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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next 5e Classes [Steam Artillerist, Techmaturge, Magnificent Bastard, Lucky Shot, etc.]



Antioch
2016-10-04, 11:59 AM
Hey, all. I approached the campaign I was running this fall with the intent of having my players build their character concepts from scratch, following up afterwards by designing a custom class for each of them.

It's my first foray into 5th Edition, and I almost certainly have some biases and preconceptions associated with my six-odd years prior working with the Pathfinder system, so I'm dead certain that these classes are unbalanced, erring towards the overpowered side.

For the time being, I'm alright with that -- the characters are strong relative to the core 5e classes, but are (hopefully) roughly equitable with each other, so I've just been handling the power level of encounters by bumping up the CR by a decent bit. That being said, I'd very much so like to handle these classes on a case-by-case basis and bring them down to a more sensible level in a vacuum.

I'd also be very happy to hear your feedback.

Here are the extant classes:

Steam Artillerist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KeAyiUQLPygNX0fXG_Mr8Uk0TG7WTQXjM8GkLj-rMHA/edit): One of my players is Rax Gr'wal, a goblin lugging around a coal-powered pressure boiler that accumulates pressurized steam to operate an automatic crossbow. The class operates off of a "Pressure" mechanic that passively accumulates every round. It can be expended to improve attacks or purchase additional attacks, or it can be stockpiled to passively improve attacks. If the Pressure accumulated exceeds the character's Intelligence modifier, the boiler has a chance of overpressurizing and rupturing, reflected by the critical failure threshold of the weapon ticking up bit by bit for every unit of excess Pressure. I tried to go for a blend of risk and resource management for this class.

Reliquary Chemist (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QF7ff2qZvWRR35dO1ZEjUoebqOqUYEaIe07vzY6pc D4): Another player is Maeryn Torinal, a former explorer of ruins and apothecary. This is rather close to the Alchemist Pathfinder class, with an emphasis on area-of-effect battlefield control and buffs or damage mitigation for allies. I hoped to stress utility over firepower for this class, and attempted to provide a variety of options.

Techmaturge (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aAB1sAieSEmYUIFGStA-EmWevZhSOqW5Rdn1bibTF-E/edit): The ubiquitous "Magitech" class makes its appearance here, drawing inspiration from the third-party Machinesmith class from Pathfinder. In practice, the class performs like a more constrained Magus, emphasizing specialization over versatility. The character, Anders Mastersen, is very research-driven, and I wanted to reflect his progress by going for more depth rather than more breadth, in the context of his tinkerings and creations. As of the latest session, he has lost his arm to a disintegration curse and is attempting to create a prosthetic that doubles as a weapon with the assistance of a fellow party member.

Blitzmage: There's little to be said here -- this class isn't really in need of a link or a personal page. It's functionally the Storm Sorcerer archetype from Unearthed Arcana with a more lightning/thunder focused spell list, as well as an emphasis on mobility and evasion. I believe I also granted him the ability to add Charisma damage to his lightning/thunder-typed spell casts, to keep his damage output competitive with his allies (which is pretty indicative of the power curve for these custom classes that I'm hoping to eventually address). Though the class doesn't have quite the same spark of originality, my player really wowed me with backstory and RP, particularly as he tied his character's history to an extant lightning sorcerer that serves as one of the antagonists to this campaign.

Qianshou (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J-pbtLFbc3G7kpJ6xQochqmRDL1OqFIJu4QT2yHlvOk/edit): This was a fun character concept to discuss with my player, which I think can best be summed up by the three words "Mage Hands Monk". Of all the classes, I feel like this one is particularly flavorful, but also the candidate for the most overpowered. Thanks to the action economy of 5e, the character can only do so much per turn, but even so, being able to provide top-of-the-line damage, healing, and damage mitigation (albeit not all at once) has singlehandedly (many-handedly?) saved a few reckless party members from a grisly and foolish demise.

Blade Exemplar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-wdInl_XJXOdGeE5bWayxKEKV3zAeEPrJNT1JIWxlCM/edit): This was actually a class I designed for a middle-tier NPC boss fight, which is slated to go down this upcoming Saturday. The premise is that of a Fighter who's specialized in a variety of weapons, gaining the benefits of each corresponding fighting style as they change their stance and wielded weapon. This evolved from a throwaway NPC who had a cool weapon (an oversized greatsword where the blade was detachable and functioned as a tower shield, and the hilt and tang was a dueling longsword that could be locked in place).

