I'm playing a gish. Help please!

[Klorox]

I want to be able to take some hits.

3rd level, 27 point buy. Expecting the game to get to level 10-ish.

I'm narrowing my choices down between a fighter 1/bladelock X, a paladin 2/sorcerer X, and a fighter (eldritch knight).

They're all pretty similar, yet they're all different.

I'd love if you guys, many of which are more experienced players than myself, could break down the pros and cons of each of these guys.

TIA

[clash]

It really depends what you want to do.

Fighter/Bladelock will be decent at fighting and good at casting spells. Will be low on hp though so that's something to consider.

Paladin sorcerer will be able to do a lot of smiting and if you take quicken spell is the first class that can cast a spell and attack in the same turn. It will have really high nova damage although either one of them can actually make a decent gish on their own. Again low on the hp side.

EK is definitely more fighter than caster but at level 7 they can cast cantrip and attack in the same turn if you are fond of doing both at the same time. They can also do this all day long unlike the sorcerer with quicken. However they cant cast a a spell and attack until level 18 so you wont really see that at all.

[Gastronomie]

Fighter/Bladelock will be decent at fighting and good at casting spells. Will be low on hp though so that's something to consider.

Paladin sorcerer will be able to do a lot of smiting and if you take quicken spell is the first class that can cast a spell and attack in the same turn. It will have really high nova damage although either one of them can actually make a decent gish on their own. Again low on the hp side.The difference in HP is not much for Fighter/Bladelocks (only 1 per Warlock level), and they are actually tankier than normal Fighters if you take the Fiendish Vigor invocation that allows you to cast False Life unlimited times. By RAW this can net you 8 temporary HP inbetween every single fight, by re-casting till you roll a 4 with the 1d4.

If you're going to play the Paladin/Sorcerer, my advice is to:
Go Longsword+Shield
Take the Defense fighting style
Take Blade Mastery (UA feat) over STR +2
(Obviously) take the Shield spell
Take Draconic Sorcerer

For defensiveness.

Also, ask the DM first if it's okay to take War Caster as a Variant Human feat, even if you start your first level in Paladin. By strict RAW, you cannot do that, but TBH there is zero reason to disallow it. Anyhow, until you get War Caster, it's difficult for S&B builds to cast spells, due to component restrictions.

(Of course, if your DM doesn't care about component restrictions in the first place, all is fine.)

Starting Sorcerer just for V-Human War Caster is not worth it, because you lose proficiency with heavy armor.

[Hungrygnome]

Paladin / Sorc with likely be the best gish combo of the 3, though have you considered a pure Favored Soul bloodline sorc? Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, and Extra Attack at 6? Along with all the spells from a cleric domain of your choice. At Level 6, you use Attack option, attack twice, then use quicken spell to hit with a cantrip (Such as green flame blade), and thus are getting weapon damage x3 plus the cantrip.

This is completely doable with Paladin/sorc also, just a bit slower to come online, though you have the advantage of better weapons, better armor, and smite.

[lunaticfringe]

The difference in HP is not much for Fighter/Bladelocks (only 1 per Warlock level), and they are actually tankier than normal Fighters if you take the Fiendish Vigor invocation that allows you to cast False Life unlimited times. By RAW this can net you 8 temporary HP inbetween every single fight, by re-casting till you roll a 4 with the 1d4.

If you're going to play the Paladin/Sorcerer, my advice is to:
Go Longsword+Shield
Take the Defense fighting style
Take Blade Mastery (UA feat) over STR +2
(Obviously) take the Shield spell
Take Draconic Sorcerer

For defensiveness.

Also, ask the DM first if it's okay to take War Caster as a Variant Human feat, even if you start your first level in Paladin. By strict RAW, you cannot do that, but TBH there is zero reason to disallow it. Anyhow, until you get War Caster, it's difficult for S&B builds to cast spells, due to component restrictions.

(Of course, if your DM doesn't care about component restrictions in the first place, all is fine.)

Starting Sorcerer just for V-Human War Caster is not worth it, because you lose proficiency with heavy armor.

There is no reason not to go Rapier + Shield if you are going Sword & Board. Dex is more useful than Str as a whole, if you aren't swinging a 2 handed you might wanna check out Finesse weapons. Also don't count on Blade Mastery being a Thing, Shield Master is sexy on Dex Sword & Boarders

[Gastronomie]

There is no reason not to go Rapier + Shield if you are going Sword & Board. Dex is more useful than Str as a whole, if you aren't swinging a 2 handed you might wanna check out Finesse weapons. Also don't count on Blade Mastery being a Thing, Shield Master is sexy on Dex Sword & BoardersThere is actually a really important reason to not go Rapier + Shield, which is the extremely stupid STR 13 requirement for Paladin multiclassing. It's really, really stupid.
If you can convince your DM it's stupid, feel free to go Rapier. Otherwise it gets too MAD.

