Optimization Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass [Archive]

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 09:46 AM

I am the bone of my sword
Why Be a Sorcadin? The Pros and Cons

http://giffiles.alphacoders.com/134/13487.gif
Pro Number 1: Insane Nova Damage. (Image by Ufotable)

The Sorcadin is a wonderful gish build that’s good at pretty much almost anything, but to make its characteristics easier to read and understand, let’s break it up into several parts.

Pros:

Insane Nova Damage
Versatility via High-Level Spells
Strong Both Martially and Magically
Fills in Any Party Role

Neutral:

Aren’t Sorcadins squishy?
Don’t they get Extra Attack late?

Cons:

Running Out of Resources
Doesn’t Work at Low Levels
Lower Stats (Point-Buy only)

Let’s delve further:
Pro 1: Insane Nova Damage
If you like slamming in mass damage into your enemies once in a a while, Paladin is always a good class choice.

If you like slamming in mass damage into your enemies with eerie frequence, Sorcadins are the class for you.

For those who don’t know, “Nova” refers to when a character chunks out a massive amount of damage in one round, often involving using up a lot of resources. Often considered the antonym of “DPR”, or “Damage Per Round”, which (though its name is self-explanatory) refers to the average damage a character inflicts each round.

Pure Paladins are already considered the big bosses of Nova damage in 5e. This is because of the Divine Smite ability, which is also the key mechanic in the Sorcadin build, but Sorcadins make it go even further by smiting using the more high-level Sorcerer Spell Slots as high-grade fuel. The synergy of a Paladin multiclassing with Caster is something of a miracle or phenomenon, but Sorcerers are generally the best choice if you’re gonna go many levels into Caster, due to Metamagic.

Spells like Hold Person make Sorcadins even more hilarious to use. Auto-Crit makes Smite damage so devastating that the Sorcadin can basically incapacitate a high-CR boss in one or two rounds on his own.

For instance, let’s take a look at what happens if the Sorcadin uses Hold Person as a bonus action, and proceeds to make two critical attacks (Extra Attack), expending two level 4 spell slots on it for the Smites (maximum damage). This is something the Sorcadin will be able to do from level 11 or higher (if you go Paladin 6/ Sorcerer 5).

Assuming his STR is 16 and the weapon is a Longsword, the original damage is 1d8+3+5d8 per hit, but with critical this becomes 12d8+3=57 damage per hit.

Two hits (sorta guaranteed with the enemy paralyzed), and that’s 114 damage, more than enough to swipe the floor with your enemies (or at least what’s left of them). I mean, not that you will want to pull this off often - high-level Smites should be reserved for special bosses you really wanna kill quickly - but the fact you have such a devastating trick up your sleeve is very relaxing, not to mention amusing.

Of course, you don’t necessarily need to do such a resource-consuming combo to show that your Nova damage is boss, though - what’s given above is just an example of what Sorcadins can do when the dire need arises (or when you roll crit from the start). Simply put, you can Smite more frequently and more effectively than Pure Paladins, because you have more spell slots. That’s already quite strong enough an ability. Sorta ironic that those who multiclassed from Paladin can smite better than pure Paladins, but who cares, that’s exactly why we’re here.

If required, you can do other interesting stuff like use Quickened Spell on Fireball, and after most of the mobs have been cleared, proceed to clean up the leftovers using your normal action attack(s). Because that’s another way of showing how simply awesome you are. Other classes can’t do that.

Pro 2: Versatility via High-Level Spells
Spells are like a toolkit. You can blast, you can buff, you can debuff, you can fly, you can basically do everything you want using spell slots.

Sorcadins have the almighty spells like Bless from being a Paladin, but you also get other goodies like aforementioned Fireball and Hold Person. Apart from those, let’s see... Mirror Image, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph... At higher levels, Animate Objects is a complete nosebleeder, Hold Monster allows you to incinerate anything with that aforementioned 116-damage combo, Mass Suggestion can solve a session or completely alter an campaign on its own, and Reverse Gravity makes you feel like a superhero, which in fact you already are.

And guess what. The best part of it is that you can cast all of these using a Bonus Action with Quickened Spell.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yGvzYY2iBx8/UpZyL8NMQbI/AAAAAAAAPMI/lSs5fnPx6Uc/s1600/unlimited-power.gif
^ How you feel like when you use Quickened Spell. ^
(Image Copyright Disney/Lucasfilm Ltd. & TM.)

Pro 3: Strong Both Martially and Magically
So, Casters are versatile. It’s just like how roses are red and violets are blue.

I’m a big fan of Casters for this reason.

But at the very same time, I’m not a fan of them.

The hell is wrong with you Gastronomie!? You’re contradicting yourself! Well, my point is that while I like having a massive arsenal of possible I WIN buttons stored in my suitcase, I don’t like the idea of standing in the backrow, never taking damage, munching on a sandwich and shooting magical shotguns while the frontliners hack away at the goblins. This may sound like I’m masochist or bloodthirsty or perhaps even insane, but I personally prefer it when I’m taking damage on the frontlines as well. Feels more... Alive. More dangerous. Thrilling. ...Wait, what am I, Kenpachi or something?

http://giffiles.alphacoders.com/138/13824.gif
WHY YES I AM.

Anyhow, back on topic: Sorcadins are awesome in how they can be both frontline warriors and versatile casters. Two jobs are better than one. And unlike how Bladelocks need to think which job to do (hack-slash or spellcast) during a particular turn, being a Sorcadin, you don’t need to ever think You can just used Quickened Spell to do both jobs in the same turn, because you’re just way too boss to consider choosing between options. The hell with action economy, you don’t need to care about that stuff.

If you’re my type of player who wants to be versatile and almighty but still wants to feel how your sharp blade slices through flesh and bone and hacks off the heads of the kobolds, and proceed to bathe in the blood of both yourself and your mutilated enemies, Sorcadins are the class for you. (And if you want to be a reliable tank, going Paladin 6 or more is recommended.)

Even if you aren’t my type, the Sorcadin is guaranteed to be enjoyable to play, since you always have something powerful you can do, be it slice or be it cast. And oh boy do you feel amazing.

Pro 4: Fills in Any Party Role

http://i.imgur.com/vHBgnNI.gif
^ Being a Paladin, you excel at protecting your allies from certain death. ^
(Image by Ufotable)

I’ve already talked about this a bit in 2., but let’s explain about this even deeper. (This will also be delved into in the upcoming section, “Possible Party Roles of a Sorcadin”.)

First off, Paladins are healers, with the ever-useful Lay On Hands ability, as well as good healing spells like Cure Wounds. My advice is that you should always have at least one healing spell prepared. Another advice, this given mainly to beginners, is to not heal during fights, unless it’s to wake up someone with 0 HP. This is sorta similar as in Pokemon, or any other game which is a mix of combat and adventuring - better to attack or buff during fights, and save the healing for after the battle is over, in order to not waste your turns.

Apart from that, this is MaxWilson’s idea, but if you happen to go all the way up to Paladin 9 (this becomes a more Paladin-centered build, sorta similar in mechanics to an Eldritch Knight) there’s also a really interesting combination of Aura of Vitality + Extended Spell. Takes some out-of-combat time, but heals a whooping total of 40d6=140 HP for just a level 3 slot and 1 Sorcery point. Amazing synergy here. The problem here is that you get only a very limited number of Metamagic options, though.

That’s for the healing. But Sorcadins can also buff.

As aforementioned, Sorcadins have access to Bless, arguably one of the strongest low-level spells in the entire game. This can also be upcast to suit your party needs. HOWEVER, you are actually probably better to leave Bless to your other party members, like a Lore Bard or Cleric. Why? Because you have even better things to concentrate on. Let’s look into those in the “Choosing Your Spells” section, later on in the guide.

To avoid losing your concentration on Bless easily, take the War Caster feat (or Resilient (CON) for some cases) as soon as possible.

Just, be aware that if you’re gonna take it using Variant Human, your first level automatically needs to be Sorcerer (Paladin level 1 doesn’t have spellcasting, so you can’t choose War Caster), meaning that it might get a bit difficult for you to gain Heavy Armor proficiency. Not a problem with DEX builds, but could get in the way of certain STR builds, so make sure not to forget it.
NOTE: It’s generally the better choice to start Paladin for the WIS saves.

You could also get proficiency in CON saves in one way or another as you level up. Most likely Resilient. It isn't a "requirement" (due to the upcoming ability), especially if you have War Caster, but still strong.

Apart from Bless, once you hit Paladin level 6 or higher, Aura of Protection kicks in, which basically reads “EVERYONE QUICK HUDDLE AROUND THE PALADIN” (and also boosts your concentration saves). Too much huddling together and the enemy might actually make good use of that by casting Fireball or some other AoE* effect, but in general this ability is handy and useful, occasionally saving both your neck and the friends of your necks from certain doom. Not to mention, this ability is persistent, and doesn’t use up resources, unlike a majority of the Sorcadin’s abilities**. This is rare, invaluable, precious, and absolutely adorable.
*AoE = Area of Effect.
**Using Up Resources: We’ll talk more about this characteristic of Sorcadins in “Cons”.

Spells like Invisibility can also help your teammates, depending on your party build, but aren’t absolutely necessary (especially with the Sorcerer’s limited number of spells). Assassins will spoil their pants with this spell, though, so it’s a nice idea to give it to them.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/24de5f21e09a59e3e8ce8eedc26d9c3f/tumblr_nnxwrxvYN41t33d6lo1_500.gif
^ The totally unrequired gif of an Assassin spoiling his pants. ^
(Image by Ufotable)

Twinning Haste, Greater Invisibility or Polymorph is another way of showing how well Metamagic works. Be careful not to ever drop concentration for that Haste, though.

Sorcadins can also control, debuffing enemies and/or moving them around into positions beneficial for your team. You have access to spells like Command (which can be upcast), Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite, Hold Person, Web (combine with Careful Spell and it’s an absolutely amazing combo), Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, and so on.

Yes, I know. So many options! One of the most difficult parts of creating a Sorcadin is to determine which spells and Metamagic abilities to take, when there’s so many amazing options to choose from.
Neutral 1: Aren’t Sorcadins squishy?
This is a question that may pop up in the minds of certain readers. Sorcerers have a pretty scrawny Hit Die of d6, meaning that every level the Sorcadin takes in Sorcerer, he loses 2 HP (well, eh, all power comes with a cost anyways). This may seem like a pretty nasty problem for frontline warriors, and indeed, if you keep the Sorcadin as it is, they lag behind Pure Paladins in terms of tankiness. However, there are several ways to get around this, and I don’t believe it’s enough of something that can be classified in “Cons” - and so, here it is, in the “Neutral” box.

Let’s divide the solutions into “Increasing AC”, “Increasing HP”, and “Other Methods”.

Increasing AC
The most straightforward answer is to use the Shield spell. You could call this more than a spell - it’s a part of the Sorcadin’s core abilities.

“Shield” is something Eldritch Knights also have, and the very reason why they’re considered to be the most tanky of all the Fighters;+5 AC one round at the cost of a level 1 slot is just way too juicy to ignore. If you’re trying to optimize your Sorcadin, there is really no excuse to not taking this spell.

http://i.imgur.com/ElSjWlX.gif
The Archer supports this statement. It doesn’t work all the time though... (Image Copyright Ufotable)

If you’re going for a STR build, get Plate Armor as soon as possible. If you’re going DEX, use Mage Armor or the Draconic Resilience ability of Draconic Sorcerers to get maximum AC (Studded Leather Armor is another good option if your DM allows you to buy or earn it). Both Plate and Studded Leather are either too expensive or rare to gain at early levels, but buffing AC is great, so be sure to pick them up sooner or later.

If you’re gonna go DEX-based Sorcadin, do keep in mind that since light armor consults your DEX, and you likely wouldn’t be maxing out your DEX until you’re really high-level (unless you rolled godly with stat-rolling), your AC will probably be still lower than that of a STR-based build. In fact, there’s some chance you will want to pump CHA instead of maxing out DEX, so either way, your AC may be 1 or 2 points lower than that of a STR build.

Going Sword and Board (Longsword/Rapier and Shield) is another way to increase your AC. If you have Longsword+Shield+Plate, for instance, your normal AC will be 20, and when you get hit by an opponent’s strong attack, you can use the Shield spell for AC 25. “Equal to the Tarrasque” sums up how high an AC this is in 5e. (However, if both of your hands are full with separate weapons, and your DM is fussy about rules, you may not be able to cast spells with Material or Somatic components. War Caster solves this problem to some extent, and together with improving your concentration, it’s a mandatory Feat for Sword-and-Board Sorcadins that you should get as fast as possible.)

The Shield of Faith spell increases your AC by 2, but sadly requires concentration. It’s not a bad spell; in fact it’s good... It’s just that there are better options, and there are many attractive contestants who want to be concentrated upon.

Finally, the Defense Fighting Style is actually a pretty reasonable option for you, if not the best option - you can take it via Paladin 2. It does rob you of Dueling, which is pretty good for Sword and Board builds too, but while obviously strong and still a good option, Dueling is not as effective as it is for other builds, mainly due to how you’re gonna be Green-Flame Blading or Booming Blading for a pretty long part of your career (both of which allow you to attack only once - the +2 damage bonus to each attack is stronger if you have Extra Attack).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MHXCdHA48uA/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/loXkvAT70ew/photo.jpg
^ Wearing good armor helps a lot. Be aware of how donning armor in D&D generally takes more time than in this gif. ^
(Image by Ufotable)

Increasing HP
Draconic Sorcerer (close to Gold for DEX builds, due to Draconic Resilience) is one good option for those who want a Sorcadin with a more blasty feel (increasing the damage of Fireball and other AoE spells is marvelous, and also makes the most out of this ability), but it’s not just about that. It also increases your HP by 1 per Sorcerer level, meaning that you don’t lose as much HP from going Sorcerer as you would have if you chose other Origin options.

The Abyssal Tiefling (UA) race not only boosts your CON and CHA (both important stats for you), but also gives you one extra HP per two levels. It’s not really a very respectable amount, though, so just consider it an extra bonus. Might save your skin occasionally.

There’s also Feats such as Durable or Tough, but, ehhh... Most of the time, I’d honesty just use my ASIs to increase my CON, if I wanted more HP. That way I can be better at concentrating too. And as mentioned later in the Cons of this class (no pun intended), ASIs and Feats are hard to come across, especially for multiclass builds such as this one. One should use them wisely.

If you have high CHA, the Inspiring Leader Feat does become pretty good, though. Healing a good lot of HP per short rest (technically not healing, but rather giving out temporary HP, but pretty much the same thing) for everyone in the party is quite a nice ability, and makes you more tankier than CON +2.

If you’re going to multiclass Warlock for 2 or more levels, Fiendish Vigor can work as a pretty nice option to give you Temporary HP. It gives you 8 temporary HP in-between every single battle (there’s no limit to the number of times you can cast False Life, so immediately after a fight is over, you can keep on re-using it till you roll a 4 with the 1d4). Dark One’s Blessing (Fiend Pact) also gives you temporary HP whenever you kill someone.

(Multiclassing into Warlock delays your Caster levels, so it’s obviously not for everyone. However, the spells gained at even a 1 or 2-level dip are pretty powerful (Armor of Agathys etc.), and it’s arguably worth it, depending on what your build goal or role is.)

The simplest answer is to really just heal yourself with Lay On Hands or Cure Wounds (or Aura of Vitality if you’ve gone deep in Paladin). Expect to do this every now and then.

Other Methods
First let’s talk about racial and class abilities.

Certain races give us not only CON bonuses, but also neat abilities that increase your tankiness. Apart from the aforementioned Abyssal Tiefling, Half-Orc is great. It boosts your two main stats, has darkvision, makes you extra aggressive with critical hits, gives you proficiency with a skill you’re gonna be super excellent at, and allows you to recover from fainting once per day. Everything in this package is wonderful for a Sorcadin, and it’s no wonder that the sample character shown in the first page of “Paladin” in the PHB is a Half-Orc. Actually, Half-Orcs make better Sorcadins than Paladins, since the “Relentless Endurance” emergency button is more important to someone with lower HP.

Goliaths are another race well-suited for Sorcadins. Apart from having the same stat bonuses as Half-Orcs, they can reduce the damage you take by 1d12+CON per short rest, which is basically the same thing as being able to heal your HP by 10-ish per short rest by just using a Reaction. That said, this “Stone’s Endurance” ability might compete with the Shield spell for your defensive reaction, so make sure to decide wisely - which to use, at what moment. Ending a short rest without using this ability will make you regret it.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/f/f3/God_Hand_Ufotable.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160103224759
^ Your average Goliath, activating Stone’s Endurance. ^
(Image by Ufotable)

Taking a look at the Sorcerer options, the Shadow Origin (aka the Emo Origin) gives you two ways to make yourself tankier. For one, Strength of the Grave is basically the same ability as Undead Fortitude, which in other words means it’s pretty damn neat (general rule of combat: when an ability the enemy uses is annoying for you, that probably means it’s strong). But what makes Emo Sorcerers really Mary Sue powerful is the Eyes of the Dark ability, which I feel is honestly too offhand in terms of Sorcery Points. Not only does it give you Darkvision, it’s basically the infamous Darkness + Devil’s Sight combo, except in a level 1 ability and with a cost that’s astonishingly lighter than a level 2 spell slot. Shadow Sorcerers will have to choose between Bless and Darkness (among many others) for their spell concentration, but if they choose Darkness and target their weapon, they will have advantage on all their attacks, and also impose disadvantage on all attacks meant for them. Together with the Shield spell, this thing is now unstoppable.

I’ve used Shadow Sorcerer Sorcadins several times, and one thing’s now certain: If a player wants to use Shadow Sorcerer in my games, I will make the cost of Eyes of the Dark 2 Sorcery Points, instead of 1. It’s obviously too much as it is.

Now, let’s move on to the Spells that boost your tankiness (besides Darkness).

Blur is a good option depending on the circumstances, bestowing disadvantage on all attacks aimed at you. The fact it’s a concentration spell is really tragic, because otherwise it would have been amazing beyond belief, but that’s how all strong 5e spells work...

...Hmm?

No, let me re-phrase that. That’s how almost all strong 5e spells work.

Take a look at Mirror Image, or the “Misprint of 5e”, which for some reason or another does not require concentration (you can use it together with other strong spells!!). Casting it before combat is most ideal, but not all DMs permit that, and even if he did, you don’t really see every single combat coming beforehand. You should remember that it also serves as an emergency button when you’re getting low on HP.

Oh, and though this also requires concentration, Greater Invisibility can be also used to gain an effect similar to Darkness + Devil’s Sight. You can also Twin it to make your party love you. Imagine what’d happen if both the Sorcadin and the Assassin are invisible... (Works even better with DEX builds, having Stealth, and GWM builds, which always want to have advantage on their attacks)

Finally, moving on to Feats. Heavy Armor Master is pretty nice an ability, but do be aware that ASIs and Feats are precious for Sorcadins, so you should think twice before taking it (unless it’s taken at level 1 using Variant Human).

And... I think that’s about it for now. Will update if I think up more, if other people suggest good ideas to add.

Neutral 2: Don’t they get Extra Attack late?
Yes, true, if you go Sorcerer for several levels before going Paladin 5, Sorcadins may get Extra Attack at a higher level. Or, builds going Paladin 2 or 3 never get Extra Attack unless they go Favored Soul. And without getting Extra Attack, the Sorcadin’s DPR will be lower than the average Pure Paladin. Right?

Well, the truth is that this is half-right and half-wrong.

I’m not going to say that Sorcadins can get constantly better DPR than a Pure Paladin. However, I am going to point out that the Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade cantrips (SCAG) are wonderful additions to the Sorcadin’s arsenal, and most definitely make up enough for not having Extra Attack for several levels.

http://pa1.narvii.com/5804/c2af9d6c7c50527d74006ca957125b06b0a8f330_hq.gif
BUUMINGU BUREIDO!!! (Image Copyright Ufotable)

For instance, a STR 18 Paladin with Longsword (one hand) + Dueling + Extra Attack inflicts 2d8+12 damage per turn, dividing 1d8+6 among two targets. The average DPR is 21.

A STR 16, CHA 16 Sorcadin of level 5 or higher but no Extra Attack (with one-hand Longsword and no* Dueling) inflicts 2d8+3 damage to one target, and 1d8+3 damage to another target. These sum up to be 3d8+6, its average DPR being 19.5. The difference is only 1.5 points per round - even with a lower STR score (Sorcadins have less ASIs/Feats than pure builds due to the multiclassing), the Sorcadin can damage just as well as the Paladin.
*NOTE - if you add the damage from Dueling, GFB actually damages more than Extra Attack, but here I didn’t give the Sorcadin Dueling because it’s actually more optimal to give him [B]Defense.

If there’s no two enemies standing next to each other, Booming Blade is just 2d8+3 damage (average 12), so yeah, true, the DPR of Sorcadins lags behind Pure Paladins. But it also makes this guy a nice sentinel (without even taking the Sentinel feat). Zapping the enemy with 2d8 extra damage is fun.

Speaking of Booming Blade, this particular cantrip and War Caster make a glorious combination, making picking up Booming Blade a must for this build, even if you already have Extra Attack.

Remember how War Caster lets you attack someone with a cantrip when they leave melee range? The basic idea is that when somebody stupid turns his back on you, you attack him with Booming Blade to troll him, and also potentially kill him on the spot. At levels 5 to 10 this inflicts 2d8+STR damage with just that, but it doesn’t end there - since the enemy moved (that was the whole trigger of the opportunity attack anyway), the enemy takes an extra 2d8 thunder damage, for a total of 4d8+STRmod damage for just moving out of your reach. And it gets even upgraded at higher levels, to a maximum of 8d8. Oh god, look, just look at his face as he writhes in agony and falls dead crisping on the floor. Hilarious.

And if you really need to damage someone badly, we’ve already covered how Sorcadins excel at it using Divine Smite. We do that better than Pure Paladins anyway.

Finally, to make the damage of the SCAG cantrips better than Extra Attack, you can take the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerous Origin and choose Fire (by RAW, Blue Dragons correspond to Lightning, and Booming Blade is Thunder, so the two don’t mesh together. I think this is really stupid and ridiculous, so I let Blue Dragons add damage to Thunder spells in my game, but not all DMs in the world are like that). From Sorcerer level 6 and higher, Elemental Affinity increases your Green-Flame Blade damage even more.

All in all, it can be concluded that “lagging behind in average DPR” isn’t that much of a problem for Sorcadins. Either you can catch up with Extra Attack’s damage (GFB), or while you do inflict less damage, you can shine much brighter in other ways to make up for it (BB).
Now, as much as I hate to admit it, being a multiclass build, and an especially specialized one at that, the Sorcadin build does have its weak points. Since I don’t want to deceive people into thinking the Sorcadin has no weaknesses, let me explain them - and also give advice on how to solve those problems, or try to protect the Sorcadin by arguing it’s actually a weakness many classes share.

Con 1: Running Out of Resources

http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-11-2015/vTxuQz.gif
The Blond guy conveniently doesn’t run out of abilities. Sadly, you do. (Image by Ufotable)

Let’s take a look at the core abilities of the Sorcadin.

Paladin Abilities
Lay On Hands (Expended, Recharges on a Long Rest)
Divine Smite (Spell Slots Expended, Recharges on a Long Rest)
Spell Slots (Expended, Recharges on a Long Rest)
Aura of Protection (Always There)

Sorcerer Abilities
Font of Magic (Sorcery Points/Spell Slots Expended, Recharges on a Long Rest)
Metamagic (Sorcery Points Expended, Recharges on a Long Rest)
Spell Slots (Expended, Recharges on a Long Rest)

...And you realize a certain tendency...

https://45.media.tumblr.com/07077cf474748d9331bc2c50b0c8cb50/tumblr_o0l6tjNSSd1sajb9no6_500.gif
"ARGGGHHHHHHH FUUUUUUUUUUU"
^ What you’re like after you’ve used up all your resources ^
(Image by Ufotable)

Yes, exactly. Almost all the abilities of the Sorcadin are expended every time you use them. And once they’re gone, you need to wait till a long rest to recover them. Doesn’t matter if a dragon comes pursuing you after what you thought will be the final fight for the day. Once everything is gone, you will need to fight without any resources!

The only ability you have left after you’ve used up everything is Aura of Protection. That, and either the SCAG Blade Cantrips or Extra Attack. EVERYONE HUDDLE AROUND ME!! I CAN’T DO ANYTHING ELSE TO HELP YOU GUYS!!

That said, it’s not like this is unique to the Sorcadin. Both pure Paladins and pure Sorcerers suffer from the exact same problem, as do many other classes. It’s just that the Sorcadin has a lot more options on how to spend these resources, which makes it even more of a perplexing problem in terms of resource management. Since there’s so many options, all of them being so strong and fascinating, it’s surprisingly easy to get mesmerized and use up too many resources, resulting in you having not enough left when you really need it.

How shall I use these spell slots? To smite, or to blast, or to heal, or to protect, or to buff, or to debuff? So many choices. And all of them so strong and fascinating (yes, I know, this is my second time saying this, but that’s because it’s all true and I want to emphasize greatly on it). Making the most out of a Sorcadin requires real-life WIS of the player.

The difficult part is that if you try to economize too much and end the day without using most of your abilities, that’s basically a waste of all your badass abilities.

Then, is the fact that you need to use your resources carefully a “weakness” of the Sorcadin?

No. No, it really isn’t.

First-off, combat-wise, the whole system of D&D is a resource-management game. It’s how D&D classes work in general. It’s not just Sorcadins - every class is like that, at least to some extent.

Second, Sorcadins strictly have more resources than pure Paladins. Since most pure Paladins can live their adventuring day without dying from resource depletion, you probably wouldn’t have problems either.

Anyhow, what makes this multiclass a bit difficult to use for beginners is rather the fact that Sorcadins don’t have a back-up option, or a way to restore their lost resources. Classes like Battle Masters, Monks and Warlocks can easily recover mid-day, even after using too much resources, by taking a short rest - so even if you make a mistake, you can get back from the loss. While Sorcadins can convert Spell Slots into Sorcery Points, and vice versa, the truth is that Sorcadins use both of these resources quite a lot, so it’s sorta uncertain whether it properly works as a “back-up option”.

Before the session, you should probably ask your DM “how many encounters to expect per day”. Some DMs might not answer (they obviously have the right to do that), but some DMs will, in which case you can set up your plans more wisely, using resources in the most effective ways possible at the just right moment. As a general rule, a small number of encounters means the Sorcadin shines better, though this applies for many, many classes indeed (ALL the casters, excluding Druid and Warlock, belong in here).

Con 2: Doesn’t Work at Low Levels

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad133/greedymode/fsn/berserk1.gif
^ If you think you can do this sort of badass maneuver at low levels, you’re wrong. ^
(Image by Ufotable)

This is something that can be said for most complex Multiclass builds, but I suppose I’d still list it here in “Cons”.

From Level 6 and higher, I think it’s safe to say that Sorcadins can work fine. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 does enough of what the build is supposed to do, though it’s admittedly of a smaller scale than originally intended.

With a very limited amount of Sorcery Points and slots, you will frequently find yourself running out of resources (as already mentioned in Con 1). Using Quickened Spell will require a lot of thought at these low levels - “is this truly the right way to use it, when you can economize the Sorcery Point resources by just waiting another turn?”

So, it might be harder to capture the distinctive “almighty feel” that the Sorcadin is intended to give you.

My personal opinion is that most casters, regardless of Sorcadin or not, would have more of this “sense of superiority” at higher levels and be overall lackluster at low levels - but this is just my personal opinion (and Citan, who proofread this guide, has pointed that out. Thanks Citan!). However, the fact remains that at least in the Sorcadin’s case, you will be working much, much better at higher levels.

On the bright side, you have a lot of upcoming goodies to look forward to.

On the duller side, if your campaigns are constantly low-level and the players reset their levels to 1 whenever a short campaign is finished, you might never be able to bathe in the ultimate glory that high-level Sorcadins can feel.

But don’t worry. You can always just bide your time and wait, starting Paladin, going all the way to level 6 or 7. And when the right time comes, suddenly scream “I DISCOVERED MY ANCESTOR WAS A DRAGON” or “I BECAME EMO WITH DARKNESS POWERS” and start multiclassing Sorcerer. That’s one way of doing it, and a smart one too, given how amazing the Paladin Auras are.

If you want to go with a Caster-heavy build, going Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X helps you a lot with this problem, since you’re not so many levels late in Caster progression.

Or, you could simply jump into a game that starts at a higher level. If you see a campaign like “accepting players, starts at level 12”, that is the perfect timing to create a Sorcadin and shove your way into the player list.

Con 3: Lower Stats (Point-Buy only)

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If only I had 2 more STR... (Image by Ufotable)

Since you get less chances to take ASI/Feat due to multiclassing, Sorcadins are prone to getting stats lower than their pure-class counterparts.

I’ll say it again: This applies to all multiclass builds. It is not unique to the Sorcadin. END OF THE STORY!!

...No, actually, it isn’t the end of the story. Sadly, but admittedly, this problem is more troublesome for Sorcadins than it is for, say, a Fighter/Rogue or a Sorcerer/Warlock.

This is for two reasons.

1. Sorcadins are MAD.
“MAD” is an abbreviation of “Multiple Ability score Dependent”, meaning that a character requires high scores in multiple stats to work as good as it should. In the Paladin’s case, STR, CON, and CHA are the stats used often, so you want all three to be pretty high... The problem being that it’s really difficult to boost up all of these, with so little chances to get the Ability Score Improvements. Even if you’re going to make a DEX build, you need 13 STR to multiclass in or out of Paladin (perhaps some really generous DMs might say yes to changing the multiclass requirement to 13 DEX, 13 CHA, but don’t count on it), so it gets even more MAD.

Now, keep in mind that there is some argument over exactly how MAD Sorcadins are. The Hightened Spell Metamagic ability can make your spells devastating even with a low CHA, for instance, so you have a lot of options to get around this problem. However, my personal opinion is that to make the most out of Sorcadins you would probably want high numbers in all of your main three stats. Especially given how Aura of Protection is so amazing...

And well, even when you get a chance to take an ASI/Feat, your first (or even if not first, definitely your second) chance should be almost mandatorily used for...

2. Sorcadins need either War Caster or Resilient (CON) to work
...This.

First, for S&B Sorcadins (be it Longsword or Rapier), the War Caster Feat is beyond good. It is amazing, and mandatory..

There are three reasons for a S&B build to take War Caster. The first is that it improves your concentration. The second is the combination with Booming Blade (explained in “Neural 2”). And the third is that it allows you builds to use spells with Somatic components (this does not stand for Great Weapon Master builds though, which is one reason why GWM characters should choose Resilient over this).

For GWM builds, War Caster is not mandatory, but Resilient (CON) certainly is. You can already cast Somatic and Material spells from the start (the creators of this game have confirmed this ruling, and most DMs abide by them), so War Caster is not as attractive, and what’s more frightening is rather the stuff like the drow with their poisoned crossbows, and other monsters that come target your CON for their dangerous abilities, especially those which bestow advantage on your attacks and severely debuff GWM builds (sure, you can take an action to use Lay on Hands and neutralize drow poison, but it does waste an action). While Resilient (CON) works on these, War Caster doesn’t. This is a very valid reason to take Resilient (CON) over War Caster.

These sorts of Feats that are mandatory for a particular build to work are called Feat Taxes, and while strong if taken, will slow down your ASI progression, which winds you up with lower ability scores.

Be it Bless, or Darkness, or Hold Person, or Haste, without advantage on concentration, you can easily drop the save, resulting in you wasting not only an action, but also an invaluable spell slot. You never want to drop concentration.

My answer is, it’s a good option, but not necessarily the best option either. It’s better for 2/18 builds than it is for 6/14 builds.

The issue here is that, if you go Paladin 6 or higher, [B]Aura of Protection already boosts your concentration save, so together with your CON, by default you have a +6-ish bonus on your concentration saves (on top of advantage via War Caster). Even if you’re doing the DC 10 save with just War Caster and Aura and with no Resilient, the percentage of failing the save is already only about 4% (assuming you have 16 CON and 16 CHA), and even with a stat of 14 in either, about 6%.

Let’s see the possible merits of going both War Caster and Resilient (CON).

Even if you get higher damage at higher levels with just +6 and War Caster - for instance, 30 damage from the CR 13 Storm Giant’s Greatsword (DC 15) - you can keep concentration for about 80% of the time. Meanwhile, if you take 54 damage from the Storm Giant’s Lightning Strike ability (DC 27), Resilient (CON) could sorta help you at times (with a +6 and advantage, the percentage of success is obviously 0%, while for +11 and advantage, you can succeed about 44% of the time). Not like it comes up very often. (BTW, with a simple +11 and no advantage, your chances of succeeding are 25%.)

However, all the above is based on the assumption you have Aura of Protection. If you don’t, it will be a lot better option for you.

Whether you want proficiency in CON saves is up to you. If you want it, you should probably take Resilient. Technically, there are two other ways to get them, but neither are really recommended:

The first way is to start first level Sorcerer. The second way is to start first level Fighter (you lag behind in Sorcadin levels, but get an extra fighting style, a self-healing option, and heavy armor proficiency). However, both do not get proficiency in WIS saves, so it’s a trade-off, and one that could potentially end up being fatal. A lot of nasty effects target WIS for their saves...
These sum up to the following conclusion:
“Sorcadins are MAD, and at the same time, they get less ASIs and Feats compared to pure-class builds, and also suffer from Feat Tax, namely either War Caster or Resilient (CON). This makes it rather difficult for them to get high ability scores, and thus they may not be able to make the most out of their abilities.”

Due to this, Sorcadins are one of the classes that work better with stat-rolling than 27 point-buy.

However, this doesn’t necessarily mean that they don’t work good in point-buy, of course. Sure, having 16 STR, you might not hit as accurately as a pure Paladin with 18 STR, but the difference pops up only 5% of the time. And sure, having 16 CHA, the saving throws for your spells might be easier than those of the pure Sorcerer with 18 CHA, but again, the difference pops up only 5% of the time. What does this mean? The difference in Ability Scores isn’t as harmful as one may assume.

Also, if you’re going STR and you optimize your choice of Race, it’s not difficult at all to start with a score of 16 in all 3 important ability scores (STR, CON, and CHA) - the best you can hope for in point-buy - or at least get there with your next ASI (while also getting an 18 somewhere). Even if you go DEX, you can get something like DEX 16, CON 14, CHA 16 from level 1 using Half-Elf. Thus it can be said that the problem of being MAD is not as perplexing as it may seem.

Now, looking at all three “Cons” of the Sorcadin, we can say that while the Sorcadin cannot escape from the unavoidable weaknesses that all casters and multiclass builds in general must face, none of them are fatal or specifically unique to this build, and that they don’t really serve as reasons why you can say this build is a bad option at all.

Sorcadins remain awesome.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 09:48 AM

Steel is my body, and fire is my blood
Races and Stats

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Choose Your Character! (Image by Ufotable)

The first thing to keep in mind that Sorcadin “Archetypes” are not necessarily just about the Oaths and Origins, but also about their weapon of choice. In fact you could say that the ratings of your Oath and Origin have a lot to do with your combat style! The first question here is - are you going to go STR, or will you go DEX?

There are the following options for Sorcadins:

STR-Based Builds

Sword-and-Board
Great Weapon Master
Polearm Master*
Two-Weapon Fighting
*This rating assumes you are an Oathbreaker 7 or higher, with Aura of Hate. However, it is worth noting that Improved Divine Smite also works wonders with PAM, meaning you probably will want Oathbreaker 11. The thing is... if you’re going that far, going Pure Oathbreaker might be a pretty strong option as well, given how Supernatural Resistance and Dread Lord are so powerful abilities.

DEX-Based Builds

Sword-and-Board*
Two-Weapon Fighting
*Sky Blue or even Gold if it’s stat-rolling and you were lucky, or if your DM rules that the STR 13 requirement for Paladin multiclassing can be ignored. Blue if it’s point-buy and you’re going Half-Elf. It gets just a bit lower for other races, depending on your playstyle - this will be explained in “Race Evaluation (DEX)”.

In this guide, we will focus on STR S&B, GWM, and DEX S&B as the three core builds of Sorcadins (think of these as the “sub-classes” of the Paladin/Sorcerer). We will delve further into these three builds in the next part of this guide (“Weapon of Choice”), but please wait a moment before we get there.

Here, let’s first talk about whether to go STR or DEX, depending on your situation (stat-roll or point-buy).

After that, we’ll take a look at what ability scores are good for each type of build (STR or DEX).

And finally, this section will be concluded with a summary of which Races are good for STR and DEX builds each.

STR is, in all honesty, not a very good ability score on its own. What makes pumping STR a good idea is not the mechanical nature of the STR score itself, but the Feat options such as Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master that require high STR, as well as how the STR-based armor (Plate etc.) gives you high AC even without maximizing your STR score.

The only STR skill available is Athletics, which can come in handy if you want to grapple... But otherwise most of its uses can be substituted by Acrobatics. Forget about STR saving throws, because such things don’t really exist (well, technically they do, but pretty much they don’t).

All in all, it can be said that STR is normally a stat you take because you want to use the associated weapons. Greatsword damages better than DEX weapons and has the GWM feat to back it up. Glaives and Halberds are the weapon of choice for a towering sentinel. If you’re going Sword-and-Board, under normal circumstances, going DEX for the rapier is generally better than going STR and picking up a Longsword.

Then why is that the STR build is rated higher in here? That has to do with the multiclass nature of Paladins. It’s really tragic and honestly sucks, but we have to deal with it nonetheless.

In order to discuss more about that matter, let’s next think about the pros and cons of going DEX:

Pros

Better DEX saves (Duck out of a Dragon’s Breath. Compare with how STR saves are extremely uncommon)
Better Initiative (Self-explanatory.)
Stealth (One of the best skills, as well as one of the rare ones that mean something during combat.)

Cons

Lower AC (Plate needs only 15 STR for 18 AC. Leather has only 17 AC maximum, even with 20 DEX, and will actually be lower during gameplay, since your DEX will be around 16 to 18 for most of your career. Studded Leather or Mage Armor make stuff a bit better.)
Gets even more MAD (The worst part, and the reason why most people simply go STR. Will explain in more detail below...)

So now we can see that while DEX has some cons, it still has a lot of benefits compared to STR. Then shall we go DEX? The answer to that question is very simple.

If you rolled good with Point-Buy, feel free to go DEX all the way. It will work nuts.

Otherwise, it’s possible, but not as strong. However, it is decent, and not as bad as it seems on paper.

Of course, the problem lies in how multiclassing in or out of Paladin requires 13 STR. In point-buy, buying a STR of 13 already costs 5 points, leaving you with only 22 left. But you want a 16-start in DEX (it boosts both your attacks and your AC, as well as initiative), costing 9 points, so that’s that. You have only 13 points left to spend on CON, INT, WIS, and CHA. But you want high CON and CHA...

This will mean that if you wish to optimize a DEX Sorcadin in point-buy, your INT and WIS will most likely become 8 (or 9), and stay like that for the rest of your career. INT is fine. WIS is... It’s a bit of a pain, but not like it’s fatal. If your first level is in Paladin, you have proficiency with WIS saving throws, and remember, you’ll have Aura of Protection and Bless, so you can sorta get around deadly WIS-save effects. But you will need to leave Perception to your friends.

Anyhow, let’s crunch up some Half-Elves with 27-point-buy score for DEX Sorcadins:

CON-Based
Original Stats: 13-15-15-8-8-12
With Bonuses: 13-16-16-8-8-14

CHA-Based
Original Stats: 13-15-13-8-9-14
With Bonuses: 13-16-14-8-9-16

...Hmm?

I think you’ve come to realize: If you ignore INT and WIS, these stats aren’t really that bad. At leat not the disaster you’d been expecting. They’re actually good enough to do what they’re meant to do.

(It should be noted, though, that only Half-Elves can be truly optimized DEX Sorcadins in terms of stats).

The main problem about DEX Sorcadins will not be low starting stats, but rather the fact that they need some investment in DEX to be powerful - something that can come at the cost of lower CHA (less ASI boosts), meaning less benefits from Aura of Protection, and your spellcasting will not be nearly as good as in the case with Longsword builds (assuming your Longsword build invests in CHA mor than STR - which I believe is the generally better option).

Sure, you can go high CHA, but doing that lowers your DEX, meaning you will suffer from worse Initiative, less Stealthiness, and lower AC (light armor and Draconic Resilience look at your DEX for their good AC). You should invest at least 18 in DEX, possibly 20 as well.

However, since you are a Half-Elf and not Variant Human, you get only 4 ASIs throughout your entire career (Paladin 4, Sorcerer 4, Sorcerer 8, and Sorcerer 12) - possibly less if you Multiclass or anything. Two of them are already mandatory for their usage, namely War Caster and DEX +2, meaning you have only 2 free ASI/Feat slots. Longsword builds have a bit more wide options.

The benefits of DEX Sorcadin, like improved initiative, better DEX saves and Stealth will be very useful and powerful. However, it requires careful thought to be built as good as it can be.

