Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[Dalebert]

I just discovered Jonathon Strange & Mr. Norell and I'm enjoying it. It strikes me as a wizard vs. sorcerer story. There's a magician who learned from collecting and studying a lot of books on magic and another dude for whom it seems to come naturally. It's on Netflix. Seems like the kind of thing folks here would also enjoy.

[famousringo]

I enjoyed that show a lot. Lots of mysterious faerie stuff, a good plot twist, true love, a complex frenemy relationship at the centre of it all.

Kinda wish there was a second season, but alas, there's no masterpiece novel to base it on (yet).

[MasterMercury]

Ha. I thought this would be a response to the Cleric v Wizard thread going on right now. (Sigh of relief)

[Hungrygnome]

I enjoyed that show a lot. Lots of mysterious faerie stuff, a good plot twist, true love, a complex frenemy relationship at the centre of it all.

Kinda wish there was a second season, but alas, there's no masterpiece novel to base it on (yet).


Actually, its based off a nearly 800 page novel.

[smcmike]

You should read the book, too. I'm enjoying the show so far, but the book is always better.

SPOILERS (book - I haven't finished the show)
They are both wizards, of course, though Strange is very sorcerer-like, and Norrell makes a deal with an arch-fey. Actually, Strange's Italy trip is a bit like a GOO pact, plumbing the depths of madness for knowledge.

[Falcon X]

Kinda wish there was a second season, but alas, there's no masterpiece novel to base it on (yet).
That's sarcasm, right?
The novel is the closest thing in our era to a masterpiece in fantasy literature. And it's the longest book I've ever read, adding a ridiculous amount to the plot from the show.


It strikes me as a wizard vs. sorcerer story.
There is a big yes and no here. Wizardry is substantially different in JS&MN from D&D. First off, BOTH men start through INTELLIGENCE studying, it is just that Strange doesn't close himself off to the Raven King's magics like Norrell does.
Strange's benefit is that he approaches magic intuitively rather than just scholarly. He allows himself to see what's going on around him and he responds to it.
If anything, Strange is a WISDOM based caster, like a druid or cleric, for most of his career as that is the one that implies intuition. However, he begins a CHARISMA path once he starts communing with spirits. Even so, Sorcerer would imply a bloodline which he doesn't have.


Actually, Strange's Italy trip is a bit like a GOO pact, plumbing the depths of madness for knowledge.
This hits the nail pretty close on the head. Great Old One pact is very close to what Strange is doing late-book, implying both a study, a communion of spirits, and a taking of magic into oneself.

Witch might not be too far off of a definition either. There is a communion with nature component to it as well as a formulaic component.

[INDYSTAR188]

What is the title of the book and the show? Sounds compelling, that kinda stuff is right up my ally! I assumed this was going to devolve into a discussion about the number of wizard spells versus sorcerer metamagic options and which is "better".

[smcmike]

What is the title of the book and the show?


I just discovered Jonathon Strange & Mr. Norrell and I'm enjoying it.

..........

[INDYSTAR188]

..........

Are you implying that answers my question? Is the book titled the same as the show? Who writes it? I asked follow up questions for a reason Mike, because I needed more information.

[Falcon X]

What is the title of the book and the show? Sounds compelling, that kinda stuff is right up my ally! I assumed this was going to devolve into a discussion about the number of wizard spells versus sorcerer metamagic options and which is "better".
The title is, in fact "Jonathan strange and Mr. Norrell."

It is an excellent book with something interesting on every page. However, it is very long and slow, so be prepared for it to take a while.
This is the book that taught me about faeries. I always wondered what naturally chaotic and magical beings could look like, and this book explains it.

I've watched part of the show. It's enjoyable. They move around several events from the book and, to me, give it a distinctly darker tone. That and the book is full of side stories, fairy tales, and details that the show can't have.
But those negatives don't detract from a show that is very solid and worth watching in it's own right. Go do so!

[smcmike]

Are you implying that answers my question? Is the book titled the same as the show? Who writes it? I asked follow up questions for a reason Mike, because I needed more information.

My dots weren't meant as an insult, sorry if they seemed that way. Yes, I was implying that by by bolding the title of the book and the tv show I was answering your question, which was the title of the book and the tv show.

The title should be sufficient to find both, and the OP even helpfully included the fact that the show is on Netflix. If you really need more information, you can use Google, or an alternative search engine of your choice, or, heck, a card catalogue, if you can find one.

[INDYSTAR188]

My dots weren't meant as an insult, sorry if they seemed that way. Yes, I was implying that by by bolding the title of the book and the tv show I was answering your question, which was the title of the book and the tv show.

The title should be sufficient to find both, and the OP even helpfully included the fact that the show is on Netflix. If you really need more information, you can use Google, or an alternative search engine of your choice, or, heck, a card catalogue, if you can find one.