Mechanus (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1neGCQ2D8aQhA8h-Ni1g61M6Ov3euIW-pLOzm4mMxRcI/edit): One of my players really wanted to play Warhammer 40K, presenting me with the concept of a character called Gaius pyr Arturius. I did my best to oblige him with this class, which is a mechanically powered suit of plate armor with a roaring furnace mounted on the back. The class was built with the intent of being the party tank by dint of the fact that it's difficult to ignore a screaming man in a smoke-belching, scalding suit of armor right up in your face, and operates on an Overheat mechanic. Rather than a finite resource that is spent, Overheat can be taken repeatedly to the user's detriment, stacking exhaustion on the user after a certain threshold. More risk than resource management with this one, but I find this class is well-equipped to have its moments of glory -- he has leapt in the way of a scorching ray intended for the rest of the party, cranking up his Overheat to painfully high levels, and linebackered a hapless brigand into the wall of a cave, pinning him there with his tower shield and then firing point-blank with the shield-mounted cannon.

Spellgrafted (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wW59gWFPZB5HrFGoDWx2ujXH6bLbdzYX9l5Ul5eSxYM/edit): Before you continue down this list and look at the ten-odd classes I've concocted, I want to assure you that I'm not running what would undoubtedly be the bed of chaos that is a ten-man campaign. Rather, I run two parties of five on two separate days of the week. On occasion, they interact, and on occasion, one cleans up the others' messes. This upcoming Saturday is an exception to the rule, and I've managed to herd the majority of those cats into what I hope is a gruesome meat-grinder of an encounter. Bearing that in mind, the Spellgrafted here, Torrhen Vanidier, is the primary tank for the second party. A blacksmith and enchanter by trade with a vested interest in curtailing the lycanthropy epidemic in his home city, he has gone to great lengths to graft a full-body suit of armor to his skin. As he levels, he gains his choice of upgrades to both his armor and weapon of choice, as well as an 'Investiture' mechanic that mimics the Barbarian's Rage with a handful of differences. The damage increase is lessened, there is no resistance to damage, but there is a minor benefit to accuracy and the defensive bonus is instead directed towards AC. In addition, at cost of exhaustion, he can make use of multiple 'stacks' of Investiture at once, for a nova round that renders him unassailable under ideal circumstances, and then completely worthless after the fact.

Lucky Shot (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ddRdusBmIYTwuQb9LZu-wyZUc5u1516Ou5O1qebpEhw/edit): I've approached the majority of my faith-based classes on the premise that most of the deities in my setting are particularly stingy with the boons they bestow, with the exception of two which have their own classes I've not yet tackled. In this particular case, the deity that governs the domain of Luck would like to stress that the only luck you make for yourself is in the dice you load, and is happy to grant their favor to those who understand this fact. For readers of Erfworld, you may be familiar with the analogy that likens Fate and Destiny to the whims of a railroading GM, and I tried to address that analogy in this class. Is the GM fudging dice? (Is a certain destiny predetermined?) Call their bluff and proceed through the narrative on your own terms. I admit I'm a huge fan of the flavor of this class, but I also have no idea if it's in any way balanced whatsoever.

Magnificent Bastard (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yH7jwMuyIiV-7bVEvzeVrbzXM-hzzzUrvq7oktQ8iTU/edit): This, too, is intended for an NPC boss. The NPC is a former player character from two years ago with their own custom Pathfinder class, and I tried to port it over to 5th Edition to the best of my ability. A tactician with the ability to inspire allies and at later levels grant action surges to them, the class nevertheless hinges on insults, as per the Cutting Words ability of the Lore Bard and slinging provocation, attempting to perform the role of a tank by active taunting effects and a parry-riposte mechanic.

Vanguard (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lGh0uyJxvWyBfjA-yC3a7hQ9Q8JCZ2UDphIEYYEELhE/edit#): I may reskin this into a more Saboteur class. My player wanted a military deserter with an expertise in firearms, improvised explosives, and guerilla warfare, and I drew inspiration from the Pathfinder class Slayer. Very much so sniper-lying-in-wait, benefiting primarily from Rogue Sneak Attack and Alchemist Bomb damage.

