Fay vs Elves and what is the Seelie and Unseelie Courts?

[bookkeeping guy]

So if you look at any fey or fae (however version you want to spell it) creatures and sooner or later you see a mension of Seelie and Unseelie Courts mentioned.

Then you also have different types of elves too and a whole bunch of shapeshifter fey and others.

But how do you logically fit them in with each other? Granted there are many fey races like sprites, nymphs, changelings, etc....the list goes on. And I would guess elves are on the edge of that tree....

But at some point the elf trey would branch into the fey tree. And I'm not sure how you would explain what Seelie and Unseelie Courts are? ( I'm guessing one is the good and one is the bad? ).

There are all kinds of ways this could open up various campaigns to use etc.

Could use a little help with fitting them together. :)

[Sun Elemental]

Nothing I've read in 3.5 and PF showed an elaborate, detailed and well thought out system of elf and fey government. I might have missed things. But still...

Fey are not humanoids and elves aren't fey. As much as elves seem capricious and magical to men, so too are fey to elves. Elves would not want to be governed by mysterious creatures of dew and light, fey couldn't stand be governed by boring, mortal tree-men. They probably couldn't even have a joint government.

In 4E, elves ARE fey. The blonde, blue eyed eladrins, I mean. The brunette, brown eyed guys are still nonmagical, mortal elves. There's probably a sourcebook that details their government extensively. But 4E changed a lot of things, and I am not an expert on 4E.

Seelie is the Summer Court, which is more 'good' as seen by mortals, because it inspires life and healthiness. Unless you anger them, then they'll inspire diseases, parasites, cancer or forest fires.
Unseelie is the Winter Court, which is more 'bad', because winter kills stuff, and people don't like admitting it's a natural part of the cycle of life.

If you want some slick inspiration, read the Dresden Files. There aren't elves, but the fey receive a great deal of characterization, summer and winter alike. You see the inherent paradox, they are immortal(?) creatures with great magical power and keen insight into the minds of others. Conversely, they are so trapped in their systems of honor that they are biologically incapable of breaking a promise or lying, even if it kills them. They also can't keep up with 20th/21st century technology, although this might not be a weakness in most D&D campaigns.

Mostly tho, do what feels cool as a DM. If you want help, ask your players.

[Gemini476]

The definite reference for the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, of course, is Scottish folklore. ("Seelie" is where we got the word "silly", apparently.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

*Looks at title*

What is my aunt Fay doing fighting elves?

Unless you mean 'fey'? Because my aunt shouldn't be fighting anyone at her age, even pansy elves.

[Zaydos]

Folk lore the Seelie v Unseelie difference was as far as I can tell (mostly introductions in books of Irish folklore) a matter of current intent. Sure there were typically seelie fae but they could be unseelie as well, and both were dangerous.

Resources I'd suggest:
Irish Folk Lore.
The Dresden Files
Poul Anderson's The Queen of Air and Darkness and the Broken Sword

As for elves and the fae court... they don't fit well with default fluff because the writers took a peg, forced it to be square, and then attempted to shove it into a round whole.


*Looks at title*

What is my aunt Fay doing fighting elves?

Unless you mean 'fey'? Because my aunt shouldn't be fighting anyone at her age, even pansy elves.

No, unlike the writer of the Monster Manual they know what words mean.

Fey (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fey): 1
a chiefly Scottish : fated to die : doomed b : marked by a foreboding of death or calamity

2
a : able to see into the future : visionary b : marked by an otherworldly air or attitude c : crazy, touched

3
a : excessively refined : precious b : quaintly unconventional : campy

Fay (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fay): fairy, elf

(got to scroll down to the 3rd word fay)

Fae also works. Fey is something completely nonsensical because the writer of the MM couldn't spell properly.

[Gemini476]

Oh yeah, Fae are Celtic while Elves are... what, Nordic? Although Tolkien grabbed in some of the Fae as well, I think (the whole Mirkwood party sequence in the Hobbit is clear enough), and to muddle things even further D&D's elves are more Poul Anderson than Tolkien (hence them being Chaotic Good.)

[TheifofZ]

Slightly more in depth breakdown of the Fae.

Fae are spirits of a realm different from the mortal world.
The fairy realm, the Courts, etc. Dozens of names for it, and that's before you go into different languages.
The important things to know about fae on their own:
They are magical beings with thought processes similar but wholly different from our own; they are not descended from a bunch of hairy apes whose primary concerns are the next meal and the next mate. Instead they're timeless beings that are distinctly 'Other'.
A Fae cannot break a promise or tell a falsehood directly, but these spirits are capable of making pretzels out of what you thought was a straightforward statement, and can out-loophole the best lawyers in the world. Never take a Fae's words at face value, never make a promise or a request, and be careful.

