Spider-Type Divine Beast Optimization

[Schattenbach]

Hello,

while rereading the "Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka?" / "I'm a Spider, so What?" web novel, I've been thinking ... would be nice to recreate some uber powerful giant spider monster - like the Queen Taratect - in some way or another ...

... so I took a look at whatever spider monsters crawel around in the DnD 3.5 worlds ... and took a look at the CR41 & 128 HD Devastation Spider ... though that spider is mindless like pretty much most (natural) spiders, it provides quite decent foundation to make something terrifying out of it. If someone has any other suggestions about what other kind of colossal spider to use,

Restrictions ...
... non-evil
... highly intelligent (Int 20+)
... has to be colossal sized or otherwise be at least of 30 metres length
... can damage Allips and other annoying things just fine
... has to have some way to deal with flying opponents
... isn't allowed to be excessively mutated and/or disgusting (it's supposed to be majestetic to at least some degree)
... has to possess at least one additional natural weapon & is able to fight against several opponents/entire armies at once
... has to be able to callenge or outright slaughter most epic threats (though those with specific regeneration might still be troublesome to handle in the end) up to and including epic dragons & epic PCs
... has to still be able to make effective uses of spider webs (even if it might have stronger options, its spider web shouldn't become utterly worthless unless something freedom of movement comes into play).
... should come at least close to being as strong as its CR suggests (if not stronger).

I tried to create something powerful out of it by applying a bnch of Templates on top of it but I guess there are better options to make it even more despair-inducing

Applied Templates on top of the CR41 Devastation spider ... :

+Warbeast (LA+0); CR+1 (provides a few stat boosts and such, increases Hit-Dice by 1 & base speed by 10)
+Draconic Creature ... (LA+1); CR+1 (provides minor boosts and Claw attacks)
+Shadow Creature (LA+2); CR+1 (provides various defensive benefits + stealth & increases speed by 1,5 times)
+ Anarchic Creature ... (LA+5); CR+2 (increases Int to at least 3 ... provides some immunities and such & other unimportant stuff, but, most importantly, turns natural weapons into magic weapons)
+Phrenic Creature Template (LA+2); CR+3? (increases Int to at least 3 ... provides SR equal to HD+10 & several spell like abilities with casterlevel=HD)
+ Dark Creature (for Hidding in Plain Sight, additional Sneak & slight increase in movement speed & more importantly ... allows slight change of character morality). (LA+1); CR+1?
+ Paragon Creature (LA+///); CR+12 (provides extremely huge boost to pretty much everything, from damage to HP to stats to DCs, feats, ecetera)
+ Monster Of Legend (LA+///); CR+2 (provides various interesting benefits besides stat boosts & two free feats ... most importantly, it strengthens natural attacks & their dice size &
changes type to Outsider & provides one - weak - breath weapon)
((+ Half-Titan ... (if it can be applied to this creature and doesn't change its look to much ... I would've to look that template up again ... provides stats and such & changes type to Outsider ... and cleric casting equal to HD) (LA+8); CR+5))

= Str +30, Dex +21, Con +28, Int +22, Wis +21, Cha +21 & CR+23? (without Half-Titan Template)
= Str +46, Dex +21, Con +44, Int +24, Wis +25, Cha +21 & CR+28?

HP = 128*(8+12) + 128*((68-10)/2) = 2560 + 3712 = 6272 HP
OR
HP = 128*(8+12) + 128*((74-10)/2) = 2560 + 4096 = 6656 HP

SR=HD+10=138
Movement speed (land): 345 feet
Now that it actually got its INT score, though, it might also get access to feats (and with 128 HD, that#s ... quite a lot of feats ... including lots and lots of epic feats).
Casts as Level 128 Cleric (as well as, possibly, plenty of epic spells) ... if the Half-Titan Template can be applied to it

CR: 41+23/28 = 64/69


Has someone some suggestions (or would like to point out some kind of mistake or something I've overlooked) to further improve this spider?

Thanks in advance.

[Name1]

Nah, you're good. The book mentions that Outsiders can be considered living and corporeal in the half-beholder entry by specifically mentioning them as an exception to said template, so Half-Titan can be applied, which makes it a powerful enough threat. The cleric spellcasting of such a high level + Epic Spellcasting DOES overshadow everything else, but it makes it strong for it's CR, which is what you wanted.

[ShurikVch]

Firstly: there was Kaiju template in the Dragon #289.
It gives Colossal size, +40 HD, and bunch of various SAs/SQs;
(Int is set to 2, but from that point it's rather easy to fix it with templates and [epic] feats)
One of the possible roles for Kaiju suggested in the article is: "Kaiju as Deities"
Unfortunately, template is nonapplicable to creatures bigger than Huge, thus Devastation Spider is illegal

Secondly: there is rather easy way for boosting power of creatures With 30+ HD and Int score: Dragon #363 back-ported from 4E to 3.5 Epic Destinies, and one of them was "Demigod"!
Thus, drop 4 [epic] feats - get some Divine Ranks (RAW doesn't specified how much, but even the DvR 1 is already a tremendous power boost)

Side note: "Web" requirement is rather restrictive; do you aware big number of spider-like creatures in D&D are doesn't using web - either completely (Argent Spider (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030725a), Giant Sun Spider, Jungle Spider), or just not "as Web" (Shadow Spider from Monster Manual II, for example, use it's web "as grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)")

Questions about your creature:
Where you found the Half-Titan template?
How exactly it cast as 128 lvl Cleric?
How it's got the 345' speed?

[Name1]

Questions about your creature:
Where you found the Half-Titan template?
How exactly it cast as 128 lvl Cleric?
How it's got the 345' speed?

The Half-Titan template is from Bastards and Bloodlines.
The Half-Titan template grants cleric(or wizard) casting as a cleric(or wizard) equal to your Hit-Die.
The speed listed is wrong. It is calculated by using the speed of the Devastation Spider, adding 10 for War Beast, 10 for Dark Creature, multiplying it by 1.5 for Shadow Creature and then tripling it for Paragon creature (60+10+10 = 80. 80*1.5 = 120. 120*3 = 360 OR using the normal D&D multiplication rules: 80*(1.5-1+3) = 80*3.5 =280). So yeah, no idea where 345 comes from.

[ShurikVch]

The Half-Titan template grants cleric(or wizard) casting as a cleric(or wizard) equal to your Hit-Die.Which is kinda insulting for real Titans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (who don't cast any spells at all) and even Elder Titans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) (who, while having 70 HD, cast only as 29th level)

The speed listed is wrong. It is calculated by using the speed of the Devastation Spider, adding 10 for War Beast, 10 for Dark Creature, multiplying it by 1.5 for Shadow Creature and then tripling it for Paragon creature (60+10+10 = 80. 80*1.5 = 120. 120*3 = 360 OR using the normal D&D multiplication rules: 80*(1.5-1+3) = 80*3.5 =280). So yeah, no idea where 345 comes from.1) Wow, Devastation Spider is fast! (Especially "Hunting" variant)
2) Are you sure it's multiplication of "total speed" rather than "basic speed"?
Say, Paragon is Paragon because was born that way, but Warbeast is Warbeast because was trained to be Warbeast.
Thus, Warbeast clearly came after the Paragon, and speed bonus from it shouldn't be multiplied

[Name1]

Say, Paragon is Paragon because was born that way, but Warbeast is Warbeast because was trained to be Warbeast.
Thus, Warbeast clearly came after the Paragon, and speed bonus from it shouldn't be multiplied

I've actually never considered that, but I assuming it's true, the speed would be (60+10)*1.5*3+10 = 325 or (60+10)*3.5+10 =255, which would still not be the advertised 345 land speed.

[Schattenbach]

Nah, you're good. The book mentions that Outsiders can be considered living and corporeal in the half-beholder entry by specifically mentioning them as an exception to said template, so Half-Titan can be applied, which makes it a powerful enough threat. The cleric spellcasting of such a high level + Epic Spellcasting DOES overshadow everything else, but it makes it strong for it's CR, which is what you wanted.

Then that's fine. Thanks for the feedback.

Any suggestion about what to use that buckload of epic feats for expect for things like improved spell capacity?


