Pros vs Cons of Two Gish Builds

[Mongobear]

Upcoming campaign restart, and I have decided to play a Gish. However, I really don't know anything beyond the basic idea of what a Gish is. The group isn't known for being the most High-Op collective, so I dont want to blow them out of the waters with something like a DMM:Persist CoDzilla.

I have narrowed down a "simple" Gish build to one of two classes, Duskblade (PHB2) and Battle Sorcerer (UA) + Stalwart Sorcerer ACF (Complete Mage).

With what I know right now, the Duskblade is a better "fighter" and eventually gets full attack Spell Channeling. The Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (SBS) has higher level spells and more options, but is a bit lacking in the actual "fighting" department.

What I would most likely do right now, is take Duskblade to 13, then look into stuff like AbjChamp and/or Eldritch Knight to finish out the 20 level progression, assuming we make it that far. For the SBS, I would most likely do the same thing, SBS into AbjChamp, then who knows what afterwards.

The difference is in what do I actually do with my spells as either build? Duskblade is mostly damage and defense stuff, so I can channel Blade of Blood or other similar stuff through for bonus damage, while using my defensive options to not die. The SBS has a huge list to pull from, and also can attain 9th level spells, so I was debating going for the Arcane Strike feat from Complete Warrior to boost my damage, but really don't know if this is the proper decision.

Any tips/guides for how to build a "simple" Gish without getting into too many shennanigans and High-Op builds?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Duskblades burn spells and spell slots (through Arcane Strike) to deal damage, but they lack in 'real' spellcasting - few buffs, almost no non-combat spells. In that sense, they are almost like initiators.
Sorcerer gishes are more the buff-and-bash type of gish, employing a variety of long-duration buffs, but not really using spells in combat.

Keep in mind that a build involving multiple classes can be very easy to play. For example, a sorcadin uses four classes to fill levels 1-12, but only has sorcerer casting to worry about, because all other class abilities are basically 'add this number to your character sheet, then forget about this ability'.

For gishes, like for most multiclass builds, it's very important to know at what level you're starting. The aforementioned sorcadin doesn't come online until 8th level or so, when you take your first AC level and get third-level spells.

Gishes playable from low levels:
Duskblade is pretty linear (especially for a caster), works at all levels. Mostly damage.
Swiftblade (wiz 6/swiftblade X) plays like a wizard at low levels, you get third-level spells before losing any casting, so you're always capable. Very strong at all levels, and versatile.
Cleric is a great gish just by itself, but you can start with a level in crusader, giving you even more toughness, and later jump into Ordained Champion, Prestige Paladin (1 or 3 levels only), or Ruby Knight Vindicator. Very strong, versatile.
Druid, of course, is very strong at all levels. Very much the easiest gish, as well, provided that you pre-record your wildshaped form(s) on a separate sheet. Don't try to figure the numbers live, that's asking for trouble.
Edit: and Flickerdart (below) is totally right, straight bard is very good.
More edit: psychic warrior or ardent also works as a straight gish.

Mid-to-high-level gishes:
Sorcadin (paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5) is behind in casting, but has great defenses.
Jade Phoenix Mage (wu jen 5/warblade 1/JPM 10) doesn't really get any JMP class abilities until level 7, and the awesome combo (transcend mortality + Emerald Immolation) doesn't become available until 20th. The wizard version is like the swiftblade: plays like a wizard, then loses some casting to become a gish.
Ur-priest: can't start your main casting until level 6, behind on spells until level 10, then skyrockets to power.
More edit: Illithid Slayer and Sanctified Mind gishes work well at mid-high levels. Ardent-based, they work pretty much at all levels, but psychic warrior-based they lose too much manifesting. War Mind-based gishes are like ur-priest based gishes, but a lot weaker (still strong enough, though).

You can also play Unseen Seers as rogue-like gishes, and even Mind Mages (if you really wanted to...), though that relies heavily on persistomancy and shapechanging magic, being mostly independant of the actual base classes you use.

[Flickerdart]

Another great example of a classic gish is straight Bard. Who cares if you have only 6th level spells and 20 BAB? Your songs are there to close the gap.

[Kaje]

I love the duskblade. The problem however is that they get very few spells they can actually channel. I would suggest that once you hit 13 you head into Chameleon. 7 levels of that will give you all the arcane and divine touch spells you could want, leaving your duskblade slots to burn on arcane strike. This is better than abjurant champ, which gives you very little since you have so few abjuration spells, or eldritch knight, which gives you nothing.

