Trying to make some sort of gish-monk for a webcomic

[danielxcutter]

Well, the title says most of it, but I'll elaborate; I have plans for an OotS-style comic like Murphy's Law or Our Little Adventure, and I'm trying to make one of the protagonists a human gish-monk. One without psionics: the MC is going to by a Psychic Warrior.

Here are the ones I find appealing:

-Monk/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist

Pros: Instant casting, Greater Mighty Wallop, touch spells used as part of full attacks, ray spells into touch spells, Diamond Soul(yummy SR)

Cons: No 9th-level spells, fewer spells known, rather serious MAD.

-Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist

Pros: Diverse amount of spells, huge amounts of powerful touch spells, great BAB, can apply Wisdom AC even wearing light armor, less MAD, better spellcasting.

Cons: Can't use touch spells during a full attack unless it's already charged up, most powerful Sacred Fist class features are one use per day, might have to restructure the party again(less important than others), Code of Conduct is kinda annoying(can't you carry weapons as part of your load and no more?).

-Monk/Druid/Sacred Fist

Pros: as the Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist, except less touch spells and better natural weapon buffs.

Cons: also as Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist, plus alignment is limited to LN(not really that important, though).

Extra: would really like to trade animal companion and wildshape away.

Any ideas? Personally I'm leaning towards divine magic, but if you manage to get 9ths with arcane magic without wizard levels(already a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster in party) then that might work too.

[A.A.King]

If you say it is for a Webcomic, does eventual access to Ninth-level spells really matter? At what 'level' would you like to start this comic and how much of this character do you already know? I would imagine that a character you envision as a Enlightened Fist doesn't fit personality wise with Sacred Fist.

Anyway, if you want an Arcane Monk then Wizard 4 / Monk 1 / Enlightened Fist 10 / Abjurant Champion 5 ends up with 9th level spells and "Carmendine Monk" gets online a lot quicker than "Ascetic Mage".

[Extra Anchovies]

The Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) and deadly hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) ACFs are probably worth looking at, because they trade out wild shape and the animal companion. Since the deadly hunter gets "AC bonus (as monk)" and "fast movement (as monk)", I'd say the deadly hunter druid levels would stack with monk levels for those features.

[danielxcutter]

The Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) and deadly hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) ACFs are probably worth looking at, because they trade out wild shape and the animal companion. Since the deadly hunter gets "AC bonus (as monk)" and "fast movement (as monk)", I'd say the deadly hunter druid levels would stack with monk levels for those features.

Hmmm, not bad, but you can't use spells when raging, and the deadly hunter loses armor proficiency. Having one type of ability(magic) disabled when using another(raging) seems a little messy, and Sacred Fist can apply Wisdom AC even while wearing light armor, so that class feature's less than nothing with the deadly hunter variant. There is an ACF that's caught my eye: Aspect of Nature. The Endurance, Agility, Vigor, Flight, and Speed variants have decent synergy with monk abilities, especially at druid level 8 when Agility and Vigor can be combined to get a +4 bonuses on Strength and Dexterity. It replaces wildshape, and it fits more with the character than turning into an animal. Still need an animal companion replacement, though.

On a side note, should I bother with either Bracers of Striking or Necklace of Natural Weapons? Druids do get Superior Magic Fang, but I need clarification if it stacks with the non-enhancement bonuses I can add to those items. Don't worry, both allies and enemies are going to get lots of magical items too, so there's no need to worry about balance that much.

[eggynack]

I like aspect of the dragon from dragon magic more than aspect of nature. Better duration, more unique abilities. Probably the best animal companion ACF is beast spirit from shifter druid substitution levels. Going shifter might also work with your overall monkish concept. I'd avoid the shifter wild shape trade though, despite the fact that that's a thing you're looking for. It's so awful. Also, going back a step, why do you care about armor and shield proficiencies? Isn't that kinda opposed to the whole monk thing you're going for? If it's so important to you, just use (greater) luminous armor. My handbook has a bunch of neat stuff too, including stuff on every druid ACF out there.

Edit: I know you're presumably not going overly optimal on this one, but if it's a thing you care about, superior magic fang is awful. Just use greater. And, if you still need short term buffs, bite of the were X should suffice.

[Eisfalken]

Go for fighter 1 (possibly sneak attack variant from UA, and/or ditch tower shield prof for something like gnomish battle cloak for "cool" points) / battle dancer 1 / sorcerer 4 (get the spell shield ACF so you can burn spells to resist damage) / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5 / eldritch knight 8. Feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Arcane Strike (burn spell slots to get better attack/damage), Superior Unarmed Strike (progresses your unarmed strike damage), then whatever (probably best to get Extend and Persist metamagic for longer buffs). You definitely want greater magic weapon and greater mighty wallop for your fists; after that, it's whatever, but make sure to get some good abjurations for combat defense (which will synch very nicely to ab-champ). I wouldn't bother with a familiar unless you just really need to have it here.