All in all, you can say that while DEX Sorcadin can be powerful, in achieving that, your options are overall very narrowed down.
Ability Scores (STR Build)
Strength: UNLIMITED POWER!!!! That said, for Longsword builds, 16 is enough for a large part of your career, and you might actually want to pump CHA before this, though this depends largely on the type of build. Greatsword builds should try to get this to 20 as soon as possible (with the exceptions of Resilient, which is more important. Blade Mastery (UA) is also arguably better than STR +2 due to giving you advantage on opportunity attacks and giving you an extra +1 AC option (though it does use up your reaction).
Dexterity: It’s a common save, but remember, you have Aura of Protection. Point-Buyers can assign a 10 or even an 8 to this and call it a day. Bah, Stealth is for cowards - I will clink-clank-cling my way into the battlefields with my impenetrable heavy armor of bloodstained glory.
Constitution: The fact your hit points generally get lower than normal Paladins makes this a pretty important ability score, but given your lack of ASIs, I feel 16 is the right place to end this.
Intelligence: You don’t need to know the answer to one plus one. You do know by instinct that Paladin + Sorcerer = Win, though.
Wisdom: Aura of Protection, as well as Paladin proficiency, protects you from WIS saves well enough. Your dazzling sexiness beats the knowledge of wise sages.
Charisma: You’ve been born to be hot. Blazing hot. In fact you actually have the ability to churn your hotness into a gigantic ball of fire, and hurl it into an enemy horde, incinerating them on the spot. For Longsword builds, this stat is generally more important to you than Strength.

Ability Scores (DEX Build)
Strength: More of a wretched curse that you wish never existed than something you call an ability score. The fact you need 13 in this is nothing but a pain.
Dexterity: Probably overall the best stat in this edition. It’s your attacking stat, it directly connects to your AC, it gives you better initiative, it saves you from dragon breaths, and it even allows you to be stealthy. Starting with anything lower than 16 is unthinkable, and after you get War Caster, your next ASI should be used to pump this to 18. Next you can pump Charisma to 18, or alternatively, pump this to 20. This depends on your build, as well as personal preference.
Constitution: Since DEX builds are prone to getting AC lower than that of STR builds, having too low CON may make you a bit too squishy. However, CHA is very important for you as well due to spellcasting and Aura of Protection. Due to the point-buy nature of DEX builds, you may be forced to go with CON 14 for your entire career.
Intelligence: You’re already so awesome that you don’t even need to be smart.
Wisdom: Too bad point-buyers need to dump this, since WIS saves and Perception checks are common. At least you have Aura of Protection for the saves, though. Probably shouldn’t bother with Perception if your WIS score is 8, and just leave it to your friends.
Charisma: STR builds feature sexy, muscular men, but DEX builds let you create sexy, slender men, or perhaps even that particular super-powerful bishoujo character you wanted to use all this time. IT IS TIME.
The first question is - are you using Point Buy, or are you using Stat-Rolls?

If it’s the latter, choose whatever race you want, it honestly doesn’t matter much. If you’re Point-Buying, though, race matters quite a lot.

The main problem Point-Buyers must face is the fact that you can only buy stats of up to 15, when you actually need a 16 to get a +3 bonus. This means that in order to start off your character with a stat of 16 or more, you need to first assign a 14 or 15 to that score, and proceed to pump it up with your Racial Bonus.

Getting a score of 16 at first level is important in how you either (a) don’t need to pump it up anymore using later ASIs, or (b) can more easily pump it up to 18 or even 20 later-on. Thus, you would want to increase at least two, and preferably all three of the “stats that are important for your build” (either STR, CON, CHA, or DEX, CON, CHA).

For STR builds, the difference between the races that can boost only two and those who can boots three is evident till the Sorcadin gains enough levels to get to his second ASI, which is when both become equally good (will be explained later).

Now, before race evaluation, let me explain the abbreviations:
SCAG: The Supplement “Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide”.
EE: Elemental Evil. The free PDF is up on the WotC (Wizard of the Coast) website.
UA: Unearthed Arcana. Free PDFs are up on the WotC (Wizard of the Coast) website.

An now that that’s over, let’s move on to take a look at the STR-friendly races and the DEX-friendly races.

NOTE: A lot of guides look through every single published (or introduced-by-UA) race, but here I will not do that, and instead only evaluate the options that are actually worth choosing. See, there’s not much meaning in explaining how Dwarves make terrible DEX Paladins.

Race Evaluation (STR Build)
If you’re gonna go STR, my advice is to buy the stats to be 15-8-15-8-8-15. It’s really eccentric, but that’s how direly you need the three main stats, and how useless the other three stats are for you. I think we’ve already covered why low DEX and WIS aren’t a problem in the “Ability Score Evaluation” section written above.

If you’re gonna choose a race which boosts all three main stats, that becomes 16-8-16-8-8-16 or something similar, and oh look at how beautiful it looks. You are a Deoxys.

http://static.tumblr.com/d2ac8dcca16975bc46700c6cae60065a/acnhznt/zBenqx1an/tumblr_static_863l9v09sps0o4sok0gs8sok4.gif
^ You are a Deoxys. ^
(Image Copyright Nintendo)

If you’re gonna choose a race which has +2 STR and +1 CON/CHA, with racial bonus, you’ll be something like 17-8-16-8-8-15 (this is taking the Half-Orc and Goliath as an example). Your first ASI/Feat will most likely be used for War Caster, but when the second one comes around the corner, use it for +1 STR and +1 CHA, giving you 18 STR, 16 CON, 16 CHA, which is totally beyond awesome, and also gets you on the same line as a Half-Elf or Variant Human which has +1 to all three major scores. If it’s +2 CHA and +1 CON or something (as in Abyssal Tieflings), just switch stuff around and you’ll get similar results.

Races that give +1/+1 like the Warforged are somewhat inferior in this regard (you can’t go 18-16-16 with just one ASI), which is really a shame since the Warforged has such an amazing racial ability (AC+1). We’ve placed him in the Blue rating. Sorry, Alphonse...

https://66.media.tumblr.com/62a27e302c93b244b6c99efc1ae96e4a/tumblr_nad08opqsV1shxu4jo1_500.gif
^ Poor Alphonse is sad that he didn’t get Sky Blue. Cheer up, Alphonse - we still love you, and you’re still a very good option! ^
(Image Copyright Hiromu Arakawa)

With that in mind, let’s look at the races (within each color, the order in which the races are listed is sorta random. Thus, the order in which they are listed has nothing to do with their power ranking within the specific color or anything).

Amazing
Half-Elf: I think I just said above something about how an option that increases all three of the “important stats” is really, really good. Half-Elves, on top of that, allow you to choose an extra two skills, adding you extra versatility. Arguably one of the best races this edition, and game design-wise it’s actually a shame this option exists, because it over-outshines so many other races that would have been chosen a lot more if not for this particular race. It’s honestly badly designed, and in fact you can even say it classifies as one of the benefits of playing a CHA-based class - but that characteristic also makes it an admittedly awesome option for Sorcadins.
Fey Ancestry is an often overlooked but still powerful ability that comes up every now and then. It shines most when the party caster doesn’t have to hesitate using Hypnotic Pattern on your area, because you get advantage on the save (since you have proficiency in the save, as well as Aura of Protection, and possibly Bless, it’s really rare for you to be affected). At low levels, the fact you don’t get unconscious from the party caster’s Sleep spell is also damn nice.
If you have the SCAG, you can forego your two skill proficiencies to instead gain the bonus of a particular elf race. A moving speed of 35 ft, an extra Cantrip (you should most likely choose Booming Blade since it doesn’t have to do with your spellcasting modifier - High Elf Cantrips look at INT), and Drow Magic are especially interesting options for a STR Sorcadin.
If you know your campaign is going to end before you get your second ASI (which is when Half-Orcs, Goliaths and such catch up to 18-16-16), Half-Elves and the Variant Human with three +1s become hands down Gold. It’s also worth mentioning that with Half-Elf and the three-bonus Variant Human, pumping CHA before STR becomes viable. Whether to take that choice depends on your playstyle, build mechanics, and personal preference.
Variant Human (@Boost to all 3 stats): Everybody knows Variant Humans are boss, but what makes this option truly wonderful for Sorcadins is that you can choose a Feat that increases the one important stat you couldn’t pump with the racial bonus, which pretty much allows you to buff all three important stats and also gain a neat extra bonus. How awesome is that? Let’s look at the candidates:
Off the top of my head, you can get Resilient (CON) to get better at not only WIS saves, but also CON saves (and concentration), or you can go Heavy Armor Master to become even more tanky. Actor and Durable also apply from the PHB, while UA gives us Gourmand and Master of Disguise.
Actor and Master of Disguise will be more about role-playing than combat, but depending on what sort of person you want to portray your character as, they can be really fitting, as well as extremely useful in certain campaigns. Gourmand basically makes you a character who came jumping out of the Dungeon Meshi manga and sorta defines what sort of character you’ll be (as well as most likely his background profession), but as a DM I love it when imaginative adventurers cook their own meals and explain their monstrous recipes in great detail (I’ve bumped into a particular player who does that really well, and indeed, his character has Gourmand). It also increases the healing capacities of the entire team, and will make your party love you. Durable allows you to heal maximum HP every time you use up a Sorcerer Hit Die, and generally makes you better at resting... But nothing really interesting here.
Just like Half-Elves, if you’re certain you’re not gonna get your second ASI, this race choice becomes Gold. And Variant Humans can also get facial plastic surgery (plus to CHA) before going to the training gym (plus to STR), while Half-Orcs and Goliaths and their lot always need to do it the other way around.
Variant Human (@GWM or PAM builds): Though this option doesn’t give you pluses in three ability scores, Variant Human serves as the savior of GWM and PAM builds, allowing them easier access to their core feats. Leave CON to be 15, and later boost it using Resilient (CON) to make the best GWM or PAM Sorcadin build possible.
To be honest, given how it’s so strong, this is almost mandatory for GWM builds. This build is always 2 STR ahead of the other options, assuming all races try to eventually get CON 16 and CHA 16 (which they should), meaning it’s the most optimized race option for GWM and PAM builds by far.

Pretty Damn Good
Variant Human (Otherwise): Buff two stats of your choice, and get a Skill and a Feat? Sure, why not. The really annoying problem here is that if you start Paladin, you can’t choose War Caster, which is what you actually want the most - and starting Sorcerer just for first-level War Caster is honestly not a very good choice, due to the devastating lack of Heavy Armor proficiency. Of course you’re not gonna waste an upcoming ASI for Heavily Armored, are you?
Now, if you’re gonna take Variant Human for a Sorcadin, I really, and I mean really do suggest you take a Feat that also boosts a stat that means something to you, but it’s not like taking the other options will be fatal or anything, they’re still pretty damn good.
Alert really helps by taking care of the weaknesses of this build, which are your pretty bad initiative bonus and your absolutely abysmal Passive Perception score that makes others think you’ve probably been just poking your nose all this time - it’s really synergetic in that sense, covering up all your weaknesses. You definitely count as an Inspiring Leader, since you’re both really manly and sexy, and on top of that you’re also a f***ing Legendary Pokémon. Apart from that, you’re also pretty damn Lucky to become one of the most awesome builds in the world’s greatest roleplaying game©.

http://pldh.net/media/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/386-attack.gif
^ You are a f***ing Legendary Pokémon. ^
(Image Copyright Nintendo)
Mage Slayer, Martial Adept, and Mounted Combatant make pretty interesting choices, probably focusing more on character personality/background, or a certain “theme” or “feel”, but still pretty useful under the right circumstances. These are not really over-the-top amazing, but still definitely good choices. Especially Mounted Combatant - they’re pretty rare to see in actual games, and you can’t just pull it off 100% of the time, but advantage on all your attacks is no joke.
And finally, Blade Mastery (UA) gives you +1 to hit and +1 AC using a reaction, not to mention advantage on opportunity attacks, which is arguably better than +2 STR, depending on your build.
Half-Orc: Copy-Pasting from “Neutral 1”: It boosts your two main stats, has darkvision, makes you extra aggressive with critical hits, gives you proficiency with a skill you’re gonna be super excellent at, and allows you to recover from fainting once per day. Everything in this package is wonderful for a Sorcadin, and it’s no wonder that the sample character shown in the first page of “Paladin” in the PHB is a Half-Orc. Actually, Half-Orcs make better Sorcadins than Paladins, since the “Relentless Endurance” emergency button is more important to someone with lower HP. (Copy-Paste ends here) I don’t have much to add here, because the above passage is so well written. I wonder who wrote it.
However, do note that for Longsword builds, getting 18 STR is not as important as getting 18 CHA, meaning that these bonuses are not ideal. And as mentioned above, Greatsword builds can benefit more from Variant Human due to how they get GWM earlier, and as a result, are always 2 STR ahead of the other races (this stands even if you have a +2 instead of +1 STR boost).
Overall this is not the “best” option, but still a very powerful one if you’re interested.
Dragonborn: Any race that has +2 to either your STR or CHA and also gives a +1 to STR, CON, or CHA automatically becomes Blue or higher for STR Sorcadins. While not as synergetic as Half-Orc or Goliath, Dragonborn is still a decent choice.
Dragonborn have resistance to one energy type of your choice (Fire will probably be your best option, due to how often it comes up, but depending on the nature of the campaign the other colors could be better), which can occasionally save your neck - ironically, it works best if you’re fighting a Dragon of the same color as you. The Breath Weapon is honestly not that important, but better than having nothing. All in all, not bad, and can especially be thematically cool for Draconic Sorcerer builds.
Duergar (SCAG): I have mixed feelings about this guy. On the bright side (I know, Duergar hate bright places, but still), he has Superior Darkvision and Duergar Magic, the former allowing you to cast spells at range in dark places (you can’t target people you can’t see), and the latter giving you two extra spells (Enlarge is honestly useless given Concentration issues, but free Invisibility is nice), both of which are goddamn useful for you. However, his racial bonuses are STR +1, CON +2, which makes this a meh choice for Greatsword builds (not that anything besides V-Human is truly optimized for them in the first place, but still). And Sunlight Sensitivity is a really, really, badly designed feature. Not badly designed because it’s a weakness for you, it’s badly designed because it makes your DM worry whether it’s okay to make you fight in daylight or not. Certain DMs, like me, hate punishing players for their thematic decisions - in which case we need to either (i) keep you in dark places most of the time, or (ii) homebrew the Sunlight Sensitivity into something less penalizing. I prefer the second option, but anyhow, the thing I wanna say is that choosing Duergar (or Drow) forces the DM to make hard decisions. Together with the fact that Duergar are generally depicted as hard-working but grim and tyrannical fellow, you should ask your DM in advance before using one, as well as question how he will (or will not) work around the Sunlight Sensitivity problem.
Goliath (EE): Again, Copy-Pasting from “Neutral 1”: Apart from having the same stat bonuses as Half-Orcs, [Goliaths] can reduce the damage you take by 1d12+CON per short rest, which is basically the same thing as being able to heal your HP by 10-ish per short rest by just using a Reaction. That said, this “Stone’s Endurance” ability might compete with the Shield spell for your defensive reaction, so make sure to decide wisely - which to use, at what moment. Ending a short rest without using this ability will make you regret it. (Copy-Paste ends here) I don’t have much to add here, because again, the above passage is so well written. Geez, I really wonder who in the world wrote it.
However, as in the case with Half-Ors, do note that for Longsword builds, getting 18 STR is not as important as getting 18 CHA, meaning that these bonuses are not ideal. And as mentioned above, Greatsword builds can benefit more from Variant Human due to how they get GWM earlier, and as a result, are always 2 STR ahead of the other races (this stands even if you have a +2 instead of +1 STR boost).
Overall this is not the “best” option, but still a very powerful one if you’re interested.
Abyssal Tiefling (UA): This guy is interesting in how his racial spells change every day. I’d love to make him a Wild Magic Sorcerer just to emphasize the random and chaotic feel - it’s admittedly not the most optimized option available, but it’ll be fun.
Almost all of the spells you get from the random spell list are pretty strong, with some candidates like Cure Wounds, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter and Mirror Image being especially awesome, but the fact they change around every day makes it difficult to rely upon them constantly. You also can’t get the same spell two days in a row, so if you get Mirror Image on a particular day, you can’t have it tomorrow. Sadface. (Looking at it the other way, you don’t get a bad or semi-inferior option two days in a row either.)
Abyssal Fortitude isn’t that much of a bonus. That said, it is a bonus, so it’s good, and you should thankfully take it. You’re a frontline fighter, so you need that HP, and it might just save your skin.
Warforged (UA, Eberron): Being an Eberron class, not all campaigns will allow Alphonse to join as an adventurer. You should consult your DM before using this race, including the possibility to re-fluff it to become something else that fits into the campaign setting.
+1 STR and +1 CON is good,but not ideal for the reasons already explained. That said, the Composite Plating racial ability that gives you a +1 AC bonus is beyond amazing for Sorcadins, or any melee character really, and it’s still a very good race option. Living Construct is useful for certain special situations in how you don’t need food or drink, but unlike Alphonse you can eat an apple pie if you wish. However, just like Alphonse, you are fully aware of your surroundings even when you “sleep” (or just stop moving at midnight) - perhaps creative DMs might have you look at or overhear some plot clues during this “inactive period”, like you hear a group of people talking about an important plot device or something - that way you can feel special about being a Warforged. The part about not getting diseased is honestly not that important for you, since you already have that as a level 3 Paladin ability.

Decent
Mountain Dwarf: The only race that gives you +2 to two ability scores. Sadly, it’s not really something to be overly excited over in point-buy, where the maximum you can buy is 15 anyways, meaning it’s impossible for you to get 18 STR at your starting level. For other melee classes this is a good option, but for Sorcadins it’s meh - the only advantage this race has to the Sky Blue ones is how it gives you 10 WIS instead of 8, or how you can possibly later take a Feat that also boosts one of your main stats, but the former is unrequired for reasons already mentioned, and if you want the latter, you should just go Variant Human. The armor and weapon proficiencies are really useless because you already have it from being a Paladin, and the tools and skill bonuses are... Not really bad to have, but not really useful either, being either too situational or related to a dump stat.
Standard Human: +1 to everything does belong in the “+3 to all important stats” box, but sadly, if you want just that, Sky Blue Variant Human is strictly better, meaning there is not a single reason to take this race. Having the 8s in your DEX, INT and WIS turn into 9s will not even result in a bonus in your DEX or WIS save. Do not take this race. The only reason it belongs in “Decent” is because there are even worse options, and the fact still remains that taking this race will give you absolutely no benefits.
Earth Genasi (EE): +1 STR and +2 CON is not bad, but still meh for the reasons already explained in Duergar. Earth Walk is situational but occasionally useful, especially for creative DMs (creative DMs generally like using various sorts of difficult terrain), while Merge With Stone is pretty good - Pass Without Trace is a very versatile spell. Depending on the nature of a campaign, a particular situation, or your party composition (to be more precise, if your party includes an Assassin), this ability can skyrocket to Sky Blue, in which case this race also becomes upgraded to Blue. This race’s power heavily relies on whether you’ll be able to find and determine the right timing to activate the Merge With Stone ability.
Race Evaluation (DEX Build)
The first thing to put in mind is that even DEX builds are required to have 13 STR, no matter how useless it may be. While this may make it seem like it’s a good idea to boost your STR using racial bonuses, you should actually refrain from this.

This is because buying lower stats requires less points than when you’re buying higher stats. For instance, if you wanted 16 STR and 14 CON (for a STR build), Half-Orcs (STR +2, CON +1) require you to buy one “14” and one “13”, which add up to 7+5=12 points. If you went Earth Genasi (STR +1, CON +2), you need to buy one “15” and one “12”, which add up to 9+4=13 points. The difference may be just one point, but this will eventually start to affect your character’s power level. Do keep this sort of calculation in mind, and just focus on your three core stats.

Due to the sheer MADness of the DEX Sorcadin, the ideal choice of race is something that can boost all your DEX, CON and CHA, preferably one of them being a +2 (hint: Half-Elves), and because of the horrendously heavy Point-Buy tax, this is more important for you than it is for STR builds.

In fact, you can even say that if you’re going to optimize DEX Sorcadin in point-buy, you need to be an Half-Elf. It sounds ridiculous, it certainly is ridiculous, and it honestly sucks as a fact, but it’s true. If you’re angry about it, try to think it this way - Bladesingers are restricted to Elves for no real reason besides fluff. And Battleragers are also restricted to Dwarves for no real reason besides fluff! There’s no real problem with there being a class restricted to Half-Elves, right?

...Right...?

Well, let me first explain. This is because it’s generally a really good idea as a DEX Sorcadin to get a 16 in all of DEX and CHA, and if possible, CON as well. Half-Elves and Standard Humans are the only races that can achieve this with just one ASI. All the other races require 2 or more ASIs to get to these ability scores, which pretty much means the same thing as that the races except Half-Elves and Standard Humans have an ASI tax.

Then, are Standard Humans good? Yeah, they’re good. But then again, there is absolutely no reason to choose it over Half-Elf, since two skills are better than zero, and also, Fey Ancestry is a thing. The only real “merit” Standard Humans have compared to Half-Elves is how they have 9 INT and 9 WIS... except oh wait, that doesn’t really count as a merit since it’s an uneven number. BYE STANDARD HUMAN!!

Let's get honest - it’s really, really difficult to create a strong non-Half Elf DEX Sorcadin build with 27-point buy.

https://67.media.tumblr.com/0bfc94583155e78f16f2aaa159329f00/tumblr_mpmgq6BXx51s2sd60o1_400.gif
^ It’s not like being a Half-Elf is a bad thing or anything. I mean, if you think you’re born between these two, Half-Elves suddenly start to become really appealing. ^

Now, what we must keep in mind is that even Half-Elves cannot get 16-16-16 from first level. There are two ways to go with Half-Elves:

CON
Original Stats: 13-15-15-8-8-12
With Bonuses: 13-16-16-8-8-14

CHA
Original Stats: 13-15-13-8-9-14
With Bonuses: 13-16-14-8-9-16

Either works, but I think CHA is more important.

Either way, your first ASI will be spent on War Caster, while your second one will probably be used for +2 DEX due to AC issues.

But what if you want to use a different race, like a +2/+1 one?

The answer is actually that there isn’t a +2/+1 race worth taking for DEX builds. But anyways, let’s build a sample DEX Sorcadin with a Lightfoot Halfling (DEX +2, CHA +1) to see how you’ll be buying things for a +2/+1 race (to see why they’re not that attractive). There’ll be roughly two options:

Option 1 (CHA-Heavy)
Original Stats: 13-14-13-8-8-15
With Bonuses: 13-16-13-8-8-16
After one ASI: 13-18-13-8-8-16 or 13-16-14-8-8-16

Option 2 (CON Semi-Heavy)
Original Stats: 13-14-15-8-8-13
With Bonuses: 13-16-15-8-8-14
After one ASI: 13-16-15-8-8-16 or 13-16-16-8-8-14

Option 1 is when you buy a 15 for the stat for which you already have a +1 racial bonus.
Option 2 is when you buy a 15 for the stat for which you don’t have a +1 racial bonus.

Either way, you need 2 ASIs to get to 16-16-16.

Of course, it’s a very much possible choice to stop CON at 14 and improve your other stats (DEX increases your AC, DEX saves, and initiative, making you overall better at not taking damage, while CHA increases your saving throw bonus with Aura of Protection, this including concentration saves).

Now, I mentioned in the STR builds column that you should get a race that improves at least two of your main stats at +2/+1, but this does always stand for DEX builds. Races that go +1 DEX/+1 CON or CHA, or those who go +2 DEX/+0 (this includes races such as Feral Tieflings where the +1 bonus goes to somewhere that’s not DEX, CON or CHA) are actually not so bad. Let’s look at them, using Changeling and Feral Tieflings as examples:

Changelings (DEX +1, CHA +1)
Original Stats: 13-15-14-8-9-13
With Bonuses: 13-16-14-8-9-14

Feral Tieflings (DEX +2, INT +1)
Original Stats: 13-14-14-9-8-14
With Bonuses: 13-16-14-10-8-14

...Which means that the number of ASIs you need is actually not different from a +2/+1 race. The only way in which the +2/+1 races is superior is that it’s possible for them to get a half-feat (a feat that also gives you a +1 bonus) like Resilient (CON) to get an extra bonus on top of their ASI, but certain races have enough racial bonuses to make up for that and make it a pretty good option.

Now let’s move on to race evaluation with that in mind.

Amazing
Half-Elf: For reasons mentioned, this is the number-one option for any 27-point-buy DEX Sorcadin by far. Everything else is a secondary option, which really sucks, but it’s also a fact.
Apart from its wonderful stat bonuses that verge on being downright overpowered, Fey Ancestry gives you nice extra benefits that can occasionally save your neck. As explained in STR builds, it shines most when the party caster doesn’t have to hesitate using Hypnotic Pattern on your area, because you get advantage on the save (since you have proficiency in the save, as well as Aura of Protection, and possibly Bless, it’s really rare for you to be affected). At low levels, the fact you don’t get unconscious from the party caster’s Sleep spell is also damn nice.
If you have the SCAG, you can forego your two skill proficiencies to instead gain the bonus of a particular elf race. A moving speed of 35 ft, an extra Cantrip (you should most likely choose Booming Blade since it doesn’t have to do with your spellcasting modifier - High Elf Cantrips look at INT), and Drow Magic are good options for both STR and DEX Sorcadins, but apart from that, the Wood Elf’s Mask of the Wild can become an amazing option for DEX builds due to how it greatly increases your stealthiness, something unique to DEX Sorcadins.

Different Options
(These can differentiate themselves from Half-Elves)
Changeling (UA): This is a rare case where the racial ability is so strong that it stands as a valid contestant as a DEX Sorcadin race. It’s originally an Eberron race, but with DM approval you can easily change it to a simple Doppelganger for most campaigns.
Always being able to polymorph into anyone you’ve seen is an amazing ability that can be hilarious in many RP situations - or even combat situations if you do the right research and role-playing. You can prove an invaluable asset to any team, unless the only type of campaign your table plays is Hack and Slash against a bunch of mindless minions. Using illusion spells whenever necessary to cover up your lies is a good idea, so make sure to take Minor Illusion. Friends is another godly option, and depending on how your DM rules the wording of the spell in a way that is beneficial for you (if he thinks that the target of Friends gets angry at the person who you were polymorphed as), you can get several enemies into trouble at the same time. Lucky for you, Sorcerers get 4 cantrips from level 1, so you don’t need to worry about cantrip-choosing like Bards, Druids or Warlocks. This race is absolutely terrifying in any city campaign. It’s also a solid choice for Assassin multiclass builds.
Winged Feral Tiefling (SCAG): +2 DEX +1 INT is not that bad for reasons explained above. Being able to fly around and having Fire Resistance makes this a solid option that can differentiate itself from Half-Elves.
Aarakocra (EE): You’re restricted to Light Armor, but DEX +2 is good, and +1 WIS makes it possible for you to have 10 WIS, making you slightly wiser than most other Sorcadins - despite the unignorable fact you have the head of a gigantic bird. But what truly makes this race amazing is the flying speed of 50 ft. Be faster than any other guy in the party (except maybe a high-level Monk), and be also able to fly around. The fact you’re mostly Melee is sorta anti-synergetic though.

Not Bad
Air Genasi (EE): DEX +1 CON +2 is alright. Being able to cast Levitate once per long rest is not particularly powerful, but not weak either - with a failed save, you can suspend an enemy melee character into the air while your concentration lasts, making it a poor man’s Banishment.
Beasthide Shifter (UA): Eberron race. DEX +1 CON +1 is nothing truly interesting, but the AC +1 (not that you constantly have it) is certainly nice.

Not Bad, but Better Options (Half-Elves) Exist
Drow: These guys have the same Sunlight Sensitivity problem as the one explained in Duergar (in “Race Evaluation (STR build)”), so you should talk over with your DM in advance about how he will handle this problem. However, the drow also have access to Faerie Fire, a truly wonderful spell, so if your DM is willing to permit it, it’s not a bad option.
That said, now again, the SCAG variant Half-Elf also has access to those Drow spells and...
Variant Human: The fact you can’t go 8-15-15-8-8-15 is really painful, but still not a bad choice (not a good one either, given the existence of Half-Elves). Some candidates for the Feat include Medium Armor Master (good AC while being stealthy is a large benefit for you), Lucky (always worth it), and Blade Mastery (+1 to hit, advantage on opportunity attacks and +1 AC using a reaction - what’s not to love?).
Just do remember that you have an ASI tax, meaning that most of the time, Half-Elves can actually do the job better if the need arises.
Standard Human: Reasons why this is strictly inferior have already been explained.
Lightfoot Halfling: Protect yourself from natural 1s and be extra stealthy. It’s one of the ways to be good at ambushing - just do remember that Half-Elves can also do that by choosing the Wood Elf ability variant.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 09:49 AM

I have created over a thousand blades
Possible Party Roles of a Sorcadin

http://giffiles.alphacoders.com/124/12452.gif
The correct way to create difficult terrain.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

Anyone who has played D&D and other games of the genre for some time have probably heard of the terms such as the “Tank”, “Striker”, “Blaster”, “Healer”, “Buffer”, “Debuffer”, “Field Controller”, and “Party Face”. But since I suppose not all people have heard of them, I will explain: these are some examples of the Party Roles that the respective player characters represent and fill.

For instance, a Barbarian makes a wonderful “Tank” (frontline warrior that acts as a damage sponge and protects the backrow while dealing good amounts of melee damage). Meanwhile, a Life Cleric can be a good “Healer” (the meaning is the same as the normal English term), saving the group from getting on too-low HP.

It is possible for a particular character to have several party roles at once. For instance, Bards make excellent Buffers with Bardic Inspiration, but at the same time they can also use spells like Vicious Mockery and Hypnotic Pattern to Debuff, Cure Wounds to heal, and the Expertise ability to be an ideal Party Face. If he took spells like Conjure Animals with Magical Secrets he can also be an amazing Controller. However, in exchange for their amazing versatility, Bards are generally the worst class when it comes to dealing direct damage.

It is crucial for an adventuring party to have at least a certain level of balance with these party roles. For instance, if no one is a Tank, the party will easily get crippled by monsters with high DPR (damage-per-round), since no one can protect the backrow 3 Wizards and 2 Sorcerers. If no one in the party can heal, they may suffer from a lot more fatalities than the average party, since if someone drops to 0 HP, there’s no way to bring him back except praying to the gods that he does not fail his Death Saves (now, if I[ happened to DM a party where there’s no healers, I will probably try to compensate for their decisions by giving them more Healing Potions than normal, but not all DMs do that). If no one can neither buff nor debuff, the party has no methods to defeat stronger enemies, such as boss monsters.

One reason the Sorcadin is so powerful is that it has a lot of possible Roles it can fill. It can be a good tank if it wants. It can deal good magical damage if it wants. It can buff, it can debuff, it can heal, it can control, and it can even become a party face with its high CHA.

It is possible for a Sorcadin to be good at all of them, and also be amazing at some of them. However, sadly, it is not possible for the Sorcadin to be amazing at all of these at once.

This is where the problem of very limited Metamagic and Sorcerer Spell options comes in. While I do not believe pure Sorcerers are underpowered like many say, it certainly is an undeniable fact that Sorcerers get the least spells known of all full Casters, and that they also get only 2 to 4 Metamagic Options, making the things a particular Sorcerer can do somewhat limited. While Sorcerers can be good at filling any Caster role they want, it’s impossible for one Sorcerer to be the best at everything. Each Sorcerer needs to focus on several concepts - party roles - to become truly effective.

This applies to Sorcadins too. Most of your roles become truly applicable by utilizing the ever-amazing Metamagic, but it frankly is not possible to take all the Metamagic options and all the Sorcerer spells. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO FILL ALL OF THE PARTY ROLES LISTED BELOW, AND YOU MUST CHOOSE WHAT YOUR BUILD WILL BE GOOD AT. Focusing on particular jobs will make you better at them, and also better as an optimized build. This especially stands for the lower levels, where you get only two Metamagic options and a very small number of spells known - as you level up, you may become able to fill more and more roles, and eventually get good at most, or possibly even all of them, depending on your build.

So, now that that’s all explained, let’s take a look at the party roles that a Sorcadin can possibly fill. Here I also listed the abilities and options that will help you fill that role, and to make things easier for beginners, I also talked a bit about the other classes that fill the same role. This way, if you’re jumping into a party where several other players have already decided their classes, it becomes easier for you to choose your options in a way that improves the overall balance of the party. It’s not like having three Buffers in the party will be bad, but if there’s no Debuffer yet, you might as well become one (not that that sort of situation will come up often...).

Here I will list the Tank, Healer, Buffer, Debuffer, Field Controller, and Party Face as possible roles of the Sorcadin.

Tank
What is a Tank?
A tank is a frontline warrior that is good at defense (and most of the time, offense as well). Tanks are crucial for the party in how they act as “damage sponges”, or “meat shields” (whichever you want to call them) that take on the melee attacks of the enemy monsters and protect the Wizards and other full Casters in your party that have very low HP.

The job of tanks is to keep the enemies near you and not allow them to reach the backrow. This is done by engaging in melee range with the enemies; if an enemy attempts to go out of your melee range, it will result in an opportunity attack, and this means that generally, once you and your enemies are locked in melee, your enemies will try not to turn their backs on you.

If there is no tank in the party, the enemies will come straight for the backrow casters and immediately tear them all to shreds, resulting in a way-too-easy TPK. Your entire body is a shield that protects your friends from this brutal fate.

Tanks should have high AC and HP, and if possible, certain resources that bolster their defenses even more. Having good damage-inflicting capabilities also helps, because the faster you kill your enemies, the less damage you take.

How to be a Tank
Obviously, having good AC and HP help a lot. Spells like Mirror Image, the Defense fighting style, and other various options listed in the “Neutral 1” section of “Pros and Cons” also count as abilities that make you a better tank. For DEX builds, going Draconic Sorcerer or obtaining studded leather armor helps.

If you focus on the part about locking your enemies into melee range, Oath of the Crown has a powerful level 3 Channel Divinity ability, Champion Challenge, which stops the enemies around you from going far away from you. This way, even if you use up your reaction with spells like Shield, you can make sure your enemies will not go for your party’s backrow.
Champion Challenge works especially if your defensive capabilities are high. If you’re not very good at defending, or if your HP is already pretty low when you use it, it may actually result in you getting knocked out.

Careful Spell + Web allows you to lock down all the enemies in a semi-large area, and also debuff at the same time. This helps when it comes to protecting the backrow - which is, as already explained, the role you want to play as a Tank.

Booming Blade + War Caster is a combination all S&B Sorcadins should get, but the reason it’s so good is because it makes your enemies think twice... or thrice... before turning their backs on you. Again, this makes you a good tank.

Another thing to note is that if you’re affected by a detrimental condition (poisoned, charmed, paralyzed, restrained etc.) your abilities are a tank are severely weakened, or at times, nullified. If you’re poisoned or restrained, disadvantage on opportunity attacks can be enough to make your opponents think they can leave you alone and head for the backrow casters. If you’re paralyzed... Well, they might still attack you alright, but chances are, you’d be knocked out in the process.

This means that going Paladin 6 for Aura of Protection is near-mandatory if you want to create a tanky Sorcadin build. Paladin 6 gives you not only Aura of Protection, but also boosts your Lay on Hands, allows you to make Extra Attacks for when Green-Flame Blade does not work (no two enemies standing next to each other - increasing DPR is a good thing for tank builds), and on top of that gives you the Aid spell, which can heal and increase your (and your friends’) maximum HP at the same time. Not to mention, every level in Paladin gives you 2 extra HP compared to when you go Sorcerer, and you also get d10 Hit Die instead of d6 Hit Die when it comes to healing from short rests. All in all, it makes you really solid as a Tank.

If your DM constantly pits you against Casters and other enemies that use magic to come damage you, Ancients Paladin 7 can be good as well for increasing your tankiness, having resistance to damage from spells.

Paladin 9 also helps you be a tank, especially with the level 3 spell Aura of Vitality. Personally I feel 6/14 is the best option for normal tank Sorcadins, but Paladin 9 also opens up other options for certain builds, so if you have something nasty in mind, it’s worth it. (One example is an Oathbreaker with Animate Dead for empowered undead minions.)

Other Tanky Characters
Now, unlike how it’s possible in other class roles to have an “overdose” (for instance, having 6 party faces is really redundant - it’s better to have a smart guy or a wise guy instead of 6 celebrities), there can be any number of tanks in your party and you can call it a day, so long as there is a Caster or two who does his/her job right. However, if there are already a good number of Tanks in your party, it’s possible to consider going 2/18 over 6/14 (especially if there’s not many Casters) to buff them. On the other hand, always having friends to buff with Aura of Protection is alluring indeed as well...

As a general rule, the d10 and d12 classes make good tanks (the reason you can be a tank without that much HP is the amazing versatility and defensive capabilities of spells). This means there’s the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger. Some Fighters and Rangers utilize archery, meaning they will stay in mid-range rather than stand on the frontlines, though.

Looking at the unique ones:

The Bear Totem Barbarian is the ultimate tank in the current system of 5e. They get not only the best HP of all classes - they also have the super-powerful Rage ability, that gives them resistance to almost all damage.

Eldritch Knights (a sub-class of Fighter) also make especially powerful tanks, because just like you, they get to use spells like Shield and Mirror Image to buff their defensiveness.

Moon Druids can use Wildshape to acquire gigantic loads of a temporary HP-esque something, making them good tanks as well.

And while they do not have as much core HP, Bladelock builds (Fighter 1 / Blade Warlock X) are also good tanks, since they can use eldritch invocations like Fiendish Vigor and spells like Armor of Agathys, as well as abilities like Dark One’s Blessing, to boost their tankiness. Bladelocks are a rather unique tank build in how they utilize temporary HP to tank, but they’re sure good at it.
Healer
What is a Healer?
A healer is, by definition, a character who heals people. Again obviously, having a healer will be beneficial for the party in how it will quite diminish the fatality rates of the characters.

Now, have one Healer in the party, and most people don’t have to be afraid of dying, but there’s still the risk of having the Healer drop to 0 HP first, in which case the situation suddenly turns quite dire. Have two Healers in the party and it becomes much, much better. Three may be an overdose if you’re heavily investing for it, but lucky for you, Paladins get it by default (Lay on Hands) and having another option (Cure Wounds) isn’t that taxing either, so there’s not much reason for you to not fancy being one yourself.

Healing should not be done during combat - at least, ideally. It’s better to first kill off all the enemies and then start the healing, because otherwise you lose combat turns and makes the combat drag on longer (which can result in actually taking more damage). However, if a friend has dropped to 0 HP, it will be a good choice to heal him back so he can get awake and take actions too, improving the number of actions your party can take per round.

Since healing is done mainly as an action to help dying friends, abilities like the Fighter’s Second Wind or spells like Armor of Agathys are usually not regarded as the abilities/spells of a “Healer”, even if they are “healing” abilities.

How to be a Healer
You don’t need to try to be a Healer, because, as already mentioned, you are a Healer by default. The Lay on Hands ability of Paladins will heal at least 10 HP per long rest - this should be used for healing conditions or diseases, or bringing back people from 0 HP - but apart from that, you should also take Cure Wounds as a Paladin spell.

If you’re going Paladin 6, Aid becomes another good healing option, while you can heal 30 HP per long rest with Lay on Hands (yay!)

And going Paladin 9 gives you the Aura of Vitality spell, and oh boy is this gorgeous. You get to heal 20d6=70 HP average with a level 3 slot (compare this to how a level 3 Cure Wounds can heal only about 3d8+5 =18.5 HP).
If you want, you can also use the Extended Spell Metamagic option to double the healing to 40d6=140. However, you get only a very small number fo Metamagic options, so you might want to think twice before doing so. It’s a really fun combo though...

Polymorph is a unique Healing spell in its own way. It gives a gigantic load of temporary HP-esque something to a friend by bundling him into the bulky costume of a T-Rex. You could use it on a frontline friend who’s getting low on HP but still wants to tank.

Other Healer Characters
Life Clerics heal better than any other class, but you don’t need that much healing to be a Healer. Having Cure Wounds or Healing Word is enough to classify yourself one.

Looking at full casters, Bards and Druids have both Cure Wounds and Healing Word, while the spell list of Clerics is obviously packed with healing spells, among many others.
Looking at half-casters, Pure Paladins have Lay on Hands and Cure Wounds (as well as Aid and Aura of Vitality at higher levels), while Rangers have Goodbery and Cure Wounds.

Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Rogues, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards do not have methods of healing their friends, with the exception of Favored Soul Sorcerers and Theurgy Wizards, both new and only half-official options from UA.

Overall you can see that five of the twelve classes can be Healers, while the other seven cannot. Approximately half of the classes can be healers.

Buffer
What is a Buffer?
A Buffer is a character who empowers his allies (or himself if he wants), normally through the usage of Buffing Spells. Some of the best Buffing Spells are Bless, Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph (all of which you get). It’s something of a shame that Sorcerers don’t get True Polymorph nor Foresight (that would have been amazing for 2/18 builds!), but eh, you’d have to deal with it.

Buff spells are usually used on frontline warriors to bolster their attacks and/or defenses, making it easier for them to smash their enemies apart. Even something as simple as “+1d4 to hit” or “advantage on attacks” can make a difficult fight become really easy.

Without a Buffer, your party may run into situations where a particular enemy is so strong it’s difficult to take him down, unless you expend a lot of resources in the process. While it’s not required for a party to be good, it does make your party better. A lot better.

Buffing gets especially good if your party includes a lot of guys that especially benefit from being buffed, like the Rogue who’s declaring he will marry Greater Invisibility, or the Barbarian who gets so happy he forgets the reason for his rage every time he’s targeted by Haste.