[lunaticfringe]

I didn't say dump Str

[Klorox]

I didn't say dump Str

No, but try using 27 point buy, maximizing DEX and CHA, along with a good CON and 13 STR.

It isn't easy.

[Gastronomie]

No, but try using 27 point buy, maximizing DEX and CHA, along with a good CON and 13 STR.

It isn't easy.The best you can go with it is Half-Elf:

13-15-13-8-9-14
13-16-14-8-9-16

Or, just ask your DM to lift the limit on Paladin multiclassing.

The more important problem is how to get War Caster as soon as possible, though. Unless your DM never cares about somatic and material components (I, as an example, don't care as a DM, but some people do). One particular Paladin/Sorcerer character I played had a smexy tatoo that worked like an arcane focus for her sorcerer spells (though she paid some starting money to get that), so perhaps that's another option.

[Citan]

I want to be able to take some hits.

3rd level, 27 point buy. Expecting the game to get to level 10-ish.

I'm narrowing my choices down between a fighter 1/bladelock X, a paladin 2/sorcerer X, and a fighter (eldritch knight).

They're all pretty similar, yet they're all different.

I'd love if you guys, many of which are more experienced players than myself, could break down the pros and cons of each of these guys.

TIA
Hi! ;)
If you want to take some hits, Paladin / Sorcerer seems the best way to go, although Fighter / Bladelock is not far behind.

The advantages of Fighter / Warlock
+ free THP with Fiendish Vigor
+ free THP with Fiend Patron on kill
+ free Mage Armor
+ all armor & weapon proficiencies (Fighter dip)
+ Armor of Agathys
Not bad at all.

BUT, the advantages of Paladin / Sorcerer
+ Bless ("offense is the best defense")
+ Shield of Faith (putting a respectable AC 20 from the start without wielding a shield)
+ Shield spell for that extra protection
+ Shocking Grasp (yes, it still counts even with weapon cantrips, especially if you want to grab a shield and still cast spells without taking Warcaster feat).

So all in all, Paladin is slightly better at being self-resilient, mainly because he can get a greater AC from the start without relying on THP (considering you have to divide your stats between weapon stat and casting stat). At higher level, Warlock would shine though as long as you can take care of mooks on a regular basis (or can coordinate with a friend to always get the finishing hit).

This is a tanking focused comparison of course, in whole many other aspects should be considered.

Basically, I'd say the defining difference is that the Pal build is more of a party player than the Warlock one, because you get both great buffs from Paladin, debuffs from Sorcerer, and control/utility from both.

If your focus is instead to be one of the primary damage dealers, then Warlock build is the best, because you get both a good melee attack (weapon cantrip / Extra attack) and a great ranged attack (Eldricht Blast) making you reliable in nearly all occasions. Although you will have to choose which part to max in the end. :)

And if you really want the best of both (tank-wise only) and your DM does not frown upon this fluff-wise, cram a level of Warlock in your Pal/Sorcerer build to get the bonus THP on kill and Armor of Agathys. Not saying this is the best though, you would lose quite a few good things for the sake of being better tank. It's just another possibility.

My 2 cents, hope that helps. ;)

[djreynolds]

Who else is in the party?
Are you blasting away?
Bladesinger/AT is okay
Eldritch knight with some abjurer wizard.

Paladin sorcerer is very easy to make. I like war caster. My choice.

Warlock is always nice.

Tempest cleric works

[Seekergeek]

I'm going to throw Paladin/Bladelock into the mix. It may be a less popular option than paladin/sorcerer, but I really really enjoy it. With variant human and the great weapon master feat you can do nasty things running bless and tossing in a smite or two (using the vengeance channel divinity on top of all that for when you really need to hit a sucka). Going fiend and vengeance had some Ghost Ridery synergy for me, and heavy armour, lay on hands and dark one's blessing have made me extremely tanky. I know there is more nova potential in sorcerer but in my group there aren't any other players that give much thought to optimization so that hasn't been a big concern of mine. All I can say is that it has been a lot of fun.

Another mix I've played recently was barbarian/bladelock essentially just relying on armour of agathys and rage as a combo along with reckless attack and hellish rebuke for fun when you're not raging.