Gear is standard gish stuff, but weapon is always going to be a necklace of natural weapons from Savage Species. It's just too good. You actually should also get greater magic fang with permanency if you can actually find a 20th-level druid. Get a permanency scroll with 1500 XP in it first, then get the druid to cast the spell for +5 enhancement to unarmed strike, then lock it down with the scroll, done and done. This means the necklace never needs to be higher than a +1 just to get other weapon abilities on the table for it. Get eternal wands for long lasting or utility stuff (endure elements, knock, unseen servant, etc.)

This build still can't get 9th-level spells (without using scrolls, staves, etc.); that's the price you pay for "needing" it to be an unarmed attack monk guy. But you do get +18 BAB (which is a touch over benchmark), and even if they strip you of all gear down to your underwear, you're still highly dangerous due to spells boosting your unarmed strike attacks, which is honestly pretty cool.

Hope this helps out.

[danielxcutter]

Go for fighter 1 (possibly sneak attack variant from UA, and/or ditch tower shield prof for something like gnomish battle cloak for "cool" points) / battle dancer 1 / sorcerer 4 (get the spell shield ACF so you can burn spells to resist damage) / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5 / eldritch knight 8. Feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Arcane Strike (burn spell slots to get better attack/damage), Superior Unarmed Strike (progresses your unarmed strike damage), then whatever (probably best to get Extend and Persist metamagic for longer buffs). You definitely want greater magic weapon and greater mighty wallop for your fists; after that, it's whatever, but make sure to get some good abjurations for combat defense (which will synch very nicely to ab-champ). I wouldn't bother with a familiar unless you just really need to have it here.

Gear is standard gish stuff, but weapon is always going to be a necklace of natural weapons from Savage Species. It's just too good. You actually should also get greater magic fang with permanency if you can actually find a 20th-level druid. Get a permanency scroll with 1500 XP in it first, then get the druid to cast the spell for +5 enhancement to unarmed strike, then lock it down with the scroll, done and done. This means the necklace never needs to be higher than a +1 just to get other weapon abilities on the table for it. Get eternal wands for long lasting or utility stuff (endure elements, knock, unseen servant, etc.)

This build still can't get 9th-level spells (without using scrolls, staves, etc.); that's the price you pay for "needing" it to be an unarmed attack monk guy. But you do get +18 BAB (which is a touch over benchmark), and even if they strip you of all gear down to your underwear, you're still highly dangerous due to spells boosting your unarmed strike attacks, which is honestly pretty cool.

Hope this helps out.

Probably going to go with the monk/druid/sacred fist combination now, but that's not too bad - I think I'll use part of your idea for a secondary character. Exactly how, I'm not sure yet, but at least one other character is going to comment on all those gish PrCs. Probably on the lines of "I know we use lots of PrCs in this comic, but that's overkill". :smallbiggrin:

[animewatcha]

Where does it say that sacred fist can keep wis to ac in light armor? I see a slight ac progression as the class levels chart, but no mention of keeping monk WIS to ac.

[Eisfalken]

Probably going to go with the monk/druid/sacred fist combination now, but that's not too bad - I think I'll use part of your idea for a secondary character. Exactly how, I'm not sure yet, but at least one other character is going to comment on all those gish PrCs. Probably on the lines of "I know we use lots of PrCs in this comic, but that's overkill". :smallbiggrin:

If "too many PrCs" is really that big a deal, you can do this with just eldritch knight. It basically goes sneak attack thug fighter 1 / battle dancer 1 / sorcerer 8 / eldritch knight 10. But it's technically slightly worse: +16 BAB, still just 8th-level magic, so it actually is below the gish benchmark (due to no 9th's). In addition, it lacks ALL of the abjurant champ abilities, pretty much every one of which is at least somewhat useful to a gish.

If high level spellcasting stops being as important, you can do this with just battle dancer 1 / duskblade 19. Only disadvantage is you'll be without greater mighty wallop until 15th level, and it takes Extra Spell feat to get that one spell. It still may be worth it; you only have to cast it once for long-term duration and lots of damage output (duskblades have full caster level advancement; when you get GWM at 15th, you'll increase your fist damage by three size levels, which stacks on top of Superior Unarmed Strike).

And better still, duskblade doesn't need some ungodly Int score. 15 gets you your max spell level. Wis is practically dump there (Fort and Will are good saves for duskblade), and even Cha can go out the door (none of your skills are social, so you just won't be party face anyway). Str isn't necessary due to Arcane Strike and your spells since your damage output is entirely based on use of magic. Basically, once you have Int 15, it's all Con (and maybe a point or two for Dex).

