Pal2/Sorcerer X - what feat for a vhuman? Or is the half elf a better choice?

[Klorox]

Since I'd be starting paladin, I can't take warcaster (which is the only feat I really really want), so would the optimal race here be half elf (better stats and some minor abilities)?

Or is there a different feat I should be looking at? Heavy armor mastery or resilient CON, for example?

I plan on using this character as a sword and board type.

Thanks!!

[PeteNutButter]

Resilient con is good if you are ok starting with 3 16s and 3 8s. Go great weapon and don't bother with warcaster.

HAM is nice but better on a lock. Your best defense is shield spell spam so it won't see as much use.

EDIT: Overlooked the sword and board... Yeah, you kind of need warcaster... Resilient is probably still best option. You won't regret it when it prevents you from losing your haste.

[Oramac]

Since I'd be starting paladin, I can't take warcaster

Why not? Warcaster is a great feat to take.

That said, I'd recommend starting Sorcerer for Con save proficiency, unless you're really hooked on the idea of heavy armor. That way it frees you up to skip Resilient Con in favor of Warcaster.

[Rysto]

Why not? Warcaster is a great feat to take.

Because Warcaster has a prerequisite that you're able to cast spells, which Paladins can't do until level 2.

[PeteNutButter]

Why not? Warcaster is a great feat to take.

That said, I'd recommend starting Sorcerer for Con save proficiency, unless you're really hooked on the idea of heavy armor. That way it frees you up to skip Resilient Con in favor of Warcaster.

RAW you can't take warcaster without the ability to cast spells. A human lvl 1 paladin has no spells.

Starting sorcerer is a good option though. It's slightly MAD with requiring a 13 str for dex builds or a 14 dex with medium armor. If it were me I'd go paladin with heavy armor for aesthetics though...

[Oramac]

RAW you can't take warcaster without the ability to cast spells. A human lvl 1 paladin has no spells.

Crap, I forgot about that. Good call. Though I doubt most DMs would care that much. Level 1 usually doesn't last more than one session anyway.


Starting sorcerer is a good option though. It's slightly MAD with requiring a 13 str for dex builds or a 14 dex with medium armor. If it were me I'd go paladin with heavy armor for aesthetics though...

So forget the dex build. Just go Str/Cha/Con and use a longsword/greatsword. At most you're losing 2 AC (assuming 10 dex), which admittedly does suck, but it's not the end of the world.

Really, it depends on what's more important to you, the player: Con save proficiency or AC. Given Shield, I'd argue that Con save proficiency is probably going to get more mileage. Of course, the flip side is that a lower AC will get hit more often, requiring you to use that Con save.

[PeteNutButter]

Crap, I forgot about that. Good call. Though I doubt most DMs would care that much. Level 1 usually doesn't last more than one session anyway.



So forget the dex build. Just go Str/Cha/Con and use a longsword/greatsword. At most you're losing 2 AC (assuming 10 dex), which admittedly does suck, but it's not the end of the world.

Really, it depends on what's more important to you, the player: Con save proficiency or AC. Given Shield, I'd argue that Con save proficiency is probably going to get more mileage. Of course, the flip side is that a lower AC will get hit more often, requiring you to use that Con save.

Losing two AC completely negates the point of going sword and board, as it gives two AC. At that point you are better going great weapon with resilient con paladin. More stats and more damage, no need for warcaster.

[Gastronomie]

Did you ask your DM if you can take War Caster?

Well, I say the benefits of going Resilient (CON) or Heavy Armor Master for 16-8-16-8-8-16 beat Half-Elf.

[Klorox]

I'm thinking of the half elf as the best option. Better stats, and I can just use my longsword as a bastard sword (versatile) early on. I'll unstrap my shield when I run out of shield spells.

[Klorox]

Did you ask your DM if you can take War Caster?

Well, I say the benefits of going Resilient (CON) or Heavy Armor Master for 16-8-16-8-8-16 beat Half-Elf.

I know he won't let me. We're very RAW.

[Gastronomie]

I know he won't let me. We're very RAW.That sucks. Well, if he doesn't allow an smexy tattoo as an Arcane Focus, or alternatively, make the Shield a focus for both Paladin and Sorcerer spells, you might as well start off holding a Greatsword instead of S&B, and switch to S&B once you reach level 6 (Pal 2/Sorc 4, War Caster).

[lunaticfringe]

Shield Master
Lucky
Alert
Medium Armor Master (Dex based)
Defensive Duelist (Dex Based)
Savage Attacker
Heavy Armor Master (Str Based)
Magic Initiate: Warlock; Cantrip, Cantrip, Hex
Athlete

Any of those should do.