[Sianthus]

I'm personally playing a Palalock myself AND a Palasorc. The first gives you more utility abilities in the invocations and temphp from fiendish vigor is always nice (but don't feel pressured to play fiend even if it's the best for melee tanks) Palasorc gives you a lot of smiting potential and is probably the closest to a gish you can get.

You know, i just wonder when WOTC gives us a true Spellblade/Gish like character instead of having us always trying to make it using the existing classes. I know it's a modular system, being easy to add on and all but.. one can dreaaam.

[Hungrygnome]

There only has been one WOTC gish full class : the Dusk blade of 3.5.

[Specter]

Bladelock: Devil's Sight cheese, as many spells as there are short rests, bonus invocations
Palasorc: Greatest damage, CHA to saves
EK: Greatest HP/tankiness, cantrips along with attack, Action Surge

These are the main advantages, I'd say.

[JAL_1138]

I'm going to toss out Paladin 2/ Valor Bard X as a suggestion. Extra Attack at Bard 6 (overall 8) is quite nice for burst damage, although SCAG cantrips put the Sorcadin ahead for sustained damage and damage at lower character levels I think.

Song of Rest is a nice boost to spent hit dice on short rests, the bard spell list is more utility/control/support oriented and synergizes quite nicely with a Paladin's standard support/burst-damage role, and at Bard 10 you can snag a couple of Paladin spells you wouldn't otherwise get access to, like Aura of Vitality. Bardic Onspiration can help the party out on saves. Putting one of your Expertises in Athletics can be really powerful if you're going sword-and-board for the boost it gives to Shield Master's bonus action shove, or for a grapple build, although I favor Polearm Master for the burst damage potential.

Downside is, it has very little for ranged damage until Magical Secrets or you take the Magic Initiate feat, and takes a long time to "kick in" in general, whereas a Sorcadin gets going quickly.

[Klorox]

Bladelock: Devil's Sight cheese, as many spells as there are short rests, bonus invocations
Palasorc: Greatest damage, CHA to saves
EK: Greatest HP/tankiness, cantrips along with attack, Action Surge

These are the main advantages, I'd say.

When is a cantrip +1 single attack better than mulriattack (which the ek has already)?

[Specter]

When is a cantrip +1 single attack better than mulriattack (which the ek has already)?

Depends on the situation, but usually cantrips will be on par. AVG damage of 3 d8 attacks with +5DEX is 28.5. AVG damage of Green-Flame Blade with another attack is 28, but it could also damage an adjacent enemy. More attacks is better with Action Surge, certain cantrips are better in some conditions (like Chill Touch against undead, etc.). It opens up more possibilities.

[DivisibleByZero]

A little bit away from what you were talking about, but I'm a huge fan of Trickster13/Bladesinger7 as a skirmishing gish.

[NecroDancer]

One of my friends played a Eldritch knight 5/abjuration wizard 5 and kicked major butt

[Grod_The_Giant]

Another thought: how 'bout a Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard 9? Use SCAG cantrips for melee damage (pro tip: start as a vHuman with Spell Sniper and cast Booming Blade through a reach weapon-- you can easily keep the range open that way, so they have to keep eating the damage to get to you), wear heavy armor, and use Arcane Ward to net boatloads of temporary hit points.

[rollingForInit]

Fighter 1/Bladelock X
Pros:
* Short rest spell slot recovery
* Good ranged with Eldritch Blast
* Cannot be disarmed
* Okay HP
* Very "gish", in that it has a good mix of fighting and spellcasting
* Can do either Strength or Dexterity

Cons:
* Doesn't really kick in until Warlock 11, when you get extra damage on the attacks.
* Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast often seems more compelling than fighting in melee, with identical (or better if you go Dexterity) damage, but ranged. This may not bother you, or your inner minmaxer might be perpetually annoyed at it.
* Few spell slots, so if short rests are few and far between, you'll suffer.
* You get behind on Feats/ASI

Paladin 2/Sorcerer X
Pros:
* Great nova damage from Divine Smite
* Can Heal, both innately from the Paladin class and by spells
* A lot of cantrips
* Sorcery Points can be used to great effect to give you more spellslots for smiting
* Very balanced as a gish

Cons:
* Poor HP from that Sorcerer's Hit Dice (Draconic Bloodline can somewhat mitigate it)
* Takes a bit longer to really get to its full power, with the extra attack at level 7 (total levels)
* More suited for Strength builds
* You get behind on ASI/Feats
* Only one attack.

