using path of war as a DM?

[Swaoeaeieu]

i really like Path of War, and as a DM i want to start using it in my campaign. But my players arent as enthousiastic as me. two have looked it over and chose not to use it. three others never really read it at all.
i kinda want to introduce them to the wonderfull world of initiators by using it on some apponents, but with all the dmg boosters out there i dont want to immediatly atomize them with a full initiator bossfight. Also, characters with initiator classes often come with a bit more book keeping, and as a DM i have enough of that already, is there a way to simplefy npc with maneuvers for my brains sake?

what do you guys suggest? i would love to hear how other DM's handle the system or how players would like to encounter these type of things.
thanks in advance!

[Knitifine]

Give some NPCs the Martial Training 1 feat.

[umbrapolaris]

Make the boss an initiator , and let him own your players, they will change mind :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

Don't use it. If your players aren't interested in the system - and there are good reasons not to be - then don't just go "Well, since you didn't want to play as sword-mage pretending to be sword-warrior, I'll have to throw some sword-mages pretending to be sword-warriors at you!" If they're not interested now, they're not suddenly going to be interested when you just chuck stuff from it on your NPCs.

[Fizban]

I'd suggest giving NPCs dips and grabbing maneuvers that let you do things you normally can't, but which aren't so strong it'll bowl them over. Dunno about Path of War, but the most obvious examples from ToB are Wolf Fang Strike and Mountain Hammer, two maneuvers that are just plain better than move+attack but not by a ton. I would avoid maneuvers that seriously mess with them, like forced movement. But if they're bugged by fighting against it then it probably is best to scrap the whole thing, at that point they've sent a clear message that they want their combat to be ? power and dependent on class/ACF/feat mixing rather than it's own system.

[Eldariel]

Don't use it. If your players aren't interested in the system - and there are good reasons not to be - then don't just go "Well, since you didn't want to play as sword-mage pretending to be sword-warrior, I'll have to throw some sword-mages pretending to be sword-warriors at you!" If they're not interested now, they're not suddenly going to be interested when you just chuck stuff from it on your NPCs.

This isn't necessarily true. Seeing something in action can be quite different from just reading it in the book. Plus it's objectively a more interactive & nuanced system than the default, so experiencing it should do a good job of selling it.

To the OP: As others have suggested, an initiator boss could work. Taking it a step further, you could introduce a hostile/friendly organization with its warriors utilizing those techniques. That gives you the tools to show how to fluff it as desired and how it works in practice.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i think i might need to clear up my wording in the OP...
My players chose not to use PoW not because they didnt like it. One is playing a psychic warrior, saying adding maneuvers to it would be too much gish. The other read some maneuvers and stated ''I dont really see how this would work/what it would do for the game'' and has told me he might want to see it in action, but not use it himself. One player is playing a sorcerer, so didnt really seem interested.
its more that the players thought it would be cool, but wanted to see proof of concept before reading all those new things for themself. So for me as a DM i wanted to try and introduce it with npc's

so thanks for the reminder, as a DM i dont need to be pushy about stuff i like. but in this case i do want to show them this stuff.

as for the other tips, thank you! i am statting up a level 4 warder as a bossfight, using maneuvers that add options instead of just dmg.

[stack]

I would especially look at counters. A boss who can nope a few attacks will last longer and make a bigger impression. Iron tortoise is good for that. Check the feat to apply shield bonus against ranged touch attacks. Watch saves to do your casters don't negate the right before you get to show off a bit.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I would especially look at counters. A boss who can nope a few attacks will last longer and make a bigger impression. Iron tortoise is good for that. Check the feat to apply shield bonus against ranged touch attacks. Watch saves to do your casters don't negate the right before you get to show off a bit.

thanks Stack! i made sure to give him some counters. and thinking with the martial training feat to give it to some random mooks as well.

do you lovely giants have more advice in using PoW as a DM? i would love to hear it ^^

[Manyasone]

A vanguard commander warlord is also a competent shield user instead of a warder pur sang. I made one to serve as a boss and he was an actual beast. Iron tortoise and primal Fury as main disciplines

[gkathellar]

Toss some enemies with one or two initiator levels and/or feats at them - cool stuff that throws them for a loop. See whether they like facing that kind of enemy. If so, gradually amp it up. If not? No harm, no foul.

