How direct would you be?

[DwarvenGM]

So I'm about to run out of the abyss for my group. Most of my players are pretty laid back but I have one who absolutely hates being penalized in any way. He disrupts the game to argue and sometimes accuses me of targeting him despite far worse things happening to other players.

My general method is to email everyone a general preview of the adventure giving a basic idea of what's going to occur and hinting at possible obstacles. In my OotA I overtly hinted many times at how dark it will be.

Now the previously mentioned player want to play a Halfling rogue. While i don't usually like bluntly stating hey without dark vision your sneaking will be difficult. But at the same time I don't want him to think I'm actively trying to screw him over. He'll already be pissed when he realizes his dump stat strength is needed for escaping spider webs and any climbing in the cavernous under dark.


So I guess I'm asking would you sit down with him and flat out tell him? Or would you run the risk of him getting upset and disrupting the game?



Side note I am planning on giving him some form of goggles of dark vision after a couple levels but not at the start.

[ad_hoc]

This is something to handle with everyone in a session 0.

The best solution is to not invite him to play. In any other activity, if I knew someone was going to disrupt it I wouldn't invite them.

Life is too short.

[dickerson76]

I haven't read or played the module, so I don't know how much is based on (assuming) the Underdark in the beginning. If that's nearly the first place the PCs head, I'd tell them flat-out at the beginning. If the halfling rogue is a concept he wants to play, he needs to be aware of what he's getting into. The reason I say that is, if it were "real life" the halfling could just bug out after deciding he's putting himself into too much danger. In-game, that leaves the group in a bind as you have to work in a new character.

[caden_varn]

I'd always give someone a heads-up if I didn't think their build would work well, or work the way they expected, in an adventure. If they still wanted to do so after being warned, generally that is up to them. In this case I'd come straight out and say 'This mainly takes place in the Underdark, and virtually all the natives will have darkvision. If you don't, you are going to be at a disadvantage in a lot of areas, and will have great difficulty with things like sneaking around.'

[Contrast]

I would definately point it out to him.

This is actually a somewhat wider problem I think 5E has generally. If the DM actually uses the rules as written it becomes very difficult to justify playing any character with a stealth focus without darkvision.

Want to play a ranger fluffed as a ex-army scout? Not as a dragonborn you can't (well, prior to the new ranger anyway I guess). Want to be a thief skulking through the night? Not as a human you can't.

It wouldn't be so bad if darkvision was a rare ability or only available in specific circumstances but when most of the races in the core rulebook have it you can't really ignore it in the setting.

That said of course, its worth remembering that just because he's playing a rogue doesn't mean he necessary has any interest in trying to stealth around. He could be playing a wise-cracking smartass who's quick with a knife but has never skulked anywhere in his life. I would definately have a chat with your player to find out what his expectations are. If they include sneaking then I would definately point out the darkvision issue.

[Gastronomie]

There are two problems here.

The first problem is that you as a DM honestly should not over-punish players for their choices. Now, this is just my opinion and not all DMs agree with me, but I think it's unfair to have certain races be absolutely superior to other ones, for instance.
Like, even if he's a halfling, if he's lived in the dark alley-ish side of society, he might be better at seeing through dark than most halflings. Perhaps give him darkvision 30 feet with 1 point in point-buy or something. At least, as a DM I will try to be flexible about these sorts of stuff, even if it ignores original PHB rules.

But the second problem lies in the player himself. Honestly, I would not like to play with such a guy. He's disruptive, not only for the DM, but also for the other players...

[Laserlight]

Most of my players are pretty laid back but I have one who absolutely hates being penalized in any way. He disrupts the game to argue

If you have enough players to describe them as "most", I would simply disinvite the one who's a problem. But my job was dealing with complainers and arguers, so I don't need that as part of my hobby. YMMV.

[Ruslan]

Now the previously mentioned player want to play a Halfling rogue. While i don't usually like bluntly stating hey without dark vision your sneaking will be difficult. But at the same time I don't want him to think I'm actively trying to screw him over. He'll already be pissed when he realizes his dump stat strength is needed for escaping spider webs and any climbing in the cavernous under dark.
"A word of warning, guys, it's called the Underdark for a reason. Not having darkvision might end up being a hefty drawback."

[Addaran]

I'd definitively tell him. Or anyone who wants that combo. If you want to sneak, you'll need darkvision in at least 50% of the situation.



The first problem is that you as a DM honestly should not over-punish players for their choices. Now, this is just my opinion and not all DMs agree with me, but I think it's unfair to have certain races be absolutely superior to other ones, for instance.
Like, even if he's a halfling, if he's lived in the dark alley-ish side of society, he might be better at seeing through dark than most halflings. Perhaps give him darkvision 30 feet with 1 point in point-buy or something. At least, as a DM I will try to be flexible about these sorts of stuff, even if it ignores original PHB rules.

Problem is that even 30 won't work. Pretty much all the races will see you before you see them (60 ft darkvision). You could technically still hide cause you see where you go, but you won't know if what you hide actually give you cover for X enemy.

In OOTA, it's even worst, cause drow have 120, not jsut 60.

[Biggstick]

I would definately point it out to him.

This is actually a somewhat wider problem I think 5E has generally. If the DM actually uses the rules as written it becomes very difficult to justify playing any character with a stealth focus without darkvision.

Want to play a ranger fluffed as a ex-army scout? Not as a dragonborn you can't (well, prior to the new ranger anyway I guess). Want to be a thief skulking through the night? Not as a human you can't.

It wouldn't be so bad if darkvision was a rare ability or only available in specific circumstances but when most of the races in the core rulebook have it you can't really ignore it in the setting.

That said of course, its worth remembering that just because he's playing a rogue doesn't mean he necessary has any interest in trying to stealth around. He could be playing a wise-cracking smartass who's quick with a knife but has never skulked anywhere in his life. I would definately have a chat with your player to find out what his expectations are. If they include sneaking then I would definately point out the darkvision issue.

Your example of Ranger can most definitely be skulking around in the night at level 5. They have a spell list that has the spell Darkvision on it.

Your Human Thief can multiclass for three levels of any class with the level 2 spell Darkvision (Wizard, Sorcerer, or Druid), or five levels of Ranger for the Darkvision spell. They could even go Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight and pick up Darkvision once the class has access to level 2 spells.

Yeah it might be a small tax for the character, but if they want to play a race without darkvision, there are most definitely ways to deal with not being able to see in the dark.

[brainface]

I'd let them sneak around with a torch/lantern without being the beacon of light they probably realistically would be, and remember most dark vision using races probably like seeing color and therefore have torches and lamps too? Even drow darkvision, at 120', is really not that far a distance, I would argue they're going to be reliable on natural and magical light when they're not actively trying to hide because most people would want to see further than half a football field.

Also like: halfling rogue is terribly iconic, it really should work.

[JeenLeen]

I'd recommend telling him. Seems a fair warning. If he shrugs it off, I could even see saying how you are worried he'd feel overly penalized if he can't sneak attack often, and warn him he'll need a way to mitigate no darkvision.

To go with those who mentioned multi-classing: warlock 2 can get you an invocation that enables really good darkvision that even works in magical darkness. I could see that and the Disguise Self-at-will invocations being useful. That's less 'tax' levels than full spellcaster 3 to get it as a level 2 spell.

[CaptAl]

So I'm about to run out of the abyss for my group. Most of my players are pretty laid back but I have one who absolutely hates being penalized in any way. He disrupts the game to argue and sometimes accuses me of targeting him despite far worse things happening to other players.

My general method is to email everyone a general preview of the adventure giving a basic idea of what's going to occur and hinting at possible obstacles. In my OotA I overtly hinted many times at how dark it will be.

Now the previously mentioned player want to play a Halfling rogue. While i don't usually like bluntly stating hey without dark vision your sneaking will be difficult. But at the same time I don't want him to think I'm actively trying to screw him over. He'll already be pissed when he realizes his dump stat strength is needed for escaping spider webs and any climbing in the cavernous under dark.


So I guess I'm asking would you sit down with him and flat out tell him? Or would you run the risk of him getting upset and disrupting the game?



Side note I am planning on giving him some form of goggles of dark vision after a couple levels but not at the start.

Be perfectly direct. Tell him it's an underdark campaign and being a halfling will likely cause him issues. If he wants to go ahead with it, that's on him. When he makes a fuss, remind him that he had a choice and chose to be at a disadvantage.

[Gwiz]

I think you're way too patient with him, frankly based on your description he sounds like a child.

Tell him that this game has consequences and everything might not go his way all the time and if he can't handle that maybe he shouldn't be playing. Also tell him the game is not revolved around him, but the entire group INCLUDING the DM having fun.

[lunaticfringe]

I assume every one else is taking options that come with Darkvision?

I have been a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, I wasn't the scout we had a Dark Elf. I hid/stealthed behind the High Elf Wizard when creeping about in the Dark. The Wizard tied a Bit of rope to her belt and I held on to it in Darkness so I wouldn't stumble into things. We also had a Human Bard that loved to open Combat with Faerie Fire sooo the Darkness wasn't really an issue.

I would say something like this:

There is going a lot of Darkness, you are the only without. I'm playing this RAW so you will be Blinded in Darkness. Have you considered Deep Gnome?

That is IF that is the only Character with out Darkvision. If not your party will think of something as a group.

[Warwick]

One option is to simply tell him that the character is not suitable to the campaign. I feel like this is an underrated choice - while the GM should try to be accommodating, it is also their job to make sure that the PCs are all appropriate to the campaign. Help him find a compromise concept if need be. You wouldn't let a player show up with a literal basketweaver as a character. While this is less egregious, it is in the same vein. It's far kinder to tell them before you begin than to let them stumble blindly through several sessions and build up resentment because you forgot to tell them that their character is horribly gimped in your game.

Another is to patch the issue. You mention giving him some darkvision goggles. Or let him pick a background that gives him darkvision (Magical Test Subject: You have blue skin and darkvision. Now go out there and shank some drow).

A more complicated option is to patch the campaign/game. Darkvision is, depending on the campaign, either borderline mandatory or virtually irrelevant, and unless you tell them, the players don't know which. Tweak encounters and whatnot to be less dark. Okay, its the underdark, so this might strain plausibility, but what can you do. Alternatively, do what we do at my table, and mostly ignore illumination rules unless its a specific point of the scene. These are more work and/or clumsy, and I don't recommend them, but they are options.



The best solution is to not invite him to play.

I feel like people on D&D forums are really quick to hand out this advice.

[DwarvenGM]

Thanks for the feedback, it seems like a large number of you think I should let him know bluntly.

I think I may go that route.

Also a few have asked about the other party members. We have 2 dwarves, a dragonborn, 2 humans plus the halfling. So over have the group lacks dark vision. The other players picked up on their potential blindness and made sure they grabbed light spells, or have talked to me about the abundance of luminescent fungi. So they, at least seem like, are trying to creatively work around the perpetual darkness.

I think I was being a little harsh not directly telling him I assumed since everyone else seemed to pick up on the need for light and or darkvision he should too. Looking back on it tha probably was unfair.

[Ruslan]

Another is to patch the issue. You mention giving him some darkvision goggles. Or let him pick a background that gives him darkvision (Magical Test Subject: You have blue skin and darkvision. Now go out there and shank some drow).
I like the mutation option. However, since you can't get something for nothing...


Any race without darkvision may forego 1 point of racial ability score increases and gain Darkvision. This represents a slight racial mutation.

[lunaticfringe]

Thanks for the feedback, it seems like a large number of you think I should let him know bluntly.

I think I may go that route.

Also a few have asked about the other party members. We have 2 dwarves, a dragonborn, 2 humans plus the halfling. So over have the group lacks dark vision. The other players picked up on their potential blindness and made sure they grabbed light spells, or have talked to me about the abundance of luminescent fungi. So they, at least seem like, are trying to creatively work around the perpetual darkness.

I think I was being a little harsh not directly telling him I assumed since everyone else seemed to pick up on the need for light and or darkvision he should too. Looking back on it tha probably was unfair.

Boom see there you have it. I wouldn't say being unfair just overly cautious based on past experience. Maybe a bit of an overreaction considering other Non Darkvision characters have Light, I mean how many people need it in a party?

[DwarvenGM]

Boom see there you have it. I wouldn't say being unfair just overly cautious based on past experience. Maybe a bit of an overreaction considering other Non Darkvision characters have Light, I mean how many people need it in a party?


Well I've seen him play rogues before every rogue he plays sneaks away from the party a lot. So the other part members having light won't affect him much unless he plays this 1 completely different then before. The reason for multiple light spells is they are a creative group and have found various uses multiple castings of light and mage hand. Throw in message r minor image and my group will spend 30 minutes making one off the wall plan.

[Contrast]

Your example of Ranger can most definitely be skulking around in the night at level 5. They have a spell list that has the spell Darkvision on it.

Your Human Thief can multiclass for three levels of any class with the level 2 spell Darkvision (Wizard, Sorcerer, or Druid), or five levels of Ranger for the Darkvision spell. They could even go Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight and pick up Darkvision once the class has access to level 2 spells.

Yeah it might be a small tax for the character, but if they want to play a race without darkvision, there are most definitely ways to deal with not being able to see in the dark.

If you consider multiclassing 3 or 5 levels a 'small tax' then you and me seem to be playing a different game.

This is kinda my point - my ranger who is an expert in wilderness survival and ambushes has to wait until 5th level until he could ever consider trying to sneak up on an enemy camp at night (on the off chance they had a half orc standing guard). In every campaign I've played in this would mean that I couldn't have any sort of backstory which implied I was competant at sneaking around at night as I've never started above level 5. Even after that you have to make sure you've always got a 2nd level spell slot in reserve just in case you get woken in the middle of the night. Hell, you'd be better off sending the wizard if he can actually see in the dark until you get to level 5. In fact you'd be better off sending the wizard even if he can't - as you point out they pick up Darkvision first (obviously in practice you'd ask the wizard nicely to cast it on you but you see my point). Though this kinda works against you as well, if you have a wizard he could be using that 2nd level spell slot to cast invisibility rather than spending it on darkvision.

A number of times my DM has tried to describe a corridor or cave as dark and forboding only for 2/3rds of the party (including myself) to point out we can see perfectly fine 60ft down it.

Why would a halfling choose to become a thief of the creeping around at night variety when he knows that all the guards in town will be chosen from the guards who naturally have darkvision and he doesn't. He wouldn't, so now you have to either pretend darkvision doesn't exist, come up with a new basic concept or choose a race with darkvision.


I'd let them sneak around with a torch/lantern without being the beacon of light they probably realistically would be, and remember most dark vision using races probably like seeing color and therefore have torches and lamps too? Even drow darkvision, at 120', is really not that far a distance, I would argue they're going to be reliable on natural and magical light when they're not actively trying to hide because most people would want to see further than half a football field.

Also like: halfling rogue is terribly iconic, it really should work.

This is why I said there wouldn't be bright light anywhere in the Underdark. There will be dim light (in which creatures with darkvision can see perfectly fine) - why bother with brighter lighting though? They'd have disadvantage on perception checks beyond their darkvision range - I don't think thats that big a deal in the day to day life in a city and outside its probably better to have no lights as they would make you a beacon rather than helping you. If anything you would assume bright light would seem glaringly bright to a creature from the Underdark.


I usually prefer to try and just handwave these issues away but I guess if you're in the Underdark constantly thats not really viable.

[Addaran]

Thanks for the feedback, it seems like a large number of you think I should let him know bluntly.

I think I may go that route.

Also a few have asked about the other party members. We have 2 dwarves, a dragonborn, 2 humans plus the halfling. So over have the group lacks dark vision. The other players picked up on their potential blindness and made sure they grabbed light spells, or have talked to me about the abundance of luminescent fungi. So they, at least seem like, are trying to creatively work around the perpetual darkness.

I think I was being a little harsh not directly telling him I assumed since everyone else seemed to pick up on the need for light and or darkvision he should too. Looking back on it tha probably was unfair.

Lots of characters without darkvision, so it's entirely viable to be an halfling. Only thing is to make sure what role he wanted to play, since sneaking won't work well in dark situations. One of the dwarves or someone with familiar could fill the role in those situations.

[Demonslayer666]

If he tries to sneak off on his own in pitch back, tell him he can't see anything. That's not picking on him or his choice of race. I don't think any warning is necessary.

I doubt the campaign is entirely in the dark, but then again I haven't seen it.

[Firechanter]

Well, 5E vision/illumination rules are a bad joke, anyway.

Now the advice I was going to give is already obsolete, since basically only 2 of your party actually _have_ Darkvision. If it was only one character without -- e.g. the Halfling Rogue -- I'd just seed a pair of Night Goggles into the treasure drops and be done with it. But if most of them don't have it... tricky.

In our last game most of the party also were Humans (3 of 5 to be precise). We simply used Light Spells and Continual Flame all the time. Nobody had any ambitions of stealth anyway, so we didn't bother about giving away our presence.

You seem to have already talked to your players about the underdarkish nature of that adventure. That's good, I would have done the same. If the players are in the clear that it's going to be kind of a remake of Pitch Black, you have done your duty, and they can think of ways how to handle it.

[Tanarii]

This is kinda my point - my ranger who is an expert in wilderness survival and ambushes has to wait until 5th level until he could ever consider trying to sneak up on an enemy camp at night (on the off chance they had a half orc standing guard).You seem to be confusing a dark night and the dark of underground.

Edit: That said, I agree D&D 5e could really use more than 3 degrees of illumination. At the very least something to distinguish between "starlit new moon night with no clouds" and "underground".

[MBControl]

I haven't had that problem with a specific player, but I've also had to give blunt hints to a group before certain campaigns, and I think that is fair. I would also send a clear message, to ALL the players from the start, that there will be challenges that will be hard to overcome, or that you may need to adapt to, but you will not abide complaining about how you are running the game. Tell them that you will do your best to create an enjoyable experience for all involved.

If you continue to have a problem with this individual, simply invite him to DM instead, because you won't continue if his behavior doesn't improve. This will likely encourage the rest of the party to weigh in, as it puts their enjoyment at risk. Last resort, tell him that if he isn't enjoying the game, maybe he shouldn't participate.

[Delicious Taffy]

I have a player who is similarly disruptive and allergic to the most minor of penalties, with a habit of accusations of deliberately singling him out. If your player is anything like mine, he's going to be impossible to please without constantly planting your lips firmly on his buttocks and keeping them there for the duration of the campaign. I'm in a position where I can't remove my problem player without basically cancelling the campaign (which my other players are invested in), but if you can manage it, I suggest removing yours.

[Saeviomage]

Do you typically walk around your house with only your phone flashlight for illumination? That's what relying on darkvision in pitch blackness is like.

Now sure, some creatures don't have the ability to make light sources, but I would expect most intelligent creatures in the underdark will have at least a dim light source nearby them. To me, that's going to be enough that your rogue will be able to sneak around at least a bit.

[Occasional Sage]

Thanks for the feedback, it seems like a large number of you think I should let him know bluntly.

I think I may go that route.


I haven't seen anybody ask you: why in the world WOULDN'T you talk directly to him? What do you gain by staying quiet and waiting for the disaster to strike?

[Zalabim]

It really doesn't matter what kind of darkvision you have, if any at all, if you're sneaking up on a camp, relying on the cover of darkness, and you come within 60' of their sentry with darkvision, you could be in trouble. That goes double for dark elf sentries with 120' darkvision. There aren't really rules covering wandering around in the dark, but if you're relying on dim candlelight, you really will be in trouble. Other than that, a dwarf is in no better a position than a halfling, really. They can't see anyone in their darkvision range before being spotted themselves unless their victim is lit up somehow or lacks darkvision altogether.

[Safety Sword]

Bad things happen to Good PCs. :smallamused:

That's what D&D is about :smalltongue:

[DwarvenGM]

I haven't seen anybody ask you: why in the world WOULDN'T you talk directly to him? What do you gain by staying quiet and waiting for the disaster to strike?

Well I guess it's because unless a character would be useless or at a disadvantage other characters would not I don't like to flat out say "Well features X, y and Z will be pretty useful." The campaign is partly about surviving in an alien landscape so it's not like I'm trying to add extra difficulty on him alone. And I already given out descriptions of the upcoming campaign mentioning the difficulties they'll face.

I may be a little harsh but when I mention lack of light 4 or 5 times in a description of the campaign part of me expects players to prepare for the darkness. But the wise posters here have shown me the light

[Firechanter]

You seem to be confusing a dark night and the dark of underground.

Edit: That said, I agree D&D 5e could really use more than 3 degrees of illumination. At the very least something to distinguish between "starlit new moon night with no clouds" and "underground".

That's what I'm saying about moronic illumination rules. 5E doesn't even discriminate between "a clear full moon night" and "underground". RAW, Humans are "blinded". Whoever wrote that apparently never went for a nighttime walk in the forest in his life.

That said, we handle illumination very liberally in our game, at least with one particular DM. When there's any kind of light, we usually treat the area as "brightly lit" - so no fiddling with Disad to everything.

[Tanarii]

That's what I'm saying about moronic illumination rules. 5E doesn't even discriminate between "a clear full moon night" and "underground". RAW, Humans are "blinded". Whoever wrote that apparently never went for a nighttime walk in the forest in his life.
Well remember, blinded doesn't stop you from moving around without tripping things. Which is terrible if you're talking about a pitch black underground room, but perfectly fine for outside at night.

The need to prevent a completely debilitating condition in not being able to see at all, and have quick and simple rules for the abstraction, clearly leave a few things to be desired.

However, since we are talking about underground, if anything being blinded is probably too little penalty for characters, not too much. It'll still be sufficient that playing a non-darkvision scouty-type isn't going to work well (or at all).

[Biggstick]

If you consider multiclassing 3 or 5 levels a 'small tax' then you and me seem to be playing a different game.

