PDA

View Full Version : More sneak attack the better!!



Jimbob
2007-07-10, 10:59 AM
for my next character I was looking into being a rogue, but I want to maxamise the amount of sneak attack I can do. So I was looking into the invisable blade, extra bits plus sneak attack. Then I was looking in my looks and there are feats like hamstring but are they really worth it? I cant seem to find any feats that grant you extra sneak attack or worth taking, nor I could find any magic items.

If any one has any ideas on the way I should go about this would be a big help, cheers

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 11:08 AM
The Invisible Blade is a phenomenally poor idea. In the errata, WotC clarified that their best possible feint can only be done once per round. Thus, your Sneak Attack will only apply to the first attack of any full attack.

While Sneak Attack is a nifty bonus to help make Rogues playable, its not particularly a good idea build a PC around the concept. The damage progression is much slower then most other damage progressions (Power Attack, Leap Attack, spells, etc) and whole categories of enemies are immune.

Having said that, I'd suggest a Rogue 3/Swash 17 with the Daring Outlaw feat, Improved Unarmed Strike, GTWF, and Power Attack. Full Sneak Attack with 19/20 BAB and Int to damage.

Or you could go Psychic Rogue 10 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), and get access to the highly potent Mind Cripple ability and a full range of psychic powers.

Also, check out the Complete Champion. It helps out Rogues a lot.

Fixer
2007-07-10, 11:09 AM
In our present game we have a straight rogue who is presently getting very upset about the number of undead creatures we are fighting. He has been reduced to swearing repeatedly at the undead while slinging 1d3 dmg rocks at them (he's a halfling, yes a stereotype).

Rogues should NOT be primarily concerned with combat. Their combat skills are circumstancial, not reliable. Rogues have skills and should be played with an eye towards avoiding combats when possible and hitting from nowhere when unavoidable fights come up.

Concentrate on thinking instead of stand-up fighting. Disarm opponents and take their weapons. Trip them to keep them on the ground. UMD with wands to keep them off guard. Use dirty tricks and non-standard tactics.

BBEG has a nasty sword and full armor? You could let the party meat shield beat on them while you sneak attack, sure. Instead, why not relieve them of their weapon (and catch it in your own hand if you have a free hand and TWF) and then start grabbing loose items they are wearing (headbands, necklaces, etc). Eventually you're going to have them half-naked and unarmed while the party has them beaten down.

Jimbob
2007-07-10, 11:18 AM
For the life of me I can not rememeber what the daring outlaw feat does and in which book as well. But why improved unarmed strike???

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-07-10, 11:21 AM
More sneak attack, eh? Well, the late great The Logic Ninja posted this build. You have to be a gnome, but really, it's worth it.

Edit: Craps, it seems I've lost the link. Never fear, I copied it into word. Give me a minute...

All right, here it is.

I was flipping through Races of the Wild and Races of Stone today, looking something up, when I thought: my, but there are a lot of anti-giant feats in here. And they're really effective
And then I thought: you know, they're based on size category differences, not on the other creature's actual size.
And, really, how hard it is to buy potions of Reduce Person, or get the party mage to memorize/cast a couple for you? And at higher levels, maybe get an item of reduce person x/day?

Here's the basic idea: you're a gnome. You're Small. You reduce yourself to Tiny. That means that Medium creatures are two size categories bigger than you.
You use the Races of the Wild tactical feats and Blade Bravo class features to utterly tear humans, elves, orcs, and the like apart--not to mention what you can do to creatures who are *already* Large or larger.

The ideal race is, of course, the whisper gnome. If you can't get it, a regular gnome will have to do--but whisper gnomes are cool, because unlike most gnomes, I don't want to kill every last one of them and hang their corpses from meat hooks. They're *serious* gnomes. They're stylin'.

32-point-buy:
STR: 8 -> 12, -2 racial: 10 (Edit: whoops)!
DEX: 8 -> 16, +2 racial: 18
CON: 8 -> 12, +2 racial: 14
INT: 8 -> 16
WIS: 8 -> 10
CHA: 8 -> 10, -2 racial: 8
As a whisper gnome, you have a 30-foot land speed. How do these things *not* have no CHA penalty and LA +1? +4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants.

1) Swashbuckler 1. Weapon Finesse! Feat, take Dodge--it'll come in handy later.

2)Monk 1. Carmendine Monk, Combat Expertise (Passive Way variant monk)

3) Monk 2. Improved Trip (Passive Way variant monk), Evasion. Feat: Carmendine Monk. You're all about the INT & DEX.

4) Monk 3. Speed boost (for when you're shrunken), Still Mind.

5) Swashbuckler 2. Wait for it...

6) Swashbuckler 3. Insightful Strike! Yay! Now we don't need to take Swashbuckler anymore. Oh, and a feat--snag Weapon Focus(rapier), you need it for...