Finally, the battle dancer / duskblade build can wear a lot of armor. The only class feature you lose from battle dancer doing this is the "Cha to AC" bonus, and since you should have dumped Cha... yeah. Get astral driftmetal breastplate; mithral full plate is a bit much for this kind of build, but once you can cast in medium armor, the astral driftmetal applies AC to incorporeal attacks, meaning you don't need mage armor, and you can stack up enhancements/abilities on there. Make it githcraft for both style and that nifty little Concentration bonus.

[danielxcutter]

Where does it say that sacred fist can keep wis to ac in light armor? I see a slight ac progression as the class levels chart, but no mention of keeping monk WIS to ac.

Drat.:smallannoyed: Failed a Spot check there.

[danielxcutter]

If "too many PrCs" is really that big a deal, you can do this with just eldritch knight. It basically goes sneak attack thug fighter 1 / battle dancer 1 / sorcerer 8 / eldritch knight 10. But it's technically slightly worse: +16 BAB, still just 8th-level magic, so it actually is below the gish benchmark (due to no 9th's). In addition, it lacks ALL of the abjurant champ abilities, pretty much every one of which is at least somewhat useful to a gish.

If high level spellcasting stops being as important, you can do this with just battle dancer 1 / duskblade 19. Only disadvantage is you'll be without greater mighty wallop until 15th level, and it takes Extra Spell feat to get that one spell. It still may be worth it; you only have to cast it once for long-term duration and lots of damage output (duskblades have full caster level advancement; when you get GWM at 15th, you'll increase your fist damage by three size levels, which stacks on top of Superior Unarmed Strike).

And better still, duskblade doesn't need some ungodly Int score. 15 gets you your max spell level. Wis is practically dump there (Fort and Will are good saves for duskblade), and even Cha can go out the door (none of your skills are social, so you just won't be party face anyway). Str isn't necessary due to Arcane Strike and your spells since your damage output is entirely based on use of magic. Basically, once you have Int 15, it's all Con (and maybe a point or two for Dex).

Finally, the battle dancer / duskblade build can wear a lot of armor. The only class feature you lose from battle dancer doing this is the "Cha to AC" bonus, and since you should have dumped Cha... yeah. Get astral driftmetal breastplate; mithral full plate is a bit much for this kind of build, but once you can cast in medium armor, the astral driftmetal applies AC to incorporeal attacks, meaning you don't need mage armor, and you can stack up enhancements/abilities on there. Make it githcraft for both style and that nifty little Concentration bonus.

I'm not saying there's a real problem, it's just that it makes good material for a joke.

[danielxcutter]

I like aspect of the dragon from dragon magic more than aspect of nature. Better duration, more unique abilities. Probably the best animal companion ACF is beast spirit from shifter druid substitution levels. Going shifter might also work with your overall monkish concept. I'd avoid the shifter wild shape trade though, despite the fact that that's a thing you're looking for. It's so awful. Also, going back a step, why do you care about armor and shield proficiencies? Isn't that kinda opposed to the whole monk thing you're going for? If it's so important to you, just use (greater) luminous armor. My handbook has a bunch of neat stuff too, including stuff on every druid ACF out there.

Edit: I know you're presumably not going overly optimal on this one, but if it's a thing you care about, superior magic fang is awful. Just use greater. And, if you still need short term buffs, bite of the were X should suffice.

Yeah, I misread the AC bonus Sacred Fists get. Still, there's not too much that helps me. All the good ACFs require much higher levels in Druid than the character will ever get to use properly. Especially the alternative animal companions, which get stronger with Druid level - and as a result suck as much as the normal animals. Deadly Hunter and Urban Companion sound worth looking into for this build. After all, neither wild shape nor animal companion will be very useful. Okay, wild shape is really useful, but it's not the flavor I'm looking for, and a hummingbird sounds far better than a riding dog with only about 8 to 9 levels.

And superior magic fang really does suck. Bite of the WereXXX is way too powerful, though.

EDIT: And yes, that really is less of a handbook and more of a mini-encyclopedia.

[eggynack]

All the good ACFs require much higher levels in Druid than the character will ever get to use properly.
Still kinda like the idea of doing the whole beast spirit thing. You get a few solid bonuses even from relatively few levels. And also, you get to toss an occasional natural weapon onto your build if you want it.


And superior magic fang really does suck. Bite of the WereXXX is way too powerful, though.