And remember: since you have Metamagic, your buffing is better than normal. You can do this job better than a Bard or a Wizard - not as versatile, but much more straightforwardly effective.

How to be a Buffer
A majority of the powerful buffing spells can target only 1 creature, and at the same time, require concentration. This means that while you’re buffing someone, you cannot use other concentration spells (doing so will end the buff), and also that you cannot buff several friends at once, unless it’s a special spell like Bless. But if given the opportunity, you’d obviously want to buff multiple allies instead of just one, right?

Here, Metamagic kicks in to save the day.

Consider the Twinned Spell Metamagic option to be mandatory if you want to be a good Buffer as a Sorcadin. This Metamagic option does not have a lot of synergetic spells at low Sorcerer levels (Suggestion and Phantasmal Force come up to mind, but that’s pretty much it), but once you get to the level 3 and 4 spells, aforementioned Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph come jumping into your Spells Ready list. Twinning these spells is truly an amazing trick up your sleeve, and something only Sorcerers can do.

However, be aware that Twinned Spell is the most costly Metamagic option, requiring a number of sorcery points equal to the level of the spell you Twin. Overuse will result in using up all your Sorcery Points, so use it with caution.

Twinned Spell also works with certain devastating damage spells like Disintegrate or Finger of Death. Again, it does cost some load of Sorcery Points, though.

Due to using up a lot of Sorcery Points, and due to how the best buffing spells require some investment in Sorcerer levels to be gained access, Paladin 2/ Sorcerer X is a good option for you if you’ve decided that Buffing is your thing. You want those good Buffing spells as soon as possible. After you’ve got to Sorcerer 8, you can perhaps go back to Paladin if you want, but since Sorcery Points (and slots) increase lots with Sorcerer levels, you just might as well stay with going Sorcerer all the way from there. Either works.

Other Buffer Characters
Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards are the classes that are especially good at buffing (and supporting in general).
Bards have Bardic Inspiration as means of buffing besides spells.
Sorcerers have Metamagic, and again, they can Twin.
Wizards can choose their spells from a vast repository, and apart from that, they can also use a lot of situational buffing rituals such as Water Breathing, making them good at buffing in their own special way.

If your party does not have enough characters that can buff (including, if you look at the spell lists of the aforementioned characters and realize they don’t have many buffing spells), you can become a great Buffer and save the day. The tanks and strikers in your party will all fall in love with you.
Debuffer
What is a Debuffer?
The answer is simple: It’s the opposite of a buffer. But at the same time, you can say they’re similar in nature - they share the same goal, but they use different methods to achieve it.

While a Buffer empowers his allies to gain tactical advantage, a Debuffer instead weakens his enemies to gain tactical advantage. Spells like Suggestion and Polymorph (used to turn someone into an octopus) can target only 1 enemy unless you use Twinned Spell, while others like Hold Person and Hold Monster can be upcast to designate more targets. Web, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Reverse Gravity and their lot can affect everyone in a large area - this including your friends.

Much like Buff spells, most Debuffs spell require concentration, and thus you cannot cast multiple of them at once.

Debuff spells can save the necks of you and your friends in countless dire situations. Be it to paralyze the enemy Caster, or be it to hypnotize the entire horde of orcs, debuff spells are always nice to have, and can turn the tide of an encounter on its own.

Now, the greatest way to debuff an enemy is to kill him. So on first glance, damaging enemies might seem better than debuffing them. And this is right if the enemies are all Goblins, Kobolds or other enemies that will die soon either way - but if the enemies are tanky or anything, debuffing them first is the right thing to do. It’s better to spend 4 or 5 turns killing an once powerful, now severely weakened monster than spend 3 turns killing a super-powerful monster on his murderous rampage.

How to be a Debuffer
After reading the Buff section, using Twinned spell together with Debuff spells might seem like a nice idea on first glance. However, I personally think that is not the case here. Let’s compare the characteristics of Buff and Debuff spells:

Saving Throws
Buff spells are generally not resisted - they automatically succeed. However, a majority of the Debuff spells require a saving throw for its effects to take place successfully. This means that there is the danger that if your enemy (or enemies) all succeed on the save, your spell slot and turn may be wasted for nothing. Thus, you’d want have some way or another to make sure the enemies fail the saves as much as possible. One method is to pump your CHA. The other is a Metamagic option which we will talk more about shortly.
Number of Targets
Most Buff spells can designate only 1 target, but have powerful effects - thus Twinned Spell has amazing synergy with them in general. However, many good Debuff spells can designate multiple targets, or alternatively, have an “area of effect” that allows it to affect multiple enemies at the same time, even without help from Twinned Spell.
Can (Due to bad positioning) Debuff Friends Too
While Buff spells don’t have the danger of buffing enemies on accident, the AoE debuff spells can, if misplaced, debuff your friends as well. Perhaps your friend Barbarian will get entangled in your Web, or your Fighter comrade might go into a coma with your Hypnotic Pattern. Of course you should generally refrain from this sort of play, but if you may occasionally find yourself in situations where this is required to win, or gain tactical advantage. And that’s not very surprising or rare either - your party’s tanks will always be in melee range of your enemies anyways! But there happens to be a wonderful Metamagic option for those sorts of needs.

The two Metamagic options that work together most wonderfully with Debuff spells are Heightened Spell and Careful Spell. The former bestows disadvantage on the saving throw of one target of your debuff spell (it seems they were smart enough to not say all the targets), while the latter allows you and your friends to automatically succeed on the saving throws of your debuff spells. What does this make possible?

Perhaps you can bestow disadvantage on the saving throw of an especially powerful enemy monster, causing him to get Banished into another plane of existence until you’ve cleaned up all his minions. Or, perhaps he might never come back in the first place, if he’s a native of another plane... (and natives of other planes tend to be formidable enemies, don’t they?)

Perhaps you can, as already mentioned in the “Tank” section, use Careful Spell + Web on an area where you and your friends are fighting a bunch of enemies. Restraining all your enemies while you and your friend freely move around is sure fun.

Heightened Spell requires 3 Sorcery Points to use and is rather pricey, but in contrast, Careful Spell is very economical - requiring only 1 Sorcery Point to use. Both are powerful choices, but I’d generally advice you first get Careful and then get Heightened later. If you get Heightened at Sorcerer level 3, you’ll realize that using it will be a bit too costly at the level (once you hit level 10 for your third Metamagic, feel free to take it - it’s good for you, now that you’ve got a lot more Sorcery Points, as well as Spell Slots you can convert with Font of Magic). Careful makes you more tactically flexible, even from low levels.

Other Debuffer Characters
Again, Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards. Warlocks also have a certain number of debuff spells for when they need it.

Field Controller
What is a Field Controller?
A Field Controller is someone who manipulates the battlefield to ensure the party always has tactical advantage over your enemies. This is especially important if your DM uses Flanking rules, but even without them, this is an important job.

How to be a Field Controller
Field Control may be done through creating walls of stone or fire, or it may be done through making a particular area covered with thick mist or sticky spiderwebs, or it may be done through summoning a bunch of forks and knives and having them create the frontlines (respectively Wall of Stone, Wall of Fire, Web, Fog Cloud, Animate Objects).

Other spells, like Fear, force movement.

However, what makes you different from the other classes that are good at this job as well is that, being a formidable frontline warrior as well as a Caster, you also have the option to act as Field Control yourself. Your mere presence can become Field Control, by utilizing opportunity attacks (especially BB + War Caster) and such, and there’s also the Paladin abilities like Champion Challenge or Dreadful Aspect.

As with Debuff spells, many Field Control spells require saving throws and require concentration.

Other Field Controller Characters
This is getting repetitive, but Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards.
But apart from that, Druids are also amazing at minionmancy and field control in general.

Some Field Control spells can synergize. For instance, if there’s a necromancer in the party, you can cast Stinking Cloud on the area where the zombies are walking around, because Stinking Cloud does not affect monsters that are immune to poison.

Party Face
What is a Party Face?
A Party Face is someone who is good at getting through role-play situations. Of course, a lot of this will depend on the creativity and IRL wits of the player (that’s more important than the actual abilities of the character), but apart from that it should still be noted that there are many ways to make your Sorcadin better at being a party face.

How to be a Party Face
Party Faces should have high CHA, and proficiency with skills such as Persuasion, Deception, and Intimidation. Having access to Illusion and Enchantment spells also helps.

Now, you happen to already have high CHA, and you can also get easy access to illusion and enchantment spells. Apart from Minor Illusion (aka the strongest cantrip ever), Phantasmal Force and Suggestion are examples of good spells that are useful both in-combat and out-of-combat.

Being a Half-Elf or a Variant Human can help with getting proficiency in more skills (two with Half-Elf, one with Variant Human). You can customize your background to meet your party needs, and since your INT and WIS will be very low, chances are you will be focusing on:

STR Build: Atheletics and CHA skills
DEX Build: Acrobatics, Stealth (possibly Sleight of Hand) and CHA skills

So, it’s more like, you are going to be a party face by default.

Other Party Face Characters
Almost all of the Casters that use CHA (Bards, Sorcerers and Warlocks) will be good at being a party face - especially Bards. A good number of Rogues - especially Swashbucklers - also have high CHA, and bolster their abilities as a Party Face with Expertise.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 09:50 AM

Unaware of loss, nor aware of gain
Ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer Levels

http://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2015/4C2Axm.gif
Some builds are better at melee than others.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

There are many possible Sorcadin builds, each with a particular focus, and depending on what exactly you want to focus upon, your ideal choice of Paladin and Sorcerer level ratios will change.

For instance, if you want to be a good tank, going Paladin 6 is mandatory, while other builds which want to focus more on buffing yourself and friends will probably want to go Paladin 2 or 3 and take more Sorcerer levels, for more Sorcery Points and high-level Spell Slots.

Here we will look at the various possible ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer, and evaluate the pros, cons and aptitudes of each ratio.

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 18
Pros
Gets Sorcerer spells fastest of all Sorcadin builds (4 levels earlier than 6/14)
Most Spell Slots of all Sorcadin builds
Most Sorcery Points of all Sorcadin builds
Gets four Metamagic Options at level 19 (Sorcerer level 17)
Only Sorcadin build to gain access to Level 18 Sorcerous Origin abilities at level 20
Gains access to Level 9 spells at high levels (the main thing being Wish)
Cons
Does not get Aura of Protection. Worse Saving Throws
Does not get Extra Attack, unless you go Favored Soul. Without Extra Attack, your DPR will be low in situations where GFB does not work right
Just a bit lower HP due to less Paladin Levels
Does not get the Oath abilities such as Channel Divinity

Aptitudes
While the lack of Aura of Protection and having less HP (as well as less healing via Lay on Hands) makes you mediocre as a tank, you are the most capable God Caster of all the Sorcadin builds.

For those who wish to utilize Buffing spells with Twinned Spell, this will be a solid choice, with lots of sorcery points and earlier access to the spells such as Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph.

Paladin 3/ Sorcerer 17
Pros
Gets good Sorcerer spells at pretty early levels
More Spell Slots than other Sorcadin builds
More Sorcery Points than other Sorcadin builds
Gets four Metamagic Options at level 20 (Sorcerer level 17)
Gains access to Level 9 spells at high levels (the main thing being Wish)

Cons
Does not get Aura of Protection. Worse Saving Throws
Does not get Extra Attack, unless you go Favored Soul. Without Extra Attack, your DPR will be low in situations where GFB does not work right
Just a bit lower HP due to less Paladin Levels
Aptitudes
This build is similar to the 2/18 build, the differences being that:
This build gets Channel Divinity
This build gets Sorcerer spells 1 level late
This build does not get the Level 18 Sorcerous Origin ability at Level 20

So, the only reason to take this over 2/18 is to get Channel Divinity.

If you are going with this build, the main candidate for your Oath will be Oathbreaker (yes, I know - an Oathbreaker is someone who broke his Oath, not an Oath in itself - but just friggin ignore that for now!!!).
Oathbreaker’s Dreadful Aspect is a powerful control ability that will remain useful for your entire career. Control Undead is situational, but when it comes up, it’s truly amazing, if not broken. It’s like Dominate Monster, except it doesn’t require concentration and requires only one save per day.

The Crown Oath also has good Channel Divinity options if you look at just their effects, but Champion Challenge is an ability designed for tanks, meaning it’s not your main thing. Devotion and Ancients are mediocre choices, and Vengeance is not that good either, since their Channel Divinities are either not that synergetic with Caster-focused builds (Devotion and Vengeance are better with melee-focused builds), or simply really meh (Ancients). Unless you’re going Oathbreaker 3, it’s probably better to go 2/18 and advance in Sorcerer 1 level earlier.
Paladin 6/ Sorcerer 14
Pros
Gets Aura of Protection. Amazing at saving throws
Gets Level 2 Paladin spells such as Aid and Find Steed
Gets to heal more from Lay on Hands, and also gets a bit more HP than Caster-focused builds
Gets Extra Attack, meaning more reliable DPR even when GFB doesn’t work

Cons
Gets Sorcerer spells pretty late. Four levels late than a 2/18 build, for instance - not something to be ignored
Does not get your fourth Metamagic option
Cannot get level 8 or 9 spells (aka Wish)

Aptitudes
The builds from this one and below can benefit from the amazing Aura of Protection ability (Paladin 6), making them wonderful tanks - one of the most “constantly reliable” builds in 5e.

The fact you don’t get level 8 and 9 spells is IMO not as devastating as one may assume - it’s not like you can use them all day long anyways. What’s definitely more detrimental is how this build suffers from delayed Caster Level progression.

It will take a lot of levels before you can become a good Caster. If your campaign starts at a low level, for instance, you might feel always frustrated until you get to the higher levels, because until then, you’re not that different from a normal Paladin.

This build is focused on being a tank. Once he gets over level 12, he can also be a pretty versatile caster. But he will come online rather slow.

For campaigns which will spend more time at higher levels, this build is really solid and nice.

I personally believe that for 6/14 builds, gimmicks such as Careful Web really come to life. You can jump into the enemy frontlines without fear of getting knocked out early, and to make you even better at your job, you’d want to debuff your enemies and control the battlefield.
Paladin 7/ Sorcerer 13
Pros
Gains the level 7 ability of your Paladin Oath

Cons
Does not gain the level 14 ability of your Sorcerous Origin
Gets delayed 1 level in Sorcerer Level Progression compared to 6/14 builds

Aptitudes
The only reason to go 7/13 over 6/14 is to take the level 7 Paladin Oath ability. However, the abilities for Devotion, Vengeance and Crown are not that powerful (at least not powerful enough to justify going 7/13), leaving only Ancients and Oathbreakers. (However, Oathbreakers are only for when you’re going to focus a lot on Extra Attack, and if you’re going mainly GFB/BB, it’s not that good an ability.)

For those going Ancients, there is no reason to go 6/14.

However, if you’re going 7/13, do keep in mind that 9/11 is another pretty solid choice.

Paladin 9/ Sorcerer 11
Pros
Gets access to level 3 Paladin spells
Cons
Gets spells of only up to level 6
Even more of a delay in Caster level progression
Aptitudes
The big thing about level 3 Paladin spells is Aura of Vitality (heal 70 HP), but in addition to that, Oathbreakers also get Animate Dead.

Oathbreakers can benefit from 9/11, since Animate Dead can be upcast to summon forth a powerful undead army that gets bolstered with Aura of Hate.

9/11 is also strong for other builds, but IMO it works best with Oathbreakers.
Paladin 11/ Sorcerer 9
Pros
Gets Improved Divine Smite (and Aura of Courage)
Best tank of all Sorcadins (at least, among the ones listed in here)

Cons

You don’t get your third Metamagic option
Gets spells of only up to level 5
Lot of a delay in Caster level progression

Aptitudes
This build is for when you really want to be good at melee combat. Or, rather... At this point, you’re more of a “Paladin who happened to realize that you’ve already taken most of your goodies in Paladin levels, and decided to get into Sorcerer later”.

But IMO, the Paladin abilities generally tend to start out strong and slowly get weaker in comparison (not that they’re really weak - just situational, or at least not as strong as Aura of Protection etc.). With the exception of the Oathbreaker, who keeps on getting super-powerful abilities till his highest level, IMO almost all Paladins with optimization in their minds should think about going Sorcerer later.

This build is similar to 9/11, but gets better damage via Improved Divine Smite. Due to the nature of IDS, it’s best to take Polearm Master and gain extra 3d8 damage per round (otherwise going 9/11 is infinitely better, due to faster Caster level progression, and eventually getting your third Metamagic option).

This build will be not very different from a “Half-Caster” type class, in terms of what it can do - it gets only up to level 5 spells. However, it’s still very powerful, as well as versatile, because Metamagic. And because you have the spell lists of two classes, Paladins and Sorcerers.

Your best candidates for 11/9 Oaths are Ancients and Oathbreakers, having good level 7 abilities (Oathbreakers might as well go straight Oathbreaker though).

Since you get the good Buff spells very, very late, and you don’t have many Sorcery Points, you should focus more on Debuffing over Buffing, choosing Twinned and Careful Spell as your Metamagic options.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 09:56 AM

Withstood pain to create weapons
What’s Your Weapon of Choice?
Part 1: Longsword

http://66.media.tumblr.com/bbeebefa6f00fc80a3807703f23d0327/tumblr_nwrae13a5H1smzgcuo1_500.gif
Your weapon defines your combat style. (Image by Ufotable)

As already mentioned in “Races and Stats”, the build of a Sorcadin is defined by his weapon. You could call these the three “Sub-Classes” of Sorcadins: Longsword, Greatsword, and Rapier. Depending on your weapon, the ratings of certain Oaths and Origins will start to change. I intend to make those points clear by sorting the guide in this way.

Each explanation of a “Sub-Class” will be divided into the following parts:

Core Concept
Core Abilities
Paladin Oath Evaluation
Sorcerer Origin Evaluation
Level Progression

Due to the limitation on the number of words per post, I will divide this section into three posts, and talk only about the Longsword in this post.

NOTE - Technically, damage-wise, you can replace a Longsword with a Battleaxe, Flail, Morningstar, War Pick, Warhammer, or hell, even a Rapier, and likewise, you can replace a Greatsword with a Maul - and you should have multiple weapons in case you fight enemies which are resistant to a certain type of damage - but I anyways named these weapons after the options I considered to be “default”.
Also, the UA Feat “Blade Mastery” makes using swords generally the better option.

Longsword Sorcadin
IMO this is the default option for Sorcadins. Not that it’s absolutely superior to the other Sub-Classes, just that it’s all-around really, really balanced. You have both great defenses and great offense, not to mention all the versatility via spells and the healing from being a Paladin, and you’ll be greatly welcome in virtually any adventuring team.

Core Concept
Let’s first look at the two main strengths of the Longsword Sorcadin, which are “Superb Defenses” and having “Less Feat Dependency (Higher CHA)”. After that, we’ll talk a bit about the “attack method” of choice, which is either “Extra Attack” or “Green-Flame/Booming Blade”.

Superb Defenses
The main thing about Longsword Sorcadins is their high defense. Your offense capabilities may not match that of a Greatsword build, but you’re more tanky than any other Sorcadin sub-class in terms of both AC and Saving Throws, making you the ultimate All-Rounder.

First, about AC: As with all Sword and Board builds, having a shield equipped to you for +2 AC is amazing for any melee character. Being tanky is one of the core responsibilities of a frontline warrior, and with your HP being considerably lower than the average Fighter, Sorcadins need an option to reinforce their defenses. The easiest way to get tankier is to hold a shield - and thus, it can be said that S&B and Sorcadins are indeed synergetic from the start.

With Plate Armor, the Defense Fighting Style, and a Shield, your AC becomes 18+2+1=21. With the Shield spell (+5 AC) that becomes 26, even better than the Tarrasque. At higher levels, with spells like Greater Invisibility, disadvantage on all attacks meant for you makes you a truly terrifying opponent to face (Shadow Sorcs also get the same benefit from Darkness, at the price of possibly hindering your friends’ actions, and Blur also allows this with a level 2 spell). Let’s see how effective this is by actually crunching numbers.

With 21 AC:
Goblins (CR 1/4) can hit you only 20% of the time.
A Red Dragon Wyrmling (CR 4) can hit you only 30% of the time.
A Young Red Dragon (CR 10) can hit you only 50% of the time.
An Adult Red Dragon (CR 17) can hit you 70% of the time.

With 21 AC and disadvantage:
Goblins (CR 1/4) can hit you only 4% of the time.
A Red Dragon Wyrmling (CR 4) can hit you only 9% of the time.
A Young Red Dragon (CR 10) can hit you only 25% of the time.
An Adult Red Dragon (CR 17) can hit you only 49% of the time.

With 26 AC:
Goblins (CR 1/4) can hit you only 5% of the time (Critical only).
A Red Dragon Wyrmling (CR 4) can hit you only 5% of the time (Critical only).
A Young Red Dragon (CR 10) can hit you only 25% of the time.
An Adult Red Dragon (CR 17) can hit you only 45% of the time.

With 26 AC and disadvantage:
Goblins (CR 1/4) can hit you only 0.25% of the time (Two Criticals in a row only).
A Red Dragon Wyrmling (CR 4) can hit you only 0.25% of the time (Two Criticals in a row only).
A Young Red Dragon (CR 10) can hit you only 6.25% of the time.
An Adult Red Dragon (CR 17) can hit you only 20.25% of the time.
...That’s how difficult it is to hit you.

(The Blade Mastery feat also increases your AC by 1. It does, however, use up your reaction - which means it cannot be used together with Booming Blade + War Caster, or Shield. These may make it anti-synergetic with builds which focus on locking down enemies.)

Second, since you don’t depend on STR as much as Greatsword builds, the chances open up for you to invest more in CHA (more mentioning of this in the next section, “Less Feat Dependency”). This also reads “Better Saving Throws”, with your ever-so-awesome Aura of Protection (if you go Paladin 6).

D&D 5e is designed so that the saving throw DCs of the monsters’ abilities rise and rise with higher CR, but the saving throw bonuses of the PCs generally don’t get upgraded (only the bonuses for the stats you’re investing in and/or have saving throw proficiencies with can grow). While a level 1 Sorcerer and a level 20 Sorcerer will most likely both equally suck at WIS saves, the WIS save DCs of the monsters will rise and rise, from the DC 10 of the CR 2 Gibbering Mouther to the DC 21 of the CR 24 Ancient Red Dragon.

Most characters are good at only one or two types of saves. You’re good at them all, and boosting your CHA improves ALL your Saving Throws. Both in terms of AC and saves, your defenses are hell amazing. The only class that has better saving throws than you is the Monk with Diamond Soul, but unlike him, you can bestow your ability to your friends around you as well.

In addition to aforementioned benefits, Oath of the Ancients level 7 gives you resistance to spell damage, improving your tankiness even further. Oath of the Crown and Oathbreaker give you good battlefield control options as well, with their excellent Channel Divinity powers.

Less Feat Dependency (Higher CHA)
For Greatsword builds, GWM is a Feat tax (well, to be fair, it’s also one that’s worth taking), and they also need to take Resilient (CON). DEX builds need to not only take War Caster, but also pump up their DEX.

Compared to these, the only Feat S&Bs have to take is War Caster. Thus you get one more free ASI compared to the other builds. Overall, Longsword Sorcadins have the most options possible, both during character creation and during combat.

BTW, another thing worth mentioning is that you don’t need to necessarily have high STR to make a Longsword build work, unlike how GWMs will invest heavily in there. Longsword Sorcadins should generally value CHA more than STR. It improves not only your spellcasting and Channel Divinity, but also your saves via Aura of Protection (if you’re Draconic Sorcerer, Elemental Affinity] also works better with high CHA). If you went with a Race that gives you +2 STR, you should first pump that 17 STR to 18, but otherwise, it will generally be actually better to first pump your CHA, possibly even to 20, before going on to STR.

Extra Attack V.S. SCAG Sword Cantrips
Now, from here, let’t move on to the offense issue. Longsword’s damage die of 1d8 is okay. It’s not particularly interesting, but not bad either.

From here is where stuff get interesting, and builds start to differentiate themselves. If you’re interesting in dealing more damage, taking Dueling instead of Defense is a not-bad option, but do keep in mind that at high levels (level 11 and higher), Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade can be a possibly more damaging option than Extra Attack. This is especially evident with Draconic Bloodline Origin + Green-Flame Blade. On the other hand, if you are an Oathbreaker with Aura of Hate, Extra Attack can be more beneficial for you, and thus Dueling will become a more yummy, synergetic option. At the same time you can also say that Draconic Bloodline and Oathbreaker are sorta anti-synergetic at what they do (only “sorta”, but still).

...Stuff like that. Depending on your Oath and Origin, certain options may become stronger or weaker.

So, it can be said that, one thing to keep in mind when going S&B is - “What is your main attack option? Extra Attack or the SCAG Blade Cantrips?”

Extra Attack has a higher chance of hitting at least once per turn, and rarely ends his turn without doing anything. The SCAG Blade Cantrips are only once per turn with their attacks, so if you miss you might end your turn doing nothing, but depending on the level it has better damage than Extra Attack, and Booming Blade can also be Twinned for a semi-Extra Attack (it does cost a Sorcery Point, and you can’t choose the same target for both attacks, though).

There’s no “right” or “wrong” option here. Choose whichever attack option you think is more cool. Your choice of Oath and Origin should be, at least to some extent, based on that decision.
Core Abilities
Here I will talk about abilities that are especially useful for the Longsword Sorcadin. However, it should be noted that due to how “orthodox” and “simple” the Longsword build is, there are not many abilities that are especially or uniquely strong for Longsword builds.

Thus, there is honestly not that much to talk in here. If anything, we will talk about what options are especially strong with S&B - especially the CHA based options.

Paladin
Fighting Style: Take either Dueling (Extra Attack builds) or Defense (SCAG Blade builds). Protection does help your job as a tank, but is mediocre in how it uses up your Reaction. Your Reaction should be used for Booming Blade+War Caster (massive damage), or for the Shield spell.
Aura of Protection: Taking this requires 6-level progression in Paladin, delaying your Caster progression by a lot. However, this investment in Paladin is most definitely worth it.
The label does not lie, because Aura of Protection really protects you and your friends. This ability is insanely powerful for anyone, but it works better for STR S&B than it does for GWM or DEX S&B, because with STR S&B you can invest more heavily in CHA.
For those who wish to become better Buffers, this can be either delayed or ignored, but I personally think you should get it sooner or later, especially if you’re going to have 20 CHA.

Sorcerer
Metamagic: Do keep in mind that you get only two options, and the options don’t increase till Sorcerer level 10. Thus you should choose these wisely. First, Quickened Spell is mandatory, so that’s that. The other main options are Heightened Spell (when you really want to kill someone), Careful Spell (combine with Web or Hypnotic Pattern for amazing effect), and Twinned Spell (While your Sorcerer level is low, use on Booming Blade, Suggestion, and Phantasmal Force. Once it’s high, use together with Haste, Greater Invisibility, and Polymorph for maximum lolz. Does require quite a lot of sorcery points when combined with high-level spells though). If you’re going level 9 Paladin, Extended Spell is another good option for the Aura of Vitality combo.
Careful Spell is
Shield: I’m talking about the Level 1 spell.. It’s actually more of a class ability than a spell.
*NOTE-Some rulings by the creators say Green-Flame Blade cannot be twinned since it must choose two targets. However, as with all rulings, this depends on the DM, so ask beforehand.
Paladin Oath Evaluation

Oath of Devotion
This option is not bad, but not especially good either. Taking a look at what it has:
Oath Spells: A mixed bag of situational abilities that’s anyways extremely useful in how they’re free to take. All the Oath Spells options are good for you, considering how Sorcerers get so little spell selection, and you desperately need versatility .
Channel Divinity: Sacred Weapon: It increases your hit bonus and looks at your high CHA! Sadly it also uses an action. If you can activate it before combat it’s good, but even in that case this is more of a GWM ability than a S&B one.
Channel Divinity: Turn the Unholy: Too situational to be given an actual rating. It is certainly not bad when it can be used, though.
Aura of Devotion: Can’t be Charmed. Not “advantage”, you can’t be charmed. And sure it’s a nice ability, but it also sorta overlaps with racial abilities of an Elf or Half-Elf, and it’s also situational. A majority of Charming effects look at WIS, and with proficiency in WIS saves and Aura of Protection, chances are you’re gonna succeed on the save either way. If you’re going Devotion, level 6 is probably enough (unless you’re going level 9 for level 3 spells).
Also, if you’re using Hypnotic Pattern on your area, you can simply use Careful Spell.

Oath of the Ancients
WARNING: This rating specifically refers to when you go 7 levels in Paladin instead of 6. If you plan on going only Paladin 6, DO NOT CHOOSE THIS OATH.
Oath Spells: Constantly having Misty Step prepared is good. Speak With Animals is also useful for when you need it in RP situations. Ensnaring Strike is not something you will be constantly using, but it’s a very good control spell that doesn’t use up your action and is great when you need it. “Restrained” is quite a menacing condition.
Channel Divinity: Nature’s Wrath: It’s not that it’s necessarily bad, it’s that Ensnaring Strike is generally the better option. At least this one doesn’t require concentration. It’s not bad when it can be pulled off, so better than nothing.
Channel Divinity: Turn the Faithless: Same as Turn the Unholy - too situational to be given an actual rating, but certainly not bad when it can be used.
Aura of Warding: The selling point of this Oath. Now, sadly, not a good number of the monsters in the MM have spellcasting, and even if they have magical powers, this ability doesn’t work on magical damage that doesn’t come from spells (like a dragon’s breath weapon or a Mind Flayer’s Mind Blast). It’s heavily campaign/DM dependent, and not as amazing as it seems in paper.
However, even with that said, it’s still good. Very good, and can save your neck (and the necks of your friends) when needed, especially given how enemy spells tend to deal extremely high damage. Besides, anything that improves your capacities as a tank is a good ability to have.

Oath of Vengeance
Clearly this oath is designed to be an offense build, and a good one at that too. It’s a very strong Oath, but not one that synergizes well with S&B Sorcadins, since you want more versatility than extra offense.
Oath Spells: This doesn’t give you much extra spell options when you compare it to the Sorcerer spell list. What it does is freeing up Sorcerer spell options and allowing you to choose more Sorcerer spells. That’s a pretty good thing.
Channel Divinity: Abjure Enemy: Not bad as means to keep someone from escaping or running towards the backrow casters. It’s easy to forget, but unlike you, most casters are fragile.
Channel Divinity: Vow of Enmity: Gets advantage on all attacks against somebody you want to kill first. It’s a Bonus Action, doesn’t require concentration, and doesn’t allow a save either. Pretty darn nice, especially since spells like Green-Flame Blade will deal 0 damage for the turn if you miss once. Also, getting twice the crits is very fun when combined with Divine Smite.
Relentless Avenger: Not bad. Not something worth the extra Paladin level either.

Oath of the Crown (SCAG)
This oath is often overlooked, but IMO it’s actually one of the, if not the best Oath(s) for a S&B Sorcadin with more than 6 Paladin levels in how it’s the best Oath for a tank build.
However, for builds that don’t focus much on tanking, it’s a really meh choice. However, considering that most of those who don’t focus on tanking will go 2/18 and never take an Oath in the first place, if you’re going to actually choose an Oath, you should consider this to be a powerful option. (3/17 builds are an exception - they should become Oathbreakers - though.)
Oath Spells: Blue for builds that go Paladin more than 9 levels due to Spirit Guardians, Black for builds that go only 6 or 7. Not a bad list, but not as good as the other ones.
Channel Divinity: Champion Challenge: Is it just me, or does this not use up an Action, or even a Bonus Action? I mean, all the other Channel Divinity abilities state “As an action...” or “As a bonus action...” but this one doesn’t. In which case this is Sky Blue as an ability that protects all your backrow friends. And remember how you have amazing AC? Feel free to take on the entire frontline by yourself.
Gets really meh if you’re not a Tank, but since you’ve chosen this Oath, I suppose you’re gonna be one.
Careful Spell is very synergetic with this ability - get all the enemies around you, and proceed to drop an AoE on the entire area around you. Drop a Web (normally Blue, but Sky Blue for you) or Hypnotic Pattern on the entire area (including yourself) without fear of failing the save.
Channel Divinity: Turn the Tide: A situational version of Mass Healing Word is better than it seems on first glance. The way it’s written is the same as many healing spells, so pretty sure you can include yourself in the targets you heal as well (you should ask your DM beforehand about those rulings at your table though).
However, having the targets need to hear your voice is a really painful restriction in how it can’t restore the consciousness of friends with 0 HP. The fact Champion Challenge is so good also makes using this something of a last resort, but it’s not a bad last resort when you need it.
Divine Allegiance: Using up your reaction is generally something you want to keep away from, and the 5 feet radius makes it even worse. Could be worth using if the friend next to you is going to faint, in which case this is a good use of your reaction, but generally, I would stop at Paladin 6.

Oathbreaker (DMG)
This Oath (or rather, the state of “Breaking an Oath”) specifically requires DM permission in how many associated characters will be evil. Some DMs may also allow this to be re-fluffed to be some sort of a really Dark Hero-ish or Fanatic Cultist-ish “Oath”, depending on the setting (in a particular game I’m joining, my character - who derives her Paladin powers from the Goddess of Death - is scheduled to become an “Oathbreaker” when she hits Paladin level 3). Whatever the case, it’s part of player manners to be cooperative to the team, so do keep that in mind, even when playing an Evil character.
Anyhow, the reason this Oath is Blue is because a lot of its abilities (all of them very strong!) rely on CHA. S&B Builds can get higher CHA than GWM builds, so it’s obvious that this Oath is a really good option for S&B Sorcadins in general.
Whether to go Oathbreaker 7 or not is up to you. It does increase your damage by 3 or 4 per turn (double that with Extra Attack), but you’ll lag behind another level in spellcasting, and it also robs you of the level 14 Sorcerer ability (if you’ll actually ever get there, that is). If you want your build to go Extra Attack - like for instance, if you picked up a Flame Tongue or something during Paladin progression - you should probably go to Oathbreaker 7 since you want to be good at Extra Attacks, but otherwise, it’s not a requirement at all. Both the stuff you gain and the stuff you lose are quite heavy.
Oathbreaker Spells: Every class needs something to balance itself out, and in the Oathbreaker’s case that appeared in its Spell List. The spells in here are not necessarily bad, but not the sort of stuff you will be using frequently either. Very situational and overall meh.
Channel Divinity: Control Undead: It’s situational, but also as broken as hell when it goes off. Sky Blue in the right campaign.
Channel Divinity: Dreadful Aspect: The selling point of Oathbreakers in Sorcadin builds. The super-superb part of this ability is that the targets can’t re-attempt saves unless they get over 30 feet away from the Oathbreaker - there is no other way to escape the Frightened condition bestowed by this ability. But if you’ve already locked the targets into melee range, the targets must risk being hit by opportunity attacks to get over 30 feet away from you. And when that’s triggered, you use War Caster+Booming Blade to zap them to a crisp. Combine with Tunnel Fighter to do this to everybody. This combination is absolutely devastating.
If you want to troll the hell out of your enemies, combine with Wall of Fire - encircle your enemies with the wall, and they are forced to fight you while they’re constantly afraid of you. Either that, or they nee to jump through a burning wall. Sounds fun? It’s fun. I’ve done it before.
Aura of Hate: Your good CHA score now boosts not only your spellcasting and saves, but also your weapon damage. Way to go, I mean, like, there’s now nothing you can’t do with your dazzling sexiness. For readsons mentioned, it isn’t for everybody, especially since it doesn’t synergize well with GFB and BB, but if you need it it’ll be good. If your party includes a Necromancer, this ability becomes awesome beyond belief.
This ability can become detrimental for you if you face Fiends or Undead, but by RAW Divine Smite somehow still works with Oathbreakers (I really think they should change the damage type to Necrotic and change the preferred targets to other monster-types for Oathbreakers, but anyways), so you can Smite them harder to kill them first before they kill you (and don’t forget that powerful undead can become best friends with Control Undead). That, or you can utilize your high CHA and spellcasting capabilities to simply slink back into the backrow and fling Fireballs until your evil friends have all been extinguished from the battlefield.
Sorcerer Origin Evaluation

Draconic Bloodline
Gives you extra tanking and improves your damage. It’s a really solid choice.
Draconic Ancestor: Extremely campaign-dependent but can be useful in certain situations.
Draconic Resilience: Your job is to be a tank. This ability makes you a better tank. The part about not needing Mage Armor, you can really just skip over, because your DEX is going to be either 8 or 10.
Elemental Affinity: And now here’s what’s really amazing. The obvious choice is Fire, improving the damage of Green-Flame Blade as well as amazing AoE spells such as Fireball.
There has been some rulings that this ability can work only once per spell, so like for instance, it improves the damage of only one of the rays created by Scorching Ray, and so on. By the same logic, if you’re to abide by these rulings, you need to choose which to buff, Green-Flame Blade’s “main slash” or the “leaping fire”. However, there is a lot of fan debate over whether this ruling is to be followed or not. When it comes to ruling interpretation, the power level goes like Sage Advice/Twitter Rulings < Official Printed Material <<<<< DM judgment, so ask your DM beforehand about how he will rule this.
Dragon Wings: So like, you can fly. Isn’t that fascinating? Do keep in mind that you can never gain this benefit if you go Paladin 7 or higher, though.
Draconic Presence: So, it costs as much Sorcery Points as creating a level 3 spell slot, requires concentration, and unlike Web etc., enemies that fail it once never have to repeat it. It looks bad. And you wouldn’t always want to use it either - most of the time, if you have that many Sorcery Points you’ll probably rather do something else with them, and you will almost always be concentrating on something that’s much better.
However, the area is massive (60 feet radius), making it an amazing field control option. Used right and with the right DM, it can also possibly end an encounter on its own (instead of attacking, you can simply make an Intimidation check - perhaps with advantage - to make all the enemies cower before you and deprave them of fighting will).
In exchange for not working together with Heightened Spell, enemy Casters cannot use Counterspell on it, since it’s a class ability and not a Spell. And the whole point of this ability is not whether you will always want to use it - what’s important is that this ability gives you an extra option. That’s what’s important here.

Wild Magic
In terms of how entertaining it is as a class, Wild Magic Sorcerer is Sky Blue. Sadly, that isn’t really the main purpose of this guide.
The powers of this class largely depend on how often your DM is willing to activate Tides of Chaos. Depending on the DM, this can become possibly upgraded to Blue, but in general it has little to synergize with S&B and is overall a mediocre option in terms of optimization. However, it is better than most people assume on first glance.
This option and Oath of the Ancients mesh together rather uniquely and humorously. Even if you Fireball yourself, you will be able to mitigate the damage. That said, this sort of thing rarely happens, so it’s not like it’s a really big deal. It will be fun when it goes off though.
Wild Magic Surge: Entertainment, which at times come with a price. It’s really fun and a good class, but not exactly the sort you look for in optimization.
Tides of Chaos: Advantage on anything, once per short rest! Which is good for both offense and defense, and also recharges whenever the DM “feels like it”. This is largely dependent on the DM, but with the right DM, can be abused to hell.
Bend Luck: It’s like Bardic Inspiration, except you don’t need to give it beforehand. 1d4 might not seem like a large amount, but it’s very versatile in both boosting your friends and weakening your enemies. Works especially well with save-or-suck spells. Be careful how it expends 2 Sorcery Points and uses up your reaction - only save it for when you really need it.
Controlled Chaos: Avoid turning into a potted plant by accident. That’s pretty nice.
Spell Bombardment: And this is a level 18 ability because...? No, really, this is a level 3 ability or something. At least it works with GFB and BB.

Storm Sorcery (SCAG)
This is a wonderful Sorcerous Origin option that is both thematic and powerful. Sadly, it doesn’t synergize well with Sorcadins, at least unless you’re going 2/18 and your campaign starts at level 20 or something, in which case this might become pretty good. Wind Soul is an amazing ability, but it’s for level 18, and until you get that, this option is overall lackluster for Sorcadins..
Wind Speaker: Great, so now you can speak with that raging Elemental that’s coming after the party to kill you! Better than nothing, but this ability will be important once in every, like, several hundred sessions (unless your DM is a good, creative DM who knows his job well, and specifically creates moments where this ability can be useful).
Tempestuous Magic: Your spells are generally going to be cast using Bonus Actions, and even if it’s cast with an Action, you don’t need to run away from your opponents.
Heart of the Storm: This ability is more important for Sorcadins than it is for pure Sorcerers in how you’re on the frontlines, and having a lot of enemies within 10 feet of you is a good thing, not a bad thing. Sadly, there are not many spells that deal Thunder or Lightning damage, and even when there are, dealing damage using spells is the least of your priorities.
Storm Guide: This is one of those abilities that can become Sky Blue with the right situations but is otherwise too, and I mean too situational to be considered an actual class ability. If your campaign is going to be about a bunch of adventuring pirates, your party needs a guy with this ability, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be you, given how almost nothing this Origin offers is beneficial for a Sorcadin.
Storm’s Fury: It’s like you have an unlimited supply of Hellish Rebuke, except with a less resisted damage type. Which is good. It also uses up your reaction, and thus robs you of opportunity-Booming-Blading and Shielding. Which is meh. Overall not bad, I mean, it’s still useful, but not something to get really excited over either.
Wind Soul: This is an amazing ability, and it’s an utter shame almost everything that came before it is not that good for Sorcadins. Immunity to a particular type of damage is something most characters never get in their entire adventuring careers, and you get two of them for starters. Then you can also fly around at a whooping speed of 60ft per turn, or alternatively, allow your entire party to fly around freely. Neither flying option requires concentration. A truly hilarious ability that benefits your entire party and will make everyone love you.
Again, too bad that everything that came before it is not that synergetic with Sorcadins.