Warden (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1psoGRtj7-EVAwJbGyjnnZ87h7_D6p2Jk5fOLMFfPaII/edit): One player wanted to be a government-sanctioned assassin, and I couldn't resist the potential story implications later on down the line. Or, y'know, PK later on down the line. Either's good. Regardless, this is essentially an Assassin Rogue with some minor tricks and treats. I ported a portion of it over from an extant Pathfinder rogue-based custom class, but I have to admit it doesn't have the same uniqueness as, say, the Qianshou does.

I have a few more custom classes in the works, either prestige classes for interested players, or classes for major NPCs. You can take a glance at them here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sBWwCU9NbQzBAo8FmAd0VJO_uuY_1P05nwcEFzZRKMw/edit), and I'd definitely love anyone's thoughts on which ones seem thematically strong.

khadgar567
2016-10-04, 12:58 PM
Coal using mechanus is a odd choice but good and love the spell grafted it feels like they need to be fused between each other

Lalliman
2016-10-04, 01:36 PM
How much did you modify the rules? I see a number of disparities of which I'm not sure if they're mistakes or house rules.

caledscratcher
2016-10-04, 01:47 PM
First: I've only looked at the Steam Artillerist so far, but there are a few glaring problems.

One is that you don't state what levels things are gained at, so a reader has to constantly scroll back up to the table, and which causes problems involving abilities with the same name.

Second is that there's no subclasses, which given they're initially intended for one character is fine, but for general use heavily impairs its functionality, as well as general customization potential.

I think that's it, based on what I see right off the bat.

Antioch
2016-10-04, 02:04 PM
How much did you modify the rules? I see a number of disparities of which I'm not sure if they're mistakes or house rules.

I have a few house rules here and there, mostly with respect to exhaustion, downtime, lycanthropy, and critical hits. Can elaborate on them if you'd like.


First: I've only looked at the Steam Artillerist so far, but there are a few glaring problems.

One is that you don't state what levels things are gained at, so a reader has to constantly scroll back up to the table, and which causes problems involving abilities with the same name.

Second is that there's no subclasses, which given they're initially intended for one character is fine, but for general use heavily impairs its functionality, as well as general customization potential.

I think that's it, based on what I see right off the bat.

Ah, good point. I'll go back through them and fix that at some point this weekend.

I'd be interested in further refining them such that each class would have the ability to select from a few archetypes/subclasses. Could see the Artillerist specializing in a sniper/barrage/utility route, e.g.

Lalliman
2016-10-04, 02:06 PM
Edit: You ninja'd me, but I'll leave the post as is.

I read the Artillerist and Chemist, and man are they awesome. You have some real talent. I find it hard to estimate how powerful they are though, since they're so different from the existing classes.

Anyways, you haven't answered my question about house rules yet, but just in case, I'll list the rules I found that carried over from Pathfinder but shouldn't exist in 5e. If any of these were intentional, just ignore that one.
- Weapon-based crit rates and crit modifiers no longer exist.
- Scalding damage doesn’t exist. Frankly, I don’t think it had any right to exist in Pathfinder either.
- Concealment is now called being lightly or heavily obscured.
- A big one: Dex weapons get Dex to damage automatically. You shouldn’t have to give it as a class feature.
- The shaken and staggered conditions no longer exist.

Also, being Prone doesn't work as you described in the Artillerist class, but I assume that's intentional.

Oh, and +1 on what caledscratcher said about the level indications.

Antioch
2016-10-04, 02:21 PM
- Weapon-based crit rates and crit modifiers no longer exist.
- Scalding damage doesn’t exist. Frankly, I don’t think it had any right to exist in Pathfinder either.
- Concealment is now called being lightly or heavily obscured.
- A big one: Dex weapons get Dex to damage automatically. You shouldn’t have to give it as a class feature.
- The shaken and staggered conditions no longer exist.

Also, being Prone doesn't work as you described in the Artillerist class, but I assume that's intentional.

Oh, and +1 on what caledscratcher said about the level indications.