[Mongobear]

Is there anything that makes the Stalwart Battle Sorc better than Duskblade? or is that one of those "Gish" builds that we don't really talk about? On paper it seems really good, 3/4s BAB, 1d8+2 hp/level, Light Armor, free Weapon Focus and proficiencies. In exchange for 1 less spell know of your highest level, which I think can be cheesed a bit to make one of the ACFs not as painful, since its to a minimum of 1.

Is there ANY build that SBS works well using?

[Extra Anchovies]

Is there anything that makes the Stalwart Battle Sorc better than Duskblade?

Well, they get spells of up to 9th level from the most powerful list in the game (Sor/Wiz), so there's that. The Duskblade is the single-class channel-based gish, while the SBS is the single-class buff-based gish.


or is that one of those "Gish" builds that we don't really talk about? On paper it seems really good, 3/4s BAB, 1d8+2 hp/level, Light Armor, free Weapon Focus and proficiencies.

SBS is perfectly functional straight out of the can. It doesn't get talked about too much because the PrC-utilizing builds have more to offer in the way of noncasting class features.


In exchange for 1 less spell know of your highest level, which I think can be cheesed a bit to make one of the ACFs not as painful, since its to a minimum of 1.

A Battle Sorcerer who also takes the Stalwart Sorcerer ACF only pays the cost of Stalwart Sorcerer at levels 3 and 20. Not really "cheesed" so much as "working as intended", I'd say. The Dragon Compendium's Bloodline feats also help make up for the lost spells known.


Is there ANY build that SBS works well using?

The best SBS build is SBS 20, because the primary benefits of Battle Sorcerer (average BAB) and Stalwart Sorcerer (extra HP) only apply to Sorcerer class levels, while the costs of both ACFs (reduced spells known and per-day) apply to Sorcerer class levels and to any other classes that advance Sorcerer casting - if you prestige out, you keep paying the costs without continuing to accrue to benefits.

[Mongobear]

Well, here is a more detailed representation of what we are gonna have in the group, as well as the creation limitations we are to build around.

Starting at level 2, rolling stats as normal 4d6b3, and my rolls came out as 17 16 13 13 13 8. We aren't allowed any races with racial HD, but the DM is ok with us using LA Races such as Tiefling/Aasimar and even was fine with stuff as high LA as Half-Ogre and Templates such as Half-Dragon, but there was a catch, any LA we have puts us behind in that we will still acrue XP, but wont make any level progress until we have enough XP to actually be the ECL of whatever LA we have. So, if I was a LA +2 Drow, I wouldnt actually be able to benefit from XP until I had enough to equal a level 4 character (6000 total XP).

Also, alsmot anything published in a WotC book is allowed, with the exception of Setting specific stuff. i.e. Nothing that is specific to Faerun/Eberro/Ravenloft/etc, but any setting neutral book was fair game.

Current party make-up is as follows:

Human Paladin, going Power Attack + 2-Hander route, was mulling over taking Divine Feats to add to his damageoutput, otherwise, I think he was keeping it pretty basic with PrC and build ideas.

Hellbred Archivist, from what I know, he was planning on going into Malconvoker and Thaumaturgist, focusing an the ability to summon gigantic demonic beasts to do the jobs we have to do.

Grey Elf Factotum or Wood Elf Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter, Not entirely sure which way this guy was gonna go, but he was definitely making the skill monkey route. He changed his mind multiple times back and forth between the two, and when it was mentioned about us lacking in a real Ranged combatant, he kind of sided more with the Swift Hunter build.


And then there is me, who will try to balance out the party with the Arcane side of things, as well as a back-up melee combatant. I kind of think I might be in over my head, because I am relatively new to Gishing as an Arcane class, and havent made anything outside of a DMM:Persist CoDzilla in a few years.

Duskblade is sounding like the easiest route, but not having 9th level spells is my one reservation.

Also, since we are starting at such a low level, Duskblade probably will be the most functional the entire time, as opposed to a complicated PrC build which won't come online until 10th level

[A_S]

If you want to play as a Duskblade early, but are worried about not getting high level spells, a good level split could be Duskblade 9/Bard1/Sublime Chord 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5.

It's a long build stub, but it's very simple in play: You're a Duskblade for the first half of your career (and like all Duskblades, get the advantage of actually playing like a gish right from level 1), and then you dip Sublime Chord for good high-level spells (which you can still channel) after level 10.

You can also go Duskblade 13/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5, which gets the super-cool full-attack channel of Duskblade, but only 8th level spells.

