Hands =/= Hooves: Needed Find Steed Clarification & Spells That Work

[TheButterSwan]

This is my first post (outside the welcome thread), I apologize if it's rough. I'd also like to note that if your DM has declared a rule on Find Steed that contradicts mine, even after reading this, that their rule is god. Not mine. This is simply MY ruling. I guess you could say I "found my steed" :smallcool: browsing through a class I dont typically play to figure out what I could do with it and decided to look up a spell list online to see what was compatible. Here's the important paragraph in the spell stating it's interaction with the other spells:
"Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless unit. While mounted on your steed you can make any spell cast that targets only you also target your steed."
Not as simple as you'd think. In fact, instead of finding a list, I ended up in forums discussing how "overpowered" it was. So inorder to help others, I made one myself!
[p.] = Paladin spells
= Bard spells
Cantrips

-Blade Ward [b.]
-Guidance
-Resistance

Level 1

-Comprehend Languages [b.]
-Cure Wounds [p.] [b.]
-Disguise Self [b.]
-Expeditious Retreat
-False Life
-Healing Word [b.]
-Heroism [p.] [b.]
-Jump
-Longstrider [b.]
-Mage Armor
-Protection from Evil and Good [p.]
-Shield
-Shield of Faith [p.]
-Speak with Animals [p.] [b.]

Level 2

-Alter Self
-Barkskin
-Blur
-Dispel Magic
-Enhance Ability [b.]
-Enlarge/Reduce
-Haste
-Invisibility [b.]
-Lesser Restoration [p.] [b.]
-Mirror Image
-Misty Step
-Protection from Poison [p.]
-See Invisibility [b.]
-Warding Bond [p.]

Level 3

-Blink
-Feign Death [b.]
-Fly
-Nondetection [b.]
-Protection from Energy [p.]
-Remove Curse [p.]
-Spider Climb
-Tongues [b.]

Level 4

-Death Ward [p.]
-Dimension Door [b.]
-Freedom of Movement [p.] [b.]
-Greater Invisibility [b.]
-Polymorph [b.]
-Stoneskin [p.]

Level 5

-Dispel Evil and Good [p.]
-Mislead [b.]
-Treestride [p.]

Level 6

-Heal
-Primordial Ward
-Trueseeing [b.]

Level 7

-Etherealness [b.]
-Plane Shift
-Project Image [b.]
-Regenerate [b.]
-Sequester
-Simulacrum

Level 8

-Clone
-Glibness [b.]
-Mind Blank [b.

Level 9

-Foresight [b.]
-Mass Heal
-Power Word Heal [b.]
-Shapechange
-Timestop
-True Polymorph [b.]
-Wish

I'd like to also make note that many of the arguments for certain spells, such as Cone of Cold or the various smite spells can be disproved:
The issue with AoE is they dont necessarily say that spells with a point of origin necessarily target anything else. However, many argue that if you're affected by a spell than you are [B]a target. In fact, Jeremy Crawford confirmed on twitter that a point of origin isnt the only target when responding to @mverling's question about AoE spell and who they effect. Here's his quote:

"An AoE spell like fireball targets everyone in its area (says "each creatre"). Other spells are selective."

Now, that takes out the possibility of using spells like Cone of Cold and Thunderwave, although Cone of Cold shouldnt work in the first place. The cone comes out of your hands. Which horses do not have, surprisingly. :) Now what about the Smite category? Well... Lets discuss that.

Now say that you're DMing a game and someone casts Ensnaring Strike - which has a range self. No AoE, and much like a smite spell, it requires a weapon attack. So they strike a villainous henchmen and he gets entangled by the vines! Luckily, his villainous overlord decides to cast Dispel Magic as he understands that the henchmen will increase his chances of survival! Would you let him dispel the vines? Im going to assume you let him dispel them? If you did - you just considered the vines part of the spell. So if everything, besides the entangled effect simply being replaced with a damage booster and maybe an additional effect, why would you allow a horse to smite things? Ensnaring Strike even refers to the creature attacked as a target.