Thanks for the kind words and sharp eyes! As you can see, I'm still holding on to some Pathfinder habits. Occurs to me that I probably should have run a 5e campaign without any homebrews / house rules to get the hang of things first. >o<

- Critical threshold is something I liked about the system and wanted to keep around.
- I might get rid of things that change critical multipliers. A friend linked me this homebrewery thing (https://sterlingvermin.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/critical-hits-revisited.pdf) about critical hits that I thought was cool. I'm going to give it a spin this weekend.
- Scalding damage is fire damage now!
- Concealment is now being heavily obscured!
- Wow, I can't believe I goofed on that one. For some reason I thought it didn't apply to crossbows / firearms and the like. Guess I'll figure something out on that front.
- Fixed the shaken thing!
- Nixed the difference in Artillerist's prone to the usual prone -- the baseline is close enough to my needs, but made sure that ranged attacks made while prone aren't penalized (imagining a tiny goblin hunkering down, spraying and praying).

The level thing is definitely something I wanna fix, but I might have to table that until this weekend (got a test coming up on Thursday I should be studying for. :p)


Coal using mechanus is a odd choice but good and love the spell grafted it feels like they need to be fused between each other

Sorry I missed your post the first time around! My Mechanus and Spellgrafted actually did discuss the possibility of fusing their classes. Little do they know, I already have something rather like that...

To give a little bit of background, my Mechanus player's background has him hailing from a magically deadened country that's in the process of invading a particularly magic-rich continent to the south, their sole redeeming factor being really well-regimented and a decent bit ahead on the tech curve. They're five or so years into their military campaign, and they've been abusing the fact that they've laid their hands on healing magic to prototype some elite soldiers, performing otherwise-lethal surgery on them and implanting an exo-and-endoskeleton directly onto their skeletal structure.

Here's an idea (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11S_INetkYWsOUhj5mXxWF2W8mr_UPNPDFPQm9PMuYjA/edit) of what I'm intending to do with it. Definitely way, way ahead of the usual 5e power curve, I'm only foreseeing it be used for an antagonist NPC for a boss fight or a few.

Antioch
2016-10-05, 02:22 PM
The Steam Artillerist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KeAyiUQLPygNX0fXG_Mr8Uk0TG7WTQXjM8GkLj-rMHA/edit) has been updated! Every ability has its corresponding level listed, it's more rules-compliant, and has three subclasses: the Bolt Ace, Trigger Happy, and Autoclave.

The Bolt Ace emphasizes precision, the Trigger Happy emphasizes dakka, and the Autoclave emphasizes engulfing your screaming victims in a cloud of superheated steam.

Ze_Azrael
2016-10-05, 07:16 PM
Ok I'll start by saying that I really like your style. Working with the players to let them fulfill whatever their concept is is plain awesome. You have put in a commendable amount of effort into your game and the enjoyment of your players. You're the kind of DM I'd like playing with. The couple classes I've looked at are also quite original (to someone who never played PF at least) and evocative. As Lalliman said, you have some real talent.

You do lack grasp on the structure of 5e, which is entirely understandable as you're just switching over, and fortunately something that's easy to fix. I'd recommend if you have time and interest, play The Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure, at least part of it. It's a really well built pre-packaged, short adventure that serves as a great introduction to everything 5e.

I have written some feedback on the classes I've read so far (I started from the bottom). It might be written in a slightly harsh way, since it was mostly note taking as I read them and I tend to be fairly to-the-point, but I promise it's all in the interest of helping and all in good faith.
It's also fairly long so I'll use spoilers for the classes, and probably add in the rest of them as I read them later this week. I write a few questions that you don't have to answer for my benefit, rather they're to illustrate points that might be unclear and that if I had these, others might as well.


+X bonuses are far stronger (and therefore far less frequent) this edition, especially the +X to hit and damage. The first two classes I've read give a LOT of these. Consider using the Advantage mechanic where appropriate or severly lowering these bonuses.

There's a pretty consistent rule that the first couple levels slowly introduce you into the basic mechanic of your class and by level 3 you should have all the foundation laid out. 5th level is a considerable jump in power (mostly offensive power). Another such jump occurs at 11th level. Following this kind of curve provides a good framework to build your class upon.

Consider giving what people call "Ribbon Abilities". I feel one of the reasons your classes are so overpowered is because you give (considerable) mechanical benefits every single level. Ribbons are basically flavorful or really situational abilities that reinforce the theme/flavor of the class but don't boost its power level much. Look at the PHB Ranger to see some example of ribbons.



