Thoughts on Bladelock

[Anderlith]

Would it seem overpowering to allow the Pact of the Blade Warlock to have a 1d10 damage die for their weapon, no matter the shape it takes? I ask because usually bladelocks are subpar because of all the investment needed to only get something less powerful than eldritch blast, so I figure it might be okay to up the damage to be competitive, possibly letting the warlock add Cha to attack & damage instead of str or dex. Perhaps make all of these bonuses an evocation to balance?

[Specter]

D10 no, but CHA to damage is already an invocation (Lifedrinker). CHA to hit would bring abuse with it.

Bladelocks are not underpowered, it's Agonizing Blast that is too overpowered.

[ZX6Rob]

This is pretty much exactly what I do. I redid the Bladelock to work more like the Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade cantrips.

I have the full list in my House Rules, which is, I think, still linked in my signature. I'll reproduce the relevant elements here, though:


Warlock
Pact of the Blade - Heavily modified -- use these rules instead of the PHB feature
The Pact Blade takes the form of any melee weapon you like, provided that form has a reach of 5 feet
The blade deals 1d10 Force damage and has a reach of 5 feet, regardless of the form or shape you choose
The wielder uses CHA for attack and damage rolls, rather than STR or DEX
The blade counts as a magical weapon for the purposes of overcoming resistances
Drawing the blade from the ether takes your object interaction for the turn, just as drawing a mundane weapon would (no longer a bonus action)
The blade disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you at any time; you may draw it again on your turn as normal

Invocations
Changes & Rulings
Agonizing Blast - This invocation allows you to add your CHA modifier to a single casting of Eldritch Blast. If you can fire more than one beam due to your character level, you choose which beam receives the bonus damage. You may choose to add the bonus damage after you determine whether or not you’ve hit.
Lifedrinker - When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points using your Pact Blade, you gain advantage on your next attack roll.
Repelling Blast - When you hit a target creature with your Eldritch Blast, you can push that creature 10 feet. Creatures of Huge or larger size cannot be pushed with this ability.
Thirsting Blade - 5th level or higher, Pact of the Blade. As part of this invocation, make a single melee attack with your Pact Blade. If it hits, you deal an extra 1d10 Force damage. At 11th level, this increases to 2d10, and at 17th, it becomes 3d10.

New Invocations
Eldritch Glaive - Pact of the Blade. Your Pact Blade can now be formed into a melee weapon with a reach of 10 feet. All other statistics remain the same.
Withering Blade - 5th level or higher, Pact of the Blade. Whenever you successfully attack a creature with your Pact Blade that you have targeted using the Hex spell, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at 11th, and 3d6 at 17th.



That's pretty much it. Changing the scaling damage to a cantrip/invocation (which is what Thirsting Blade now does -- it was the invocation every single Bladelock took anyway, so why not?) with a single action prevents multi-classing shenanigans where you're getting bonus damage on every hit. Changing the damage die to a d10 which scales with level (thanks to the rebuilt invocations) keeps you on-par with a blast-o-lock. The rest of the invocations give you more options. I've most recently added Withering Blade to give you an option to keep up with damage from Eldritch Blast + Hex. Changing Agonizing Blast to once per casting instead of once per beam means that average damage for a blast-o-lock and a blade-o-lock are now exactly the same, provided the blade-o-lock keeps up with invocations (which is not elegant, I grant, but works for now).

It's way more house-ruling than you're probably considering, but if you decide to play with these options, please do give me some feedback for how it goes in your game. I think it does a good job of bringing both the Eldritch Blast-focused Warlock and the Pact Blade-focused Warlock in line with each other.

[NecroDancer]

I wonder if it would be to overpowered to deny a bladelock Eldritch blast but they get the warcaster feat at 5th level for free

[Tanarii]

It'd make Dex bladelocks more powerful while not giving anything to Str bladelocks.

[Malifice]

Blade-locks are perfectly fine as is. They require a dip into Fighter at 1st for peak effectiveness, but beyond that they're fine.