If you have any other unanswered questions just let me know. I have a feeling I should expect them! Its a confusing spell and I didnt cover EVERYTHING. I did, however, look at each individual spell. One spell, however, thats not on this list but I still suggest casting on your steed is sanctuary, especially if your DM sticks to the spell description and doesnt allow a higher CR steed, which is understandable.
Another note is that the spell targetting doesnt necessarily have to be your spell for you to decide whether or not it has an effect on the steed. Just has to be compatible with the rules.
On top of all this your steed can't seemingly be replaced after you select it for the first time. So make a careful choice.
Anyway, thanks for reading! Im more than willing to edit, so give me some pointers! It's always appreciated!

[lunaticfringe]

Mounts are terrible, stop being terrible. You get that spell @ 5. Nothing listed as a mount can survive 20 Goblins using their Shortbow which is a legitimate encounter. Mounts do not level up. Ride the Moon Druid.

[TheButterSwan]

True. However, if you dont want to rely on the druid, I'd suggest Revised Ranger (or even just regular Beast Master). That wolf is crazy. However if you want a horse AND independence, than you also want sanctuary. You can get it through Oath of Devotion or Magical Secrets. It does help a ton. Luckily, it also happens to be a level 1 spell.

[tieren]

Keeping the steed alive isn't so important. If it goes down during the fight, resummon it after no big deal.

You might want to ask your DM specifically about Blink before using it as a shared spell, could get awkward if your mount blinks out from under you and you stay.

[Maxilian]

Mounts are terrible, stop being terrible. You get that spell @ 5. Nothing listed as a mount can survive 20 Goblins using their Shortbow which is a legitimate encounter. Mounts do not level up. Ride the Moon Druid.

They are not that bad, if you are using Find Steed they are quite easy to replace, and it basically give me a lot of extra movement and some extra advantages (if you have the appropriate feat) -Their worse enemies are spell casters though-

Note: Also the ability to share spells with it, give it a lot of extra change to finish an encounter alive

Note2: Mounts on casters (mainly Wizard) are quite good, better if you're a small race cause Dogs are quite cheap (Well at low lvls its not that cheap, but you will not lose it as often if you're smart enough)

[TheButterSwan]

Keeping the steed alive isn't so important. If it goes down during the fight, resummon it after no big deal.

You might want to ask your DM specifically about Blink before using it as a shared spell, could get awkward if your mount blinks out from under you and you stay.

I forgot to add that as a point! xD I guess I neglected to add that in. Another thing is some could speculate that if you cast Wish than it'd work with the Steed, but you wouldnt get two wishes. You'd get one and the horse would also get one. Just imagine casting wish while on the mount and on top of that the entire room is just bombarded with carrots! Technically I feel you should only be able to wish for something that only affects you, however, and than it applies to the mount as well. However, it's kind of ambiguous.
CARROTS EVERYWHERE!!!

[Maxilian]

I forgot to add that as a point! xD I guess I neglected to add that in. Another thing is some could speculate that if you cast Wish than it'd work with the Steed, but you wouldnt get two wishes. You'd get one and the horse would also get one. Just imagine casting wish while on the mount and on top of that the entire room is just bombarded with carrots! Technically I feel you should only be able to wish for something that only affects you, however, and than it applies to the mount as well. However, it's kind of ambiguous.
CARROTS EVERYWHERE!!!