General: I don't really get the "government-sanctioned" feel from this. It's mostly a different, stronger Assassin. Some potential Ribbons could revolve around Charisma checks involving government-related organizations, or having some contacts in big cities or something like that.

Mark Target (says Study Target on table): There's no 'movement action' in 5e. Change it to something similar to the UA Ranger. "You can intently focus on a target you can see if you opt to not move on that turn. If you avoid moving, select one of the following Marks to affect the target." This would of course also affect the wording of Lightning Analysis
Then the bit about when you regain the Mark should go at the end of the ability to be consistent with how 5e does it.
I'd also put the bonus improvement in the general text (and probably nerf it, +7 bonus to all those things, that stacks with other sources is just insane... I personally wouldn't put this feature at level 1 to begin with imo). Something like "The bonuses provided by your Mark increase to +2 when you reach 7th level, and to +3 when you reach 15th level"

Is the Mark only in effect as long as you can see the target? Or when does it expire?
I take it there's no limit on the number of times you can Mark? As long as you keep killing them it's like a concentration-free 5th level hunter's mark? Seems too strong. Consider putting a number of uses per Rest. Perhaps WIS or WIS + 1 since you're tying the class to it? I don't know...

I'm pretty convinced this needs reworking in one way or another. It's broken as is.

Razor's Edge: I don't understand this ability... First off, how do you set them up? Action / Bonus Action / 1+ minutes...? Does the second part affect only pre-set traps? or can I do the Wanted thing with any dagger I throw and hit people around corners?

Armed to the Teeth: 'Assumed to have' in-game? or for game mechanics? Like any and all guards that see you assume you're armed? Or you're just so adept at concealing weapons that you can keep a weapon even if you're frisked and disarmed?

Not sure why you moved Expertise but alright xD

Silencer: How many times can you affect the same creature? Can I perma-silence a target until it's dead? Or once they fail / succeed they can't be affected until after a Long Rest? Also I'd word it as "you can force them to make a Constitution [...]" so that it doesn't have to happen all the time, too much rolling boggles combat.

Mercy: This is something everyone can do by the rules.

Elusive / Superhuman Reflexes The table says Elusive but the Ability says Superhuman Reflexes and provides quite a bit more than the Rogue's Elusive does... why?

Untouchable / Instant Death: Same here, two different names. I'd personally keep it's original Death Strike name but eh.



General: Studying is way to good. It can be massively crippling to a target at basically no cost... You can stack all of these on a target: impose disadvantage on Attacks and Concentration checks, a penalty to attacks = to INT, half movement and a penalty to DEX (likely reducing AC and adding a further penalty to Attacks).

I like the idea behind this but its current implementation is kind of broken. This class is also fairly good at a lot of things. If you're reworking some of these, consider what its niche really is.

Study Target Too big a bonus to be given at level 1 (too big in general imo). As I said, static +X bonuses are a dangerous thing to give now.

Poison Lore Might want to give proficiency in the Poisoner's kit? Also in case you don't know yet, the Dungeon Masters Guide has an entry on Poisons on page 257.

Hone Talent
I assume you choose one each time you get the feature right? It's not hard to figure out but perhaps make it a bit clearer by saying "At 2nd level you may choose one of the following Talents. You can choose an additional Talent at 4th, 6th, etc. level"
Some of these could be toned down a bit

Assault Leader, Disorient, To the Pain are over the line, and Wait For It is insane right now but if you tone down Study Target it might not still be broken.

Fast Stealth: Pretty sure this isn't a thing in 5e. Granted, the Hiding rules are a bit of a mess but there's nothing that prevents you from moving at full speed as long as you don't come into plain view of the creature you're hiding from.
Surefoot: It's called Difficult Terrain in 5e

Also I just saw that you keep getting these when you get Advance Talents... this means you can choose almost all of them... that's too much seeing as they're quite good... If you want to keep allowing regular Talents after they get Improved Talents, reduce the frequency at which Talents can be gained. Every other level is pushing it imo.

Sneak Attack Why does the die size change from d6 to d8??

Explosives Change "per day" to "at the end of a Long Rest" (or specify when and how they can be prepared). Thrown as an action I assume? What's the range? Standard 20/60 thrown range I assume? What's the damage type?