And I'd be furious if a DM nerfed my Warlocks greatsword damage down to 1d10.

Vuman Fiendlock 1/ Fighter 1,
S 16, D 8, C 14, I 8, W 12, Ch 16
Feat: HAM

HP 19 (great HP)
AC 19 (heavy armor + Defence style) plus DR 3/- plus 4 temp HP on a kill (Tanky Mctank)
Attack +5, 3d6+3 (hex) plus Greenflame blade (excellent damage)

Next level (Fighter 1/ Lock 2) it gets 2/ slots per short rest and invocations and 5 temp HP on a kill

Next level (F 1/ Lock 3) it gets 2nd level spells - Mirror image - and 6 temp HP on a kill

At 5th level (Fighter 1/ Lock 4) it takes GWM and Greenflame blade scales up. 7 Temp HP on a kill

At 6th level (Fighter 1/ Lock 5) it takes Thirsting blade and Fireball comes online. 8 Temp HP on a kill

At 7th level (F 2/ Lock 5) it gets action surge

At 8th level (F 3/ Lock 5) it gets superiority dice and manouvers

From there its Lock all the way for 9th level spells, scaling temp HP, more slots, resistance and dark ones own luck, more invocations, Life drinker, Warcaster at Lock 8, and Cha 20.

Strengths:

Utility: Spells, invocations at will
Single target damage - 2 attacks, action surge, GWM, sup dice, hex, hurl through hell, life drinker, hellish rebuke, greenflame blade
Tank: Heavy armor, defence style, spells, constantly replenishing temp HP, DR 3, Resistance
Ranged: Eldritch blast

Weaknesses are Dex and Int saves. Can add +1d10 to a save 1/short rest via lock.

[Malifice]

It'd make Dex bladelocks more powerful while not giving anything to Str bladelocks.

Dex bladelocks are just as nasty as Str bladelocks, however they require 3 levels of Swashbucker instead of 3 levels of Fighter to work.

Cunning action + Darkness at will + Expertise in stealth + Devils sight for the win. Hide every single round (as a bonus action) inside the dark cloud you live in for immunity to many attacks. Attack, hide, rinse repeat.

Dont forget to apply Hex to your victims Wisdom to apply disadvantage (-5) to your victims passive perception score and perception checks to find you. You're literally immune to being attacked in return.

It's so good its broken.

Expertise in persuasion + Cha 20 + disguise self and charm person at will. No party face is better. You're one charming mother when you pop out of your darkness cloud.

+ Cha to Initiative. Sneak attack +2d6. No slouch offensively either.

Did I mention as a Fey lock you also get to drop Sleep at least 1/ short rest at low levels?

[MeeposFire]

D10 no, but CHA to damage is already an invocation (Lifedrinker). CHA to hit would bring abuse with it.

Bladelocks are not underpowered, it's Agonizing Blast that is too overpowered.

Abuse? I would not go that far as it is instead of dex or str. It would make them far less MAD which may or may not be what you want. End result is the same though though of course it opens up more ASIs for feats or other ability scores. Heck even a cha based warlock would want some dex anyway for AC.

I would like bladelocks to get an invocation that gives them the ability to use a cantrip and make an attack as a bonus action or something similar. That way they get to cast spells and attack with a weapon.

[Malifice]

Abuse? I would not go that far as it is instead of dex or str. It would make them far less MAD which may or may not be what you want. End result is the same though though of course it opens up more ASIs for feats or other ability scores. Heck even a cha based warlock would want some dex anyway for AC.

I would like bladeocks to get an invocation that gives them the ability to use a cantrip and make an attack as a bonus action or something similar. That way they get to cast spells and attack with a weapon.

Str lock: Fighter 3/ Bladelock 17: Action surge.

Dex lock: Swashbuckler 3/ Bladelock 17: Cunning action (not quite but close).

[Gignere]

Dex bladelocks are just as nasty as Str bladelocks, however they require 3 levels of Swashbucker instead of 3 levels of Fighter to work.