It's a good set of spells. Wouldn't consider it especially overpowered though. Or, perhaps I wouldn't consider it especially overpowered in the context of overall druidry. You can cast bite of the weretiger, or you can cast control winds. Latter is a lot more interesting. Also, the baseline alternative here is still greater magic fang. That's a really good spell, and superior's poor position relative to it is part of why superior is so bad.


EDIT: And yes, that really is less of a handbook and more of a mini-encyclopedia.
And it just keeps right on growing.

[danielxcutter]

Still kinda like the idea of doing the whole beast spirit thing. You get a few solid bonuses even from relatively few levels. And also, you get to toss an occasional natural weapon onto your build if you want it.

1) I'm trying to make a character that uses druid magic to back up close combat in general, not a druid with monk abilities. 2) If I remember correctly shifters don't get either druid or monk as a favored class. 3) While the Necklace of Natural Weapons does enhance natural attacks, the big problem is that it only does so for types determined at creation, so unless you make it so that it enhances the shifter forms too then it's not going to be as useful.


It's a good set of spells. Wouldn't consider it especially overpowered though. Or, perhaps I wouldn't consider it especially overpowered in the context of overall druidry. You can cast bite of the weretiger, or you can cast control winds. Latter is a lot more interesting. Also, the baseline alternative here is still greater magic fang. That's a really good spell, and superior's poor position relative to it is part of why superior is so bad.

Bite of the Wererat, Bite of the Werebear, and Bite of the Wereboar can stack to give some ridiculous stat bonuses - Wild Shape is actually less overpowered in my opinion. And if you haven't already guessed it yet, I'm kinda trying to nerf the druid part so it doesn't break the story over its knee. For example, :vaarsuvius: banned Conjuration, which is probably the worst school to ban after Abjuration, and :durkon: doesn't put enough focus into his divine casting compared to his melee abilities - yet V contributed more than everyone else put together(except maybe :belkar:) during the Battle of Azure City, while Durkon outright banished Sabine while deafening the rest of almost the entire Linear Guild with one Holy Word. Is there any reason why I shouldn't let the Bite series be used much, if at all? Control Winds is a different story, of course, but I just really don't like spells that give you such high numerical bonuses, as compared to spells that have useful effects.


And it just keeps right on growing.

May it always teach just how powerful the wrath of nature can be.

[eggynack]

1) I'm trying to make a character that uses druid magic to back up close combat in general, not a druid with monk abilities.
Yeah, but the sub levels work fine with that. A lot of the abilities are just general upgrades, with the casting upgrades often working well with the monk. Only stuff that doesn't exactly transfer is the summoning stuff, and you won't even get a bit of that if you don't go all the way to level six in pure druid. And, y'know, you could always have some summoning on occasion.


2) If I remember correctly shifters don't get either druid or monk as a favored class.
True, apparently. Those rules are dumb. Not sure what the build looks like in terms of level count, but that issue can plausibly be avoided.


3) While the Necklace of Natural Weapons does enhance natural attacks, the big problem is that it only does so for types determined at creation, so unless you make it so that it enhances the shifter forms too then it's not going to be as useful.
It's not gonna be a massive power upgrade, having some natural attacks. It's just a normal upgrade. You get to toss a couple of claw attacks onto the end of the attack routine.



Bite of the Wererat, Bite of the Werebear, and Bite of the Wereboar can stack to give some ridiculous stat bonuses
They all provide a bunch of enhancement bonuses. They don't really stack at all, beyond the fact that you get the highest stat of each spell.


- Wild Shape is actually less overpowered in my opinion.
Gotta say, your opinion is wrong. The spells provide great bonuses, but they're limited bonuses. Wild shape grants every movement mode, great vision modes, and versatile attack styles, and it offers all those things all the time. Bite only gets the direct attack and defensive stuff, and only if you take a turn out of every combat. Part of what makes wild shape so great is that a lot of what I just said interacts so well with casting. You take demodu hunting bat form, and suddenly you're flying around with high AC and initiative, tossing spells every which way, with all combat to cast those spells. And that's normal wild shape. Get some forms from elsewhere and you can break the game utterly.


And if you haven't already guessed it yet, I'm kinda trying to nerf the druid part so it doesn't break the story over its knee. For example, :vaarsuvius: banned Conjuration, which is probably the worst school to ban after Abjuration, and :durkon: doesn't put enough focus into his divine casting compared to his melee abilities - yet V contributed more than everyone else put together(except maybe :belkar:) during the Battle of Azure City, while Durkon outright banished Sabine while deafening the rest of almost the entire Linear Guild with one Holy Word. Is there any reason why I shouldn't let the Bite series be used much, if at all? Control Winds is a different story, of course, but I just really don't like spells that give you such high numerical bonuses, as compared to spells that have useful effects.