[Mongobear]

If you want to play as a Duskblade early, but are worried about not getting high level spells...

*snip*

It's not so much that I dont get high level spells, it's that I dont have access to a real Spell List like Sorc/Wiz or Cleric type spells, able to have utility spells handy for situations that might come up. Duskblade spells are almost entirely Damage dealing or minor defense boosts, I don't get the extremely useful spells that a Sorc/Wiz/Cleric based Gish would.

[A_S]

It's not so much that I dont get high level spells, it's that I dont have access to a real Spell List like Sorc/Wiz or Cleric type spells, able to have utility spells handy for situations that might come up. Duskblade spells are almost entirely Damage dealing or minor defense boosts, I don't get the extremely useful spells that a Sorc/Wiz/Cleric based Gish would.
This is very true, and it's the one Duskblade problem that isn't solved with Sublime Chord.

If utility casting is important to you, I'd second Flickerdart's recommendation of Bard from upthread. It also sounds like Inspire Courage would be extremely good for your party (two people who hit things, and one person who summons guys that hit things).

[Mongobear]

This is very true, and it's the one Duskblade problem that isn't solved with Sublime Chord.

If utility casting is important to you, I'd second Flickerdart's recommendation of Bard from upthread. It also sounds like Inspire Courage would be extremely good for your party (two people who hit things, and one person who summons guys that hit things).

This is one of the ideas I had thought of early on, but ended up deciding against it because I have never enjoyed Bards. I was thinking of Savage Bard (UA) and then taking Snowflake War-Dance and getting to Battle Dancer Boots for some shennanigans, but didnt like how it looked on paper compared to something like a Duskblade or SBS.

[Gruftzwerg]

imho the simplest gish option would be warlock and than focus on either "Eldritch Claws" (feat from DragonM.) or Eldritch Glaive (reach weapon).
Warlock gives access to many 24h selfbuffs (spiderclimb, fly..) which makes playing the gish easy. You don't need to buff up before/in fights and can focus on melee beginning from the 1st round.
At warlock 6 you can pick the fly invocation and make dive attacks (charge) for double dmg with slash/piercing weapon.
Flee the Scene can qualify you for Shadow Pounce ( Telflammar Shadowloard or Crinti Shadow Marauder Prc).

[Eisfalken]

It's not so much that I dont get high level spells, it's that I dont have access to a real Spell List like Sorc/Wiz or Cleric type spells, able to have utility spells handy for situations that might come up.

You can either be a God-wizard or a gish. You really can't be both. Trying to straddle the line, you will suck at both of them and anyone who does just one will outperform you.

If you absolutely refuse to give up "utility", then you have do an optimized gish build. That is non-negotiable. It's not nearly that convoluted, really; it's mostly just prestige-class-dancing after a few basic class entries.

But you need to decide now how to do this and stick to the plan.

Do you want simplistic gish? Bard or duskblade with Arcane Strike and melee feats. Stop trying to be everything; just stick to combat and be good at it.

Do you want to optimize a gish? Duskblade 2 / wizard 4 / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5 / eldritch knight 8 (phantom knight if Eberron is on the table). +18 BAB, 9th level spells just as you hit 20. No Arcane Strike (not enough spell slots), but plenty of choice for spells. Ask if you can have eidetic spellcasting (Dragon #295, IIRC; trades Scribe Scroll and familiar away, you get to "learn" spells in your head like you normally do with a spellbook, but it still costs money to "write" it in your head). Grab Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar if you just have to have one, otherwise stay focused on melee stuff. Done and done on utility. But takes more homework and wheedling the DM. Your choice.

Do you want to God-wizard? Plenty of guides for that (and way too much to get into here).

Pick your path and let's get it done.

[Mongobear]

Is there no path in-between the two? I would probably prefer the Optimized Gish, but because of restrictions placed on the DM as far as PrC allowances, I highly doubt I could "dance" between multiple PrCs without filling them out entire.

Doing the whole AbjChamp + EK thing was already something I had thought about, tacked onto Duskblade 13, but I don't know how that would compare to just straight Duskblade.

In the "Simplistic Gish - Arcane Strike + Melee Feats" all the way to "Uber optimized Gish - PrC Waltz" scale of relative scale, where does something like the Stalwart Battle Sorcerer build rank? Can you give an idea of what would be best to do for that?

Also, the game itself is 3.5, with no Pathfinder allowed. Is there anything in basic 3.5 that isnt completely terrible that compares to the Bloodrager from PF? Basically a "Rage Mage" that doesnt auto-matically make you worse at spellcasting AND fighting just for deciding to do that sort of thing. That is actually something I would prefer using, but I dont know if it exists in 3.5.