(For what it's worth, I have the PoW devs on record as saying you should avoid Broken Blade like the plague. So keep that in mind.)


sword-mages pretending to be sword-warriors

You know, when I think about it, it makes sense to me that you see so many people setting up straw men and knocking them down on TTRPG forums - that is, after all, a big part of what TTRPGs consist of.

[Jormengand]

You know, when I think about it, it makes sense to me that you see so many people setting up straw men and knocking them down on TTRPG forums - that is, after all, a big part of what TTRPGs consist of.

What, and I suppose you're going to tell me that ToB/PoW's usal fare of teleportation and throwing weapons through six people and having them return to your hand isn't magical, the way most proponents of the system do?

[stack]

What, and I suppose you're going to tell me that ToB/PoW's usal fare of teleportation and throwing weapons through six people and having them return to your hand isn't magical, the way most proponents of the system do?

PoW actually has appropriate tags on maneuvers generally speaking. I'm sure they missed some but teleport and such are tagged as supernatural either in the maneuver or the entire discipline. As for cool sword moved, Ex doesn't mean possible in the real world. It's a fantasy game, some cool cinematic moves at high levels (levels were everything in the game is way past normal human capability) is necessary.

Anyhow, that is a digression and I doubt anyone's minds will be changed. I second not maxing out broken blade before errata. Bronze knuckle boost plus the flurry maneuver using weapon group adaptation for a grestsword is a PC slaying bucket of d6. I would definitely focus on thugs other than damage unless you are demonstrating how the system makes underused styles viable, like going einhander with scarlet throne.

[gkathellar]

What, and I suppose you're going to tell me that ToB/PoW's usal fare of teleportation and throwing weapons through six people and having them return to your hand isn't magical, the way most proponents of the system do?

No, I'm going to remind you that numerous disciplines don't do any of that.

And that's even putting aside the essential subjectivity of the "mage vs. warrior" concept (as one describes a real thing and the other doesn't) and the problems with drawing any such dichotomy in a D&D universe without resorting to the Guy At The Gym Fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303089-The-Guy-at-the-Gym-Fallacy).

[Elricaltovilla]

Swaoeaeieu (your username is hard to spell correctly, buddy :smallbiggrin:), I've got some suggestions for easing your players into PoW if they're interested.

Step 1: Include some generic baddies with 1 or 2 maneuvers in the next couple of encounters. Simple stuff like strikes that flat foot or target touch AC, but also one or two flashy maneuvers (Fading Strike from Veiled Moon is ideal for this).

Step 2: Use an initiator boss. You're already planning a warder, which is good. Be careful what maneuvers you give them though. You want to minimize the amount of bonus damage he does at first. Again, debuffing/movement shenanigans/counters are your bread and butter here. Seems like you've got this figured out.

Step 3: After they beat the bad guy, include some Martial Elixirs in the treasure. Martial Elixirs are currently in the Steelforge Playtest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430138-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Steelforge-Playtest). Drinking a Martial Elixir gives you access to 3 maneuvers (1 boost, 1 counter, 1 strike) from a single discipline for an encounter. This will let your players experiment with maneuvers without having to alter their character builds at all.

Step 3.5: If your players are even more interested in maneuvers after exposure, you can include some special "scrolls" that contain martial knowledge. Reading a scroll gives the player the Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-traits/combat-training-combat) trait from PoW:E. That way they can have their own maneuver, again without having to alter their character build. This trait even works for spellcasters since there are a couple 1st level counters that they would probably enjoy having just in case :smallwink:.

Step 4: Include friendly NPC initiators that can train your PCs that show interest in maneuvers. This might mean a character rebuild or retraining or something else, but working the acquisition of maneuvers into the narrative can make the transition easier.

The important thing to remember is that, if at any point your players start to lose interest or seem to be not enjoying the system, stop. You don't want to force them into something they don't enjoy. And do make sure to get their opinions on what you're doing after the session ends. It'll help you improve the game and tailor it to their interests.

Hope that helps.

[Jormengand]

PoW actually has appropriate tags on maneuvers generally speaking. I'm sure they missed some but teleport and such are tagged as supernatural either in the maneuver or the entire discipline. As for cool sword moved, Ex doesn't mean possible in the real world. It's a fantasy game, some cool cinematic moves at high levels (levels were everything in the game is way past normal human capability) is necessary.

