OOTS #1054 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Forikroder]

not actually sure which one of them was more clever

[Shale]

Post hoc rationalization or the best plan he's ever made? We'll never know.

[Jay R]

Doomsealed!

Delightful.

[WindStruck]

Hey look at that fourth* panel! Belkar must also have some ranks in Profession (Barber).

[scienceguy8]

not actually sure which one of them was more clever

Blackwing, for pointing out the absurdity of the situation.

[DaOldeWolf]

The panels of this comic were interesting. Its quite a different choice. :smallcool:

[Black Socks]

Haley's taking a page out of V's book with the charges.

[Ramza00]

Is this a comic that just demonstrated the difference between intelligence and wisdom?

Intelligence (Blackwing / Raven Familiar). Intelligence Check she just screwed you, the glass is half full.

Wisdom Check (Belkar who has not good wisdom, since he needs owls wisdom to use scrolls). Yeah she just screwed me, but I figured out how to make lemonade out of it, and finding happiness in life is knowing how to squeeze those lemons?

Or am I misunderstanding the technical definitions of intelligence and wisdom that D&D use?

[Jay R]

not actually sure which one of them was more clever

I'd say Rich was. That was hilarious.

[IntelectPaladin]

In regards to the conclusion, I think it could easily be both.
Personally, I favour the latter.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

[3SecondCultist]

*Insert nitpick about the divergence in etymology and meaning between 'doom' and 'fate' here*

Great comic, Rich! The last panel made me laugh, as usual. :smalltongue:

[Griffincat]

Whose idea was it really? Like how many licks to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world will never know.

[JumboWheat01]

It was a simple and genius little bit of banter that proves how well knitted they are as a team, especially when it comes to combat.

And it continues to prove that Belkar is indeed a sexy, shoeless god of war. Maybe future halflings will start worshiping him in this world.

[Ramza00]

*Insert nitpick about the divergence in etymology and meaning between 'doom' and 'fate' here*

Great comic, Rich! The last panel made me laugh, as usual. :smalltongue:
I do not think Belkar would understand why you are nitpicking, to him nitpicking is using his daggers on the human and removing the lice and other faults as an afterthought.

Aka you are doing it wrong (belkar then does a demonstration with his two daggers)

[TerrickTerran]

Ahhh, Belkar, back to your amusing self. It's much appreciated.:smallbiggrin:

[Hamste]

Seeing Belkar would probably have had trouble killing giants on his own, I think this is Belkar being intelligent. He would have been stuck doing that anyways whether she told him to or not.

[ScaldnCoffeeCup]

I love it, it's like we get to have our classic Belkar cake and eat it too

[ti'esar]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

(I don't actually care, but I'm sure someone will know anyway).

Also, "The Doomsealer" may sound pretty hardcore, but it's not nearly as metal as the time Belkar rode an allosaurus through a ring of fire.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hey, whatever works. But I think this is honestly a great way to show how much better they work together now!

[Hamste]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

(I don't actually care, but I'm sure someone will know anyway).

Also, "The Doomsealer" may sound pretty hardcore, but it's not nearly as metal as the time Belkar rode an allosaurus through a ring of fire.

Assuming not vorpal, they would have died anyways and it just looked cooler to decapitate them than to stab them in the neck (possibly a crit).

[Seto]

Wow. First we had Haley and V taking out Giants like it was nothing, and now Belkar...

It's cool to see how powerful the Order has become. It's also a refreshing change of pace from the uphill battles against higher-ECL opponents. (I also love those, but... refreshing, as I said).

[Aegis J Hyena]

I'm going to have to go with Belkar on this, having tricked Haley. I'd be more worried if Belkar weren't down for killing the weak and hurt.

[Goosefarble]

This was a great comic, I love how Belkar's more world-wise in these recent strips.

[JoeyTheNeko]

aha haley uses her reframing the narrative ability again.

most because it's what belkar wants, but also because it's fun.

[Peelee]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

Finesse.

Wheeeeee!

[MReav]

Belkar not down with killing things? Really Haley? He wants to be the kill stealer, not the kill stealie.

[Zweisteine]

That's a pretty cool layout for the first five panels.

Nice touch with the decapitated beard, too!

[Gift Jeraff]

4D chess.:haley::belkar:

[Charity322]

Someone remind me please. When did Belkar get Feather Fall?

[DreadArchon]

I didn't understand why Belkar would complain about an order to finish off survivors.

This made the punchline especially funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Fri]

Someone remind me please. When did Belkar get Feather Fall?

Here in a flashback.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html

[GregTD]

Love it! Go Belkster!

[Anarion]

I love that Belkar is just rolling with this so well. Also, this whole fight is like "yes, the party is actually pretty strong now, wow."

[DaggerPen]

Wow, glad I decided to check before bed. Bam! Doomsealed! And I love Haley's general all-purpose greed. A pleasure as always, Giant!


...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

(I don't actually care, but I'm sure someone will know anyway).

Also, "The Doomsealer" may sound pretty hardcore, but it's not nearly as metal as the time Belkar rode an allosaurus through a ring of fire.


Assuming not vorpal, they would have died anyways and it just looked cooler to decapitate them than to stab them in the neck (possibly a crit).

It's a stick figure comic - there's not much of a neck to cut through.

[2.5 cats]

Awesome comic! Cool layout on the first half of the page.

And the next time my Pathfinder character finishes off a foe I'm totally going "BAM! Doomsealed!"

[Charity322]

Here in a flashback.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html

Ah thanks. I'd forgotten that.

[Grand Arbiter]

Apparently there is an advantage to being up late, unable to fall asleep...

Another great comic with a Blackwing delivered punchline. :smallbiggrin:

[liooil2000]

I wonder how much Haley would be overcharging Belkar if he theoretically accepted the offer, for a fly charge at ~289 gp. Also, that arrow to the knee in panel 3 :smallbiggrin:

[stsasser]

Belkar got the hardcore description for free!! :smalleek:

Haley is losing her touch.

[Rogar Demonblud]

*facepalm*

Yeah, you know it's high-level play when frost giants are mook speedbumps. Hope Belkar gets a level out of this.

[denthor]

Whose idea was it really? Like how many licks to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world will never know.

Three the answer is three.

Now on to things that shake the stickverse.

:belkar:Belkar the great little phyo that he is just got sanctioned violence to kill downed but not dead opponents. Kill stealing anyone?:smalleek:

[8BitNinja]

I got a new phrase to replace "get rekt scrub!"

"Get doomsealed scrub!"

[dtilque]

OK, the last few strips have mainly shown the Order is now a well-oiled fighting machine. V softens the giants up with fireballs, Haley finishes them off, and Belkar cleans up any they miss. That's all fine, but it's not a real challenge. Plus Roy and Elan have not gotten into the fray.

So what's going to be the real challenge here? A high-level divine caster or two? Some other monster, perhaps even an undead of some sort? Any ideas?

ETA: Should have done this before posting, but I just checked the SRD on Frost Giants. This looks like an entire tribe, so we should be looking for an adept, sorcerer, or cleric, plus probably a Jarl and maybe some winter wolves, ogres, and/or a young white dragon or two. I'm not a player, so I have to ask the board how much more of a challenge these kinds of beings are going to make it?

[KorvinStarmast]

OK, the last few strips have mainly shown the Order is now a well-oiled fighting machine. V softens the giants up with fireballs, Haley finishes them off, and Belkar cleans up any they miss. That's all fine, but it's not a real challenge. Plus Roy and Elan have not gotten into the fray.

Quite your whining and enjoy the joyful slaughter like a good murder hobo. Belkar has a lot to teach the likes of you.

1. Love Haley in full bluff mode.
2. Love Belkar in full Murderhobo mode.

All is right with the OoTS world.

Which means "dun dun dunh!" something bad is about to happen!

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Wonderful! Absolutelute b.... brilliant! Go Belkar! Go! Go our little Clean-upping Doomsealer!

[Pendulous]

Belkar strips are always the funniest.

[Basement Cat]

You know what? I've got feels that the Giant is about to unload with something big.

Belkar and Haley are solid here, but it feels like the plot momentum only allows so much build up.

Yeah....there's a "BOOM!!!" coming up, here, around the corner, I suspect. :smallwink:

EDIT: HEY!!! I just leveled up to Dwarf in the Playground! Woo-Hoo!!!:smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

That giant's face in the second to-last-panel. :smallbiggrin:

Giant, you truly are the master of drawing ancient horrors of ice and rock surprised.

[tsj]

Kinda sad that Haley wants to charge Belkar in an incounter

[dtilque]

Kinda sad that Haley wants to charge Belkar in an incounter

Family tradition. Remember Haley's father was going to charge Roy for the healing potion during the fight with Thog.

[Quild]

And thus is the narrative reframed.

[Killer Angel]

Belkar rulez! :smallbiggrin:

[Ruck]

I wonder how much Haley would be overcharging Belkar if he theoretically accepted the offer, for a fly charge at ~289 gp. Also, that arrow to the knee in panel 3 :smallbiggrin:

That frost giant may or may not have used to be an adventurer, but it's safe to say he used to be.


OK, the last few strips have mainly shown the Order is now a well-oiled fighting machine. V softens the giants up with fireballs, Haley finishes them off, and Belkar cleans up any they miss. That's all fine, but it's not a real challenge. Plus Roy and Elan have not gotten into the fray.

So what's going to be the real challenge here? A high-level divine caster or two? Some other monster, perhaps even an undead of some sort? Any ideas?

I'm not entirely sure there will be one. This battle may be a way of demonstrating that the Order is finally on the same page and maximizing their effectiveness as a team, particularly since the two biggest loose cannons (Vaarsuvius and Belkar) are in the fray here, fully on board with Roy's plan.

[Rack]

I wonder how much Haley would be overcharging Belkar if he theoretically accepted the offer, for a fly charge at ~289 gp.

Surprisingly little, the 225 she quoted at the start is clearly 1/50 of the list price of a wand of fly and knowing Haley she haggled that down a fair bit. So while she's doing more than maintaining wbl as she said Belkar still seems to be getting by far the better end of the deal.

[Ruck]

Ruck and Rack, posting back to back! Nothing confusing about that.

[dtilque]

Ruck and Rack, posting back to back! Nothing confusing about that.

Going to be a wreck?

[factotum]

I wonder how much Haley would be overcharging Belkar if he theoretically accepted the offer, for a fly charge at ~289 gp. Also, that arrow to the knee in panel 3 :smallbiggrin:

Difficult to say for sure, because a wand with Fly on it isn't a standard magic item according to the SRD. However, if we assume that such a wand would cost the same as other wands with 3rd-level spells on them, that would be 11,250gp for a wand with 50 charges on it, or 225gp per charge--so she's not actually overcharging at all for the actual casting, it's just the service charge and the 6% administrative charge that's pure profit for her.

[WindStruck]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

Not just decapitate. Power decapitate!

*Magic force daggers launch self across the room*

[Maelstrom]

Had to have the arrow to the knee, eh? ;)

[Laurana]

Best strip in a while! Crackingly good

[Shoelessgdowar]

Belkar got the hardcore description for free!! :smalleek:

Haley is losing her touch.