I like that these have charges. A lot of your stuff is fairly "Passive" or without any real kind of gating mechanism, which is another reason why these are over the top.

Alchemical Explosives
Demolition Charge: I don't know what Sunder checks are, they're not in 5e. It also calls a blast radius but I've no idea what this would be
Shrapnel Burst: There's no bleeding condition and says targets, but also no radius to determine how many targets could be affected.
Toxic Smoke: whats the difference between this and Poison Bomb Talent?

Fade into Shadow Low-light conditions is just called dim light

First to react Initiative is a check. So it should say Initiative checks.

Cripple Target Reductions to Ability scores aren't really a thing anymore on 5e. Besides, DEX is the god-skill of this edition and reducing that has a lot of implications... And personally, I wouldn't want to have to be constantly calculating how this affects all my monsters AC, skills, Attacks, Saves, Save DCs, etc on the fly...

Advanced Talent:
Opportunistic Shot: Easier to say that you grant advantage (which is what the optional flanking rule does). Being able to grant advantage to all allies at range at no cost is too good however. Perhaps make it only to the next attack (Or a number of attacks equal to INT mod if you want).

Feat: Feats are already class features. Consider giving the Vanguard additional ASI like the Rogue/Fighter instead.

For Blinding, Confusing and Crippling shot, I'd introduce the "the target can repeat the saving throw at the end of its turn" clause. Or add a cost to them so they can't be endlessly spammed. Or add the "target can't be affected again until a Long Rest" clause. Or any combination of them.
Also change Crippling to not drain STR (5e doesn't do this). You could change it to giving disadvantage on Strength attack rolls / ability checks, or halve the damage of weapon attacks using Strength like the Ray of Enfeeblement spell does.

Quick Shot I like the idea, though I feel the class doesn't need it (already strong), and goes against the patient preparation theme.

Deadly Snipe Consider using a similar language to the Great Weapon Fighting Style

Just as Planned I don't understand this Ability at all so I'll abstain from commenting.

Executioner Worded really weird for 5e... Not sure what a full-round action is... nor the critical damage multiplier (I assume you mean something akin to the Half-Orc's racial?). Also it just says "Attacks" does this mean all of my allies crit? I assume you meant attacks made by the Vanguard, right?

Antioch
2016-10-06, 10:54 AM
Ok I'll start by saying that I really like your style. Working with the players to let them fulfill whatever their concept is is plain awesome. You have put in a commendable amount of effort into your game and the enjoyment of your players. You're the kind of DM I'd like playing with. The couple classes I've looked at are also quite original (to someone who never played PF at least) and evocative. As Lalliman said, you have some real talent.

You do lack grasp on the structure of 5e, which is entirely understandable as you're just switching over, and fortunately something that's easy to fix. I'd recommend if you have time and interest, play The Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure, at least part of it. It's a really well built pre-packaged, short adventure that serves as a great introduction to everything 5e.

I have written some feedback on the classes I've read so far (I started from the bottom). It might be written in a slightly harsh way, since it was mostly note taking as I read them and I tend to be fairly to-the-point, but I promise it's all in the interest of helping and all in good faith.
It's also fairly long so I'll use spoilers for the classes, and probably add in the rest of them as I read them later this week. I write a few questions that you don't have to answer for my benefit, rather they're to illustrate points that might be unclear and that if I had these, others might as well.


+X bonuses are far stronger (and therefore far less frequent) this edition, especially the +X to hit and damage. The first two classes I've read give a LOT of these. Consider using the Advantage mechanic where appropriate or severly lowering these bonuses.

There's a pretty consistent rule that the first couple levels slowly introduce you into the basic mechanic of your class and by level 3 you should have all the foundation laid out. 5th level is a considerable jump in power (mostly offensive power). Another such jump occurs at 11th level. Following this kind of curve provides a good framework to build your class upon.

Consider giving what people call "Ribbon Abilities". I feel one of the reasons your classes are so overpowered is because you give (considerable) mechanical benefits every single level. Ribbons are basically flavorful or really situational abilities that reinforce the theme/flavor of the class but don't boost its power level much. Look at the PHB Ranger to see some example of ribbons.



General: I don't really get the "government-sanctioned" feel from this. It's mostly a different, stronger Assassin. Some potential Ribbons could revolve around Charisma checks involving government-related organizations, or having some contacts in big cities or something like that.

