Enhanced Magic planes and crafting

[Jowgen]

Following a disagreement in the RAW Q&A thread, this question is now posed for general discussion.

If someone crafts a spell-trigger/completion item while on a plane that has the Enhanced Magic trait corresponding to the spell to be placed in item, how is item creation affected?

The SRD has the following to say on the topic:


Particular spells and spell-like abilities are easier to use or more powerful in effect on planes with this trait than they are on the Material Plane. [...]

If a spell is enhanced, certain metamagic feats can be applied to it without changing the spell slot required or the casting time. Spellcasters on the plane are considered to have that feat or feats for the purpose of applying them to that spell. Spellcasters native to the plane must gain the feat or feats normally if they want to use them on other planes as well.
Limited Magic

The DMG adds the following example:


For example, spells with the fire descriptor are maximized and enlarged on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Wizards on this plane can prepare maximized, enlarged versions of their fire spells even if they don’t have the Maximize Spell and Enlarge Spell feats, and they use the same spell slots they would to cast these spells normally (not maximized or enlarged) on the Material Plane. Sorcerers on this plane can cast maximized, enlarged fire spells without using higher-level slots, and it takes them no extra time to do so.

The relevant section on creating magic items is the following:


Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. For example, a caster could heighten a spell’s level to increase its effectiveness, or quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level.

Lastly, the rules for how the spells are expended seem to only be found in the individual crafting feats, such as Craft Magic Arms and Armor


If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spellsThe act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

The crux of the question seems to be whether the Enhanced Magic trait only comes into effect at the time of casting (i.e. affects active magic), or is continuously active on the spells available to the caster (i.e. affects the caster). As in, does the caster have an e.g. Maximized Fireball that he can expend (without casting)

Now under my reading, since Wizards explicitly can prepare Metamagiced spells via the Enhanced Magic Trait (strangely, there is no clause about those prepared spells loosing their metamagic in case of changing planes), they should be able to apply the metamagiced version for a spell-trigger/completion item. With Spontaneous casters, I am not so certain where the RAW lies.

One head-scratcher is how the item cost would be affected. The spell does not take up a higher slot, so by the calculation formula, it wouldn't be pricier; but that seems bad.

[Name1]

...It seems kinda obvious to me, but that might be because I'm not putting enough thought into it:
A prepared caster uses a prepared spell to create an item. The plane applies it's effects to the prepared spell. Thus an item created there wouldn't be pricier than an item created using the unmodified spell. An item of Enlarged Maximized Fireball and an item of Fireball thus cost the same.

A spontaneous caster, on the other hand, uses a known spell. Since the plane doesn't apply it's effects to known spells, but rather to the cast spell, the items don't get any enhanced effect. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure a sorcerer CAN create a item of [Metamagic] Fireball, since a spontaneous caster doesn't know any metamagicked spells.

[Hecuba]

I had made a seperate thread. Consolidating and updating the link in the RAW thread.


Continued from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497153-Simple-RAW-Thread-for-3-5-32-More-Seasons-than-the-Simpsons&p=21267335#post21267335


Re: A 176

I am not sure I follow. According to SRD, "Spellcasters on the plane are considered to have that feat or feats for the purpose of applying them to that spell. Spellcasters native to the plane must gain the feat or feats normally if they want to use them on other planes as well."

What's the source of the "at time of casting" limitation?

It's a couple paragraphs higher. "[..] more powerful in effect on planes with this trait [...]."

If the modifier from the plane is a modifier on effects occurring on the plane, then it only will come into play when if the spell effect happens on the plane. This isn't strictly limited to casting - it would also cover successful activation of magic items - but it would not cover the creation of magic items (since spell effects do not occur when spell slots are expended in that fashion).

That said, while "in effect" was enough for me to eat crow when vetting Troacctid's point, it does look at lot more like a turn of phrase than I usually like my reserved terms to look.

So to generalize the matter a bit, the underlying RAW logic is:

If the reduced cost metamagic is availble when the spells are expended during item creation, the metamagic can be included in the item.
If the cheap metamagic is not available for spells expended in that manner (in this case, because it would only come into play when spell effects are resolved while onthe plane), then it can not.
The scope of when the planar effect takes place seems to depend on how you read the "in effect" above: on that matter, you will have to ask your DM.



See also the specific text of the plane's Enhanced Magic trait, e.g. for the Plane of Shadow:

Unfortunately, that language is not universal across the different planes - Fire, for example, does not include the word "cast." It makes a good case for RAI adjudication, but not for RAW adjudication.