Firstly: there was Kaiju template in the Dragon #289.
It gives Colossal size, +40 HD, and bunch of various SAs/SQs;
(Int is set to 2, but from that point it's rather easy to fix it with templates and [epic] feats)
One of the possible roles for Kaiju suggested in the article is: "Kaiju as Deities"
Unfortunately, template is nonapplicable to creatures bigger than Huge, thus Devastation Spider is illegal


Secondly: there is rather easy way for boosting power of creatures With 30+ HD and Int score: Dragon #363 back-ported from 4E to 3.5 Epic Destinies, and one of them was "Demigod"!
Thus, drop 4 [epic] feats - get some Divine Ranks (RAW doesn't specified how much, but even the DvR 1 is already a tremendous power boost)

I didn#t consider giving it Divine Rank up until now ... thanks for the reminding me about that & for bringing up that Kaiju template. Easier solution might be simply slapping Divine Rank 0 (which would allow it to face and slaughter - some - gods despite their "I win ... `Life and Death`" trump card) on top of it and possibly providing it some worshippers to add to its divine rank (though from that point of view, Divine Rank 0 might be enough of an boost) ... as far as I remember, deities don't necessarily die once they lose their worshippers (as long its not Forgotten Realms, that is), so that wouldn't be particulary problematic.


Side note: "Web" requirement is rather restrictive; do you aware big number of spider-like creatures in D&D are doesn't using web

Yeah, I'm aware of that but thanks for pointing it out.


Which is kinda insulting for real Titans (who don't cast any spells at all) and even Elder Titans (who, while having 70 HD, cast only as 29th level)

Yeah, that seems slightly unfair for all those Titans who would like to be effective spellcasters ... though with LA +8 or more, it#s not like they were ever all that suited for spellcasting to begin with.

As for the movement speed ...


How it's got the 345' speed?

1) Wow, Devastation Spider is fast! (Especially "Hunting" variant)
2) Are you sure it's multiplication of "total speed" rather than "basic speed"?
Say, Paragon is Paragon because was born that way, but Warbeast is Warbeast because was trained to be Warbeast.
Thus, Warbeast clearly came after the Paragon, and speed bonus from it shouldn't be multiplied


The Half-Titan template is from Bastards and Bloodlines.
The Half-Titan template grants cleric(or wizard) casting as a cleric(or wizard) equal to your Hit-Die.
The speed listed is wrong. It is calculated by using the speed of the Devastation Spider, adding 10 for War Beast, 10 for Dark Creature, multiplying it by 1.5 for Shadow Creature and then tripling it for Paragon creature (60+10+10 = 80. 80*1.5 = 120. 120*3 = 360 OR using the normal D&D multiplication rules: 80*(1.5-1+3) = 80*3.5 =280). So yeah, no idea where 345 comes from.

Land movement speed was calculated as ... ((60+10)*1,5+10)*3 = 345 ... Warbeast requires Animals, Beast or Vermin (most of the templates change type to magical beast or Outsider, ecetera, which makes it impossible to apply the Warbeast Template and I don't feel like wasting Int by applying it before applying some kind of template that raises the int score to at least 3 ... most of these templates are/can be inborn templates, anyway) & Dark Creature (with Anarchic Creature template applied beforehand) is applied to change its morality away from "Usually neutral evil" towards chaotic neutral. But right ... otherwise (with Dark Creature applied before applying Shadow Creature) it would be 360, I guess (i.e. 15 more).

Warbeasts are bred (at least that's what's been stated in the template) ... mindless vermin, for example, can also be warbeasts but they cannot be trained and thus aren't suited for the use of riders
in combat.

Interestingly ... according to the Warbeast Template, it's actually (as long as they exist) possible to aquire 128 HD Devastation Spider Warbeasts (untrained ... if there's no template applied that lets them gain int, though it's possible to awaken & train them later on with Handle Animal) each for the market price of 100 gp + 75 gp/HD (i.e. 9700 gp) ... which is ... quite cheap, I guess. It's the same for the other Devastation Vermin, though.