I like the idea of the mount casting Wish without knowing, and just have his most inmediate dream come true (Most likely food, though the Find Steed mount is intelligent, so it may also wish for something more... complicated) -Like: I wish my master got a bath more often (And now every day at X hour, a couple of magical hands appear and start washing whoever is riding the mount :P )

[TheButterSwan]

I like the idea of the mount casting Wish without knowing, and just have his most inmediate dream come true (Most likely food, though the Find Steed mount is intelligent, so it may also wish for something more... complicated) -Like: I wish my master got a bath more often (And now every day at X hour, a couple of magical hands appear and start washing whoever is riding the mount :P )

I do too! That could be a weird perk or a nightmare all in one. xD So many options for the DM! Plus, the horse isn't likely to be very specific as it may be an 'intelligent creature' but it also happens to be pretty stupid at a 6 intelligence. Id personally be excited if someone cast wish atop a Find Steed mount while I was DMing, because even if it was told prior what to wish for - that doesnt confirm anything. Intelligence is essentially memory and a horse may just get excited about the fact that it also gets a wish. "I wish for more wishes!" - nothing happens and from than on once a day weird things start happening and noones aware its because of the horse xD... Id be fair and roll to see whether or not it could ever benefit from wish again, but chaos would reign.

[Maxilian]

I do too! That could be a weird perk or a nightmare all in one. xD So many options for the DM! Plus, the horse isn't likely to be very specific as it may be an 'intelligent creature' but it also happens to be pretty stupid at a 6 intelligence. Id personally be excited if someone cast wish atop a Find Steed mount while I was DMing, because even if it was told prior what to wish for - that doesnt confirm anything. Intelligence is essentially memory and a horse may just get excited about the fact that it also gets a wish. "I wish for more wishes!" - nothing happens and from than on once a day weird things start happening and noones aware its because of the horse xD... Id be fair and roll to see whether or not it could ever benefit from wish again, but chaos would reign.

A part of me even wonder if he would understand that he got a Wish, i mostly thing he will, eventually, make a wish without knowing

[TheButterSwan]

A part of me even wonder if he would understand that he got a Wish, i mostly thing he will, eventually, make a wish without knowing

Yeah, no, thatd only be if it was instructed to make one for the caster in my book. A caster that tries to cheese that will see consequences. It is not their wish to make. I was completely agreeing with the idea the horse wouldnt realize otherwise, though... Horses arent really looking out for things like that xD

[Maxilian]

Yeah, no, thatd only be if it was instructed to make one for the caster in my book. A caster that tries to cheese that will see consequences. It is not their wish to make. I was completely agreeing with the idea the horse wouldnt realize otherwise, though... Horses arent really looking out for things like that xD

I don't think a caster could make cheese out of it, i mean... even if the caster somehow, explain to the horse how wish works (I doubt the Horse will understand the explanation), then that means that the caster have to make sure, the Horse make its wish with in a certain way (That will not happen), and then assuming that the horse will actually act as you want in that moment (I mean... out of exctiment he could think "I could wish for a never ending carrot!" -and TADA!, he got a never ending carrot-)

[Mellack]

I just want to point out that the mount from Find Steed is not actually a horse. It is a celestial, fey, or fiend in the form of a horse. I think that would greatly change any wishes it might have.

[TheButterSwan]

I just want to point out that the mount from Find Steed is not actually a horse. It is a celestial, fey, or fiend in the form of a horse. I think that would greatly change any wishes it might have.

So evil sentient carrots? "Dang devil-horse... Always making my carrot farms come all alive and burn down my darn barn. Id take it to the glue factory again if it didnt just keep disappearing all the gosh darn time!"

[Maxilian]

I just want to point out that the mount from Find Steed is not actually a horse. It is a celestial, fey, or fiend in the form of a horse. I think that would greatly change any wishes it might have.

That's true (but in general, i think it would have the normal necessities of a horse), maybe instead of Carrots, it will get... Divine carrots!!! (Or, as the spell says, they are a loyal companion, so maybe, its wish may be something "I wish my master were always happy" -Giving the player a permanent smile :P -

[Feuerphoenix]

That's true (but in general, i think it would have the normal necessities of a horse), maybe instead of Carrots, it will get... Divine carrots!!! (Or, as the spell says, they are a loyal companion, so maybe, its wish may be something "I wish my master were always happy" -Giving the player a permanent smile :P -


Actually they neither have to eat nor sleep nor breath.;)

But one serious question: what does 6 intelligence actually mean? It does understand a language and it can communicate with you but here is the line?