Eldritch Knight
Pros:
* Great HP
* Can never be disarmed
* Has some great class features for gishing, such as War Magic at level 7, which can be used with the SCAG cantrips.
* Full feat/ASI progression, plus fighters get more of them. Boost your Str (or Dex), get GWM, PA, Sentinel ... whatever you like.
* Great nova damage from Action Surge.
* Can dump spellcasting stat altogether, if you so desire.
* Gets three attacks at level 11.

Cons:
* Slow spell progression
* Not so much a gish, as a fighter with some magic.



Personally, I think Paladin/Sorcerer is the most "gish" of them at lower levels. Fighter/Warlock I would save for an adventure that goes beyond levle 11, where the Bladelock really reaches its full power.

So, I'd say: go Eldritch Knight if you want more fighting with some magical support, and go Paladin/Sorcerer if you want lots of magic and some fighting.

Also, you could consider something like Eldritch Knight 5 (or 6 depending on how much you want the feat), and then take the rest in Wizard. That works, too.

[Specter]

Fighter 1/Bladelock X
Pros:
* Short rest spell slot recovery
* Good ranged with Eldritch Blast
* Cannot be disarmed
* Okay HP
* Very "gish", in that it has a good mix of fighting and spellcasting
* Can do either Strength or Dexterity

Cons:
* Doesn't really kick in until Warlock 11, when you get extra damage on the attacks.
* Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast often seems more compelling than fighting in melee, with identical (or better if you go Dexterity) damage, but ranged. This may not bother you, or your inner minmaxer might be perpetually annoyed at it.
* Few spell slots, so if short rests are few and far between, you'll suffer.
* You get behind on Feats/ASI

Paladin 2/Sorcerer X
Pros:
* Great nova damage from Divine Smite
* Can Heal, both innately from the Paladin class and by spells
* A lot of cantrips
* Sorcery Points can be used to great effect to give you more spellslots for smiting
* Very balanced as a gish

Cons:
* Poor HP from that Sorcerer's Hit Dice (Draconic Bloodline can somewhat mitigate it)
* Takes a bit longer to really get to its full power, with the extra attack at level 7 (total levels)
* More suited for Strength builds
* You get behind on ASI/Feats
* Only one attack.

Eldritch Knight
Pros:
* Great HP
* Can never be disarmed
* Has some great class features for gishing, such as War Magic at level 7, which can be used with the SCAG cantrips.
* Full feat/ASI progression, plus fighters get more of them. Boost your Str (or Dex), get GWM, PA, Sentinel ... whatever you like.
* Great nova damage from Action Surge.
* Can dump spellcasting stat altogether, if you so desire.
* Gets three attacks at level 11.

Cons:
* Slow spell progression
* Not so much a gish, as a fighter with some magic.



Personally, I think Paladin/Sorcerer is the most "gish" of them at lower levels. Fighter/Warlock I would save for an adventure that goes beyond levle 11, where the Bladelock really reaches its full power.

So, I'd say: go Eldritch Knight if you want more fighting with some magical support, and go Paladin/Sorcerer if you want lots of magic and some fighting.

Also, you could consider something like Eldritch Knight 5 (or 6 depending on how much you want the feat), and then take the rest in Wizard. That works, too.

EK7 (for War Magic)/Wiz13 is great too. That way your attacks keep hurting until forever.

[Klorox]

Who else is in the party?
Are you blasting away?
Bladesinger/AT is okay
Eldritch knight with some abjurer wizard.

Paladin sorcerer is very easy to make. I like war caster. My choice.

Warlock is always nice.

Tempest cleric works

We just reached 3rd level.

The rest of the party is:

Halfling Bard (probably lore)
Half orc paladin (no idea which)
Elf ranger (archery attacks, I think she might be the new UA one)
Elf Monk (open fist)

There are rumors there will be one more player. I don't know what he will be, but the rumor is a rogue of some type.

I'm getting a gish ready, so I can cover multiple roles. I also have an arcana cleric ready to go, in case this new player goes with a tank or a gish.

[NecroDancer]

I'd suggest paladin 2/sorcerer X, your party could use the extra healing

[CaptainSarathai]

When running a Gish, the choice is really down to how many spells you want to throw, vs how many Attacks you want to make.

the best thing about Warlock kicks in at L2 at which point you have Hex/Armor of Agathys, and Agonizing Blast on your Eldritch Blast, and Devil's Sight If you have Darkness (Tiefling, Drow, or go to 'Lock3) Best thing about BladeLock kicks in at L12 with Life Drinker.