7) ...Blade Bravo 1! You get Flourish and Goad. Flourish lets you add your class level to Bluff to feint--meh, you're no Invisible Blade. Goad lets you, as a move action, force a creature to make a Will save (DC 10 + 12 your character levels + CHA); if it fails, when it starts its next turn, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against. A lot of things only have melee attacks. Additionally, Bravo gives you +2 to the DC for 5 ranks of Bluff.

8) Blade Bravo 2, "Mobile Fighting" means that moving 5 feet or more (5' step, anyone?) gets you a +1 dodge bonus.

9) Blade Bravo 3 gives you a bonus feat from an excellent list. Take Mobility, in hopes of snagging Elusive Target eventually--when you run out of anti-Big-Things feats. Speaking of which: for your feat this level, take Titan Fighting, Races of Stone. Titan fighting means that you get your dodge bonus vs. giants (+4!) against your Dodge target, as long as they're at least *one* size category larger! You don't even need to shrink to use this.

10) Blade Bravo 4 - Melee Sneak Attack +1d6. Why not?

11) Blade Bravo 5: this level is a tasty, tasty biscuit: Size Advantage gives you +2 dodge AC per size category vs. any larger foe that attacks you. You're fighting a human. You're under the effects of Reduce person, so you're two size categories smaller. You get +4 Dodge AC with them--AND you get another +4 if you smack them with your Dodge bonus, due to Titan Fighting. Take a 5' step that round, and you're getting +9. (+5 of that vs. any medium foe who attacks you). Vs. a Large creature like an ogre, that'd be +11 Dodge AC.

12) Blade Bravo 6. Another bonus feat, and a regular feat. Bonus feat: Improved Critical OR Improved Disarm OR Two-Weapon Fighting. Let's go with Two-Weapon Fighting. For your regular feat, Elusive Target is tempting, but instead, take Underfoot Combat (races of the wild)--you can now move into or through the square of a critter two or more sizes larger than you (humans, if you're shrunk!). If you move into the thing's square (with a 5' step, say... and then use Goad as a move action to make sure it attacks you next round), you get a +4 unnamed bonus to AC from "soft cover", vs. ALL attacks. Remember that +9? It's now +13 AC vs. whoever's square you're in, and +9 vs. everyone else

13) Blade Bravo 7--you're Small but Deadly (good of them to finally recognize it, eh?) and therefore get +4 to confirm criticals on anyone larger than you. Hmm, maybe we should have taken Improved Critical instead of TWF last level!

14) Blade Bravo 8. Melee Sneak Attack, that's +2d6 now. Not a big deal yet, but it will come in handy later.

15) Blade Bravo 9. Bonus feat! Improved TWF (alternatively, they could have been Improved Critical and Improved Disarm, or Imp Crit and Combat Reflexes). Regular feat! Confound the Big Folk tactical feat. Three uses, as all tactical feats:
-Knee Striker--move into the square of a foe 2+ sizes larger. Next round, they're considered flatfooted (remember that sneak attack? Maybe a "Deadly Precision weapon would be a good investment), *and* you get *another* +4 to confirm criticals (maybe a "Keen" enhancement would be a better one).
-Underfoot Defense:same requirement, move into their square. Every round after that, as long as you remain in their square and fight defensively... or activate Combat Expertise for -1 (that's it!)... other creatures attacking you have a 50% chance to strike the creature whose square you're in. Of course, your huge AC bonuses make this kind of moot--but still.
-Unsteady Footing: again, move into their square. You're gonna be doing this a lot. Next round, you can use a standard action to make a special, special trip attack: make a touch attack. You succeed! Make a strength or dex check (your choice--GEE, guess which!) to trip them. Improved Trip helps with this, as it's a trip attack, it's just a better kind of trip attack. They make an opposed check (STR or DEX)... but don't get to add their size modifier. Nifty! You've got Improved Trip, so you get to stab them for free when they go down. With sneak attack--they're flatfooted thanks to the Knee Striker part of this feat!

16) Blade Bravo 10. Boy, we just keep getting better, don't we. This nets you "Lethal Riposte"--once/round, when someone attacks you and misses you, you get to stab them. Oh, and they count as flatfooted, so you get to stab them in their oversized (from your perspective) kidney, spleen, mother-in-law, whichever.

This is where the Other Killer Gnome diverges into two potential paths. One wants more sneak attack damage, the other wants even more feats. Let's call sneak-attacker "Stabbity Killer Gnome" and the featmonger "Smartity Killer Gnome".

STABBITY KILLER GNOME:

17) Rogue 1. It *is* your favorite class. +1d6 sneak!