[TheButterSwan]

Actually they neither have to eat nor sleep nor breath.;)

But one serious question: what does 6 intelligence actually mean? It does understand a language and it can communicate with you but here is the line?

That pretty much sums it up. I also believe if someone cast speak with animals on it, it wouldnt work? Ill check. It is actually a nice perk - trust me... You dont want the evil guy knowing how to convince your horse somehow that you two have switched places or something tricky like that. (Never let your horse know common! Give it some weird language so others cant fool it as easily! Sounds weird but could be a legitimate problem. Ive done it as a DM before with a regular mount.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mounts are terrible, stop being terrible. You get that spell @ 5. Nothing listed as a mount can survive 20 Goblins using their Shortbow which is a legitimate encounter. Mounts do not level up. Ride the Moon Druid.
On the other hand, why are 20 goblins all volley-firing at the horse instead of the guy in platemail with the blazing holy sword on top of it? I admit that it's a valid tactic, but it's hardly the only one, and I can't imagine it's one that would-- or should-- be employed very often. Use Shoves instead to unhorse the rider-- that's more cinematic and more fun.

Also, the Mounted Combat feat largely takes care of the survivability problem, since you can take hits for your horse and it gets evasion.

[Waazraath]

Few of the most useful spells to have on the steed as well would be imo:
- Armor of Agathys
- Aura of vitality

The first one, even if the tactic of 'emply the horsy' is employed by enemies, ensures that it lives a bit longer, and if it is targeted in melee that it will do some decent, non action required damage. The second one would give the party a 'fast healing: 2d6' option every round; the mount having an intelligence score of 6, and the rider being in telepathic contact with it, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Any thoughts on this?

[Maxilian]

Actually they neither have to eat nor sleep nor breath.;)

But one serious question: what does 6 intelligence actually mean? It does understand a language and it can communicate with you but here is the line?

They don't need to, but that doesn't mean that they don't enjoy it

[TheButterSwan]

Few of the most useful spells to have on the steed as well would be imo:
- Armor of Agathys
- Aura of vitality

The first one, even if the tactic of 'emply the horsy' is employed by enemies, ensures that it lives a bit longer, and if it is targeted in melee that it will do some decent, non action required damage. The second one would give the party a 'fast healing: 2d6' option every round; the mount having an intelligence score of 6, and the rider being in telepathic contact with it, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Any thoughts on this?

Sadly, Armor of Agathys is Self, but one could argue that the attacker is also a target as it takes damage. It was the most depressing one on this list to lose, honestly. It would help survivability though. Aura of Vitality cast on yourself is pretty nice though, even if your horse doesnt get to be a point of origin. There is a debate about what exactly radius does while on a mount, however, because in a melee situation your attack range is essentially that of your mount's size. This was simply a spell list, but I'll add the found ruling in when I have time to find the ruling!

[JellyPooga]

Sadly, Armor of Agathys is Self, but one could argue that the attacker is also a target as it takes damage.

While you could make that argument, I don't think it holds much water and I think most GMs would allow a Pally to share AoA with his mount. Besides, what could be more badass than being a plate-clad Dark Knight astride his barded Devil-Horse and both of you surrounded by a nimbus of deathly cold, all icicles forming on tack and harness, mount and rider alike? It's something straight off of a Death Metal album cover!

[Waazraath]

I'd allow it. It could be argued, of course, "one could argue that the attacker is also a target as it takes damage.", but unless I see a text somewhere that explicitly states this, I find it more logical that it's a self buff, target self, that has an effect on creatures attacking the target of the spell (in this case, damage them). The caster doesn't target them, when you cast the spell, you don't even know who it will damage (if anybody). But ymmv of course.