[ShurikVch]

Considering astonishing amount of feats, you may, say, grab about 95% of content from Magic of Incarnum by picking again and again feats "Shape Soulmeld" and "Open ... Chakra"

Also, you can pick some good stuff from Tome of Battle via Martial Study and Martial Stance feats

Note: if your spider will become Good, then Vow of Poverty is a possibility (unless your spider is rich :smallbiggrin:)


Yeah, that seems slightly unfair for all those Titans who would like to be effective spellcasters ... though with LA +8 or more, it#s not like they were ever all that suited for spellcasting to begin with.I'm OK with spellcasting itself, just noting that for this particular template it's rather out of the blue
For example, there was azerothian Ogre Mage template, which cast from the racial HD as Arcanist or Healer (and just for LA: +1 !); but it will be rather difficult to explain why the spider is Ogre... Unless you will say Ogre Spider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/spider/spider-ogre) or Deinopis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinopis) (assuming you will find game stats for it) are "count as"
Another template is Forestmaster from Bestiary Of Krynn: it cast as Druid (and the only template requirements are Magical Beast and Int&Wis 10+)


mindless vermin, for example, can also be warbeasts but they cannot be trainedActually... they can:
You can use the Handle Animal skill to handle and train vermin as if they were animals with Intelligence scores of 1.



... has to still be able to make effective uses of spider webs (even if it might have stronger options, its spider web shouldn't become utterly worthless unless something freedom of movement comes into play).You will be surprised, but Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm), actually, doesn't help against the Web: it explicitly says "magic that usually impedes movement, such as ... web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm)"; most of spider webs aren't magical
Also, FoM allow to escape grapples and pins, but Web doesn't do neither of it
Finally, it allow to freely act underwater
Nothing in the spell's RAW actually helps to deal with "ordinary" (even if oversized) spider's Web


Applied Templates on top of the CR41 Devastation spider ... :

+Warbeast (LA+0); CR+1 (provides a few stat boosts and such, increases Hit-Dice by 1 & base speed by 10)
+Draconic Creature ... (LA+1); CR+1 (provides minor boosts and Claw attacks)
+Shadow Creature (LA+2); CR+1 (provides various defensive benefits + stealth & increases speed by 1,5 times)
+ Anarchic Creature ... (LA+5); CR+2 (increases Int to at least 3 ... provides some immunities and such & other unimportant stuff, but, most importantly, turns natural weapons into magic weapons)
+Phrenic Creature Template (LA+2); CR+3? (increases Int to at least 3 ... provides SR equal to HD+10 & several spell like abilities with casterlevel=HD)
+ Dark Creature (for Hidding in Plain Sight, additional Sneak & slight increase in movement speed & more importantly ... allows slight change of character morality). (LA+1); CR+1?
+ Paragon Creature (LA+///); CR+12 (provides extremely huge boost to pretty much everything, from damage to HP to stats to DCs, feats, ecetera)
+ Monster Of Legend (LA+///); CR+2 (provides various interesting benefits besides stat boosts & two free feats ... most importantly, it strengthens natural attacks & their dice size &
changes type to Outsider & provides one - weak - breath weapon)
((+ Half-Titan ... (if it can be applied to this creature and doesn't change its look to much ... I would've to look that template up again ... provides stats and such & changes type to Outsider ... and cleric casting equal to HD) (LA+8); CR+5))

= Str +30, Dex +21, Con +28, Int +22, Wis +21, Cha +21 & CR+23? (without Half-Titan Template)
= Str +46, Dex +21, Con +44, Int +24, Wis +25, Cha +21 & CR+28?

HP = 128*(8+12) + 128*((68-10)/2) = 2560 + 3712 = 6272 HP
OR
HP = 128*(8+12) + 128*((74-10)/2) = 2560 + 4096 = 6656 HP

SR=HD+10=138
Movement speed (land): 345 feet
Now that it actually got its INT score, though, it might also get access to feats (and with 128 HD, that#s ... quite a lot of feats ... including lots and lots of epic feats).
Casts as Level 128 Cleric (as well as, possibly, plenty of epic spells) ... if the Half-Titan Template can be applied to it

CR: 41+23/28 = 64/69Minor nitpick: some of listed LAs are incorrect -
Monster Of Legend is LA: +7,
Paragon Creature - LA: +11,
Warbeast - LA: —.