Mark Target (says Study Target on table): There's no 'movement action' in 5e. Change it to something similar to the UA Ranger. "You can intently focus on a target you can see if you opt to not move on that turn. If you avoid moving, select one of the following Marks to affect the target." This would of course also affect the wording of Lightning Analysis
Then the bit about when you regain the Mark should go at the end of the ability to be consistent with how 5e does it.
I'd also put the bonus improvement in the general text (and probably nerf it, +7 bonus to all those things, that stacks with other sources is just insane... I personally wouldn't put this feature at level 1 to begin with imo). Something like "The bonuses provided by your Mark increase to +2 when you reach 7th level, and to +3 when you reach 15th level"

Is the Mark only in effect as long as you can see the target? Or when does it expire?
I take it there's no limit on the number of times you can Mark? As long as you keep killing them it's like a concentration-free 5th level hunter's mark? Seems too strong. Consider putting a number of uses per Rest. Perhaps WIS or WIS + 1 since you're tying the class to it? I don't know...

I'm pretty convinced this needs reworking in one way or another. It's broken as is.

Razor's Edge: I don't understand this ability... First off, how do you set them up? Action / Bonus Action / 1+ minutes...? Does the second part affect only pre-set traps? or can I do the Wanted thing with any dagger I throw and hit people around corners?

Armed to the Teeth: 'Assumed to have' in-game? or for game mechanics? Like any and all guards that see you assume you're armed? Or you're just so adept at concealing weapons that you can keep a weapon even if you're frisked and disarmed?

Not sure why you moved Expertise but alright xD

Silencer: How many times can you affect the same creature? Can I perma-silence a target until it's dead? Or once they fail / succeed they can't be affected until after a Long Rest? Also I'd word it as "you can force them to make a Constitution [...]" so that it doesn't have to happen all the time, too much rolling boggles combat.

Mercy: This is something everyone can do by the rules.

Elusive / Superhuman Reflexes The table says Elusive but the Ability says Superhuman Reflexes and provides quite a bit more than the Rogue's Elusive does... why?

Untouchable / Instant Death: Same here, two different names. I'd personally keep it's original Death Strike name but eh.



General: Studying is way to good. It can be massively crippling to a target at basically no cost... You can stack all of these on a target: impose disadvantage on Attacks and Concentration checks, a penalty to attacks = to INT, half movement and a penalty to DEX (likely reducing AC and adding a further penalty to Attacks).

I like the idea behind this but its current implementation is kind of broken. This class is also fairly good at a lot of things. If you're reworking some of these, consider what its niche really is.

Study Target Too big a bonus to be given at level 1 (too big in general imo). As I said, static +X bonuses are a dangerous thing to give now.

Poison Lore Might want to give proficiency in the Poisoner's kit? Also in case you don't know yet, the Dungeon Masters Guide has an entry on Poisons on page 257.

Hone Talent
I assume you choose one each time you get the feature right? It's not hard to figure out but perhaps make it a bit clearer by saying "At 2nd level you may choose one of the following Talents. You can choose an additional Talent at 4th, 6th, etc. level"
Some of these could be toned down a bit

Assault Leader, Disorient, To the Pain are over the line, and Wait For It is insane right now but if you tone down Study Target it might not still be broken.

Fast Stealth: Pretty sure this isn't a thing in 5e. Granted, the Hiding rules are a bit of a mess but there's nothing that prevents you from moving at full speed as long as you don't come into plain view of the creature you're hiding from.
Surefoot: It's called Difficult Terrain in 5e

Also I just saw that you keep getting these when you get Advance Talents... this means you can choose almost all of them... that's too much seeing as they're quite good... If you want to keep allowing regular Talents after they get Improved Talents, reduce the frequency at which Talents can be gained. Every other level is pushing it imo.

Sneak Attack Why does the die size change from d6 to d8??

Explosives Change "per day" to "at the end of a Long Rest" (or specify when and how they can be prepared). Thrown as an action I assume? What's the range? Standard 20/60 thrown range I assume? What's the damage type?

I like that these have charges. A lot of your stuff is fairly "Passive" or without any real kind of gating mechanism, which is another reason why these are over the top.