Cunning action + Darkness at will + Expertise in stealth + Devils sight for the win. Hide every single round (as a bonus action) inside the dark cloud you live in for immunity to many attacks. Attack, hide, rinse repeat.

Dont forget to apply Hex to your victims Wisdom to apply disadvantage (-5) to your victims passive perception score and perception checks to find you. You're literally immune to being attacked in return.

It's so good its broken.

Expertise in persuasion + Cha 20 + disguise self and charm person at will. No party face is better. You're one charming mother when you pop out of your darkness cloud.

+ Cha to Initiative. Sneak attack +2d6. No slouch offensively either.

Did I mention as a Fey lock you also get to drop Sleep at least 1/ short rest at low levels?

Not sure what you mean by at will darkness and you can't have both Hex and darkness up at the same time.

[ZX6Rob]

Blade-locks are perfectly fine as is. They require a dip into Fighter at 1st for peak effectiveness, but beyond that they're fine.

That's fair enough, and I respect your opinion, but I believe that if a class requires dipping into another class to get going out the gate, that class could use some polish. Not every DM even allows multi-classing -- I don't, for example, in my current game.

Personally, I think it's like the old Beastmaster -- when you work out all the numbers, yes, the class falls within the bounds of what is expected in terms of damage and defense, but it doesn't feel very good. The worst part is that there is very little incentive to use your fancy blade in preference to your bog-standard laser beam -- if a blade-using Warlock can be shown to deal acceptable damage on average (with a degree of system mastery), it is simple enough to show that a beam-using Warlock can easily eclipse that amount, without exposing herself to the perils of going toe-to-toe with a powerful foe in melee range and without requiring quite the same level of foresight and build-planning.

That said, I do agree to this extent -- in a game where multi-classing is allowed and house-ruling is discouraged, a one-level dip into Fighter, followed by leveling a Pact of the Blade Warlock, is probably the most satisfying way to use the class and pact boon in the manner it seems to have been intended.

[MeeposFire]

Str lock: Fighter 3/ Bladelock 17: Action surge.

Dex lock: Swashbuckler 3/ Bladelock 17: Cunning action (not quite but close).

Yea but that does not remotely come close for me. 1 a short rest is just not good enough for the feel I would like. I just end up going EK8 with my warlock but I would have preferred if I did not have to multiclass to do it.

[Malifice]

That's fair enough, and I respect your opinion, but I believe that if a class requires dipping into another class to get going out the gate, that class could use some polish.

I agree with you here. The Warlock requires some finesse to pull off (generally Mc-ing).

You can do similar with a single classed 'lock but it takes much longer to get off the ground. I'd simply take a Vuman with PAM master in that case. Your lower AC is offset by the fact you're clobbering enemies with 1d10+1d6+Str on the way in to melee range, and milking temp HP if you drop them.

That and Hellish rebuke for a soft defence to deter the DM from attacking you.

[Foxhound438]

D10 no, but CHA to damage is already an invocation (Lifedrinker). CHA to hit would bring abuse with it.

Bladelocks are not underpowered, it's Agonizing Blast that is too overpowered.

I would agree with this. Looking exclusively at single class builds, Blaster warlocks are only second in power level to barbarians (merely due to GWM+reckless attack). Multiclassed with sorcerer for quicken, however, I'd have to say they are the most powerful at that point.

As an aside, after getting CHA to damage, MC'ing devotion palading gets you charisma to attack.

One fix I think would be acceptable to bladelocks would be to allow a pair of weapons as pact weapons, allowing dex builds to have decent value out of their bonus action, as opposed to the only optimized bladelock being "fighter 1/ warlock x with PAM".

[Foxhound438]

Dex bladelocks are just as nasty as Str bladelocks, however they require 3 levels of Swashbucker instead of 3 levels of Fighter to work.

Cunning action + Darkness at will + Expertise in stealth + Devils sight for the win. Hide every single round (as a bonus action) inside the dark cloud you live in for immunity to many attacks. Attack, hide, rinse repeat.