18) Rogue 2. No sneak, but you get a feat at this level. Sounds like a good time to pick up Elusive Target, but you're already about as Elusive as it's possible to *be*, with your ginormous gnomish... dodge bonuses. So pick up Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, because that lets you stab people in their very-much-necessary but oh-so-magnetic vital organs, Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.

19) Rogue 3. +1d6 sneak! You have +4d6 now, and +INT to damage. A respectable addition, with your many attacks/round on downed bigger foes, even if you aren't an Uber-Chargerer or a Frenzied Power Attack Breaker.

20) Rogue 4. You don't want to be flatfooted. Uncanny Dodge makes you not be flatfooted. Being flatfooted is the thing that will kill this gnome, and this gnome, ma'am, ain't one as takes kindly ta bein' killed, lemme tell ya.

End result: Monk (passive way) 3/Swashbuckler3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue 4.


Now, the SMARTITY KILLER GNOME:

17) Fighter 1. Feat! Elusive Target is ours!
18) Fighter 2. Feat! Feat! Claim Greater Two-Weapon Fighting in the name of King Ferdinand of Spain. You have plenty of options left: expand your repetoire by taking Silencing Strike (you ARE a whisper gnome), and once/day, stab a mage and make them not spellcast.
19) Fighter 3, Bleh.
20) Fighter 4--I'd say "Take Giantbane", but, funnily enough, Giantbane sucks. So take Improved Disarm. Or Improved Critical, if you didn't get Keen.
Better yet, be both Smart & Stabby (that sounds like a great gnomish band) by taking Rogue 1 here, for that extra d6 sneak attack.

Whether you want to be Smartity or Stabbity is up to you. Stabbity is more offensive; Smartity gives you a few extra options.

I'm *sure* there's other things to do with those four levels. How about Duelist? Four more points of INT to AC, initiative bonus.
If you're evil, try Assassin 3/Rogue 1, for +3d6 Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge and Death Attack (int synergy).
If you pick up Spring Attack with a level of Fighter, then three levels of Gnome Giant-Slayer are thematic and useful: at 2nd, another +4 dodge AC vs. giants or +2 vs. any other creature two size categories; at 3rd, a bonus on checks to escape grapples.


So this build gets +18 or 19 BAB, RIDICULOUS dodge bonuses against just about everything bigger than it (that's what Reduce Person is for!), the ability to totally slaughter big things but make them fight it (Goad), and it's a pretty decent combatant against, say, a small-sized creature like a halfling, too.
Additionally, this build requires no questionable rules interpretations (it'll work just fine without the Passive Way monk variant--in fact, you can start as a rogue/swashbuckler or fighter/swash and bypass monk altogether, but that INT to AC is nice), it uses no dirty tricks, it's playable from 1-20 (5th is a low point, but not very low), and what it needs to do its thing most efficiently (size reduction) is very cheap and plentiful, from spellcaster buddies, potions, and so on.


That version was short on damage output, which means sneak attack with all the flatfootedness, and Monk wasn't giving much. So:

Whisper Gnome:
1) Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
2) Rogue 1, +1d6 sneak
3) Swashbuckler 2, Dodge
4) Swashbuckler 3, Insightful Strike
5) Rogue 2, Evasion
6) Rogue 3, +2d6 sneak, Weapon Focus: Rapier
7) Rogue 4, Uncanny Dodge
8) Blade Bravo 1, Flourish, Goad
9) Blade Bravo 2, Mobile Fighting, Titan Fighting
10) Blade Bravo 3, Mobility
11) Blade Bravo 4, +1d6 (melee) sneak - 3d6 total
12) Blade Bravo 5, Size Advantage, Underfoot Combat
13) Blade Bravo 6, Two-Weapon Fighting
14) Blade Bravo 7, Small but Deadly
15) Blade Bravo 8, +2d6 (melee) sneak - 4d6 total, Confound the Big Folk
16) Blade Bravo 9, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
17) Blade Bravo 10, Lethal Riposte
18) Rogue 5, +5d6 sneak total, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Rogue 6
20) Rogue 8, +6d6 sneak total.

You get +6d6 sneak attack damage in addition to regular weapon+int, 7 attacks/round which are almost guaranteed to hit... add the Deadly Precision enhancement to each weapon (effective +1) to make that +8d6.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-10, 11:21 AM
UMD is your best friend. There are a multitude of ways to flat-foot, blind, or deny dex to opponents available as a number of low-level spells. Armor Lock, for instance, is Sor/Wiz 1 (a steal at 750gp for a wand of 50 charges) and denies the dex bonus of anyone wearing armor.

Hyfigh
2007-07-10, 11:24 AM
A good route would be a rogue/wizard (or sorc)/arcane trickster (or other casting/sneak attack advancing class). If you can be an elf and take the Otherworldly feat you open up outsider polymorph forms. At level 12, if you have access to it, the Kelvasu (Spelling?) grants +8d6 sneak attack as a special attack Ex ability. Stack that on to your already probably 8d6 sneak attack and you can really stick things in the ribs.

