Humanoid shape and Dragonfire Adept & Misc questions

[Keral]

Hullo!

I wanted to ask you opinion about humanoid shape invocation of the DFA.

At first I thought it quite cool, because I had in mind Alter self spell. But the more I read about it the more I find it useless. However, everywhere I look it's rated among the most useful invocation of that level.

Thus, I wanted to ask your opinion about it, to see if you could suggest me some use for it, or if I should look for something else (and here I'm accepting suggestions)

Now, while with alter self, I get natural weapons, natural armor and movement speeds; with humanoid shape I get only movement speeds and natural weapons.
Being a Kobold with 8 in str. I doubt any kind of natural attack is going to be of any use to me. The movement might be useful, depending on the situation, but I already Have a flight speed. So again, useless. The only thing that would appeal to me would be an extra thick armor. But it seems I'm not getting it. So what could I possibily use humanoid shape for?


Plus, bonus question, I'm level 9 and my breath weapon dc is 21,5. Since you don't roll decimals, am I to use 21 till next level or can I round it up? :P

[Tiri]

Flight speeds aren't the only useful speeds. There are climb speeds, swim speeds and even burrow speeds, although I'm not sure if any humanoids have those.

It's also useful for disguises.

[Keral]

yeah, I figured that, but I meant something useful in combat. Sorry, I forgot to mention that.

Our campaigns are usually more straightforward. I doubt we'll ever need something like a climb speed.

Disguises are useful sure, but we have a sorcerer with alter self if we ever need to impersonate someone and still, not combat useful.

Which other lesser invocation should I pick? enthralling voice or charm seemed nice until I read that using any of them during combat is basically uselss. So I was thinking voracious dispell, energy resistance?

[Vizzerdrix]

The handbook may give you ideas.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15686.msg276422#msg276422

[Troacctid]

I find dispelling to be extremely useful, so that's the one I usually like to go with.

[Tiri]

Disguises are useful sure, but we have a sorcerer with alter self if we ever need to impersonate someone and still, not combat useful.

Which other lesser invocation should I pick? enthralling voice or charm seemed nice until I read that using any of them during combat is basically uselss. So I was thinking voracious dispell, energy resistance?

Your disguises can last longer than the sorcerer's, though.

Charm isn't useless in combat. You just need to be more subtle than 'Kill your friend'.

Dispelling is definitely more useful than energy resistance.

[Malroth]

Also you can use alter shape to do things dependant on your dragon size like wingstorm.

[Segev]

Does your campaign ever run into trouble because people don't trust the monstrous little kobold in your party? IF so, it's good for that, though yes, a hat of disguise would do as well.

Personally, my favorite use for it is a build designed to turn a white wyrmling or a pseudodragon into a fully "dragon-feeling" PC. Take the race with its attendant LA and HD, then run Dragonfire Adept.

Humanoid Form becomes pretty darned useful at that point, as you can transform from your dragon-form to a human (or demi-human, or humanoid) form, capturing one of the greater dragons' (golds and silvers, in particular) more iconic abilities.

[Fizban]

I find a +6 natural armor bonus a rather significant benefit in combat (that's just a normal Troglodyte, +7 if you're aware that Phaerlocks exist).

[Darrin]

I find a +6 natural armor bonus a rather significant benefit in combat (that's just a normal Troglodyte, +7 if you're aware that Phaerlocks exist).

Try Crucian (Miniatures Handbook) for +8.

[Vizzerdrix]

Try Crucian (Miniatures Handbook) for +8.

Those the crab dudes? Isnt their a turtle like race that goes higher? I thought their was.

[Fizban]

Try Crucian (Miniatures Handbook) for +8.
Feels just a liiiitle too cheesy once you're turning into a turtle with a spell that's clearly meant for disguises, and it slows you down to 20'. It is the highest for humanoids though, unless there's something truly ridiculous I've forgotten.

Those the crab dudes? Isnt their a turtle like race that goes higher? I thought their was.
I think you're thinking of Yurians from Fiend Folio. Hilarious, but only +6 and monstrous humanoids to boot. I'm always forgetting Alter Self can't do monstrous humanoid and wanting to use it for Blackscale Lizardfolk myself.

[Segev]

Feels just a liiiitle too cheesy once you're turning into a turtle with a spell that's clearly meant for disguises

"Clearly meant" is a pretty strong assumption. "Humanoid Form" could have been written to be "disguise self, except tactile senses won't reveal it because you physically morph," but it wasn't. Changelings' racial feature IS written that way. Given that Humanoid Form spells out what it grants, it is difficult to claim that it's meant "only" for disguises if it grants things useful for more than disguising.

[Fizban]

Ah, but this is DnD we're talking about here, where the playtesters didn't even playtest their classes (I'm told the druid's player never once used Wild Shape and actually wielded a Throwing Returning Scimitar in combat). I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the creators didn't realize they'd given away +6 or more natural armor, not with the way AC bonuses are so restricted everywhere else, the same way they didn't realize how ridiculously good any number of other things were.