[Gastronomie]

Shield Master
Lucky
Alert
Medium Armor Master (Dex based)
Defensive Duelist (Dex Based)
Savage Attacker
Heavy Armor Master (Str Based)
Magic Initiate: Warlock; Cantrip, Cantrip, Hex
Athlete

Any of those should do.Those are good as well, but IMO to maximize in optimization the Feat should be one that increases STR, CON or CHA, like Heavy Armor Master or Resilient (CON), to get 16 in all 3 main scores.

BTW, if you're going DEX, Half-Elf is the best choice by far.

[Oramac]

Losing two AC completely negates the point of going sword and board, as it gives two AC. At that point you are better going great weapon with resilient con paladin. More stats and more damage, no need for warcaster.

Good point. Guess I'm just a sucker for great weapons.

[Willie the Duck]

Did you ask your DM if you can take War Caster?

Well, I say the benefits of going Resilient (CON) or Heavy Armor Master for 16-8-16-8-8-16 beat Half-Elf.

Should be noted, with half-elf, you can go 16 10 16 8 8 16


I'm thinking of the half elf as the best option. Better stats, and I can just use my longsword as a bastard sword (versatile) early on. I'll unstrap my shield when I run out of shield spells.

Or keep the shield on your arm the whole time and use those level 1 slots for paladin spells (using the shield emblem holy symbol) and 2d8 smites.


Good point. Guess I'm just a sucker for great weapons.

For a fighter or barbarian, I agree. For a paladin, I guess I feel that they should be winning the battle for the party when they are smiting and casting up a storm, and when they are reserving their spell slots, they are also supposed to be reserving their hp (by having a high AC). A barb or fighter brings the same technique to every fight (assuming short rests between at least). You pick a paladin if you want to be deciding how much power you want to leak out this given fight.

[Ruslan]

Why the insistence on sword and board, if I may ask? Polearm Master seems like a natural choice, giving you reach, Bonus Action attack, Reaction attack, and keeping a hand free in case of spellcasting.

[hymer]

Resilient (Con) is of course wonderful, bordering on mandatory if you want to do a lot of Concentration spells. And you do, right? Have you considered when you'll start using them a lot? Right from Sor1?
What I'm getting at is that +2 to Con saves may not be the greatest of effects, especially if you're not concentrating on spells that much. You might consider putting it off for your level 4 or even level 8 ASI. By then you'll be more likely to feel the effect.
How about Shield Master? Shoving people down and getting advantage on attacks aganst them is really nice, more so when you have a lot of extra dice in your bag ready to pour out, particularly if you crit - which you'll be nearly twice as likely to do with advantage.

[Klorox]

Why the insistence on sword and board, if I may ask? Polearm Master seems like a natural choice, giving you reach, Bonus Action attack, Reaction attack, and keeping a hand free in case of spellcasting.

I want to use green flame blade and booming blade.

The range of these spells is 5'.

I also want as high a defense as possible, so I can last in melee. I'll have less HP than most melee types, so the high AC is important.

[PeteNutButter]

Resilient (Con) is of course wonderful, bordering on mandatory if you want to do a lot of Concentration spells. And you do, right? Have you considered when you'll start using them a lot? Right from Sor1?
What I'm getting at is that +2 to Con saves may not be the greatest of effects, especially if you're not concentrating on spells that much. You might consider putting it off for your level 4 or even level 8 ASI. By then you'll be more likely to feel the effect.
How about Shield Master? Shoving people down and getting advantage on attacks aganst them is really nice, more so when you have a lot of extra dice in your bag ready to pour out, particularly if you crit - which you'll be nearly twice as likely to do with advantage.

Shield master isn't so hot on a paladorc who would rather spend their bonus action quickening a spell or cantrip for another smite. It gets worse and worse as he levels with more points to spend on quicken. Warcaster is better for concentration, especially early but in the situation, level 1 paladin, it's a good choice if he wants to be sword and board.

Resilient still has the most synergy with your kit and role.

[Ruslan]

I want to use green flame blade and booming blade.

The range of these spells is 5'.

I also want as high a defense as possible, so I can last in melee. I'll have less HP than most melee types, so the high AC is important.

In that case, I suggest starting Half-Elf, and waiting until Pal2/Sorc4 to pick Warcaster. Levels 3-5 will be a bit difficult, but from level 6 and on, Half-Elf will be strictly better than VHuman.

Half-Elf Pal2/Sorc4:
+4 points of ability increases
A feat, which may be Warcaster if you choose
Two bonus skills
Darkvision
Defense against Charm and Sleep

VHuman Pal2/Sorc4:
+4 points of ability increases
A feat, which may not be Warcaster because RAW
One bonus skill
No Darkvision
No defense against Charm and Sleep

[Klorox]

Shield master isn't so hot on a paladorc who would rather spend their bonus action quickening a spell or cantrip for another smite. It gets worse and worse as he levels with more points to spend on quicken. Warcaster is better for concentration, especially early but in the situation, level 1 paladin, it's a good choice if he wants to be sword and board.