This is kinda my point - my ranger who is an expert in wilderness survival and ambushes has to wait until 5th level until he could ever consider trying to sneak up on an enemy camp at night (on the off chance they had a half orc standing guard). In every campaign I've played in this would mean that I couldn't have any sort of backstory which implied I was competant at sneaking around at night as I've never started above level 5. Even after that you have to make sure you've always got a 2nd level spell slot in reserve just in case you get woken in the middle of the night. Hell, you'd be better off sending the wizard if he can actually see in the dark until you get to level 5. In fact you'd be better off sending the wizard even if he can't - as you point out they pick up Darkvision first (obviously in practice you'd ask the wizard nicely to cast it on you but you see my point). Though this kinda works against you as well, if you have a wizard he could be using that 2nd level spell slot to cast invisibility rather than spending it on darkvision.

A number of times my DM has tried to describe a corridor or cave as dark and forboding only for 2/3rds of the party (including myself) to point out we can see perfectly fine 60ft down it.

Why would a halfling choose to become a thief of the creeping around at night variety when he knows that all the guards in town will be chosen from the guards who naturally have darkvision and he doesn't. He wouldn't, so now you have to either pretend darkvision doesn't exist, come up with a new basic concept or choose a race with darkvision.

What kind of backstory involves you sneaking around at night and into an enemy camp pre-level 1, and surviving? Let me tell you, the only story that has that is one where you're working as a group. You're barely going to survive an encounter with a pair of goblins at level 1, let alone sneaking into an enemy camp.

You can still absolutely play your Ranger who's an expert in the wilderness. Even Aragorn was pretty screwed when looking for something at night, and he was still a pretty solid (sarcasm, he was freaking amazing) wilderness expert.

A Halfling could decide to become a thief of the creeping around at night variety despite the vision problems because they know about the challenges present and will still figure out ways to overcome them. I'm not sure why a Halfling thief is suddenly unable to be a thief just because it's dark out.

As for the multiclassing to be a small tax, those are merely options one can pursue to gain dark vision yourself. Someone else brought up a multiclass with Warlock as well for Devil's Sight, which is another great option. There are magic items that spells can be stored in, or Night Vision Goggles from the dmg. There are many ways to go about gaining dark vision; just because a PC doesn't have it from the start of their story doesn't mean they still can't be a sneaking around in the dark type. They'll just do so quite a bit more carefully and help from allies.

[Contrast]

You seem to be confusing a dark night and the dark of underground.

Edit: That said, I agree D&D 5e could really use more than 3 degrees of illumination. At the very least something to distinguish between "starlit new moon night with no clouds" and "underground".

The rules on lighting specifically say that even 'most' moonlight nights will be in darkness, while a 'brilliant full moon might' count as dim light (emphasis mine). I did say, if I were running a 5E game I'd handwave away a lot of these issues (precisely because I think they're stupid). My criticism was of the rules as written. As I said, it becomes a bit harder to hand wave them away though when you're specifically going for an entire adventure in the Underdark, one of the keys things about which is that its...you know...dark.


Do you typically walk around your house with only your phone flashlight for illumination? That's what relying on darkvision in pitch blackness is like.

Now sure, some creatures don't have the ability to make light sources, but I would expect most intelligent creatures in the underdark will have at least a dim light source nearby them. To me, that's going to be enough that your rogue will be able to sneak around at least a bit.

A specific example in the rules is that a candle gives bright light out to 1.5m and dim light out to 3m. So if you wouldn't feel comfortable doing something 3m away from a candle, your darkvision equipped characters should be seeking out dim light to do it (though I'd tend to be generous on this as a candle giving out bright light in a 1.5m radius seems pretty generous to me as well though thats likely just a result of 5E only working in 5ft blocks).


What kind of backstory involves you sneaking around at night and into an enemy camp pre-level 1, and surviving? Let me tell you, the only story that has that is one where you're working as a group. You're barely going to survive an encounter with a pair of goblins at level 1, let alone sneaking into an enemy camp.

You can still absolutely play your Ranger who's an expert in the wilderness. Even Aragorn was pretty screwed when looking for something at night, and he was still a pretty solid (sarcasm, he was freaking amazing) wilderness expert.

A Halfling could decide to become a thief of the creeping around at night variety despite the vision problems because they know about the challenges present and will still figure out ways to overcome them. I'm not sure why a Halfling thief is suddenly unable to be a thief just because it's dark out.

As for the multiclassing to be a small tax, those are merely options one can pursue to gain dark vision yourself. Someone else brought up a multiclass with Warlock as well for Devil's Sight, which is another great option. There are magic items that spells can be stored in, or Night Vision Goggles from the dmg. There are many ways to go about gaining dark vision; just because a PC doesn't have it from the start of their story doesn't mean they still can't be a sneaking around in the dark type. They'll just do so quite a bit more carefully and help from allies.

My specific example was as an ex-army scout. Pretty sure the boss wouldn't be impressed when you come back to the camp and report you've found some of the enemy but you're not sure how many or even if it was the enemy at all rather than a camping trade caravan because you couldn't get close enough to tell in case they had a darkvision lookout. I will assume the angle you were going for with the above is that in a group you can rely on the person who does have it but this is exactly my point. In a world where a large percentage of the population can just see in the dark, they would be the ones who would do all the jobs where being able to see in the dark would be an advantage. Why would you send any scouts out on a night mission who couldn't see in the dark when you have people who can literally see in the dark? The only answer would be if you physically don't have enough (say, you're in a dragonborn nation and there are only dragonborn in that nation and ignoring the idea that mercenaries are a thing) - all this does is make your night recon unit the bumbling laughing stock of the elven scouts who are sitting in the trees 60ft away laughing at half your squad bumping into trees.

As we've already discussed, you could have wizards cast darkvision on you so now you're not bumping into trees. But the elves can match that and are now sitting invisible in the trees as their wizards had spell slots to spare from not casting dark vision, quietly sniggering as you try to sneak around.

My point isn't really that you can't do these things per se but rather than if you want to make any kind of stealthy night style character you immediately have to start coming up with all these convoluted explanations to explain how your character has managed to deal with their night blindness all these years up to this point. Suddenly you can't play a halfling rogue, you have to play a halfling rogue who happened to be friends with a local wizard who didn't mind him stopping by at dinner time every day and didn't ask any questions about why he kept on wanting dark vision cast on himself.

Again, I'm not arguing dark vision is difficult to get. If anything my argument is the opposite of that - its too prevalent in terms of most of the races in the PHB having darkvision. At that point it becomes very difficult to explain why anyone suffering from night blindness would be in an occupation where any person who can actually see would instantly be better than them at the job.

Now if your setting has humans as 99.5% of the population, its not really a problem anymore. Scarcity resolves the problem and shortcuts you having to come up with inventive explanations.

With your example of Aragorn - I can't remember if the orcs/goblins/dwarves/elves in LotR are ever stated to have improved night vision (you'd assume so from the fact that dwarves and goblins are shown to be happy living underground on a permanent basis but you never know) but I don't recall any examples in the book where they actually showed us characters sneaking up on them at night either (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't read them in years). Say I wanted to make my character based on Aragorn (as you say, a badass wilderness expert). Cool. Except I have to include in my backstory how I used to go around with my elf and dwarf companions so they could guide me around during the night as I automatically fail all vision based tests in the dark and couldn't have tracked those hobbits for toffee on my own without waiting until daylight which have left us miles behind. Suddenly I'm having to write into my own backstory that I'm a less useful tracker than my fighter dwarf friend. Now if dwarves and elves don't exist or are very rare I can be comparatively bad ass compared to the other humans. But the moment an elf walks on the scene its no use explaining how amazing at tracking I am if I physically can't see the tracks while the elf can.

Bilbo wouldn't have been able to see the gem in the dragons hoard if he couldn't see in a dark lair and Aragorn wouldn't have been able to track Pippin and Merry. If I can't emulate your prototypical halfling rogue and human ranger, I'm arguing you've done your rules in an unsatisfactory way :smallwink:

I would point out I am specifically talking about the frame of reference whereby you specifically want your character to be a child of the night as it were. Nothing stopping you making a badass human ranger who accepts his day is done when the sun goes down.

I think my preference would be to introduce another layer of lighting as Tanarii said so you had bright, dim, dark and pitch black and reduce the range of darkvision significantly (particularly in the darker lighting) so that while its still an advantage, it isn't so great as to invalidate people without it.

To summarise my point - if 50% of humans could see perfectly fine in the dark, what percentage of night watchmen do you think would fall within that 50%? My guess is almost 100% and thats in a world where you're only ever a torch beam or light switch away from bright light environments.

[Tanarii]

THe rules on lighting specifically say that even 'most' moonlight nights will be in darkness, while a 'brilliant full moon might' count as dim light. I did say, if I were running a 5E game I'd handwave away a lot of these issues (precisely because I think they're stupid). My criticism was of the rules as written. As I said, it becomes a bit harder to hand wave them away thought when you're specifically going for an entire adventure in the Underdark, one of the keys things about which is that its...you know...dark.Oops. Left that bit out of my last post. Yeah, I went back and looked at them. For some reason I thought 'most' moonlit nights were Dim Light too when I made that first post. So yes, there definitely room for the rules abstraction to distinguish between underground-like pitch black (including heavily overcast night), and lighting equivalent to outdoors even on a moon-lit (but not bright full moon) night. Let alone star-lit new-moon night.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I'm about to run out of the abyss for my group. Most of my players are pretty laid back but I have one who absolutely hates being penalized in any way. He disrupts the game to argue and sometimes accuses me of targeting him despite far worse things happening to other players.

My general method is to email everyone a general preview of the adventure giving a basic idea of what's going to occur and hinting at possible obstacles. In my OotA I overtly hinted many times at how dark it will be.

Now the previously mentioned player want to play a Halfling rogue. While i don't usually like bluntly stating hey without dark vision your sneaking will be difficult. But at the same time I don't want him to think I'm actively trying to screw him over. He'll already be pissed when he realizes his dump stat strength is needed for escaping spider webs and any climbing in the cavernous under dark.

So I guess I'm asking would you sit down with him and flat out tell him? Or would you run the risk of him getting upset and disrupting the game?

Side note I am planning on giving him some form of goggles of dark vision after a couple levels but not at the start.

He picked one of only 3 races that lack darkvision.

Remind him Halflings don't have it and give him the opportunity to switch for another race if he wants, otherwise it's on him.

[Saeviomage]

A specific example in the rules is that a candle gives bright light out to 1.5m and dim light out to 3m. So if you wouldn't feel comfortable doing something 3m away from a candle, your darkvision equipped characters should be seeking out dim light to do it (though I'd tend to be generous on this as a candle giving out bright light in a 1.5m radius seems pretty generous to me as well though thats likely just a result of 5E only working in 5ft blocks).

The idea that you should be blind 3m away from a candle seems ridiculous in and of itself. It seems to suggest (along with the other light rules) that blind doesn't actually mean you cannot see, merely that you cannot see well.

[Contrast]

The idea that you should be blind 3m away from a candle seems ridiculous in and of itself. It seems to suggest (along with the other light rules) that blind doesn't actually mean you cannot see, merely that you cannot see well.

Darkness (i.e. anything equal to or darker than all but the most bright of moonlit nights) counts as heavily obscuring vision. Vision being heavily obscured inflicts the blinded condition. The blinded conditions first bullet point is specifically 'A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check which requires sight'. Not sure how much clearer the rules could be on that issue.