Best stuff with Paladins kicks at L6-7, by which point you already have an Extra Attack (making 5th level Thirsting Blade Invocation worthless). Going up to Pally 11 is also cool, for the extra D8 to weapon damage being .5 behind a Cha20 Life Drinker on BladeLock.

I'd personally go with PallyX/Warlock4 so that you're not far behind on ASIs and you have 2nd level Warlock slots to burn for Smites. That makes getting Pally11 for Improved Divine Smite feasible, plus all the other cool stuff. The only way I'd consider flipping it, is if you somehow manage to convince your DM to let you go Fiend Pact and can snag Hurl Through Hell at Lock14.

If you're going Gish though, I cannot reccomend at least a 3 level dip in DragSorc highly enough. With the +1 to HitPoints per level, you have what's essentially a D8, you get AC13 naked, and most importantly: you can throw Full Action spells as a Bonus Action. Or use your Sorc Points for an extra L2 spell slot.

[Gastronomie]

Extra Attack is unrequired if you have the SCAG cantrips.

[CaptainSarathai]

The SCAG cantrips are good, but at level11 you have your initial whack plus 2D8. Average is 4.5 on that roll. So if you have a Rapier, 2 attacks, and an 18-20 on your damage stat, you're doing about equal. It doesn't start to get better until level 17.

Obviously, that's not counting the bonus damage if they move, or the jumping damage from GFB. But you can't rely on that. You also can't always rely on being able to throw the spell at all.

I won't argue - my Warlock/Sorc is built to make some nasty combos with BB, Warcaster, Quicken Spell, and Dissonant Whispers. Does it do as much as Quickened Eldritch Blast? No. But it's fun (and still does more damage than the character has a right to)

[rollingForInit]

EK7 (for War Magic)/Wiz13 is great too. That way your attacks keep hurting until forever.

That is very true! But I've also seen the argument that you should go EK 6/Wizard 5, because at level 11 total, you then get Haste, which gives you another attack, to compensate (sort of) for losing the Fighter 11 extra attack.

[djreynolds]

You know what, honestly, there is no help needed in playing a GISH. A standalone paladin is basically a "divine" gish.

There are so many choices, just pick what fits best for the party so you are not cramping other players.

Warlock is good for an awesome ranged attack that comes online at level 2. A simple dip at level one for fighter gives you heavy armor and shield. The rest warlock and maybe a dip of sorcerer for the shield spell.

Good AC
Shield spell
war caster is nice to have
con save proficiency and maybe wisdom save proficiency, I hate being on the wrong end of charm or hold person
I like divine favor, hex or hunter's mark

Having a good ranged attack is nice, like a EB or firebolt so you can cast mirror image and such before you engage in melee.

But I like wizard really because of the spellbook and utility that you may not get as a sorcerer or warlock that you might need elsewhere in the game.

IMO, start off a fighter to get the goodies, then warlock 2, and then you can go paladin or sorcerer. But be sure there is someone else in the party who can do other things spell casting wise.

[Gastronomie]

BB, Warcaster, Quicken Spell, and Dissonant WhispersI think that's fun, but I also have another method I like using for Paladin/Sorcs (possible with Warlock/Sorc as well), which is BB + War Caster + Careful Spell + Web.

Basically, after going in melee range of an enemy, you cast Web centered around you, except you and your friends can move through the web freely via Careful Spell (for just 1 Sorcery Point). Regardless of whether he suceeds on he first save or not, the opponent is forced to either remain in the Web area and repeat the DEX save at the start of each of his turns (and if he fails, use up his action just breaking free), or fleeing and triggering Booming Blade done as an opportunity attack. This also gives you field control, potential restraining, can affect a semi-large area and probably over 2 enemies, and I love this combination.

[spartan_ah]

Now playing level 3 bladesinger and he's a great Gish for what you asked. Plus you'll need more arcane for your party or a cleric

[MrStabby]

If you are not playing with SCAG then I can also recommend an EK/Sorcerer.

Quicken spell for hold person + multiple attacks is great. You miss out on the nova power of the paladin and the ability to waste half your damage on overkill but in return get things like extra feats/ASI. The ASIs are pretty important to a Gish as you are that little bit more MAD than other classes. When you get the ability to force disadvantage on saves, this just gets better.


If you do have SCAG enabled, then Arcane Trickster + Sorcerer can dish out an obscene amount of damage and can be very flexible.

Another one to think of can be Shadowmonk+Arcane trickster. It can be OK at higher levels for a front line(ish) role when you can use reaction to take half damage. The real strength is in reducing damage by keeping opponents out of the fight. Booming blade then shadowstepping away is good, stunning strike is good. You don't even need the arcane trickster archetype if you go high elf for the cantrip.