That said, it's also worth noting that the Plane of Shadow only calls out Spells and not SLAs - it very well could be frame as an intentionally more narrow trait of that plane.


Generally, a plane's magic trait (whether normal, wild, enhanced, impeded, or limited) only affects how magic works on that plane, so it has no bearing on the same magic used on other planes.

Which doesn't preclude crafting, since expending slots in lieu of casting as part of crafting is part of how magic works. Including the metamagic in an item only requires that the spell be expended with the metamagic applied and that the caster have the feat. If it were not limited in scope to effects taking place on the plane, it would seem to qualify: the characters are explicitly treated as though they have the feats, but without having to pay the increased cost.

It only doesn't work if the planar effect is limited in some way that excludes spells expended during crafting (i.e. a distinction it only applying to spells as they are cast or when the come into effect).

[Jowgen]

It's a couple paragraphs higher. "[..] more powerful in effect on planes with this trait [...]."
[...]
That said, while "in effect" was enough for me to eat crow when vetting Troacctid's point, it does look at lot more like a turn of phrase than I usually like my reserved terms to look.
[...]

The scope of when the planar effect takes place seems to depend on how you read the "in effect" above: on that matter, you will have to ask your DM.



Thank you for linking the RAW thread over :smallsmile:

On thing I noticed going through is that the whole phrase reads "are easier to use or more powerful in effect". The easier to use bit provides an alternative to "more powerful in effect", and there is no RAW upon which to distinguish which Metamagic feats should count as which. Arguably, the fact that they don't increase spell level categorically means that they become easier to use (i.e. a caster doesn't have to eat the higher slot if he wants to cast a Widened Fireball), but there is not much to go on, really.

I feel like the lack of clarity/consistency in the wording of that phrase makes it less worthy of being considered RAW.

[Hecuba]

Thank you for linking the RAW thread over :smallsmile:

On thing I noticed going through is that the whole phrase reads "are easier to use or more powerful in effect". The easier to use bit provides an alternative to "more powerful in effect", and there is no RAW upon which to distinguish which Metamagic feats should count as which. Arguably, the fact that they don't increase spell level categorically means that they become easier to use (i.e. a caster doesn't have to eat the higher slot if he wants to cast a Widened Fireball), but there is not much to go on, really.

I feel like the lack of clarity/consistency in the wording of that phrase makes it less worthy of being considered RAW.

It's a decent distinction to try to make, but a RAW ambiguity merely means that you need to consult the DM and not that the more permissive reading gets RAW standing. The fact that a special term was used at all is a big thing in RAW, and at best it makes your desired position shaky.


In actual adjudication, I would side with your reading without much hesitation: expending the spells during crafting has always seemed like casting the spell into the item in a slightly different way. As point of fact, some ancillary sources describe it in exactly that manner. In such a view, the spells you expend during crafting are effectively stored to power the magic item the same way a battery stores a charge. It stands to reason, under such a framework, that additional oomph from the planar trait would be stored as well.

One can also, of course, treat the expenditure of the spell during crafting as a more permanent analog of spell preparation with the aid of external accouterments in the form of the item. In such a framework, it would make no more sense for a wand of fireballs made on the plane of fire to be metamagiced on the Prime than it would for a fireball spell prepared on that plane to get free metamagic on the prime. I personally find that reading less compelling, but it is still sound.

[Jowgen]

Going off that train of thought, another interesting consideration is that for prerequesite spells, "access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed", and in fact, any number of creatures can provide the various prerequesites. It all seems to very much follow the model that the only hard qualifier is that all the pieces be present in some way for the duration of the crafting.

So to stretch the current topic a bit further: what about crafting Metamagic rods?

Personally, I could not in good conscience allow someone to craft a metamagic rod that applies e.g. extend spell to all spells, if their only access to that feat is that they have it for the purpose of applying it to e.g. fire spells.

Also, on a complete tangent, would a planar bubble set to a Flowing Time trait plane speed up magic item creation?

[Hecuba]

Going off that train of thought, another interesting consideration is that for prerequesite spells, "access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed", and in fact, any number of creatures can provide the various prerequesites. It all seems to very much follow the model that the only hard qualifier is that all the pieces be present in some way for the duration of the crafting.

So to stretch the current topic a bit further: what about crafting Metamagic rods?

Personally, I could not in good conscience allow someone to craft a metamagic rod that applies e.g. extend spell to all spells, if their only access to that feat is that they have it for the purpose of applying it to e.g. fire spells.