From a webcomic perspective, I'd think the bite spells may have an advantage, in terms of not overpowering things. It's not like enemies are going to die way before you plan for them to. Something like control winds alters the entire face of the battle, and by extension, it alters the tactics a character could plausibly bring to bear. To wit, if a character has control winds, they should cast control winds, and if they cast control winds, then suddenly the entire combat is defined by control winds. Bite just makes you hit harder and take more damage. A character could cast those all day without changing the narrative. Because, yes, Vaarsuvius did ban conjuration, but it was because teleport changes what stories can be told, not because wall of stone acts as a somewhat more versatile wall of force. Things are dangerous, both in games themselves and in stories about those games, where the fundamentally change what is possible. Bite spells don't do that.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but the sub levels work fine with that. A lot of the abilities are just general upgrades, with the casting upgrades often working well with the monk. Only stuff that doesn't exactly transfer is the summoning stuff, and you won't even get a bit of that if you don't go all the way to level six in pure druid. And, y'know, you could always have some summoning on occasion.

Monk 1 or 2/Druid 9 or 8/Sacred Fist 10 means that if I was planning to use that then it might work. However...


True, apparently. Those rules are dumb. Not sure what the build looks like in terms of level count, but that issue can plausibly be avoided.

The problem is that I'm going to be using those dumb rules. Yes, those rules are dumb, but I don't really want to use too many house rules now. Plus this build is still really powerful even without Wild Shape or Animal Companion. Remember, Sacred Fists have full BAB, and Greater Magic Fang functions fabulously for fists.(Yes, I did that on purpose.)


It's not gonna be a massive power upgrade, having some natural attacks. It's just a normal upgrade. You get to toss a couple of claw attacks onto the end of the attack routine.

I was implying the opposite: most of the necklace bonuses won't apply on the extra natural weapons. Also...


They all provide a bunch of enhancement bonuses. They don't really stack at all, beyond the fact that you get the highest stat of each spell.

And those highest stats are way too high even if you use one of them, which is what I was trying to say but must have gotten messed up somehow.


Gotta say, your opinion is wrong. The spells provide great bonuses, but they're limited bonuses. Wild shape grants every movement mode, great vision modes, and versatile attack styles, and it offers all those things all the time. Bite only gets the direct attack and defensive stuff, and only if you take a turn out of every combat. Part of what makes wild shape so great is that a lot of what I just said interacts so well with casting. You take demodu hunting bat form, and suddenly you're flying around with high AC and initiative, tossing spells every which way, with all combat to cast those spells. And that's normal wild shape. Get some forms from elsewhere and you can break the game utterly.

Which is the reason I'm also trading away Wild Shape. And Wild Shape is a class feature that can't be banned without house rules, while the Bite's can be blocked by banning books.(And yes, I did that one on purpose too.)


From a webcomic perspective, I'd think the bite spells may have an advantage, in terms of not overpowering things. It's not like enemies are going to die way before you plan for them to. Something like control winds alters the entire face of the battle, and by extension, it alters the tactics a character could plausibly bring to bear. To wit, if a character has control winds, they should cast control winds, and if they cast control winds, then suddenly the entire combat is defined by control winds. Bite just makes you hit harder and take more damage. A character could cast those all day without changing the narrative. Because, yes, Vaarsuvius did ban conjuration, but it was because teleport changes what stories can be told, not because wall of stone acts as a somewhat more versatile wall of force. Things are dangerous, both in games themselves and in stories about those games, where the fundamentally change what is possible. Bite spells don't do that.

True, but at least Control Winds is fancy, while the Werebite series is just flat numerical bonuses. Not exactly what I'm aiming at. On a more personal - and also somewhat biased - level to be honest, special effects are much cooler(and often better) than simply overpowering foes with sheer stats, as Xykon can and has testified multiple times.

Although the V example I gave was a bad one, I'll admit that.

[Karl Aegis]

What are you trying to get out of Monk levels? A slam attack can be gotten through the Fist of Stone spell or the Strength Devotion feat (also counts all weapons as adamantine). Movement speed bonus can be gotten through (swift) expeditious retreat or haste (also grants extra attack and dodge bonus). Most of a monk's class features can be replicated with a single round of buffing. Is it a flavour thing? Do you just want them to grow up as an orphan in a ninja village monastery? I don't see what you're trying to pull out of Monk that isn't better replicated by a generic Swiftblade build.