Dont forget to apply Hex to your victims Wisdom to apply disadvantage (-5) to your victims passive perception score and perception checks to find you. You're literally immune to being attacked in return.

It's so good its broken.

Expertise in persuasion + Cha 20 + disguise self and charm person at will. No party face is better. You're one charming mother when you pop out of your darkness cloud.

+ Cha to Initiative. Sneak attack +2d6. No slouch offensively either.

Did I mention as a Fey lock you also get to drop Sleep at least 1/ short rest at low levels?

cheeky as that is, a fight against things with other senses (blindsight and tremorsense are fairly common) wrecks your day. Like, not totally un-viable, but bad enough to have you saying "instant regret" after a creature you thought you were hidden from hits you for a ton of damage.

[Malifice]

cheeky as that is, a fight against things with other senses (blindsight and tremorsense are fairly common) wrecks your day. Like, not totally un-viable, but bad enough to have you saying "instant regret" after a creature you thought you were hidden from hits you for a ton of damage.

It does highlight the potency of cunning action plus invisibility or darkness though!

[Tanarii]

Dex bladelocks are just as nasty as Str bladelocks, however they require 3 levels of Swashbucker instead of 3 levels of Fighter to work.I said bladelocks, not multiclass dip bladelocks.

Edit fix quote tags

[CaptainSarathai]

I ask because usually bladelocks are subpar because of all the investment needed to only get something less powerful than eldritch blast, so I figure it might be okay to up the damage to be competitive, possibly letting the warlock add Cha to attack & damage instead of str or dex.

This is what I'm calling "The Gish Paradox," in one class. What do you wanna do? More damage in melee, or cast better spells? You can't do both. As a single-class Lock, you literally cannot do both because they are both full actions.
So you either go max Strength > Dex > Con and snag a Polearm and PAM
Or you go max Cha > Dex > Con and snag Crossbow Expertise.

You bust out Hex and start whipping around that Polearm at L20, with LifeDrinker, Hex and Str20, Cha14 and you have:
2d10+d4+21+3d6 = 45 damage
(54Dam if you suck up having lower Dex and/or Con and get Cha up to 20)

Or you throw an Agonizing Eldritch Blast, with Hex up, and 20Cha.
4d10+20+4d6 = 52.5 damage

I consider a single feat-tax to be largely expected, because without Crossbow Expert to allow point-blank EB shots, going Blaster hurts you if you find yourself in melee range. Otherwise, they can actually dish out pretty equivalent damage.

If there's anything that I think really holds the BladeLock back, it's this:
Your Pact Weapon does not count as an Arcane Focus - requiring Warcaster to let you pop off cantrips and so on with anything bigger than a D8 weapon. Blade Pact is clearly meant to make the blade your primary means of attack, so I don't think that it's unfair at all to change it so that you can use your sword as an Arcane Focus or form the sword around your wand or staff or whatever, thus allowing the use of bigger, 2H weapons.

Still, it's not terribly hard to make a character that maxes Dex and Cha, uses a Rapier and Mage Armor and is on par with plate armor for AC, has access to plenty of tempHP, and cranks out highly respectable amounts of damage with plenty of nifty utility tricks and dirty tactics up their sleeve.

[Tanarii]

If there's anything that I think really holds the BladeLock back, it's this:
Your Pact Weapon does not count as an Arcane Focus - requiring Warcaster to let you pop off cantrips and so on with anything bigger than a D8 weapon. Blade Pact is clearly meant to make the blade your primary means of attack, so I don't think that it's unfair at all to change it so that you can use your sword as an Arcane Focus or form the sword around your wand or staff or whatever, thus allowing the use of bigger, 2H weapons.
You already can use 2H weapons. Let go with one hand (no action). You now have the free hand that M component rules require to manipulate material components, arcane focus, or component pouches as part of the action required for casting the spell. In other words, no object interactions needed.