Divine Smite Questions

[Draco4472]

Having reread the paladin section of the PHB I saw something alarming with the description of the Divine Smite feature.

"Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage."

Assuming I multiclass a paladin with sorcerer, does this mean I cannot use spell slots gained form the sorcerer class to fuel Divine Smite? I would assume not based on all the threads posted about Paladin 2/Sorcerer X builds, but I would like to clarrify this as I intend to build a Paladorc/Sorcadin for AL use.

[CantigThimble]

In the 5e players handbook errata it specifies that you can use any spell slot.

[Draco4472]

Ah. I'll have to print it off then. Thanks for the reply, my DM will hate me once this build starts to pick up. :smalltongue:

[Arkhios]

Being able to use all spell slots for divine smite is probably the most common and best reason to multiclass into sorcerer. Especially because Sorcerers can create more slots via Font of Magic.

[lunaticfringe]

Being able to use all spell slots for divine smite is probably the most common and best reason to multiclass into sorcerer. Especially because Sorcerers can create more slots via Font of Magic.

Word! Also when you Multiclass Spellcasters you technically don't have Paladin slots & Sorcerer Slots, You have Multiclass Spellcaster Slots. Pact Magic is different though. You have Lock Slots & Spellcaster Slots.

[JAL_1138]

Being able to use all spell slots for divine smite is probably the most common and best reason to multiclass into sorcerer. Especially because Sorcerers can create more slots via Font of Magic.

It's quite good for Valor Bard too, particularly once Extra Attack kicks in. Sorcadin comes out ahead on sustained damage via SCAG cantrips, metamagic, and blasting ability; Smite Skald comes out ahead on support, healing, and skills (and Grappling or Shoving, with Expertise Athletics).

[Arkhios]

It's quite good for Valor Bard too, particularly once Extra Attack kicks in. Sorcadin comes out ahead on sustained damage via SCAG cantrips, metamagic, and blasting ability; Smite Skald comes out ahead on support, healing, and skills (and Grappling or Shoving, with Expertise Athletics).

No denying there. Although, in fact if I had to choose between bard or sorcerer multiclass for Paladin, I would go with Lore Bard, no questions asked. Why?

Expertise (what is there not to like with expertise?)
Jack of all Trades (woo, half-proficiency with Initiative checks!)
Extra Skill proficiencies (I despise paladunces, so I would put them on intelligence and wisdom skills unless I didn't have athletics yet for some reason)
Cutting Words (really nice especially for a defender)
Aura of Protection (a must have), and Extra Attack while getting there.
Early access to Magical Secrets if I chose to go that far into bard (along with Font of Inspiration which gives those cutting words a nice edge, becoming a "per rest resource".)

...and that's only a few benefits I can think of from "Palard".

What comes to slightly less spell slots from a bard compared to sorcerer... well, honestly, I wouldn't spam my slots away with every hit. I would spare my smites for crits.

[Ruslan]

Word! Also when you Multiclass Spellcasters you technically don't have Paladin slots & Sorcerer Slots, You have Multiclass Spellcaster Slots. Pact Magic is different though. You have Lock Slots & Spellcaster Slots.Eventhough Pact Magic slots are different, a Paladin/Warlock can still use Warlock spell slots to Smite, as the errata specifies "any spell slot"

[lunaticfringe]

Yup Yup, all of this is detailed in the Multiclass section of the PHB. I'd post the page #'s but I'm AFB ATM.

[JAL_1138]

No denying there. Although, in fact if I had to choose between bard or sorcerer multiclass for Paladin, I would go with Lore Bard, no questions asked. Why?

Expertise (what is there not to like with expertise?)
Jack of all Trades (woo, half-proficiency with Initiative checks!)
Extra Skill proficiencies (I despise paladunces, so I would put them on intelligence and wisdom skills unless I didn't have athletics yet for some reason)
Cutting Words (really nice especially for a defender)
Aura of Protection (a must have), and Extra Attack while getting there.
Early access to Magical Secrets if I chose to go that far into bard (along with Font of Inspiration which gives those cutting words a nice edge, becoming a "per rest resource".)

...and that's only a few benefits I can think of from "Palard".

What comes to slightly less spell slots from a bard compared to sorcerer... well, honestly, I wouldn't spam my slots away with every hit. I would spare my smites for crits.