In fact I just checked the 3.0 version, which confirmed something I hadn't known I'd forgotten: I never thought Alter Self was any good for a long time, and it was because the original 3.0 version specifically did not give you natural armor or weapons. Even more probable someone changed that because it "made sense" rather than because they knew what they were doing.

[Segev]

Ah, but this is DnD we're talking about here, where the playtesters didn't even playtest their classes (I'm told the druid's player never once used Wild Shape and actually wielded a Throwing Returning Scimitar in combat). I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the creators didn't realize they'd given away +6 or more natural armor, not with the way AC bonuses are so restricted everywhere else, the same way they didn't realize how ridiculously good any number of other things were.

In fact I just checked the 3.0 version, which confirmed something I hadn't known I'd forgotten: I never thought Alter Self was any good for a long time, and it was because the original 3.0 version specifically did not give you natural armor or weapons. Even more probable someone changed that because it "made sense" rather than because they knew what they were doing.

There's a difference between "They made an ability and didn't realize how good it was" and "They obviously never intended for it to even grant that kind of bonus." The latter seems implied by "it's intended just as a disguise power." It clearly is NOT intended JUST as a disguise power. You can argue that the fact that that form gives a HUGE bonus is excessive, but not that getting that kind of bonus is not within the power's probable intent...not when the power SAYS it grants NAC.

[Fizban]

I think it's clear after my last post that while I originally said disguises in the quick one-liner post, my meaning was a more general less-ness. And hey, let's look at that 3.0 version (according to this old srd here):

The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin,
fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. The character's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation,
including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and the character's weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected
has wings, The character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, the character can breathe
underwater.
The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack
forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of
the spell. If the character is slain, the character automatically returns to the character's normal form.
If the character uses this spell to create a disguise, the character gets a +10 bonus on the character's Disguise check.
The old version also changed clothing, which 3.5 doesn't (or at least not after errata, not sure about first 3.5 printing). It changes body and clothing, can give you a bad fly speed and underwater breathing with gills if appropriate, and nothing else. I'd say that's pretty clearly a disguise.

[Keral]

I find a +6 natural armor bonus a rather significant benefit in combat (that's just a normal Troglodyte, +7 if you're aware that Phaerlocks exist).

Wait, I AM getting the natural armor then? The description never mentions it, I think, unlike alter self.


Disguises aren't really necessary in our campaign, at least normally. They are rarely useful if we impersonate someone but I've never gotten any problems with me being a kobold rather than an elf, for example.


Wingstorm is an idea, but it says I need the wings from the invocation. And I'm not planning on taking that.

In short, so far, from the way I read the invocation, I get attack modes, movement modes and exterior shape, so to say.
Shape and moves are mostly superflous in our campaign. And I don't think any humanoid shape's attack is ever gonna surpass my breath weapon.

If i do, however, get natural armor, that's another pair of shoes. But you'll have to point out where it says that since I missed it.

Even if I still need to understand what stacks and what doesn't. So far I got 1 from kobold race, 3 from DFA class and 2 from amulet of natural armor. XD

[Fizban]

My apologies, I'm off arguing about Alter Self but Humanoid Shape is not that. Enough mentions of the word "alter" I forgot they were different. Humanoid Shape works off Change Shape, which is this:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.
One of the downsides/upsides of Change Shape (which is rarer than the usual Alternate Form), is that it doesn't affect your natural armor. Good for creatures that already have a lot, bad for creatures that don't. You also don't get any special qualities like water breathing. The only things you gain are movement modes, natural weapons, and extraordinary special attacks. So you can get fly/swim, and stuff like poison or pounce if you can find a humanoid that has it.

Hmm, someone actually dug up this guy recently: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040530a . Useless for Alter Self since it specifically disallows extraordinary attacks, but works with Humanoid Shape. Might be that's why he dug it up in the first place?

[Segev]

I think it's clear after my last post that while I originally said disguises in the quick one-liner post, my meaning was a more general less-ness. And hey, let's look at that 3.0 version (according to this old srd here):

The old version also changed clothing, which 3.5 doesn't (or at least not after errata, not sure about first 3.5 printing). It changes body and clothing, can give you a bad fly speed and underwater breathing with gills if appropriate, and nothing else. I'd say that's pretty clearly a disguise.

Sorry, anything which goes out of its way to specify mechanical abilities you take on beyond appearance is very clearly more than "just a disguise."

[Keral]

The O'bati, well, while interesting in the way the DC increases doesn't seem that interesting, or am I missing something?

A base DC of 10 is low. I'd need to hit almost 10 times in order for it to be decent XD And I'd still need to actually hit which with a 8 str score might not be that easy.

Still, a nice critter in another circumstances.