[Quintessence]

The SCAG cantrips are good, but at level11 you have your initial whack plus 2D8. Average is 4.5 on that roll. So if you have a Rapier, 2 attacks, and an 18-20 on your damage stat, you're doing about equal. It doesn't start to get better until level 17.

Obviously, that's not counting the bonus damage if they move, or the jumping damage from GFB. But you can't rely on that. You also can't always rely on being able to throw the spell at all.

I won't argue - my Warlock/Sorc is built to make some nasty combos with BB, Warcaster, Quicken Spell, and Dissonant Whispers. Does it do as much as Quickened Eldritch Blast? No. But it's fun (and still does more damage than the character has a right to)

You actually don't trigger BB with Dissonant Whispers sadly.

[CaptainSarathai]

You actually don't trigger BB with Dissonant Whispers sadly.
Heh, I just looked it up to double check your post, and you're right - Crawford did say that DW doesn't count as "moving of your own free will" despite triggering an OA.

I actually disagree with that ruling though, as Dissonant Whispers isn't a compulsion like Command or Suggestion - you are simply causing a painful noise to that creature, and failing their Will save means that they can't resist the urge to flee away from the painful, painful, thing.
It's worth noting that a creature suffering from DW won't flee through fire or off a cliff, so they obviously still have some level of control over their actions.
I'll have to run that one by the DM, and see how he wants to rule it. I'd allow it at my table, but I'm not DMing in this instance.

I do like the Webs idea. That's pretty cool. Basically, "let me wail on you with Advantage - or blow yourself up to escape".
Setting the webs on fire and torching everyone in it also seems like something my 'Lock would do. Although while we're all being downers, Shape Spell does not technically work on Web; Web does not call for a saving throw when cast - only when you walk into it.

[Klorox]

I'm really leaning towards the Pal2/Sorc X idea. Not 100% set on STR based, but I'm pretty sure.

Thanks everybody (especially Gastronomie)!

[Gastronomie]

You're welcome~. Well, do remember to ask your DM the two questions though (whether it's okay to ignore STR 13 restrictions, and more importantly, what to do with Somatic and Material components while going S&B. Consider using a Greatsword till Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 if your DM does not permit Variant Human War Caster nor a smexy tattoo arcane focus).

(BTW the reason he thanked me is prolly because of a Paladin/Sorc guide under construction that I showed him a bit of. It's gonna be out around tomorrow if all goes right)

[CaptainSarathai]

what to do with Somatic and Material components while going S&B. Consider using a Greatsword till Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 if your DM does not permit Variant Human War Caster nor a smexy tattoo arcane focus).

I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to hand wave that he could use his Holy Symbol as an Arcane Focus. Kinda silly to imagine a guy having two different crystals, "this one is when I want to call on Jeebuz to burn the infidels, and THIS one is for the times I'd rather just do it myself"
A shield can be a holy symbol.

[Gastronomie]

I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to hand wave that he could use his Holy Symbol as an Arcane Focus. Kinda silly to imagine a guy having two different crystals, "this one is when I want to call on Jeebuz to burn the infidels, and THIS one is for the times I'd rather just do it myself"
A shield can be a holy symbol.I know, but some DMs are really, really strict with RAW. I don't like playing with those sorts of people but they do exist.

[Citan]

We just reached 3rd level.

The rest of the party is:

Halfling Bard (probably lore)
Half orc paladin (no idea which)
Elf ranger (archery attacks, I think she might be the new UA one)
Elf Monk (open fist)

There are rumors there will be one more player. I don't know what he will be, but the rumor is a rogue of some type.

I'm getting a gish ready, so I can cover multiple roles. I also have an arcana cleric ready to go, in case this new player goes with a tank or a gish.
Considering this information, I'd say Paladin / Warlock combo could be as good as Pal / Sorcerer, or even better depending on if you prefer being a fighting caster or a skirmisher with utility.

For good sustained damage, going the Tome Warlock way could make you single ability dependent thanks to Shillelagh, so you could get both a very strong melee attack (weapon cantrip stacked with Shillelagh) and the best ranged cantrip.
Pick Booming Blade and Eldricht Blast at first, then Green Flame Blade or Shocking Grasp depending on your style later (or both, since you will get also 3 more cantrips with Tome). Pick up Agonizing or Repelling Blast at level 2, keeping a slot for Ritual Invoction at level 3, then pick up the other Eldricht Blast related invocation at level 5.