You don't get Magical Secrets any earlier with Paladin 6 Lore 14 than with Paladin 2 Valor 18; it's level 12 for both (edit: assuming you start Paladin for heavy armor). And it costs you 9th level spells known and spell+(attack+smite) at Bard 14/character 16. Aura of Protection is a heck of a feature from Paladin though, and Cutting Words is quite nice. The split comes down to whether you want to be a (nearly) fullcaster (down one 7th-level slot from full, 2-level delay on bard spell acquisition) support mage with the option for really good melee damage when you need it, or mostly-a-Paladin with a lot of added versatility.

[Arkhios]

You don't get Magical Secrets any earlier with Paladin 6 Lore 14 than with Paladin 2 Valor 18; it's level 12 for both (edit: assuming you start Paladin for heavy armor). And it costs you 9th level spells known and spell+(attack+smite) at Bard 14/character 16. Aura of Protection is a heck of a feature from Paladin though, and Cutting Words is quite nice. The split comes down to whether you want to be a (nearly) fullcaster (down one 7th-level slot from full, 2-level delay on bard spell acquisition) support mage with the option for really good melee damage when you need it, or mostly-a-Paladin with a lot of added versatility.

Frankly, I don't find any of the Bard's 9th level spells interesting enough to consider them a big loss. Besides, you don't get to learn 9th level spells until 17th class level with any full caster.
Magical Secrets wasn't really my goal/point for taking Lore Bard, it's just an added bonus if I chose to take 6 levels of bard or more. Paladin has a lot of great spells on their list, so I would regret not having at least all 3rd level paladin spells available. The versatility of being able to prepare your spells compared to always the same list is just much better, IMHO. I would much rather have more versatility and only a handful of always known spells.

Plus, I said Early access. Not Earlier access. :smallwink:

[Citan]

You don't get Magical Secrets any earlier with Paladin 6 Lore 14 than with Paladin 2 Valor 18; it's level 12 for both (edit: assuming you start Paladin for heavy armor). And it costs you 9th level spells known and spell+(attack+smite) at Bard 14/character 16. Aura of Protection is a heck of a feature from Paladin though, and Cutting Words is quite nice. The split comes down to whether you want to be a (nearly) fullcaster (down one 7th-level slot from full, 2-level delay on bard spell acquisition) support mage with the option for really good melee damage when you need it, or mostly-a-Paladin with a lot of added versatility.
Your argument is biaised. :)
First in the fact, as you stressed, that you suppose starting Paladin for heavy armor. When Bard / Pal could work very well as DEX.
Second in the fact that you make different splits in both cases, because you assume Extra Attack is wanted in both cases.
But the reason to go Paladin 6 is not Extra Attack, it's Aura of Protection.
If one would go Paladin / Lore Bard, he could also keep it at 2 to be a fullcaster with limited nova capabilities but more importantly better armor and array of spells.
Or he could go Paladin 6 for Aura of Protection somewhere along the way but put priority on Bard because he can grab some good weapon cantrip anyways through Magic Secrets or level 4 feat.

In the end, the reason most goes from Paladin into Lore Bard is because they want to go Paladin 6. So they get Extra Attack from Paladin. So main feature of Valor becomes redundant. But Extra Attack is the bonus here, not the incentive so you can either fasttrack Paladin because focus on tank or make a pause after Pal 2/3 to become a better caster first. :)

Frankly, I don't find any of the Bard's 9th level spells interesting enough to consider them a big loss. Besides, you don't get to learn 9th level spells until 17th class level with any full caster.

Well, it's always a matter of taste after all. But considering the Bard's "offer" at 9th level compared to others, it's golden.
Not only do you get True Polymorph, Foresight and Power Word Kill, but you ALSO learn 2 OTHER 9th level spells from any list, meaning two among Wish/True Resurrection/Meteor Swarm/Time Stop/Prismatic Wall.

So for anyone wanting to play a caster to have fun with 9th level spells, Bard is as good or better as Wizard depending on which ones are wanted. ;)

[Arkhios]

Well, it's always a matter of taste after all. But considering the Bard's "offer" at 9th level compared to others, it's golden.
Not only do you get True Polymorph, Foresight and Power Word Kill, but you ALSO learn 2 OTHER 9th level spells from any list, meaning two among Wish/True Resurrection/Meteor Swarm/Time Stop/Prismatic Wall.

ACTUALLY... Magical Secrets (not counting Lore Bard's additional two at 6th level) are already included into the spells known column. So there isn't that many 9th level spells you can know per sé. You can learn a total of 1 "regular" bard spell from 9th level (excluding replaced spells at each level) + 2 from any list. But, yes. It's a matter of taste in the end.