Edit: If you can, Penetrating Strike (alternate class ability from Dungeonscape, rogue looses trapsense to be able to sneak attack immune things at 1/2 sneak attack) is awesome. Also taking the Martial Stance feat from ToB to take on the Island of Blades feat can really help your flanking chances.

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-07-10, 11:24 AM
UMD is your best friend. There are a multitude of ways to flat-foot, blind, or deny dex to opponents available as a number of low-level spells. Armor Lock, for instance, is Sor/Wiz 1 (a steal at 750gp for a wand of 50 charges) and denies the dex bonus of anyone wearing armor.

Oh really? What book would that be?

It would seem that this spell plus TLN build I posted above would make a monster of a gnome.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-10, 11:28 AM
Improved Unarmed Strike gives you a back-up, if you get Disarmed(and let's face it, a Rogue built around Disarming will do a piss poor job of it unless he can get Martial Weapon Proficiency, since practically all Rogue weapons are one-handed or smaller{ie, built around concealability, ease of use in a grapple, etc.})

If you're building a Rogue and you can't be certain of Sneak Attack kicking in every fight, build yourself around being the "stumbling block". In other words, you're the shrimpy kid the big bully uses to trip up people he pushes around(he pushes them, they stumble backwards around you, and fall.). To that end, things like Thief Acrobat let you dance rings around your enemies, leaving them confused as to where/what you're doing. Shadowdancer would be nice, except that the Shadow faces difficulties with the same enemies that a Rogue would(anything immune to Sneak Attack is probably immune to Ability Damage as well).

All that being said, if you're not looking to drop opponents in a single full-attack, I would definitely pick Feats like Hamstring/Staggering Strike/Crippling Strike(9th level Rogue Special ability) to assist the party tank(Fade out, appear long enough to stab him behind his knee, then fade back into the shadows). He will appreciate having an opponent who cannot resist his Disarms as easily(lost Strength, or lose his next turn, etc.). Alternatively, if he's built around Shock Trooper, he might enjoy the fact that his opponent won't catch up to him as easily.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-10, 11:30 AM
Oh really? What book would that be?

It would seem that this spell plus TLN build I posted above would make a monster of a gnome.

Comp. Scoundrel.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-10, 11:46 AM
If you want more opportunities for sneak attack you should consider the following:
Higher initiative means you attack while enemies are flat-footed. Improved Initiative and Quick Reconnoiter help here, as do DEX boosters.
Carrry a ranged weapon ready to fire during surprise rounds. Closing for melee wastes valuable opportunities to attack while the enemy is flat-footed.
Since you're going to be wielding a ranged weapon, give it the warning ability (Magic Item Compendium) for a +5 initiative boost.
Greater Invisibility. Crank up your Use Magic Device skill and get a wand of this very useful spell.
Since enemies will often have counters to invisibility, consider a sneakier alternative: Ebon Eyes (on yourself) plus Deeper Darkness, which you can pre-cast on the tip of a dagger. Just draw it from its sheath to provide 100% concealment which you won't suffer from.
The Telling Blow feat (PH2) lets you sneak attack when you score a critical hit. A keen rapier has a good threat range.
Weapon augment crystals (Magic Item Compendium) let you sneak attack undead and constructs.
The Penetrating Strike alternate class feature (Dungeonscape) lets you swap trap sense for 1/2 sneak attack damage against those normally immune.
Make use of your Rogue special abilities and the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel). Here are just some of Savvy Rogue's benefits:
Makes Crippling Strike apply to all targets, even those immune to sneak attack.
Opportunist is now useable as many times as you have AoOs (but still 1/enemy).
You take 12 instead of 10 with Skill Mastery.
If you've got the Opportunist class feature you want Combat Reflexes and a way to get unanticipated AoOs. A Hat of Disguise will let you make a longspear look like a regular spear, giving an unexpected AoO against enemies at 10'.
Enemies are flat-footed while balancing if they don't have at least 5 ranks in Balance. You can buy a wand with Widen Spell pre-applied to Grease, letting you cover a 20' x 20' square.
Now that you've got lots of opportunities for sneak attack, you want more sneak attack damage. For that there's one solid choice: the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin). Just be prepared to run screaming like a sissy from some fights, because Craven makes you more vulnerable to fear.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 12:00 PM
Deeer darkness isn't actually dark, just 20% concealment. Try Blacklight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/blacklight.htm) for real darkness.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 12:57 PM
For the life of me I can not rememeber what the daring outlaw feat does and in which book as well. But why improved unarmed strike???