Favored Soul (UA), Paladin 6 or higher builds
It’s a running joke how WotC introduced a Sorcerer Origin with an expanded spell list in the exact same guide in which they specifically stated that the spell list of the Sorcerer is heavily restricted on purpose. However, despite how it’s a powerful Sorcerer Origin, it’s not that much of an option for tank-heavy Sorcadins.
This is, for one, because the level 1 and 6 abilities of the Favored Soul are complete wastes for Sorcadins.
And for another, a majority of the spells you can get from the Cleric Domains are already in the Paladin spell list.
If you’re going to go Favored Soul, the reason for that should be because you really want a particular spell on your list, or because you think having more selection of Sorcerer spells is more important than the level 1 and 6 abilities of the Sorcerer Origins. It’s difficult to justify, and probably not optimized, but who knows? Maybe you could find an insane combo or something.
Chosen of the Gods: Read this as “bit more spell versatility”. Not that it makes you as versatile as you hope. Let’s look at the Domain candidates.
Knowledge prominently gives us Command, Suggestion, Arcane Eye and Scrying. Not bad, but more of out-of-combat stuff than in-combat. Having Suggestion constantly ready gives us the freedom to take 1 extra Sorcerer spell. Not bad. Not the sort of stuff you expect from being a “Chosen of the Gods” either.
Life has honestly not much to give us, which is not a surprise, since all the important spells are already on the Paladin list, and we don’t need that many Paladin spells to make a strong Sorcadin.
Light is not bad, freeing up Sorcerer spell selection with Fireball and Wall of Fire. It also has Faerie Fire and Scrying, which are good spells.
Nature is a bag of situational spells that is not really that bad, but not the sort of stuff you would trade the level 1 and 6 abilities of the other Origins for.
Tempest has nothing special about it.
Trickery is an actually pretty good list, and is probably the best choice, since it has Mirror Image, Dispel Magic, Polymorph and Dominate Person, allowing you to choose a lot more Sorcerer spells.
War has spells like Spiritual Weapon, Magic Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Hold Monster, so it’s an okay choice.
Death (DMG) is honestly bad.
Arcana (SCAG) is likewise meh.
Bonus Proficiencies: It’s not really a “bonus” proficiency when you already have it.
Extra Attack: It’s not really an “extra” attack when you already have it.
Divine Wings: Same as the Draconic Bloodline ability.

Favored Soul (Trickery Domain) (UA), Paladin 2 or 3 builds
I divided the “Favored Soul” section into “if you went Paladin 6 or higher” or “if you did not”, because that difference immensely affects the rating of this Origin.
For 2/18 and 3/17 builds, Favored Soul is pretty darn good. Getting the Extra Attack option is nice, and the extra spells solves the major problem with Sorcerers of getting very little spells known.
This rating assumes you went with the Trickery Domain, which has, as already mentioned in the above rating of Paladin-heavy builds, many useful spells. Otherwise this becomes not so appealing,

Chosen of the Gods (Trickery): The Trickery Domain is amazing - as already mentioned, you get Mirror Image, Dispel Magic, Polymorph and Dominate Person for free. That’s quite a smexy bonus. I personally believe all Sorcerous Origins should have expanded spell lists, since it’s really that important for Sorcerers.
Bonus Proficiencies: It’s not really a “bonus” proficiency when you already have it.
Extra Attack: Improves your DPR. Even at higher levels, Green-Flame Blade does not always work at maximum effectiveness (having no two enemies near each other etc.), so you should get it.
Divine Wings: Same as the Draconic Bloodline ability.
Chosen of the Gods: Some healing that comes whenever you use Mirror Image or Polymorph (or any of the other Trickery spells). That’s cool. That’s pretty damn cool. The amount itself is not large, but it’s nonetheless a good bonus to have.

Shadow (UA)
Also known as the Emo Sorcerer. The “Quirks” list included in the UA article is really fascinating, and IMO a list that should be added to any new supplements WotC publishes, but that’s not really relevant to this guide. What is relevant to this guide is that Shadow Sorcerers are a pretty strong - if not overpowered - choice of Origin that can both tank and attack nicely.
Eyes of the Dark: At level 1 it’s a Darkvision ability. From level 2 it allows you to cast an uber-empowered version of an extremely versatile Level 2 spell at the cost of 1 Sorcery Point, which is honestly nuts. It’s a badly designed ability, so you might want to ask your DM beforehand if it’s really okay to use this. My suggestion is to make it cost 2 Sorcery Points, in my games. And even then, it’s still strong.
This ability works most with GWM, but advantage on all your attacks, disadvantage on all your enemies’ attacks, and not getting targeted by enemy spells is so yummy an ability that basically anyone can benefit from it.
Strength of the Grave: Emergency button for when you’re going to faint. Which is very useful for a tank like you.
Hound of Ill Omen: Spending 3 Sorcery Points as a Bonus Action to summon forth a CR 1 creature that also bestows an enemy disadvantage on the saving throws of your spells. While a bit costly, this is a strictly better version of Heightened Spell. And Heightened Spell was already good...
What makes this really special is that it pretty much gives you room for 1 more Metamagic option.
Shadow Walk: While a bit situational, bonus action teleport of 120 feet is an extremely juicy ability for a frontline martial character who constantly wants to be in melee range of someone in the enemy team. Use this to teleport next to the enemy caster while you’ve got Darkness on your weapon, and the enemy becomes blinded, becoming unable to cast Spells that target. Hell amazing, if not broken. IMO this should have a cost, like 1 or 2 Sorcery Points or something.
Shadow Form: Spend 3 Sorcery Points as a bonus action to double your HP and get the ability to move through walls. Are you kidding me, boy? This Origin has broken abilities, and broken abilities alone. This should cost 5 Sorcery Points, and as an action. And it’d still be good.
Level Progression

Since this is a mutliclass build, there are certain levels at which your build may not work as good as it is supposed to. To minimize that problem, I’ve created this section that will hopefully be helpful for those who wish to go Paladin/Sorcerer.

Those going 2/18 can simply go in that order. First 2 levels Paladin, then Sorcerer all the way. Paladin 3 builds can go that way too, throwing in the third level whenever they feel like it. But 6/14 and builds with more Paladin levels might require some thought. Which is better?

There are two ways for a 6/14 build to advance - the first to go Pal 2 > Pal 2 / Sorc 6 > Pal 6 / Sorc 6 > Pal 6 / Sorc 14, and the second to go Paladin 6 > Pal 6/ Sorc 14. Either works. 7/13 builds are similar, but go Pal 7 instead of 6.

If you’re going with the former, be aware that until you get War Caster at Sorcerer 4, unless your DM is willing with component issues (I honestly don’t care much as a DM, but some people do), you cannot cast a majority of your spells while holding both a Longsword and a Shield. It’s impossible to get War Caster with V-Human. I personally would wield either a Polearm or a Greatsword till you go level 5, and switch to S&B after getting War Caster, if going this path.

Simply going Paladin 6 or 7 first is a more straightforward option, and there’s really no way this is weak, because Paladins are known to be top-tier classes at low levels,. You’ll have absolutely no problem with this path, aside from the fact it’s mostly a normal Paladin till level 7 or 8 and higher.
Oathbreakers are especially suited for this progression path, being good Extra Attackers and having an awesome level 7 ability. But really, if in doubt, this might be actually the most safe choice. Especially given how your CHA bonus is going to be good.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 09:59 AM

What’s Your Weapon of Choice?
Part 2: Greatsword

http://i.imgur.com/vK98Mhs.gif
You can never have too much of badass action scenes. (Image by Ufotable)

Greatsword Sorcadin
This is the offense build of Sorcadins, with terrifying damage capabilities on top of your magical versatility. In exchange for being able to inflict loads and loads of damage, you will suffer from lower AC and saving throw bonuses compared to a S&B build, so this build requires more careful crafting (beginners should first go S&B - you can’t go wrong with them), but if built right, it’s hilarious to play.

I said the S&B build is the “ultimate All-Rounder”.
The Greatsword build here is the “master of damage”.

Though you don’t get as many attacks, you will have a lot more ways to make GWM hit accurately than the average GWM Fighter, using your spells and the abilities of the Paladin and Sorcerer to their maximum. A large portion of the build should be built to synergize with GWM by improving your attack rolls.

Core Concept
Great Weapon Master is a truly amazing Feat, and strong enough to build a whole character around. This is one such build.

+10 damage per hit is boss, but the -5 to attack rolls makes it difficult to use on its own. You need to combine it with something else to be truly effective. Thus we will use various spells and class abilities to improve your attack roll bonus, as well as gain advantage on the attacks, to make sure that you hit accurately as much as possible, and get to make the most out of the Great Weapon Master feat (advantage also increases your chances of landing a critical hit, allowing another attack as a bonus action!).

To be accurate with your attacks, you will want to prioritize STR more than S&B builds do. Taking the Blade Mastery (UA) Feat could be actually a better idea than an ASI, though, with a +1 attack roll bonus and two extra abilities (+1 AC with a reaction and advantage on opportunity attacks), both of them extremely helpful.

Now, one thing to note: due to the nature of character attack roll bonuses and monster ACs in D&D 5e, Great Weapon Master is generally stronger at higher levels than it is at lower levels. Your attack roll bonus will drastically improve with level progression, but the monster ACs don’t rise that much. Granted, this isn’t much of a problem, since Sorcadins themselves are better at higher levels. If you’re playing a Sorcadin, chances are you’re playing in a mid-to-high level anyway (READ: If your campaign is starting low-level, best to go S&B instead of GWM).

For instance, a level 1 Paladin with 16 STR has an attack bonus of +5, so even if he has GWM via Variant Human, he will find it difficult to use it all the time. Even at this level, your enemies have decent AC (for instance, Goblins have 15 AC, when they’re only CR 1/4), and the risk of -5 to hit is too much.

When this is a level 20 Paladin/Sorcerer with 20 STR and Blade Mastery, the attack bonus is +12 (in most actual games it gets even better with magical items). Then do your enemies all have 22 AC? Probably not, that sort of AC is reserved for special monsters like the Ancient Red Dragon.

Now, speaking of the Ancient Red Dragon...

GWM is designed to be better against hordes. It relies on the enemies having low AC (for the -5/+10) and dying frequently (for the bonus action attack).

Then does the Paladin/Sorcerer suck against powerful solos/duos?

NO!!!! Hell no, you’re awesome against solos and duos. This is because Divine Smite gives you insane nova damage and allows you to beat the boss to a pulp without giving him time to react. Even more so if he’s a Fiend or Undead. Together with your versatility via spells, once your level is high, you’re set to be effective in any sort of encounter.
Core Abilities
It should be noted that unlike the Longsword build, which is meant to be an “all-rounder”, the Greatsword build should revolve around the abilities of GWM, meaning that “increasing your attack roll bonus” and “gaining advantage” are your top priorities. Now what to go with that?

Paladin
Fighting Style: As with Longsword builds, Defense is a good option for Sorcadins, and especially with how your AC is going to be lower than a Longsword build (despite the fact your HP is the same), you probably will want that +1 AC. Just because you’re going to be an offense-oriented build, doesn’t mean you can easily trash your defenses.
The effectiveness of Great Weapon Fighting, meanwhile, depends on your DM’s rulings. Some DMs rule that the re-rolling works on Divine Smite, in which case this ability is Sky Blue. Others rule that the re-rolling works on the original 2d6, in which case this ability is Purple. Sage Advice agrees with the latter, but I honestly don’t take Sage Advice that seriously (the whole point of TRPGs is that the DM has final say, and Sage Advice should be specifically for when a DM really doesn’t know what to do with a certain ruling), and many DMs still go with the former ruling. Ask your DM beforehand about his thoughts on the ruling of Great Weapon Fighting if you’re going to build a Greatsword character (be it Sorcadin or not - Paladins and Battle Masters all apply, with Divine Smite and Superiority Dice). I personally think that even with the former ruling, it’s not like Great Weapon Fighting will ever be a game-breaking choice.
Lay on Hands: It can be used to heal in-between fights (you have lower AC than a Longsword build, so you might get hit more often), or you can heal your Poisoned condition (which is fatal for any GWM build due to disadvantage on attack rolls). The fact you rely more on your attacks than a Longsword build means that this ability is extremely important for you. If you get poisoned during the middle of the fight and no one can neutralize your poison, it’s actually not a bad idea to use your action to heal yourself. Or, of course, you can still fling Fireballs with no problem though, so that’s another option.
Divine Smite: It works when your opponent’s AC is high and you’re afraid of using GWM. Also, you will often have advantage, meaning you will roll crit as twice as often. Crit+Smite can severely injure and perhaps even kill boss monsters on its own, so the fact you get advantage often is a major boost to the possibilities of this ability.
Extra Attack: If you go 6/14 (or 7/13) with Paladin/Sorcerer progression, the Extra Attack from Paladin 5, which increases the number of GWM -5/+10s you can fling per round, is a must-have.
However, you can also go with 3/17, using Favored Soul for the Sorcerer Origin, in which case this is unrequired. Losing Aura of Protection is painful, but chances are, your bonus from it will be only +3 or something anyways.
3/17 is better than 2/18, because Devotion paladins have an amazing Channel Divinity ability.
Aura of Protection: Arguably the strongest ability in the entire game, and the reason to go Paladin 6. Even for Greatsword builds, it’s good.
Improved Divine Smite: This is written here, not because it’s a core ability, but actually because it’s really not worth it, and I wanted to emphasize it. Extra damage is not something you should consider important either, since you already have enough of it from GWM (BTW, mathematically, if your original damage per hit is higher than a certain level, the “average damage per attack roll” becomes lower with using GWM, making using GWM a bad choice). And you want to be good at spellcasting.
Whatever you do, DO NOT GO PALADIN 11 with GWM builds. And since the Oaths that are good for GWM (Devotion and Vengeance) both have mediocre level 7 abilities, being a GWM build, you should stop Paladin progression at level 6. Any more is a waste, unless your choice is Oath is unoptimized and you are going either Ancients or Oathbreaker (in which case it will be worth it, but it’s better to go with S&B).
If you want the Aura of Vitality + Extended Spell combo, you should go S&B, not GWM.
Bless: Level 1 spell. This and GWM work together nuts. However, you’re probably more versatile with your casting than most of the other guys in your team who can use this spell as well, so if possible, you should politely ask the party Cleric to cast it on you, instead of using it yourself. Especially at higher levels, when Greater Invisibility and stuff start to kick in (or if you’re a Shadow Sorcerer - which you should be - this stands for lower levels as well. BTW, interestingly, Bless does not require the Cleric to be able to see you by RAW, unlike many other spells, which means you can be Blessed even while you’re shrouded in darkness... Rather strange).
Magic Weapon: Level 2 spell. Bypass resistance to non-magical weapons and gain bonus to hit, all packed in a nice, non-taxing Bonus Action. Upcasting it at level 4 makes the bonus +2, while at level 6 or higher it becomes a +3. However, it also requires concentration and cannot be used on already magical weapons, meaning that at higher levels it might start to taste bland.
Elemental Weapon does similar stuff, but IMO it’s inferior to Magic Weapon in almost all ways, ‘cause it requires at least a level 3 slot to use, uses up your main action, and you don’t really need that additional +1d4 magical damage in the first place. If it didn’t need concentration it would’ve been hell amazing,but the creators didn’t make it that way.

Sorcerer
Metamagic: Just like in the case with Longsword builds, do keep in mind that you get only two options, and the options don’t increase till Sorcerer level 10. Thus you should choose these wisely.
First, Quickened Spell is mandatory, so that’s that. Then you should go for either Heightened Spell (when you really want to kill someone) or Twinned Spell (use on stuff like Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Haste, or Booming Blade*). I’d generally say you get Twinned Spell first - the buff spells are very synergetic indeed with your abilities.
Since your CHA is going to be lower than a Longsword Paladin (in other words, the DC for your spells is a bit low), Heightened Spell is an ideal option in your case. However, depending on what spells you wish to use, Careful Spell can possibly become Sky Blue as well (spells like Web, Hypnotic Pattern and Stinking Cloud belong here. Emphasis on Web, which Restrains the enemies... Meaning that apart from gluing them in place and bestowing disadvantage on their attack rolls, you gain advantage on attacks against them!)
*NOTE-Some rulings by the creators say Green-Flame Blade cannot be twinned since it must choose two targets. However, as with all rulings, this depends on the DM, so ask beforehand.
Hold Person: Level 2 spell. Targets are limited to Humanoids, meaning it can be a rather campaign-situational spell, but paralyzing enemies with a level 2 slot is an insanely powerful effect - and most campaigns will have a good number of Humanoids to paralyze. Auto-crit means your Smites will work wonders, and more so with Quickened + Extra Attack. Unless your DM has officially stated that you will fight only Oozes for your entire career or something, this should be on your list.
Haste: Level 3 spell. This rating of Blue assumes you already are high-level enough to have Aura of Protection (in addition to either Resilient (CON)). Until you get that, this is Red.
+2 AC, advantage on DEX saves, and getting to take double the action (or one additional attack) is an amazing buff for anyone. It’s even better on yourself, given how you’re a good gish who wants extra turns all the time, and even better when you Twin it to affect some other powerful guy in your party as well.

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q654/SausyNinja/tumblr_mcff0hfOJC1qho1uao1_500_zpsf583e97e.gif
^Kiritsugu the Magus Killer, having his Time Alter ability, agrees that speeding up your time is a powerful strategy indeed.^
(Image by Ufotable)

However, Haste also has the weakness of making the target(s) waste a whole turn doing nothing after your concentration is broken.
This can be taken in two ways. The first way to think of it is that failing the concentration save is devastating, but this is not the real problem, especially since 16 CON + Resilient + Aura of Protection (+3) is enough to surpass a +10 bonus on its own, meaning you will succeed on the save all the time unless the damage is really big.
The real problem is that AFTER USING HASTE, YOU CANNOT USE OTHER CONCENTRATION SPELLS DURING THE FIGHT.

https://45.media.tumblr.com/07077cf474748d9331bc2c50b0c8cb50/tumblr_o0l6tjNSSd1sajb9no6_500.gif
"ARGGGHHHHH FUUUUUUUUUU"
^ Kiritsugu, after he realizes he can’t use other concentration spells for the rest of the fight. ^
(Image by Ufotable)

Thus, use Haste with caution and care. It’s a wonderful spell in the right moment, but not all moments are for Haste. Don’t be afraid to use it when it’s worth it. Don’t use it if you think you wanna use other concentration spells later too. And be aware: you have quite a damn lot of effective Concentration spells.

Greater Invisibility: Level 4 spell, and an absolute nosebleeder for almost any frontline character. It’s all the benefits of Darkness + Devil’s Sight or Eyes of the Dark, except it doesn’t hinder your friends, making this the better option (albeit costly). Requires concentration. Is it worth it? Most certainly. If this isn’t worth it, nothing really is.
Hold Monster: Level 5 spell. So like, you can now target any monster with Hold Person. I really don’t think I need to explain why that’s a good thing.
Paladin Oath Evaluation
This differs a lot with Longswords and Greatswords.

Oath of Devotion
Sacred Weapon synergizes so amazing with GWM. In fact it synergizes so well that it easily makes this option Sky Blue on its own.
Advantage does not stack. This means that if you want to hit as accurately as possibly, instead of having lots of abilities that give you advantage, you should have both abilities that boost your bonus to hit AND abilities that give you advantage.
Generally, 5e has a lot of ways to do the latter. Then how about the former? The answer is “not many”, since 5e is fundamentally designed so you don’t need to crunch together a dozen bonuses each time you make an attack (it seems the recent UA additions are starting to go against that design model though...). Paladin is unique in that sense in how it has both Bless, as well as the Sacred Weapon feature (in a sub-class). You should put this trait to your advantage*.
NOTE-This is actually a really bad pun, given how the whole point of Sacred Weapon is that it has NOTHING to do with advantage.
Oath Spells: A mixed bag of situational abilities that’s anyways extremely useful in how they’re free to take. All the Oath Spells options are good for you, considering how Sorcerers get so little spell selection, and you desperately need versatility .
Channel Divinity: Sacred Weapon: Repeat after me: It increases your bonus to hit. Repeat again, after me: It increases your bonus to hit. One last time, after me: It increases your bonus to hit.
IT F***ING INCREASES YOUR BONUS TO HIT!!!!!!!!!!!
Need I say more? This is THE reason to take this Oath.
Make sure to ask your DM if you can cast it before combat starts, to avoid losing your first turn doing nothing. Personally, I will permit it if it’s obvious that the adventurers had a chance to predict the upcoming fight (and also introduce enemies who buff themselves before combat, to make stuff equal). It does depend on the DM though.
Channel Divinity: Turn the Unholy: Too situational to be given an actual rating. It is certainly not bad when it can be used, though.
Aura of Devotion: Can’t be Charmed. Not “advantage”, you can’t be charmed. And sure it’s a nice ability, but it also sorta overlaps with racial abilities of an Elf or Half-Elf, and it’s also situational. A majority of Charming effects look at WIS, and with proficiency in WIS saves and Aura of Protection, chances are you’re gonna succeed on the save either way. If you’re going Devotion, level 6 is probably enough (unless you’re going level 9 for level 3 spells).

Oath of the Ancients
This is a really unique Oath in how it specifically allows you to be an extremely effective Mage Slayer without even taking the Mage Slayer Feat.
There are two reasons for this - the first obvious one being Aura of Warding, and the second one being Ensnaring Strike, a spell that rarely works on boss monsters with the exception of human Casters (!!), but is devastating if it goes off.
If your campaign is primarily about hunting evil Archmages and Witches, this becomes Blue. However, other from Ensnaring Strike, this Oath has little to add to GWM builds - and Ensnaring Strike is a situational spell.
WARNING: This rating specifically refers to when you go 7 levels in Paladin instead of 6. If you plan on going only Paladin 6, DO NOT CHOOSE THIS OATH.
Oath Spells: Apart from having Misty Step, the spell Ensnaring Strike (limited to only Ancients Paladins and Rangers) allows you to make a target Restrained (advantage!). Sadly, it doesn’t work on most boss monsters (powerful monsters tend to be Large or larger and also have high STR), with the rare exception of that evil necromancer or archmage or whatever, which is indeed a terrible shame given all the benefits of Restraining someone (if the boss monster is that sort of guy who is Medium or smaller and has low STR, this becomes a lot better).
Using Heightened Spell on Ensnaring Strike is a pretty good option in certain situations. See, due to the restrictions of Metamagic, you can’t Quicken and Heighten at the same time on a single spell, meaning that if you want to use your main action for Extra Attack but want to use your bonus action that turn to get attack advantage via spells, the options are very limited indeed. This is one way to do it, since Ensnaring Strike is a Bonus Action spell from the first place, and it’s indeed useful when you need it.
Channel Divinity: Nature’s Wrath: It’s not that it’s necessarily bad, it’s that Ensnaring Strike is generally the better option, being a bonus action. At least this one doesn’t require concentration. It’s not bad when it can be pulled off, so better than nothing.
Channel Divinity: Turn the Faithless: Same as Turn the Unholy - too situational to be given an actual rating, but certainly not bad when it can be used.
Aura of Warding: The selling point of this Oath. Just like I wrote in the Longsword section, it’s situational, but when it works it’s so amazing it can win the encounter on its own. Enemy casters tend to have no way to damage you besides spells (or that pathetic “bludgeon with staff” attack that doesn’t work on you anyways), and this can really cripple them like hell.

Oath of Vengeance
Vow of Enmity is one of the very rare options that give you advantage on attacks with a Bonus Action and without a save. However, advantage does not stack (unless your DM has ruled otherwise), meaning that, say, if you’re a Shadow Sorcerer or something that can easily gain advantage from a different source, this isn’t as attractive an option as it should be (even then, it’s a nice back-up option though).
This option is very close to Sky Blue, and if your DM rules that Sacred Weapon can never be cast before combat, or you simply like the idea of a Dark Knight, this becomes Sky Blue. You will probably not regret taking this Oath in a GWM build. If you feel like taking it, feel free to take it.
Oath Spells: This doesn’t give you much extra spell options when you compare it to the Sorcerer spell list. What it does is freeing up Sorcerer spell options and allowing you to choose more Sorcerer spells. That’s a pretty good thing.
Channel Divinity: Abjure Enemy: Not bad as means to keep someone from escaping or running towards the backrow casters. It’s easy to forget, but unlike you, most casters are fragile.
Channel Divinity: Vow of Enmity: It’s a Bonus Action, gives you advantage, and doesn’t require a save either. You want advantage. This is good for you. Eat it.
Relentless Avenger: Not bad. Not something worth the extra Paladin level either.

Oath of the Crown (SCAG)
What was probably the best Oath for S&B Sorcadins becomes what is arguably the worst option for GWM builds. Having not a single offense-oriented ability, Oath of the Crown is pure anti-synergy with GWM, and is to be absolutely avoided for anyone reading this section.
THIS sort of thing is exactly why I had to do the time-consuming task of dividing the sub-class rating section into three different parts based on the type of weapon you’re using, each with different ratings. Your weapon defines your combat style. Since your combat style is different, the importance of a lot of sub-class abilities change drastically as well.
See, most of the class guides out there assign only a “general” rating to the class and sub-class abilities. Yeah, well sure, it’s helpful, but it’s possible to be even more helpful by specifying when it’s Blue like you rated, and when it’s actually Red.
Say, if I just said that “Oath of the Crown makes a wonderful Sorcadin” and ended it there, a lot of people might misunderstand it and start choosing Oath of the Crown even for GWM builds. That is not the sort of incomplete guide I tend to create here. You want to optimize reading this, right?
Anyhow, let’s move on to rate the Oath of the Crown for GWM builds.
Oath Spells: Blue for builds that go Paladin more than 9 levels due to Spirit Guardians, Black for builds that go only 6 or 7. Not a bad list, but not as good as the other ones.
Channel Divinity: Champion Challenge: Unlike the Longsword Sorcadin, your AC is not as effective, and you should care more about “swiftly killing all your enemies before they reach the backrow” more than “keeping the enemies around you and not letting them go”. This ability that was Sky Blue for S&B becomes dull Black for GWM.
Channel Divinity: Turn the Tide: It’s not bad, it’s of course a nice ability to have. Just suits S&B more due to their “job”.
Divine Allegiance: Using up your reaction is generally something you want to keep away from, and the 5 feet radius makes it even worse. Could be worth using if the friend next to you is going to faint, in which case this is a good use of your reaction, but generally, I would stop at Paladin 6, even if you were to take this Oath for some reason.

Oathbreaker (DMG)
If you’re going go go Oathbreaker, the best weapon for you is actually not a Greatsword, but a Glaive or Halberd. That way Aura of Hate works most effectively.
Sadly, there isn’t a Polearm section in this guide (at least not yet). If there is one, this will be Sky Blue no-questions-asked in there, but here, it will be kept Black.
Since you have Extra Attack, Aura of Hate is good to have. Going level 7 is pretty tempting, and probably not a choice you will later regret (unless you actually ever hit level 20 and your Sorcerer 14 ability that you lost was amazing). Do keep in mind that having too much attack damage from the start may actually make using GWM a mathematically bad choice, which may contradict the theme of the build (but even then, having bonus damage is a good thing).
All in all, the abilities given by the Oathbreaker are generally good and allow you to be a pretty wonderful melee character. The reason why this option is regardless rated as Black is because while the individual abilities are powerful, they do not exactly synergize with GWM, meaning that the Oaths that do (Devotion and Vengeance) are better choices. For this reason, to make it more clear that those two Oaths are superior, this has been rated Black. It’s not that this option is bad - it’s just that there are better ones for GWM builds.
This Oath (or rather, the state of “Breaking an Oath”) specifically requires DM permission in how many associated characters will be evil. Whatever the case, it’s part of player manners to be cooperative to the team, so do keep that in mind, even when playing an Evil character.
Oathbreaker Spells: Every class needs something to balance itself out, and in the Oathbreaker’s case that appeared in its Spell List. The spells in here are not necessarily bad, but not the sort of stuff you will be using frequently either. Very situational and overall meh.
Channel Divinity: Control Undead: It’s situational, but also as broken as hell when it goes off. Sky Blue in the right campaign.
Channel Divinity: Dreadful Aspect: Copy-paste from Longsword: “The selling point of Oathbreakers in Sorcadin builds. The super-superb part of this ability is that the targets can’t re-attempt saves unless they get over 30 feet away from the Oathbreaker - there is no other way to escape the Frightened condition bestowed by this ability. But if you’ve already locked the targets into melee range, the targets must risk being hit by opportunity attacks to get over 30 feet away from you. And when that’s triggered, you use War Caster+Booming Blade to zap them to a crisp. This combination is absolutely devastating.”
Even with GWM builds, this is a nice ability to have, especially since unlike the “Champion Challenge” of the Oath of the Crown, this ability also includes a defensive option with frightening your enemies.
Aura of Hate: Works better with Extra Attack than it does with GFB and BB. Adding your CHA modifier to your damage rolls is good, and if your party includes a Necromancer, this ability becomes awesome beyond belief.
Copy-paste from Longsword: This ability can become detrimental for you if you face Fiends or Undead, but by RAW Divine Smite somehow still works with Oathbreakers (I really think they should change the damage type to Necrotic and change the preferred targets to other monster-types for Oathbreakers, but anyways), so you can Smite them harder to kill them first before they kill you (and don’t forget that powerful undead can become best friends with Control Undead). That, or you can utilize your high CHA and spellcasting capabilities to simply slink back into the backrow and fling Fireballs until your evil friends have all been extinguished from the battlefield.
Sorcerer Origin Evaluation

Draconic Bloodline
None of the abilities the Draconic Bloodline offers you are bad. All of them are good. It’s just that they don’t necessarily mesh with the concept of GWM.
Draconic Ancestor: Extremely campaign-dependent but can be useful in certain situations.
Draconic Resilience: Using a melee weapon requires you be in melee range. If you’re in melee range, you’re more likely to be killed. And most importantly, people die if they are killed (http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/593/peopledie.jpg), meaning that having extra HP is always important for a melee character.
Elemental Affinity: You generally don’t use Green-Flame Blade, which really downgrades this ability. Fireball remains buffed.
Dragon Wings: Being able to fly is even more interesting for GWM builds than it is for S&B builds in how you can now reach flying enemies and engage them in melee, without fearing of the caster losing concentration (S&B builds can go ranged as well via spells without losing their main selling point).

Wild Magic
The first thing to say: Wild Magic Sorcerer is actually not a bad choice for GWM builds. The advantage you gain from Tides of Chaos can be really synergetic if combined with GWM. The real problem lies in how Shadow Sorcerers are so overpowered, but if your DM bans UA, you might as well use this for your GWM builds.
The powers of this class largely depend on how often your DM is willing to activate Tides of Chaos. Depending on the DM, this can become possibly upgraded to Sky Blue.
Tides of Chaos requires neither an action nor a bonus action, and not even a reaction. If your DM is a willing person and you can pull it off with some frequence, this can become a pretty damn interesting build. You should ask beforehand about his thoughts on this matter.
Wild Magic Surge: Entertainment, which at times come with a price. It’s really fun and a good class, but not exactly the sort you look for in optimization. Since a lot of the effects harm the guys around you, make sure to always be in close range of your enemies.
Tides of Chaos: Advantage on anything, once per short rest! And it recharges whenever the DM “feels like it”. This is largely dependent on the DM, but with the right DM, can be abused to hell. Use it on your attack rolls for maximum effect, or alternatively, save yourself from a save-or-suck.
Bend Luck: Copy-paste from Longswords: “It’s like Bardic Inspiration, except you don’t need to give it beforehand. 1d4 might not seem like a large amount, but it’s very versatile in both boosting your friends and weakening your enemies. Works especially well with save-or-suck spells. Be careful how it expends 2 Sorcery Points and uses up your reaction - only save it for when you really need it.”
Controlled Chaos: Avoid turning into a potted plant by accident. That’s pretty nice.

Storm Sorcery (SCAG)
Everything I wrote for Longswords builds in here also stands for Greatswords: “This is a wonderful Sorcerous Origin option that is both thematic and powerful. Sadly, it doesn’t synergize well with Sorcadins.”
To add, GWM builds should try to maximize their attack accuracy as much as possible. The Storm Sorcerer has nothing to add in that sense, which is actually a negative thing rather than a neutral thing, and in that sense, even the often name-called (if not underrated) Wild Magic is better. The Storm Origin is good for pure Sorcerers, but deserves Purple for GWM Sorcadins.
Below is all copy-paste from Longswords, since I didn’t feel the need to change anything.
Wind Speaker: Great, so now you can speak with that raging Elemental that’s coming after the party to kill you! Better than nothing, but this ability will be important once in every, like, several hundred sessions (unless your DM is a good, creative DM who knows his job well, and specifically creates moments where this ability can be useful).
Tempestuous Magic: Your spells are generally going to be cast using Bonus Actions, and even if it’s cast with an Action, you don’t need to run away from your opponents.
Heart of the Storm: This ability is more important for Sorcadins than it is for pure Sorcerers in how you’re on the frontlines, and having a lot of enemies within 10 feet of you is a good thing, not a bad thing. Sadly, there are not many spells that deal Thunder or Lightning damage, and even when there are, dealing damage using spells is the least of your priorities.
Storm Guide: This is one of those abilities that can become Sky Blue with the right situations but is otherwise too, and I mean too situational to be considered an actual class ability. If your campaign is going to be about a bunch of adventuring pirates, your party needs a guy with this ability, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be you, given how almost nothing this Origin offers is beneficial for a Sorcadin.
Storm’s Fury: It’s like you have an unlimited supply of Hellish Rebuke, except with a less resisted damage type. Which is good. It also uses up your reaction, and thus robs you of opportunity-Booming-Blading and Shielding. Which is meh. Overall not bad, I mean, it’s still useful, but not something to get really excited over either.

Favored Soul (UA)
If you are going Paladin 6, this Origin is a joke. The level 1 and 6 abilities pertaining to proficiency and extra attack are basically worthless for you, since you already have them from another class. Chosen of the Gods frees up some of your Sorcerer spell selection depending on the Domain, but in general they overlap too much with Paladin and are not worth the effort. This is a terrible option for most GWM Sorcadins.
HOWEVER, if you are going to stop at Paladin 3 and take the rest in Sorcerer, this is pretty much the only Sorcerous Origin available to you - because otherwise you cannot gain Extra Attack. Now, it should be noted that 3/17 itself is a suboptimal option due to lack of Aura of Protection, but anyways, if you really want to go with it... Favored Soul is your Origin, no questions asked.
Chosen of the Gods: Read this as “bit more spell versatility”. Not that it makes you as versatile as you hope. Let’s look at the Domain candidates.
Knowledge prominently gives us Command, Suggestion, Arcane Eye and Scrying. Not bad, but more of out-of-combat stuff than in-combat. Having Suggestion constantly ready gives us the freedom to take 1 extra Sorcerer spell. Not bad. Not the sort of stuff you expect from being a “Chosen of the Gods” either.
Life has honestly not much to give us, which is not a surprise, since all the important spells are already on the Paladin list, and we don’t need that many Paladin spells to make a strong Sorcadin.
Light is not bad, freeing up Sorcerer spell selection with Fireball and Wall of Fire. It also has Faerie Fire and Scrying, which are good spells. Faerie Fire is especially beneficial for Greatsword builds, but in all honesty, you’d rather have someone else in the party cast it.
Nature is a bag of situational spells that is not really that bad, but not the sort of stuff you would trade the level 1 and 6 abilities of the other Origins for.
Tempest has nothing special about it.
Trickery is an actually pretty good list, and is probably the best choice, since it has Mirror Image, Dispel Magic, Polymorph and Dominate Person, allowing you to choose a lot more Sorcerer spells.
War has spells like Spiritual Weapon, Magic Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Hold Monster, so it’s an okay choice.
Death (DMG) is honestly bad.
Arcana (SCAG) is likewise meh.
Bonus Proficiencies: It’s not really a “bonus” proficiency when you already have it.
Extra Attack: It’s not really an “extra” attack when you already have it from another source. HOWEVER, if you’re going 3/17, this is your only way to get Extra Attack. Keep in mind it’s at level 6, not 5, meaning that (together with the fact you will start off with 1 or 2 Paladin levels) you will get Extra Attack several levels late.
Divine Wings: Same as the Draconic Bloodline ability.

Shadow (UA)
Copy-paste from Longsword: “Also known as the Emo Sorcerer. The “Quirks” list included in the UA article is really fascinating, and IMO a list that should be added to any new supplements WotC publishes, but that’s not really relevant to this guide. What is relevant to this guide is that Shadow Sorcerers are a pretty strong - if not overpowered - choice of Origin that can both tank and attack nicely.”
Now, what’s important here is Darkness + Magical Darkvision, easily one of the most overpowered abilities in the game. Advantage on all your attacks, disadvantage on all attacks against you, and not getting targeted by enemy spells and abilities. Everything in this package screams “WIN”, and here, I’ll say it honestly and loudly, THIS IS THE SUB-CLASS FOR GWM BUILDS. If you want to optimize a GWM Paladin/Sorcerer build, there is no excuse to not taking this Origin. It’s that strong. It’s also that broken. I honestly wouldn’t permit it as it is in my games, and that’s a natural thing, since Unearthed Arcana is supposed to be “test-play material”, not “official material”.
Eyes of the Dark: At level 1 it’s a Darkvision ability. From level 2 it allows you to cast an uber-empowered version of an extremely versatile Level 2 spell at the cost of 1 Sorcery Point, which is honestly nuts. It’s a badly designed ability, so you might want to ask your DM beforehand if it’s really okay to use this. My suggestion is to make it cost 2 Sorcery Points, in my games. And even then, it’s still strong.
This ability works with S&B builds as well, but being a GWM build, you can make the most out of it. You’ll be sorta similar to how a Bladelock works (Bladelocks also use Darkness+Devil’s Sight - except you actually do it better...)
Strength of the Grave: Emergency button for when you’re going to faint. Which is very useful for a tank like you.
Hound of Ill Omen: Spending 3 Sorcery Points as a Bonus Action to summon forth a CR 1 creature that also bestows an enemy disadvantage on the saving throws of your spells. While a bit costly, this is a strictly better version of Heightened Spell. And Heightened Spell was already good...
Even better for GWM builds, since your spell save DC will likely be 1 or 2 points lagging behind that of a S&B build, and you need a way to improve it. This is a wonderful way to improve it.
Shadow Walk: While a bit situational, bonus action teleport of 120 feet is an extremely juicy ability for a frontline martial character who constantly wants to be in melee range of someone in the enemy team. Use this to teleport next to the enemy caster while you’ve got Darkness on your weapon, and the enemy becomes blinded, becoming unable to cast Spells that target. Hell amazing, if not broken. IMO this should have a cost, like 1 or 2 Sorcery Points or something.
Level Progression

Now, unlike in the case with S&b, there is actually only one way to effectively progress levels in a GWM Sorcadin build. It’s to:

Go Paladin 6 or 7, and go Sorc all the way from there
The reason is fairly simple and easy to understand: You want to get Extra Attack as fast as possible. And if you’ve already went Paladin 5, you should keep on going Paladin till you hit either 6 or 7, for Aura of Protection, as well as the level 7 Paladin ability (if it’s one worth taking. If not, stop at 6). After that, Sorcerer. This is the only real way to go for a GWM build.
This means that GWM Sorcadin builds will generally start to get “real” at around level 9 or higher. Until that, it’s not that different from a normal GWM Paladin. Do keep that in mind if joining a low-level campaign.

HOWEVER, if you are going Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 17, you should go:

Paladin 1 or 2, proceed to go Sorcerer 1 to 6 > Paladin 3 > Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 17
You need to start Paladin for the heavy armor and WIS save proficiency. Then go Sorcerer, taking Resilient (CON) and Extra Attack. You can go straight to Sorcerer after the first level, acting as more of a Sorcerer with really high AC till you become level 7, or you can get Divine Smite and the Paladin spells with a level 2 dip and become a gish.
After that, get your Paladin level to 3 (here you gain access to Oath features like Sacred Weapon and Vow of Enmity), and once that’s done, go Sorcerer all the way.

3/17 is an overall sub-optimal build in how you don’t get the super-powerful Aura of Protection and neither do you get as many Origin features (your Origin features are mainly stuff that you would have gotten from extra Paladin levels anyway), but compared to the 6/14, you do gain these benefits:
More higher-level spells: Apart from having 1 more level 5 slot than normal Sorcadins, you get access to Wish (albeit at level 20) and other awesome level 8 and 9 spells. (Sadly, being a Sorcerer, you don’t get access to Foresight, the most powerful spell in the world for gish builds. If you want Foresight, go Bladelock, because that’s another pretty good gish option.)
More Sorcery Points: It’s honestly not that much, just 3 extra points.
One more Metamagic Option: While normal Sorcadins get only 3 options, you get 4. I’d choose Careful, Heightened, Quickened, and Twinned, but other people may say otherwise. Depending on the campaign, Subtle may be a good choice.

Notice that all of these benefits are exclusive to higher levels, and that at the same time, at high levels, having bad save bonuses can be lethal. All in all I think 6/14 is better, but if you still want to go 3/17, take a look at the above info for some advice.