[Kaje]

As above, tacking AC or EK onto Duskblade gives you little to nothing. Better to go straight duskblade or find a way to add more spells to your list, like chameleon.

[Flickerdart]

If you want to play as a Duskblade early, but are worried about not getting high level spells, a good level split could be Duskblade 9/Bard1/Sublime Chord 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5.
Sublime Chord requires Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks, Listen 13 ranks, Perform (any) 10 ranks, Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks. You're going to have a devil of a time meeting those prerequisites with just one level of Bard.

[A_S]

Sublime Chord requires Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks, Listen 13 ranks, Perform (any) 10 ranks, Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks. You're going to have a devil of a time meeting those prerequisites with just one level of Bard.
It's easy with Able Learner, or a bit annoying, but still doable with a good Int score and/or the bonus from Human. At worst you have to do something like let Concentration slide for a few levels and then catch up after qualifying.

[Grim Reader]

It's not so much that I dont get high level spells, it's that I dont have access to a real Spell List like Sorc/Wiz or Cleric type spells, able to have utility spells handy for situations that might come up. Duskblade spells are almost entirely Damage dealing or minor defense boosts, I don't get the extremely useful spells that a Sorc/Wiz/Cleric based Gish would.

Consider Duskblade x/Sand Shaper 1. With one of the heritage feats from Dragon Compendium. Or Duskblade x/Mage of the Arcane Order 1. Duskblades in general often make use of Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike.

Duskblade 13/Wyrm Wizard if you can find a list to get Harm off, Fullchannel it and laugh. Or Duskblade 13/Initiate of the Seven veils 7, but that is devilishly tricky to get into.


Is there anything that makes the Stalwart Battle Sorc better than Duskblade?

The sorc/wizard list levels 6, 7, 8 and 9 has many good points for you.

[Flickerdart]

The sorc/wizard list levels 6, 7, 8 and 9 has many good points for you.
The list has many good spells, but the SBS can only learn one spell from each of those levels. And also only one 5th level spell, two 4th, 3rd, and 2nd level spells, and three 1st level spells.

A regular sorcerer is going to be a better gish than a Stalwart Battle sorcerer.

[Endarire]

Another option is full Wizard or Sor casting. Cast polymorph/draconic polymorph/polymorph any object/elemental body/shapechange and you have your 'gish mode.'

Alternatively, Gray Elf Wizard (Abjurer)3/Master Abjurer3/Incantatrix3/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil7/full castingX gets you persistomancy via Incantatrix and immunity to most spells that originate outside your veil from Veil6. It isn't 'hack and cast' as the typical Gish, but gets you full casting (which is a bonus) and does a lot of similar things (hacking and casting without the need for purpose-built magic weapons). I chose Gray Elf for this build due to Faerie Mysteries Initiate - a feat which lets you use your INT mod instead of your CON mod for HP/HD.

Here's prismatic wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm) for reference, which you'd be 'wearing' around you as a Veil.

[Grim Reader]

The list has many good spells, but the SBS can only learn one spell from each of those levels. And also only one 5th level spell, two 4th, 3rd, and 2nd level spells, and three 1st level spells.

A regular sorcerer is going to be a better gish than a Stalwart Battle sorcerer.

Knowstones, Heritage feats, Runestaves, Legacy feats, Drake Helm, Ring of Theurgy, and even some class dips. Once you got level 9 slots, there are many ways to extend your spells known.

[Flickerdart]

Knowstones, Heritage feats, Runestaves, Legacy feats, Drake Helm, Ring of Theurgy, and even some class dips. Once you got level 9 slots, there are many ways to extend your spells known.
You could use less of similar resources to just get the benefits of Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer without the drawbacks. What's cheaper to get?

+6 AB, light armour proficiency, proficiency with two weapons, +4 HP/level

or 18 spells known and 9 spells per day?

[Troacctid]

You could use less of similar resources to just get the benefits of Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer without the drawbacks. What's cheaper to get?

+6 AB, light armour proficiency, proficiency with two weapons, +4 HP/level

or 18 spells known and 9 spells per day?
Battle sorcerer has big advantages at low levels. With the extra proficiencies and more than twice the base HP at 1st level, they're basically in a completely different weight class, stamina-wise.