Alchemical Explosives
Demolition Charge: I don't know what Sunder checks are, they're not in 5e. It also calls a blast radius but I've no idea what this would be
Shrapnel Burst: There's no bleeding condition and says targets, but also no radius to determine how many targets could be affected.
Toxic Smoke: whats the difference between this and Poison Bomb Talent?

Fade into Shadow Low-light conditions is just called dim light

First to react Initiative is a check. So it should say Initiative checks.

Cripple Target Reductions to Ability scores aren't really a thing anymore on 5e. Besides, DEX is the god-skill of this edition and reducing that has a lot of implications... And personally, I wouldn't want to have to be constantly calculating how this affects all my monsters AC, skills, Attacks, Saves, Save DCs, etc on the fly...

Advanced Talent:
Opportunistic Shot: Easier to say that you grant advantage (which is what the optional flanking rule does). Being able to grant advantage to all allies at range at no cost is too good however. Perhaps make it only to the next attack (Or a number of attacks equal to INT mod if you want).

Feat: Feats are already class features. Consider giving the Vanguard additional ASI like the Rogue/Fighter instead.

For Blinding, Confusing and Crippling shot, I'd introduce the "the target can repeat the saving throw at the end of its turn" clause. Or add a cost to them so they can't be endlessly spammed. Or add the "target can't be affected again until a Long Rest" clause. Or any combination of them.
Also change Crippling to not drain STR (5e doesn't do this). You could change it to giving disadvantage on Strength attack rolls / ability checks, or halve the damage of weapon attacks using Strength like the Ray of Enfeeblement spell does.

Quick Shot I like the idea, though I feel the class doesn't need it (already strong), and goes against the patient preparation theme.

Deadly Snipe Consider using a similar language to the Great Weapon Fighting Style

Just as Planned I don't understand this Ability at all so I'll abstain from commenting.

Executioner Worded really weird for 5e... Not sure what a full-round action is... nor the critical damage multiplier (I assume you mean something akin to the Half-Orc's racial?). Also it just says "Attacks" does this mean all of my allies crit? I assume you meant attacks made by the Vanguard, right?


Thanks so much for your feedback! Of the classes listed, Warden, Vanguard, and Qianshou are the ones in direst need of cleaning up. I think my game plan for them is as follows:

- Warden is getting turned into a Rogue subclass. I'll be maybe keeping a balanced version of Mark Target and Armed to the Teeth for level 3, and considering some other options for the other 3 archetype abilities. Silencer and Expose Weakness I like, but I'll need to think about it some more. It's a question of how much I want to emphasize the "this is someone whose job is to shank the heck out of a mage before they do some hocus-pocus" facet of what I had in mind for this character, and I think the answer to that is yes, so I have to design the archetype abilities in light of that aspect.

- Vanguard is getting flip-turned upside down. I'm gonna rename it Saboteur, and give it 3 subclasses. One emphasizes sniping, the other improvised explosives, and the other, guerrilla warfare. I want to take out sneak attack damage because it kind of treads on the uniqueness of the Rogue class, so I think my gameplan is to retool things such that each individual class gets bonus damage dice in some respect. For sniper, precision d8s, demolitionist, explosive d8s, and for trencher -- hm, that one I'll need to mull over some more. Still a vague idea of what's going to go down there.

I'll make sure to adjust things in line with the balancing you've mentioned and rules compliance with 5e as I go through these classes later today and rejigger them.

Antioch
2016-10-09, 03:16 PM
Vanguard (renamed to Saboteur (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lGh0uyJxvWyBfjA-yC3a7hQ9Q8JCZ2UDphIEYYEELhE/edit#)) and Spellgrafted (renamed to Invested (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wW59gWFPZB5HrFGoDWx2ujXH6bLbdzYX9l5Ul5eSxYM/edit)) have been edited to be more 5e-friendly, and also given three subclasses!

I snagged the Trapsmith rogue homebrew features for Saboteur, and made the Marksman, Demolitionist, and Trencher archetypes, which should be pretty self-explanatory.

The Invested's subclasses are the Path of Arms, Aegis, and Arcana, which should also be rather self-explanatory. The Path of Arcana still needs to be finished.

JohnFJoestar
2018-05-30, 12:20 AM
The Magnificent Bastard seems like a really fun class to play, and I made sure to set it aside for my next character. I can't wait to try it out!