[Name1]

Minor nitpick: some of listed LAs are incorrect -
Monster Of Legend is LA: +7,
Paragon Creature - LA: +11,
Warbeast - LA: —.

Where did you find these LAs? I've always remembered them as LA +0 equivalents, so I'm honestly surprised.

[ShurikVch]

Where did you find these LAs? I've always remembered them as LA +0 equivalents, so I'm honestly surprised.LAs for Monster of Legend and Warbeast are in the 3.5 update booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Monster_Manual_2.zip) for Monster Manual II

Paragon Creature is a bit more complicated.
LA wasn't written anywhere, but the table in the Epic Level Handbook listed "Paragon, mind flayer" as "ECL 26";
Since "ordinary" Mind Flayer is ECL 15, simple calculation give us LA: +11

[Name1]

LAs for Monster of Legend and Warbeast are in the 3.5 update booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Monster_Manual_2.zip) for Monster Manual II

Paragon Creature is a bit more complicated.
LA wasn't written anywhere, but the table in the Epic Level Handbook listed "Paragon, mind flayer" as "ECL 26";
Since "ordinary" Mind Flayer is ECL 15, simple calculation give us LA: +11

Ah ok, I found it... weird how I never noticed the mind flayer.

[Schattenbach]

Considering astonishing amount of feats, you may, say, grab about 95% of content from Magic of Incarnum by picking again and again feats "Shape Soulmeld" and "Open ... Chakra"

Also, you can pick some good stuff from Tome of Battle via Martial Study and Martial Stance feats

Thanks for those suggestions. I would to have to look those two kinds of feats ("Shape Soulmeld" & "Open Chakra" line of feats) up again ... but I'm curious ... what are they good for that they should be aquired to again and again?


Note: if your spider will become Good, then Vow of Poverty is a possibility (unless your spider is rich :smallbiggrin:)

At such high levels, Vow of Poverty is simply not worth it as the wealth level is just too big. So the spider is obviously going to be incredibly rich, what with all these slayed dragons and such that also got their horde taken away.


I'm OK with spellcasting itself, just noting that for this particular template it's rather out of the blue

Yeah, regular Titans are highly magical but aren't particulary good spellcasters when compard to their HD & stats ...


For example, there was azerothian Ogre Mage template, which cast from the racial HD as Arcanist or Healer (and just for LA: +1 !); but it will be rather difficult to explain why the spider is Ogre...
Another template is Forestmaster from Bestiary Of Krynn: it cast as Druid (and the only template requirements are Magical Beast and Int&Wis 10+)

Azerothian Ogre mage doesn't look particulry suiteable ... but the Forestmaster Template with its Druid Casting=HD looks quite nice indeed. Some minor stat boosts, too (though it does weaken any already existing damage reduction by replacing it, which ... isn't that much of an issue itself, though it does make it slightly vulnerable to some tactics involving lots and lots of weak stuff at once from outside of the range Word of Chaos and other instant-kill/quasi-instant kill spells).


Actually... they can:

You will be surprised, but Freedom of Movement, actually, doesn't help against the Web: it explicitly says "magic that usually impedes movement, such as ... "web"; most of spider webs aren't magical
Also, FoM allow to escape grapples and pins, but Web doesn't do neither of it
Finally, it allow to freely act underwater
Nothing in the spell's RAW actually helps to deal with "ordinary" (even if oversized) spider's Web

Guess that makes it even better. Do the boosts provided by both Paragon Creature & Monster of Legend towards special attacks and such add to the DC of the Escape Artist Check & Strength DC Check to escape/break free? If so then that's going to eat up quite a lot of standard actions because I don't think people particulary buff or boost those skill checks in particular (well, expect some melee-types) as the DC, so most are either forced to try destroying the web section (not that difficult, though) or to wait until they might roll 20 to - maybe - free themselves ... if they have any hope to escape/break free in the first place.


Minor nitpick: some of listed LAs are incorrect -
Monster Of Legend is LA: +7,
Paragon Creature - LA: +11,
Warbeast - LA: —.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out.