Resilient still has the most synergy with your kit and role.

I think warcaster is better than resilient CON.

I remember reading advantage roughly works out to a +5. Resilient CON works out to about a +4 since I estimate this game going to around 10th level.

The ability to booming blade or green flame blade as a reaction is an awesome bonus.

[CaptAl]

I think warcaster is better than resilient CON.

I remember reading advantage roughly works out to a +5. Resilient CON works out to about a +4 since I estimate this game going to around 10th level.

The ability to booming blade or green flame blade as a reaction is an awesome bonus.

Warcaster is awesome. Booming Blade as a reaction is sweet. Have you considered spell sniper to use a whip or polearm from 10 ft away, though? Best way to not die from melee attacks is to stop them (Booming Blade) before they get to you.

[Willie the Duck]

I think warcaster is better than resilient CON.

It better be (for spellcasting), given how much benefit Reilient (Con) gives you besides your concentration checks.

[PeteNutButter]

I think warcaster is better than resilient CON.

I remember reading advantage roughly works out to a +5. Resilient CON works out to about a +4 since I estimate this game going to around 10th level.

The ability to booming blade or green flame blade as a reaction is an awesome bonus.

My post said, "Warcaster is better..."

[DivisibleByZero]

As you well know by now Klorox, I'm in the Dex half-elf Sorcadin camp.
13/16/14/8/9/16
War Caster at level 6 (2/4). Before then, if you want to act as more of a normal caster, you hang back like a normal caster would.
Draconic for more DPR/survivability or Trickery FvS for more spells.

Going S&B and only expecting to get to level 10ish, your AC and DPR will be about the same, but you'll have much better DexSave/init/goodies.
I see no reason to go with a Str build in your situation.

[orange74]

Does SCAG half high-elf with a wizard cantrip qualify you for Warcaster?

One thing about sword and board is that even with Warcaster you can't cast sorcerer spells that have a material component without stashing your weapon.

[Klorox]

As you well know by now Klorox, I'm in the Dex half-elf Sorcadin camp.
13/16/14/8/9/16
War Caster at level 6 (2/4). Before then, if you want to act as more of a normal caster, you hang back like a normal caster would.
Draconic for more DPR/survivability or Trickery FvS for more spells.

Going S&B and only expecting to get to level 10ish, your AC and DPR will be about the same, but you'll have much better DexSave/init/goodies.
I see no reason to go with a Str build in your situation.
It's definitely an option. I like that I can cover some rogue stuff with that high DEX and the right background.

[Klorox]

Does SCAG half high-elf with a wizard cantrip qualify you for Warcaster?

One thing about sword and board is that even with Warcaster you can't cast sorcerer spells that have a material component without stashing your weapon.

Maybe the SCAG cantrip would qualify for the feat, but half elves don't get a feat at level 1.

[orange74]

Maybe the SCAG cantrip would qualify for the feat, but half elves don't get a feat at level 1.
I am an idiot. Of course.

How about a 1/4 elf? Huh? Huh? Who's with me?

[Klorox]

I am an idiot. Of course.

How about a 1/4 elf? Huh? Huh? Who's with me?

LOL. I tend to overthink stuff like this too. It's all good.

[Klorox]

My post said, "Warcaster is better..."

You also said resilient has more synergy with my kit and role. I must've been concentrating on that when I wrote my response.

[PeteNutButter]

You also said resilient has more synergy with my kit and role. I must've been concentrating on that when I wrote my response.

Yeah, my bad should have clarified. Resilient con works better for your kit than any of the other options if you take first level in paladin. You can take whatever though to be honest and still be the strongest character at the table. Paladorcs are just so strong its hard to gimp.

[Mongobear]

Just throwing my $.02 into this topic.

Have you debated using Dragonborn if you intend on being a Strength based?

I have found that taking a Dragon type that is high in Dex save spells, then DracoSorc of a DIFFERENT Draconic type to be able to double dip elemental resists works out nicely, when dumping a Major save stat like Dexterity. If you would go Red/Gold Dragonborn, then take DracoSorc with an ancestry that allows you to resist Cold/Lightning you often times dont care when a Dex save effect comes up, because you have resistance to it anyways.

Also, are you ever going to have 6 levels in Paladin on this character? If so, Resilient is almost a waste, because you gain the Paladin Aura to add your Charisma to all your saves anyways.


That being said, I also had my own questions on this topic, as I too am making a Paladorc/Sorcadin for a Halloween Party Dungeon this coming weekend and I don't know which way to take it.