I know that PoW is generally better than ToB was, but not perfect. And I'm mainly sick of seeing players who've quite clearly said they're not interested in ToB being pushed into doing it, or being told it's The Way of making mundane characters when it fails spectacularly at that. Ex tags on impossible things don't actually help that cause.


No, I'm going to remind you that numerous disciplines don't do any of that.

And that's even putting aside the essential subjectivity of the "mage vs. warrior" concept (as one describes a real thing and the other doesn't) and the problems with drawing any such dichotomy in a D&D universe without resorting to the Guy At The Gym Fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303089-The-Guy-at-the-Gym-Fallacy).

True, but what they do do is unrealistic in slightly less unsubtle ways.

There is no subjectivity between possible and impossible. Science exists to find out which is which. There's a difference between some guy in some gym not being able to do something, and the optimal guy in the optimal gym not being able to do it either. And many of the maneuvers that are supposedly nonmagical contain examples of what is clearly beyond the realms of possibility.

[Elricaltovilla]

Jormengand, I don't think this is a case of people being pushed to use PoW when they don't want to use it. The impression I got was that it was more an attempt to introduce the system to people who weren't sure what they wanted with regards to PoW, as said in this post:


i think i might need to clear up my wording in the OP...
My players chose not to use PoW not because they didnt like it. One is playing a psychic warrior, saying adding maneuvers to it would be too much gish. The other read some maneuvers and stated ''I dont really see how this would work/what it would do for the game'' and has told me he might want to see it in action, but not use it himself. One player is playing a sorcerer, so didnt really seem interested.
its more that the players thought it would be cool, but wanted to see proof of concept before reading all those new things for themself. So for me as a DM i wanted to try and introduce it with npc's

so thanks for the reminder, as a DM i dont need to be pushy about stuff i like. but in this case i do want to show them this stuff.

as for the other tips, thank you! i am statting up a level 4 warder as a bossfight, using maneuvers that add options instead of just dmg.

You don't have to like Path of War or Tome of Battle, but there's no reason to deter someone who does like it from trying to introduce it to their friends. It's ok to try something and decide not to use it further.

[Jormengand]

I just don't see that using it on people who have already said they're not interested is going to be helpful, is all.

EDIT: I guess my point is: talk to them about it, rather than trying to sneak it in and expect them to like it.

[Elricaltovilla]

It gives people a proof of concept. It allows a more experienced player to demonstrate the benefits and drawbacks of a system, so that new players can get an idea of its capabilities. It's not that different from a demo of a videogame or a pre-release event for MTG or any other showcase. Sharing information this way allows people to make a more informed decision because they can be shown things that might not have occurred to them due to their unfamiliarity with the material.

[Jormengand]

It gives people a proof of concept. It allows a more experienced player to demonstrate the benefits and drawbacks of a system, so that new players can get an idea of its capabilities. It's not that different from a demo of a videogame or a pre-release event for MTG or any other showcase. Sharing information this way allows people to make a more informed decision because they can be shown things that might not have occurred to them due to their unfamiliarity with the material.

I still think it's better to talk to the players about using a new system, rather than trying to sneak it in on them, trouncing them, and then going "Ha, look at how powerful I am because I use this subsystem!" which at least one person has already suggested unironically. Then, if they say they don't want to use it, respect that decision and maybe bring it up next game.

[gkathellar]

There is no subjectivity between possible and impossible.

Of course not, but warrior is not a synonym for possible, and mage is not a synonym for impossible. If your definition of a mage is someone who does impossible things, and your definition of a warrior is someone who only does possible things, that raises a whole host of issues where we now have to regard characters like Conan as mages because they routinely do things that are impossible.


There's a difference between some guy in some gym not being able to do something, and the optimal guy in the optimal gym not being able to do it either.

The optimal guy in the optimal gym cannot punch a hippopotamus to death before it mauls him. It cannot be done. No matter how good a puncher he is, no matter how strong and fast and tough, he will never punch a hippopotamus to death before it mauls him.

So when your D&D character punches a hippopotamus to death, he is doing something impossible. And if we accept the premise that people can do things which are impossible, we uh ... we accept the premise that people can do things which are impossible.


And many of the maneuvers that are supposedly nonmagical contain examples of what is clearly beyond the realms of possibility.