Belkar is winning on multiple fronts. No only did he haggle with Haley so he didn't pay her for a spell he won't need until the end of the encounter, he got her to give him a badass job description for free, and got her to give him loads of easy kills for no charge as well.


Quite your whining and enjoy the joyful slaughter like a good murder hobo. Belkar has a lot to teach the likes of you.

1. Love Haley in full bluff mode.
2. Love Belkar in full Murderhobo mode.

All is right with the OoTS world.

Which means "dun dun dunh!" something bad is about to happen!

Current hanging plots... Oracle needing to fulfill his false prophecies for Belkar, Blackwing, and Ghost Roy.

Linear Guild Remnants

The Rulers of the Rule (Tarquin and Malack's old party)

V's Contract

Some characters we've long since forgot have a grudge, like the Bandits from the Star Metal sidequest or the Flumphs... maybe another member of the Y-ky-k Kobold Family...


You know what? I've got feels that the Giant is about to unload with something big.

Belkar and Haley are solid here, but it feels like the plot momentum only allows so much build up.

Yeah....there's a "BOOM!!!" coming up, here, around the corner, I suspect. :smallwink:

EDIT: HEY!!! I just leveled up to Dwarf in the Playground! Woo-Hoo!!!:smallsmile:

1) See my above remarks to KorvinStarmast
2) Congratulations on your promotion.

------------------------

And on a more fun note... a short little new take on an old classic:

*sings*
~Shave and a head cut...
~Threeeeeeee Bits.

[hroþila]

Something tells me Haley's reaction wouldn't be "I've been had! Belkar sure outsmarted me and I lost on some bling!", but rather ... You're a moron".

*Insert nitpick about the divergence in etymology and meaning between 'doom' and 'fate' here*
It still works even if you take doom to mean "judgment, sentence".

[Puschkin]

Haha, this time I literally LOLed, great comic! I especially like that it's not just a good joke but also a good characterization of two characters at once!

[Kantaki]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

Frost giants have surprisingly thin necks.

[KishouTheBadger]

Looks like Haley isn't the only one fluent in "reframing the narrative" (I would link to comic no 975 for an example, but I don't have a high enough post count yet... T_T)

[ClaimingLight]

BAM! Doomsealed!

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Hamste]

Current hanging plots... Oracle needing to fulfill his false prophecies for Belkar, Blackwing, and Ghost Roy.


Is there more than one prophecy that Belkar asked for? Other than will he kill one of those people thing? That one actually got fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle.

[Rift_Wolf]

Ooh, right through the beard...
Last time I checked the Geekery thread they were arguing about whether a fireball and Haley would be enough to take down a Frost Giant. They're gonna have a fit when they see this...

[Shining Wrath]

Yep. Definitely old friends arguing. :smallbiggrin: Each of them knew what the other would say before they said it, but they argued because they both enjoy it and expect it of each other.
Haley didn't clarify if the 6% administrative charge applies only to the 225 gp base cost or also to the 50 gp service fee. These 3 gp swings matter!

Also, "Doomsealer" would be a most excellent name for the most expensive assassin on the continent.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So now he is a sexy shoeless God of Doomsealing, huh?

[Shoelessgdowar]

Is there more than one prophecy that Belkar asked for? Other than will he kill one of those people thing? That one actually got fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle.

1) No, Belkar did not ask if he'd kill one of them, he asked if he'd cause the permanent death of one of them... Oracle is Alive, Roy is alive, V is alive, Windwalker is alive, Belkar didn't cause The Death of Miko, Prophecy unfulfilled.

2) Belkar has not drawn his last breath -- ever, yet.

3) Ginko Bilboa

4) Elan has no had his happy ending, yet

5) Oracle predicted Roy would forget everything besides the Last Breath -- Ever prophecy.

Oracle can get by on his lies when people forget, but Belkar doesn't even know the Oracle was stabbed, so even from Belkar's perspective he still hasn't gotten his prophecy. The Oracle has lots of loose ends, even if Haley, V, and Roy have bought into the narrative spin to his lies about their prophecies.

[hroþila]

1) No, Belkar did not ask if he'd kill one of them, he asked if he'd cause the permanent death of one of them... Oracle is Alive, Roy is alive, V is alive, Windwalker is alive, Belkar didn't cause The Death of Miko, Prophecy unfulfilled.
Belkar didn't say anything about "permanent". That prophecy is fulfilled, as straightforwardly as koboldly possible.

[Curupira]

1) No, Belkar did not ask if he'd kill one of them, he asked if he'd cause the permanent death of one of them... Oracle is Alive, Roy is alive, V is alive, Windwalker is alive, Belkar didn't cause The Death of Miko, Prophecy unfulfilled.

The word "permanent" is not in Belkar's question in #0331. He asked "do I get to cause the death of any of the following (...)?"

Perhaps he should've added that word, as the Oracle likes to twist the answers, but we're talking about a low-wisdom character :smallsmile:

EDIT: ninja'd by hroþila

[Dr.Zero]

Yep. Definitely old friends arguing. :smallbiggrin: Each of them knew what the other would say before they said it, but they argued because they both enjoy it and expect it of each other.

I like to look at it in the same way.
More than Haley trying to trick Belkar (eventually they all know that Belkar isn't Elan and actually has a decent Int, in his own brain damaged way, to say it like Roy), I like to think that Haley simply accepted to come to terms with Belkar's need to be cool and changed the description (knowing that Belkar wanted only that).
Even because Haley too could see that Belkar was already doing exactly that.

On another subject: as others have said, that is some smart use of the panels.

[Vectner]

Damn, I'm going to miss Belkar someday soon. :smalleek:

[Kantaki]

2) Belkar has not drawn his last breath -- ever, yet.

Give it time, the little pest will be gone soon enough.
Have a bit patience.
For all we know the story ends with him having a few days left and then he dies falling down the stairs in some inn. Offscreen. And we hear about it when the remaining Order reunites for the epilogue


3) Ginko Bilboa

Oh, so you know what Blackwing asked? And that it didn't work when he tried it? Offscreen.
I bow before your superior knowledge.


4) Elan has no had his happy ending, yet

The story isn't over yet. Won't happen until then.
Again, have some patience.


5) Oracle predicted Roy would forget everything besides the Last Breath -- Ever prophecy.

Even if we take his every word as a prediction, he said Roy would forget when he goes through the memory charm. He didn't thanks to the Oracle’s spell.

[Quartz]

Ah, I was getting withdrawal symptoms.

Are we going to see Roy strut his stuff in the next strip?

[Trillium]

Next strip:
Roy decides, "What the hell, why I'm the only one not getting fun? Gotta try out new moves anyway."
Jumps from airship.
Forgets he ain't Belkar and ain't got ring of feather fall.
Gets distracted and misses the rock ledge, plummeting all the way down to the canyon floor, all the while screaming "Green fire wings, go!"
The party gets involved in another "Raise Roy after falling accident" sideplot.

[SunnyFox]

Frost Giant: Doomsealed!
Haley Starshine: Lawyered!

The Belkster proves he's not just a sexy, shoeless God of War, and not just a pretty face, but a pretty crafty guy!

[Psyren]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

It's likely an artistic choice to showcase how strong Belkar is. He can't impale weaker foes as visual shorthand like Roy can.

[Quibblicious]

Hey look at that fourth* panel! Belkar must also have some ranks in Profession (Barber).

Apparently he doesn't dull his daggers to make it hurt more... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html

Q

[Ralanr]

not actually sure which one of them was more clever

I'm gonna give it to Belkar here. It doesn't really matter since he was going to do the job anyway, but he was able to convince Haley that it did matter and thus trick her into trying to trick him.

I'm either thinking too much or too little about this scenario.

[ShinigamiKenji]

Current hanging plots... Oracle needing to fulfill his false prophecies for Belkar, Blackwing, and Ghost Roy.

Linear Guild Remnants

The Rulers of the Rule (Tarquin and Malack's old party)

V's Contract

Some characters we've long since forgot have a grudge, like the Bandits from the Star Metal sidequest or the Flumphs... maybe another member of the Y-ky-k Kobold Family...

People already said everything that needed to be said about the Oracle prophecies.

I highly doubt Thog would return by himself, perhaps only in the very end. Sabine also has no grand reason to return, since it was Tarquin who killed Nale. She might return when the Directors summon V's soul back to the Lower Planes. And Zzdtri is unlikely to get raised back, his corpse in the middle of the desert and such.

Tarquin is still recovering from his breakdown. Also, the dramatic flavor is greatly diminished if his return is too soon. I'm my opinion, his role is probably over until OOTS 2: Order Stickier

The bandit leaders were already killed by Miko long time ago.

And let the flumphs live peacefully, you sadist. :smalltongue:

[aurilee]

Belkar, Doomsealer.

BAM!

This strip has made me so happy. :') *sniff*

I haven't enjoyed a strip this much since we left O'Chul, MitD, Oona and Greyview.

Never change Belkar, never change.

[Quibblicious]

*Insert nitpick about the divergence in etymology and meaning between 'doom' and 'fate' here*

Great comic, Rich! The last panel made me laugh, as usual. :smalltongue:

Darkness falls across the land
The midnite hour is close at hand
Creatures crawl in search of blood
To terrorize y'awl's neighbourhood
And whosoever shall be found
Without the soul for getting down
Must stand and face the hounds of hell
And rot inside a corpse's shell
The foulest stench is in the air
The funk of forty thousand years
And grizzly ghouls from every tomb
Are closing in to seal your doom
And though you fight to stay alive
Your body starts to shiver
For no mere mortal can resist
The evil of the thriller...


Sorry... Doom always brings that to the mind of a bard...

Q

[Rogar Demonblud]

3) Ginko Bilboa.

Ginko Biloba was a trendy 'memory enhancer supplement' when the strip was posted, so it's pretty obvious Blackwing's question revolved around how to get Vaarsuvius to remember he existed more often. You'll notice the Oracle doesn't have the green power glow on, so he's not making a prophecy, just being snarky. Anyway, the question has been resolved as of the end of Don't Split The Party.

[HandofShadows]

Ok. Decapitating a giant with a dagger. I don't know how that happens at all. :smallconfused: Great interplay between all the characters though. :smallbiggrin:

[GreatWyrmGold]

not actually sure which one of them was more clever
I'm pretty sure Haley got more out of convincing Belkar to seal dooms (or even just getting him to not complain) than Belkar did out of not having to come up with a badass job title that he'll probably forget by the end of the battle.
Of course, if he doesn't and starts calling himself the Doomstealer until (or so that) his party members are frustrated at him, I'll have to revise my interpretation.


Last time I checked the Geekery thread they were arguing about whether a fireball and Haley would be enough to take down a Frost Giant. They're gonna have a fit when they see this...
Last I checked, a debate about monk levels and mithril plate had closed up and some silly dragon had asked about Xykon's Strength score.
And I checked a few seconds ago, so that's probably still accurate.


It's likely an artistic choice to showcase how strong Belkar is. He can't impale weaker foes as visual shorthand like Roy can.
Well, he can, but then he has to clean giant blood out of his sleeve.


I highly doubt Thog would return by himself, perhaps only in the very end.
Also, there's a good chance that he's dead, and that if he isn't he'll just keep gladiator-ing.