To be clear once again - I'm not arguing that this is sensible or how you should run your games. I'm pointing out that, per the rules, darkvision makes a massive difference to the capabilities of your character in any dark environment and you really need to talk with your DM about how darkness is going to work because if they're going to run it RAW then your character will be useless at any task which involves stealth at night as they need a light source. I would strongly suggest any DM to think about changing how the sight rules work or just hand waving them entirely.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, it's a consequence of attempting to have a relatively simple rules abstraction of the in-game reality. Specifically a two state vision (blind / not blind) and a three state lighting (bright / dim / darkness).

[Sigreid]

If you've told them that it's underdark focused and he still wants to be a halfling rogue, when he starts whining tell him he was warned about the environment with everyone else and he needs to grow up and embrace the challenge of dealing with his choice.

[Safety Sword]

Honestly, you choose a character race mostly not knowing what's going to happen to the character at the start of every game.

I mean, the game is one of overcoming challenges.

If one of my players complained that the story takes them into the dark and they can't see I would play a very small violin for them and push on.



The start of the campaign sees you wake up in Drow captivity. Pretty sure drow don't only take slaves who can see in the dark. In fact, most populated areas of the underdark are based around places where phosphorescent moss are. Considering characters are presumable made before the capture happens, it's unlikely any of them are made with this in mind.



TLDR; Play the character you decided to play no matter what the challenges are.

[Firechanter]

Stories usually are about heroes who turn up at the right place and time. That's because the author designed them that way. In RPGs that's a bit different, but if you agree that a show like, say, Blood and Sand wouldn't work if the protagonist was not Spartacus but Dr John Dorian, maybe you can also agree that the characters of an RPG adventure should fit the story you're trying to build. To make this possible, the players need to have some General idea of what lies ahead.

[INDYSTAR188]

In my campaign of OotA the group of PCs just found/rescued Dawnbringer. It's really not too much different from the group just using a torch (they can both be 'extinguished'). It of course is a disadvantage but even in Moria in LotR they used a light (didn't they, can't quite remember? :smallredface:). I think it's preferable if darkvision is a thing for everyone but I don't think it should stop a player from enjoying a concept they really want to play.

[Safety Sword]

Stories usually are about heroes who turn up at the right place and time. That's because the author designed them that way. In RPGs that's a bit different, but if you agree that a show like, say, Blood and Sand wouldn't work if the protagonist was not Spartacus but Dr John Dorian, maybe you can also agree that the characters of an RPG adventure should fit the story you're trying to build. To make this possible, the players need to have some General idea of what lies ahead.

I agree that an RPG story should be tailored to the characters. I don't agree that every character should perfectly be built for the challenges.

Player's don't need any idea of what lies ahead, only the starting information for the world and current events as their characters understand them.

You take away the ability to foreshadow and build suspense if you give away that your bunch of heroes are going to have to venture into the underdark to save the world. I prefer to keep my players engaged by finding out the truth of the world through play. I like to keep their characters in the dark (sometimes literally :smallamused:) about things they wouldn't have any knowledge of.

[Laserlight]

Stories usually are about heroes who turn up at the right place and time. That's because the author designed them that way. In RPGs that's a bit different, but if you agree that a show like, say, Blood and Sand wouldn't work if the protagonist was not Spartacus but Dr John Dorian, maybe you can also agree that the characters of an RPG adventure should fit the story you're trying to build. To make this possible, the players need to have some General idea of what lies ahead.

I gather OP has repeatedly told them it's Underdark, which one would think would be enough of a clue.

However, a career in sales and tech support has taught me that a lot of people need to be told things as explicitly as possible, in simple and blunt terms, at least five times...and even then you will get people who stare at you blankly and wail "But, but, but why didn't you tell me?"

[Herobizkit]

4e had a Dark Light ritual (http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Light) that proved very useful for my Human Warlock.

It shouldn't be too difficult to rig a custom spell or magic item to do the same, especially if you allow the PC's to BUILD it from scratch (via a schematic, say, requiring certain components and slapping them together).

[Sigreid]

Well remember, blinded doesn't stop you from moving around without tripping things. Which is terrible if you're talking about a pitch black underground room, but perfectly fine for outside at night.

The need to prevent a completely debilitating condition in not being able to see at all, and have quick and simple rules for the abstraction, clearly leave a few things to be desired.

However, since we are talking about underground, if anything being blinded is probably too little penalty for characters, not too much. It'll still be sufficient that playing a non-darkvision scouty-type isn't going to work well (or at all).

It's not impossible to scout ahead in a cave when completely blinded. You just have to be very careful and keep in contact with one wall. This was learned by breaking my flashlight bulb when deep down in a volcanic cave.

[Firechanter]

I gather OP has repeatedly told them it's Underdark, which one would think would be enough of a clue.


Yes, but my reply was to Safety Sword who believes OP shouldn't have done that.

@Safety Sword:
when you play a published adventure you can't tailor the story to the characters. So my spontaneous conclusion would be to tailor the characters to the story.

Well, I don't know more abou OotA than has been said in this thread. Maybe illumination isn't such an issue. But the idea of stumbling around in the dark, with disad to nearly everything, while my enemies see perfectly, just doesn't sound very fun to me. Maybe interesting for one session, but would get old quick.

[Contrast]

It's not impossible to scout ahead in a cave when completely blinded. You just have to be very careful and keep in contact with one wall. This was learned by breaking my flashlight bulb when deep down in a volcanic cave.

And explain to me exactly how effective that form of scouting would be when the enemies you're looking for are all wearing night vision goggles, as are several other members of the party? :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

It's not impossible to scout ahead in a cave when completely blinded. You just have to be very careful and keep in contact with one wall. This was learned by breaking my flashlight bulb when deep down in a volcanic cave.


