constantly buff the party at the same time.

From there, basically drag out everything that makes charisma worth having - and there's a lot out there.

I actually recall a magic item out there somewhere that buffs all your charisma based rolls. As a Paladin, that includes all your saves.

EDIT: what I'd like to know is why you don't think the Rogue needs help. In this particular party I see no real flanking buddy for him at all.

[One Step Two]

As you are the DM, one thing that you can do is just straight up say: "paladins use Cha as a casting stat" to save him a feat and some MAD issues.

That said, what sort of campaign are you running? Is it a dungeon crawl, or open wprld where he can use his mount?

[Eldariel]

I believe abandoning spell casting for 3 or 4 limited feats isn't worth it. Serenity is from dragon magazine right? I dunno if i should use stuff from those.The paladin can just start with a 12 wisdom or buy a periapt and he is covered with a 10 and it is my plan to have him use charisma outside combat too as the party face.

He'll need decent Int for the skillpoints for that. Default Pally only has 2+Int and virtually requires Concentration as a frontline caster. This is the classic Paladin problem of needing decent stats across the board.


Basically there are feats and acfs for both Mystra and Milil that are very strong, though belong to different churches, i think he ll like Milil more for the flavor.

Well, you can relax the requirements a bit and let him take both and see the end result. That said, out of those two, Milil is indeed probably slightly better.


Battle blessing seems very strong too, probably a lvl 12 feat?

Honestly, it should almost be taken as soon as possible. It makes Paladin casting real good.


As mounts go i believe that unless the paladin gets some boosting acf or feat for a better mount like a drakensteed it would be better to dump it for the charging smite acf.

Charging Smite is unfortunately terrible. It only works when you're Smiting, and you only get 5 smites per day on level 20. That's not 5 full attacks of smite, that's 5 individual attacks. Or a single full attack's worth. Then add the requirement of having to Charge to get anything out of that and you'll very rarely get to use Charging Smite even 2 times per day. And even when you do, it's not doing much.

Much better is the Divine Spirit ACF from Dungeonscape. Those spirits actually do stuff; last for a whole fight and give you plenty of good benefits, can summon each once per day. Though Mounts can be rather powerful as well if built to that end.

[Ethernil]

As you are the DM, one thing that you can do is just straight up say: "paladins use Cha as a casting stat" to save him a feat and some MAD issues.

That said, what sort of campaign are you running? Is it a dungeon crawl, or open wprld where he can use his mount?

There will be 2 or 3 dungeons throughout the campaign but at least 75% will be open world, with a lot of traveling. I believe i ll houserule out several teleportation magic. I have designed naval combats and one on an airship and i don't like the scry and die kind of play.

[One Step Two]

There will be 2 or 3 dungeons throughout the campaign but at least 75% will be open world, with a lot of traveling. I believe i ll houserule out several teleportation magic. I have designed naval combats and one on an airship and i don't like the scry and die kind of play.

Alright, I'm AFB at the moment so I can't lay down a full build yet. But at the moment he fills the Party's beatstick/tank role. If you want to give him some serious power that can push him further, there's the high one warrior wizards from the champions of valor web enhancement that makes for one decidedly interesting mounted gish when combined with the Theurgic Mount feat.

[Kaje]

I'll second the A-Game Paladin. Makes heavy use of ACFs to buff better than a bard.

[Ethernil]

I'll second the A-Game Paladin. Makes heavy use of ACFs to buff better than a bard.

I wont allow both paladin orders to the same character. I guess milil is better, maybe draconic aura would be nice too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He could be a paladin -and- a crusader; Ruby Knight Vindicator ftw. You can waive the deity requirement if he doesn't want to be tied to Wee Jas. Battle blessing makes it so his pally spells aren't competing with (most of) his maneuvers for actions. It's a fun, solid holy warrior build, IMO.

[Flickerdart]

I m starting a new group, dming for the first time. Here is the deal:

I have 4 players, not really optimizers but mostly rpers. They picked dwarf cleric, human rogue and indecisive arcane caster, possibly sorcerer. Now the last guy really wants to play a paladin, no crusader etc, maybe some dip or prc but the character has to be mostly paladin. I want to help him optimize so that I don't have a hard time tailoring the campaign trying to balance top tiers with a paladin.

I ve considered suggesting either an über mount halfling outrider build or an initiate of millil singing paladin. Any ideas?
Give the paladin a good mount. The guidelines in the DMG are CR=level-3 (or level-4 if it flies). So a 5th level halfling paladin's riding dog is actually behind the curve, and the paladin can have a CR2 mount like a blink dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm). Actually, the list is quite long - black bears, cheetahs, dire badgers and weasels, wolverines, wererats, leopards, giant soldier ants...