And finally, as to the courts:
Seelie, the Court of Spring and Summer, of Beginnings, Life, Light, Flame, and in the Eternal Hunt, they are Prey. Just because they sound nice, though, doesn't mean they actually are.
Do remember that Life means more than just 'human life.' it means ALL life. The lives of insects, plants, and yes, diseases of all kinds, including things like the Black Plague.
Light Is Not Good is a statement for a reason too, and while warmth brings life, if the temperature goes too high, you get horrible burns, wildfires, and droughts. Finally, Prey can be just as dangerous as Predator. A deer's antlers are not just decoration.
Seelie are just as dangerous as Unseelie.
Unseelie, the Court of Autumn and Winter, of Endings, Death, Darkness, Frost, and in the Eternal Hunt, they are Predator. Just because they sound bad, though, doesn't mean that's all they are.
Death is more than just an ending; it balances life and keeps things from stagnating.
Darkness is no more Evil than light is good; darkness hides things and scares us, but it also grants places to hide and can protect us. And while frost can kill, there are plenty of kinds of life that need frost to thrive.
And of course, if you think predators are all bad, then remember that if Prey went uncontrolled, you'd be up to your eyeballs in rodents. (Also remember that dogs and cats are predators too)

[Thurbane]

There's a series of articles in the WotC website that deal with fey, seelie and unseelie courts, and their politics (in 3.X):

Fey Feature Archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey)

...and in particular: Seelie and Unseelie Courts (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20021213a)


The Seelie Court

" . . . the single assumption which makes our existence viable -- that somebody is watching . . ."

-- Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

People tend to think of fey as lovely creatures of almost unearthly beauty and grace. This image epitomizes the fey of the Seelie Court. Many artists and bards, both fey and other, have striven to capture the beauty of the Seelie Court. Most have gone mad; none have truly succeeded. Pure manifestations of nature and beauty, the members of the Seelie Court view themselves as the pinnacle of perfection. This elitist attitude restricts status in the court to only pure-blood fey. A court fey can trace his or her lineage back several millennia, showing nothing but true fey (no templates, no transformations such as from the monk class or various prestige classes, and no other creature types by blood or breeding).

Fey high society and the fey realms, be they on the Plane of Faerie or fey high-society enclaves on the Material Plane, contain the only creatures whose opinions matter. Politics thrive in this elitist environment. Seelie fey form cliques and factionalize amongst themselves. In the endlessly politicking and gossiping world of the Seelie Court, status can be won by hosting guests (willing or unwilling) or attracting followers with great skill in a craft or performance art.

Seelie Court fey occasionally tolerate the company of beautiful or gifted creatures, preferring those of fey, elven, or celestial blood. These "court friends" may provide companionship and amusements, but only those with pure lineage may hold positions of importance.

Admittance to the Seelie Court for outsiders is extremely rare, even more so if the outsiders are not of pure fey blood. Upon entrance to the court, visitors must be prepared with valuable and unusual gifts for the Queen of Light, or they might find themselves lost in an endless hedge maze. Suitable gifts for the Queen include figurines of wondrous power, gems of brightness, and magical jewelry.

The physical appearance of the Seelie Court mirrors nature, to which the fey are intrinsically linked. White ash trees, strong and stately, with their branches intertwining to create a living ceiling, line the throne hall like marble columns. Gossamer streamers of iridescent blues, pinks and purples wind their way through the boughs. Phosphorescent flowers gleam like lanterns amidst the treetops. Semi-precious jewels of amethysts, tiger's eyes and topaz decorate flowers that float down the waterways lining the path to the throne. Statues carved of gold and adorned with gems further attest to the wealth and beauty of the current ruler, as each queen must display more splendor than the previous one or risk the gossip and scorn of her subjects. The throne itself, a and queen who sits on it, are the focal points of the room. The throne of the Seelie Court is shaped like a large ice dragon, as brilliantly cold and glittery as the fey nobility.

Queen Tatiana and King Oberon are the current rulers of the Seelie Court. An undisputed beauty, Tatiana looks unfavorably upon female courtier or visitors whose appearance rivals hers. This attitude is caused, in part, by the occasional wanderings of King Oberon's affection.

The Seelie Court fey find the Unseelie Court fey absolutely repellent.

The Unseelie Court

"Blood is compulsory."

-- Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

Unlike the selective, restrictive Seelie Court, the Unseelie Court welcomes anyone and everything with even a drop of ancestral fey blood. Fey can and do breed with anything, creating odd, mixed creatures. Most species consider the offspring grotesque monsters. The mutant creatures gravitate towards the Unseelie Court, which welcomes them and gives them an environment where peculiar physiologies and abilities are the norm.