...That said, if your campaign is going to end before level 12, going Paladin 2 or 3 / Favored Soul X can be the better option. Especially if it starts at level 8 or higher (in which you can gain War Caster and Extra Attack from the start).

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:00 AM

What’s Your Weapon of Choice?
Part 3: Rapier

http://blog-imgs-42.fc2.com/s/o/t/sotohan/sotohan_UBW6_img116.gif
"What!? You posted this guide without creating the section for an entire sub-class!?"
"Yeah!"
"I can't believe you! F*** off!!"
(Image by Ufotable)

SORRY!!! This area of the guide is still under construction. The reason is simple: I have not used one yet. Well, to be exact I have, but it was in a stat-rolling game, only several sessions (short campaign), and also at a low level (the build was Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6 since the DM declared the game will not advance to level 9 and higher), and thus I don’t know if it can be classified something I can call actual experience. I decided that instead of theory-crafting, I should wait till I can get enough experience to talk with more confidence.

However, even with that limited experience, I can say that going Draconic Sorcerer is almost mandatory. Higher AC and HP plus Elemental Affinity is, just... I mean, it’s just too good to pass.

Apart from 6/14, I am currently thinking of some sort of really weird Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 8 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 3 multiclass (Draconic, Assassin, Battle Master - Oath undecided) that utilizes Stealth with Assassinate and keeps on hurling Divine Smite and Superiority Dice on top of those critical hits. I imagine its nova will be hilarious. He/she will probably suffer from CON 14 and CHA 16, though.
I may someday use this build and see how it works out.

I am willing to try out DEX Sorcadins whenever I get the next chance, but if anyone has experience of DEX builds, please do help me with creating this section... or rather, please let me help you create this section.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:01 AM

Waiting for one's arrival
Feats and More Multiclassing

https://i.imgur.com/TMWSXE9.gif
Blade Mastery.
...Yeah, I think that’s Blade Mastery all right...
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

Feats
Now, the first thing I must mention here is that ASIs are amazing for Sorcadins. If you’re using a Greatsword, pumping your STR is top priority, and if you’re using a Rapier, you’d want good DEX for all the associated benefits, as well as good CHA. And if your weapon is a Longsword, while you may not need that much STR to be effective, you will want to use those leftover ASIs for pumping CHA, possibly to max.

Even if you have nothing in particular to do, pumping CHA to improve your Sorcerer Spellcasting DC and Aura of Protection, or taking additional STR to get your GWM attacks to be more accurate, or improving DEX for better AC, Stealth checks, initiative, and DEX saves is probably more important than becoming a bit lucky or getting able to cast rituals. It is generally not a good idea for Sorcadins to take many Feats (unless it comes from being Variant Human, to get +1 to a particular odd ability score - as in the cases with Heavy Armor Master, Gourmand, and the lot. The Feats for Variant Human are already rated in post #3, Part 2 of the guide, “Races and Stats”, in “Race Evaluation (STR Build)”).

Thus, I think this part of the guide is honestly close to unneeded. But let’s do it anyway, picking up just the important choices.

Also adding in ASIs to explain how important they are.

War Caster: Mandatory if you’re holding stuff in both hands during combat. Combine with Booming Blade to crisp fleeing foes. And it improves your concentration as well.
CHA +2: F*** YEAH. Make your spells harder to resist, prepare more Paladin spells, improve ALL your saving throws, and if you have Elemental Affinity, boost your DPR as well. You should have at least 18, and if possible 20 CHA, by the time you hit level 20 (if you ever do). For you, this is more important than pumping STR.
+1 to two stats: This rating assumes that two of your STR, CON and CHA are odd numbers before you took it, and you boosted those odd stats. There’s no reason not to do this, since having odd ability scores is nothing but a pure waste in 5e mechanics.
Inspiring Leader: I’d say this is generally better than CON +2 for you, because it basically increases your - and your entire party’s - HP by your level + your CHA mod in-between every single short rest (whereas CON +2 does improve your concentration, but in terms of HP, increases it by your level only once per long rest, and it’s also limited to yourself). You don’t have any abilities related to temporary HP, so no anti-synergy issues (the Bladelock in your party might develop an inferiority complex though).
This Feat scales quite nicely. Starts off at 4 temporary HP per short rest to everybody, but at level 20, it becomes 25 temporary HP per short rest (perhaps less if your CHA is not maxed out, but still, it’s good).
Heavy Armor Master: This rating assumes your STR was odd and your CON and CHA were even before you took it (the easiest way to create this situation being taking this at level 1 using Variant Human). Otherwise, do not take this.
This Feat improves your tankiness, especially useful against low-CR hordes. While it does not scale, it certainly stays good till high levels.
Resilient (CON): This rating assumes your CON was odd and your STR and CHA were even before you took it (the easiest way to create this situation being taking this at level 1 using Variant Human). Otherwise, do not take this.
This Feat and War Caster somewhat overlap in usage, but this also helps you fight Drow and other monsters which have nasty abilities that require CON saves. Getting Poisoned is honestly not that much of an issue for you (you can use Lay on Hands to end it), but getting paralyzed or fainting can be dreadful, not to mention not applicable with Lay on Hands, so this is somewhat good for those situations.
Blade Mastery (UA): Apart from +1 bonus to hit (similar to STR +2), this also gives you two extra abilities, which are “+1 AC as a reaction”, and “advantage on opportunity attacks”. Both of these are good - however, the first ability is not very synergetic with Shield or BB + War Caster, so you may not find yourself using it so much, and if your DM rules that the advantage does not get applied to Booming Blade (by RAW BB does not get advantage - War Caster states that you “cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack), the second ability may not be as attractive either.
It all depends on the DM. If your DM rules that advantage gets applied to BB, I think this is better than STR +2, but if your DM rules it does not, and you want stronger attacks, you might as well simply go STR +2.
I personally think it’s okay to give advantage to BB, since it makes more in-game logical sense (how come a master of blade-wielding can’t apply his skills to his attacks, just because there’s elemental energy zapping through the blade?), but some DMs who are more strict with RAW may think differently.
STR +2: For reasons stated above, Blade Mastery can be better depending on your DM. If you really want more accuracy and damage, feel free to boost your STR, but in all honesty, it’s not the most optimized option. DPR isn’t your thing, from the start.
CON +2: For reasons stated above, Inspiring Leader is better. If you really want more accuracy and damage, feel free to boost your STR, but in all honesty, it’s not the most optimized option.
GWM builds require heavy investment in STR, and thus a lot of dedication in ASIs, to be optimized. Thus, sadly, there is not much room for original customization.

Great Weapon Master: This isn’t really something you need, it’s the thing everything in this part of the guide assumes you already have.
Resilient (CON): Since the creators of the game declared that you can hold a greatsword in one hand while performing somatic and material components for a spell, War Caster is not mandatory for Greatsword builds. You might as well take this feat that makes you better at CON saves in general, not only concentration saves.
Monster abilities that paralyze or poison (both fatal for GWM builds) generally use CON saves. Making yourself better against these crippling debuffs is very important for you. War Caster doesn’t give you that benefit.
Starting Variant Human with 15-8-15-8-8-15, +1 STR and +1 CHA, and eventually getting this feat to get 16 STR, CON, and CHA is the easiest way to optimize a GWM Sorcadin.
Blade Mastery (UA): +1 to hit and advantage on opportunity attacks make this Feat amazing for GWM builds. +1 AC as a reaction is not something you’ll use with much frequence, but having more options is not a bad thing.
The most important thing is that this Feat allows you to get bonuses to hit on top of your STR and proficiency. You should get STR 20 and this Feat, if possible.
STR +2: Unless you have good reason to, take this twice and max out your STR. Increasing your bonus to hit is top priority.
Notice that adding up GWM, Resilient (CON), Blade Mastery, and two STR ASIs, you’ve already used up all possible ASIs/Feat slots you get over the course of your entire career. Taking other options requires you to skip at least one of these, and most of the time, it’s not worth it.
War Caster: This rating assumes you went Resilient (CON), in which case this Feat becomes not very appealing - especially since you want to max out STR and don’t have that many left.
(As aforementioned, I have not played this build much, so consider these ratings to be mere assumptions. Will edit later in accordance to personal experience and opinions gathered from people on these forums.)

War Caster: Same as Longswords: Mandatory if you’re holding stuff in both hands during combat. Combine with Booming Blade to crisp fleeing foes. And it improves your concentration as well.
DEX +2: Improving DEX also means improving your AC, Stealth, initiative, and DEX saves. This is a case where it’s almost strictly better than taking Blade Mastery. Your DEX should be minimum 18. 20 is probably a good idea as well.
CHA +2: Improve your spellcasting and all your saving throws. Solid choice.

https://myanimelist.cdn-dena.com/s/common/uploaded_files/1444621214-2861aeafe26c3016562d55fbd31697eb.gif
Because real casters learn Kung-Fu.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

Multiclassing

Yeah, you’re already a multiclass build. I’m talking about taking levels in the other ten classes.

Most of the time, multiclassing will probably result in a reduction of Sorcerer levels. However, when doing so, do keep in mind that Sorcery Points rise together with Sorcerer level, meaning that if you have only a few levels in Sorcerer and go multiclass into a lot of other classes, you cannot use Metamagic as often as a normal Paladin/Sorcerer build. While Quickened and Careful spell are relatively economical, options such as Twinned and Heightened spell may eat through Sorcery Points too quickly to be chosen as Metamagic options in these cases. While multiclass of course has its benefits, it will reduce your resources, and no one can say that it will be ultimately a good idea (of course, no one can say that it will be always be a bad idea though).

For most builds, Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 6 is a pretty important milestone. You get Aura of Protection, level 3 spells, your level 6 Sorcerous Origin ability, and the spell slot equivalent of a level 9 Caster (four level 1s, three level 2s, three level 3s, three level 4s, and one level 5).

However, there’s a quite lot of powerful level 4 Sorcerer spells, like Greater Invisibility and Polymorph. Going 6/8 gives you level 4 spells, one ASI/Feat, and the spell slot equivalent of a level 11 Caster (four level 1s, three level 2s, three level 3s, three level 4s, two level 5s, and one level 6). This is another good place to start multiclassing.

If you start multiclassing into a third class before these levels, you will suffer from having very little Sorcery Points. I advice you do not do this.
The first thing to note is that the classes that have restrictions pertaining to INT and WIS can never, ever be taken. That means no multiclassing into Cleric, Druid, Monk, Ranger, and Wizard. This leaves Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Rogue, and Warlock (Rogue is exclusive to DEX builds).

For Longsword + Shield builds, you’re honestly better off not multiclassing IMO. You want that Animate Objects (Sorcerer 9), and so do you want a third Metamagic option (Sorcerer 10). Then you feel you want Sorcerer 11 for Mass Suggestion, and Sorcerer 12 for an extra ASI... When you realize, the next level in Sorcerer gives you level 7 spells, and the final level gives you at-will flight, or something just as awesome. Overall I would not recommend it.
But if you really want to, that’s your choice.

Barbarian 1: Being able to tank better than any other class is a good thing, and it’s also synergetic with your concept. Sadly, not being able to use, or even concentrate on spells during the duration of Rage and not being able to wear Heavy Armor while you do so is too much of a drawback to be considered “good”. Besides, your selling point is versatility, being able to choose the best option for every turn. While raging, if you want to use a spell to help your friends, you need to end the Rage (by using up a Bonus Action).
Since your DEX will be either 8 or 10, your AC without heavy armor will be beyond terrible.
If you want to be tanky, just use Greater Invisibility, or Polymorph into a T-Rex, instead of delaying your Caster level progression.
I think Paladin/Barbarian (no levels in Sorcerer) is a pretty interesting combination (I’ve seen a friend use it and it worked out better than on first glance), for the aforementioned reason that you can use Divine Smite while raging (Reckless Attack for more crits). It does require you to have 13 STR and CHA though, and you still can’t wear Heavy Armor. My friend had no problems because it was stat-rolling, but in point-buy, will probably be worse.
Bard 1: Gain 5 Bardic Inspiration Dice that can help your friends make attack rolls or saving throws. Good ability to have, but 5 per day is honestly not that much (can be a lesser number if your CHA is lower), and this ability requires Font of Inspiration (the level 5 ability) to be something that can be considered truly powerful. Of the level 1 spells, Healing Word is a good choice.
Bard (Lore) 6: So it’s Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 8/ Bard 6. I have not played this build before, but since it does seem fun, I want to use it someday.
You never gain level 5, 6, or 7 spells (while you gain the spell slots of a Level 17 Caster), but you instead gain 9 extra choices of level 3 or lower spells, which can improve your versatility in certain situations. You also get Font of Inspiration, meaning you can buff your friends all day. You will never run out of level 1 to 3 spells to cast due to Font of Magic and Upcasting, and to be honest, a lot of the low-level spells remain powerful even at high levels, so this probably isn’t that bad of an option as it might seem on first glance. You also become darn good with Skills.
Going Lore Bard also allows you to debuff your enemies, and also gives you access to any two level 3 or lower spells of your choice. Some good choices are Conjure Animals (upcast for absolute insanity) and Aura of Vitality.
No, this is not your most optimized Sorcadin build, it’s rather something of its own... But it truly does seem interesting.
Fighter 2: Gain an ability that heals you once per short rest, and also another ability that allows you to take an extra action. What it says on the package is pretty good, but sadly, it’s not worth taking less Caster levels. And as for Action Surge, you can already do similar stuff with Quickened Spell.
Warlock 1 (not Undying Light with Draconic Sorcerer): With a 1 level dip, you do not get the benefits of Eldritch Invocations. What you do get is the Armor of Agathys spell, which is quite amazing when upcast. With a level 5 slot, you gain 25 temporary HP (a level 5 Cure Wounds heals 27.5 HP with 20 CHA, so it’s about roughly the same amount) and also get to deal 25 damage to anyone who attacks you. And it does not require concentration either.
IMO Hex is honestly meh for you except in certain situations, due to the concentration issue.
Archfey gives you Faerie Fire and a decent control ability. Fiend gives you Command and a nice healing resource that gets re-charged every time you kill somebody. GOO gives you two good low-level utility spells to choose from (Tasha’s Hideous Laughter and Dissonant Whispers - but if you take Agathys, you can choose only one of these, since Warlock 1 gets only 2 spells to choose from) as well as limited telepathy. All are good choices.
You also get to cast 1 more Shield per short rest. That or, one extra smite.
Warlock 2 (not Undying Light with Draconic Sorcerer): A lot of people dip Warlock 2 for better Blasting. You are mainly a frontline warrior, but having an alternative attack option is useful for when you don’t want to expend a spell slot but the enemies are over 30 feet away from you (this can happen).
Certain invocations are interesting, but IMO, are not worth the 2 level lag in Sorcerer progression on their own. The only reasons this is not red are because now you get to heal uses of the Shield spell (or a Divine Smite) twice per short rest, because the Fiendish Vigor Eldritch Invocation allows you to heal either 1d4+4 or 8 temporary HP in-between every single battle (8 if your DM rules by RAW that you can re-cast it as many times as you want in-between fights till you roll a 4 with 1d4, and 1d4+4 if your DM rules that you cannot re-cast it till it’ s gone), and because the Warlock level 1 spells are pretty decent and add extra options.
Warlock 1 (Undying Light @Draconic Sorcerer): I do not allow the Undying Light (UA) warlock patron in my games for two reasons. The first is that it’s overpowered. The second is that the idea of commiting your soul to this vague concept of “positive energy” is not only really hard to understand but also dull and overall not so “eldritchy”, if eldritchy is even a word. Anyhow, I think it doesn’t mesh with the core concept of Warlocks, this eerie, creepy guy who makes contracts with these unfathomable beings of great power. So I really hate it.
But if your DM allows it, you’re an optimizer at heart, and you have a good character idea and/or an explanation as to how this guy gained the powers of this “Undying Light Warlock”, it’s a strong choice.
Apart from the extra use of Shield or Divine Smite per short rest, Draconic Sorcerers get a massive boost from this dip - one that most DMs will frown upon as too excessive power-gaming. The Radiant Soul ability of Undying Light is honestly terribly designed in how it by RAW stacks with the Elemental Affinity of Draconic Sorcerer for just a 1 level dip. It should be a level 6 ability or something, but whoever created this was f***ing stupi... Okay, I mean, not very smart, so it’s pretty damn overpowered right now.
Combined with Elemental Affinity, you have +10 damage to all your GFBs and Fireballs and Walls of Fire, as well as the Firestorm you gain at your last level. Are you really serious? I mean, is there actually any reason to take Great Weapon Master when this exists? I really hope they fix this problem by the time they release this as an official product.
BTW, the Paladin spell Divine Favor becomes a decent use of a level 1 slot if combined with Radiant Soul (though concentration issues and the fact it works better with Extra Attack than GFB keep it from becoming as effective as one may think). Hellish Rebuke also becomes a pretty interesting option, and it’s listed in the Warlock spell list, so you might as well take it.
Warlock 2 (Undying Light @Draconic Sorcerer): You gain Eldritch Invocations, like Agonizing and/or Repelling Blast which can boost your Blasting (as a secondary option), or Fiendish Vigor, which makes you tankier.
BTW, at level 11 to 16, your Eldritch Blasts deal 3d10+15 damage, spread over 3 attacks, while Green-Flame Blade inflicts 3d8+13 to one target and 2d8+5 to another, all in one attack roll. Eldritch Blast is a better damaging option if no two creatures are standing next to each other, and the risk of all three blasts missing is not very high. GFB does more damage, but is rather unreliable unless you have advantage on the attack (if you do, it’s amazing).
Warlock 3 (Undying Light @Draconic Sorcerer): Comes at the cost of one ASI. You get level 2 slots, which can be used for Mirror Image, Web, Misty Step, and upcasting Hellish Rebuke. If they end up not being used when you take a short rest, convert them into Sorcery Points.
Pact of the Blade is redundant, so let’s go with either Chain or Tome. If your DM rules that Chain allows you to get the Imp or Quasit familiar that gives you Magical Resistance, I advice you take Chain. Otherwise, Tome opens up a lot of versatility options.
Warlock 6 (Undying Light @Draconic Sorcerer):
On first glance, it seems like this build can hurl around Fireballs better than normal Sorcerers. However, since you took 6 levels in Warlock, you lose access to level 5, 6, and 7 spells, and also do not gain level 7, 8, and 9 slots. That plus, you lose 6 points from going 6 less levels in Sorcerer. The lost slots and the lost levels accumulate to be 32 Sorcery Points, and re-converting these to level 3 spell slots (each one being ), that’s 6 of them. Which means that if you take only 2 short rests per adventuring day, pure Sorcadins can fire Fireballs just as frequently.
What made me mention this as a valid option (not an optimized one, but still) is the Searing Vengeance ability that is amazing for any frontline tank. Basically, when you faint, you regain half your HP and come back to life, while blinding the foes around you as well. This is a perfect example of an ability that shows how Unearthed Arcana is really in “test-play mode”, and in all honesty it’s bad design.
Is it worth all the spellcasting? Probably not. But you also do gain the Pact abilities (Tome or Chain) as well, so if you want, you could.

Barbarian: Look at “Longsword” for my rambling. The fact Rage requires you to not wear heavy armor makes this ability pointless for you, especially since your DEX is either 8 or 10 and you will be terrible with Unarmored Defense.
Reckless Attack (gained at level 2) seems like it could be good, but bestowing advantage on all your enemies’ attacks is too much of a cost unless you also use Rage together with it... And if you try using Rage, your AC will be as bad as that of a pure Caster. Overall meh.
Bard: Your CHA is probably only 16, meaning these sorts of multiclassing are as not as effective as they are for Longsword builds.
Fighter 3 or 4 (Battle Master): Battle Master increases your attacks’ accuracy (very important for a GWM build) and also gives you new interesting options such as Riposte. Superiority Dice are regained on a short rest, so no fear of running out of them.
Going Fighter 4 gives you an ASI in exchange for 1 Caster level progression and level 6 spells.
You do lose 3 or 4 Caster levels, but you still get 10 or 11 Sorcerer levels and 13 or 14 Caster levels, so not that bad. If you compare yourself to the Eldritch Knight, you can see that you remain pretty powerful (not that you’re absolutely superior to them, but rather that delayed spellcasting progression isn’t that much of a problem, since Eldritch Knights, with worse spellcasting, are still considered good).
Warlock 1, 2: Get Armor of Agathys. Have fun. Becomes doubtful if your campaign may reach level 20, since the Shadow Walk ability of Shadow Sorcerer 14 is quite strong.

Barbarian 1: This actually might be a good dip, though I have not testplayed yet so I cannot say for sure. You don’t wear heavy armor from the start, so you essentially gain the benefits of Stoneskin as a bonus action (it doesn’t cost concentration, but you can’t concentrate on or even activate spells while Raging). Bear Totem gives you resistance to almost everything at level 3, but the extra two levels are probably better off used to invest in Sorcerer for more casting high-level spells and more Sorcery Points.
Bard: Just like Greatsword builds, your CHA is not maxed out, meaning the benefits of going Bard are somewhat lessened.
Fighter 2, 3: On its own, honestly not that much. But they synergize quite a lot with the Assassin. This build is more of an Assassin variant than a Sorcadin variant, though.
Rogue 3 (Assassin): I am yet to actually play this, so this rating is only a temporary one, but I think Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 8 / Assassin 3 / Fighter 3 makes a pretty interesting Assassin variant that has good AC, healing, half-casting, and over-the-top nova. Critical Hit + Divine Smite + Superiority Dice add up to be quite a something, you know.
For instance, Rapier + Sneak Attack + Level 2 Divine Smite + Fighting Maneuver is 2d8+6d6+6d8+2d8 = 6d6 + 10d8 = 21 + 45 = 66 damage average, and together with your DEX bonus, becomes about 70 damage on hit. Using Action Surge you can do three more attacks (they don’t benefit from Sneak Attack though), which, assuming DEX 18, do 6d8+12=39 damage without adding anything. But you will probably add superiority dice (2d8, average 9 damage) and Divine Smite (4d8, average 18 damage with a level 1 slot, and average 9 damage higher per extra level), so that will probably amount to be something around 150 damage in a single round. Even more, if you use Sorcery Points to fuel bonus action Green-Flame or Booming Blade.
Warlock 1, 2: Reasons to go this way are explained in the Longsword section. Think twice before taking this if you are certain you will go to level 20, though, since getting to fly (the Draconic Sorcerer ability at level 14) is quite good.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:02 AM

I have no regrets. This is the only path
Choosing Your Spells Part 1: Sorcerer (Low Levels)

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Megumin casts Fireball!!
(Image Copyright Natsume Akatsuki)

Confession: I am generally a very lazy person.

If I felt that the current, pre-existing guides for Sorcerers can be used straight for evaluation of Sorcadin spells, instead of writing this section, I would have just wrote “LOOK AT THE OTHER GUIDES” and be done with it. That’s what I did with the core class abilities of Paladins and Sorcerers.

And indeed I will say that for Paladin spells. There are a lot of good guides about Paladins, them being listed in the 5e guides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491) thread, and you can look at the stuff there for help. The spells that are important for Paladins and the spells that are important for Sorcerers are not that much different.

However, that’s not how things can go with Sorcerers.

Though I am generally very lazy, I also know when I should work hard. This is one such case, because sadly, the pre-existing evaluations of spells for Sorcerers cannot be so simply converted into the evaluations of a Sorcadin spell list.

This does not mean, in any way, that the pre-existing guides suck. They’re indeed wonderful at evaluating the spell list of a full Sorcerer, that’s nothing to doubt. But Sorcadins are, as I’ve already told you, a class of its own. It’s a lot different from Sorcerers (while it’s probably a bit similar to a Paladin). Thus their selection of spells should be different from pure Sorcerers as well, meaning that the pre-existing Pure Sorcerer guides cannot be simply copy-pasted into this section.

Another thing: I’ve sorted the spells, not only by spell level, but also by their “genre” - I’ve divided the spells into 6 sections per level, based on usage (some sections are completely hollow for certain levels, and some spells belong in multiple sections).
You should have a good balance of these spells - for instance, just because you want to cripple your enemies, having 90% of your spells be spells that “weaken your enemies” will probably not be as effective as you think, because it goes against the whole Caster premise of versatility. You should always have a dozen options to choose from, so make sure to keep a good balance of these spells (with the exception of Blasting spells - you don’t need any of them till you get Fireball).

Since the evaluation is too long to fit in a single post, I’ve divided this section into two parts.

NOTE 1: Since this is an optimization guide, I will NOT list all the spells that exist in the Sorcerer spell list. Generally speaking, those who are not mentioned are those who are not worth mentioning. If you’re not sure whether I missed something, please comment so and I will explain my reasons, or simply agree with you and edit this post.
If multiple people say they want a full rating of all Sorcerer spells, I might feel like doing so, but for now, I’m not doing that task.

NOTE 2: You should probably leave the situational spells, like Feather Fall and Water Breathing, to your Wizard. Remember that Sorcerers can learn only a limited number of spells.

Spell Genre
Blasting
Spells like Fireball belong here. Almost all the Blasting spells you take should be AoE. This is because warriors are generally already good enough at severely damaging singular enemies, but bad at severely damaging multiple enemies in a turn, meaning that single-target damaging options will most likely be never used, while AoE options can come up to be useful every now and then.
Self Protection
Shield, Mirror Image and the sort. These spells make up for your bit-low HP and easily turn what’s a futile scrawny kid into an invincible behemoth that’s loads tankier than the average pure Fighter.
Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Spells like Bless and Invisibility belong here. You have the powers required to make the Rogue even better at roguing, or make the Fighter even better at fighting. That’s obviously extremely beneficial for the entire team. Do be aware that most of these spells require concentration, so you constantly need to make the right decisions of “how” exactly to buff your team. Do not use them randomly or without much thought.
Weaken Enemies
Some of these spells, like Hold Person, target just one enemy (unless you upcast it). Others, like Hypnotic Pattern, are AoE spells that can cripple multiple enemies at once (use together with Careful Spell for maximum efficiency). Either way, these are awesome. The former is to be used against powerful bosses, while the latter is to be used against hordes, and to adapt to all sorts of situations, you should have both of them if possible. It may be difficult depending on your spell selection - Sorcerers have a very limited number of spells they can memorize - but it is definitely worth the effort.
Field Control
Spells like Web, Stinking Cloud, and Wall of Fire belong in here. What can be said about these spells in general is that Careful Spell becomes Sky-Blue wonderful when paired with them (especially the ones that don’t deal damage). Having the enemies wasting their turns coughing and reeling while your entire team (equipped with magical gas masks crafted from Careful Spell) steamrolls them is surely a hilarious moment.
If your DM uses battle grids for combat, you should always have at least 1, and preferably over 2, Field Control spells. Manipulating the field is a godly ability. If it’s theater of mind, it’s not as important, but if you’re good at convincing the DM that all the enemy creatures belong in the area of Wall of Fire, it might become just as important again.
Out-of-Combat
Spells like Minor Illusion and Suggestion belong here (though these can actually be used in-combat as well). These spells give you role-play versatility, and if done right, can make you progress within the plot much more efficiently then mindlessly hacking your way through.
These spells can potentially turn the tides of a combat as well... Most of the time, by using it before combat. For instance, before walking into the bandits’ base, you can use Minor Illusion to mimic the voice of a henchmen your team recently captured, proceed to knock on the door, and swing in with your sword the moment the bandits open and greet you. Ambushing is the most easy-to-understand way to use illusions, but there’s a lot more possibilities and technique waiting ot be discovered by you. Imagination is the key.
Luckily, being a Sorcerer, you have the right to choose 4 Cantrips - the largest number of starting cantrips for any class. You should use these to increase your utility, both in and out of combat, but there are several things to keep in mind.
First, since you’re holding a weapon - and weapons generally do more damage than damage cantrips - you should not take the non-GFB/BB damage cantrips unless you have good reason to do so. 1 at best, and most of the time, 0. You can just throw a javelin or shoot a bow if you want.
As for GFB and BB, most of the time, I advice you take them. If you’re a GWM build without War Caster, you might not need them, though.
Unless you have zero creativity, consider Minor Illusion to be something of a “Cantrip Tax”. It works wonders. Take it.
Most non-GWM Paladin/Sorcs will start with GFB, BB, and Minor Illusion, leaving only one free space (two spaces if Sorcerer level 4 or higher, and three spaces if Sorcerer level 10 or higher, and so on). What to do with the last slot(s) is up to you - if you’re a human you might need Light, but otherwise, perhaps take Lightning Lure for field control, or Create Bonfire for the Pyrotechnics combo, or make friends, or mend things, or send private messages to your teammates. Depends on campaign, character, playstyle, and personal preference.

Blasting
Booming Blade (SCAG): TAKE THIS. It’s mandatory for S&B builds, and even GWM builds may find situations where it’s useful (though this will become Black for GWM builds of level 6 and higher). Twin or use with War Caster’s Opportunity Attack for maximum troll laughs.
Green-Flame Blade (SCAG): This one can’t be Twinned (according to the creators of this game), but works with Elemental Affinity and can damage better than Extra Attack depending on the situation. No reason to not take this for S&B. Becomes Black for GWM builds of level 6 and higher, but even then, not a bad choice or anything, a good thing to have up your sleeve.
Fire Bolt: Its damage is worse than GFB or BB (despite being one of the best cantrips in terms of damage), but it can go ranged, with a pretty damn long distance of 120 feet, so it’s possibly useful when all the enemies are afraid of your awesome melee capabilities and are attempting to slink back. If you’re a Fire Draconic Sorcerer with Elemental Affinity this becomes Blue. Otherwise, not much TBH.
Frostbite (EE): Being a CON save spell means it hardly works on certain enemies, but bestowing disadvantage on the first attack is a petty decent ability, making this a respectable back-up option. Is it worth the cantrip slot? Probably not.
Sword Burst (SCAG): Written not to say it’s good, but rather written to say it’s bad. If you have multiple enemies within melee range, just use Green-Flame Blade. The same can be said for Thunderclap (EE), an inferior version of this spell.

Self Protection
Blade Ward: Not a bad choice as it seems on first glance, since if you’re in a situation where you really want to survive this turn, you can Quicken this to reduce the physical damage you take next turn to half. Sadly, it doesn’t work on elemental (and other non-physical) damage, and while not bad, it’s not an exceptionally good choice either.

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Light: If you have darkvision, don’t bother. If you don’t have darkvision, you need it.
(I listed this spell here because it pretty much “negates a severe de-buff bestowed upon you as a terrain feature”.)

Weaken Enemies
Frostbite (EE): Described in “Blasting”. Not bad, but not top-priority either.

Field Control
Booming Blade (SCAG): You could consider this Field Control in its own weird sort of way. Only affects one target but keeps him in place, unless he wants to take that extra damage.
Lightning Lure (SCAG): When there’s too much distance between an enemy and you, this clicks in and saves you from that problem. OR, you can actually use it to drag a friend and keep him away from an Area of Effect or help him disengage (it’s possible for you to move the target just 5 feet, so that he doesn’t take the Xd8 damage).
Create Bonfire (EE, Concentration): The damage doesn’t matter. What matters is that Quickening this makes Pyrotechnics an AoE version of Blindness. If you’re scheduled to take Pyrotechnics, or if you find yourself in a narrow 5-feet corridor and all the enemies are coming at you from the other side of said corridor, this can be good. Otherwise, eh, don’t take this.

Out-of-Combat
Minor Illusion: Your imagination is the only limit to the countless uses of this spell, be it luring enemies into a trap or a different direction, hiding more effectively, scaring enemies away from something you don’t wanna have them touch, making them believe you’re a nice guy or someone with great authority, ambushing them, capturing them, etc, etc, etc... It’s not the sort of versatility a Cantrip can have. If multiple characters in the group can use this, they can be combined together to create even more “believable” situations.
Friends (Conc): Target gets angry at you after the spell ends. Depending on the DM’s rulings, if you’re disguised as someone else when you cast this, the target might get angry at the guy who you were disguised as. In which case, this is Sky Blue no-questions-asked for Changeling DEX builds, and Blue for those who have Disguise Kit proficiency. I imagine most DMs will rule that using the Disguise Kit looks at CHA, and being both a Paladin and a Sorcerer, you’re quite an attractive fellow.
Mending: CRAZY DIAMOND!!

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DORARARARARARARARARARA!!!
(Image Copyright Hirohiko Araki)

Well, that aside, it’s a situational but occasionally extremely useful ability. It can greatly help you in certain situations, especially in city campaigns.
Message: Depending on the campaign this becomes Blue or possibly even Sky Blue, especially when you want to communicate to your friends without having other people overhear what you wanna tell them.
Shape Water (EE): There’s a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481560-Creative-Cantrips-Shape-Water) dedicated to this cantrip that makes you want to take it. DM dependent for some rulings, but certainly looks fun.
Control Flames (EE): Thematic for certain builds, and can occasionally come in handy when, say, you want to extinguish a fire, or play tricks with stupid or easily believing NPCs. It’s still very situational.
Mage Hand: Situational, and not top-priority.
Prestidigitation: Minor Illusion is obviously better when it comes to deceiving enemies, but at least this spell lets you clean all that goblin blood off your clothes with a single snap of your fingers.
Most level 1 spells are underpowered (and they should be). Especially, Level 1 Blasting spells. They’re generally sub-optimal at best because of their low damage that can be easily surpassed by a well-placed GFB or BB. The AoEs’ areas are small and their rider effects, if any, are not that appetizing either.
But that goes for almost all level 1 spells in general. Since the number of Spells Known you can have are limited, you will probably not have a large number of level 1 spells known at mid-to-high levels. Most of the time you will be using Shield and not much anything else.
However, I will rate the other options anyway, to give ideas on how to use them.

Blasting
Burning Hands: Starts off nice due to its range (large for a level 1 AoE I guess) but quickly gets bad, especially for Sorcadins which have another good damaging option (simply attacking with your sword doesn’t cost you any resources, and if multiple enemies are standing together, GFB can burn two of them at once).
Magic Missile: I honestly am not a big fan of this spell from the start, and it’s even less so with Sorcadin builds. Being guaranteed to hit is a good thing, but the damage is simply abysmal and it’s often better to just attack with your sword. However, if your DM constantly shows the players how much HP the monsters have remaining, this might become better. Another way to utilize this is to use against enemy Casters to make them automatically make three Concentration-maintaining saving throws, most likely ending in a failure. In which case this works sorta like Dispel magic.
It’s not a really amazing spell, especially for you, but it still does have its uses.
Thunderwave: The damage is meh, but it allows you to blast a good number of enemies away. This is something normal attacks cannot do, and having a spell-exclusive rider is a good thing. However, Warlocks can do similar stuff with Repelling Blast, so you might as well leave this job to them and just use your level 1 slots for Shield.
Ice Knife (EE): Look, the general rule here that I’m trying to explain here is that you should try to keep away from damaging spells that don’t have insanely large areas of effect. They generally aren’t worth belonging in Spells Known.
Chromatic Orb: Just attack with your friggin’ sword you coward, why are you even holding it in your hand in the first place. These sorts of spells that can “have their effects be achieved by non-magical means” should be kept away from, especially for a master swordsman like you. You’re delving into magic to find new possibilities, and getting to deal damage to a singular target is not a new possibility.
The same can be said for Catapult. I just supposed I should note these here because these sorts of spells are often rated good for Sorcerers in their guides. These spells may be good for Sorcerers, but not for you.

Self Protection
Shield: Become invincible for a round at the laughably low cost of a reaction and one level 1 spell slot. There is no excuse to not taking this spell.
Mage Armor: Most characters don’t need it (including DEX builds, since most have Draconic Resilience). If you’re a non-Draconic Bloodline DEX build, sure, take it.
False Life: Just pointing out you have no reason to take this, since you have Cure Wounds as a spell of the same level.

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Expeditious Retreat (Concentration): Only affects yourself. Also listed in “Field Control”. According to Zene, works real good with positioning Wild Magic Surges.

Weaken Enemies
Sleep: As often said, it’s devastating at low levels, making enemies unconscious without a save, but it quickly starts to suck from around level 5 and higher. This is because the inflation of the enemy monsters’ general HP is extremely high-paced, especially at low levels, and the HP limitation of Sleep quickly becomes too small for the monsters to fit into.
The same can be said for Color Spray.

Field Control
Expeditious Retreat (Concentration): Many spells have a range, and your melee attacks have a limited range as well. This is handy for when you want to move around at double speed as a bonus action. Orcs can do similar stuff.
Gets better for Wild Magic Sorcerers, since the effectiveness of certain Surges depend on where you’re positioned. Since a contributor to this guide (Zene) who actually used this combination rated it Gold, it might be even better than it seems on paper. I’m not sure if the concentration and Spell Known makes it so effective even at higher levels (Zene played a low-level Sorcadin), but regardless, if you’re a Wild Magic Sorc, it seems you should consider taking this. I cannot say for sure since I have not used it, but nothing beats the comments from those who’ve actually tested the idea.
Fog Cloud (Concentration): Everyone in a certain area gets Blinded (wind may move around the cloud). It’s similar to Darkness, except you can’t see through it with Devil’s Sight or Eyes of the Dark.
The really weird thing about being Blinded is that when two creatures within darkness or heavy fog are both Blinded, both gain advantage on attack against each other, but at the same time both bestow advantage on attacks against themselves, meaning that both sides will make attack rolls as normal (by RAW, due to advantage/disadvantage not stacking, it does nullify any other advantages and disadvantages, though). Thus this isn’t as much of a “defensive option” as one may hope.
Then what is it good for?
There are two main things here. The first is that opportunity attacks can only be done against targets you can see, meaning that within the area of Fog Cloud, no one can make opportunity attacks (unless they have Blindsight or something). Within the area of Fog Cloud, you, and everyone (including your enemies) can freely move around without caring about opportunity attacks, making the combat situation a lot different than it normally is.
Combining this with Booming Blade is a pretty damn nice combo. Jump into the fog, hit an enemy, and retreat without provoking OAs. If the enemy wants to move and chase you, he must take the extra damage.
The second thing is that 99% of target spells cannot target people the Caster cannot see, meaning that using Fog Cloud on an enemy Caster basically renders him useless. HOWEVER, if cast using a level 1 slot, the Caster is free to escape the area of Fog Cloud on his next turn, and no one can stop him from doing that (because he doesn’t provoke OAs either). Upcasting can make the radius 40 feet (at level 2), or perhaps larger, in which case the Caster cannot move out of the obscured range, and for a turn, cannot use some of his spells (he can still use attack roll spells and AoE spells. However, some DMs, including I, will rule that he will be confused and that if he wishes to use an AoE spell, he will hurl it in a random direction).
Or, simply use it when your parts wants to hide.
Fog Cloud is the only Field Control spell of the “field-affecting type” (Wall of Fire, Evard’s Black Tentacles etc.) you get at this level, and it’s not a bad option to use. However, once you go to higher levels, chances are you will want to swap this out due to the limited number of Spells Known (even if you originally chose it).
Be aware that this ability completely kills the party Rogue since it makes using Sneak Attack impossible.
Thunderwave: Detailed in “Blasting”. Not bad, and can move people around, but not that amazing.

Out-of-Combat
Charm Person: For all your role-playing needs. It’s pretty much limited to outside combat, but you get to be able to make an enemy a friend with just a single WIS save. Wonderful in infiltration and various other situations.
Disguise Self: I think getting proficiency in the Disguise Kit is a generally better option (by RAW Disguise Self has a lot of limits on what you can become, and most importantly it’ll be difficult to impersonate other people). Either way, combine with Friends for maximum effect.
Silent Image (Concentration): Minor Illusion’s older brother, which is a good thing. It uses a slot, which is a bad thing. If you want to be that good at illusions, just take Warlock 2 or 3 for the Misty Visions invocation. This isn’t what you use Sorcerer Spells Known for.
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. Now we’re talking. Level 2 introduces a lot of spells that slowly start to draw out the outline of the Sorcadin build - from the defensive spells like Mirror Image, to the major debuffs like Hold Person, and the field controllers like Web. Suggestion and Phantasmal Force are dazzling both in and out of combat, and are sure to affect your party’s approach to the problems they face.
The damaging spells are yet to be worth taking, though. We will need to bide our time till level 3 for that.

Blasting
Shatter: Best AoE damage spell for this level. Not that that’s really something to boast about, given how the others really, really suck. Another level and you get Fireball, from which is where the Blasting spells finally get a rating of over Blue... Actually, Fireball suddenly gets it to Sky Blue, but that’s that.
Looking at the stuff unique to this spell, Shatter one can destroy nonmagical objects within the area as well. Whether that’s a good thing or bad thing depends on the situation, but you might be able to be creative with it.
Scorching Ray: As always, simple damage can be replaced by the SCAG cantrips for you. Depending on how your DM rules Elemental Affinity, it might become “add CHA mod” or “add CHA mod x3”. Creators seem to have intended the former, which sucks hard, but even with the latter, not an ideal option for Sorcadins.
The reason why I’m posting these here is because I really want to emphasize that being a Sorcadin, you should not take these. Many spells that are good for pure Casters become terribad for gish builds.