[eggynack]

What are you trying to get out of Monk levels? A slam attack can be gotten through the Fist of Stone spell or the Strength Devotion feat (also counts all weapons as adamantine). Movement speed bonus can be gotten through (swift) expeditious retreat or haste (also grants extra attack and dodge bonus). Most of a monk's class features can be replicated with a single round of buffing. Is it a flavour thing? Do you just want them to grow up as an orphan in a ninja village monastery? I don't see what you're trying to pull out of Monk that isn't better replicated by a generic Swiftblade build.
Most or all of it can be easily replicated with a full cleric or druid too, as opposed to a mostly cleric or druid.

[danielxcutter]

What are you trying to get out of Monk levels? A slam attack can be gotten through the Fist of Stone spell or the Strength Devotion feat (also counts all weapons as adamantine). Movement speed bonus can be gotten through (swift) expeditious retreat or haste (also grants extra attack and dodge bonus). Most of a monk's class features can be replicated with a single round of buffing. Is it a flavour thing? Do you just want them to grow up as an orphan in a ninja village monastery? I don't see what you're trying to pull out of Monk that isn't better replicated by a generic Swiftblade build.


Most or all of it can be easily replicated with a full cleric or druid too, as opposed to a mostly cleric or druid.

Flavor, plus it takes a bit of the CoDzilla feel away by not having divine magic doing everything. On the other hand it does put most of that back by making levels in Monk not crappy... :smallbiggrin: This ain't Optimizing for Munchkins, guys.

[Karl Aegis]

Slap a level of Expert (Monk) at the start of your build and BAM! you got all the flavour you need. Do a generic Swiftblade build after that.

[danielxcutter]

Slap a level of Expert (Monk) at the start of your build and BAM! you got all the flavour you need. Do a generic Swiftblade build after that.

Dude, I just said this isn't Optimizing for Munchkins. This is for a webcomic, and I'm not going to be optimizing that much.

[Name1]

So I've been thinking about this, and how about you doing this:

Level 1: Monk 1 (Monk Bonus feat: Monastic Training (Cerebremancer)) (1st level feat: Extend Spell)
Level 2: Monk 1/Ardent 1 (Monk Bonus feat: Whatever you want to get shuffled into Persistent Spell later)
Level 3: Monk 2/Ardent 1 (3rd level feat: Tashalatora)
Level 4: Monk 2/Ardent 2
Level 5: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 1
Level 6: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 2 (6th level feat: Versatile Spellcaster)
Level 7: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 3
Level 8: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 4
Level 9: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4 (9th level feat: Practiced Manifester)
Level 10: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1
Level 11: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1
Level 12: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 1 (applied to Ardent and Sublime Chord) (12th level feat: Arcane Disciple (Sublime Chord) (War Domain))
Level 13: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 2
Level 14: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 3
Level 15: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 (applied to Sublime Chord) (15th level feat: Practiced Spellcaster)
Level 16: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 4/Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 17: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 5/Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 18: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 6/Sacred Exorcist 1 (18th level feat: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell)
Level 19: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 7/Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 20: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Sacred Exorcist 1

It kinda sucks because you get stuck at 15 ML (you can only manifest 8th level powers), but it gives you 9th level spells (even if they aren't many) and your BAB will be equal to your HD because of your War Domains "Divine Power" spell. You will probably need a Nightstick though...

The joke with this character is that he's not only MAD, but also 2 MLs off of 9th level powers and straight up sucks until high level, which will make him the laughing stock of the party in the beginning XD

[mabriss lethe]

Don't get bogged down by minutiae. As you say, it's for a comic, not a game. Pin down the significant abilities you want him to have and then fudge the rest. An example of a simple core only monk/gish might be Monk/Assassin/Shadowdancer. Notice I didn't put any exact levels. For narrative purposes, you know he's a sneaky unarmed spellcaster that's vicious in the dark. That's all you really need to know about his abilities. Later on he might get help from a friendly shadow, or cast a certain spell, which would better allow a reader to estimate his level.

[danielxcutter]

So I've been thinking about this, and how about you doing this:

Level 1: Monk 1 (Monk Bonus feat: Monastic Training (Cerebremancer)) (1st level feat: Extend Spell)
Level 2: Monk 1/Ardent 1 (Monk Bonus feat: Whatever you want to get shuffled into Persistent Spell later)
Level 3: Monk 2/Ardent 1 (3rd level feat: Tashalatora)
Level 4: Monk 2/Ardent 2
Level 5: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 1
Level 6: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 2 (6th level feat: Versatile Spellcaster)
Level 7: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 3
Level 8: Monk 2/Ardent 2/Warmage 4
Level 9: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4 (9th level feat: Practiced Manifester)
Level 10: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1
Level 11: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1
Level 12: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 1 (applied to Ardent and Sublime Chord) (12th level feat: Arcane Disciple (Sublime Chord) (War Domain))
Level 13: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 2
Level 14: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 3
Level 15: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 (applied to Sublime Chord) (15th level feat: Practiced Spellcaster)
Level 16: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 4/Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 17: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 5/Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 18: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 6/Sacred Exorcist 1 (18th level feat: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell)
Level 19: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 7/Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 20: Monk 2/Ardent 3/Warmage 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Sacred Exorcist 1

It kinda sucks because you get stuck at 15 ML (you can only manifest 8th level powers), but it gives you 9th level spells (even if they aren't many) and your BAB will be equal to your HD because of your War Domains "Divine Power" spell. You will probably need a Nightstick though...