[aurilee]

Ok. Decapitating a giant with a dagger. I don't know how that happens at all. :smallconfused: Great interplay between all the characters though. :smallbiggrin:

If you notice, there are multiple slices on the giant's neck, so he didn't do it in one clean swipe. He slashed at the giant's neck a few times (four by my count) which eventually removed his head (and trimmed his beard).

[Doug Lampert]

Difficult to say for sure, because a wand with Fly on it isn't a standard magic item according to the SRD. However, if we assume that such a wand would cost the same as other wands with 3rd-level spells on them, that would be 11,250gp for a wand with 50 charges on it, or 225gp per charge--so she's not actually overcharging at all for the actual casting, it's just the service charge and the 6% administrative charge that's pure profit for her.

This is somewhat incorrect, wands, potions, and scrolls are the three items where the formula for the price is in the PHB.


Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.

Benefit
You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.

A wand of fly is allowed by the PHB rules, for those three types of items it doesn't matter in the least whether it's on the list of example items you might find in a random treasure or not.

Staffs, rods, wondrous items, arms and armor, and rings are all DMG items. There are guidelines for estimating a price, but they are guidelines for the DM, not rules for the players.

Wands, potions, and scrolls have rules for the player in the PHB which specify what spells can be used and how much it costs.

[Peelee]

You'll notice the Oracle doesn't have the green power glow on, so he's not making a prophecy, just being snarky.

The glow doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy, it just means that they will remember what he said.

[Dr.Zero]

Tarquin is still recovering from his breakdown. Also, the dramatic flavor is greatly diminished if his return is too soon. I'm my opinion, his role is probably over until OOTS 2: Order Stickier


:smallsmile:. While I surely hope to see a following to the OOTS, I don't think it will happen.
When they will have crushed Xykon (who is what, a 26 level lich sorcerer?) I can't see Tarquin (which maybe is epic, but in the lower tiers, and is a mere fighter, maybe multiclassed) being such an epic enemy for the OOTS.

The only way I thought we could see him again, was if he helped the OOTS to beat Xykon (maybe dying to save Elan from some Xykon's maximized lightning, to keep the Darth Vader theme going on), but I suppose this is over, since I don't think we will see both him and Belkar getting heroic deaths. It would be maybe too much on the side: "Be as evil as you like, as long as you are a hero at the end, then you're fine." and being Belkar a protagonist and having the clasp with the perfect exit sentence ("Why this doesn't hurt anymore?") we have a better candidate.
Moreover there are Ian and Geoff, the Captain, the bounty hunters, maybe Scoundrel... basically it seems they, and the VL, are the *gonists of another story.

Anyway there is the rift in the desert, and if that makes Tarquin understand that he is not the main *gonist of this story, we have a chance to see him again before the end.

[ellindsey]

Ok. Decapitating a giant with a dagger. I don't know how that happens at all. :smallconfused: Great interplay between all the characters though. :smallbiggrin:

Stick figures have really thin necks.

[Sian]

Wait, Belkar just recognize that Blackwing exists and is more than just a pet?

[Giggling Ghast]

I love it, it's like we get to have our classic Belkar cake and eat it too

How did Durkon sever a tentacle with a hammer?

[aurilee]

How did Durkon sever a tentacle with a hammer?

The same way you can rip apart a worm by squeezing it really hard or hitting it with a rock?

Blunt force can cause something to separate into pieces. Especially if there are any hard/brittle/bony bits. It just has to be a lot of blunt force.

I'll easily concede to "the magic of storytelling" but in both these cases, it's theoretically possible without a handwave.

EDIT: By the by, I think you quoted the wrong post in your reply.

[Wolfram]

That's how you write resumes!

[Reboot]

Haley didn't clarify if the 6% administrative charge applies only to the 225 gp base cost or also to the 50 gp service fee. These 3 gp swings matter!

I noticed that too. I'm assuming 6% of 275, since it's the higher number and greater profit (so GP291.50).

[Shining Wrath]

I noticed that too. I'm assuming 6% of 275, since it's the higher number and greater profit (so GP291.50).

Since we're talking about Haley, I'm assuming there's also a 6% fee to calculate the 6%, so add 0.06*16.5=0.99 on top of that.

[redzimmer]

Blackwing just gave me an idea what to do with the next rules lawyer in my group.

POOF~! You're polymorphed into a wizard's wise-cracking familiar.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The glow doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy, it just means that they will remember what he said.
There's some irony in how Blackwing wouldn't be able to remember the answer to a question about memory.


The same way you can rip apart a worm by squeezing it really hard or hitting it with a rock?
Both of those require two sources of force on the worm—your finger and thumb, for instance, or a rock and the ground.
Also, while the cut isn't as neat as a cut from (say) Roy's greatsword would be, it's certainly cleaner than what you'd expect from either of your examples (unless the rock had an edge or you used your fingernails, of course).

[aurilee]

Both of those require two sources of force on the worm—your finger and thumb, for instance, or a rock and the ground.
Also, while the cut isn't as neat as a cut from (say) Roy's greatsword would be, it's certainly cleaner than what you'd expect from either of your examples (unless the rock had an edge or you used your fingernails, of course).

True, just whacking something with as much give as a tentacle generally wouldn't sever it. It's possible though that if the tentacle was providing it's own counter-force (ie, stiffening itself, or trying to move to grab someone/something), it could get broken in two.

But yeah, the place it was severed would be all splintered and messed up.

[Shining Wrath]

If the speed of the impact exceeds the speed of sound the object struck will shatter rather than deform. If ginormous squid tentacles are not very dense and therefore have a low speed of sound it is possible that Durkon's hammer simply disintegrated the point of impact.

[Peelee]

There's some irony in how Blackwing wouldn't be able to remember the answer to a question about memory.

Indeed. Much better than paying for a prophecy and not getting one.

Also, it was probably an error.

[Quibblicious]

True, just whacking something with as much give as a tentacle generally wouldn't sever it. It's possible though that if the tentacle was providing it's own counter-force (ie, stiffening itself, or trying to move to grab someone/something), it could get broken in two.

But yeah, the place it was severed would be all splintered and messed up.

I'd have to go dig up the comic, but IIRC, the tentacle was against the deck and therefore you have a clean point of compression.

FWIW, you don't necessarily need a secondary force -- bullets punch nice clean holes through objects like tin cans and they're rather blunt. It's the proportion of net force force relative to the strength of the object being sundered.

Sundered sundered sundered.... hee hee hee... I like that word. :smallbiggrin:

Q

[Sniccups]

Ring of Jumping plus Ring of Feather Falling. Amazing.

Also, why is it that I check the site every day but never get on the first page for these threads?

[Analytica]

DAMN but this comic makes a great job of conveying how extremely combat-savvy Belkar, as a high-level martial, is. The mobility in particular, the curves and tumbling; in my head this plays out as an anime fight scene and the comic panels match what I am seeing. :)

[aurilee]

I'd have to go dig up the comic, but IIRC, the tentacle was against the deck and therefore you have a clean point of compression.

FWIW, you don't necessarily need a secondary force -- bullets punch nice clean holes through objects like tin cans and they're rather blunt. It's the proportion of net force force relative to the strength of the object being sundered.

Sundered sundered sundered.... hee hee hee... I like that word. :smallbiggrin:

Q

Yeah, I couldn't remember if there was a wall or railing or floor or something in play. That would make it easier for Durkon to sever the tentacle.

And bullets can break through more brittle things, but they can eventually be stopped or repelled by a gelatinous block of some sort. Without a sharp tip, most blunt-force objects can be cushioned by malleable materials that would otherwise be easily cut in half by something pointy. I can punch through a piece of paper, but not through a stationary pillow, but scissors can cut through both without much trouble. I may be able to punch through a pillow though if there was enough counter-pressure being applied, like it being held tight in a frame that was pulling on all its corners (reducing the amount of give it has) and being moved in the opposite direction of my fist.

[Elkad]

Also, why is it that I check the site every day but never get on the first page for these threads?

Because you only check it every day. And your posts-per-page setting is likely too low.
Using this update, and the default 30posts/page, you had to beat 67 minutes for page 1.
On 60posts/page like a rational person, you had 391 minutes. Much easier with an evening and morning check.

[JumboWheat01]

Because you only check it every day. And your posts-per-page setting is likely too low.
Using this update, and the default 30posts/page, you had to beat 67 minutes for page 1.
On 60posts/page like a rational person, you had 391 minutes. Much easier with an evening and morning check.

What is this "rational" thing you speak of? Can it be eaten?

[Ruck]

Apparently he doesn't dull his daggers to make it hurt more... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html

Q

Well, he's also gotten a new dagger since then.

[nleseul]

How did Durkon sever a tentacle with a hammer?

A cleric did it.

[WoLong]

2. Love Belkar in full Murderhobo mode.

Ah, the fearsome Murderhobo.

[Snails]

I'm gonna give it to Belkar here. It doesn't really matter since he was going to do the job anyway, but he was able to convince Haley that it did matter and thus trick her into trying to trick him.

I'm either thinking too much or too little about this scenario.

Have you considered whether Roy planned it to work out that way, in the first place, yet?

[danielxcutter]

Well, he's also gotten a new dagger since then.

You mean Tarquin's old dagger of collision? The one the Order got after :tarquin: was dropped along with his entire cliche'd railroading story, right?

[8BitNinja]

Ah, the fearsome Murderhobo.

Isn't every PC a Murderhobo?

[ReyMonoArdilla]

...How did he decapitate a giant with Small daggers?

Quite stylishly.

[Ruck]

You mean Tarquin's old dagger of collision? The one the Order got after :tarquin: was dropped along with his entire cliche'd railroading story, right?

Yes, the one from #960. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)

[Quild]

Ooh, right through the beard...
Last time I checked the Geekery thread they were arguing about whether a fireball and Haley would be enough to take down a Frost Giant. They're gonna have a fit when they see this...

Probably not.

We don't know here what happened off panel. Melee damage are way to volatile (because of critical hits) for us to make calculations. Clearly 2 arrows and Belkar's full round attack are easily enough to kill a giant even assuming that V didn't cast anything.

For the second Giant, we can't see his whole body and if there might be some other injuries.

[Kareasint]

Isn't every PC a Murderhobo?

Pretty much. That does seem to be the standard M.O.

Haley didn't really need to say anything here. Belkar is going to murder any frost giants that are still moving.

I kept picturing the first two panels as a low gravity landing and bounce. My compliments to the Giant on an interesting panel design to show motion.

[LuisDantas]

Belkar is Belkar still. And Haley, too, is still Haley deep down.

[Quibblicious]

Ring of Jumping plus Ring of Feather Falling. Amazing.

Also, why is it that I check the site every day but never get on the first page for these threads?

You have to check it every 15-20 minutes... or was that seconds?

Anyway, once a day is not enough.

I'm so enraptured by this comic that I've read the online version at least a dozen times, and bought the books and the stickers and the XP point pads and the...

Q

[Quibblicious]

Yeah, I couldn't remember if there was a wall or railing or floor or something in play. That would make it easier for Durkon to sever the tentacle.