Self Protection
Mirror Image: The fact this doesn’t require concentration is either a misprint or a result of a troll lurking in the writers of WotC. It’s really damn useful, and you should put it to your advantage.
Misty Step: I listed it in here because it can get you out of dire situations and help you slink back into the backrow when you desperately need it, but it also can be used for various other purposes. The fact it’s a Bonus Action is what really makes it shine.
Blur (Concentration): Pretty good defensive spell for this level. If it didn’t require concentration it would’ve been insanely powerful. But there’s absolutely no way there’s a level 2 spell that buffs your defenses by a ton and doesn’t require concentration, right? I mean, if such thing existed it would be really powerful, so you should take it, but...owait.
(Starts to becomes redundant after you hit Sorcerer 7 and gain Greater Invisibility.)

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Misty Step: Technically not a buff, but it increases your combat versatility by using for purposes such as “disengage” and “dash”. Think of it sorta like Cunning Action. For both offensive and defensive purposes, this spell is solid and good.
Invisibility (Concentration): Best used on an Assassin (if your party includes one, this becomes Sky Blue). It can also be useful in RP situations, but in combat, it’s a bit of a pain how the effect ends so easily. You better use it on someone who isn’t wearing heavy armor, meaning that unless you’re a DEX build you should cast it on someone else.
Levitate (Concentration): Poor man’s Fly. Does allow someone to engage in melee with flying monsters to lock them down with OAs, but generally, the thing to say is “just friggin’ use Fly”.
Enlarge/Reduce (Concentration): Basically allows anyone to be good with grappling and also inflicts a bit of extra damage. It’s probably not the best way to use your precious Concentration, though.

Weaken Enemies
Hold Person (Concentration): Quickening and proceeding to Crit-Smite the hell out of the poor humanoid is almost sure to kill the guy on the spot. Even if he doesn’t die there, chances are he will die within the round. A truly devastating spell, and while it doesn’t work on all enemies, you should still have it due to its hilarious synergy with Divine Smite.
Suggestion (Concentration): With a bit of creativity, you can subdue not one, but multiple enemies with this spell, or perhaps even end the encounter with the enemies fleeing and running for their lives. Since this spell heavily relies on DM discretion, you should ask your DM beforehand about his definition of a “suggestion that sounds reasonable”, and make sure everyone in the party is okay with what you do before using it.
This spell is also listed in “Out-of-Combat”, since it’s extremely versatile.
Phantasmal Force (Concentration): Taking one monster out of the fight (be it freeze on the spot or run away for dear life) is easy with this spell, but with the right situation and the right imagination you can make the enemy pretty much kill himself, or even make him go on your side, acting like Dominate Monster. An excellent spell, and even if the enemy is dubious, he must use an action (or several actions if he’s unlucky or stupid) to realize the illusion is a fake.
Pyrotechnics (EE): Use together with Create Bonfire (perhaps Quickened) for maximum versatility. Used as a Debuff spell, it’s like Blindness/Deafness, except it is an AoE (which is a seriously good thing). Do keep in mind that Pyrotechnics can blind the targets for only 1 turn, opposed to how Blindness/Deafness persists till the guy succeeds on his save.
This spell can also be used as a Field Control spell that resembles Fog Cloud, except without requiring concentration. It’s also extremely thematic for Fire Draconic Sorcerers.
Levitate (Concentration): This is rated Purple for when helping friends and for using outside combat, but when used on enemies, it’s possible to make this like a really poor man’s Banishment, albeit restricted to monsters with only melee attacks, by sending him floating into the air where he can harm nobody. Not that it will come up very often, especially with it requiring concentration, but being able to pepper him with arrows while he’s raging and screaming, suspended mid-air, might be a nice thing to have. The problem is that you probably don’t have the Spells Known capacity.
Maximillian's Earthen Grasp (EE, Concentration): STR saves may be resisted by large foes, but being Restrained is a pretty nasty condition. The fact it requires concentration makes it a mediocre choice at best, optimization-wise, but it’s not like it’s bad, so if you think it’s thematic I guess you can take it.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/145/804/3c1.gif
^ Example of someone with this spell being thematic. MY BRAIN TREMBLES!! ^
(Image Copyright Tappei Nagatsuki)

Blindness/Deafness: It’s a debuff that doesn’t require concentration (that’s a rare thing), but it’s a CON save (commonly resisted, especially by the powerful, burly bosses that you really wanna Blind), the target re-rolls it every turn, and while the Blinded condition is indeed crippling, there are worse. You can Twin it if you want, but if you want to affect multiple enemies at a time, Pyrotechnics is another option.
It is really thematic for an Evil or Chaotic Neutral character though.

Field Control
Darkness (Concentration): If you’re a Shadow Sorcerer, this becomes Gold - though it’s only when you cast it using Eyes of the Dark, and casting it with a level 2 slot is unthinkable. Together with Eyes of the Dark, you can completely lock down an enemy Caster.
For other people, Darkness is generally a variation of Fog Cloud. This one has a smaller area, but it can be moved around the battlefield (although depending on the target from which the darkness originates, enemies can move it around as well).
Web (Concentration): Crowd control is a good thing, and it becomes astonishing when combined with Careful Spell. If you don’t have Careful Spell, this becomes a bit less attractive, but if you do, you must take it.
Pyrotechnics (EE): Use together with Create Bonfire (perhaps Quickened) for maximum versatility. Used as a Field Control spell, it’s like Fog Cloud, except it doesn’t require concentration (which is a seriously good thing).
This spell can also be used as an AoE debuff spell that makes Blindness/Deafness cry his eyes out and go blind. It’s also extremely thematic for Fire Draconic Sorcerers.
Cloud of Daggers (Concentration): Requires concentration and is far too easy to avoid. It should be noted, however, that its damage requires no save, meaning it’s sorta like Magic Missile in how it inflicts damage no matter what. The image created by this spell is rather nice.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/cfa9f535ffb0a238926f0ef1ba5c395b/tumblr_mfpbsxhzc41ra3f3yo1_r1_500.gif
^ If you’re a vampire with Time Stop, this spell becomes Gold. ^
(Image Copyright Hirohiko Araki)

Out-of-Combat
Suggestion (Concentration): Also listed in “Weaken Enemies”. Used right, this can alter the course of an entire campaign. Be it gaining loads of wealth or accelerating the downfall of the evil aristocrat, this spell has the power to do it on its own. Since this spell heavily relies on DM discretion, you should ask your DM beforehand about his definition of a “suggestion that sounds reasonable”, and make sure everyone in the party is okay with what you do before using it.
Phantasmal Force (Concentration): Use in RP moments with the right set-up and imagination, and you almost automatically get an NPC on your side, or alternatively, force him into getting a mental breakdown. Use Heightened Spell to make sure the enemy doesn’t realize he’s being tricked.
Invisibility (Concentration): Also listed in “Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)”. You better use it on someone who isn’t wearing heavy armor, meaning that unless you’re a DEX build you should cast it on someone else.
Alter Self (Concentration): Allowing yourself to breath underwater is really pointless when the rest of your party can’t, and the Natural Weapons aren’t that attractive either. The way this effect is written I think you can impersonate as other people as well, but I’d just use the Disguise Kit if I wanted to make such a character.
Enhance Ability (Concentration): Advantage on checks. Generally better to just be a Bard and inspire your friends.
Knock: Can become Blue depending on the campaign, but regardless of whether the campaign needs it or not, the Wizard does it better. Just politely ask him to prepare it, wait till next morning, and it’s job done.
Levitate (Concentration): Wanna retrieve that item hanging 50 feet above you? Yeah, well, ask the Wizard. You don’t get that many Spells Known.

This is the level where warriors get Extra Attack and their DPR becomes doubled. Meanwhile, Casters get access to the grand collection of these uber-powerful spells that already start making you look godly.
This is the level at which the classic Fireball finally, comes storming into the battlefield, roasting an entire horde of goblins and calling it a day. This is the level at which you start to fly through the air, hypnotize an entire encounter, get to say “NO” to the enemy caster and waste his turn, and get to do a bunch of other awesome stuff.
There are not as many broad options as the level 2 spells, though. The real goodies come online at level 4.

Blasting
Fireball: THIS is from where the damaging spells actually get into the level that it’s impossible to mimic with just normal attacks and cantrips (which means you now have better versatility). The damage itself is just “good” for a character of this level, but Fireball’s insanely large area of effect means it can incinerate an entire horde on its own (low-CR monsters like Goblins and Kobolds may die even if they succeed on the save). There’s almost no excuse to not taking this spell, more so if you have Elemental Affinity.
HOWEVER, you may also note that having just 1 AoE is not enough in certain cases. Fireball specifically states in the text that any flammable objects within range start to burn, and this means that, say, if you’re fighting in a forest or in a town with a lot of wooden buildings, depending on the judgments of the DM (the pace at which the fire spreads etc.), this spell can potentially kill yourself as well. This does not necessarily mean you need over 2 damaging AoEs - rather, you should take at least 1 “non-damaging but crippling AoE with a large area”, like Hypnotic Pattern, and make sure that even if you face a horde in a place where hurling a Fireball may damage the environment too much, you have means of counter-measure.
Lightning Bolt: It’s a bit difficult to get over 3 monsters into the area, unlike Fireball (in which case it’s actually harder to not get over 3 monsters into the area). The damage is the same, and contrary to popular belief, Lightning damage is just as commonly resisted as Fire damage (though more enemies are immune to Fire). Overall, not worth taking.
Melf's Minute Meteors (EE, Concentration): Does same damage as Fireball over the course of two turns, becomes better with three. However, the area is depressingly small (“any creatures within 5 feet of the point”), and it allows the low-HP enemies to take more turns before they’re burned to death. It’s not bad, but generally not good enough to belong in your readied list either.
Erupting Earth (EE): While magical bludgeoning damage is never resisted, the average damage of this spell is 18.5, whereas Fireball is 28 (14 even if resisted), meaning that the merit gained when used on a monster with fire resistance is only 4.5 - not something that makes this worth taking, especially when its area is considerably smaller than Fireball. The only situation in which you should take this is when all your opponents are immune to fire, but even then, Lightning Bolt exists if you want.
The part about turning the area into difficult terrain is... Not bad, I guess, and it might be useful in certain situations, but most of the time, not worth throwing this into Spells Known.

Self Protection
Protection from Energy: This is not your job. At least you can Twin it, but really, this is not your job.

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Fly (Concentration): Not only do you get to move at double the speed, you can also fly over traps, cripple earthbound enemies by raining death from above, get into melee range of flying enemies, and even upcast it to affect multiple friends as well. Always beware of losing concentration and falling to your death.
Haste (Concentration): Twin for maximum effect. Be careful when using it, however, since once you’ve chosen to cast it, you cannot cast other Concentration spells for the remainder of the fight.
This blue rating assumes you already have War Caster or Resilient (CON) as well as Aura of Protection by the time you’ve took it, and if you do not, this becomes a trap option.
Flame Arrows (EE, Concentration): On first glance it’s like giving your friend archer Hex. Then you realize it becomes double the Hex when you combine it with Elemental Affinity for an additional 1d6 + CHA mod damage per hit. If your DM permits it and there’s two archers in your party, it becomes quadruple the Hex when you combine it with Twinned Spell (by RAW, Twinned Spell only works on spells that target “creatures”, not “objects”). It’s normally not worth taking, but if there’s at least two archers in your party, you’re a Fire Draconic Sorcerer, and you have Twinned Spell, it’s good. The problem is that you might as well leave someone else in the party to do that job for you, since your concentration is precious indeed.

Weaken Enemies
Hypnotic Pattern (Concentration): Massive range, save-or-suck. If the still-awake enemies waste their turns shaking their friends awake, just smash their heads while they waste their precious actions. It’s a nice option for when your enemies are pretty tough, or when you don’t want to burn everything around you. If you took the Careful Spell Metamagic option, this spell becomes mandatory.
Counterspell: If multiple characters in your party already have this, you might want to skip this and go for more versatility instead, leaving that job to your friends (unless your DM has a habit of throwing in lots of Casters). Remember that you have a lot of good uses for your reaction, like opportunity Booming Blade or Shield.
However, this spell can cripple encounters on its own, and every party should have at least 1 or 2 characters who can use it.
Fear (Concentration): This spell is quite interesting and powerful. Any creature who fails his WIS save drops whatever weapon he is holding and then proceeds to run away as fast as possible using his action. And he cannot repeat the save until he can’t see you anymore. This means that:
Monsters who rely on weapons to attack are completely disarmed and rendered powerless (someone in your party can pick up the discarded weapon and put it into his bag or something)
The affected monsters waste their actions doing nothing harmful for your team
The affected monsters provoke opportunity attacks from you and your friends
If the fight is in a place without any ways to hide from you, the target cannot do anything until he hits a wall, and even after he does, he had disadvantage on all his attacks (and in many cases, he can only make futile fist attacks)The only downside is that its range is a cone, and that it doesn’t work on Constructs and some other big monsters.
Combine with War Caster + Booming Blade for massive guaranteed damage. If you really want to kill somebody for running away, also use your bonus action that turn for Quickened Spell + Booming Blade, and inflict him twice the damage (this should be done after Fear goes off successfully, since otherwise you might sorta waste the Booming Blade if the enemy succeeds on the WIS save).
However, be aware that this spell may be anti-synergetic with the fact you’re mostly gonna fight in melee. If your enemies dash away, you cannot catch up to them unless you want to spend your actions Dashing as well. This goes for your friends too. Barbarians, for instance, may get angry at you for using this spell because he has no enemies he can attack near him, and his Rage ended earlier than originally assumed.
Dispel Magic: It’s costly, requiring an action and a level 3 slot, but solid and good when you need it. DMs like I often introduce battlefields where the enemies have already set up magical traps (the ground in front of the enemy frontline is the area of Evard’s Black Tentacles etc.), so if your DM is one of those people, this becomes Sky Blue.
Stinking Cloud (Concentration): The Blue Rating assumes you took the Careful Spell Metamagic option. If you didn’t, then this is Purple.
Bestowing disadvantage on your opponent’s attacks is one thing. Getting to waste the actions of your opponents is another. It’s truly hilarious when paired with Careful Spell, the only downside being that CON saves are often resisted by bulky foes.

Field Control
Stinking Cloud (Concentration): Detailed in “Weaken Enemies”.
Sleet Storm: Huge area, lots of debuffs. Can be Careful Spelled, but ehhh.... I’d just go for Web or Stinking Cloud.

Out-of-Combat
Daylight: One of those spells that are mostly useless, but extremely useful in the right situation (such as when you’re fighting a vampire). Interestingly, Wizards do not have access to this spell,but Druids do, so just leave it to them if you need it.
Major Image (Concentration): You can learn only a limited number of spells. If you want to be an illusionist just go Wizard or Warlock. Or use Phantasmal Force.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:04 AM

Choosing Your Spells Part 2: Sorcerer (Mid Levels)

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5c89b06ede19d8e4389d0343aef764990559c0af13fcf907a4 171837a0e4a36a.gif
An oath shall be sworn here.
I shall attain all virtues of all of Heaven;
I shall have dominion over all evils of all of Hell.
From the Seventh Heaven, attended to by three great words of power,
Come forth from the ring of restraint,
Protector of the holy balance!
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

Level 4 is where you get various powerful control, buff, and debuff spells like Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility, Banishment, and Polymorph. Most of the powerful level 4 spells require concentration, and at the same time, are most definitely worth it.
This is also the level where Twinned Spell starts to get super gravy, with Greater Invisibility and Polymorph, uber-powerful spells that cannot benefit from upcasting like Banishment can.

Blasting
Wall of Fire (Concentration): Crowd control and good damage that also gets bonuses from Elemental Affinity. Cutting the enemy team in half, combining with your party Warlock’s Repelling Blast, there’s lots of stuff you can do with this spell. Fire damage is of course often resisted, so be careful not to use this against a group of Devils or anything.
Vitriolic Sphere (EE): It’s like a less-resisted Fireball with a bit more damage, except it divides the damage into two turns and does less than half damage on a successful save. Which is better is up to you and the campaign, but most of the time I say Fireball.
Blight: If you happen to often fight Plants, this is Sky Blue. Thing is, at least I haven’t fought plants with that much frequence. Damaging with spells is the least of your priorities, unless it’s an AoE. This has good damage, but it’s not what you seek for in level 4 spells.
Ice Storm: Worse damage than Fireball. Ew. Pass.
Storm Sphere (EE, Concentration): A really interesting spell. A shame it’s an unoptimized option, especially for a Bladelock like you who’s going to use your action for a plethora of good techniques.

Self Protection
Greater Invisibility (Concentration): This will be explained more in “Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)”.
Stoneskin (Concentration): On first glance it’s good for frontline builds. Then again, This is the same level spell as Greater Invisibility, so why in the world would you ever want to use this?

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Greater Invisibility (Concentration): Get ready for the lolz. This is a mandatory choice for all GWM builds, and arguably so even for S&B builds. All the merits of the Darkness + Devil’s Sight combo, except it doesn’t hinder your friends. How awesomesause is that?
Use together with Twinned Spell to make it double the awesomesause.
Polymorph (Concentration): You know Bob the Fighter always wanted to roleplay a T-Rex. Let him turn into a T-Rex. Enjoy.

https://m.popkey.co/480129/3Zwzq_s-200x150.gif
^ Bob the Fighter, currently roleplaying as a T-Rex. ^
(Copyright Steven Spielberg, Universal Studios)

Wait, what? Sam the Fighter also wants to roleplay into a T-Rex? Fine, then. Use Twinned Spell.

https://m.popkey.co/480129/3Zwzq_s-200x150.gifhttps://m.popkey.co/480129/3Zwzq_s-200x150.gif
^ Thanks to you, now both Bob and Sam can roleplay a T-Rex at once. ^
(Copyright Steven Spielberg, Universal Studios)

Giving 136 temporary HP to the frontline warrior and making his average DPR 53 is a bad joke. Giving 136 temporary HP to two frontline warriors and making both or their average DPR 53 is the worst joke ever. Somehow you have access to this joke, so I advice you use it. Since it’s already a bad joke from the start, overusing it wouldn’t really make it worse.
16 CON + War Caster/Resilient + Aura of Protection pretty much guarantees you can keep concentration on this spell for as long as you want.
Stoneskin (Concentration): Look, just become invisible instead, because that way, you don’t even get hit in the first place.

Weaken Enemies
Banishment (Concentration): So, you see, encounter difficulties are calculated based on the number of enemies on the map. This spell changes the number of enemies on the map. What does that mean? It means this spell is awesome.
Some enemies are erased off the material plane with this spell, regardless of its CR (be careful of losing concentration in that case, though). Others disappear from the map for a minute, and when they return, they first see their comrades’ dead bodies sprawled across the floor, and then they look around and see the entire adventuring party encircling them, all readied for the grand ambush with the ever-so-useful Ready action. Either way it spells death for any opponent, and Charisma saves are uncommon.
Do note that this spell can be upcast to affect more than 2 targets, without even using Twinned Spell. If anything, you can Heighten this for maximum effect.
Polymorph (Concentration): Turn a raging monster into a harmless frog, throw him into a bin, and proceed to let it go flow down a river. Or simply use it in a way similar to Banishment, and kill him at once after the rest of his friends have been cleaned up.
Of course, this spell can also be used as an amazing buff.
Confusion (Concentration): Not that this is bad, but that Hypnotic Pattern is better.
Dominate Beast (Concentration): How often do you run into Beasts? And even if you did, this spell allows the target to re-make a save every time he takes damage, making him hardly a trustable ally. Mind-controlling is a good ability, but this one is too limited in its uses.

Field Control
Wall of Fire (Concentration): Set up the map so that your enemies are cut off from each other, or encircle the big bad so he can’t get out. Either way it works amazing.
Watery Sphere(EE, Concentration): As with many EE spells, full of creativity and potential. Not exactly optimized, but fun.

Out-of-Combat
Dimension Door: Only a range of 500 feet, and you can’t take your entire party with you. If you had 30 spells known you might’ve wanted to take it, but you only have 15 at best.

Level 5 introduces a lot of debuffs and control spells, but the main two things to look for in this level are Animate Objects and Hold Monster. Hold Monster is a wonderful upgrade of Hold Person, complete with abusability via Divine Smite Crit (if abusability is even a word), while Animate Objects opens up the door for a completely new option that can damage, defend, and control, all in the same golden package: minionmancy.
Interestingly enough, there is not a single level 5 Sorcerer spell that directly boosts your defenses or buffs your friends. Not that that’s ever a problem, though, since Greater Invisibility is pretty much the best Sorcerer spell ever in that regard, and you already have it.

Blasting
Cone of Cold: The damage is 36 average, which is no different from a Fireball of the same level (average 35, better with Elemental Affinity), but this spell has a much wider area of effect. Contrary to popular belief, cold damage is more commonly resisted than fire damage, but on the other hand, less creatures are immune to it.
The real thing here is the insanely large area, so if you often fight bunches and bunches of monsters (too much to fit even in a Fireball), this can be a good choice.
Cloudkill (Concentration): Concentration requirement, CON saves and Poison damage make this a somewhat bad choice for this level. The fact it forces damage every turn is interesting, though. Use together with a necromancer in your party for the lolz (zombies don’t take poison damage).
Immolation (EE, Concentration): The damage is low and it takes several turns to be effective enough. It even requires concentration. The idea is interesting but the numbers are sadly not.

Self Protection
N/A

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
N/A

Weaken Enemies
Hold Monster (Concentration): This spell was already good for Sorcerers. It’s an absolute boner for you. Combine with Divine Smite for the trollolololz.
Being a multiclass Caster, you have high-level spell slots for which you don’t have actual spells to match (for instance, 6/14 nets you level 8 and 9 slots, while your highest level spell is level 7). Of course these can be converted into Sorcery Points, but another way of using them is to upcast your spells.
Like Hold Person, Hold Monster can be upcast. And when it’s upcast, it allows you to select extra targets. All in all, I’d say this is near mandatory for you.
Dominate Person (Concentration): This rating assumes you have some trick up your sleeve that makes the Humanoid believe you’re not hostile when you first cast him this spell (disguising as a friend etc. ) If you do not have such a trick, this becomes Red as a combat spell.
Used for combat (combined with some sort of way to assure the Humanoid you’re not hostile), this spell can possibly get a powerful NPC with class levels on your side. If the enemies focus fire on him, chances are he’d eventually break free of the charm, but you force your enemies to waste their actions attacking a friend. Either way it’s beneficial for you.
However, not all DMs introduce a lot of powerful humanoids, so as with all “Something Person” spells, this spell is campaign-dependent.
Telekinesis (Concentration): Moving around and restraining creatures is interesting. However, Hold Monster exists as a spell of the same level. It’s not that this spell is bad, it’s just that there’s a similar option, and you don’t have that many Spells Known.

Field Control
Animate Objects (Concentration): If your DM uses flanking rules, this spell becomes pure gold. However, chances are, the moment you start using this spell, your DM will stop using flanking rules.
Minionmancy is a broken concept in itself, because it goes against the main game premise of controlling just “one character”. Be it Animate Dead, or Conjure Animals, or Conjure Woodland Beings, or this particular spell, you should always first ask your DM beforehand if you’re okay to use it. This is not a matter of whether it’s RAW or not, but rather part of table-talk manners. Minionmancy tends to result in one player rolling the dice a dozen times per round, which can get tedious and slow down the game. And since they’re overall broken in the first place, it’s perfectly reasonable for the DM to perhaps set a limit on the number of monsters you can summon, or create special rules for minionmancy (you cannot animate more than 5 objects with this spell etc.).
Mechanic-wise, Tiny is the only choice for the objects you animate, but for the aforementioned reasons, you should consult your DM before drawing out ten trinkets from your pockets and animating them at once. The image of having ten knives float around you and stab into enemies with your commands is badass, though. Other ideas include quills, skulls, and spinning tops.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/beyblade/images/6/6e/Temp-320-98028588.gif/revision/latest?cb=20110607183439
^ The right way to animate spinning tops.^
(Copyright Takara Tomy)

If you want, you can upcast this spell. Two extra objects per additional spell slot level is not a really “gigantic” deal, but it’s still good.
Cloudkill (Concentration): Detailed in “Blasting”. As a control spell, this spell may be a bit meh in how it slowly moves around against your will.
Wall of Stone (Concentration): The control effect is the strongest you can get (it doesn’t harm people for moving, it instead just robs the whole option of moving in the first place), but it requires concentration, and most of the time you’d probably use Wall of Fire instead. This spell’s true potential lies in out-of-combat situations.
Insect Plague (Concentration): Magical piercing cannot be resisted except by very special foes, but the damage itself is meh. It does serve its job as a battlefield control spell, but if you want something along these lines, other options exist from level 3 and 4, like Stinking Cloud or Wall of Fire.
Control Winds (EE, Concentration): This spell is like a representation of the EE spell list. They’re really fun and creative, but also really, really underpowered. This should have been a level 3, or even a level 2 spell or something.

Out-of-Combat
Wall of Stone (Concentration): What was rated Black in “Field Control” becomes Blue in Out-of-Combat situations - perhaps even Sky Blue depending on the campaign (War Campaigns and City Campaigns come to mind). This spell allows you to create bridges or huts, or if you have several days of downtime activity, even fortresses. If used right, it’s a campaign-changing spell, and the possibilities are endless.
However, it should be noted that Druids and Wizards - both of them able to change their spell lists every day - also have access to this spell, meaning that if there’s already such a character in your party, you wouldn’t need to take it.
Dominate Person (Concentration): It’s like Charm Person, except you don’t become the guy’s friend, you become the guy’s master. This spell has hilarious potential in any campaign, but becomes especially godly in city campaigns. However, it competes with other spells for your Spells Known list, and you might as well have other guys in the party do it for you. Also, be aware that the duration is only one minute, which means its uses are not as broad as one may expect (unless you upcast it). In some cases, the level 1 Charm Person - having a duration of 1 hour and not requiring concentration - might be actually the better option.
Teleportation Circle: It’s basically the Fly move from Pokemon. Anyone who has played Pokemon knows how useful the Fly move is.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/445353/pokemon-game-using-fly-o.gif
Teleportation Circle!
(Image Copyright Nintendo)

However, do you want to have your most powerful Pokemon learn Fly and use it in battle? Probably not. That’s what it’s like to make a Sorcerer learn Teleportation Circle. Leave the Hidden Machines to the Wizards. They deserve to be the HM slaves!
Creation: Yeah, if you want to use a level 5 slot to create a rope or something. I honestly think they should have made it possible to make the created object permanent (albeit at a cost) - this is a 5th level spell - but it seems the creators didn’t allow that.
Seeming: The effect is basically “Mass Disguise Self”, except they didn’t name it that way because it’s impossible to disguise over two “selves” No concentration is a good thing, and you can perhaps infiltrate the enemy ranks with this spell alone, but these sorts of situational spells are meant more for Wizards, not for Sorcerers.
Whereas all the good Level 4 and 5 spells required concentration - ta-da! The level 6 goodies generally do not.
Here we get good Blasting options for the second time in our career, namely Chain Lightning and Disintegrate. The former is a wonderful finishing move that scales hilariously effectively (synergetic with Sorcadins, given how we always have high-level leftover spell slots), while the latter is of an almost never resisted damage type and can wipe off an enemy (or two enemies, with Twinned Spell) clean off the battlefield.
This level is also where we get access to Mass Suggestion, one of the most broken spells in the entire game. And here, look. It doesn’t even require concentration. You’d think it was a typo, but looking at the “At Higher Levels” column, it seems it’s on purpose. Feel free to abuse it as much as you like.
The Investiture spells are thematically fun, but as options, are honestly not that optimized.

Blasting
Chain Lightning: Deal average 45 (or half of that) damage to up to 4 targets that are standing near each other. Which is a pretty good deal.
Based on the rulings for GFB, I suppose most DMs will not allow you to Twin this. If he says it’s okay... well, have fun.
One thing to note is that this spell scales like no other - while most damage spells increase only 1d8 or something per level, when upcast, Chain Lightning increases the number of the extra leaping bolts, meaning +10d8 damage per extra spell slot level (albeit if there are that many targets within range). Together with the fact that Sorcadins will always have a really high-level slot that they can’t use except for converting into Sorcery Points or Upcasting, this spell has special meaning for you.
Disintegrate: Deals average 75 damage of an almost-never resisted damage type, if the enemy fails his saving throw. Sadly, it has no effect if the enemy succeeds on his save, meaning you should think twice before using this spell on a guy with a high DEX score or the Magical Resistance ability. Works better with Heightened and Twinned spell.
Sunbeam (Concentration): Blinding and inflicting 27 (or half that) damage average every turn is nice, especially with its damage type being something that’s virtually never resisted, but it uses up concentration. I confess I haven’t testplayed this spell before so I don’t know how good it will be, but I think you’d probably use your concentration for something else.
If you have played this spell before in a Sorcadin build, please tell me your experiences.
(If your campaign is about fighting vampires or drow, this becomes Sky Blue.)
Circle of Death: Anger. My heart is filled with anger. And that anger comes from how WotC created a spell with a really badass sounding name and gave it an absolutely abysmal effect. The same damage as Fireball, with a CON save, and it’s supposed to be a level 6 spell. At least it’s a less resisted damage type and the radius is huge, but even so, I mean... this is terrible. It should have had a rider effect like, say, Ray of Enfeeblement.

Self Protection
Globe of Invulnerability (Concentration): Look at “Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself).”
Investiture of Wind (EE, Concentration): This spell probably has the most self-contained synergy of the four Elemental Investiture spells. It’s like the Fly spell, except you bestow disadvantage on ranged weapon attacks - which happen to make up for the majority of the attacks that can actually hit you. That’s a pretty good set of abilities, isn’t it? Whoever created this spell was obviously good at designing high-level spells, and I think this is actually a decent pick for Casters (though it does eat at Concentration).
However, you are a frontline warrior, meaning you need to engage in melee range of opponents to be truly effective. This spell has self-contained synergy, but sadly, that synergy does not extend to the basic idea of the Sorcadin itself.
Investiture of Stone (EE, Concentration): It’s like a Stoneskin with a bit more benefits, except it’s also a level 6 spell that requires concentration. Ew. The extra benefits are too situational as well.

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Globe of Invulnerability (Concentration): You become sorta like a Rakshasa (though as not as good). And it extends that benefit to anyone within a 10 feet radius.
This is a tricky one. If there’s a friend within 10 feet, this means he also gains the benefits. But unlike Aura of Protection, this affects your enemies as well. What if the enemy boss comes over to sit right next to you? Perhaps the Wizard in the backrow might start calling you names. Do keep in mind that if required, you can always drop concentration at any desired timing - though you will waste that level 6 spell slot of the day.
Of course, however, if the frontline warriors become invincible from a majority of the attacks of the evil mastermind mage, that’s fun. This spell is campaign-dependent, but if used right in the right situation, it can save everybody around you.
Becomes a bit less attractive for those who went Oath of the Ancients 7, since they already have overlapping benefits. Also, do keep in mind that this spell is a bit anti-synergy with the Paladin levels in itself, because you can already protect your friends with Aura of Protection, and this spell has the downside of helping your enemies as well.
If it’s just you that you want to protect yourself from spells, better to simply use Greater Invisibility. You can’t target people you can’t see with your spells, and the enemy Caster has to guess where you are when hurling AoEs. This spell is most meaningful if you can get your friends into the area as well.
You might want to consider slinking back into the backrow and defending your party Caster as you use this.
Investiture of Flame (EE, Concentration): Self only. The fire immunity, cold resistance and Heat Aura are all nice benefits. Having an unlimited supply of magical fire attacks is not bad for a Sorcerer, but meh for Sorcadins which already have other good methods of dealing damage. All in all, the packaging itself is not bad, but if asked whether it’s worth your concentration, I’d say no. Self-Buff sorta hits the capstone with Greater Invisibility.
...Of course, unless the campaign is mainly about fighting Red Dragons or something.
If you’re a Fire Draconic Sorcerer, this spell is thematic and cool. Whether that counts as a reason to take this, you decide. I might take it.
Investiture of Ice (EE, Concentration): This Investiture revolves around field control. However, it’s mostly too situational to be worth taking.

Weaken Enemies
Mass Suggestion: It’s like suggestion, except it works on up to a dozen targets and doesn’t require concentration.
What?
Yes, I’m deadly serious, and it’s WotC who forgot to be serious this time.
How to use it in combat is easy - you use it, and at that moment, the combat is already over. Of course it can be used out of combat as well. Either way, this spell is amazing in how it’s several spells in one (VERSATILITY dudes!!), meaning it makes a truly wonderful Sorcerer spell.
Eyebite (Concentration): Visually awesome, but requires concentration and all of the effects are duplicates of lower-level spells. Generally I’d pass.

Field Control
Investiture of Ice (EE, Concentration): Also listed in “Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)”. It makes the ground you difficult terrain, and also halves the speed of enemies with a magical attack. Both of these abilities are geared towards “not letting enemies come within melee range of you”, and that’s natural, given this spell was meant to be given to backrow Casters, which don’t want to be hit. Unfortunately, you’re a frontline warrior who just happens to be so awesome that you can also cast high-level spells, so this spell is somewhat anti-synergetic with your combat style. And it also requires concentration...

Out-of-Combat
Mass Suggestion: This spell has the potential to change the course of a campaign - something Suggestion already had, but this does it even better. Since you have leftover high-level spell slots from multiclassing, it’s one option to upcast this spell and keep a certain group of people charmed for ten days, a month, or possibly even an year.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:05 AM

Choosing Your Spells Part 3: Sorcerer (High Levels)

https://media.giphy.com/media/NOHzmFYti2A6c/giphy.gif
I cast a spell!
And it’s pretty high-level for sure!!
(Image Copyright Hiromu Arakawa)

If you went 6/14, this is the farthest you can go with spell levels. Does it have a lot of good options, enough to call it a capstone?
Most certainly yes.
The main thing at this level is Reverse Gravity, which is versatile, full of fun possibilities, and overall extremely powerful. Apart from that, you also gain access to pretty good blasting spells like Fire Storm, Finger of Death, Delayed Blast Fireball, and Prismatic Spray. Note that these are not rated Blue or Black because they’re bad - they’re only rated so because Reverse Gravity is so strong. The other Blasting spells are pretty powerful too, and depending on your DM, Finger of Death can become a terrifying spell...

Blasting
Reverse Gravity (Concentration): Detailed in “Field Control”. This spell inflicts minimum 10d6, maximum 20d6 damage to all creatures in the massive area without a save, and by strict RAW, this damage cannot be resisted by 99% of your enemies. Of course, thinking logically, most DMs will rule that Demons, Devils and other dudes that have resistance to non-magical bludgeoning that comes from hammers will also probably have resistance against the damage that comes from smacking into the ground, but in the MM it states “damage from non-magical weapons”, so...
Fire Storm: And you thought Fireball’s area was already large. This spell’s area is colossal. It basically inflicts average 38.5 (or half of that) damage to every single enemy in the battlefield, which is a grand opening to any encounter. For some weird reason you also have the option to not harm plant life, meaning you can feel free to use it in a forest without fear of eventually immolating yourself.
If you look at just the damage, a level 7 Fireball does it better with 12d6, average 42 damage, so the main reasons to take this would be the insanely wide area, and how it can be more easily used in forest areas. When it gets this large, it even gets possible to use it out of combat to destroy an enemy base.
Finger of Death: Less damage than Disintegrate, but unlike it, you can always deal at least half damage. Like Disintegrate, you can Twin for profit. But the damage part isn’t the important part, it’s the zombie part that is.
The zombies created by this spell are permanently under your control, meaning that you can control as many as the DM permits, and by RAW, it seems you don’t need a bonus action to control them either (unlike in the case with Animate Dead). If your DM permits you to create a gigantic army of zombies with this spell as downtime activity, and you don’t get punished for it, this spell’s rating can range from anywhere between Blue to Gold, but most DMs will probably set a limit, or tell the players to not overabuse it.
Delayed Blast Fireball (Concentration): A really fun and well-designed spell that works as both AoE and field control in its own weird sort of way.
If someone in the party is godly at DEX saves (for instance, a level 17 Rogue with 20 DEX has a +11 bonus from the start, and it gets even better when you add Aura of Protection for +3 or +4 - chances are it surpasses your DC of 17 or 18), you might try throwing it far for massive damage (to lessen the risk, perhaps use Inspiration or something for advantage on the save). In which case Extended Spell adds 10d6 to the damage... but sadly, since you went Sorcerer 13 to get this, you cannot go Paladin 9 for Aura of Vitality. Thus, chances are, you don’t have Extended Spell.
Overall it’s a good spell, but I still rated it Black in here because it’s not that important an option. It’s not that this is weak at all. It’s just that the other level 7 Sorcerer spells are insanely good.
Prismatic Spray: Consider this spell mandatory for Wild Mages, not because it has synergy but because it’s thematically awesome. It’s not an optimized choice but I like it just for the visuals.

Self Protection
Teleport: More of “Party Protection” than “Self Protection” - more like, if you use this spell just on yourself, chances are, your party will not consider you a party member anymore. But it’s not really a buffing spell either, so I listed it in here.
Another note: this rating assumes your party does not have a Wizard. If your party does, just let him be the HM slave.
Now, so, onto the effects. This spell is like the Fly move from Pokemon, except you can use it in the middle of a fight as an emergency button, and if you have something related to your desired destination, you can go to even places that don’t have Pokemon centers (or teleportation circles - that’s how you call them in D&D). As long as your friends huddle around you, you can teleport them as well. If you think a TPK is nearing, call over your friends and use this spell.
As a DM, I’d like to someday have the players roll on the “Similar Area” in the destination list...

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
N/A

Weaken Enemies
Reverse Gravity (Concentration): Monsters with only melee attacks are surprisingly common, even at high levels. Use this spell. Cripple them all. Detailed in “Field Control”.
Plane Shift: This rating assumes you use it as a save-or-suck spell. It certainly is save-or-suck, but the target gets two chances to escape, leaving you with a level 7 spell slot expended and nothing happening whatsoever. The risks are too high to consider using this, especially when lower-level spells can also do save-or-suck.

Field Control
Reverse Gravity (Concentration): Visually, awesome. Mechanically? Beyond awesome. This is one example of a well-designed and powerful high-level spell that really gives you the feeling that you’re a man (or woman) of absolute power. The ultimate Field Controll spell. Yeah, I spelled that right.
The spell starts off by smacking the entire enemy party onto the roof of the citadel, or cavern, or tavern, or whatever place you happen to be fighting within. If it’s a low ceiling, not much damage, but if it’s a high ceiling, this “fall” alone is enough to turn most minions into ground beef, or at least make them really close to becoming ground beef. Monsters with only melee attacks are completely left to the mercy of your party’s archers and Casters (keep in mind that if there is no ceiling, or the ceiling is extremely high, archers may have disadvantage on the attacks due to attack range issues), so feel free to call them names while they’re forced to walk around the ceiling and being able to do nothing.
And when you lose concentration - be it forced or be it on purpose - all creatures in the area fall to the ground, taking 10d6 bludgeoning damage, no save (unless the DM rules that resistance to non-magical weapon attacks can extend to falling damage, this damage cannot be resisted). Even the guys who weren’t ground beef before.... Well, now they are. To add, they’ve falled prone, meaning that once they’ve smacked onto the floor, the melee guys in your party can rush in and stab them with advantage all they want (and remember, you’re also one of these melee guys).
This spell is probably best to use at the start of an encounter, when the enemies and friends are far apart, but if your friends happen to be already in the area, tell them to grab onto something nearby and combine this spell with Careful Spell.
Now, thinking logically, I think most DMs will rule that the people grabbing onto the things nearby cannot move from that point willingly, unless they want to experience the 100-foot fall and smack onto the roof. In which case this spell can debuff even the guys who succeeded on the save, since most monsters cannot attack without using at least one hand.
Then again, if the DM rules that one DEX save is enough to completely resist the gravity thereafter for some weird reason, use that to your advantage by using Careful Spell and having your friends march into the area of this spell while declaring “OH MY GOD I AM PINCHING THE GROUND WITH MY FINGERS, DEX SAVE DONE”.
Either way, this spell is boss. Consider taking this almost mandatory.
Delayed Blast Fireball (Concentration): Detailed in “Blasting”. In short, it basically makes everyone flee from the area.

Out-of-Combat
Fire Storm: It’s originally meant to be an AoE blasting spell, but when the area is this large you can burn down entire buildings, depending on how your DM rules destroying architecture. Consult the DM beforehand if you plan to use this spell in this way. If he says yes to this option, how to use that to your advantage, you decide.
Teleport: Detailed in “Self Protection”. Go anywhere at any time. It needs to be the same world as the one you’re in, though.
Etherealness: Be a good scout, or escape prison. Sadly, Wizards have good scouts via Find Familiar from level 1. This is a level 7 spell. Also, if you’re a character of this level, you honestly probably have some other ways to escape prison (well, to be fair, at least this spell requires no material components, only Verbal and Somatic, so if you happen to be in a situation where your party is in jail, robbed of all armor and weapons and spellbooks, but are somehow not handcuffed nor gagged, you can cast this to slip away. Whether or not you should Know this spell just for that particular situation is a different matter).
Plane Shift: If your campaign is about traveling across the multiverse, or if your DM says that you can now go magic-item shopping in the City of Brass or the demonic capital of Zeletar, this becomes Sky Blue. Then again, if your campaign is about traveling across the multiverse, most of the time I’d assume the DM has given the party ways to travel without using this spell. The idea of a high-level campaign involving epic adventurers traveling across the planes with this spell does seem really interesting, though.

Sorcerers get only six level 8 spell options. Almost all of them are decent. Not many of them are that amazing either.
Half of the six spells are primarily blasting spells, but as already mentioned, blasting isn’t really your thing. Given you have very little room for Spells Known, there’s an actually pretty good possibility that you’re not going to take even a single level 8 spell. TBH I might as well get four extra castings of Shield.