[Mongobear]

Battle sorcerer has big advantages at low levels. With the extra proficiencies and more than twice the base HP at 1st level, they're basically in a completely different weight class, stamina-wise.

iirc, the math comes out that Battle Sorcerer effectively has a d10 Hit die when combines with Stalwart Sorcerer, 1d8+2 per level plus Con. And also 3/4ths BAB + free Weapon Focus makes their early game attack modifier almost equal to a full BAB class, for a little bit anyways.

Also, I think @Flickerdart might have math'd the spells known/spells per day wrong, I could have sworn they get more because of the wording on each class variant. One of them gets almost entirely ignored because of the "to a minimum of 1" line. I could be wrong thought, AFB right now.

[Zancloufer]

You could use less of similar resources to just get the benefits of Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer without the drawbacks. What's cheaper to get?

+6 AB, light armour proficiency, proficiency with two weapons, +4 HP/level

or 18 spells known and 9 spells per day?

Stalwart and Battle-sorcerer actually don't stack for spells lost except at levels 3 and 20. At every other level you only loose one spells known, so if you where already taking Battle Sorcerer, Stalwart Sorcerer benefits are almost without penalty due to the way that sorcerer spells known table is structured.

Also will second Ruby Knight Vindicator and Bard builds for a Gish that can also do "utility". RKV can be entered with a simple Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RNV X build. Bit of a lul in spell casting at levels 5-6 (so maybe delay the build a level or two if you really need the spell-casting) but otherwise your pretty much a cleric with better BaB and some nice manoeuvres.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am just going to throw this out there.

If you are playing around level 10+ and want to be a casting heavy gish consider

Wizard (or sorcerer) 6 / Ruathar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / PRC x 5

This is a great casting heavy gish that seamlessly and easily folds into abjurant champion without losing a single caster level.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, yes, there's definitely a (minor) benefit at the early levels - but the post I quoted was specifically talking about 9th level spells, so low-level is not relevant to that particular argument.

[gooddragon1]

Another great example of a classic gish is straight Bard. Who cares if you have only 6th level spells and 20 BAB? Your songs are there to close the gap.

20 BAB? Not in 3.5 they don't...

Crystal echoblade is always nice though (sonic damage is rarely resisted).

A nice SRD only gish (imo) is the battle sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 9th level spells, 3/4 BAB, no light armor spell failure, d8 HD.

[Flickerdart]

20 BAB? Not in 3.5 they don't...

I meant 15, but then herped a derp.

[Grim Reader]

You could use less of similar resources to just get the benefits of Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer without the drawbacks. What's cheaper to get?

+6 AB, light armour proficiency, proficiency with two weapons, +4 HP/level

or 18 spells known and 9 spells per day?

You're assuming you want to spend resources on the entire package. Also, you're taking six feats +. One feat is 9 spells known.

A Sorcerer may be a better gish at a certain point in his career (the end of it) But played through the levels he sure ain't. Also, crits happen.

Anyway, the question was what made the SBS a better gish than the Duskblade. Not how it compared to Socerer. I feel fairly confident in the answer "spell levels 6-9". I mean, just Arcane Spellsurge on a gish...


iirc, the math comes out that Battle Sorcerer effectively has a d10 Hit die when combines with Stalwart Sorcerer, 1d8+2 per level plus Con. And also 3/4ths BAB + free Weapon Focus makes their early game attack modifier almost equal to a full BAB class, for a little bit anyways.

Also, I think @Flickerdart might have math'd the spells known/spells per day wrong, I could have sworn they get more because of the wording on each class variant. One of them gets almost entirely ignored because of the "to a minimum of 1" line. I could be wrong thought, AFB right now.

I believe its equivalent to a d12. Average of a d8 is 4.5, d10 is 5.5 and d12 is 6.5. d8 +2 is 6.5

[Fouredged Sword]

A sorcerer gish and a duskblade are two completely different animals. They do not do the same things. Do not mistake them for two ways to get the same result.

A sorcerer gish generally focuses on buffs and melee. The idea is that you can have a character cast really good buff spells and still mix it up in melee when damage is required. You do not need to focus on your casting stat as you will not be targeting saves and can thus focus more on str, dex, and con. Attack spells are not generally advised because you cannot attack and cast at the same time. Better to use your endless amount of sword to solve your problems.

A duskblade is a DPS monster. You do not get much in the way of buffing. You hit things for lots of damage though arcane channeling. In my mind a duskblade isn't really a gish character. Yes they have spells and yes they can mix it up in melee, but I consider them more in line with a barbarian or fighter or even a DPS rogue than a wizard in practical combat. It's all about throwing out stacks of dice at your problems and watching their HP melt away.