You end up with good melee attack, great ranged attack, a nice array of spells that can be upcast from Paladin (Bless, Command notably) as well as Hex, Armor of Agathys and other goodies for Warlock. As well as a potentially long list of helpful ritual spells that nobody else at the table can bring (unless Ranger or Monk taking Ritual Caster feat), as long as your DM plays along (giving you chances of learning such spells through shops, loots and quests).

Works great whether you go with minimum STR build and good DEX (medium armor) or good STR (heavy armor), even with STR requirement for paladin multiclass.
You can take Sentinel later to become a true enforcer around you.

I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to hand wave that he could use his Holy Symbol as an Arcane Focus. Kinda silly to imagine a guy having two different crystals, "this one is when I want to call on Jeebuz to burn the infidels, and THIS one is for the times I'd rather just do it myself"
A shield can be a holy symbol.
I think it would actually, considering the general fluff of D&d universe. With that said, it would be painful in the long run for the player. As a DM, I would probably offer him a quest to find a blacksmith versed in magic arts that would be able to engrave both an arcane and holy symbol on a shield, or create a fused focus that can channel both kinds of energies.

After all, being able to get a symbol engraved on a shield is a boon given to Paladins partly because mechanical reasons. Extending it without any requirement or effort to arcane magic seems too generous to me (also, it makes a great incentive of sidequest, either as solo or for the whole group).

I agree though that it feel a bit clunky, that's the kind of detail making me miss the "hybrid class" concept of 4e (don't remember though if in this case the focus could be used for all spells, but I would have no problem houseruling in such case because it's in the "essence" of the character itself).

[ClintACK]

Re: Paladin/Warlock -- the RP on this is tough. It's hard to serve two masters. Particularly with a Fiend patron.



There only has been one WOTC gish full class : the Dusk blade of 3.5.

If we're going historical -- all gish classes are really a deep-seated longing for the primordial gish: the Elf, in OD&D. Better armor than the fighter. Better scouting than the thief. Full casting in armor and spells that didn't appear on the magic-user's list. The original OP class. Accept no substitutes.

[Klorox]

Re: Paladin/Warlock -- the RP on this is tough. It's hard to serve two masters. Particularly with a Fiend patron.




If we're going historical -- all gish classes are really a deep-seated longing for the primordial gish: the Elf, in OD&D. Better armor than the fighter. Better scouting than the thief. Full casting in armor and spells that didn't appear on the magic-user's list. The original OP class. Accept no substitutes.

I started in basic D&D (right before the BECMI set). The elf had the same armor as the fighter (how could you get better?), and the same spells as the magic-user.

Good times.

[Specter]

There's never been a consensus on what gish actually means. Thus, we can only talk about what goes on in our minds about what it means. To me, even an Arcane Trickster is a gish.

[Willie the Duck]

And if there is, it is extremely broad.

[ClintACK]

I started in basic D&D (right before the BECMI set). The elf had the same armor as the fighter (how could you get better?), and the same spells as the magic-user.

Good times.

Maybe I'm misremembering -- it was a long time ago. :)

I thought Elven Chainmail was elf-only and was the same AC as regular chainmail, but lighter and... quieter?

And I did think the Elf spell list included a few things that were either druid spells or unique to Elf.

Mostly, though, the advantage I recall was survivability at low levels.

[Hungrygnome]

The term "gish" was a specialized role in githyanki society. They were spellcasters who were also fighters or thieves. Though I do recall the original elf (when it was a class) was the original concept.

[Night Eternal]

Just some fyi

It depends on the type of weapon you like to use also. I personally love duel wielding which is really hard to do with an ek to the point i would not suggest it. But if you going great sword or something like that it could be really fun.

Personally i playing a blade singer right now. Im playing a dex mod so i focused my points into dex for a better ac and attack. I took high elf for the bonus +2 dex and +1 intelligence. Blade song let you add your int mod to your ac. So it lets me fight in the front lines. i use shield spells and haste ( im lvl 5) to make myself faster and add more attack. right now i can attack 3 times and i have 25 ac. ( mage armour 13+5 dex mod+5 int bonus) with shield spell it bumps up to 30. Not only that but for at lvl 14 you stop getting your subclass bonus so you can multi into something else.

Don't know if this helps at all.

[CaptainSarathai]

I agree though that it feel a bit clunky, that's the kind of detail making me miss the "hybrid class" concept of 4e (don't remember though if in this case the focus could be used for all spells, but I would have no problem houseruling in such case because it's in the "essence" of the character itself).
I'd allow it because I prefer to play characters, rather than classes. So obviously, RAW says that I'm a Paladin|Warlock, but for a character, I'm something else. Roles are rarely so black&white in reality. To me, a player "identifies" and then any levels in multiclassing are treated just like Feats. You're not a Paladin|Warlock, you're a "Warlock who wears armor" or "a Paladin who uses raw magic as well as divine inspiration."


Re: Paladin/Warlock -- the RP on this is tough. It's hard to serve two masters. Particularly with a Fiend patron.
First, remember that the new Paladin doesn't have to serve a god at all. They have Oaths like "Law" or whatever, and can serve the king. A Paladin pulls his power from a sense of righteousness and belief in his cause. If he loses faith (in the cause) then he falls. Alignment doesn't even remain fixed anymore, as long as you are sticking to your Oath.

Second, Oath of the Ancients and Archfey are not that different.

Lastly, I'd you did want to go Fiend Pact or Great Old One, you probably still could. Remember that a Warlock doesn't always know who he serves, or that he's made a deal at all. It could even have been a deal made on a cosmic level, between the god and the patron themselves a sort of hostage situation, a fiend under Asmodeus
"Sure Pelor, I'll help your greatest living Paladin break into my boss's realm and wreck his whole day, but I want to guarantee my own safety - give me a piece of his soul, to be returned when our deal has concluded."

I can also see a Vengeance Paladin deciding to "fight fire with fire" and strike a deal with a "less evil" fiend in order to defeat some "greater evil," much like a Radical Inquisitor in Warhammer 40k. It would be a cool story to see play out, as the Paladin walks a fine line trying not to dip too far into the incredible power offered by the fiend.

And lastly, I think that certain gods themselves would almost count as Patrons, or the Warlock powers could be reskinned as such. Corellon is an Elf god of magic, yes? So it might make sense that his Paladins also have some Arcane abilities either granted by the god or simply because they train in magic as part of their faith. I'd run him as a Fey Pact, since they have more of the Elf-y spells on their list.

RP is the small concern here. Maybe he's not a Paladin at all, he's just using the chassis. Maybe he RPs as some kind of cursed child who can "steal" Divine power from the gods, and a Fiend has seen what a powerful tool this would be, and seduced him. You can answer for anything with a combination of good RP, and remembering that Multiclassing doesn't have to give you all the "RP rules" of both classes. It just gives you a bit of their "crunch"

[Klorox]

Maybe I'm misremembering -- it was a long time ago. :)

I thought Elven Chainmail was elf-only and was the same AC as regular chainmail, but lighter and... quieter?

And I did think the Elf spell list included a few things that were either druid spells or unique to Elf.

Mostly, though, the advantage I recall was survivability at low levels.

I think you're mixing 1e and 2e AD&D into your thoughts.

Elves chain mail was magical armor, and thieves would wear it (with very minor penalties to their skills). In 2e, armor prevented casting arcane spells, but multi or dual classed characters could cast while wearing elven chain.

Rangers in 1e had some druid spells. Bards too.

Elves (as a class) in basic D&D were powerful, but their drawback was they took drastically more XP to advance in levels than anybody else.

[Willie the Duck]

I think you're mixing 1e and 2e AD&D into your thoughts.

Elves chain mail was magical armor, and thieves would wear it (with very minor penalties to their skills). In 2e, armor prevented casting arcane spells, but multi or dual classed characters could cast while wearing elven chain.

Rangers in 1e had some druid spells. Bards too.

Elves (as a class) in basic D&D were powerful, but their drawback was they took drastically more XP to advance in levels than anybody else.

Yep. Elves in Od&d were actually fighter-MUs (or they could be thieves, but there were rules per se on how to do it, it just said they could be), and in most other basic D&D acted as such. Same spell list as MUs. In those editions and 1e AD&D they could cast in any armor. Elven chain (in AD&D) was like magic (got it on random treasure drops), but did not radiate as magic. I believe any MU/mage could cast in it, multiclass or no. 1e rangers had both druid and wizard spells. Bards hot straight up druid spells (same spell list).

[ClintACK]

I think you're mixing 1e and 2e AD&D into your thoughts.

That's extremely possible. I played OD&D, then AD&D, then 2e. Then took a long hiatus before I came back to 3.5e+the-splatbook-explosion. And it was a long time ago.

[Klorox]

The term "gish" was a specialized role in githyanki society. They were spellcasters who were also fighters or thieves. Though I do recall the original elf (when it was a class) was the original concept.

Yes, this is where the term comes from.

Gish has evolved to mean warrior/mage to me.