Blasting
Earthquake (Concentration): This rating assumes (1) your DM uses the “Fissure” variant, (2) you do not fight often in friendly cities, and (3) your DM is generous with where to place the fissures. If your campaign does not belong in even one of the above, this is a trap. If your campaign is mainly about destroying enemy cities or anything, this becomes better. Really campaign dependent, and when it sucks, it really sucks.
That said, even at its best, this spell is meh for damaging purposes. The damage is 10d6 to everyone that fails a save in the fissure area, but it becomes 0 damage on a successful save. And it may affect friends too.
Sunburst: Okay damage of an almost never resisted damage type, hilariously large area, CON save for half damage, makes people blinded on a failed save. Mixed bag of pros and cons and difficult to rate, but when there are lots of other Sorcerer spell options that you can declare awesome the moment you read it, this really becomes a secondary option on your list. And for the record, Sorcerers don’t have enough Spells Known to ever get to the secondary options.
Gets a lot better if you’re always fighting vampires, but really, how often does that happen?
Incendiary Cloud (Concentration): The damage is about the same as a Fireball of the same level, and it deals the same type of damage. However, this spell is different in how it moves around the battlefield (albeit slowly) and inflicts that damage to the people inside at the start of every turn.
Is it worth a level 8 spell slot and being a Spell Known?
I would say no, even with draconic riders. The fact you need to move it away 10 feet from you every turn really kills it, because it can’t stay in a particular area for too long, and the fact it’s only 10 feet per turn also kills it, because enemies can run away with ease, unless you corner them or otherwise use this in the right situation.
It’s not a bad spell at all. It just isn’t worth being level 8. I’d expect something like “move around 30 feet every turn in a direction you want” at this level, because then we’d be talking.
Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting: Look, here you can see that WotC is being friendly to beginners by specifically stating this spell is horrid on the very label. I don’t know who Abi-Dalzim is, but one thing for sure, he shouldn’t have named this spell after himself. Sure, its damage type might be seldom resisted, but 45 damage is honestly not that of a big deal at this level, and if the enemies you are facing are the really tanky ones that you really want to slam that damage into, chances are they’d succeed on the save with no problem because it’s a CON save. 23 damage? As a level 8 spell? It’s a joke, and a very bad one too. There is very little reason to ever cast this spell, and when you’re someone with only 15 Spells Known at maximum, there is no reason to ever take it. Even if your campaign is mainly about fighting Water Elementals and Plants, I would still think twice before taking it.

Self Protection
N/A

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
N/A

Weaken Enemies
Earthquake (Concentration): As mentioned in “Blasting”, this rating assumes (1) your DM uses the “Fissure” variant, (2) you do not fight often in friendly cities, and (3) your DM is generous with where to place the fissures. If your campaign does not belong in even one of the above, this is a trap. If your campaign is mainly about destroying enemy cities or anything, this becomes great. Really campaign dependent, and when it sucks, it really sucks.
Power Word Stun: It’s not bad if your DM allows you to look at the remaining HP of enemy monsters before you cast it, and this rating assumes that. But if your DM is not letting you know, this is a trap.
Also, in all honestly I’d rather use a Heightened Hold Monster than use this. Stunned might be powerful as a condition, but paralyzing is better.
Sunburst[/color]: Blinds all the enemies in a pretty large area. Deos not Requires concentration and allows the targets to re-make the save at the start of every turn, though, and I’m not sure if you really want to use a level 8 spell slot for just this.
Dominate Monster (Concentration): Used as means of making the enemy team weaker, this spell is terrible, since it bestows advantage on the target during combat.

Field Control
Incendiary Cloud (Concentration): A cloud of smog that obscures the area, deals decent damage to the people inside, and moves around 10 feet every turn (but only away from you). Sadly, if you want Field Control, there are much better options at this level. And this spell also requires concentration.
Dominate Monster (Concentration): This spell is terrible in combat, since it bestows advantage on enemy targets you face, and it re-forces the save every time the target takes damage.

Out-of-Combat
Dominate Monster (Concentration): The spell bestows advantage on enemies while fighting, and re-forces the save every time guy takes damage. Thus this spell is best used for non-combat purposes. Problem is, at this level, most of the time, your friends will have ways to overcome non-combat situations without expending a level 8 slot.

2/18 and 3/17 builds get these. Since there’s no reason to stop Paladin at a level from 4 to 5, all builds that get level 8 spells also eventually get level 9 spells.

Contrary to how level 8 spells were overall underpowered for their required slot level, level 9 spells are BOSS. They can do anything, and I mean literally anything here, because Wish.

Wish is near-mandatory. Meteor Swarm is awesome when you use it right, and in the right campaigns, Gate can be a wonderful way to transport an entire army into the battlefield and ensure victory.
What, Time Stop and Power Word Kill? Umm.... Ehhh...
...Um, at least, Time Stop has its uses out-of-combat.

This section will also try to be helpful to the readers as much as possible by pointing out what’s the best uses for Wish. In fact this section is more about how to use Wish than rating the level 9 spells.

Blasting
Wish: This spell can be anything. ANYTHING you choose, of ANY spell of level 8 or lower. And the Sorcerer class’s greatest weakness was its limited spell list... Now that you have this, you’re the master of utility. (This spell also adds to the reason why you’re okay without taking any level 8 spells.)
Each section will talk about the good candidates for this spell, including insight on how to abuse the hell out of this spell.
Tsunami (level 8, concentration): The best use of this spell is to wash away a whole division of the enemy nation’s army in a war campaign. It will be an AWESOME sight.
Generally, Wish should be used not for damage, but for other purposes, and thus this is the only real “Blasting” way to use Wish I will list here.
Meteor Swarm: Blasting is one thing, and nuking is another. Clean up all the enemies with 140 damage on a hilarious large area. Beware of Fire resistance, and even more of Fire immunity.
Power Word Kill: It’s a spell of great power that kills a level 9 spell slot and a Spell Known for nothing. It’s truly a power word. I know. Hilarious.
It’s bad, even for normal spellcasters, but as a gish you have the equipment and abilities required to smack out 100+ damage in a single round without using a level 9 slot (Divine Smite + Hold Person etc.), making it even worse.
The only circumstances in which you’d want to use this is when you want to assassinate someone without leaving any trace of harm, but how often will that come up?

Self Protection
Wish: Some candidates for using Wish as self protection (and god, there are many):
Clone (level 8): A near-mandatory use of Wish, since Wish ignores spell components, and now your clone costs you less than a lunch at MacDonald’s. Don’t forget to declare to the DM that you will cast this at some time during your downtime activity (because real optimizers use downtime to get ready for the next battle). This spell basically makes you (and your party) immortal. By RAW it seems you can create multiple Clones, so you might as well create one for almost every downtime day. Why I said “almost” will be detailed below.

https://media.giphy.com/media/on9HLM5IoWJVe/giphy.gif
^ You can’t help but smile when you realize you have got a gajillion spare lives in your basement. ^
(Considering what happened to the Clones of this girl, it might actually be a better idea to put all the clones in different places, though...)
(Image Copyright Hideaki Anno)

Contingency (level 6): Yet another awesome use of Wish, and again, you don’t have to buy the material components for it either. Use this during downtime to make sure that “at the start of your next encounter, Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility/whatever automatically activates upon you” or something, and just have fun economizing your limited resources of spell slots per adventuring day. By RAW it is vague whether this spell works with upcast spells, but if your DM rules it does, you can basically say “SITRUS BERRY”, automatically casting a level 5 Cure Wounds every time your HP drop below half. The duration is 10 days, meaning if you cast it once every 10 days of downtime, it’s enough to make sure you’re always holding a f***ing Sitrus Berry.

http://pa1.narvii.com/5731/21cee1cfe5519dba9a52832af5bc5950f75b6928_hq.gif
^ SITRUS BERRY!!! ^
(Image Copyright Nintendo)

Holy Aura (level 8, concentration): A Cleric-only spell that gives advantage on all saving throws + disadvantage on all attack rolls meant at them to you and all your friends (to be exact, the friends who were close to you when you activated this spell, but it’s essentially the same thing, since they’d be huddled around you at the start of the battle if you declare you’re gonna use this). Even better against Fiends and Undead, which all get blinded with a CON save whenever they hit. To be fair, most Fiends and Undead are good at CON saves, so it might not work as often as you assume, but still, a good bonus.
Regenerate (level 7, concentration): A spell can heal 633 HP average on a target. I’m not sure I understand what I’m saying, but at least that’s what it says on the label. The fact it can’t spread the heal over multiple targets sorta sucks (and Twinning Wish is really, really costly), but since this doesn’t get included in Spells Known, make sure to keep this in mind.

Buffing Friends (and/or Yourself)
Wish: Some candidates for using Wish as buff:
Simulacrum (level 7): Not exactly a buff, but something that enhances the power of the entire party, so I supposed it’d belong here. This is the No.1 top priority MANDATORY use of Wish, since Wish ignores spell components, and does not cost you 1500GP per casting. One Sorcadin is one thing; two Sorcadins is another. And the second Sorcadin HAS A NINTH LEVEL SPELL SLOT that can be expended for the other uses of Wish, meaning that you only gain stuff and do not lose ANYTHING by casting Simulacrum. Casting Simulacrum at the start of every adventure is ALWAYS the right thing to do (though it does take 12 hours to do so). Are you joking? No, I’m not joking. What’s joking is the utter brokenness of this spell.
Clone (level 8): Already listed in “Self Protection”, but this spell can be actually used on anyone, including your party friends, or even important NPCs who you don’t want to die, such as your patron king or guild merchant. With clones of your entire party stored everywhere, your adventures will feel less like D&D and more like Super Mario Brothers.
Holy Aura (level 8, concentration): Already mentioned in “Self Protection”, this spell is like a weird variant of Foresight. Doesn’t give advantage on your attacks, doesn’t make you immune to ambushes and requires concentration, but can affect multiple friends at the same time, and can blind Fiends and Undead. Under the right circumstances this can be better. (You DO wish you could have learned Foresight, though...)
Animal Shapes (level 8, concentration): Hilarious in a war campaign - turn a hundred soldiers into giant elephants (like that scene from Lord of the Rings), or giant scorpions, or Ankylosauruses. Whatever works, and it works like nuts.
Mind Blank (level 8): A splendid buff spell that does not require concentration and makes a friend (or yourself) immune to psychic damage, divination, charming, and and mind-reading. It’s situational but solid, and when you need it, you’ll love it. The fact you don’t even need to prepare it makes this a wonderful asset that you should never forget you have. If anything, Wish’s power differs greatly based on how much knowledge you have of the spells in the PHB (and EE), so make sure to remember these stuff.
Regenerate (level 7, concentration): Again already listed in “Self Protection, it’s the best healing spell you can get as a 2/18 or 3/17 Sorcadin. It does take time to regenerate, though, so using this during mid-combat may not work as effective as it seems. Sure, healing 1 HP at the start of every turn means the target will never lose his turn due to being HP 0, but if he takes multiple hits before his turn comes, he might as well just die. Over-reliance can be fatal. If you want massive healing during combat, Heal (level 6) exists - but not really the best use of a level 9 slot.
Resurrection (level 7): Under normal circumstances, outclassed by Clone. However, 120 days is long, and if a party member died before 120 days have passed after you obtained Wish, you might as well Wish for this.
The largest weakness of this spell is that you can’t use it on yourself.

Weaken Enemies
Wish: Some candidates for using Wish as de-buff:
Maze (level 8): A wonderful spell that banishes a target without a save. Those with low INT scores may spend turns (or even 10 turns no questions asked, if its INT is 9 or lower) just trying to get back. It’s like Banishment’s older brother, and that means it’s really good.
Feeblemind (level 8): Basically reads “cripple the enemy Caster and make him mentally handicapped”. Use together with Heightened Spell (or Hound of Ill Omen) to ensue victory. This is arguably one of the most morally ambiguous spells out there, but then again, killing is fine, so maybe this is fine too in the D&D universe. It really is a terrible thing to do to a person, though.

Field Control
Wish: Some candidates for using Wish as field control:
Antipathy/Sympathy (level 8): Arguably one of the best Field Control spells in the entire game. Requires beforehand research, but doesn’t even require concentration and can be cast up to 10 days in advance. Use this to lure all enemies into a single area and then BLAST’EM all the way, or radiate an aura that makes Red Dragons afraid of you. Whatever works. This spell does not work on its own as effectively as when you combine it with other effects, so discuss with party members beforehand about how to make the most out of this spell. Creativity is the key.
You can cast this on multiple targets at the same time.
Forcecage (level 7): Remember how you were bragging about how you don’t have Wall of Force? Well, now you do. And it’s better.

Out-of-Combat
Wish: Some candidates for using Wish out-of-combat:
Glibness (level 8): You don’t need mind-controlling spells to hire enemies as minions anymore, because now you can just intimidate or persuade them by your word. This is how you win an election, or create the adventurer’s guild you always wanted to rule over.
Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion (level 7): Leomond’s Tiny Hut’s really, really, really older brother. For all your cozy resting needs in the middle of a jungle, a desert, or the elemental chaos.
Telepathy (level 8): It’s almost the same ability as the average cell phone, and worse of an ability than the average smartphone (no gaming applications), but at least this can allow you to communicate with the Tarrasque. Not that that will allow you to persuade him to go back to his home or anything, but still.
Move Earth (level 6, concentration): Allows you to re-create terrain, or make enemy fortresses collapse. Especially useful in war campaigns.
Wall of Stone (level 5, concentration): Use every day to gradually build your home fortress. Yes, you have this spell on the Sorcerer spell list, but using it via Wish, it doesn’t take up a Spell Known.
Control Weather (level 8): Maybe you live in the countryside and the peasants ask you to make it rain. You can make it rain.
With the right DM, creative players might be able to use this in war campaigns to cripple an enemy army by heavy precipitation, thick fog, and hailstorms. Isn’t that everyone’s dream?
Gate (Concentration): Call forth minions. This is like an upgraded “Conjure whatever” spell with the right set-up done beforehand, and it can even mean “Summon Army” in some campaigns, but it’s not for everyone. If it seems like a good idea to take this, take this. If not, pass.
Time Stop (Concentration): This spell is listed in “Out-of-Combat” because it sucks hard in combat. You can’t damage enemies with it, it requires concentration; it sucks, it just sucks, it really, really, sucks. If your DM knows Jojo’s Bizarre Adventures he might allow you to throw dozens of knives at the target that stop mid-air and then go stabstabstab into the target the moment the Time Stop ends, or if he knows Puella Magi Madoka Magica he might allow you to do the same with shotguns and missiles and explosives, but either way, using a level 9 spell for just damage is not a very good use either. It doesn’t even allow you to walk around and disarm all your enemies. How restrictive is that?
Even out of combat, it’s not like this spell has a lot of uses. But at least it lets you cheat in games of chance, steal items without leaving a trace, and do other stuff that might come in handy in some limited situations.
Is it worth the Spell Known?
No. It isn’t.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:07 AM

My whole life was - Unlimited Blade Works
Sample Builds

http://pa1.narvii.com/5848/ae99a306d05f8d9d8b7768d4c57c871dd9e1568d_hq.gif
Show me your moves!
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

Now, the first thing I must say is that most characters do not actually get to level 20. Thus I know that just posting level 20 builds will be not very helpful for a majority of the people.

Here I will post :
Level 6 builds meant for 2/X or 3/X Paladins (This is for when you know your campaign is going to end before hitting Level 12, in which going Paladin 6 might slow down your Caster progression a bit too much, and it can be better to go just Paladin 2 or 3)
Level 12, 13 and 20 builds meant for 6/14 or 7/13 Paladins (Level 12 is where you get 6/6 and your Paladin/Sorcerer gish starts to get really nasty, while Level 20 is your “ideal way to perfect your character”)

http://pa1.narvii.com/5706/bf5a4e681511cb05058b237dddcadeb6d2269796_hq.gif
DIVINE SMITE!!
(Image Copyright Ufotable)
Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin 2/ Sorcerer (Draconic, Gold) 4
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10+1d10+4d6+3x6+1x4=54
Final AC: 21 (Plate + Shield + Defense), +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-16
Final Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-16
Feats: Heavy Armor Master, War Caster
Fighting Style: Defense
Paladin (the ones that you almost constantly prepare)
Level 1: Command, Bless, Cure Wounds
(You can also prepare1 extra spell in addition to the above every day)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Friends, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Minor Illusion
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Hold Person, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Web

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... Obvious choice for any Sorcadin
Careful Spell... Use together with Web, and later Hypnotic Pattern
This build assumes your campaign ends before you hit level 12, in which case Aura of Protection becomes a bit lackluster due to the long delay in Caster levels. This build also assumes the campaign either starts at level 6 or higher, or your DM allowed you to ignore somatic and material components using houserules, or perhaps some minor magic item - otherwise you cannot spellcast without War Caster (as an example of a houserule, a particular character I created had a smexy tattoo that acted as her arcane focus, so she didn’t need War Caster).

This is already a pretty darn powerful gish build. With good defenses, good nova, and encounter-changing spells like Hold Person, Suggestion and Web@Careful, this guy is versatile, and without doubt, fun to use. The only problem will be that this guy’s DPR lags a bit behind those with extra attacks, but as explained in “the Neutral” box of “Pros and Cons”, it’s not that much of a problem. And once you get to level 8 (2/6), you will gain Elemental Affinity and get much better.

It’s possible to take Twinned or Heightened instead of Careful, and swap out Web for something else. Here I took Web because Web+Careful Spell is a pretty darn powerful combination, and it’s one of the very few ways to get good field control at this level.

However, be aware that using Green-Flame Blade in the area of Web can burn down the squares in which it’s used. Then, does this make taking Web a bad idea? No, not at all! Once you use Web, just use Booming Blade, and it’s all fine. Also worth noting that BB and Web work together wonderful, since Web forces the target to make a save at the start of every turn as long as the target starts his turn in the area... do you understand what this means?

Any creature adjacent to you in the area of Web and who failed his DEX save will must a Strength check as an action to escape the Restrained condition. However, even if he succeeds on this check, he remains adjacent to you, also within the area of Web, and on top of that, he has ended his action (meaning no attack or even the disengage action). Thus, he must either turn his back on you and run, provoking an opportunity Booming Blade from War Caster and taking massive damage, or stay in the spot, risking re-making a DEX save at the start of his next turn. This combination forces the enemy to make a difficult decision - and it’s also pretty darn cheap, requiring only a level 2 spell slot and 1 Sorcery Point.

Once you level up, the level 3 spells are almost mandatory at this point, with Draconic Sorcerer and Careful Spell - Fireball[/b] and Hypnotic Pattern[/b].

http://img.gifmagazine.net/gifmagazine/images/30467/original.gif?1413982327
Roll Initiative.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)
Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Crown) 6/ Sorcerer (Draconic, Gold) 6
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10+5d10+5d6+1x6+3x12=106
Final AC: 21 (Plate + Shield + Defense), +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-16
Final Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-18
Feats: Heavy Armor Master, War Caster
Fighting Style: Defense
Paladin (the ones that you almost constantly prepare)
Level 1: Command*, Compelled Duel*, Bless, Cure Wounds
Level 2: Warding Bond*, Zone of Truth*, Aid
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare4 extra spells in addition to the above every day)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Friends, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Minor Illusion
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Hold Person, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Web
Level 3: Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... Obvious choice for any Sorcadin
Careful Spell... Use together with Web andr Hypnotic Pattern
This is sort of like a missing link in-between the level 6 and 20 Crown/Draconic Longsword builds. You get both good spellcasting, good saves, and good DPR.

A level 11 STR 18 S&B pure Paladin with Dueling, Extra Attack and Improved Divine Smite inflicts 2d8+6 damage per hit, 4d8+12=30 damage average every round. Your Green-Flame Blade without Dueling but with Elemental Affinity (even if it’s only once per spell, as ruled by Sage Advice or whatever random blabbering) inflicts 3d8+7 damage to one target and 2d8+4 damage to another, adding up to be 5d8+11=33.5 damage. Though it all depends on only one attack roll, gets weaker against monsters with fire resistance or immunity, and requires 2 monsters to be adjacent to each other, it’s quite good. And remember, you don’t need to be the king of DPR to be a good Longsword Sorcadin build in the first place.

Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern continue to be powerful spells even at this level. You have the Caster slots of a level 9 Caster (4-3-3-3-1), so you can gain lots more Sorcery Points (or upcast Command, Aid or Hold Person).

From here, you should go Sorcerer all the way.

http://i.imgur.com/gB2IJdm.gif
You do not know the power of the Dark Side...
(Image Copyright Ufotable)
Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7/ Sorcerer (Shadow) 6
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10+6d10+5d6+3x13=109
Final AC: 20 (Plate + Shield), +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-16
Final Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-18
Feats: Heavy Armor Master, War Caster
Fighting Style: Dueling
Paladin (the ones that you almost constantly prepare)
Level 1: Hellish Rebuke*, Inflict Wounds*, Command, Bless, Cure Wounds
Level 2: Crown of Madness*, Darkness*, Aid
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare3 extra spells in addition to the above every day)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Minor Illusion, Ray of Frost
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Hold Person, Mirror Image, Web
Level 3: Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Conjure Lesser Demon (UA)

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... Obvious choice for any Sorcadin
Careful Spell... Use together with Web and Hypnotic Pattern
This is half an optimized build and half a thematic build, the ultimate Emo Sorcadin. It’s also what a S&B Sorcadin that utilizes Extra Attack more looks like.

Notice how this build does not have Defense as the Paladin Fighting Style. This is because this build took Dueling instead, to synergize with Extra Attack.

With STR 16, CHA 16 (Aura of Hate) and Dueling, each of your attacks deal 1d8+3+3+2=1d8+8 damage. Two attacks deals 2d8+16=25 damage average.

Wait! But, isn’t that lower than that of a Green-Flame Blade of the same level? You’re losing in DPR!!

Yes, true. GFB + Elemental Affinity does better damage than Extra Attack + Dueling + Aura of Hate. HOWEVER, you will not always have an enemy adjacent to you. If there is only one enemy to damage, GFB + EA can do only 20.5 damage average, meaning you’re better in terms of DPR. Also, you get more chances to slam in Divine Smite.

To maximize the potential of Aura of Hate, I’ve thrown in a rather unique and extremely thematic spell - Conjure Lesser Demon. This allows you to summon eight Manes or Dretches (forget the Manes, you have zero reason to summon them), which are futile CR 1/4 Demons with AC 11 and HP 18. These creatures are hostile to all non-demons around them, meaning they might attack your friends if you place them in the wrong places. To make Aura of Hate work as good as it can, you should place these near you as much as possible. Of course, being an Oathbreaker, you’re perfectly fine with killing people, so make sure to kill someone at the start of the adventuring day, and draw the circle created from the blood of the innocents when casting this spell. (Due to this nature of the spell, only evil campaigns will allow you to join, but you’ll be a hilarious addition to any evil campaign.)

Rather disgustingly, the Dretches’ attack bonus to hit is only +2, meaning that if 1/3 of their attacks hit you’re lucky - however, they have multiattack, meaning they make 16 attacks per round. Now, due to the nature of minionmancy, you should consult your DM before using or even taking this spell, but if you think of how about 4 or 5 attacks will hit (much more if your friends have some way to make the attack rolls have advantage), dealing +20 or +25 damage from just Aura of Hate, you can say this is a pretty damn interesting spell.

If the demons start to become more annoying than helpful, you can always end concentration at any timing you wish. Unlike in the case with the other Conjure Demon spells, once your concentration is broken, the Demons summoned by this spell all instantly disappear, making it not as problematic.

If there’s a necromancer in your party, perhaps your DM may rule that the demons will start attacking the zombies near you. In which case, it’s not a good idea to take this spell, so perhaps swap it with something else. Animate Dead is actually better if you can have it... Just, you don’t have it. (BTW, for this reason, going Paladin 9 for Animate Dead can become a viable choice at later levels.)

Apart from that, the BB + War Caster + Careful Spell + Web combo (already mentioned in Longsword 6) has amazing synergy with Dreadful Aspect, so be sure to remember it, and use it. Locking down opponents into fear-mode and not allowing them to escape by making them restrained is pretty devastating. And guess what - the Frightened condition bestows disadvantage on checks, meaning that once your enemies (who have already been affected by Dreadful Aspect) get restrained, chances are they will waste a lot of their turns just trying to succeed on the STR ability check. What awesome synergy is this?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/0f58d437835bc0b24e9025a92b3d19a6/tumblr_o0cnlgIar51v1l4cbo1_r1_500.gif
It shines bright... It is the true embodiment of the sad yet noble dream of all soldiers, past, present, and future, who lie dying on the field of battle...
Clutched to their hearts with their last breath, holding aloft their dying wish, making certain that their loyalty will not be in vain...
The Invincible King is about to cry out the true name of the miracle she wields in her hands. That name is...
...Excalibur.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)
Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Crown) 6/ Sorcerer (Draconic, Gold) 14
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10+5d10+14d6+3x20+1x14=170
Final AC: 21 (Plate + Shield + Defense), +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-16
Final Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-20
Feats: Heavy Armor Master, War Caster, Inspiring Leader
Fighting Style: Defense
Paladin (the ones that you almost constantly prepare)
Level 1: Command*, Compelled Duel*, Bless, Cure Wounds
Level 2: Warding Bond*, Zone of Truth*, Aid
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare5 extra spells in addition to the above every day)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Friends, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Message, Minor Illusion
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Mirror Image, Web
Level 3: Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste
Level 4: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Wall of Fire
Level 5: Animate Objects, Hold Monster
Level 6: Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Reverse Gravity

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... Obvious choice for any Sorcadin
Careful Spell... Use together with spells like Web, Hypnotic Pattern and Reverse Gravity
Twinned Spell... For buffing multiple friends at once with Haste, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph
The basic premise is to lock down all your enemies. This build does not have the devastating DPR of GWM builds, but makes up for that with amazing defense, field control and better spellcasting, not to mention better saving throws.

This build is extremely defensive (this does not mean at all that it has weak offense, though). With base AC 21 via Plate, Shield and Defense, on top of Mirror Image, the Shield spell, and possible disadvantage on your attacks due to Greater Invisibility or another +2 AC due to Haste, you are a wonderful tank.

This build also includes Heavy Armor Master. For one it’s a means of getting +1 to STR using Variant Human, but for another, it adds to the tankiness - even if you do take damage from enemy weapons, it will be reduced by 3 every time (monsters with magical weapons are surprisingly rare, even at high levels). The reduction may seem small on first glance, but it will eventually accumulate to be a lot over the adventuring day, and will most definitely save your skin - or at least keep you from using up too much Cure Wounds and Lay on Hands.

Since using Cure Wounds will lessen your uses of Shield, and Lay on Hands is a limited resource (using it to heal diseases and poison is very important and also economical), you want to take minimum damage. To make this possible, this build has also taken the Inspiring Leader feat, which gives you and your friends 25 temporary HP in-between every single short rest. This and Heavy Armor Master create a nice cushion that helps you not take that much damage. ...And it helps your friends as well.

To keep your enemies constantly fixed on you and protect your party’s backrow, utilize the Champion Challenge ability of Oath of the Crown. Your enemies will be forced to attack only you, but when they do, you can just use Shield to ward them all off (the effectiveness of Shield has already been explained in the “Longsword” column of this guide), effectively rendering all the enemies’ attacks useless. When you run out of level 1 spell slots, depending on how often you use high-level slots (this is a matter of playstyle), you can perhaps use Font of Magic to re-gain them. Don’t bother converting level 2 slots for this usage though, since creating a level 1 spell slot requires 2 Sorcery Points, and it’s better to simply keep that level 2 slot (in case you’re not going to use Shield).

Since the enemies are all fixed in melee range around you, possibly standing together, Green-Flame Blade becomes more effective than under normal circumstances (better chances of there being two enemies within range - of course, unless you’ve already killed all of them but one). And since you’re going to use GFB a lot, why not give it a damage boost? Oh, and, if it’s gonna be a damage boost, why not base it off your ,maxed-out casting stat? Yeah, I know - my point is that Draconic Sorcerer is a wonderful combination in that regard, with Elemental Affinity adding +5 damage to all your GFB attacks. Lots of interesting synergy here.

Since a lot of enemies will be encircling you, Careful Spell becomes a pretty good Metamagic choice - better than it is for other builds. Feel free to use spells like Web and Hypnotic Pattern, centered around you. Except oh wait, you don’t get affected at all! The lolz. The trollololz. Enjoy as your enemies all get restrained while you and your friends do not.

Another thing about Careful Spell is that it requires only 1 Sorcery Point to use, and compared to how easily the other Metamagic options can eat through Sorcery Points, you can say it’s really, really economical. If you still remember what I said in the first section of this guide, the weakness of Sorcadins is that they can’t do anything after they’ve used up resources, but Careful Spell is unlikely to become the reason for that problem. (I still threw Twinned Spell into the Metamagic list here, though, because it works amazing with Greater Invisibility, Polymorph and Haste)

Bit off-track: Perhaps someone said something about how spells like Fireball are anti-synergetic with Careful Spell, because you still take half damage. Well then, if you really want to minimize the damage, you can use the secret hidden ability of Elemental Affinity to gain fire resistance for 1 hour at the cost of just 1 Sorcery Point. Both Careful Spell and Elemental Affinity cost only 1 Sorcery Point, so use whichever is better in the particular situation. In short, when using Fireball on your area:
If you’re not the only guy in the area: Careful Spell
If you’re the only guy in the area: Elemental Affinity
Is the way to go. Either way, you take only half damage - or if you used Elemental Affinity and succeeded on your DEX save, only a quarter of the damage. Technically you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to guarantee you take only 1/4 damage, but honestly, it’s probably a bit too high-priced.

Now, of course, just because you have Shield, doesn’t mean you’re invincible from all enemy attacks, especially critical hits. I’ve equipped this build with Heavy Armor Master to mitigate that problem as much as possible, but if you still find yourself a bit too wounded after a fight is over, just use (a possibly upcast version of) Cure Wounds, or Lay on Hands.

Here I threw in Animate Objects as another way to maintain the frontline and make you better at your job, this spell being considerably good at being a damage sponge. If you have low HP but want to keep on fighting, Polymorph into a T-Rex (or whatever the equivalent of a T-Rex is in your campaign world) with Quickened Spell, and essentially gain 136 temporary HP. Not getting able to cast spells is bad, but the DPR is higher than your normal self, and you get to keep on doing your job to help your friends. If you use Champion Challenge just before activating Polymorph, your enemies will be forced to stay within 30 feet of a T-Rex. Isn’t that quite terrifying? (It even synergizes, since T-Rexes need over 2 enemies within attack range for their attacks to all be effective.)

With a CHA score of 20, you are also a wonderful Caster, your saving throw DC being 19, the highest number possible for a normal character. Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Monster, and Mass Suggestion especially benefit from this. Elemental Affinity also gets yummier from the +5 damage, and especially since you will be using Green-Flame Blade often, you can say this is an important part of this build.

Your maxed-out CHA boosts not only your Sorcerer spellcasting. It also makes Champion Challenge and Turn the Tide better / harder to resist, and allows you to choose more Paladin spells (most Paladin spells are situational, but this pretty much means that you get to be more adaptable to all sorts of niche situations). And the best part is that with maximum benefits from Aura of Protection, you get +5 to all saving throws.

The saving throws of this build are like the following:
STR: +8
DEX: +4
CON: +8
INT: +4
WIS: +10
CHA: +16
Yeah, that’s awesome.

If you want your CON saves to be better, take Resilient (CON) instead of Heavy Armor Master, and spend those Variant Human +1s on STR and CHA. That way you get the same ability scores as this original build, except with +6 to CON saves instead of a -3 cushion from all physical attacks.

Generally speaking, if your party has a Bard, you don’t need Resilient (CON). If your party does not, it might be pretty good, especially if your DM has a habit of throwing in Beholders, Demiliches and the sort as boss monsters, or he really likes throwing in drow with poisoned crossbows.

http://img.gifmagazine.net/gifmagazine/images/682318/original.gif?1449683595
BE PREPARED.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)
Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Oathbreaker) 9/ Sorcerer (Shadow) 11
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10+8d10+11d6+3x20=162
Final AC: 20 (Plate + Shield), +2 with Haste, +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16-8-16-8-8-16
Final Stats: 18-8-16-8-8-20
Feats: Heavy Armor Master, War Caster
Fighting Style: Dueling
Paladin (the ones that you almost constantly prepare)
Level 1: Hellish Rebuke*, Inflict Wounds*, Command, Bless, Cure Wounds
Level 2: Crown of Madness*, Darkness*, Aid
Level 3: Animate Dead*, Bestow Curse*, Aura of Vitality, Dispel Magic
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare3 extra spells in addition to the above every day)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Friends, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Minor Illusion, Ray of Frost
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Hold Person, Mirror Image, Web
Level 3: Fireball, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern
Level 4: Banishment, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph
Level 5: Hold Monster
Level 6: Mass Suggestion

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... Obvious choice for any Sorcadin
Careful Spell... Use together with Web and Hypnotic Pattern
Twinned Spell... Use together with Haste, Greater Invisibility, and Polymorph for the lolz
(Hound of Ill Omen... Not an actual Metamagic option, but similar in usage. This makes Heightened Spell redundant)
(If you feel your party lacks healing you can take Extended Spell to maximize Aura of Vitality)

NOTE-This is theorycrafting, and I have not used it yet. However, I do suspect it will be fun to use.

This is a rather interesting variant of S&B Sorcadins that utilizes Extra Attack more than it does GFB or BB (though they might be Quickened when you really need that extra damage), using Dueling, Aura of Hate, and Haste to maximize the damage. On first glance Oathbreaker 11 seems interesting, but IMO improving your casting and increasing your slots and Sorcery Points is better. The worst part is, with Sorcerer 9, you cannot gain your third Metamagic option. I prefer 9/11.

“Since Aura of Hate gives +5 damage to all undead and demons around you, why not throw in Animate Dead?”
“But Gastronomie, Sorcerers don’t get Animate Dead!”
“Oathbreaker 9 does! Together with Aura of Vitality!”

You may not get the amazing bonuses that Necromancy School Wizards have, but your zombies will still be pretty good. I’ve cut Conjure Lesser Demon from the spell list because of the potential anti-synergy it has with Animate Dead (the Dretches may start attacking the skeletons).

Whether to summon forth Zombies or Skeletons is something of a problem. Skeletons can attack ranged, so they’re generally the better option, but Zombies serve as really tough, annoying meat shields (and you like having meat shields near you). Perhaps you should have a good mix of both.

Now, since you get Aura of Vitality from Paladin 9, I would love to take Extended Spell as a Metamagic Option and allow you to heal 140 HP with a single level 3 spell, but sadly you get only 3 Metamagic Options at this level. You don’t need Heightened Spell thanks to the Shadow Sorcerer’s Hound of Ill Omen ability, but Quickened and Careful are already near-mandatory. I would choose Twinned Spell, which can empower Greater Invisibility and Polymorph, over Extended Spell (which has no other spells it can combo with).

Banishment is important for this build because it allows you to banish the Fiends that are potentially lethal for you (imagine the terror of a Marilith with an +5 damage bonus to all his attacks!) Since most Fiends have Magic Resistance, don’t forget to use together with Hound of Ill Omen.

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad133/greedymode/fsn/berserker2.gif
And you call that GREAT WEAPON MASTER.
(Image Copyright Ufotable)
Concept: Great Weapon Master
Class: Paladin (Devotion) 6/ Sorcerer (Shadow) 14
Race: Variant Human
Final HP: 10+5d10+14d6+3x20=156
Final AC: 19 (Plate + Defense), +1 with Blade Mastery (Reaction), +5 with the Shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16-8-15-8-8-16
Final Stats: 20-8-16-8-8-16
Feats: Great Weapon Master, Resilient (CON), Blade Mastery (UA)
Paladin (the ones that you almost constantly prepare)
Level 1: Protection from Evil and Good*, Sanctuary*, Bless, Command, Cure Wounds
Level 2: Lesser Restoration*, Zone of Truth*
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare3 extra spells in addition to the above every day)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Friends, Lightning Lure, Message, Minor Illusion, Shape Water
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Hold Person, Mirror Image
Level 3: Counterspell, Fireball, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern
Level 4: Banishment, Greater Invisibility
Level 5: Hold Monster
Level 6: Chain Lightning, Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Reverse Gravity

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... Because almost every Action will be Extra Attack
Careful Spell... Use together with Hypnotic Pattern
Twinned Spell... To abuse Greater Invisibility, because you use it so often
(Hound of Ill Omen... Not an actual Metamagic option, but similar in usage. This makes Heightened Spell redundant)

This build is focused on GWM through getting bonuses to hit and gaining advantage.
At level 17 and higher, your normal attack rolls will have a +12 bonus to hit. Add Sacred Weapon for +3, and the end result is an attack roll of +15. If someone in your party is casting Bless on you (which they should), add extra 1d4. In the below math, I’d just consider Bless +2 to make math simpler.
AC 15
Normal Attack without GWM (+12): 90%
Normal Attack with GWM (+7): 65%
Advantage and GWM (+7 twice): 87.75%
Sacred Weapon with GWM (+10): 80%
Sacred + GWM + Adv. (+10 twice): 96%
Sacred + GWM + Bless + Adv. (+12 twice): 99%

AC 17
Normal Attack without GWM (+12): 80%
Normal Attack with GWM (+7): 55%
Advantage and GWM (+7 twice): 79.75%
Sacred Weapon with GWM (+10): 70%
Sacred + GWM + Adv. (+10 twice): 91%
Sacred + GWM + Bless + Adv. (+12 twice): 96%

AC 19
Normal Attack without GWM (+12): 70%
Normal Attack with GWM (+7): 45%
Advantage and GWM (+7 twice): 69.75%
Sacred Weapon with GWM (+10): 60%
Sacred + GWM + Adv. (+10 twice): 84%
Sacred + GWM + Bless + Adv. (+12 twice): 91%

AC 21
Normal Attack without GWM (+12): 60%
Normal Attack with GWM (+7): 35%
Advantage and GWM (+7 twice): 57.75%
Sacred Weapon with GWM (+10): 50%
Sacred + GWM + Adv. (+10 twice): 75%
Sacred + GWM + Bless + Adv. (+12 twice): 84%

Taking a look at these numbers, you can say that “-5 to hit” and “advantage” pretty much cancel each other out. If you put Sacred Weapon or Bless on top of that, the chances of hit become even higher than normal while getting +10 damage per hit.

Whether Sacred Weapon and Darkness cancel each other or not depends on the rulings of the DM, but even if the DM says they don’t work together, all you have to do is use Greater Invisibility. Darkness is always there as a much more “cheap” option, but it can possibly hinder your friends and thus requires caution to use.

Of course, Darkness is better for when you’re attacking a Caster, though (blinding works amazing on Casters).

When using GWM builds, make sure to be careful of monsters that have Truesight and Blindsight. Neither Darkness nor Greater Invisibility will work on them, so you need to use spells like Hold Monster to gain advantage on attacks against them. You could say dragons are the worst foes of GWM Sorcadins in that regard, since they have high AC and blindsight on top of the ever-so-annoying Legendary Resistance, but at least you can Smite against boss monsters like them, and the breath weapon becomes a bit better with Aura of Protection.

Gastronomie

2016-10-05, 10:10 AM

Epilogue

http://i.imgur.com/J66M0F7.gif
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

"I am the bone of my sword.
Steel is my body, and fire is my blood.
I have created over a thousand blades.
Unknown to Death.
Nor known to Life.
Have withstood pain to create many weapons.
Yet, those hands will never hold anything.
So as I pray, -Unlimited Blade Works."
-Fate/Stay Night

So, we’ve got through everything the Sorcadin has to offer. The Pros and cons (or rather, the things to look out for), whether to go DEX or not, what races are good for them, what good builds exist, evaluation of the spells (though Paladin is left to the other guides since not much is to be added there), and lots of ideas for combos scattered here and there.

Though this guide still lacks a bit of information about DEX builds (if you have any experience, please do tell me), I think I’ve built something that can help people with no experience multiclassing create the super-powerful and super-fun gish build that is Paladin/Sorcerer. Perhaps it’s become a bit too long as a side effect of me trying to explain everything, so a bit sorry on that. I tried color-coding and bolding so that even with skimming over, you can get a good grasp of what’s written in here, but if you feel it’s too long I may edit it, or post a shorter version.

This guide is still far from truly finished. In fact a guide can never hope to become truly finished, in my humble opinion. I have played multiple builds of Paladin/Sorcerer, but the combinations are truly endless, and I have only delved into a tiny part of what’s actually possible. Perhaps the spells I rated to be bad here can become the key parts of amazing combos, or perhaps I rated something to be too high, or perhaps I’m missing something really big. We’re all human, and we all have our limits. It happens. However, when it happens, it would be really, really helpful if you could point it out - what’s called in English “constructive criticism” - and help me make this guide even better.

It would have been impossible for me to create this guide on my own - I’ve already been helped by dozens of other forum members who gave me their ideas, time and effort to proofread, comment, advice, and point out the mistakes they found (again, thanks to all of them!). If you can add to the cooperation, I would really love it. (Apart from pointing out mistakes, you can also post your own combination ideas that you think are interesting and/or good. There’s probably dozens I’ve missed.)

If I’ve been able to help anyone who wants to build a Paladin/Sorcerer, or if you’ve felt like building a Paladin/Sorcerer after reading this guide, that would be my greatest pleasure.