Daring Outlaw is in Complete Scoundrel. It allows your Rogue and Swash levels to stack for Sneak Attack, thus the Rogue 3/Swash 17 with full Sneak Attack and 19/20 BAB.

Unarmed Strikes are the only weapon that counts for Weapon Finesse/Insightful Strike AND its usable with Power Attack/Leap Attack (and hopefully eventually Pounce through one of the numerous methods of getting it), AND they count as light weapons in order to minimize your Two Weapon Fighting penalties. Thus, using Unarmed Strikes (and eventually magical gauntlets, which count as unarmed strikes but allow you to add magical properties to your unarmed attacks) is the only way for a Rogue/Swash to get all of his benefits in one attack combo.

Kolvin
2007-07-10, 01:59 PM
If you're making a Rogue and you wish to dish out as much Sneak Attack damage as possible I suggest that you invest in getting as many attacks per round as possible.

My current Rogue is pretty much built along those lines. Two Weapon Fighting and a maxed out Tumble along with Weapon Finesse (carry only finesse weapons). Your weapon's damage dice is rather inconsequential along with your ability to crit since it's not your big damage supplier. The more attacks you dish out when flanking the more Sneak Attack damage you'll produce. Trust me the party is always happy when I supply a nice serving of 15 dice of Sneak Attack damage to a single target.

Your mission is to get in. Stay a couple of rounds and come out of the fight. Don't stand and fight for a long period otherwise you'll die.

You won't get to inflict Sneak Attacks as much as you level up because of the monsters (Undead, Elementals, and Constructs, and Barbarians) so you have to think in consequence. My Rogue is 10th lvl and she's getting her rapier enchanted to inflict Sneak Attack damage to Undead with Ghost Touch and some other property for the Magic Item Compendium.

Uncanny Dodge is annoying. A fair number of classes have this ability and it pretty much cancels out your own so just avoid fighting high level characters that wear light armor, they probably won't be affected. It's okay since your specialty is getting inside enemy lines and killing spellcasters.

Right now in my eternal quest to get more attacks I'm thinking Boot of Haste and Improved Two Weapon Fighting...if I had both that would push my potential Sneak Attack dice to 25 dice without even counting the weapon's damage dice.

And you'll hit more than the Fighter since you're not dumping your Base Attack into Power Attack to get the big damage.

Hyfigh
2007-07-10, 03:15 PM
*Snip*... (and hopefully eventually Pounce through one of the numerous methods of getting it)... *Snip*

How do Unarmed Strikes not count for a pounce? All the SRD says for pounce is that if a creature with the pounce ability makes a charge it can full attack at the end of the charge. It doesn't even exclude ranged weapons, it only says they can make a full attack... Or am I missing something?

Edit: Scratch that. Charging does specify melee attacks, but still... A melee attack is not limited to an attack with a weapon.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 03:19 PM
No, they do. You wanna provoke that many AOO's?

It's because you can get dex to hit, int to damage, and power attack. That's the only thing that can do that. Then you can pounce, for more craziness with leap attack/shock trooper.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 04:33 PM
Using Unarmed Strikes has nothing to do with Pounce. I was just attempting to make the point that Unarmed Strikes can be used with Power Attack and Leap Attack, and that in my opinion, every melee build over ECL 5 should have Pounce (or huge reach, or both). Otherwise, you're just giving up a huge number of potential attacks each round.

Also, there are a ton of different ways to get Pounce (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146). That post is 3 years old, so there are probably 10-20 additional ways not listed there, like Complete Champion Barbarian and Spell Compendium's Lion Pounce spell. So its not even particularly hard for a mid to high level build to get access to it for a modest investment. For example, this PC could be a Lion Tribe Warrior (1 feat), or it could invest in 1 level of Barbarian, or it could be a Catfolk (+1 LA and 1 feat), or it could just use various magic items like a Wand of Polymorph or Black Magic Oil.

Hyfigh
2007-07-10, 05:08 PM
OK, sorry. I misunderstood your point.

On that note, I am a huge advocate of the level dip into barbarian. There is just no reason at all to not have pounce. It's just so absolutely easy to get now and so incredibly useful.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-10, 07:10 PM
More sneak attack, eh? Well, the late great The Logic Ninja posted this build. You have to be a gnome, but really, it's worth it.

Edit: Craps, it seems I've lost the link. Never fear, I copied it into word. Give me a minute...

All right, here it is.

I was flipping through Races of the Wild and Races of Stone today, looking something up, when I thought: my, but there are a lot of anti-giant feats in here. And they're really effective
And then I thought: you know, they're based on size category differences, not on the other creature's actual size.
And, really, how hard it is to buy potions of Reduce Person, or get the party mage to memorize/cast a couple for you? And at higher levels, maybe get an item of reduce person x/day?