And bullets can break through more brittle things, but they can eventually be stopped or repelled by a gelatinous block of some sort. Without a sharp tip, most blunt-force objects can be cushioned by malleable materials that would otherwise be easily cut in half by something pointy. I can punch through a piece of paper, but not through a stationary pillow, but scissors can cut through both without much trouble. I may be able to punch through a pillow though if there was enough counter-pressure being applied, like it being held tight in a frame that was pulling on all its corners (reducing the amount of give it has) and being moved in the opposite direction of my fist.

I was wrong: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html

He's sklurtching it well off the deck and rail.

You have a valid point re:counter pressure. It applies even to blades -- a razor sharp blade will not easily cut a rope unless the rope is under tension. Read up on the net cutter that Iceland used to cut trawler lines during the Cod Wars with Great Britain in the 1950s-1970s -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars. It wouldn't have worked at all if there wasn't tension on the trawler lines.

BTW, the Icelandic flagship was the Thór. Bad ass.

Q

[Quibblicious]

What is this "rational" thing you speak of? Can it be eaten?

Are we talking iron rations or standard rations?

[Oy, there I go displaying my age again...]

Q

[Quibblicious]

Isn't every PC a Murderhobo?

In theory, Paladins aren't supposed to be...

Q

[JumboWheat01]

In theory, Paladins aren't supposed to be...

Q

And Druids so be semi-murder hobos, to preserve balance between life and death.

[Kish]

I would venture that anyone who thinks Roy, Haley, Durkon, or Elan is a "murderhobo" has missed at least a thousand comics.

"You move randomly from place to place and kill and rob everything you encounter there" is one particular playstyle--one that isn't nearly as popular as the memes about it would suggest and has had no official support for a very long time.

[aurilee]

I was wrong: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html

He's sklurtching it well off the deck and rail.

You have a valid point re:counter pressure. It applies even to blades -- a razor sharp blade will not easily cut a rope unless the rope is under tension. Read up on the net cutter that Iceland used to cut trawler lines during the Cod Wars with Great Britain in the 1950s-1970s -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars. It wouldn't have worked at all if there wasn't tension on the trawler lines.

BTW, the Icelandic flagship was the Thór. Bad ass.

Q

Hmm, I missed the little chunk flying off the tentacle before. I think it's a combination of Hinjo acting as a weight to provide the counter-force, the tentacle being tensed to be able to hold him, and the sheer crushing power of a dwarven warhammer that basically obliterated that area of tentacle. It wouldn't have been able to hold up Hinjo and then just snapped.

All this to say...give the Giant some credit. He had Durkon amputate a tentacle with a hammer in a realistic way, without "storyteller magic", and he did the same with Belkar decapitating a frost giant with multiple smaller slashes.

[War-Wren]

"You move randomly from place to place and kill and rob everything you encounter there" is one particular playstyle

That sounds exactly how I play Skyrim... :smallamused: Must get around to actually completing some of the quests, rather than wandering the countryside and diving into every random cave/ruin/fort I find :smallconfused:

[Quibblicious]

Hmm, I missed the little chunk flying off the tentacle before. I think it's a combination of Hinjo acting as a weight to provide the counter-force, the tentacle being tensed to be able to hold him, and the sheer crushing power of a dwarven warhammer that basically obliterated that area of tentacle. It wouldn't have been able to hold up Hinjo and then just snapped.

All this to say...give the Giant some credit. He had Durkon amputate a tentacle with a hammer in a realistic way, without "storyteller magic", and he did the same with Belkar decapitating a frost giant with multiple smaller slashes.

Absolutely. It's details that make this awesome comic.

Q

[Jasdoif]

Are we talking iron rations or standard rations?Based solely on the original claim that "60 posts per page" is what's being called rational in this case, we're talking MCI rations at best.

[Quibblicious]

Based solely on the original claim that "60 posts per page" is what's being called rational in this case, we're talking MCI rations at best.

Or what once were MREs...

When I was in the Corps, we referred to them as "Meal: Rarely Edible", or "Meal:Rejected by Ethiopia".

They've gotten a lot better over time :smallbiggrin:

Q

[Kish]

That sounds exactly how I play Skyrim... :smallamused: Must get around to actually completing some of the quests, rather than wandering the countryside and diving into every random cave/ruin/fort I find :smallconfused:
Welcome to why I've never had more than a tiny bit of interest in playing Skyrim.

[Peelee]

Or what once were MREs...

When I was in the Corps, we referred to them as "Meal: Rarely Edible", or "Meal:Rejected by Ethiopia".

They've gotten a lot better over time :smallbiggrin:

Q

It's pronounced "corpse."

[Kish]

If Quibbilicious has been in a corpse, I don't want to know why.

[aurilee]

If Quibbilicious has been in a corpse, I don't want to know why.

There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to be in a corpse.

For all you know, Quibbilicious is a very friendly, intelligent and talented maggot bard.

[Jasdoif]

It's pronounced "corpse."I think the vegetarian MREs are much more recent, yeah.

[Hamste]

There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to be in a corpse.

For all you know, Quibbilicious is a very friendly, intelligent and talented maggot bard.

Or maybe it was really cold out and they had to sleep in a still warm Tauntaun corpse to survive the night.

[aurilee]

Or maybe it was really cold out and they had to sleep in a still warm Tauntaun corpse to survive the night.

See? Plenty of legitimate reasons!

[8BitNinja]

In theory, Paladins aren't supposed to be...

Q

We are murserhobos, it's just that we kill only evil stuff and help the weak and helpless.

[Sermil]

"A Kill By Any Other Name"....

Would give as much XP.
So slaughter would, were not Doomsealing call'd,
Retain that lovely 'thump' which it cause
Without that title.

[F.Harr]

1. Awesome panel design.

2. Awesome manipulation, Belkar!

[Quibblicious]

It's pronounced "corpse."

Just like corpsman is pronounced.

Q

[Quibblicious]

Or maybe it was really cold out and they had to sleep in a still warm Tauntaun corpse to survive the night.

But at least it was a merry Hothmas.

Q

[GreatWyrmGold]

If the speed of the impact exceeds the speed of sound the object struck will shatter rather than deform. If ginormous squid tentacles are not very dense and therefore have a low speed of sound it is possible that Durkon's hammer simply disintegrated the point of impact.
I'd be as surprised by a supersonic warhammer as a sharp one—if not more. Durkon would be right to be confused.


]FWIW, you don't necessarily need a secondary force -- bullets punch nice clean holes through objects like tin cans and they're rather blunt. It's the proportion of net force force relative to the strength of the object being sundered.
Again, supersonic warhammers.


Hmm, I missed the little chunk flying off the tentacle before. I think it's a combination of Hinjo acting as a weight to provide the counter-force, the tentacle being tensed to be able to hold him, and the sheer crushing power of a dwarven warhammer that basically obliterated that area of tentacle. It wouldn't have been able to hold up Hinjo and then just snapped.
It doesn't seem to be under any serious tension. I mean, there's clearly a curve in the tentacle—if Hinjo was that difficult for the cetacean to lift, it would be straight. And I'm still not convinced that that alone would be enough to sever the tentacle as (relatively) cleanly as it did—or even sever the tentacle at all, given how thick it is.
Given that Durkon doesn't think he should have been able to cut the tentacle, it's probably just a friggin' joke.


Or what once were MREs...
When I was in the Corps, we referred to them as "Meal: Rarely Edible", or "Meal:Rejected by Ethiopia".
They've gotten a lot better over time :smallbiggrin:
So has Ethiopia.

[aurilee]

I'd be as surprised by a supersonic warhammer as a sharp one—if not more. Durkon would be right to be confused.


Again, supersonic warhammers.


It doesn't seem to be under any serious tension. I mean, there's clearly a curve in the tentacle—if Hinjo was that difficult for the cetacean to lift, it would be straight. And I'm still not convinced that that alone would be enough to sever the tentacle as (relatively) cleanly as it did—or even sever the tentacle at all, given how thick it is.
Given that Durkon doesn't think he should have been able to cut the tentacle, it's probably just a friggin' joke.


Well of course it's a joke. What this discussion was about though was to theoretically answer Durkon's question. With the force/damage of a critical hit, and enough other factors there are non-magical explanations for how it *could* work. This was clearly just something new for Durkon, since he's not used to being able to sever things. Given that he's not a physicist, his confusion at the situation doesn't mean that it's physically impossible. Just that it's improbable. :smallwink:

[Lombard]

This reminds me of my sister-in-law the grade school teacher preaching the virtues of redirection.

"OK who can be the one to sit quietly the longest?" Now it's not a requirement, it's a competition!

Anyways BB was way overdue for some splortching, he spent the last mini arc getting snaked and owned.

[Sniccups]

Okay, let me ask:

What is a murder hobo?

[Keltest]

Okay, let me ask:

What is a murder hobo?

Its a common term for a character who exists to wander around the countryside, kill people/monsters, and take their stuff. Bonus points for claiming to be "Lawful good", while still picking fights with otherwise non-hostile groups. Murder because they tend to be indiscriminate in their victims, and hobo because they don't really have a home so much as a favorite vendor to pawn their stuff to.

[JumboWheat01]

Okay, let me ask:

What is a murder hobo?


Its a common term for a character who exists to wander around the countryside, kill people/monsters, and take their stuff. Bonus points for claiming to be "Lawful good", while still picking fights with otherwise non-hostile groups. Murder because they tend to be indiscriminate in their victims, and hobo because they don't really have a home so much as a favorite vendor to pawn their stuff to.

Or the TLDR version: Adventurers.

[aurilee]

Or the TLDR version: Adventurers.

More like "bad role-players"

Someone on the previous page stated that this stereotype is a little over-used given how under-represented it is in actual life. I tend to agree with that. Saying all adventurers are murderhobos is funny, but can give a bad impression to someone who isn't familiar with RPGs. I don't think I've actually met a D&D player who did this kind of thing in a campaign. And I imagine that anyone who perpetrated kind of shenanigans wouldn't stay in the group for long.

I've seen this kind of behaviour more in video games. Even I've done that sometimes in cRPGs just out of curiousity and then reload and play my character properly (ie "hmm, I wonder what the game will do to me if I murder this whole town? Oh, the game does something stupid and has an impossible-to-kill character, got it." *reload*). But that's just a function of having a save to load from, and isn't how most people tend to play through the game. I've only ever played one character who actually slaughtered random people. But he was a chaotic evil barbarian who didn't believe that weaker people had a right to exist or own property they couldn't defend. In this case murdering people was role-playing, and even he didn't just roam the countryside killing everything in sight because he still had a purpose and a quest and wasn't going to waste time by being completely insane.

But yeah, a murderhobo is someone who doesn't actually understand the point of RPGs, is only out to accumulate stuff, is ignorant of any storytelling and doesn't understand that their character is supposed to have a personality.

/rant

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, let me ask:

What is a murder hobo?

Someone who wanders around killing sentient creatures because they have green skin and fangs and he* doesn't and then takes their stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html). Especially if their backstory is nonexistant and its motivation closer to maximizing a score/killcount than any kind of rational justification.

GW

*it is usually a he

[Goblin_Priest]

I've played with a number of groups and a general structure of:


1) Get quest
2) kill things
3) reward
4) Return to step 1

is pretty common. And it usually involves stripping every victim of all valuable (and not so valuable) possessions. And it's almost always an adventure across the lands, without a fixed point of residence. So, pretty much murderhobos by my account.