The Unseelie Court is a more hospitable place for non-fey as well. Court nobles eagerly provide patronage for creatures who are extremely strong, dexterous, clever, beautiful, or talented. Obtaining the sponsorship of a court noble is not without its rewards, nor without its dangers. For instance, a gifted bard whose playing impresses a fey nobleman might be invited to his castle as a guest. Once there, the bard will be feted and asked to play every night -- and never be permitted to leave.

Ruling over all these oddities is the Queen of Air and Darkness: a fey of unsurpassed beauty and grace. The Queen of Air and Darkness has no current consort and no surviving children. The court is rife with gossip and political maneuvering as each noble curries the queen's favor in the hopes of being named the royal heir.

Outsiders not of fey blood are rarely admitted to the Unseelie Court. Visitors must be prepared with unusual and powerful gifts for the Queen, or they might find themselves the quarry of a nightmarish hunt. Suitable gifts for the Queen include figurines of horrific power, gems of darkness, and cursed jewelry. (Details on the figurines of horrific power and gems of darkness will appear in a future fey column on the Wizards website.)

After a millennia of indiscriminate breeding, the physical appearance of the Unseelie Court mirrors the macabre. Twisted columns, trees forced into unnatural growth by royal gardeners, are scattered haphazardly through the hall. Curtains of shadows hide blood-soaked alcoves. Drawn back for times of celebration, the gaping crevasses reveal uninvited guests captured for the amusement of the court. Riotous blooms of nightshades and blood warts glow red in the evening, providing a maddening light to the misshapen court. The throne of the Unseelie Court is shaped like a great shadow dragon, a creature of midnight and darkness, like the queen herself.

[khadgar567]

Slightly more in depth breakdown of the Fae.

Fae are spirits of a realm different from the mortal world.
The fairy realm, the Courts, etc. Dozens of names for it, and that's before you go into different languages.
The important things to know about fae on their own:
They are magical beings with thought processes similar but wholly different from our own; they are not descended from a bunch of hairy apes whose primary concerns are the next meal and the next mate. Instead they're timeless beings that are distinctly 'Other'.
A Fae cannot break a promise or tell a falsehood directly, but these spirits are capable of making pretzels out of what you thought was a straightforward statement, and can out-loophole the best lawyers in the world. Never take a Fae's words at face value, never make a promise or a request, and be careful.

And finally, as to the courts:
Seelie, the Court of Spring and Summer, of Beginnings, Life, Light, Flame, and in the Eternal Hunt, they are Prey. Just because they sound nice, though, doesn't mean they actually are.
Do remember that Life means more than just 'human life.' it means ALL life. The lives of insects, plants, and yes, diseases of all kinds, including things like the Black Plague.
Light Is Not Good is a statement for a reason too, and while warmth brings life, if the temperature goes too high, you get horrible burns, wildfires, and droughts. Finally, Prey can be just as dangerous as Predator. A deer's antlers are not just decoration.
Seelie are just as dangerous as Unseelie.
Unseelie, the Court of Autumn and Winter, of Endings, Death, Darkness, Frost, and in the Eternal Hunt, they are Predator. Just because they sound bad, though, doesn't mean that's all they are.
Death is more than just an ending; it balances life and keeps things from stagnating.
Darkness is no more Evil than light is good; darkness hides things and scares us, but it also grants places to hide and can protect us. And while frost can kill, there are plenty of kinds of life that need frost to thrive.
And of course, if you think predators are all bad, then remember that if Prey went uncontrolled, you'd be up to your eyeballs in rodents. (Also remember that dogs and cats are predators too)
I cant connect nurgle and titania in same picture one is fae responsible for life other is chaos god responsible for life this does not compute even in vauge sense kaboom!

[TheifofZ]

I cant connect nurgle and titania in same picture one is fae responsible for life other is chaos god responsible for life this does not compute even in vauge sense kaboom!

Remember that the two are from separate systems with entirely separate concepts of life, tone, and general theme.

Also remember that Grandfather Nurgle is the Chaos God that represents the cycle of life and death; It'd be both Titania and Mab to balance the scale.

[gkathellar]

The definite reference for the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, of course, is Scottish folklore. ("Seelie" is where we got the word "silly", apparently.)

This guy's got it in one. Seelie/silly fairies aren't exactly harmless, but they're the sort of fairies that like to play pranks and jokes, and are occasionally helpful, and are generally alright sorts. Unseelie/unsilly fairies, well ... uh, well there's your bridge trolls and your dullahan and your child-abducting goblins and the monsters that find you alone in the forest and eat you.

As to elves, this gets complicated in part because elves hail from a totally different mythology. The Norse alfr are a mythological race of immortals, not unlike the aesir (gods) and vanir (another tribe of gods). Where aesir were mighty and vanir were wise, alfr were skilled and knowledgeable in all sorts of crafts and magic (incidentally, "dwarf" comes from dvergr, who were in mythology usually synonymous with the svartalfr, or "dark elves"). There was of course cultural cross-pollination, as comparisons between willowy immortals from different regions are somewhat inevitable, but Tolkein really codified elves as we imagine them today by mixing Norse, Old British, Gaelic and Christian folklore.

"Fairy" in general is a bit of a complicated idea, especially as it appears in D&D, where mythology tends to get lumped together based on general feel and atmosphere. AFAIK, all the word really designates is a supernatural being from a particular region of the world, with attendant characteristics. We tend to see it as referring an ambiguously defined class of humanoid nature spirit, though. Nymphs, for instance, are Greek immortals, not fairies of the British Isles, but for D&D purposes, they're fey.

[Thurbane]

By the way, is anyone aware of a 3.5 build for the Queen of Air and Darkness? I'm thinking Feytouched (?) Sorcerer X/PrC X, CR 20?

[digiman619]

By the way, is anyone aware of a 3.5 build for the Queen of Air and Darkness? I'm thinking Feytouched (?) Sorcerer X/PrC X, CR 20?

It depends on which incarnation of her you're using. If you use the Dresden Files version as your inspiration, she probably has a few divine ranks.

[Garktz]

I once saw somewhere on this forums that the main difference between Seelie and Unseelie feys is that the first kind wants to play with your soul and the other wants to play with your guts....

The first kind enjoy messing with mortals fate because they think of us as a "sims" game where the manipulate as they see fit
The second kind enjoy watching how mortals tear appart each others and justsee us like a toy to play bloody and violent games...

I liked that fluff and like to stick to it without being really sure how true it is

[Jowgen]

There is, as others have stated, not that much RAW info on the topic, and I find that the info presented doesn't always quite fit together. For one there is the question of who rules the courts.

The fey feature articles, in accordance with 2e, tout Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness as the heads, although outside of them, only the QoAaD really gets mentioned IIRC. But then there is also Queen Morwel, who rules the Eladrin exemplars from the Court of Stars in Arborea, and is also sometimes touted to be the queen of the Fey.

I personally think that your best bet at getting a coherent canon is to look at the LeShay, in the Epic Level Handbook.

[TheifofZ]

I once saw somewhere on this forums that the main difference between Seelie and Unseelie feys is that the first kind wants to play with your soul and the other wants to play with your guts....

The first kind enjoy messing with mortals fate because they think of us as a "sims" game where the manipulate as they see fit
The second kind enjoy watching how mortals tear appart each others and justsee us like a toy to play bloody and violent games...

I liked that fluff and like to stick to it without being really sure how true it is

IIRC, this is exactly wrong.
Both sides will manipulate and toy with human lives just because; its just the exact 'how' and 'when' that changes based on court.

[Zaydos]

I'm also going to note wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifications_of_fairies#Seelie_and_Unseelie_Cou rts)'s little 2 paragraphs matches what I've gotten about the Seelie and Unseelie courts in folklore except I've seen them mentioned in books of Irish folk lore and don't know I quite agree with the 'ah it reflects Norse elf division' bit. Especially as the citation is a Merriam-Webster encyclopedia of world literature instead of a book on myths.

To sum it up, though. A Seelie fae will warn you when you're being an ass once, and will pull a prank on you that is harmless to fae but might very well get you killed ('the arrow wasn't cold iron I didn't know it could kill a human'). If you're familiar with Rip Van Winkle it's an American version of a common archetype often assigned to fae which if the courts are brought in are Seelie fae. They don't mean to ruin Rip's life they just party with him because dude wants to party, no their fault that dude doesn't know fae parties take 20 years. Similarly the story of Thomas the Rhymer includes a Seelie fae (the Queen of the Faeries) who blesses a storyteller with prophecy and the inability to lie, i.e. the most ironic punishment you can give a storyteller.

Unseelie fae are more likely to straight up gank you.

Edit: Also I feel the need to point out that Seelie/Unseelie didn't become commonly used in D&D till 3.x where the writers were the most slap a name on it who cares if it resembles the source thus far (2e tended to be the best about it, 1e has its... Gygax's sometimes odd and self-inconsistent takes on things).

[Mith]

A fun twist I have done in my setting build is use a Seelie/Wyld/Winter division as Jim Butcher does in the Dresden Files, but put Corellon in as the King of the Seelie Court, Obad-Hai as the Wyld Lord, and Lolth (renamed Lillith) as Queen of Air and Darkness. It fits well in my head, especially with the idea of the High court before the division into three being before the falling out between Corellon and Lolth.