And explain to me exactly how effective that form of scouting would be when the enemies you're looking for are all wearing night vision goggles, as are several other members of the party? :smallbiggrin:
Yeah that's what I meant. OTOH, if you're moving stealthily, and your opponents aren't, you are still a scout. Because you'll hear them automatically without perception checks at some point. And they may not see or hear you, if you succeed on your stealth check. So technically, yes, you can do it.

When you'll be screwed is when you come across enemies moving stealthily. In that case, you'll be making Perception checks. At disadvantage. At Rogue-level-spot (ie 8 or 10 Wis), even with expertise you're likely to fail with disadvantage.

[Sigreid]

And explain to me exactly how effective that form of scouting would be when the enemies you're looking for are all wearing night vision goggles, as are several other members of the party? :smallbiggrin:

Away from the party you can listen for sounds creatures while creeping along. Darkvision says see in darkness as dim light with no color vision. This means that most intelligent creatures with darkvision would want at least dim light so they would gain the benefits of bright light and could enjoy color. Dim light is something else you could locate fairly easily as a darkness blinded scout.

[Safety Sword]

Away from the party you can listen for sounds creatures while creeping along. Darkvision says see in darkness as dim light with no color vision. This means that most intelligent creatures with darkvision would want at least dim light so they would gain the benefits of bright light and could enjoy color. Dim light is something else you could locate fairly easily as a darkness blinded scout.


If you're suggesting that you should stumble around blinded by darkness because the bad guys with darkvision will carry torches so they can "enjoy colour", I have news for you.

Darkvision is a natural advantage and would be used as such. You never give away your position if you can help it. I'll take hard to find and seeing in black and white over transmitting my location with a beacon of dim light so I can use my eyes colour receptors.


Yes, but my reply was to Safety Sword who believes OP shouldn't have done that.

@Safety Sword:
when you play a published adventure you can't tailor the story to the characters. So my spontaneous conclusion would be to tailor the characters to the story.



Published adventures can be tailored to whatever extent you want. Massive tangents are possible if you feel like it. Only organised play makes you go straight down the line with the story.

Again, the story in Out of the Abyss literally starts with "Surprise, you've been captured. What next?" so to maintain the surprise I wouldn't be telling people a whole lot about what comes next. You're supposed to find yourself in an unfamiliar environment and overcome the challenges of the enemy and environment. Having to use a light cantrip or carry a torch is hardly a massive "gotcha". It has very limited impact on a character throughout most of the adventure.

[Sigreid]

If you're suggesting that you should stumble around blinded by darkness because the bad guys with darkvision will carry torches so they can "enjoy colour", I have news for you.

Darkvision is a natural advantage and would be used as such. You never give away your position if you can help it. I'll take hard to find and seeing in black and white over transmitting my location with a beacon of dim light so I can use my eyes colour receptors.


Yes, assuming whoever you are coming near has reason to expect a fight. Any pursuers I would expect to either be moving quickly and quietly to take advantage of their native gifts, or using lanterns and whatever passes for a bloodhound to assist them with moving swiftly and accurately. Denizens of the underdark that have no particular reason to expect the party are just living their lives.

[Safety Sword]

Yes, assuming whoever you are coming near has reason to expect a fight. Any pursuers I would expect to either be moving quickly and quietly to take advantage of their native gifts, or using lanterns and whatever passes for a bloodhound to assist them with moving swiftly and accurately. Denizens of the underdark that have no particular reason to expect the party are just living their lives.

The underdark is a pretty hostile place with lots of things that would like to kill you. You wouldn't go on a military patrol outside of civilisation wearing giant neon signs telling the enemy where you are. You try to limit your exposure to enemy sensors (whether natural, magical or mechanical). Considering races such as the drow have superior darkvision it's actually preposterous to think that they would announce themselves by carrying light sources.

Remember these guys are intelligent. They know how to hide and move stealthily. Why wouldn't they do that? They would at least have forward and rear scouts in super stealth mode if the main body of their patrol was (for some reason I can't fathom) carrying light sources.

[Sigreid]

The underdark is a pretty hostile place with lots of things that would like to kill you. You wouldn't go on a military patrol outside of civilisation wearing giant neon signs telling the enemy where you are. You try to limit your exposure to enemy sensors (whether natural, magical or mechanical). Considering races such as the drow have superior darkvision it's actually preposterous to think that they would announce themselves by carrying light sources.

Remember these guys are intelligent. They know how to hide and move stealthily. Why wouldn't they do that? They would at least have forward and rear scouts in super stealth mode if the main body of their patrol was (for some reason I can't fathom) carrying light sources.

We shall once again have to agree to disagree. Have a good one.

[Saeviomage]

Darkness (i.e. anything equal to or darker than all but the most bright of moonlit nights) counts as heavily obscuring vision. Vision being heavily obscured inflicts the blinded condition. The blinded conditions first bullet point is specifically 'A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check which requires sight'. Not sure how much clearer the rules could be on that issue.

Yeah, the problem is that either
a) You're trying to simulate being underground in a cave. At this point, even normal actions like spotting someone standing 1m away from you should be failing, as should things like attempting to walk at a brisk pace, and just about every skill that you can still attempt should become significantly harder. Combat is ridiculous too: the default is that you know what 5' square your foe is in unless he tries to be sneaky, and the only penalty to try to hit him is disadvantage. If you've ever played blind man's bluff or Marco polo, you should realise how stupid this is.

b) If you do assume that even trivial things require a roll, then "those rolls all fail" doesn't work either, because suddenly it's impossible to see someone standing 3.01m away from a candle.