The joke with this character is that he's not only MAD, but also 2 MLs off of 9th level powers and straight up sucks until high level, which will make him the laughing stock of the party in the beginning XD

Do you think you could adjust that build into a character with both 9th level powers as well as 9th level spells? I've heard of the Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge trick that allows a character to get both 9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells, so it might be possible...

[Name1]

Do you think you could adjust that build into a character with both 9th level powers as well as 9th level spells? I've heard of the Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge trick that allows a character to get both 9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells, so it might be possible...

Well... yes, I could. The trick behind that is Southern Magician, a regional feat that allows you to cast divine spells as arcane spells and vice versa.

Race: Mulan Human
Level 1: Savage Bard 1 (First Level Feat: Iron Will) (Human Racial Feat: Spell Focus (Evil))
Level 2: Savage Bard 1/Monk 1
Level 3: Savage Bard 1/Monk 2 (3rd level feat: Extend Spell)
Level 4: Savage Bard 1/Monk 3
Level 5: Savage Bard 1/Monk 4
Level 6: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5 (6th level feat: Persistent Spell)
Level 7: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 1
Level 8: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 2
Level 9: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3 (9th level feat: Southern Magician)
Level 10: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1
Level 11: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 1
Level 12: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 2 (12th level feat: Practiced Spellcaster)
Level 13: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3
Level 14: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 4
Level 15: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5 (15th level feat: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell)
Level 16: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 6
Level 17: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7
Level 18: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1 (18th level feat: Mindsight)
Level 19: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1/Arcane Spellcasting Advancing PRC 1
Level 20: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1/Arcane Spellcasting Advancing PRC 1

^probably something like this. I think I can also squeeze a full manifester + full arcane caster + 3rd level divine casting, but if I were to go beyond that, we'd probably have to kick out the Monk Levels...

[danielxcutter]

Well... yes, I could. The trick behind that is Southern Magician, a regional feat that allows you to cast divine spells as arcane spells and vice versa.

Race: Mulan Human
Level 1: Savage Bard 1 (First Level Feat: Iron Will) (Human Racial Feat: Spell Focus (Evil))
Level 2: Savage Bard 1/Monk 1
Level 3: Savage Bard 1/Monk 2 (3rd level feat: Extend Spell)
Level 4: Savage Bard 1/Monk 3
Level 5: Savage Bard 1/Monk 4
Level 6: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5 (6th level feat: Persistent Spell)
Level 7: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 1
Level 8: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 2
Level 9: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3 (9th level feat: Southern Magician)
Level 10: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1
Level 11: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 1
Level 12: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 2 (12th level feat: Practiced Spellcaster)
Level 13: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3
Level 14: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 4
Level 15: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5 (15th level feat: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell)
Level 16: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 6
Level 17: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7
Level 18: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1 (18th level feat: Mindsight)
Level 19: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1/Arcane Spellcasting Advancing PRC 1
Level 20: Savage Bard 1/Monk 5/Urpriest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Mindbender 1/Arcane Spellcasting Advancing PRC 1

^probably something like this. I think I can also squeeze a full manifester + full arcane caster + 3rd level divine casting, but if I were to go beyond that, we'd probably have to kick out the Monk Levels...

Okay, 1) I said 9th level powers, not divine magic, and 2), I meant without monk levels(although I really should have made that clearer.).

[Name1]

Okay, 1) I said 9th level powers, not divine magic, and 2), I meant without monk levels(although I really should have made that clearer.).

Ah ok, I misunderstood that. I thought you wanted the Divine Variant and just asked if there is a different version available. See, the thing with Powers is that I have to rely on the Ardents wording... I mean, I can do it, but the power list will be limited if you don't invest in it.

Alright, we start with a Savage Bard again (I like that class... I mean, you can use a normal Bard too, but...)