[JAL_1138]

Your argument is biaised. :)
First in the fact, as you stressed, that you suppose starting Paladin for heavy armor. When Bard / Pal could work very well as DEX.
Second in the fact that you make different splits in both cases, because you assume Extra Attack is wanted in both cases.
But the reason to go Paladin 6 is not Extra Attack, it's Aura of Protection.
If one would go Paladin / Lore Bard, he could also keep it at 2 to be a fullcaster with limited nova capabilities but more importantly better armor and array of spells.
Or he could go Paladin 6 for Aura of Protection somewhere along the way but put priority on Bard because he can grab some good weapon cantrip anyways through Magic Secrets or level 4 feat.

In the end, the reason most goes from Paladin into Lore Bard is because they want to go Paladin 6. So they get Extra Attack from Paladin. So main feature of Valor becomes redundant. But Extra Attack is the bonus here, not the incentive so you can either fasttrack Paladin because focus on tank or make a pause after Pal 2/3 to become a better caster first. :)

Well, it's always a matter of taste after all. But considering the Bard's "offer" at 9th level compared to others, it's golden.
Not only do you get True Polymorph, Foresight and Power Word Kill, but you ALSO learn 2 OTHER 9th level spells from any list, meaning two among Wish/True Resurrection/Meteor Swarm/Time Stop/Prismatic Wall.

So for anyone wanting to play a caster to have fun with 9th level spells, Bard is as good or better as Wizard depending on which ones are wanted. ;)

Aura of Protection was mentioned, which meant Paladin 6 at minimum. You can't get Aura of Protection with any less Paladin. Paladin 6 Lore 14 is the most common split I've seen on the boards here as well. So I compared Paladin 6 Lore 14 (presumably the one Arkhios suggested) and Paladin 2 Valor Bard 18 (the one I suggested). And stated my assumption about the order in which it was taken. Although you're correct, it works well starting with Lore and going Dex. I dodn't account for every single possibility because I'm on a cell phone so typing takes a while and Paladin 6 / Lore 14 starting Paladin is so common in build discussions.

You're right that you can know 5 total 9th-levels at Bard 18. You can pick up 1 at 17, swap a lower level spell for one at 17 as well for 2 total; pick up 2 and swap another from lower level for 3 total at 18, and thus you can know 5 max. This applies even with Lore's Extra Magical Secrets, since those are only swappable on level-up. So yes; True Polymorph, Foresight, and Power Word Kill, and 2 others (e.g. Wish and True Resurrection, or Wish and Time Stop, or Wish and Meteor Swarm. Wish is always going to be one; it's too powerful not to.) So pretty much all the fun and/or exploitable ones, really.

(You could also take a lower-level spell as one of your 18th level Secrets and have Simulacrum, so you can break the game just as thoroughly as a Wizard with infinite Simulacra if you want.)

[JAL_1138]

Frankly, I don't find any of the Bard's 9th level spells interesting enough to consider them a big loss. Besides, you don't get to learn 9th level spells until 17th class level with any full caster.
Magical Secrets wasn't really my goal/point for taking Lore Bard, it's just an added bonus if I chose to take 6 levels of bard or more. Paladin has a lot of great spells on their list, so I would regret not having at least all 3rd level paladin spells available. The versatility of being able to prepare your spells compared to always the same list is just much better, IMHO. I would much rather have more versatility and only a handful of always known spells.

Plus, I said Early access. Not Earlier access. :smallwink:

True enough, it's all a matter of preference. I rather like the bard spell list, and personally prefer the dip as something to make a VB that's still basically a VB but that's now actually worth a dang in melee. It's really hard to go wrong mixing the two ("basically a paladin with a lot of extra versatility" isn't dismissive; it's a really good option, since the Paladin is a great class to begin with. Apologies if the tone came through wrong; text is hard.)

[Citan]

ACTUALLY... Magical Secrets (not counting Lore Bard's additional two at 6th level) are already included into the spells known column. So there isn't that many 9th level spells you can know per sé. You can learn a total of 1 "regular" bard spell from 9th level (excluding replaced spells at each level) + 2 from any list. But, yes. It's a matter of taste in the end.
Yes, I was including spell replacement indeed. ;)

[Arkhios]

Yes, I was including spell replacement indeed. ;)

It seems I was half-asleep when I wrote that... :smallredface:

[Joe the Rat]

...and that's only a few benefits I can think of from "Palard".Palabard? Loradin? Valoradin?

Troubadour!

[JAL_1138]

Palabard? Loradin? Valoradin?

Troubadour!

I also like "Barladin" and "Smite Skald."

[Arkhios]

Palabard? Loradin? Valoradin?

Troubadour!

Lol!
Made my day. Thank you! :smallbiggrin: