Question on how to rule a specific house-ruled effect (infinite-looping space)

[Dachimotsu]

So, here's the deal. I'm designing a 5e campaign (a standard one that takes place in the Forgotten Realms), and I've got this scenario where there are two warring factions: humans and orcs. Pretty simple so far, right? Well, the humans have a magic item that allows them to specify a cube-shaped area, even one as big as a battlefield, and warp space to make it loop infinitely in all horizontal directions. An orc standing alone in the middle of the affected area would be able to look ahead and see the back of another orc that looks just like him, or look behind himself to see another orc that looks like him looking behind himself.

The looped area is defined by clear, straight lines that are so thin, they're nearly invisible, but which can't be moved. The box in which space loops cuts off objects like trees (not literally) so that they don't line up at the edges, making where the loop begins and ends obvious to the observant. For example, say you were editing a Minecraft map in a 3rd-party program, and you picked one chunk (a 16x16xinf square section). Now make every other chunk in the world an exact duplicate of that chunk. Now imagine that your avatar exists in every chunk at once, and any change to one affects all the others simultaneously. Meh, I think you get the idea.

Now, when the spell is in effect, nothing outside of the area is affected. Only creatures that were inside the area at the time can wander endlessly. But here's the BIG question:

What does the affected space look like from the outside?

Do other creatures see what's going on in the looping space, watching as that pitiful orc walks to the right, suddenly appears at the left, and then keeps walking right? Can other creatures enter the space, seemingly appearing out of nowhere to the orc and being subjected to its power from that point forward? Or does the spell make a copy of the space and warp its inhabitants to the infinitely-looping copy in a pocket dimension?

And just as an added side-detail, the answer that makes the most sense lore-wise is preferred. If inapplicable, then the answer that is most beneficial to the human army is preferred.

[Aelyn]

Technically speaking, the entire space should appear to be filled with perfect darkness - the light can't escape it either, after all. Maybe make it just look like an unusually-sized area of magical darkness?

So say that someone's looking at it from a short distance and that letters represent part of the landscape, with E being the affected area:

Viewer > ABCD[]
Everything after E is blocked by the magical darkness.

Another option would be to have it look like the area just doesn't exist. There's a weird distortion that gives you a migraine if you try to look at it too closely, as a mind isn't equipped to cope with distorted space.

Viewer > ABCDFGH...
If the viewer thinks about it, they realise E was missing, saves v Int (DC as the character who cast the distortion or Stunned for 1d4 rounds in confusion)

If you want to handwave line of sight somewhat, how about everything appears normal up the the space, but then everything beyond that is a copy of the space? So like this:

Viewer > ABCDEEEEE...

Just three alternatives to consider :-)

[malachi]

I'd say that this isn't going to work out well without hand-waving some physics.

If creatures/objects/light can enter the cube from the outside, then the boundary of the cube is going to have a superimposed image of what is outside the cube and what is inside the cube.
So if the terrain looks like this (B2 is the cube, all cubes of terrain are 1 square mile for simplicity's sake):
A1 A2 A3
B1 B2 B3
C1 C2 C3

Then, from the inside, the east border of the cube is going to look like B2 and B3. The light from B3 is going to be moving west through the cube, so it is going to hit the east border of the cube and bounce around to come back through the west border of the cube.
The net result is, if you are standing at the west border of B2, you'll see this:
1st mile: B2 only
2nd mile: B2 (appropriately shrunk for being a mile away), superimposed over B3 (i.e. B2+B3, looking like its 2 miles away)
3rd mile: Everything seen in the 2nd mile appropriately shrunk for being a mile further away, superimposed over B4. (i.e. B2+B3+B4, all looking like its 3 miles away)
4th mile: Everything seen in the 3rd mile, superimposed over B5 (i.e. B2+B3+B4+B5, all looking like its 4 miles away).

And that's only if you're looking exactly due east, ignoring all of the light that's going to be moving south-east or north-east (which are going to be similarly superimposed, but possibly with more superimpositions than due east - I can't quite decide what it's going to look like).

An additional issue is for anything that is half-in and half-out when the cube goes up. Lets say that a tree has a thick trunk and branches going off all over the place, and is perfectly bisected by a flat edge (not a corner) of the cube. Since we've determined that things can enter the cube, the portion of the tree that is outside the cube is going to feel the natural forces of connection to the parts of the tree that are inside the cube (molecular and cellular bonds). However, things can't leave the cube, so what forces will the half of the tree that is inside the cube feel? As far as it can tell, there is empty space on just the other side of it - so any if its sap is going to flow out into the air and dribble down its side, just as if the tree was cut in half. The tree will have suddenly lost half of its roots and trunk and thus have a center of gravity that isn't directly over its base. It will probably start to lean towards the border of the cube (which means it will be cloned over to the other side, rather than push back against the half of the tree that isn't in the cube). If you don't think that'll happen, then lets just say that an orc gets angry seeing that he's trapped in here and starts shoving on the tree to push it over the border. Now, what happens to the half of the tree outside the cube? Since things can't leave the cube, it can't feel the force of its other half leaning/being pushed, so that means that it is going to feel a force differential and lean into the cube - but then you have a tree entering the cube in the exact same spot where there is a tree already - or portions of tree entering the cube and being magically not connected to anything so they fall to the ground (and thus, anything that enters the cube is going to be instantly disintegrated).

There are some problems here, apparently, if we try to allow things to enter the cube.


So lets say that things can't enter the cube. The first, very apparent issue, is that you didn't get the sun stuck in the cube so it would be completely dark.
So we'd have to make the horizontal edges up to a certain height and depth impermeable, but make the top portion (and possibly the bottom) permeable. That still ends up with cutting things permanently in half if they were straddling the edge, but at least you'll have light (if its during the day) and air.




If the cube is permeable from the outside, then I'd say make it perfectly dark - as it would capture light, but not emit any. The cube walls would look like something perfectly dark (which is different than something that is perfectly black, as even that would reflect light and you'd be able to focus on one part of it or another). Anything that moved against it would disappear from sight.

If the cube is impermeable from the outside, then you can make it look like whatever you want to, but it would definitely look opaque. Depending on what you like, it could be a perfectly smooth mirror, magically show what's on the other side (either showing complete emptiness where the cube is (which would allow you to see into the exposed dirt that got caught by the cube) or just act like a video monitor for what would be seen on the other side (which would cause some visual disturbances, sort of like when you see something half-way through a magnifying glass) ), some solid opaque color, some opaque pattern (either moving or not moving), or whatever else. In all of these cases, you also need to decide how much friction the surface has. Given magic and perfectly straight lines and whatnot, it would very likely be perfectly frictionless - but you should probably give it exactly the same friction coefficient that you would give to a wall of force.

If it acts like a video monitor for what would be on the other side, you could also have it simply act as teleportation from one side to the other. DO NOT DO THIS. Reason:
Imagine a square creature, composed of 4 tiles:
12
34

This creature needs blood to flow from one tile to each of its adjacent tiles in order to not die.
What happens if we move this square creature such that tile 4 moves south into the north-west corner of the magical cube such that tiles 1, 2, and 3 are not teleported?

12
3aaaaB
_aaaa
_aaaa
_aaaa
B4

Blood flow between tiles 2 and 4 works as normal, because the blood gets teleported fine. However, blood flow between tiles 3 and 4 is disrupted. Blood flowing from tile 3 gets magically teleported out the west side of the magical cube, while blood flowing from tile 4 just pumps out onto the ground. (See the graph. 'a' tiles are the magical cube. 'B' tiles are blood NOT entering the creature like it needs to. '_' tiles are added because the forum deletes leading whitespace from lines because it doesn't like my majest masterpieces of magnificent art)

If the creature, out of pain, did something stupid like then moving a little bit to the east, we end up with this:

_12
Baaaa3
_aaaa
_aaaa
_aaaa
B4B

So just... don't make the exterior of the magical cube teleport things. For the sake of our poor, poor square creatures.

[malachi]

Technically speaking, the entire space should appear to be filled with perfect darkness - the light can't escape it either, after all. Maybe make it just look like an unusually-sized area of magical darkness?

So say that someone's looking at it from a short distance and that letters represent part of the landscape, with E being the affected area:

Viewer > ABCD[]
Everything after E is blocked by the magical darkness.



This works fine. It could also just be any opaque appearance (why not bright orange?)



Another option would be to have it look like the area just doesn't exist. There's a weird distortion that gives you a migraine if you try to look at it too closely, as a mind isn't equipped to cope with distorted space.

Viewer > ABCDFGH...
If the viewer thinks about it, they realise E was missing, saves v Int (DC as the character who cast the distortion or Stunned for 1d4 rounds in confusion)


Why would it make someone stunned?
It would basically be like there was a video monitor set up, or a huge magnifying glass. That's not really 'stunned into confusion' worthy.



If you want to handwave line of sight somewhat, how about everything appears normal up the the space, but then everything beyond that is a copy of the space? So like this:

Viewer > ABCDEEEEE...

Just three alternatives to consider :-)

Physics says that that wouldn't work (the light has to be completely trapped within the magical cube for it to appear with normal clarity to the people inside it). But physics also has issues with magic in general, so that shouldn't stop you!

[Aelyn]

This works fine. It could also just be any opaque appearance (why not bright orange?)
It could be, with an extra magical effect. I was just thinking how this would look by "default".

Why would it make someone stunned?
It would basically be like there was a video monitor set up, or a huge magnifying glass. That's not really 'stunned into confusion' worthy.
Well, the stunning isn't strictly necessary. I was thinking how the corners would look and came to the conclusion the answer was "weird" - an arrow in flight, for example, would appear to change direction spontaneously, and the ground would change in a subtle but noticeable way without a clear delineation.

Remember, a video monitor in the real world has less-than-perfect resolution and a physical border, both of which act as ways for our mind to identify the point where the effect begins. This might not have either of those flaws. Plus we're used to monitors - do you really think a medieval soldier wouldn't stare at one in wonderment, at least for a moment?

Anyways, it's more an excuse for the oddness to have a mechanical impact. It's just a game idea :-)

Edit: For clarity's sake, I intend this only to apply to people who are comparatively surprised by it - seeing it for the first time or having it suddenly and unexpectedly.appear in front of them. Soldiers who are used to it would just dismiss it as "that weird magical effect"


Physics says that that wouldn't work (the light has to be completely trapped within the magical cube for it to appear with normal clarity to the people inside it). But physics also has issues with magic in general, so that shouldn't stop you!
Totally agreed, it was supposed to be a "Physics doesn't work that way" option suited to a world where magic works. It's like how, in a Harry Potter fanfic I've read, the main character discovers that broomsticks use Aristotlean physics (where things stop without a force acting on them, a given force can only bring something to a particular speed etc) rather than the Newtonian physics (where things carry on without a force acting on them and a given force will continue to accelerate something). We know it wouldn't work that way, but if that's what makes sense to the mage who created it...

[Douche]

So, from the inside it would look like you're in a box with mirrors on all 6 sides? Or, rather, 5 sides... Sounds like the ground is just the ground.

As for the outside, have you ever seen Interstellar?


https://images.rapgenius.com/7a2dc85dcfaf10de6d9d1a41faaa396c.485x201x1.png

I would imagine it looks something like that, where you're seeing a distorted view of infinite "dimensions" all at once. Tiny slices of the same image, infinitely repeating.

[Zorku]

You should be able to see into the space for lore reasons. From the various petrification-gaze attacks to Superman's X-Ray vision, a lot of magic and myth uses a backward model for what sight is; you're seeing things because something leaves your eye to go 'touch' the rest of the world.

Going with this concept the cube should look like an infinite tunnel from the outside. Any time you look into it there is the same result that you get from the interior perspective: an infinite array of the back of that orc's head (except sometimes he's facing differently.)

e: If you decide on not-seeing into it, then you could have a very slowly fading ghost image of what was inside of it, until the surface goes black. I can't see that interstellar image on this computer, but my understanding of black holes is that anything entering that space appears to slow to a halt right at the edge, thanks to time dilation, and then over time the image of it gradually smears at that boundary, rather than block the way for other objects to enter.

In terms of tactics, the humans can benefit quite a bit from the infinite battlefield with entry allowed, and quite a bit without it allowed. If entry is allowed then one of the primary behaviors they try to employ is leaping in to sink a knife into the back of any opponent that gets near the edge, or, if the terrain permits this and they have the appropriate tools, they'll largely want to stay out of it while they get a large force to rush into a small area, then somehow lob boulders through the tightly packed crowd, or burn them, or pump acid in, etc.

The no-entry option is probably better story telling, as this turns into somewhat of a force multiplier for the side that has better armored and better trained soldiers (In some ways acting like a guard tower, in some ways the opposite of it.) Assuming they've got fairly precise control over it they are able to divide enemy forces into more manageable chunks, especially when they put the cube in areas that are difficult to bypass. Now some squad of knights bashes in the skulls of, probably a smaller opposing number of orcs, cancels the cube, then redeploys it again, shaving off just a thin line of orcs to butcher, and so on until the horde is dead or decides that they don't want to deal with this. Limitations on how they can deploy the cube can result in fighting much riskier battles, but still generally allowing the squad of knights to isolate a much smaller group of orcs than they would have otherwise fought.

The old show Reboot comes to mind for this, where a cube drops down from the sky to make everyone caught in it play out a life-or-death game.

[Contrast]

Why would it make someone stunned?
It would basically be like there was a video monitor set up, or a huge magnifying glass. That's not really 'stunned into confusion' worthy.


Stunning effect makes sense to me if you want to run the space as suddenly vanishing/being undetectable. Imagine scanning your eyes across the horizon looking for this large battle you were coming as reinforcements for. Suddenly one point seems to stretch away to infinity...and then bam you find yourself looking 10 miles to the right of where you were a second ago for some reason. The stunning is just your mind failing to correctly process the impossibility of what its seeing (or part of the magical defence).

[pwykersotz]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would it look any different than normal to an outside observer? Basically all you're doing here is Thinking with Portals™. The only weird thing in outside observation would be when the creature crosses the threshold of the loop, and then you either get a view of their insides, or else that cutoff point is merely blacked out since light isn't truly hitting the person's insides.

[Zorku]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would it look any different than normal to an outside observer? Basically all you're doing here is Thinking with Portals™. The only weird thing in outside observation would be when the creature crosses the threshold of the loop, and then you either get a view of their insides, or else that cutoff point is merely blacked out since light isn't truly hitting the person's insides.

Depends on how light works, and how permeable the space is to external things. Going with real world light physics the light can't get back out of the space (photons aimed at your eyes hit a portal first, and are teleportal'd the the opposite side.

Moreover it's an unusual case with portals because you have to pay attention to the front vs back surface of the free floating portal. Front (inside) surface works like a standard portal, but the back surface (outside) does not (*as the options were for things to enter that space or to be stuck outside of it, not to teleport past it.)

After that you're down to the question of "how do the physics of the fantasy world differ? (Other than allowing this kind of magic in the first place.)

[Dachimotsu]

Hey, everyone. Sorry I haven't posted in my own topic yet.

Anyway, to address some concerns, the way light "works" with this spell, is that the infinite looping version of the affected space simply copies the lighting of the original. So if the original space has a cut-off tree that provides shade, then adjacent copies of the area won't share that shade . That is to say, light remains a constant in all copies of the space, and only changes when the original does.

In that way, I guess this means that light would, in fact, have to penetrate the affected space, which means other forms of energy (and therefore matter) should, as well.

[pwykersotz]

In that way, I guess this means that light would, in fact, have to penetrate the affected space, which means other forms of energy (and therefore matter) should, as well.

An unsuspecting party could find themselves walking straight into the loop! Evil genius. :smallbiggrin:

[Zorku]

Hey, everyone. Sorry I haven't posted in my own topic yet.

Anyway, to address some concerns, the way light "works" with this spell, is that the infinite looping version of the affected space simply copies the lighting of the original. So if the original space has a cut-off tree that provides shade, then adjacent copies of the area won't share that shade . That is to say, light remains a constant in all copies of the space, and only changes when the original does.

In that way, I guess this means that light would, in fact, have to penetrate the affected space, which means other forms of energy (and therefore matter) should, as well.

That's hardly thinking with portals at all!

This seems to create problems, because you would now expect (modern physics-)eyes to see what's outside of the cube space, but just find themselves teleported when they try to leave the space. Not really the infinite hall of mirrors thing we all took it to be.

A good alternative, I think, would be for this to be impenetrable to light, and instead the top face of the cube emits some slightly muted magical light- much like the Sun shining through a cloud. Shadows still exist, but everything is only just bright enough for day vision to still apply. If you want to include the possibility of using this in dark areas then the brightness of the magical light might be based on what light is hitting the top surface.

With the myth-eye model that I proposed, external light entering the cube does not break the hall of mirrors effect.