But wait, isn't it inappropriate for a Lawful Evil were-rat to serve a paladin? Haha, don't be ridiculous, this is a CR-based calculation, meaning that adding some templates is free. A Celestial Dire Were-rat has the same CR as a regular Dire Were-rat. There are more templates like Warbeast or Unseelie Fey that you can apply, and then correct the alignment if necessary using Celestial.

As long as you are supplying a good mount, the paladin's build can be whatever you want.

[dascarletm]

Since you are the DM, you could import pathfinder's paladin. It makes smite and lay-on hands better. If you couple that with 3.5's options like battle blessing etc. the character should stack up pretty well I think (in terms of not feeling useless or weak).

[Eldariel]

I wont allow both paladin orders to the same character. I guess milil is better, maybe draconic aura would be nice too.

Perhaps you could reconsider from a mechanical standpoint? The class is already underpowered, some handwaving to add some Bard-versatility onto the Paladin won't break anything. You could easily write Mystra's things into Milil or Milil's things into Mystra: the end-result is a very Bardish Paladin anyways (access to some arcane spells, slightly sub-Bard but above-Paladin spellcasting and Bardic music). You could easily write an order for that.

That said, if you force the choice, Milil is unfortunately the way you have to go. Losing the access to Wizard-spells with Sword of the Arcane Order + a spell per level is huge and limits the class a lot but Inspire Courage is still a decent way to actually get the martial combat numbers high enough to get the job done. And it's not like Paladin-spells are bad: just much more limited than Wizard-spells. Fewer buffs, much less utility (notably Paladin-list has a dearth of tactical teleportation for a melee character; Knight's Move is about the best option - also, their flight options aren't the best) and in general, a restricted spell list. The worse part is losing a spell per level though. Pally doesn't have too many to start with so that really helps.


On the flipside, you get to keep Turn Undead and have a feat to waste so you could pick up a divine or a devotion feat: Divine Might, Divine Spell Power, Divine Metamagic, Animal Devotion, Divine Shield (okay in conjunction with Shield Ward), Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, there are a few good options on what to do with this resource. Mind, you can't really afford Charisma that high so purely Charisma-based stuff isn't as impressive as it might look at a glance. For action efficiency, I might actually look at Law Devotion myself. Takes only one action, lasts for a fight, good varied bonuses.

[Soranar]

A few things

the serenity feat was reprinted in dragon compendium so it's considered an official source

battle blessing is a mixed blessing IMO, a lot of paladin spells are normally swift actions anyway and a lot of times you'd cast the spell outside combat so it's often a waste

the extra feats vs paladin spells is debatable: some feat combinations are better than spells, some spells are better than feats. As I explain further it often depends on what your group needs.

speaking of swift actions, a crusader or warblade dip + the song of the white raven means inspire courage becomes a swift action

this is especially attractive since it gives you the ever useful stance, especially if you delay taking that dip until level 9 or so

Since paladins ususally need their swift actions to cast spells, I recommend either casting spells or concentrating on inspire courage. Both options are useful but some parties really need secondary casters while other groups have some many casters paladin spells are a waste of space

[Ethernil]

I don't want to give him access to both paladin orders for lore reasons, not balance. I could rule that he gets inspire courage as swift action.
Oh and even though the mystra spell casting seems very good you have to dump turn undead, which is also very good (ok he won't persist insane cleric buffs but animal and travel devotions are very nice imo).

As for playing another class and calling it palladin it is the player's option to stick with vanilla paladin. Even without using ToB fist of raziel looks like a strict upgrade, but he wants to be paladiny paladin of the paladinius paladinum order.

[Eldariel]

I don't want to give him access to both paladin orders for lore reasons, not balance. I could rule that he gets inspire courage as swift action.
Oh and even though the mystra spell casting seems very good you have to dump turn undead, which is also very good (ok he won't persist insane cleric buffs but animal and travel devotions are very nice imo).

As for playing another class and calling it palladin it is the player's option to stick with vanilla paladin. Even without using ToB fist of raziel looks like a strict upgrade, but he wants to be paladiny paladin of the paladinius paladinum order.

Well, as you most certainly know, fluff =/= crunch. Being Palatine Paladin Palantinius from the Court of Holy Charles le Mange himself is fully possible regardless of whether the character sheet says Cleric, Paladin or Crusader (or hell, Fighter).

That said, since given what we have, you wish to enable him to play the class but do not wish to refluff the Orders (if you refluffed Sword of the Arcane Order, that could help a lot too). Let's see what we can get:
- What's the starting level? Paladin is one of the classes that really needs a couple of levels underneath their belt before they do anything (I've personally played a Paladin from level 1 - the stat spread combined with only a single Smite's worth of class features is not conductive to awesome). 1st level Paladins are quite meh. Well, Milil's Harmonious Order Paladin is ever-so-slightly less so, but the chassis still only offers 1 Inspire Courage per day on level 1 and lacks natural access to Inspirational Boost, has to wait until level 6 for Song of the Heart, level 15 (!!) for Words of Creation due to the base Will save requirement. Most of their important class features; spells, special mount/divine spirit & Turn Undead/replacements begin to come online around 4-6.
- Has he rolled for stats yet? Since your group insists on rolling, his options are shaped by his stats. E.g. Words of Creation are incredible Inspire Courage/Greatness to shine but require 15 Int and 15 Cha. Similarly, Power Attack requires 13 Str and his earlier casting requires preferably around 12 starting Wis. And as a melee character, he really wants 14+ Con. With great rolls, this can actually work. It just so happens the class desperately needs more skill points so Int serves that end as well. Ideally I'd say something like 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, 12 Wis, 16 Cha or so (well, ideally 18 Str but rolling an 18 in such a high array would already be a bit ridiculous). Dex is pretty much the only possible weak stat but of course, that kinda sucks on a low level melee before armor is affordable, so preferably at least 10 there.
- Is he set on race? Like I said, as per A-Game Pally, Illumian makes the Pally spellcasting significantly more usable particularly without Mystic Fire Knight. It gives you some of the missing caster level back (combined with Mystic Fire Knight it would very nearly put you on par with a full caster) and ensure sufficient slot availability since you can focus on Strength-pumping and get extra spell slots outta it in the process (hell, you might even get ~22 Strength by level 8 which would mean two bonus 2nd level slots), but it comes at the cost of being a weird dude with sigils floating around your head (albeit sigils providing nice boons).


One option is of course to use the Turning to fuel Divine Spell Power in order to make up for the lost caster level or even to go above and beyond the +2 and get actually high caster level in the works (Krau-sigil Illumian with +4 Divine Spell Power and Practiced Spellcaster on level 20 would be able to cast at caster level 20, nice for spells such as Greater Magic Weapon; of course, Pallies don't get Magic Vestment for...whatever reason). Makes the spells not-quite-trivial to dispel and keeps Pally casting relevant. Sadly they still don't get stuff like Greater Dispel Magic, Magic Vestment, Revivify, Heal or such that you'd think would be shoe-ins into the level 4 slots but c'est la vie. Favor of the Martyr is a nice one though as is Holy Sword.

[TheifofZ]

Sadly they still don't get stuff like Greater Dispel Magic, Magic Vestment, Revivify, Heal or such that you'd think would be shoe-ins into the level 4 slots but c'est la vie. Favor of the Martyr is a nice one though as is Holy Sword.

Gee, it's almost like paladins don't get powerful spells because they aren't primary spellcasters and are more specialized in their spell selection than most other casters, or something.
That sounds like an awful good reason they don't get those fancy shmancy high level spells that other full casting progression classes have to me.


That quip out of the way; Paladin is horribly, horribly gimped without a lot of work.
The class gets a slew of sub-par abilities (Smite evil 5/day at 20. Add Cha as your bonus to hit, and 20 damage to that hit. 5/day. Fighters get similar bonuses as their level 1 through 3 feats, and those are on all the time.) and immunity to... diseases. How nice.
Meanwhile, Clerics get full spell progression, and Fighters have more bonus feats than a Paladin can shake a stick at.
And Paladins need every stat except for Dexterity.
Str? Melee class. Yes.
Con? Health. Saves. Melee Class. Yes.
Dex? Heavy armor. Nope.
Int? 2 skills/level. Good LORD yes.
Wis? Casting stat. Yes.
Cha? Every class ability you have that isn't casting runs off this. Yes.

If you're seriously going to say "Let me do what I can to help this player have a better time" and then say "but I'm not willing to refluff things I didn't even have in the campaign until this discussion" then you need to take a deep breath.

There's a bunch of stuff that's already been said, but I'd just like to point out that trading away spellcasting from a half progression casting class for a bunch of feats that could be useful (and powerful) removes one of the Paladin's 'needed' stats, allowing slightly less MAD, and lending more 'always on' power, rather than the dubious trade off of using actions to cast paladin spells while in melee

[Eldariel]

Gee, it's almost like paladins don't get powerful spells because they aren't primary spellcasters and are more specialized in their spell selection than most other casters, or something.
That sounds like an awful good reason they don't get those fancy shmancy high level spells that other full casting progression classes have to me.

It's one thing to not get something like Holy Word or Earthquake or Miracle and another not to get the "midrange capstone" spells in your specialty: like, you're a divine warrior, why the hell aren't you getting Magic Vestment? And Heal would make a perfectly sensible capstone; it's still way more expensive for you as a 4th level spell than it is as a 6th level spell for Clerics but a Pally being able to Heal properly from level 16 onwards would be at least something. And of course, the only reason they don't get Greater Dispel Magic is because Wizards didn't foresee how many ways to buff the half-caster caster levels they'd add to their own game so they thought they'd have no use for it but now that they do, it does suck. It still wouldn't make them caster-levels in versatility but at least slightly less far behind of Bards.

And no, even then, feats are never nearly as good as spells.

[animewatcha]

Looking at what the paladin gets as a base for abilities. Bloodline levels ( that didn't count towards ECL, if you wanna debate this - please take it elsewhere ) taken at 1st level so he wound only be a few thousand xp behind would benefit many of base class abilities. I'd imagine that they can cross over into many ACFs as well.

[Soranar]

Ok, I'm getting a bit annoyed at the ''feats are never as good as spells'' comments so I'd just like to point out 2 builds

Option 1, the buffer paladin

-is a warforged dragonborn holy warrior with the divine spirit ACF

-trades away lay on hands, divine grace, spellcasting and his mount

you now need STR and CON , maybe some INT (your build works fine with a 28 pts buy)

you get about 16 STR, 20 CON and 14 INT

you don't need spellcraft, concentration (no spellcasting) , handle animal (no mount),diplomacy (you dumped CHA) or ride (no mount) though sense motive can be useful

-you need some perform
-5 cross class balance
-the rest can go in situational skills like jump / swim etc


key feats: from smite to song, draconic aura (boosts senses), travel devotion, lingering song, mage slayer, pierce magical concealment

-you boost yourself and the party with inspire courage +x to hit and damage
-you also boost yourself and the party through divine spirit (sacred +x to hit and damage)
-you also boost yourself and the party through your aura (+x to listen/spot/initiative)
-you have ex flight (dragonborn) reach (reach weapon) and you are a huge pain to any enemy spellcaster you threaten (mage slayer feats) did I mention you move as a swift action (travel devotion)
-finally your bonus feats can give you more turn undead to fuel those feats or extra smites for more songs

Party roles: -buffer, tank, pain in the mage's ...

Sure you have a niche but at least you do your part well and you're immune to nearly everything so you're the perfect meat shield

Now the A game paladin

needs every STAT except DEX
is completely feat starved
has plenty of actions he can take, each and every one of them is inferior to a specialized character
-a caster (arcane or divine) will do everything this guy can do better
-buffing yourself and only yourself (through polymorph or alter self) is not optimal with a character that spent no feats on his combat style
-your spell slots are quite far (delayed spellcasting and slow progression) and by the time you get polymorph the campaign is most likely over
-stuck playing an illumian with no template, giving him no immunities to speak of and a weak will saves oddly enough
-his mount is arguably more useful to the party than he is

[darkdragoon]

The singing Paladin's lack of uses and most likely a hit in Perform take a big chunk out of what it does. Also do note that most of the builds that try it end up needing actual Bard and stuff like Knight of the Weave which use spellcasting.

You're also limiting Divine Spirit by not having Lay on Hands. Not to mention the items like Caduceus Bracers.

Flying+draconic aura plus a couple other minor perks can by gained by a particular special mount trade rather than putting yourself through some template hoops. Which could also be boosted by another ACF.

Similarly, anti mage Paladins are pretty much Mystic Fire Knights.

Holy Warrior is pretty limited outside of getting Divine Might ASAP, but it you're moving away from Cha it's not as useful.

TLDR you're going for anti-synergy the likes of which Monks laugh at.


Charging Smite on the other hand, not only adds more damage to Smites, it also keeps them from being wasted on a whiff.

[Ethernil]

The entire group doesn't like changing the fluff, not just me. And I find the take a deep breath comment mildly offensive when there is no need for such kind of attitude.

I have decided to integrate quick action inspire courage into initiate of millil and also make paladin levels work for songs per day. That should be a decent boost.

We are playing on faerun so no warforged, not that he wants to play anything but human.

On a different matter, I had forgotten how good knight of the weave is.

[animewatcha]

Faerun, right? So within the book of, I believe, magic of faerun. There is an item called Mask of flight. It let you can fly at will ( CL 5th so 5 minutes a pop ). Unlimited each day for 13k. This can take care of flight for the paladin.

[Ethernil]

Faerun, right? So within the book of, I believe, magic of faerun. There is an item called Mask of flight. It let you can fly at will ( CL 5th so 5 minutes a pop ). Unlimited each day for 13k. This can take care of flight for the paladin.

The wizard will be going into war weaver so he will be buffing the group with stuff like fly and haste. He doesn't like blasting, said he wants to play support and has a thing for save or dies which i m perfectly fine with, if i find him power creeping i ll use enemies with better saves. The cleric on the other hand hates healing and will only do it to save someone from dying or so, i expect him to focus on damage dealing though his optimization skills are, pardon for the language, sheet.

[animewatcha]

The mask lets you do it as if you can cast it. As in the paladin can fly everyone in the party and save wizard a spell slot.

[Fizban]

Charging Smite is unfortunately terrible. It only works when you're Smiting, and you only get 5 smites per day on level 20. That's not 5 full attacks of smite, that's 5 individual attacks. Or a single full attack's worth. Then add the requirement of having to Charge to get anything out of that and you'll very rarely get to use Charging Smite even 2 times per day. And even when you do, it's not doing much.
On a non smiting build sure, but someone actually built for smiting will naturally get more use out of it. Take a copy of Extra Smite, into Fist of Raziel, with smite boosting items and remembering that every point of attack bonus is more you can dump into Power Attack, and that you're only one person on a team of four and are not required to provide all damage yourself.

Give the paladin a good mount. The guidelines in the DMG are CR=level-3 (or level-4 if it flies). So a 5th level halfling paladin's riding dog is actually behind the curve, and the paladin can have a CR2 mount like a blink dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm). Actually, the list is quite long - black bears, cheetahs, dire badgers and weasels, wolverines, wererats, leopards, giant soldier ants...
It has been said in the past that Special Mount is the Paladin's best class feature, and this is why. Paladins past 5th level don't ride horses, they ride Dire Wolves, Unicorns, Rhinoceri, Pegusai, or Griffons. The way the mount table and effective paladin level adjustment works, there is no penalty for having the strongest mount available, it just delays the bonuses so they cap at 18th like most class abilities instead of 15th, and Rhinos and Griffons are waaay better than horses.

All of that said, might I go just a little off the trend and suggest: well if the rest of your players aren't optimisers, have you considered the possibility that you don't need to significantly optimize the Paladin?

It's easy for a caster to suddenly overpower the game, and it's just as easy to knock them back down a peg. But when you optimize a non-caster you build in stuff that's always there, even if can be "turned off" like Power Attack the fact that the character is built to do a powerful thing and you're simply not-doing so is far more grating than a spellcaster who memorizes a slightly less game breaking set of spells.

I would make sure the Paladin has basic melee feats and stats, maybe a knightly substitution if wanted, and call it good. If it turns out they're not strong enough, you can easily take them from lame Heavy Warhorse to bone crushing Rhino or Griffon in but a moment, no feats are required to use a lance, nor are any required to buy a Valorous lance, and so on. But if he starts with a lazer optimized build, and it turns out the rest of the table is not playing their classes to full potential and the Paladin is actually over-optimized, fixing that is going to be more annoying.

Edit: and then I see you'll be having a War Weaver, well that's a bit more than unoptimized. And if your cleric never wants to cast healing spells, I'll suggest a Paladin fix: Lay on Hands should heal your full hp total the same way it does for a Guardinal. This means it's actually worth more than one healing spell (until much later), though it should probably not be combined with the Dungeonscape spirits ACF.

[Vizzerdrix]

Serenity is from dragon magazine right? I dunno if i should use stuff from those.

If you do, one of the books has chocobos listed as an alternative pally mount. :smallsmile:

[Ethernil]

I was wondering, a paladin with the mystra ACFs and sword of the arcane order feat in the build: paladin 10, knight of the weave 10...

As sword of the arcane order states your caster level for arcane spells is equal to the sum of your wizard ranger and paladin right? So that means arcane caster level 10, which according to knight of the weave boosts your kotw caster level to 20, right? Though that adds intelligence and makes the build mad.. I m trying to find a charisma synergy build based on paladin, preferably in shining (heavy) armor.

On a different matter, with the paladin-ranger ubermoun builds that let you designate your animal companion as your special mount, do you have to summon it as with the normal special mount? So that you lose access to your companion for long intervals?