When I was young, many of us were disruptive players, but with grown-ups, now, even those who aren't motivated much by the story have the maturity to at least respect those who do and not do something that obviously breaks the plot or whatever the DM had prepared.

Some players aren't out for the story so much as being out for a turn-based combat game and/or just an excuse to hang out with friends. I don't really consider this style to be in any way inferior to hardcore roleplayers.

[Rift_Wolf]

I don't know why people are saying murder-hobos isn't a thing. Every dnd game I've been in. Every single one. Usually multiple powergamers as well. Even the Paladins got in on the Cruel and Unusual Punishment bandwagon after a while. Normally happens after a new player googles 'build optimisation' and rapidly descends from there.

[Jasdoif]

I don't know why people are saying murder-hobos isn't a thing.No one here has said murder-hobos aren't "a thing", as far as I can see.

[Peelee]

I don't know why people are saying murder-hobos isn't a thing. Every dnd game I've been in. Every single one. Usually multiple powergamers as well. Even the Paladins got in on the Cruel and Unusual Punishment bandwagon after a while. Normally happens after a new player googles 'build optimisation' and rapidly descends from there.

.....have you tried playing with dfferent groups?

[John Whorfin]

My favorite "quality" in Shadowrun is "Hobo with a shotgun". You adventure around with your friends, but you only feel comfortable sleeping on the streets. Worst mugging target ever!

[8BitNinja]

Just like corpsman is pronounced.

Q

Is that different from a corpsman?

[Manty5]

Current hanging plots... Oracle needing to fulfill his false prophecies for Belkar, Blackwing, and Ghost Roy.

Lets not forget that we don't know Roy's secret instructions to Roy's Archon before he got ressed - instructions that were given shortly after Roy discovered that the Oracle's sight had limitations.

[denthor]

Lets not forget that we don't know Roy's secret instructions to Roy's Archon before he got ressed - instructions that were given shortly after Roy discovered that the Oracle's sight had limitations.

Can you provide the comic number I have all books if needed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Every dnd game I've been in. Every single one.

Yeah. And given that stuff like chevauchee were a thing in the Middle Ages, murder-hobo-ism is one of the more historically accurate things about D&D.

edit:
Can you provide the comic number I have all books if needed.

664, right at the top.

[Rift_Wolf]

.....have you tried playing with dfferent groups?

I moved round a few groups at our university society, but a lot of them were powergamers and the rpers were a close knit group that I wasn't part of. I've gone off gaming proper tbh.

Maybe I wasn't clear; some people were saying murder-hobos isn't *prevalent*, not that it isn't a thing at all. In my experience, a lot of players don't really know what's going on between fights, and think it's fine to walk into town soaked in the blood of the Fallen, then fight the guards who stop them from entering the royal palace to ask the King for directions.

[Quibblicious]

Is that different from a corpsman?

Sure. Whatever helps :smallcool:

Q

[aurilee]

I moved round a few groups at our university society, but a lot of them were powergamers and the rpers were a close knit group that I wasn't part of. I've gone off gaming proper tbh.

Maybe I wasn't clear; some people were saying murder-hobos isn't *prevalent*, not that it isn't a thing at all. In my experience, a lot of players don't really know what's going on between fights, and think it's fine to walk into town soaked in the blood of the Fallen, then fight the guards who stop them from entering the royal palace to ask the King for directions.

I must have lucked out with the groups my friends and I were a part of. The worse we got was someone just not paying particular attention to the story, or maybe some munchkin-ing, but not true "murderhoboism" in that no one would just ignore the story, their alignment, societal rules etc. to thoughtlessly murder a village for some shiny things.

As for this:
1) Get quest
2) kill things
3) reward
4) Return to step 1

That's not murderhobo'ing, that's an an uncreative DM. You're technically completing the quest and theoretically moving some story forward. Murderhobo'ing is when you kill stuff that's completely unrelated to any quest/story just because you need the XP or their boots or something. If all your group's quests involve killing stuff and getting a reward, then you should consider a new DM.

[Kish]

Maybe I wasn't clear; some people were saying murder-hobos isn't *prevalent*, not that it isn't a thing at all.
Same question: Who?

[GreatWyrmGold]

More like "bad role-players"
It depends as much on the GM as the players—probably more, really. I consider myself a reasonably proficient roleplayer, but the past few campaigns I've played weren't suitable to roleplaying and were suitable to murderhoboing. The most roleplaying I did in recent ones was having a paladin chase down a battle-hungry barbarian and later rationalizing why he woudn't do that again.

Fun fact: The most RP-heavy RPGs I've ever played have all been play-by-post.


But yeah, a murderhobo is someone who doesn't actually understand the point of RPGs, is only out to accumulate stuff, is ignorant of any storytelling and doesn't understand that their character is supposed to have a personality.
It's a shame that the books tend to spend more time on the rules required to murderhobo properly than rules or guidelines for roleplaying or other intricate stuff.


No one here has said murder-hobos aren't "a thing", as far as I can see.
Plenty of people have downplayed them, suggesting that they're much less common than they are.


Same question: Who?
aurilee, mostly.

[Quibblicious]

I must have lucked out with the groups my friends and I were a part of. The worse we got was someone just not paying particular attention to the story, or maybe some munchkin-ing, but not true "murderhoboism" in that no one would just ignore the story, their alignment, societal rules etc. to thoughtlessly murder a village for some shiny things.

As for this:
1) Get quest
2) kill things
3) reward
4) Return to step 1

That's not murderhobo'ing, that's an an uncreative DM. You're technically completing the quest and theoretically moving some story forward. Murderhobo'ing is when you kill stuff that's completely unrelated to any quest/story just because you need the XP or their boots or something. If all your group's quests involve killing stuff and getting a reward, then you should consider a new DM.

As a starting DM (AD&D 1st Ed), I kind of threw things together willy nilly and used the random monster and treasure tables to the extent that I had real problems with players having too much stuff.

That changed when I ran the A Series modules (Against the Slavers, A1-A4), which had a consistent story thread for the four modules. I had created a world at that point and interspersed other encounters and side adventures along the way to disguise the story somewhat and to add depth.

It changed everything for the middle school group I was running. They went bonkers trying to figure out the story line and we ended up spending a summer playing nearly every day (sigh... I miss those days).

Anyway, the point is that a DM needs to learn to story tell for the players. Get it right, and even though the characters are driving the story, they'll want to go along the path you lay out.

Q
What did you think i did before I was a bard?

[aurilee]

Same question: Who?

Me :smallsmile:

Honestly it seems more that I just have a warped perception due to some extremely good luck with my gaming groups, and the gaming groups of my friends. So I have to defer to the others here and assume that murderhobos are quite prevalent within the gaming community. Which makes me kind of sad.


It depends as much on the GM as the players—probably more, really. I consider myself a reasonably proficient roleplayer, but the past few campaigns I've played weren't suitable to roleplaying and were suitable to murderhoboing. The most roleplaying I did in recent ones was having a paladin chase down a battle-hungry barbarian and later rationalizing why he woudn't do that again.

I think though, that if the DM is running a "murderhobo campaign", then the players themselves aren't really murderhobos, they're just playing the campaign and completing the quests laid out for me.

I'd only really classify someone as a murderhobo if they were going against a well-planned and detailed campaign just so they can kill a few dozen NPCs and level up.



It's a shame that the books tend to spend more time on the rules required to murderhobo properly than rules or guidelines for roleplaying or other intricate stuff.

It really is. But of course, there also aren't as many "rules" to roleplaying, so it'd be harder to write a book about it.



aurilee, mostly.

Yep. Although as I said above, I've since rescinded my comments since apparently I just live in the Twilight Zone.


As a starting DM (AD&D 1st Ed), I kind of threw things together willy nilly and used the random monster and treasure tables to the extent that I had real problems with players having too much stuff.

That changed when I ran the A Series modules (Against the Slavers, A1-A4), which had a consistent story thread for the four modules. I had created a world at that point and interspersed other encounters and side adventures along the way to disguise the story somewhat and to add depth.

It changed everything for the middle school group I was running. They went bonkers trying to figure out the story line and we ended up spending a summer playing nearly every day (sigh... I miss those days).

Anyway, the point is that a DM needs to learn to story tell for the players. Get it right, and even though the characters are driving the story, they'll want to go along the path you lay out.

Q
What did you think i did before I was a bard?

That's exactly it. The DM needs to have engaging and exciting quests/stories for the players. Things tend to go off the rails when a story or quest doesn't actually suit a character that a player has built, so the DM has to account for that to (ie, if someone chose a character with seafaring abilities, it's just cruel to make the majority of the campaign landlocked and that player will end up acting out in some way). He/she also needs to make it clear that he expects players to actually roleplay. If a paladin just murdered an old lady because he wanted her magical pet cat, then the DM has to call him/her out on that and give them some sort of warning. Players that insist on murderhobo'ing in the middle of a good campaign really shouldn't be part of the group. It ruins it for everyone else.

[Kish]

aurilee, mostly.
Edited: Never mind, if aurilee's not going to contest this assertion about what she said, it makes little sense for me to.

[Quibblicious]

Me :smallsmile:
That's exactly it. The DM needs to have engaging and exciting quests/stories for the players. Things tend to go off the rails when a story or quest doesn't actually suit a character that a player has built, so the DM has to account for that to (ie, if someone chose a character with seafaring abilities, it's just cruel to make the majority of the campaign landlocked and that player will end up acting out in some way). He/she also needs to make it clear that he expects players to actually roleplay. If a paladin just murdered an old lady because he wanted her magical pet cat, then the DM has to call him/her out on that and give them some sort of warning. Players that insist on murderhobo'ing in the middle of a good campaign really shouldn't be part of the group. It ruins it for everyone else.

That's the hardest part -- getting a good group dynamic going. My daughters love to play and they love the story lines, although at 12 & 9 they need a little prodding at times, but nothing unsubtle :smallsmile:

I'm in two groups now, a live one where we lucked into a group of guys who love RPGs and all try to play their character, not just the dice.

The other is an online group (Roll20) that took a while to gel, with people sliding in and out until it stabilized at a half dozen people. One is a friend of mine from college and we swap DM'ing so we each have adequate prep time.

It's a great time to be a gamer :smallbiggrin:

Q
Bard to the Stars. The ones in the sky. Yeah, they can't hear me but at least they pretend to listen.

[8BitNinja]

On the murder hobo thing.

Why do you need to roleplay, I just want to stab evil in the face.

joke
jōk/
noun
1.
a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline.
"she was in a mood to tell jokes"
synonyms: funny story, jest, witticism, quip

[Goblin_Priest]

I must have lucked out with the groups my friends and I were a part of. The worse we got was someone just not paying particular attention to the story, or maybe some munchkin-ing, but not true "murderhoboism" in that no one would just ignore the story, their alignment, societal rules etc. to thoughtlessly murder a village for some shiny things.

As for this:
1) Get quest
2) kill things
3) reward
4) Return to step 1

That's not murderhobo'ing, that's an an uncreative DM. You're technically completing the quest and theoretically moving some story forward. Murderhobo'ing is when you kill stuff that's completely unrelated to any quest/story just because you need the XP or their boots or something. If all your group's quests involve killing stuff and getting a reward, then you should consider a new DM.