Level 1: Savage Bard 1 (1st Level feat: Versatile Spellcaster)
Level 2: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 1
Level 3: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 2 (3rd Level feat: Heighten Spell)
Level 4: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 3
Level 5: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 4
Level 6: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 5 (6th Level feat: Earth Sense)
Level 7: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 6
Level 8: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7
Level 9: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1 (9th Level feat: Earth Spell)
Level 10: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1
Level 11: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 1
Level 12: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 2 (12th Level feat: Practiced Manifester)
Level 13: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 3
Level 14: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 4
Level 15: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 5 (15th Level feat: Practiced Spellcaster)
Level 16: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 6
Level 17: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 7
Level 18: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Mindbender 1 (18th Level feat: Mindsight)
Level 19: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Mindbender 1
Level 20: Savage Bard 1/Ardent 7/ Knight of the Weave 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 9/Mindbender 1

I guess you CAN cut out the Mindbender and a Cerebremancer Level for two Monk levels... but I wouldn't do it. You'll want high Wis and Cha for this. The interaction between Kight of the Weave and Sublime Chord may or may not result in an infinite Caster Level loop.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go monk/warlock/enlightened fist and take Eldritch Claws feat (Dragon Magazine) (or Eldritch Glaive if you want another option). Take the flight invocation and you have your own SSJ (dive attacks with Eldritch Claws is a nice visual combo).
(see my signature for more details^^)

edit: maybe I can convince you to overthink the main protagonist`? ^^ how about the "Almighty Claw of Malar" as main protagonist and the psychic warrior as sidekick?
(sry if I am unpolite with my request, I just would love to see this character in a webcomic <3 )

[danielxcutter]

I would go monk/warlock/enlightened fist and take Eldritch Claws feat (Dragon Magazine) (or Eldritch Glaive if you want another option). Take the flight invocation and you have your own SSJ (dive attacks with Eldritch Claws is a nice visual combo).
(see my signature for more details^^)

edit: maybe I can convince you to overthink the main protagonist`? ^^ how about the "Almighty Claw of Malar" as main protagonist and the psychic warrior as sidekick?
(sry if I am unpolite with my request, I just would love to see this character in a webcomic <3 )

Well, I actually do have plans for including a gish Warlock build character in the party, but not a) certainly not as the main protagonist :smallannoyed: and b) I was thinking of either a Glaivelock build or multiclassing into fighter, since hand-to-hand combat is already covered by the Monk/Druid/Sacred Fist character I've already decided on(as you might have noticed in some of the other posts in this thread :smalltongue:)

However, I appreciate the idea - are you okay with me using a Clawlock build for a secondary character? Not with Monk levels, but Improved Unarmed Strike as well as a few other tricks will be part of it, and I'll make a shout-out to "the Almighty Claw of Malar" or something like that too! So what do you say?

[Troacctid]

How about the monk prestige classes from Dragon #314? They're not terribly optimal, but they are pretty darn cool, and this seems like a nice opportunity to use them.

[Gruftzwerg]

Well, I actually do have plans for including a gish Warlock build character in the party,

I just spoke out my thoughts, but don't get to much influenced by my desires^^. Go with the idea you had in mind.
Glaivelock is a good gish build too (doesn't fit the claw-malar thing, but that fine. it's your comic not mine ;)

or you could add hellfire for more fun? any thoughts on a "get's always killed/suicide" character? (aka Kenny from South Park)

[danielxcutter]

How about the monk prestige classes from Dragon #314? They're not terribly optimal, but they are pretty darn cool, and this seems like a nice opportunity to use them.

I did consider them a while ago(before I even started this thread, as a matter of fact :smallbiggrin:), but now I've decided to use the Monk/Druid/Sacred Fist build. However, since the comic world will have more prestige classes than most supplements, they're perfect for giving minor characters extra flavor. As a matter of fact, I'm planning on making lots of characters with some of the builds/PrCs other people have suggested - not using them at all seems a waste of people's efforts and creative ideas.

[danielxcutter]

I just spoke out my thoughts, but don't get to much influenced by my desires^^. Go with the idea you had in mind.
Glaivelock is a good gish build too (doesn't fit the claw-malar thing, but that fine. it's your comic not mine ;)

or you could add hellfire for more fun? any thoughts on a "get's always killed/suicide" character? (aka Kenny from South Park)

Wonder if Hellfire can be applied to Eldritch Claws/Glaive? Oh, and Malar's not going to waste - you just gave me an idea for a minor character!

[Gruftzwerg]

Wonder if Hellfire can be applied to Eldritch Claws/Glaive? Oh, and Malar's not going to waste - you just gave me an idea for a minor character!

I haven't played a Hellfire Warlock myself, but as far as I am aware of from guides, you can apply it. Hellfire gives you extra dice for Eldritch Blast and Claws/Glaive just use your (boosted) Eldritch Blast dice.

[Troacctid]

It applies to glaive, but not claws.

It also might only apply to the first glaive hit due to the way weaponlike spells interact with bonus damage, but I'm AFB; I'd have to check my sources.