I have come down to wanting to either be a Strength based Dragonborn Pal 6/Sorc 2 or a Dex based Half-Elf Sorc 6/Pal 2 but I cannot make up my mind. Both of them have strengths and weaknesses in different things, and both of them fit the type of character I want to make but I cannot choose between which one I actually like more.

Is there a standard build that most everybody uses, or even a handbook for this type of character that can offer insights on the pros v cons of having sorc or paladin higher?

[hymer]

Shield master isn't so hot on a paladorc who would rather spend their bonus action quickening a spell or cantrip for another smite. It gets worse and worse as he levels with more points to spend on quicken.

I see what you mean, but you won't be quickening every round. You've got sorcery points to quicken a number of times equal to half your sorcerer level, unless you convert spells to spell points. For a long time you probably won't even quicken once per fight.


Warcaster is better for concentration, especially early but in the situation, level 1 paladin, it's a good choice if he wants to be sword and board.

I agree wholeheartedly; but it seems this thread is based on the premise that the DM won't allow Warcaster, since it's not RAW legal for the character.

[Klorox]

Just throwing my $.02 into this topic.

Have you debated using Dragonborn if you intend on being a Strength based?

I have found that taking a Dragon type that is high in Dex save spells, then DracoSorc of a DIFFERENT Draconic type to be able to double dip elemental resists works out nicely, when dumping a Major save stat like Dexterity. If you would go Red/Gold Dragonborn, then take DracoSorc with an ancestry that allows you to resist Cold/Lightning you often times dont care when a Dex save effect comes up, because you have resistance to it anyways.

Also, are you ever going to have 6 levels in Paladin on this character? If so, Resilient is almost a waste, because you gain the Paladin Aura to add your Charisma to all your saves anyways.


That being said, I also had my own questions on this topic, as I too am making a Paladorc/Sorcadin for a Halloween Party Dungeon this coming weekend and I don't know which way to take it.

I have come down to wanting to either be a Strength based Dragonborn Pal 6/Sorc 2 or a Dex based Half-Elf Sorc 6/Pal 2 but I cannot make up my mind. Both of them have strengths and weaknesses in different things, and both of them fit the type of character I want to make but I cannot choose between which one I actually like more.

Is there a standard build that most everybody uses, or even a handbook for this type of character that can offer insights on the pros v cons of having sorc or paladin higher?
I plan on having 2 levels of paladin. The game isn't expected to go above 10th level.

Yes, I know how incredible a level 6 paladin is. My advice is to find out how high a level the dm plans on your game going before committing to the "best" split of 6/14 (or 7/13 for OotA). As a whole, this community seems obsessed with the final level 20 build, but never sees what it looks like up to that point. JMO.

[Klorox]

I see what you mean, but you won't be quickening every round. You've got sorcery points to quicken a number of times equal to half your sorcerer level, unless you convert spells to spell points. For a long time you probably won't even quicken once per fight.



I agree wholeheartedly; but it seems this thread is based on the premise that the DM won't allow Warcaster, since it's not RAW legal for the character.

100% correct.

[Willie the Duck]

Is there a standard build that most everybody uses, or even a handbook for this type of character that can offer insights on the pros v cons of having sorc or paladin higher?

Short answer: no, there is no standard build. Sorcadin (or paladorc) seems to be one of the most popular multiclasses out there, and there are lots of opinions on the best builds (both in terms of class admixtures and in feats/ASI to take). In the 20-level lookback, people tend to either be firmly in the "take 2 of paladin and the rest in sorc" camp, or strongly feel that class ability X at level Y is valuable enough that you should stick in til that point. So that kind of covers all the options, doesn't it?

As to what to do at for exactly level 8 (I'm assuming this character won't be advancing)-- P6S2 has 1+racial feats/ASIs, spell slots as spellcaster 5, and charisma to saves, which makes a much more resilient basic experience (never underestimate the power of not failing an important save). P2S6 has P6S2 has 1+racial feats/ASIs, spell slots as spellcaster 7, and the 6th level ability of your sorcerer type (charisma to fire damage, if we're sticking with the fire dragon sorcerer example). Frankly for level 8, I would either go P2S6 for the extra spells (and the smites they provide) and the decent damaging cantrip, or I'd just be a Pal8 and get the extra feat/ASI and work as spellcaster 4. I hear a lot of people talk about pal6sorc14, but at level 8 specifically, I feel it hasn't really justified its' opportunity cost with a meaningful payoff yet.

[Gastronomie]

I've finished my guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass) if people are interested.

I personally think 6/14 is good for level 20 builds, but if you're gonna end before level 12 (6/6), 2/X or 3/X is probably better.