Then we disagree on the terminology. What you describe as murderhobos, I describe as disruptive players. I don't consider those terms to be synonymous. I don't think there's an "official" definition to use, but I pretty much use this one:


Murderhobos is a term used (originally pejoratively, but occasionally affectionately) for the player characters in RPGs, both in video games and tabletop games. The term arises due to the fact that most adventuring characters and parties are technically homeless vagrants, generally living on the road and sometimes in temporary accommodation, and the default solution to problems faced by the typical adventurer boils down to killing things until the problem is solved or treasure is acquired. In many games (especially older pure hack and slash-types of the type that Gary Gygax despised) killing things and taking their stuff is simply the order of the day, all morally acceptable and proper, either because that's all the players are interested in doing or all the GM can come up with.

Especially the second sentence.

Consider a new DM? Why? We are just a bunch of friends hanging out and having fun. Some, if not most of the players, are in it purely for the hack n' slash. We rotate DMing and offer various levels of roleplaying and story, but the cliché of homeless adventurers who solve problems by the use of lethal force (and are rewarded for it) is pretty prevalent. After all, combat is pretty much what most of the book material is focused on. Why would someone bind themselves to the rules of some PnP system like DnD if all they want is a story?

[danielxcutter]

I think there's a place for most playstyles in D&D(although I don't even play it lol). I think that the way the creators made it is mostly "adventure" style, as in both mechanical abilities and role-playing are important, but since when have players stuck to the manual? :smalltongue:

[Kish]

It's explicitly against the rules here to suggest that someone's playing wrong, so yeah.

[ericgrau]

Really a high level adventurer provides a greater service to his allies than fly every single round. That's a low level spell for V now. With a bajillion sneak attack dice per round Haley is probably a lot better off killing a giant or two. All WBL items are merely a tool to this roundly end, so that's not really an excuse. We have to consider the investment cost sunk in them whether expended or not using an adventurer's ludicrous annual wealth growth rate as the ballpark for interest. Simply buying an eternal item and keeping your gold away from other purposes can be as bad or worse as dumping charges if it means less return from a round. It's harder to put an exact gp value on it, but the value blown on each and every high level adventurer turn is real and huge.

Of course while Haley's business understanding may greatly exceed all that, those aren't the words that help her squeeze a few gp out of a party member.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd be as surprised by a supersonic warhammer as a sharp one—if not more. Durkon would be right to be confused.


Again, supersonic warhammers.


It doesn't seem to be under any serious tension. I mean, there's clearly a curve in the tentacle—if Hinjo was that difficult for the cetacean to lift, it would be straight. And I'm still not convinced that that alone would be enough to sever the tentacle as (relatively) cleanly as it did—or even sever the tentacle at all, given how thick it is.
Given that Durkon doesn't think he should have been able to cut the tentacle, it's probably just a friggin' joke.


So has Ethiopia.

The speed of sound in the tentacle could be less than that in air. Difficult, but with magic - well, a wizard did it!

[krugg234]

Quite your whining and enjoy the joyful slaughter like a good murder hobo. Belkar has a lot to teach the likes of you.

1. Love Haley in full bluff mode.
2. Love Belkar in full Murderhobo mode.

All is right with the OoTS world.

Which means "dun dun dunh!" something bad is about to happen!

Murderhobo should be a playable class.

[ishnar]

I love the mini-treatise on motivations.

Does one give candy to children because of how it lights up their faces. Or does one give candy to children hoping to instill an early habit of eating sweets that eventually causes the children to contract type 2 diabetes and lead to the slow degradation of their bodies, depression, and increased profitability for owned biotech stocks.

[Kish]

Or does one give candy to children because they're more likely to have problems with moderating their candy intake later in life if candy is presented to them as a huge important forbidden thing when they aren't in a position to make decisions about what they eat?

--how did we get here, anyway?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thread drift, which we're so adept at we should try to score a patent for perfecting the concept.

[dtilque]

Thread drift, which we're so adept at we should try to score a patent for perfecting the concept.

Thread drift happens everywhere unless it's brutally suppressed. We have no special abilities for it.

[JumboWheat01]

Thread drift, which we're so adept at we should try to score a patent for perfecting the concept.

This is what happens when you cram a bunch of nerds and/or geeks into one location. We just love talking about stuff. Sometimes that stuff gets away from us, but we continue to talk about it because we love talking about any stuff.

[Quibblicious]

This is what happens when you cram a bunch of nerds and/or geeks into one location. We just love talking about stuff. Sometimes that stuff gets away from us, but we continue to talk about it because we love talking about any stuff.

But what are the odds that nerds/geeks will gather like this?

(Shhhh... that's to help the math nerds get their comments in. Everyone needs to get their geek on)

:smallbiggrin:

Q

[8BitNinja]

But what are the odds that nerds/geeks will gather like this?

(Shhhh... that's to help the math nerds get their comments in. Everyone needs to get their geek on)

:smallbiggrin:

Q

ComicCon or a Niel DeGrasse Tyson speech.

[Doctor West]

Or does one give candy to children because they're more likely to have problems with moderating their candy intake later in life if candy is presented to them as a huge important forbidden thing when they aren't in a position to make decisions about what they eat?

--how did we get here, anyway?

You just described exactly where my physical health went wrong, except in my case it was soda. :smalltongue:

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think though, that if the DM is running a "murderhobo campaign", then the players themselves aren't really murderhobos, they're just playing the campaign and completing the quests laid out for me.
I'd only really classify someone as a murderhobo if they were going against a well-planned and detailed campaign just so they can kill a few dozen NPCs and level up.
Well, personally I would define it on actions rather than intent, but to each their own.


It really is. But of course, there also aren't as many "rules" to roleplaying, so it'd be harder to write a book about it.
True, I suppose.


The speed of sound in the tentacle could be less than that in air. Difficult, but with magic - well, a wizard did it!
It's probably close to the speed of sound in water (since it's mostly made of water). And the speed of sound in water is faster than that in air.
Since Durkon didn't cast any buff spells that would make his hammer travel faster than the speed of sound, he still has reason to be surprised by A. Wizard's doings.


Thread drift happens everywhere unless it's brutally suppressed. We have no special abilities for it.
Although some of us might have the Improved Thread Drift feat.

[Manty5]

Although some of us might have the Improved Thread Drift feat.

Wouldn't that be the "Greater Obscure Topic" spell?

[Quibblicious]

Wouldn't that be the "Greater Obscure Topic" spell?

I don't know... I can't tell what the topic is any more...

Q

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Our threads drift like a lone wanderer from an old western.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, personally I would define it on actions rather than intent, but to each their own.


True, I suppose.


It's probably close to the speed of sound in water (since it's mostly made of water). And the speed of sound in water is faster than that in air.
Since Durkon didn't cast any buff spells that would make his hammer travel faster than the speed of sound, he still has reason to be surprised by A. Wizard's doings.


Although some of us might have the Improved Thread Drift feat.

Since we're all being fully nerdy, I shall hypothesize that a summoned creature is formed out of the least material required (conservation of energy and all that) and is therefore mostly empty space held together by Arcane Power So Vast It Dwarfs Your Puny Mortal Comprehension. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

and is therefore mostly empty space held together by Arcane Power So Vast It Dwarfs Your Puny Mortal Comprehension. :smallsmile:

Which makes them exactly the same as everything else, when you consider how little of an atom is actually physical matter. :smallamused:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Which makes them exactly the same as everything else, when you consider how little of an atom is actually physical matter. :smallamused:
I'm not sure we can apply the concept of "physical matter" to the building blocks that define physical matter.

[8BitNinja]

I'm not sure we can apply the concept of "physical matter" to the building blocks that define physical matter.

Why does matter matter

[factotum]

I'm not sure we can apply the concept of "physical matter" to the building blocks that define physical matter.

Atoms are not the building blocks of matter, subatomic particles are (and they themselves are made up of quarks and leptons, if you want to go even deeper down the rabbit hole). Neutrons and protons are physical matter, the space in between them is not. This is how neutronium (a super-dense material consisting entirely of neutrons) can be speculated to exist, and how it would be millions of times denser than the densest elements we know of--because most of the space occupied by those dense elements is empty space.

[mouser9169]

OK, the last few strips have mainly shown the Order is now a well-oiled fighting machine. V softens the giants up with fireballs, Haley finishes them off, and Belkar cleans up any they miss. That's all fine, but it's not a real challenge. Plus Roy and Elan have not gotten into the fray.

So what's going to be the real challenge here? A high-level divine caster or two? Some other monster, perhaps even an undead of some sort? Any ideas?


Every now and then when I was a DM I would have the party face up against a group of monsters that they could steamroll - particular if it was the identical setup to a group of monster that had given them much trouble in the past.

It's a problem in many narratives - you can feel it clearly in extreme 'level scaling' video games. It doesn't really matter if the party gets stronger, because the world gets stronger around them, so there's no feeling of true progress.

Here we have a badass end-boss that's stayed relatively flat power wise, and a party of good guys that are growing exponentially in power. This strip shows how much more powerful the party is now, vs the last time they faced off against Xykon. Without strips like this, why would we believe that the final showdown would end up any differently?

[KorvinStarmast]

Murderhobo should be a playable class.
It is. CN Thief to NE Thief. Until I saw what Rich did with Belkar, I'd not have thought a Ranger would fit, since I have a built in bias from OD&D about Rangers needing to be of lawful alignment. With alignment restrictions easing in later editions, a CN or NE Ranger is almost a perfect fit for a murderhobo. Somewhere between Robin Hood, and Il Cattivo from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, the Ranger gets around, is lethal, and is always out for "what's in it for me."

I'd not want to try and write up the 3.5e prestige class Murderhobo ... too much work, and not the play style I care for.

One of the points Rich made in the quoted comic, a few posts up, where Elan uses his new skill "Plot exposition" with pictures, is that "we have a goal."

That one simple thing, a goal, is how to build a game where murderhobo style play isn't as much fun. From the goal comes clues, treasure maps, people to see and interact with, villains, and the various obstacles between the party and the goal ... and distractions. I hate to get all corporate, but Roy is the kind of guy who would stand up in Management By Objective seminars and tell the group that "you've got to have goals" -- yeah, that's a 30 year old bit of business speak with, under all of the fluff and BS a kernel of truth.

Of you don't have an objective, it's easy to get distracted. Murderhobo play style seems to have a built in 'Oh, look, shiny!" feature to it. If the DM enables that (standard dungeon crawl like they made into a successful game -- Diablo I-- ) then that's what he'll get. If he enables story more, I think most players will respond.

Which brings us back to this strip.

Roy's goal (short term) and Bandana's goal (immediate) is to get through that pass to arrive at point X. That goal leads to the interaction with the dwarves, which leads toward gate encounter(Long term), Yeah, there will be distractions ...having a slaughter machine like Belkar along is a means to an end. (Plans, Objectives, and Milestones ... different sorts of monsters. Giants are far more entertaining).