Here's the basic idea: you're a gnome. You're Small. You reduce yourself to Tiny. That means that Medium creatures are two size categories bigger than you.
You use the Races of the Wild tactical feats and Blade Bravo class features to utterly tear humans, elves, orcs, and the like apart--not to mention what you can do to creatures who are *already* Large or larger.

The ideal race is, of course, the whisper gnome. If you can't get it, a regular gnome will have to do--but whisper gnomes are cool, because unlike most gnomes, I don't want to kill every last one of them and hang their corpses from meat hooks. They're *serious* gnomes. They're stylin'.

32-point-buy:
STR: 8 -> 12, -2 racial: 10 (Edit: whoops)!
DEX: 8 -> 16, +2 racial: 18
CON: 8 -> 12, +2 racial: 14
INT: 8 -> 16
WIS: 8 -> 10
CHA: 8 -> 10, -2 racial: 8
As a whisper gnome, you have a 30-foot land speed. How do these things *not* have no CHA penalty and LA +1? +4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants.

1) Swashbuckler 1. Weapon Finesse! Feat, take Dodge--it'll come in handy later.

2)Monk 1. Carmendine Monk, Combat Expertise (Passive Way variant monk)

3) Monk 2. Improved Trip (Passive Way variant monk), Evasion. Feat: Carmendine Monk. You're all about the INT & DEX.

4) Monk 3. Speed boost (for when you're shrunken), Still Mind.

5) Swashbuckler 2. Wait for it...

6) Swashbuckler 3. Insightful Strike! Yay! Now we don't need to take Swashbuckler anymore. Oh, and a feat--snag Weapon Focus(rapier), you need it for...

7) ...Blade Bravo 1! You get Flourish and Goad. Flourish lets you add your class level to Bluff to feint--meh, you're no Invisible Blade. Goad lets you, as a move action, force a creature to make a Will save (DC 10 + 12 your character levels + CHA); if it fails, when it starts its next turn, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against. A lot of things only have melee attacks. Additionally, Bravo gives you +2 to the DC for 5 ranks of Bluff.

8) Blade Bravo 2, "Mobile Fighting" means that moving 5 feet or more (5' step, anyone?) gets you a +1 dodge bonus.

9) Blade Bravo 3 gives you a bonus feat from an excellent list. Take Mobility, in hopes of snagging Elusive Target eventually--when you run out of anti-Big-Things feats. Speaking of which: for your feat this level, take Titan Fighting, Races of Stone. Titan fighting means that you get your dodge bonus vs. giants (+4!) against your Dodge target, as long as they're at least *one* size category larger! You don't even need to shrink to use this.

10) Blade Bravo 4 - Melee Sneak Attack +1d6. Why not?

11) Blade Bravo 5: this level is a tasty, tasty biscuit: Size Advantage gives you +2 dodge AC per size category vs. any larger foe that attacks you. You're fighting a human. You're under the effects of Reduce person, so you're two size categories smaller. You get +4 Dodge AC with them--AND you get another +4 if you smack them with your Dodge bonus, due to Titan Fighting. Take a 5' step that round, and you're getting +9. (+5 of that vs. any medium foe who attacks you). Vs. a Large creature like an ogre, that'd be +11 Dodge AC.

12) Blade Bravo 6. Another bonus feat, and a regular feat. Bonus feat: Improved Critical OR Improved Disarm OR Two-Weapon Fighting. Let's go with Two-Weapon Fighting. For your regular feat, Elusive Target is tempting, but instead, take Underfoot Combat (races of the wild)--you can now move into or through the square of a critter two or more sizes larger than you (humans, if you're shrunk!). If you move into the thing's square (with a 5' step, say... and then use Goad as a move action to make sure it attacks you next round), you get a +4 unnamed bonus to AC from "soft cover", vs. ALL attacks. Remember that +9? It's now +13 AC vs. whoever's square you're in, and +9 vs. everyone else

13) Blade Bravo 7--you're Small but Deadly (good of them to finally recognize it, eh?) and therefore get +4 to confirm criticals on anyone larger than you. Hmm, maybe we should have taken Improved Critical instead of TWF last level!

14) Blade Bravo 8. Melee Sneak Attack, that's +2d6 now. Not a big deal yet, but it will come in handy later.

15) Blade Bravo 9. Bonus feat! Improved TWF (alternatively, they could have been Improved Critical and Improved Disarm, or Imp Crit and Combat Reflexes). Regular feat! Confound the Big Folk tactical feat. Three uses, as all tactical feats:
-Knee Striker--move into the square of a foe 2+ sizes larger. Next round, they're considered flatfooted (remember that sneak attack? Maybe a "Deadly Precision weapon would be a good investment), *and* you get *another* +4 to confirm criticals (maybe a "Keen" enhancement would be a better one).
-Underfoot Defense:same requirement, move into their square. Every round after that, as long as you remain in their square and fight defensively... or activate Combat Expertise for -1 (that's it!)... other creatures attacking you have a 50% chance to strike the creature whose square you're in. Of course, your huge AC bonuses make this kind of moot--but still.
-Unsteady Footing: again, move into their square. You're gonna be doing this a lot. Next round, you can use a standard action to make a special, special trip attack: make a touch attack. You succeed! Make a strength or dex check (your choice--GEE, guess which!) to trip them. Improved Trip helps with this, as it's a trip attack, it's just a better kind of trip attack. They make an opposed check (STR or DEX)... but don't get to add their size modifier. Nifty! You've got Improved Trip, so you get to stab them for free when they go down. With sneak attack--they're flatfooted thanks to the Knee Striker part of this feat!

16) Blade Bravo 10. Boy, we just keep getting better, don't we. This nets you "Lethal Riposte"--once/round, when someone attacks you and misses you, you get to stab them. Oh, and they count as flatfooted, so you get to stab them in their oversized (from your perspective) kidney, spleen, mother-in-law, whichever.

This is where the Other Killer Gnome diverges into two potential paths. One wants more sneak attack damage, the other wants even more feats. Let's call sneak-attacker "Stabbity Killer Gnome" and the featmonger "Smartity Killer Gnome".

STABBITY KILLER GNOME:

17) Rogue 1. It *is* your favorite class. +1d6 sneak!

18) Rogue 2. No sneak, but you get a feat at this level. Sounds like a good time to pick up Elusive Target, but you're already about as Elusive as it's possible to *be*, with your ginormous gnomish... dodge bonuses. So pick up Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, because that lets you stab people in their very-much-necessary but oh-so-magnetic vital organs, Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.

19) Rogue 3. +1d6 sneak! You have +4d6 now, and +INT to damage. A respectable addition, with your many attacks/round on downed bigger foes, even if you aren't an Uber-Chargerer or a Frenzied Power Attack Breaker.

20) Rogue 4. You don't want to be flatfooted. Uncanny Dodge makes you not be flatfooted. Being flatfooted is the thing that will kill this gnome, and this gnome, ma'am, ain't one as takes kindly ta bein' killed, lemme tell ya.

End result: Monk (passive way) 3/Swashbuckler3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue 4.


Now, the SMARTITY KILLER GNOME:

17) Fighter 1. Feat! Elusive Target is ours!
18) Fighter 2. Feat! Feat! Claim Greater Two-Weapon Fighting in the name of King Ferdinand of Spain. You have plenty of options left: expand your repetoire by taking Silencing Strike (you ARE a whisper gnome), and once/day, stab a mage and make them not spellcast.
19) Fighter 3, Bleh.
20) Fighter 4--I'd say "Take Giantbane", but, funnily enough, Giantbane sucks. So take Improved Disarm. Or Improved Critical, if you didn't get Keen.
Better yet, be both Smart & Stabby (that sounds like a great gnomish band) by taking Rogue 1 here, for that extra d6 sneak attack.

Whether you want to be Smartity or Stabbity is up to you. Stabbity is more offensive; Smartity gives you a few extra options.

I'm *sure* there's other things to do with those four levels. How about Duelist? Four more points of INT to AC, initiative bonus.
If you're evil, try Assassin 3/Rogue 1, for +3d6 Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge and Death Attack (int synergy).
If you pick up Spring Attack with a level of Fighter, then three levels of Gnome Giant-Slayer are thematic and useful: at 2nd, another +4 dodge AC vs. giants or +2 vs. any other creature two size categories; at 3rd, a bonus on checks to escape grapples.


So this build gets +18 or 19 BAB, RIDICULOUS dodge bonuses against just about everything bigger than it (that's what Reduce Person is for!), the ability to totally slaughter big things but make them fight it (Goad), and it's a pretty decent combatant against, say, a small-sized creature like a halfling, too.
Additionally, this build requires no questionable rules interpretations (it'll work just fine without the Passive Way monk variant--in fact, you can start as a rogue/swashbuckler or fighter/swash and bypass monk altogether, but that INT to AC is nice), it uses no dirty tricks, it's playable from 1-20 (5th is a low point, but not very low), and what it needs to do its thing most efficiently (size reduction) is very cheap and plentiful, from spellcaster buddies, potions, and so on.


That version was short on damage output, which means sneak attack with all the flatfootedness, and Monk wasn't giving much. So:

Whisper Gnome:
1) Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
2) Rogue 1, +1d6 sneak
3) Swashbuckler 2, Dodge
4) Swashbuckler 3, Insightful Strike
5) Rogue 2, Evasion
6) Rogue 3, +2d6 sneak, Weapon Focus: Rapier
7) Rogue 4, Uncanny Dodge
8) Blade Bravo 1, Flourish, Goad
9) Blade Bravo 2, Mobile Fighting, Titan Fighting
10) Blade Bravo 3, Mobility
11) Blade Bravo 4, +1d6 (melee) sneak - 3d6 total
12) Blade Bravo 5, Size Advantage, Underfoot Combat
13) Blade Bravo 6, Two-Weapon Fighting
14) Blade Bravo 7, Small but Deadly
15) Blade Bravo 8, +2d6 (melee) sneak - 4d6 total, Confound the Big Folk
16) Blade Bravo 9, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
17) Blade Bravo 10, Lethal Riposte
18) Rogue 5, +5d6 sneak total, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Rogue 6
20) Rogue 8, +6d6 sneak total.

You get +6d6 sneak attack damage in addition to regular weapon+int, 7 attacks/round which are almost guaranteed to hit... add the Deadly Precision enhancement to each weapon (effective +1) to make that +8d6.



But...Deadly Precision is effective +2...

Ramza00
2007-07-10, 07:42 PM
1 lvl dip into Barbarian for Pounce.

Take the feat neraph charge from the planar handbook. Denies your opponent his dex bonus on a charge, thus he is sneak attackable. Combine with pounce and twf=ouch.

A binder is a pretty good sneak attacker with the vestige that does sneak attack, combine with the one that does sudden strike, and the one that grants pounce.

Or (we don't know what level you want). You can do a binder Anima Mage combine with 2 lvls of Unseen Seer to grab Hunter's Eye. Use Anima Mage to cast a persistent Hunter's Eye (as well as persistent Wraithstrike and one more persistent spell), use Anima Mage to bind those two vestiges, plus a few dice of sneak attack from other sources.

There are multiple options you can do.

Bauglir
2007-07-10, 10:48 PM
Complete Adventurer Deadly Precision is +2 for +2d6 Sneak Attack, Magic Item Compendium is +1 for +1d6 Sneak Attack. Something seems off in the build...

de-trick
2007-07-10, 11:30 PM
i like ninja more than roguee to get extra damagebecause with ghost step you could sudden strike every round that you had a pool of ki left.

Tack122
2007-07-10, 11:47 PM
Complete Adventurer Deadly Precision is +2 for +2d6 Sneak Attack, Magic Item Compendium is +1 for +1d6 Sneak Attack. Something seems off in the build...

Probably be better off saying that deadly precision is +1 and the other doesn't exist because you would be better off buying some other elemental enchantments for your weapon.

Ramza00
2007-07-10, 11:59 PM
The assassination weapon property in this web enhancement adds 1d6 sneak attack with some other benefits for +1

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a

Curmudgeon
2007-07-11, 01:30 PM
Probably be better off saying that deadly precision is +1 and the other doesn't exist because you would be better off buying some other elemental enchantments for your weapon. That's negatory, good buddy. Most of a Rogue's damage is going to come from sneak attack. The first rule of sneak attack is:


If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.

You're much better off buying numerical enhancements until your weapon is at +5. Increasing your chances to hit means increasing your chances to sneak attack.

Person_Man
2007-07-16, 09:25 AM
You're much better off buying numerical enhancements until your weapon is at +5. Increasing your chances to hit means increasing your chances to sneak attack.

I disagree. Instead of a +4 Rapier, you're better off buying a +1 Flaming Wounding Whatever Rapier, and then have a friendly party member cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. That will generally increase the enhancement (scaled to the caster's level), while maintaining all the other cool bonuses. And it pretty much lasts all day. There's really no reason to pay for enhancement bonuses beyond the required +1.



i like ninja more than roguee to get extra damagebecause with ghost step you could sudden strike every round that you had a pool of ki left.

Gee, I guess I'm just in a disagreeable mood here. Ninja is generally considered one of the weakest classes in the game. Sudden Strike is harder to qualify for then Sneak Attack. The Ki abilities (Invisibility for 1 round, Etheralness for 1 round) can only be used a limited number of times per day, and are easily surpassed by any number of affordable magical effects/items (Greater Invisibility, Ring of Blinking). And they lack the Rogue's useful special abilities (Opportunist, Defensive Roll).

Kurobara
2007-07-16, 12:22 PM
One more suggestion along the lines of getting more opportunities for SA: Either a dip into Swordsage or the Martial Study feat to pick up Distracting Ember. Free flank for a turn.

Actually, come to think of it, if you do do it via a dip and also take at least one Shadow Hand maneuver, you can grab the Martial Stance feat later for Assassin's Stance and get +2d6 SA. (Well, you could also grab the Shadow Hand maneuver with another Martial Study feat, but then you're taking three feats. Probably easier to do the dip and the feat.)