Making a Fortitude save against poison is clearly beyond the realms of possibility.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Im apreciate the advice not to push anything on my players. but as elric mentions, this is more a case of showing something to players who havent seen it in action yet. They already know i am going to introduce PoW to them in the campaign and are even curious when it will happen. But i will be carefull and make sure to revieuw with them to make sure its all ok. Not everyone likes ToB/PoW, and thats ok, but i assure you this isnt a case of me forcing it on them, just a case of showing possibilities inside the system.


Swaoeaeieu (your username is hard to spell correctly, buddy :smallbiggrin:), I've got some suggestions for easing your players into PoW if they're interested.

Step 1: Include some generic baddies with 1 or 2 maneuvers in the next couple of encounters. Simple stuff like strikes that flat foot or target touch AC, but also one or two flashy maneuvers (Fading Strike from Veiled Moon is ideal for this).

Step 2: Use an initiator boss. You're already planning a warder, which is good. Be careful what maneuvers you give them though. You want to minimize the amount of bonus damage he does at first. Again, debuffing/movement shenanigans/counters are your bread and butter here. Seems like you've got this figured out.

Step 3: After they beat the bad guy, include some Martial Elixirs in the treasure. Martial Elixirs are currently in the Steelforge Playtest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430138-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Steelforge-Playtest). Drinking a Martial Elixir gives you access to 3 maneuvers (1 boost, 1 counter, 1 strike) from a single discipline for an encounter. This will let your players experiment with maneuvers without having to alter their character builds at all.

Step 3.5: If your players are even more interested in maneuvers after exposure, you can include some special "scrolls" that contain martial knowledge. Reading a scroll gives the player the Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-traits/combat-training-combat) trait from PoW:E. That way they can have their own maneuver, again without having to alter their character build. This trait even works for spellcasters since there are a couple 1st level counters that they would probably enjoy having just in case :smallwink:.

Step 4: Include friendly NPC initiators that can train your PCs that show interest in maneuvers. This might mean a character rebuild or retraining or something else, but working the acquisition of maneuvers into the narrative can make the transition easier.

The important thing to remember is that, if at any point your players start to lose interest or seem to be not enjoying the system, stop. You don't want to force them into something they don't enjoy. And do make sure to get their opinions on what you're doing after the session ends. It'll help you improve the game and tailor it to their interests.

Hope that helps.

Fantastic! help from the source itself :P (and yes the name is hard, but its origins involve numerous mmo's, booze and some dares about naming characters. i like it and im keeping it XD)
step 1 and 2: planned and ready for action. focus is on crowd controll and counters.
step 3(.5): i still dont know how to explain how drinking a potion gives knowledge of a maneuver, but it is a nice way to introduce the PC's to new abilities.
step 4: depends on the outcome of previous steps. but yea, friendly bad-asses will be introduced soon as wel, not just the enemies will be powerhousing them around the map :)

Now one last question, in the case of multiple npc's with maneuvers, is there a handy way to keep track of maneuvers? when i was a player i always had a deck of cards, but doing that for 5-10 npcs at the same time will drive me crazy XD

[Elricaltovilla]

Now one last question, in the case of multiple npc's with maneuvers, is there a handy way to keep track of maneuvers? when i was a player i always had a deck of cards, but doing that for 5-10 npcs at the same time will drive me crazy XD

I just write them down on a sheet of paper and check them off as they're used. Most NPCs and enemies aren't going to live long enough to recover their maneuvers. You're the GM, you can fudge things a little if needed.

[Ualaa]

If you want to use the system, have the book at the table so it is available.
While the game is for your players, it is also for you.
The ultimate goal is fun for everyone.

Slip in a few NPCs with some initiator levels.
It could be a hireling, who is mostly Fighter, but picked up a few tricks (levels) in an initiator class on his most recent caravan guard trip to a foreign land.
This gives exposure to the system, without confrontation.

You can give the feat version, for a single power, to some NPCs.
Or a few feats in the chain, so they have a few manuevers/stances.
Or maybe multiclass different PoW characters.
A little here, a little there.

I like giving some of the system to an opponent early.
And giving a lot of the system to a boss or mini-boss down the road.
Not every NPC is going to be an initiator, so mix in plenty of non-PoW things too.

The group is not forced to play a Path of War character.
Nor is every opponent using PoW.
But there is some exposure, more over time, letting them know it is an option.
If someone wants to play one down the road, cool; if not, you still get to play with it a bit.