(PS: Gawd, I am so glad to be out of management.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Atoms are not the building blocks of matter, subatomic particles are (and they themselves are made up of quarks and leptons, if you want to go even deeper down the rabbit hole). Neutrons and protons are physical matter, the space in between them is not. This is how neutronium (a super-dense material consisting entirely of neutrons) can be speculated to exist, and how it would be millions of times denser than the densest elements we know of--because most of the space occupied by those dense elements is empty space.
I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding what I mean.
Subatomic particles (and, to an extent, individual atoms) don't act the way physical matter does, because the properties of physical matter are derived from how subatomic particles (and complete atoms) interact. Hence, in my mind, it doesn't make much sense to consider neutrons and protons "physical matter," any more than it makes sense to consider (say) a lung to be a person.

[War-Wren]

I love the mini-treatise on motivations.

Does one give candy to children because of how it lights up their faces. Or does one give candy to children hoping to instill an early habit of eating sweets that eventually causes the children to contract type 2 diabetes and lead to the slow degradation of their bodies, depression, and increased profitability for owned biotech stocks.


Or does one give candy to children because they're more likely to have problems with moderating their candy intake later in life if candy is presented to them as a huge important forbidden thing when they aren't in a position to make decisions about what they eat?

--how did we get here, anyway?

However we got there, and whatever the reason, it all play's into Pentex's hands in the end... :smallamused:

[aurilee]

Then we disagree on the terminology. What you describe as murderhobos, I describe as disruptive players. I don't consider those terms to be synonymous. I don't think there's an "official" definition to use, but I pretty much use this one:



Especially the second sentence.

Hmm, yeah well I guess in my mind I consider "murderhobo" to be more of a negative description, rather than the description of a different playing style.



Consider a new DM? Why? We are just a bunch of friends hanging out and having fun. Some, if not most of the players, are in it purely for the hack n' slash. We rotate DMing and offer various levels of roleplaying and story, but the cliché of homeless adventurers who solve problems by the use of lethal force (and are rewarded for it) is pretty prevalent. After all, combat is pretty much what most of the book material is focused on. Why would someone bind themselves to the rules of some PnP system like DnD if all they want is a story?

Again, it all comes down to playing style. If your group likes action-oriented campaigns with quest after quest of killing monsters and getting cool loot, then go for it. My response was based on the fact that it seemed like the players in the hypothetical scenario didn't *like* that kind of campaign. In which case, they should look for a DM that suits their playing style.

Personally, I like more story and character-based games. But of course that's my preference and I guess I just also don't like calling people who like combat-oriented campaigns "murderhobos" because to me that sounds insulting.


Well, personally I would define it on actions rather than intent, but to each their own.


This again goes with what I said above. I don't like calling players who are simply playing through a combat-heavy campaign "murderhobos" because to me "murderhobo" is a negative term and I usually only apply it to a disruptive player.

But to each their own. Terms like this tend to morph based on the gaming groups people have been a part of and their own playing style.

[Shining Wrath]

I use "murderhobo" as a jocular term for parties whose preferred response to a challenge is to kill someone or something. It is as legitimate a way to play D&D as any other IMNHO as I do not believe in the existence of BadWrongFun. So long as everyone's having a good time I don't care if the party enters a dungeon as level 1 characters and fights their way through 250 bare 10'x10' rooms, each containing a single monster of appropriate level, and exits at the other end as 20th level characters. If that floats your boat, may your boat be floated.

[aurilee]

I use "murderhobo" as a jocular term for parties whose preferred response to a challenge is to kill someone or something. It is as legitimate a way to play D&D as any other IMNHO as I do not believe in the existence of BadWrongFun. So long as everyone's having a good time I don't care if the party enters a dungeon as level 1 characters and fights their way through 250 bare 10'x10' rooms, each containing a single monster of appropriate level, and exits at the other end as 20th level characters. If that floats your boat, may your boat be floated.

Well, who am I to complain about a term being used positively. :smallsmile:

And you know what? Even as someone who's all into the character-based role-playing stuff, I still enjoy a good dungeon crawl every now and again.

So yeah, I've tended to use murderhobo to describe disruptive players, instead of describing an actual play-style. But if people want to use it to describe a certain type of gameplay in a humourous manner, I obviously have no beef with that.

[factotum]

Subatomic particles (and, to an extent, individual atoms) don't act the way physical matter does, because the properties of physical matter are derived from how subatomic particles (and complete atoms) interact. Hence, in my mind, it doesn't make much sense to consider neutrons and protons "physical matter," any more than it makes sense to consider (say) a lung to be a person.

As far as science is concerned, subatomic particles are physical matter because they have both rest mass and volume. As for your analogy, would you also say that a drop of rain isn't fundamentally the same thing as a lake or ocean? Yet lakes can be formed purely from falling rain, so how is that different from a block of gold being made of lots of tiny subatomic particles stuck together in a particular arrangement?

[GreatWyrmGold]

This again goes with what I said above. I don't like calling players who are simply playing through a combat-heavy campaign "murderhobos" because to me "murderhobo" is a negative term and I usually only apply it to a disruptive player.
But to each their own.
I thought of it as more of a descriptive term than a judgemental one. And it's not like a player who insists on roleplaying is less disruptive to a murderhobo-esque campaign than a murderhobo is to an RP-centric one.
But to each their own.


As far as science is concerned, subatomic particles are physical matter because they have both rest mass and volume.
They're matter, but "physical" isn't something that scientists have defined with any rigor.
And I was under the impression that we were talking about "physical matter" in layman's terms, rather than "matter" in physicist's terms, if only because "physical matter" isn't a term I've heard physicists use while describing physics.


As for your analogy, would you also say that a drop of rain isn't fundamentally the same thing as a lake or ocean? Yet lakes can be formed purely from falling rain, so how is that different from a block of gold being made of lots of tiny subatomic particles stuck together in a particular arrangement?
Because I don't think rain is the same thing as a lake or ocean. Do raindrops have thermoclines or waves or currents or tides? Can algae or fish live in raindrops? Lakes and oceans are more than just the most basic sum of their parts, just like human beings and ecosystems and galaxies and blocks of gold, because those basic parts interact in ways which produce emergent properties—properties that can be as important as those of the parts if not more so.

[factotum]

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one...I don't see anything fundamentally different between a raindrop and an ocean other than scale, you do. That's fine, people can disagree without denouncing each other as reprobates, even on the Internet. :smallsmile:

[War-Wren]

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one...I don't see anything fundamentally different between a raindrop and an ocean other than scale, you do. That's fine, people can disagree without denouncing each other as reprobates, even on the Internet. :smallsmile:

LIES!! :smalltongue:

[Goblin_Priest]

I use "murderhobo" as a jocular term for parties whose preferred response to a challenge is to kill someone or something. It is as legitimate a way to play D&D as any other IMNHO as I do not believe in the existence of BadWrongFun. So long as everyone's having a good time I don't care if the party enters a dungeon as level 1 characters and fights their way through 250 bare 10'x10' rooms, each containing a single monster of appropriate level, and exits at the other end as 20th level characters. If that floats your boat, may your boat be floated.

Indeed. I see no problem with this kind of hack-and-slash gameplay, though it is basically playing murdering hobos, and I think anyone who takes this as an insult takes himself way too seriously. I could see the term as being considered insulting or at the very least being unappreciated if the playstyle it describes isn't desired by the person being called a murderhobo (someone intent on heavy RP might very well be unsatisfied with the GM just throwing a bunch of random encounters where every enemy fights to the death for no reason, with little to no plot support), but otherwise I consider it pretty harmless to self-assuming hack-n-slashers.

[aurilee]

I thought of it as more of a descriptive term than a judgemental one. And it's not like a player who insists on roleplaying is less disruptive to a murderhobo-esque campaign than a murderhobo is to an RP-centric one.
But to each their own.

Well sure, it all depends on the campaign. I didn't mean that all disruptive players would be murderhobos, only that the way I've used it has been to describe a type of disruptive player.

[GreatWyrmGold]

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one...I don't see anything fundamentally different between a raindrop and an ocean other than scale, you do. That's fine, people can disagree without denouncing each other as reprobates, even on the Internet. :smallsmile:
Not to denounce you as a reprobate or anything, but...I kinda listed several ways that oceans differ from raindrops.

[KorvinStarmast]

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one...I don't see anything fundamentally different between a raindrop and an ocean other than scale, you do.
Ocean is more saline than a rain drop, thanks to the evaporation step of the water cycle. :smallbiggrin: Pedantry provided at no additional charge, because today is Columbus day.

Note: if the ocean water and the rain drop were more like the rain drop, sailors in the age of sail would not have to carry barrels of water on the ship. They could just scoop it out of the ocean. (Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner ... "water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink ...

[aurilee]

Ocean is more saline than a rain drop, thanks to the evaporation step of the water cycle. :smallbiggrin: Pedantry provided at no additional charge, because today is Columbus day.

Note: if the ocean water and the rain drop were more like the rain drop, sailors in the age of sail would not have to carry barrels of water on the ship. They could just scoop it out of the ocean. (Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner ... "water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink ...

Hmmm...would the lighter load from not having to carry water counteract the reduced bouyancy? I have a feeling it wouldn't. The boat design may have to be modified...

*gets lost in hypothetical situations*

[Aeson]

Hmmm...would the lighter load from not having to carry water counteract the reduced bouyancy? I have a feeling it wouldn't. The boat design may have to be modified
Assuming that you do not replace the water with anything, the reduced load would counteract the loss of buoyancy to some degree. How much would depend on how big the ship is and how much water it would need to carry in order to provide for the crew for the duration of the voyage.

As far as design changes go: Freshwater is only about 2.5% less dense than saltwater. If a design which is "okay" in saltwater is not okay in freshwater due to the difference in water densities, the design is probably neither practical nor legal, and could very well have run into issues due to variations in saltwater density due to the local salinity and temperature of the water (say, when going into a harbor at the mouth of a river).

[aurilee]

Assuming that you do not replace the water with anything, the reduced load would counteract the loss of buoyancy to some degree. How much would depend on how big the ship is and how much water it would need to carry in order to provide for the crew for the duration of the voyage.

As far as design changes go: Freshwater is only about 2.5% less dense than saltwater. If a design which is "okay" in saltwater is not okay in freshwater due to the difference in water densities, the design is probably neither practical nor legal, and could very well have run into issues due to variations in saltwater density due to the local salinity and temperature of the water (say, when going into a harbor at the mouth of a river).

That does make sense. I've never noticed a distinct difference between the design of saltwater and freshwater vessels, and ships would have to be able to withstand a certain amount of variance in the the water density. I was just curious if maybe a ship that was designed to never sail in saltwater might be made from a different type of wood (or more modern material, depending on the era in question).

As for the water, ships never did carry *that* much water on its own (at least the fun ones didn't!). The drinking water ships carried was generally just part of the grog mixture. So the ships would still be carrying grog, but undiluted and they'd add water as they went.

[8BitNinja]

I use "murderhobo" as a jocular term for parties whose preferred response to a challenge is to kill someone or something. It is as legitimate a way to play D&D as any other IMNHO as I do not believe in the existence of BadWrongFun. So long as everyone's having a good time I don't care if the party enters a dungeon as level 1 characters and fights their way through 250 bare 10'x10' rooms, each containing a single monster of appropriate level, and exits at the other end as 20th level characters. If that floats your boat, may your boat be floated.

To be fair, RPG also means Rocket Propelled Grenade

[Peelee]

To be fair, RPG also means Rocket Propelled Grenade

Actually, that's a backronym from Ruchnoi Protivotankovyi Granatomyot. Like how the MiG was short for Mikoyan-Gurevich, or the AK-47 was short for Automat Kalashnikova. Russian military naming conventions are simple.

Bonus: the AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for Assault Rifle.

[8BitNinja]

Actually, that's a backronym from Ruchnoi Protivotankovyi Granatomyot. Like how the MiG was short for Mikoyan-Gurevich, or the AK-47 was short for Automat Kalashnikova. Russian military naming conventions are simple.

Bonus: the AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for Assault Rifle.

I know, it stands for Armalite, the company that manufactures the AR-15

[Quibblicious]

As far as design changes go: Freshwater is only about 2.5% less dense than saltwater. If a design which is "okay" in saltwater is not okay in freshwater due to the difference in water densities, the design is probably neither practical nor legal, and could very well have run into issues due to variations in saltwater density due to the local salinity and temperature of the water (say, when going into a harbor at the mouth of a river).

On a related note, most transport ships have three to four waterline marks painted on them, usually on a scale near the bow and stern -- salt water tropic, salt water, freshwater, and possibly freshwater tropic. Salt water and freshwater are obvious, but the tropic refers to whether the ship is in the tropics at the time. It matters since the temperature and salinity are different in the tropics compared to the more temperate areas, and the density of freshwater varies by temperature as well.

Just a little side note :smallbiggrin:

Q

[Quibblicious]

Actually, that's a backronym from Ruchnoi Protivotankovyi Granatomyot. Like how the MiG was short for Mikoyan-Gurevich, or the AK-47 was short for Automat Kalashnikova. Russian military naming conventions are simple.

Bonus: the AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for Assault Rifle.

It's for Armalite Rifle.

And the AR isn't an assault rifle; it's only semiautomatic.

And the Russian model for nomenclature is truly fascinating.

Q

[Manty5]

> That does make sense. I've never noticed a distinct difference between the design of saltwater and freshwater vessels

Since freshwater is on average far less deep than saltwater, one big difference is the draft. For example the Littoral Combat Ship the U.S. navy is working on has a shallower draft than many of the ships they'll escort, which means it can handle quite a few rivers that heavier ships cannot.

[factotum]

Since freshwater is on average far less deep than saltwater, one big difference is the draft.

For river transport that's probably true, but is it for, say, the ships that sail on the Great Lakes? Those are pretty darned deep, so I doubt shallow draught vessels are needed.

[Manty5]

However there's less need for a draft as the great lakes don't see quite as much chop as the open seas do.

[Quibblicious]

> That does make sense. I've never noticed a distinct difference between the design of saltwater and freshwater vessels

Since freshwater is on average far less deep than saltwater, one big difference is the draft. For example the Littoral Combat Ship the U.S. navy is working on has a shallower draft than many of the ships they'll escort, which means it can handle quite a few rivers that heavier ships cannot.

Freshwater and saltwater shipping channels are dredged to a minimum standard depth to allow vessels to navigate length of the planned channel. The Chesapeake Bay has three main channels that can handle any ship in the world.

Naval architects design ships to fit these channels' depth.

Q

[Quibblicious]

However there's less need for a draft as the great lakes don't see quite as much chop as the open seas do.

Go look up the Edmund Fitzgerald.

The Great Lakes are inland freshwater seas.

Q

[Shining Wrath]

The Great Lakes see significant wave action but I think the actual oceans still have them beat for maximum wave height as the distance the wave train has been pushed in the same direction by the wind matters - and you can get trains that have been pushed for thousands of miles out in the ocean. Then there's Rogue Waves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave), which do extra damage due to Sneak Attack.

The point of the LCS is to be able to operate in waters not prepared for a typical warship to pass, i.e., the littoral region. The Panama Canal needs to be refurbished as the locks aren't as wide as the largest merchant ships and oil tankers, which have to use the Strait of Magellan or pass south of Tierra del Fuego; a nasty place because the next land mass going due west is the eastern end of the Strait. That thing about waves building up in a consistent wind can work *really* well in 13,000 miles.

[Quibblicious]

The Great Lakes see significant wave action but I think the actual oceans still have them beat for maximum wave height as the distance the wave train has been pushed in the same direction by the wind matters - and you can get trains that have been pushed for thousands of miles out in the ocean. Then there's Rogue Waves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave), which do extra damage due to Sneak Attack.

The point of the LCS is to be able to operate in waters not prepared for a typical warship to pass, i.e., the littoral region. The Panama Canal needs to be refurbished as the locks aren't as wide as the largest merchant ships and oil tankers, which have to use the Strait of Magellan or pass south of Tierra del Fuego; a nasty place because the next land mass going due west is the eastern end of the Strait. That thing about waves building up in a consistent wind can work *really* well in 13,000 miles.

1. That explanation of a rogue wave is brilliant.

2. The winds still have several hundred miles to build up, which is still quite a bit. I've read reports of 15 foot wave conditions without a storm, which is pretty hefty.

3. The Panama Canal is being expanded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_expansion_project . I don't know its current status but it was targeted for completion this year.

4. The Straight of Magellen and the area south of Tierra del Fuego is treacherous for a very subtle reason -- there is a line of sea mountains corresponding to a fault line for the two plates that meet there. They push the ocean floor up and accelerate the water coming across the straight and through the more southern passage. This amplifies wind effects and makes the east to west flow particularly hazardous for shipping.

Q

[Grey_Wolf_c]

3. The Panama Canal is being expanded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_expansion_project . I don't know its current status but it was targeted for completion this year.


It completed and the first ship made its passage last June (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/panama-canal-first-ship-sails-through-newly-expanded).

GW

[Quibblicious]

It completed and the first ship made its passage last June (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/26/panama-canal-first-ship-sails-through-newly-expanded).

GW

In that case, Hurrah!

Although from what I've read it's already overloaded and there's not really space to make it bigger.

Q

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In that case, Hurrah!

Although from what I've read it's already overloaded and there's not really space to make it bigger.

Q

Also, the Northwestern Passage becoming ice-free might render it obsolete.

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

In that case, Hurrah!

Although from what I've read it's already overloaded and there's not really space to make it bigger.

Q

From the critics section, it's only near capacity at certain times of the year. :P

There's also the Nicaragua canal project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_Canal

Plus the North-West passage, as mentioned.

[8BitNinja]

What does the Panama Canal have to do with Order of the Stick?

[Manty5]

SShh! We're painting extra X's over the real topic so Lich Boy doesn't find them too soon!

[Quibblicious]

What does the Panama Canal have to do with Order of the Stick?

Epic Level Topic Drift. It's a special bardic ability.

Q

[Quibblicious]

SShh! We're painting extra X's over the real topic so Lich Boy doesn't find them too soon!

Well played :smallbiggrin:

Well played enough i had to post a comment on it :smallwink:

Q

[aurilee]

What does the Panama Canal have to do with Order of the Stick?

...this is a thread about Order of the Stick?

Since when?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...this is a thread about Order of the Stick?

Since when?

Agreed. It's quite clearly marked as an OOTS thread: On Orographic Transformation Schemes

GW

[Manty5]

Ocean-faring Or Transport Ships.

[JumboWheat01]

Overly Obtuse Talking Site.

[Quibblicious]

Overly Obtuse Talking Site.

Off Original Talking Schedule

Q

[Quibblicious]

Off Original Talking Schedule

Q

Obtusely Off-Topic Speakers.

That's me :smallwink:

Q

[Rogar Demonblud]

Obsessively Orating on Today's Sidebar.

Also, we're far enough off topic we'll probably get a new strip tomorrow. Or at least it seems to work that way.

[2D8HP]

Our threads drift like a lone wanderer from an old western.Like a hobo?

Okay, let me ask:

What is a murder hobo?
Saying all adventurers are murderhobos is funny, but can give a bad impression to someone who isn't familiar with RPGs. I don't think I've actually met a D&D player who did this kind of thing in a campaign......

But yeah, a murderhobo is someone who doesn't actually understand the point of RPGs, is only out to accumulate stuff, is ignorant of any storytelling and doesn't understand that their character is supposed to have a personality.

/rantUm as a "grumpy old geezer" of the forum, I would feel remiss if I didn't mention that in old D&D, most of your XP's came from the GP value of the treasure you brought back to town from the Dungeon, only some from "defeating" the monsters, so effectively looting not murdering was the goal of most PC's (if you did try to combat all the monsters, you quickly has a stack of deceased characters).
I had a stack of deceased characters.

:redface:
...this is a thread about Order of the Stick?Since when?

Obtusely Off-Topic Speakers.

That's me :smallwink:

QYour far from alone!


It's for Armalite Rifle. Which was a song from the 1970's!

Armalite Rifle
by
Gang of Four

Armalite rifle Police and IRA
Armalite rifle use it everyday
Breaks down easy fits into a pram
A child can carry it do it no harm
Armalite rifle and the holy trinity
It's used against you for Irish jokes on the BBC
Armalite rifle please skew the aim
Armalite rifle use it everyday
The rifle does harm it shoots for miles
If a bullet gets you in the heart destroys your insides
Armalite rifle police duty eh?
Armalite rifle use it everyday
It'll do you damage it'll do you harm
Blow your legs off blow your guts out
I disapprove of it so does Dave
It'll do you damage it'll do you damage
Damage damage damage damage damage

[Ruck]

Which was a song from the 1970's!

I actually saw Gang of Four in concert last night!

[Quibblicious]

Obsessively Orating on Today's Sidebar.

Also, we're far enough off topic we'll probably get a new strip tomorrow. Or at least it seems to work that way.

You can see the future!

Q

[Rogar Demonblud]

No, I've just developed a loose sense of when thread drift has reached a terminal status.

Or maybe Rich is sending me telepathic messages that the new strip is almost done, but I doubt it. Surely jasdoif has a much better ability to read the Giant.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Actually, that's a backronym from Ruchnoi Protivotankovyi Granatomyot.
You learn something new every day!


Bonus: the AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for Assault Rifle.
Fun fact—it's impossible to commit assault with an assault rifle. Unless you club someone over the head with it, I guess.


Then there's Rogue Waves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave), which do extra damage due to Sneak Attack.
I'm sigging this. No one will ever see it, but I am.


Also, the Northwestern Passage becoming ice-free might render it obsolete.
The silver lining in the nasty stormcloud of global warming.

[Peelee]

You learn something new every day!


Fun fact—it's impossible to commit assault with an assault rifle. Unless you club someone over the head with it, I guess.

Well, technically, it's very easy to commit assault with an assault rifle. It's battery that's the hard part.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, technically, it's very easy to commit assault with an assault rifle. It's battery that's the hard part.
Huh, for some reason I was under the impression that it was assault if you used your fists or a melee weapon and battery if you shot them.

[Peelee]

Huh, for some reason I was under the impression that it was assault if you used your fists or a melee weapon and battery if you shot them.

It also depends based other factors, like where you live and if you're using AA vs D cells.

[factotum]

Huh, for some reason I was under the impression that it was assault if you used your fists or a melee weapon and battery if you shot them.

Nope. Assault is attempting (or threatening) harm to someone, battery is actually harming someone. Either can be done with any kind of weapon, or with no weapon at all.