I'm sorry if I overreacted, just seemed felt to me like you were being condescending.

Of course I can Google it but we're on a forum to discuss things and this is the topic of this thread. So just like in a different discussion when someone says "away from books right now" and we just roll with it, not giving me the benefit of the doubt (I'm guessing most people here are not stupid)... that's what got me fired up.

I could also Google "stories about wizard v sorcerer" or other stuff if I'm interested in the topic without this thread but like I said... this is the discussion here. Also, when I see things like this written "The novel is the closest thing in our era to a masterpiece in fantasy literature." I get excited and want to know more from a readers perspective.

On a similar note, do you think the book inspired any of the 5E arcana-focused class features (from wizards, sorcerers, warlock bard)?

[smcmike]

On a similar note, do you think the book inspired any of the 5E arcana-focused class features (from wizards, sorcerers, warlock bard)?

Mostly no.

Personally, my favorite part of the book is the way it dealt with fey. You could say that the archfey warlock draws some inspiration there, I suppose - many of the wizards mentioned in the book do sound like they may be better modeled as fey tome-locks.

Magic in novels can be much more interesting and compelling than magic in RPGs, though, so it's hard to find further parallels - magic can remain something mysterious in novels, and part of the story arc can be discovering the rules of magic. That doesn't work so well in an RPG.

Also, if you really want to sum up the aesthetic of the book, this quote does it:

"'Can a magician kill a man by magic?' 'I suppose a magician might,' he admitted, 'but a gentleman never could.'"

Not exactly compatible with D&D.

A similar book, thematcially: The Night Circus.

[Willie the Duck]

On a similar note, do you think the book inspired any of the 5E arcana-focused class features (from wizards, sorcerers, warlock bard)?

As much as I like the book, I think its greater influence thus far starts and stops with the Netflix show.

I think all the lego blocks which make up the wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, and bards was has all been there in the previous editions. Some of the actual decisioning (granting metamagic to sorcerers instead of wizards or all spellcasters, why include wild magic sorcerers in the core book and Favored Soul only in UA thus far) could have gone this way or that, and I suppose everything the designers were exposed to at the time did influence them. Still, everything that ended up there was already in the thoughtspace since at least mid 4e, if not earlier.

[famousringo]

That's sarcasm, right?
The novel is the closest thing in our era to a masterpiece in fantasy literature. And it's the longest book I've ever read, adding a ridiculous amount to the plot from the show.


I haven't actually read the book, but my understanding was that the first series covered until the end of the book. If that's not the case, then I eagerly await a second season of the show.

[smcmike]

As much as I like the book, I think its greater influence thus far starts and stops with the Netflix show.

I think all the lego blocks which make up the wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, and bards was has all been there in the previous editions. Some of the actual decisioning (granting metamagic to sorcerers instead of wizards or all spellcasters, why include wild magic sorcerers in the core book and Favored Soul only in UA thus far) could have gone this way or that, and I suppose everything the designers were exposed to at the time did influence them. Still, everything that ended up there was already in the thoughtspace since at least mid 4e, if not earlier.

I agree, though it should be noted that the book predates 4e by several years.

[Falcon X]

I haven't actually read the book, but my understanding was that the first series covered until the end of the book. If that's not the case, then I eagerly await a second season of the show.
Ah, and sorry for a blunt response. There is not a second book and the author seems to be one who would feel that another book might corrupt the mystery of the first one.
There is already, Ladies of Grace Adieu (https://www.amazon.com/Ladies-Grace-Adieu-Other-Stories-ebook/dp/B002UM5BUU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1475862407&sr=8-2&keywords=ladies+of+grace), which expands on several of the footnote stories, but is not a full novel.

I do not believe there might be a direct sequel, but there could be stories in the same world such as a theoretical fourth era of magic (Aureate, Argentine, Current, future). Such a thing would such a remarkable book to blend faerie magic into modern or even future worlds.



On a similar note, do you think the book inspired any of the 5E arcana-focused class features (from wizards, sorcerers, warlock bard)?
Quite unlikely. Dungeons and Dragons has been established as it's own type of magic for too long to allow JS&MN to give much influence. The 5e writers were too concerned with bringing together all the best qualities of editions 1-4 to start adding in outside flavor.
(I say that, but since Lovecraft recently went Public Domain, they allowed it to creep back in a little)
The only real possibility would be in the Fey-pact Warlock. However, works such as Dresden Files would be just as likely to have been the influencer.

So, what HAS Jonathan Strange influenced?
Understanding of that which we already have in fantasy.
I run anything fae differently not that I have read that book. I understand the idea of "talking to the trees and rocks" much better. I understand the Wizard's drive for books and knowledge. I also prize little side-stories building towards a whole more.