Also, on a complete tangent, would a planar bubble set to a Flowing Time trait plane speed up magic item creation?

Preface: I don't have time to look these up at the moment, so this is all as memory serves.

Metamagic rods fail to qualify in 2 different ways.
First, the section on metamagic and crafting specifically calls out casters having meta-magic feats. While planar traits indicate that casters are treated as having those feats while on the plane, metamagic rods explicitly indicate that they do not cause the caster to be treated as having the feat.
Second, every metamagic rod of which i am aware is explicitly limited to casting. Thus (while you might stretch the idea of casting expended spells into the crafted object to cover them) they are safely outside RAW - as spells used during crafting are expended in lieu of being cast.

Regarding the Flowing Time trait: the spell description never calls out the time trait, but if it the bubble creates the flowing time trait then yes (assuming that the bubble is active long enough for the relevant crafting session and that the plane it is keyed to is accelerated -- i.e. temporal energy plane -- and not decelerated -- i.e. faerie.). This is, in effect, just a variation on the fast time demiplane (or Planar Shepard shenanigans).

[Emperor Tippy]

No, you can't use Enhanced Magic to craft items with that metamagic feat applied.

Enhanced Magic states that "If a spell is enhanced, certain metamagic feats can be applied to it without changing the spell slot required or the casting time. Spellcasters on the plane are considered to have that feat or feats for the purpose of applying them to that spell."

All Enhanced Magic does is allow a metamagic feat to be applied to a spell without a change to the spells casting time or spell slot and grant the spellcaster the feat in question for the purpose of applying them to that spell. It doesn't just grant the feat in a general case, but only for applying them to a spell.

Crafting Magic items says "Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

To craft a metamagic enhanced item doesn't require that you have the appropriate metamagic enhanced spell available but that you have the metamagic feat itself. Essentially, crafting items adds a special additional use to the metamagic feat in question.



Also, on a complete tangent, would a planar bubble set to a Flowing Time trait plane speed up magic item creation?
Yes. Crafting time is entirely dependent upon where you are crafting.

[Hecuba]

To craft a metamagic enhanced item doesn't require that you have the appropriate metamagic enhanced spell available but that you have the metamagic feat itself. Essentially, crafting items adds a special additional use to the metamagic feat in question.

Humm. Looks like Tippy bypassed the issue. He is, of course, right: the text for applying metamagic to item creation is indeed under the metamagic feat and seperate from applying it to the spell. I didn't even think to look for that distinction. So the answer is that the virtual feat is too narrow in scope to apply.

[Jowgen]

Ahhhh, thats the Tippy-/thread-flavor that I love. :smallcool:

[Anthrowhale]

There are other metamagic reducers which appear valid for item creation since they directly reduce metamagic level adjustments.

Sudden X: Yes(ish): adjustment is +0 anyways. Add as many as you want.
Free Metamagic[Tome Dragon]: Yes (-1 to -4)
Adroit Casting [Halruuan Elder]: Yes (-1 min 1)
Improved Metamagic[Incantatrix]: Yes (-1 min 1)
Cloak of Mysteries[Dweomer Keeper]: Yes (-1 min 1)
Arcane Thesis: Yes (-varies to chosen spell min 0)
Metamagic School Focus: Yes (-1 to chosen school)
Pale Aura[Slaymate]: Yes (-1 to Necromancy)
Practical Metamagic: No (Only to spontaneously cast spells)
Easy Metamagic: No (Only to prepare or cast spells)

[Name1]

There are other metamagic reducers which appear valid for item creation since they directly reduce metamagic level adjustments.

Sudden X: Yes(ish): adjustment is +0 anyways. Add as many as you want.
Free Metamagic[Tome Dragon]: Yes (-1 to -4)
Adroit Casting [Halruuan Elder]: Yes (-1 min 1)
Improved Metamagic[Incantatrix]: Yes (-1 min 1)
Cloak of Mysteries[Dweomer Keeper]: Yes (-1 min 1)
Arcane Thesis: Yes (-varies to chosen spell min 0)
Metamagic School Focus: Yes (-1 to chosen school)
Pale Aura[Slaymate]: Yes (-1 to Necromancy)
Practical Metamagic: No (Only to spontaneously cast spells)
Easy Metamagic: No (Only to prepare or cast spells)

As far as I could see, the problem wasn't that we couldn't use the reduced spells to craft items, but that the plane of fire, on it's own, doesn't qualify us to craft items without the relevant metamagic feat.