I think that’s about it for now. Thank you for reading, and happy gaming.

http://pa1.narvii.com/5863/ca935d307462ee5646b748e96b69b14e0efa597c_hq.gif
Off to battle!
(Image Copyright Ufotable)

Klorox

2016-10-05, 11:03 AM

Great job with this guide! Lots of information here!

You suggest starting stats of 16/8/16/8/8/16. This looks to be a variant human, but do you recommend the heavy armor mastery feat or resilient constitution (or something else)?

I can see the benefits of both.

Your next feat needs to be warcaster, IMHO, and boosting CHA above STR or DEX is the optimal choice. Do you agree?

deathadder99

2016-10-05, 11:04 AM

CaptAl

2016-10-05, 12:04 PM

I'm just wondering why you rate PAM so low. I find it's generally the best choice for single class paladins, as you get the extra chance to smite. Is it merely because with Advantage, GWM maths out better and that you're ASI/Feat starved anyway?

Otherwise it's a good and well thought out read.

It's because Sorcerer gets Quicken spell which takes up your bonus action. PAM uses your bonus action as well. It's not that PAM is bad, but why whack a mole with the butt end of your stick when you can quicken a Booming Blade/GFB? It just adds more competition for action economy.

Specter

2016-10-05, 12:06 PM

Haven't read through everything, but Blade Mastery lets you add +1 as a reaction, not bonus action.

Byke

2016-10-05, 02:48 PM

Some much information have to re-red it to absorb it all Just wanted to post GREAT JOB!

Mongobear

2016-10-05, 02:59 PM

I love this solely because you used so many references to F/SN and FMA.

Fflewddur Fflam

2016-10-05, 03:15 PM

No love for a Paladin 6/Champion 4/Sorcerer 10? I would figure the improved critical on the Champion would help for those nova smite bursts.

Finieous

2016-10-05, 03:16 PM

It's because Sorcerer gets Quicken spell which takes up your bonus action. PAM uses your bonus action as well. It's not that PAM is bad, but why whack a mole with the butt end of your stick when you can quicken a Booming Blade/GFB? It just adds more competition for action economy.

Because the latter is another limited resource, of which you have many, as you note in the guide, and the former is something you can do all day? Having multiple options for bonus actions and reactions is how you optimize action economy. It's a feature, not a bug. We can both quicken booming blade; when we're not doing that, I can use my bonus action for an attack to which IDS applies.

PAM isn't the best choice for all builds, but it's clearly as good a choice as the other options IMO.

Mongobear

2016-10-05, 03:18 PM

One question about Ability Scores: If given the choice of Standard Point Buy from the PHB or using the Standard Array (15/14/13/12/10/8) which would you take? I am sort of against having so many stats below 10 doing the triple 15 point buy methods you mention, at least up until Aura of Protection kicks in, which could take anywhere from 6-12 levels depending on how you level up.

If you were starting a "Birthblade" at 1st level tommorow, would you do your Point Buy array of 15 8 15 8 8 15 (+Racial/Feat mods) or would you use the Standard Array?

Spiritchaser

2016-10-05, 03:27 PM

I'm just wondering why you rate PAM so low. I find it's generally the best choice for single class paladins, as you get the extra chance to smite. Is it merely because with Advantage, GWM maths out better and that you're ASI/Feat starved anyway?

Otherwise it's a good and well thought out read.

I would assume it's because your bonus action is spoken for by either a quickened spell or a quickened melee cantrip

Spiritchaser

2016-10-05, 03:32 PM

I'm going to have to read this again to digest it, but thanks for taking the time to write this.

I'd love to see at least a mention of Paladin 12/sorcerer 8

Sure it's different but its also absurdly strong

deathadder99

2016-10-05, 04:00 PM

Because the latter is another limited resource, of which you have many, as you note in the guide, and the former is something you can do all day? Having multiple options for bonus actions and reactions is how you optimize action economy. It's a feature, not a bug. We can both quicken booming blade; when we're not doing that, I can use my bonus action for an attack to which IDS applies.

PAM isn't the best choice for all builds, but it's clearly as good a choice as the other options IMO.

Yes, these were my thoughts. I don't think it's to do with bonus action competition, Quicken is not something you'll do every round, and getting an extra attack in order to hit smites is fantastic. Maaaybe you can get away with saying you have far too much to do with your bonus action, with the Devotion channel divinity and/or if you dip 1 in Lock, then OK. Still, there aren't too many reactions you have access to unless you're an Oathbreaker (in which case PAM is probably superior to GWM), and you'll still be able to use the 1d4.

My suspicion is that the -5/+10 works out as better damage with all things considered, but I'd like to hear Gastronomie's rationale for the black rating. Perhaps it's also to do with feat starvation. If you rolled godly stats, I can see a build with PAM, GWM, War Caster and Spell Sniper be utterly broken, but you'd never get that in a normal game as you'd need to have at least one or two 18s at character creation.

Mikey P

2016-10-05, 04:09 PM

Finieous

2016-10-05, 05:38 PM

Great Job! You clearly have been putting a great deal of effort into this for some time.

I'm afraid you'll have to put me in the "Sorcadin" camp. I am sorry, but "Birthblade" really just doesn't work for me.

Agreed on all counts. As for the name: I'm not sure why it needs one, but "birthblade" sounds like some horrifying implement of medieval midwifery.

Quintessence

2016-10-05, 07:06 PM

Excellent guide, loved reading every second of it and was very well written and informative.

Thoughts on subtle spell for utility?

CaptainSarathai

2016-10-05, 11:35 PM

Awesome guide, and short of nthe devs giving us a genuine Gish class or home brewing something like Swordmage, this is probably as good as we'll get if you want the character most people assume they get with a "gish" (a sort of, "sword in one hand, spells in the other," damage stallion)

Agreed on all counts. As for the name: I'm not sure why it needs one, but "birthblade" sounds like some horrifying implement of medieval midwifery.

Yeah, I had the same response to the name - kinda skeeved me. I do love Paladork though, since playing the class requires a lot more depth than most others (meaning you spend more time looking at books, optimizing math, reading this guide - NERRRRD) and because the Paladin is giving up his awesome "being a knight and rescuing damsels" to "go practice his witchcraft and wizardry - NERRRRD!!!"

Maybe "Sword-Born" or "Spell-Sworn" would work better?
Kinda interested into home-brewing this so that it "comes online" faster as a single class. Hmm...

Mikey P

2016-10-05, 11:46 PM

Maybe "Sword-Born" or "Spell-Sworn" would work better?
Kinda interested into home-brewing this so that it "comes online" faster as a single class. Hmm...

"Spell Sword" as a play on "Sell-sword" has a ring to it...

Quintessence

2016-10-05, 11:58 PM

"Spell Sword" as a play on "Sell-sword" has a ring to it...

That might have some bad blood because of the awful 3.5 prestige class with the same name...

Fable Wright

2016-10-06, 04:31 AM

Hm. Not sure if I agree with Warlock dip as red option for Greatsworders. That's another two Shields or Smites per short rest, access to Hex for when your daily resources are spent, and access to Armor of Agathys, which is one of the best spells your frontline squishy could ask for. More HP? Sure! Long duration for pre-buffing? No problem! Solid damage without using an action or reaction in combat? Sold. At level 13, your level 5 Fireball is going to be dealing an average of 42 damage or so before Reflex saves, which is fairly decent. Your regular attacks, using the same action, will also be doing around 40 damage as well if both hit. Your Armor of Agathys is going to be dealing at least 50 damage against anything short of a Storm Giant, closer to 100 against Vampires and lowered-leveled foes, and effectively heals you for nearly your full Lay on Hands damage, and doesn't take an action for any of it. Sure, it's less good against giants, dragons, and AoE attacks, but it's a very nice ace in the hole when you know what's coming.

Klorox

2016-10-06, 04:37 AM

CaptainSarathai

2016-10-06, 04:41 AM

Also at 13, a hexed-up Agonizing Eldritch Blast is throwing 3D10+3*Cha+3D6 for 42 damage.
I actually think that Warlock is on-par enough with Sorcerer that it should actually be considered. If not through the full guide, then at least in a single section on its own. The only reason you'd want Sorc is for the Metamagic, which the guide points out, pure Pallocks dont get and feel more like an EK as a result. But Pally6|Sorc3|Lock11 wouldn't be bad.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-06, 06:17 AM

I don't think you can cast shield as a warlock spell, can you?

Slots are slots.
If you know a spell and have a slot, you can cast that spell from that slot.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-06, 08:24 AM

Great handbook!

As to the name, "birthblade" is not going to catch on. Just live with Sorcadin or Paladorc, at least people know what they are.

If I were to make a suggestion, I would add some discussion about what to do during the early levels, both in what order to take what, as well as what to do before certain things come online (as an example, spells to memorize and casting vs. smiting decisions to make until you can pick up war caster). One of the biggest challenges of multiclassing is surviving levels 1-4 while you are slowly getting both classes up and running.

WickerNipple

2016-10-06, 09:34 AM

Great guide!

A quick quibble: Oath of the Crown's Turn the Tide requires the targets to be able to hear you -- thus doesn't work on unconscious allies.

Klorox

2016-10-06, 10:24 AM

Slots are slots.
If you know a spell and have a slot, you can cast that spell from that slot.

I thought warlocks kept their slots separate from other casters, or is that just for multiclass calculations?

lunaticfringe

2016-10-06, 10:31 AM

Lock Slots are separate because you get them back after a short rest. You can use them to cast any spell you know or have prepared.

Edit: Not any spell. Just spells of a level equal to or lower than the Level of the Warlock slot in question.

Falcon X

2016-10-06, 10:52 AM

A possible build idea. Is it viable?
Here is my current Paladin setup. I'm currently considering going Sorcerer (Longsword track) up to level 20, but could use advise/critique.

Human (Variant)
Rogue 1/Paladin (Crown) 4
Feats: Mage Slayer, Shield Master
Fighting Style: Sword and Board/Protection
Expertise: Athletics and persuasion
Rolled high for stats (+4 STR, +3 CHA, +3CON, +2DEX, etc.)

A grappling master and a mage-destroyer already, he can pretty well handle himself in any 1-on-1 fight. With shield master, mage slayer, and Dex save proficiency, he can dodge many attack spells and save well against other so long as he is standing next to the enemy.

The question is, is this build set up to start a BirthBlade build? It's not too late to switch out my Shield Master for War Caster, but I'd much rather wait to pick it up at level 9 and keep the great things Shield Master brought me.

Pros I can see:
- Fantastic saves against mages and striking back against them. Sorcerer spells can even ensure that I will be standing next to the enemy to fully utilize Mage Slayer.
- Grappling master can only help in such a build. More quick death options is more quick death options.
- Still a beast once the expendable resources run out.
- Crown Paladin, as always, makes sure I fight who I want, when I want.

Flaws I can already see:
- No Heavy Armor
- Might spend a few sorcerer levels with no Mage Slayer feat
- Loose a sorcerer level to Rogue

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-06, 11:08 AM

I thought warlocks kept their slots separate from other casters, or is that just for multiclass calculations?

Yes, and now I'll keep typing because stupid 10 character minimum

Gastronomie

2016-10-06, 11:13 AM

Thanks for all the feedback~~!

I will attend to the comments, dividing them into sections:

Great job with this guide! Lots of information here!

You suggest starting stats of 16/8/16/8/8/16. This looks to be a variant human, but do you recommend the heavy armor mastery feat or resilient constitution (or something else)?

I can see the benefits of both.

Your next feat needs to be warcaster, IMHO, and boosting CHA above STR or DEX is the optimal choice. Do you agree?Thanks~. I think that if you’re going Paladin 6 later, Resilient can get redundant, but if you’re going Paladin 2, you should get it on top of War Caster.

For Longsword builds I think CHA > STR, while for Greatsword builds it’s STR > CHA. I don’t know much for DEX, but I think they might want to prioritize it over CHA because it also increases your low AC.

One question about Ability Scores: If given the choice of Standard Point Buy from the PHB or using the Standard Array (15/14/13/12/10/8) which would you take? I am sort of against having so many stats below 10 doing the triple 15 point buy methods you mention, at least up until Aura of Protection kicks in, which could take anywhere from 6-12 levels depending on how you level up.

If you were starting a "Birthblade" at 1st level tommorow, would you do your Point Buy array of 15 8 15 8 8 15 (+Racial/Feat mods) or would you use the Standard Array?I don’t think the Standard Array has an advantage over Standard Point Buy, since the Standard Array becomes 27 points in Point-Buy... Standard Array is basically one example of what you can create using Point-Buy. But you want to maximize STR, CON, and CHA.
I would not mind getting an 8 in DEX and INT, DEX because the saves only increase damage (you still take half either way), and INT because almost no saves relate to it. However, getting WIS 10 might seem a bit fearful for many people, due to WIS saves being so devastating. In which case, I recommend going Half-Elf. That way you can buy 15-8-15-8-10-14, which becomes 16-8-16-8-10-16, meaning you can get 16 in all 3 important ability scores without making your WIS 10.

I'm just wondering why you rate PAM so low. I find it's generally the best choice for single class paladins, as you get the extra chance to smite. Is it merely because with Advantage, GWM maths out better and that you're ASI/Feat starved anyway?

Otherwise it's a good and well thought out read.Well, perhaps Black was too low. I may raise it to Blue, but I think you need to be an Oathbreaker to maximize power (this is simular to how Greatsword builds rely on Shadow Sorcerer to be good). Aura of Hate works wonders with PAM. And in that build, Paladin 11 probably becomes a pretty solid option, with Improved Divine Smite. This also connects to:

I'm going to have to read this again to digest it, but thanks for taking the time to write this. I'd love to see at least a mention of Paladin 12/sorcerer 8. Sure it's different but its also absurdly strongThis does seem interesting as a Paladin-centered build, so I might delve into it when I have time. Thanks for the input!

My suspicion is that the -5/+10 works out as better damage with all things considered, but I'd like to hear Gastronomie's rationale for the black rating. Perhaps it's also to do with feat starvation. If you rolled godly stats, I can see a build with PAM, GWM, War Caster and Spell Sniper be utterly broken, but you'd never get that in a normal game as you'd need to have at least one or two 18s at character creation.Well, a bit of explaining the main reason I made it Black: it’s because PAM work best with Oathbreakers, but Oathbreakers get a lot of solid good abilities till the highest levels (Supernatural Resistance, which makes you an over-the-top amazing tank, and the uber-powerful Dread Lord - there’s also a boost in the Aura effects at level 17), meaning going Pure Oathbreaker is an actually pretty damn good option for those who wish to go PAM.

Of course, Paladin/Sorc PAM builds will be fun to use as well, but still. Well, I’m starting to think Black was a bit too harsh, but I still think PAM builds might find Pure Oathbreaker more alluring...

That godly stat thing does look godly. When I have time I might make a sample build for when you rolled godly stats... Lol

Haven't read through everything, but Blade Mastery lets you add +1 as a reaction, not bonus action.*Facepalm* God, how did I mistake that? Real thanks, and changed. (Most groups I play with IRL doesn’t speak English, so when I mistranslate or mistake something, no one can point it out...)

Great guide!

A quick quibble: Oath of the Crown's Turn the Tide requires the targets to be able to hear you -- thus doesn't work on unconscious allies.What? I don’t think that’s... *Checks* ...You’re right. I actually never realized that, I’ve used it to help my friends get awake multiple times and the DM never said anything. I learned something new. Thanks for helping both me and this guide.

No love for a Paladin 6/Champion 4/Sorcerer 10? I would figure the improved critical on the Champion would help for those nova smite bursts.Seems interesting. Well, right now my builds have Quickened Hold Monster as means for when you want to crit like mad, but rolling crits with your own hands is probably more fun to play. I may delve into this further on - though I don’t think it’s the most optimized option ever, it does certainly look like a fun build to play. I love fun builds.

Thoughts on subtle spell for utility?I think it highly depends on the campaign, making it near impossible to rate. If you’re in Hack-and-Slash it will mean next to nothing, but in a city politics campaign it will be beyond amazing. The main problem is how WotC designed the Sorcerer to have far too little Metamagic options to choose from... I mean, honestly, they should have given 3 at level 3, 4 at level 10, 5 at level 14, and all options at level 20, or something like that.

Quickened is near-mandatory, while Careful, Twinned, and Heightened are amazing in combat as well (they also have out-of-combat usage when combined with Suggestion and stuff).

I'm afraid you'll have to put me in the "Sorcadin" camp. I am sorry, but "Birthblade" really just doesn't work for me.
Agreed on all counts. As for the name: I'm not sure why it needs one, but "birthblade" sounds like some horrifying implement of medieval midwifery.
Yeah, I had the same response to the name - kinda skeeved me. I do love Paladork though, since playing the class requires a lot more depth than most others (meaning you spend more time looking at books, optimizing math, reading this guide - NERRRRD) and because the Paladin is giving up his awesome "being a knight and rescuing damsels" to "go practice his witchcraft and wizardry - NERRRRD!!!"

Maybe "Sword-Born" or "Spell-Sworn" would work better?
As to the name, "birthblade" is not going to catch on. Just live with Sorcadin or Paladorc, at least people know what they are.NO THE NAME BIRTHBLADE IS REALLY COOL YOU GUYS ARE ALL STUPID FOR NOT LIKING IT Well, Birthblade is just a random name I thought up on the spot and kept on using. I have nothing really attached to it, so if you guys think there’s a better alternative I will gladly change it.

I tried to keep away from Paladorc and Sorcadin for reasons already mentioned in the guide, but “not going to catch on” does seem like a possible issue. Sadly, I think this issue will not be changed, even if I change the name to Spell-Sworn, or Sword-Born, or Spell-Blade (though all of them are cool suggestions as well). Perhaps I may simply go with Sorcadin?

What do you guys think? Should I replace everything with Sorcadin, or no? If multiple people say I should simply change everything to Sorcadin, I will use Word to edit them all at the same time.

Hm. Not sure if I agree with Warlock dip as red option for Greatsworders. That's another two Shields or Smites per short rest, access to Hex for when your daily resources are spent, and access to Armor of Agathys, which is one of the best spells your frontline squishy could ask for. More HP? Sure! Long duration for pre-buffing? No problem! Solid damage without using an action or reaction in combat? Sold. At level 13, your level 5 Fireball is going to be dealing an average of 42 damage or so before Reflex saves, which is fairly decent. Your regular attacks, using the same action, will also be doing around 40 damage as well if both hit. Your Armor of Agathys is going to be dealing at least 50 damage against anything short of a Storm Giant, closer to 100 against Vampires and lowered-leveled foes, and effectively heals you for nearly your full Lay on Hands damage, and doesn't take an action for any of it. Sure, it's less good against giants, dragons, and AoE attacks, but it's a very nice ace in the hole when you know what's coming.Yeah, you’re true, I should raise it. Armor of Agathys is without doubt one of the best scaling spells! Though I’m not sure if it’s okay to compare Fireball’s damage to that of Armor of Agathys (the whole point of Fireball is that you can damage multiple enemies at once with just one casting; you’re never gonna use it on a single target), it is true that Agathys can be a very good option for Paladin/Sorcs too. It is a bit anti-synergetic with Inspiring Leader and stuff though, so I should note that if you’re going to take either, you prolly shouldn’t take the other.

Also at 13, a hexed-up Agonizing Eldritch Blast is throwing 3D10+3*Cha+3D6 for 42 damage.
I actually think that Warlock is on-par enough with Sorcerer that it should actually be considered. If not through the full guide, then at least in a single section on its own. The only reason you'd want Sorc is for the Metamagic, which the guide points out, pure Pallocks dont get and feel more like an EK as a result. But Pally6|Sorc3|Lock11 wouldn't be bad.Though I doubt you will use concentration for Hex when there are so many other concentration options, you’re true that Eldritch Blast is a good ranged attack option. I haven’t played Pal/Sorc/Lock with emphasis on Lock before, so I don’t know how well it will go, but it does seem interesting. The only thing I’m afraid of is running out of Sorcery Points too easily... From that viewpoint, maybe you should go Lock 11 before Sorc 3? I dunno.
Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions. Getting ideas from lots of people really helps!

If I were to make a suggestion, I would add some discussion about what to do during the early levels, both in what order to take what, as well as what to do before certain things come online (as an example, spells to memorize and casting vs. smiting decisions to make until you can pick up war caster). One of the biggest challenges of multiclassing is surviving levels 1-4 while you are slowly getting both classes up and running.This is true, but at the same time, sadly, I am not an expert on this matter Well, most games I used Paladin/Sorcs in actually started at level 5 or higher, so the truth is that I do not know much about how to progress them at really early levels.

I will try thinking, but if I think on my own it will be theory-crafting, and probably not very accurate either. If anyone has experience, please lend me a hand! I will try in the meantime, but I have many things to do apart from this (including DM-ing two campaigns and experimenting with other Birthblade builds) so it may become a bit later.

The most important problem for low levels is the lack of War Caster IMO. If your DM is generous with minuscule rules, he might let you use a shield as the arcane focus of both Paladin and Sorcerer spells, or perhaps let you engrave a tattoo on your body that acts as an arcane focus, but if he’s really strict to RAW he may say you cannot cast spells while going S&B before you get War Caster. In which case, it becomes a possible option to go Greatsword just until you get War Caster, even if you plan on going S&B eventually.

Here is my current Paladin setup. I'm currently considering going Sorcerer (Longsword track) up to level 20, but could use advise/critique.

Human (Variant)
Rogue 1/Paladin (Crown) 4
Feats: Mage Slayer, Shield Master
Fighting Style: Sword and Board/Protection
Expertise: Athletics and persuasion
Rolled high for stats (+4 STR, +3 CHA, +3CON, +2DEX, etc.)

A grappling master and a mage-destroyer already, he can pretty well handle himself in any 1-on-1 fight. With shield master, mage slayer, and Dex save proficiency, he can dodge many attack spells and save well against other so long as he is standing next to the enemy.

The question is, is this build set up to start a BirthBlade build? It's not too late to switch out my Shield Master for War Caster, but I'd much rather wait to pick it up at level 9 and keep the great things Shield Master brought me.That's quite nice stats you've got there! I think you should get War Caster though, since otherwise, if you're going S&B, you will suffer from not being able to cast the Shield spell (unless your DM is a generous person) till you hit Sorcerer 4, which is quite some time. I don't think you will like that. Of course, if your DM is generous with spell components (I'm one of those people who simply don't care), you not need take War Caster until Sorcerer 4 (though it still will be strong).

War Caster also helps with spells like Bless, so I think it's nice to have for your Paladin era as well.

I think you should first get to Paladin 6, for Aura of Protection, and then go to Sorcerer. AoP is really good.

The changes listed in here - such as changing the rating of Warlock and PAM - cannot be done right now due to it being 1:20 AM midnight Japan time. I will do these either tomorrow (which I suspect I may be busy) or the day after.

Again, thanks for all the feedback! I appreciate all the comments - they really do help me make this better, and also help me level up as a player myself.

odigity

2016-10-06, 11:19 AM

I don't think you can cast shield as a warlock spell, can you?

Other people have responded to the slot differentiation issue, but Klorox might have instead meant to point out that Shield is on neither the Paladin's not Warlock's spell list, meaning a Paladin/Warlock still needs to dip Sorcerer to get it, which is starting to stretch the levels pretty thin.

A quick quibble: Oath of the Crown's Turn the Tide requires the targets to be able to hear you -- thus doesn't work on unconscious allies.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't notice it on my first read. That does limit it's awesome, though still better than most Paladin Channel Divinities (looking at you, Oath of Ancients).

Fable Wright

2016-10-06, 11:56 AM

I tried to keep away from Paladorc and Sorcadin for reasons already mentioned in the guide, but “not going to catch on” does seem like a possible issue. Sadly, I think this issue will not be changed, even if I change the name to Spell-Sworn, or Sword-Born, or Spell-Blade (though all of them are cool suggestions as well). Perhaps I may simply go with Sorcadin?

For historical purposes, Sorcadin would probably be better. In D&D 3.5e, the Paladin/Sorcerer gish was undoubtedly heavier on the Sorcerer side, and the name was used for years. Also, Paladorc just makes me think that your race choice is already locked into to half-orc. If you're going with a made-up name, Spell-Sworn would be the best of the provided options; if not, Sorcadin is probably better.

Yeah, you’re true, I should raise it. Armor of Agathys is without doubt one of the best scaling spells! Though I’m not sure if it’s okay to compare Fireball’s damage to that of Armor of Agathys (the whole point of Fireball is that you can damage multiple enemies at once with just one casting; you’re never gonna use it on a single target), it is true that Agathys can be a very good option for Paladin/Sorcs too. It is a bit anti-synergetic with Inspiring Leader and stuff though, so I should note that if you’re going to take either, you prolly shouldn’t take the other.

...Wait, there are builds that can fit in a feat slot for Inspiring Leader?

Though I doubt you will use concentration for Hex when there are so many other concentration options, you’re true that Eldritch Blast is a good ranged attack option. I haven’t played Pal/Sorc/Lock with emphasis on Lock before, so I don’t know how well it will go, but it does seem interesting. The only thing I’m afraid of is running out of Sorcery Points too easily... From that viewpoint, maybe you should go Lock 11 before Sorc 3? I dunno.

If I were to put together a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, I'd cap my Warlock to 4 at the very most, and probably stick with 1 level. Sorcerer levels cap your maximum number of sorcery points, so War 11/Sor 3 would waste the sorcery points they could otherwise get from breaking down their slots. I'd consider level 2 on a Greatsword Build for Devil's Sight if getting advantage is inconsistent for me and Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed. The third level would only be so that I don't have to burn a sorcerer spell known for Darkness, and to let it reset on a short rest. Level 4, obviously, would be for that ASI; we don't get nearly enough of those.

Still, it's usually best to cap it to 1 or maybe 2 levels.

Mikey P

2016-10-06, 12:43 PM

I'm playing a character who may be developing in reverse... we just reached 5th level, and I started with Undying Light Warlock-2, then switched to Favored Soul Sorerer-2... We just reached 5th and I'm getting my sweet sweet meta-magic...

I'm thinking of a couple of Paladin levels so I can Smite. (hopefully he'll wiggle the rules and let me have the heavy armor proficiency, he may rule I have to take a level of Pally before 5 to get away with it...)

I'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm guessing the second pool of low level spells will add up to a nice edge in Shield spells and Smite fuel.

Klorox

2016-10-06, 03:42 PM

Maybe add a section of optimal backgrounds?

CaptainSarathai

2016-10-06, 05:34 PM

If I were to put together a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, I'd cap my Warlock to 4 at the very most, and probably stick with 1 level. Sorcerer levels cap your maximum number of sorcery points, so War 11/Sor 3 would waste the sorcery points they could otherwise get from breaking down their slots. I'd consider level 2 on a Greatsword Build for Devil's Sight if getting advantage is inconsistent for me and Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed. The third level would only be so that I don't have to burn a sorcerer spell known for Darkness, and to let it reset on a short rest. Level 4, obviously, would be for that ASI; we don't get nearly enough of those.

I would almost definitely take them to at least L4 though, to keep up the ASI. They get 2nd level slots at Lv3. When Sorc gets Metamagic at Lv3, he has 3 Sorcery Points, aka a 2nd level spell.

I don't know how much you'd be relying on your Sorcery Points with even a pure Sorcadin. You only need 2SPs for Quickened spell, which seems like the cornerstone of the build (other than perhaps the Sorc spell list). Heightened Spell is still just 3SPs. The most pricey option is Twinned Spell, and at Sorc3 you are capped at only twinning 3rd level spells.

By focusing on Warlock over Sorcerer, you get fewer slots, but they renew more often. One of the stated disadvantages of the Sorcadin is that they "burn hot" on resources, using their low level slots for Sorcery Points, and your high-level slots for Smites and actual casting. Warlocks can do that, albeit at reduced spell-level, but as long as your DM isn't stingy on Short Rests, you can do it more often and be less stingy yourself.

Unless your campaign goes to Lv20, you don't lose out much with multi-classing. Take every class to Lv4 and you only miss out on your last ASI and your 14th level ability, Capstone ability, and 9th level slots.

I will say that if you take Warlock beyond Lv4, you need to go BladeLock and go all the way to Bladelock12 for LifeDrinker, and go a 4/4 split on Sorc and Paladin. I think this build would more closely rival the Paladin11 build. LifeDrinker offsets Improved Divine Smite. You still get the extra attack. You're losing out on the higher level slots from Sorcerer, Wings from Drag Sorc, and Aura from Pally6, so I obviously wouldn't call it SkyBlue. And considering how much damage you can rock with Quickened Eldritch Blast and Crossbow Expert from straight SorLock, I'm not sure how much the Paladin levels are worth - which kind of defeats the purpose of the guide.

(hopefully he'll wiggle the rules and let me have the heavy armor proficiency, he may rule I have to take a level of Pally before 5 to get away with it...)

I'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm guessing the second pool of low level spells will add up to a nice edge in Shield spells and Smite fuel.
As a DM I usually allow players to multiclass a level in something and swap their skills and proficiencies and saves around as if they'd started at that level. It comes from my own experience with all of the classes which prefer to take their first level out of class (usually in Fighter). It's silly to say, "Hi guys, I'm gonna play a Warlock! But not until 2nd level..."

Just remember that high level spells make good Smite fuel as well. Extra D8 per level after 1st. That's one thing I like about going into high levels of Warlock with Paladin levels - you get fewer and lower level slots over-all, but the slots you do get, are all at their max level.

Draco4472

2016-10-06, 06:32 PM

I was unaware GFB couldn't be twinned. Why is this the case?

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-06, 06:51 PM

I was unaware GFB couldn't be twinned. Why is this the case?

It has two targets, the target of the weapon attack and the target the fire jumps to, so it is ineligible for Twinning.

MeeposFire

2016-10-07, 12:41 AM

That might have some bad blood because of the awful 3.5 prestige class with the same name...

Hey it was good for one level. NO lost spell progression at level 1 made it good for one level assuming you already met the prerequisites.

Fuzzy Logic

2016-10-07, 01:06 AM

I would keep the name birthblade or swap it to sorcadin. I doubt a slightly annoying name would be enough to turn anyone off reading the guide. In advice as to how to play them at lower levels, I have always played them as paladin to level 6, then started working on my sorcerer levels. Has worked for me so far!

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-07, 01:25 AM

Mongobear

2016-10-07, 01:36 AM

Imo, there should be multiple names based on your level breakdowns based on the multiclassing.

"Sorcadin" to me, sounds like something with more Sorc levels than Paladin, which should be the default name for a majority of the builds.

"Paladorc" sounds like the builds with more Paladin levels, likely usable for the builds that go for IDS + PAM or other similar shennanigans which require a much heavier investment into Paladin.

"Birthblade" sounds like something that should be used more for a Sorcerer/Bladelock multi-class. Perhaps it could work for a sub-section of this guide focused on Triple-Classing with stuff like Warlock 3/Paladin 3/Sorcerer 14 type builds?

Spell-Blade, Spell-Sword, Sword-Born, etc could all be used as alternatives, but stuff like Spell Sword and Spell Blade seems more fitting for an Eldritch Knight type character, which granted, we are very similar to, but in a different way.

CaptainSarathai

2016-10-07, 01:57 AM

I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.
Don't get me wrong, Cha to saves is nice, but to get it you're giving up:
*4 sorcery points
*your 8th level spell known
*your 9th level spell known
*one metamagic known
*one subclass feature
*learning your sorc spells 6 levels later instead of 2 levels later

And while the SCAG cantrips are almost as good as extra attack, if you go FvS you can still get extra attack on top of it.
I personally feel that the cost is too steep, and that pal6 is almost a trap.

You're forgetting Smite. 2 attacks means double the opportunity to Smite, and means double the chance to Crit and add massive Smite damage.
Losing all that stuff isn't that bad "off paper" - he mentions many times in the guide that most characters/campaigns won't get to 20th level. Furthermore, what I gathered from reading the guide, and what I have seen in my own experience, is that your high-level slots are mainly for fuelling Smite, Sorcery Points, and improving lower level spells.

Sorcerers can do some pretty epic stuff at the higher levels, but Wizards can too, and usually do it better anyway if you want to go single-class caster. There are some classes that make excellently powerful single-class characters at high level, and others that are either so front loaded that a dip is perfect, or that just lose steam higher in the progression and it makes sense to dip out. Those classes are ripe for Multi-classing. You can see it in the way that most people just dip in/out of particular classes.

What makes the Sorcadin so good, is that Paladins are one of those "dip-out" classes, and Sorcerers are slightly front-loaded (you mostly go Sorc for Metamagic and Bloodline, which you get at 3). The fact that Sorcs are full-casters is the reason that most people stay with them. Even builds that are mostly Sorcerer, still seem to consider themselves to be whatever they started as. "Sorcerer helps Paladin," and "Sorcerer helps Warlock." Sorcerer is the only class that not only does this often, but also never seems to get outside help. Dipping into X-Class doesn't "help Sorcerers" to do their job better. If you're a Sorcerer and want to do your job better, reroll as Wizard. Warlock is very nearly the same, but there are viable builds where Warlock is the primary level and primary skill-set, but they dip just a few levels in Fighter/Paladin or Cleric for Armor, or Rogue for sneaky damage goodies.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-07, 06:57 AM

Hey it was good for one level. NO lost spell progression at level 1 made it good for one level assuming you already met the prerequisites.

It also, frankly, was conceptually an appropriate gish PrC. WotC overestimated how valuable getting casting-in-armor was (particularly in a game where +x twilight mithral shirts and shields were cheap) and underestimated the opportunity cost of giving up a spellcaster level.

I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.

Pal 6 is one more than Pal 5, and extra attack is absolutely vital for a specific character concept. This again goes back to the question of what type of character you are building. I think it's awesome that Paladins and Sorcerers synergize so well that we can be discussing the merits of P2S18, P4S16, P6S14, P12S8 (or my fav. P8S12). It's a vast shift from 3e where there was one or two obvious sorcadin builds, and everything else was clearly inferior.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-07, 08:08 AM

Both of those posts are all well and good, but neither of them adress the point I was making.
If you want extra attack, you go FvS. Now you still have extra attack.
And now you are going pal6, costing you four levels of sorcerous goodies, and basically only gain Cha+saves.
In my opinion, that cost is WAY too high, so all the focus in this guide on pal6 is overinflated.

Unless you're playing in what amounts to an AL game, or unless you plan on focusing more on Paladin levels than Sorcerer, pal6 is a trap.
And even if you are playing in what amounts to an AL game, with the addition of the SCAG cantrips extra attack is far less important than it was, so pal6 is still arguably a trap.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-07, 09:02 AM

Both of those posts are all well and good, but neither of them adress the point I was making. If you want extra attack, you go FvS. Now you still have extra attack.

I do not see how they are not addressing the point that you made. Extra attack is only less useful in certain builds. (also, as an aside, only in SCAG supported games). FvS also comes out of a potentially DM-unsupported supplemental source (plus it means that you aren't picking up the other sorcerous origin, which might be part of your build concept). Further, Going P2(FvS)S18 means that you get your first ASI at level 6 and extra attack at level 8. If you're actually playing through levels 1-8, that delay can be significant.

And now you are going pal6, costing you four levels of sorcerous goodies, and basically only gain Cha+saves.
In my opinion, that cost is WAY too high, so all the focus in this guide on pal6 is overinflated.

Sorry that this handbook for discussing all the potential options for playing a sorcerer-paladin hybrid focuses too much on build options that you find disfavorable. If you have additional discussion about optimal ways to make a P2S18, and the OP adds it, will that satisfy you, or do you actively want discussion of P6 builds removed?

Unless you're playing in what amounts to an AL game, or unless you plan on focusing more on Paladin levels than Sorcerer, pal6 is a trap. And even if you are playing in what amounts to an AL game, with the addition of the SCAG cantrips extra attack is far less important than it was, so pal6 is still arguably a trap.

Aside: I'm not sure I know what an AL game is. Can you clarify?Emphasis on the arguably. Either way, you say it's a trap. That's fine. So what? Some people will want to play it. Others won't. You've expressed an opinion on the matter. The end.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-07, 09:11 AM

Sorry that this handbook for discussing all the potential options for playing a sorcerer-paladin hybrid focuses too much on build options that you find disfavorable. If you have additional discussion about optimal ways to make a P2S18, and the OP adds it, will that satisfy you, or do you actively want discussion of P6 builds removed?
My complaint is that this is supposedly a guide on multiclassing Paladin and Sorcerer, and almost All of it entails and assumes Paladin 6.
Thats a huge glaring issue with what is supposed to be a "guide" for multiclassing.

This shouldn't be called a guide for this multiclass without delving into detail about other breakpoints. It hardly does that at all.
This should be called "The Guide to multiclass pal6/sorc14, with minimal comments on other Sorcadin multiclass builds."

You've expressed an opinion on the matter. The end.
Nice. Glad to see you're willing to have a discussion about things. Welcome to the Playground.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-07, 09:24 AM

My complaint is that this is supposedly a guide on multiclassing Paladin and Sorcerer, and almost All of it entails and assumes Paladin 6.
Thats a huge glaring issue with what is supposed to be a "guide" for multiclassing.

Then don't complain about the inclusion of Pal6 material, suggest material for Pal2.

Nice. Glad to see you're willing to have a discussion about things. Welcome to the Playground.

You're right. My phrasing deserved that response. I meant "the end?" not "the end." and either way it wasn't good communication. What I should have said, was more along the lines of 'do you have something to add other than you dislike x?'

However, I wouldn't get on a high horse about supposed cutting off of discussion right after complaining about a guide because it includes discussion of a build choice you dis-prefer.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-07, 09:39 AM

Then don't complain about the inclusion of Pal6 material, suggest material for Pal2.

You're right. My phrasing deserved that response. I meant "the end?" not "the end." and either way it wasn't good communication. What I should have said, was more along the lines of 'do you have something to add other than you dislike x?'

However, I wouldn't get on a high horse about supposed cutting off of discussion right after complaining about a guide because it includes discussion of a build choice you dis-prefer.

Dude, that's exactly what I've done. Requesting that this "guide" for multiclassing Sorcadin not focus almost solely on pal6/sorc14.
It needs more details on p2/s18, p3/s17, p7/s13, p8/s12, p9/s11, p12/s8, p16/s4, etc.
Until then, it isn't what it claims to be. Not even close.

I think maybe you're the one that should get off your high horse, as you put it.

Klorox

2016-10-07, 09:43 AM

I'm not going to call paladin 6 a trap, because I think CHA to saves is an amazing ability. That being said, I really like the idea of favored soul sorcerer to get extra attack eventually, while not slowing down sorcerer one bit.

I'm really liking the idea of the trickery favored soul sorcadin (2/X), and going DEX based to cover some cool skills and stuff. You're pretty much locked into half elf as your race (13/16/14/8/9/16), but it sounds fun. The favored soul fits so well thematically with the paladin class.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-07, 09:45 AM

I'm really liking the idea of the trickery favored soul sorcadin (2/X), and going DEX based to cover some cool skills and stuff. You're pretty much locked into half elf as your race (13/16/14/8/9/16), but it sounds fun. The favored soul fits so well thematically with the paladin class.

Yeah, that was the one I suggested to you in another thread. It's an absolute blast to play, and full of flavor. Mine was a Priestess of Tymora.

Edit
And all the gifs keep crashing the browser on my tablet. Too much.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-07, 10:35 AM

Dude, that's exactly what I've done. Requesting that this "guide" for multiclassing Sorcadin not focus almost solely on pal6/sorc14.
It needs more details on p2/s18, p3/s17, p7/s13, p8/s12, p9/s11, p12/s8, p16/s4, etc.
Until then, it isn't what it claims to be. Not even close.

I think maybe you're the one that should get off your high horse, as you put it.

I think we're probably at an impasse at who thinks who needs to what, and well past the point of convincing the other. I don't think that's what you've done, but I don't think we're going to agree.

If you're still at the point of being receptive to honest advice, they way I would have said it would be, "this handbook has lots of advice for Paladin6/Sorcerer14 builds, but needs to be fleshed out for other mixtures. I personally think going all the way to 6 in Pal isn't worth it, given that [something about FvS extra attack and SCAG cantrips] and prefer a Pal2 S18, here are my thoughts..." And not on calling Pal6 a trap. Take or leave it as you will. I've no interest in creating drama.

I'm not going to call paladin 6 a trap, because I think CHA to saves is an amazing ability. That being said, I really like the idea of favored soul sorcerer to get extra attack eventually, while not slowing down sorcerer one bit.

It depends on what I'm trying to do. There's two ways I think of Gishes as-- a warrior who enhances their combat with spells, or a character who can switch hit between spells and combat. For that later, you really need not to slow down your spell advancement any more than you can. For the former, the +cha to saves really helps.

Klorox

2016-10-07, 11:59 AM

Yeah, that was the one I suggested to you in another thread. It's an absolute blast to play, and full of flavor. Mine was a Priestess of Tymora.

Edit
And all the gifs keep crashing the browser on my tablet. Too much.

I don't think it's optimal, but it sure seems fun.

Klorox

2016-10-07, 12:04 PM

It depends on what I'm trying to do. There's two ways I think of Gishes as-- a warrior who enhances their combat with spells, or a character who can switch hit between spells and combat. For that later, you really need not to slow down your spell advancement any more than you can. For the former, the +cha to saves really helps.

I agree. The 2/X split is a personal preference. If I'm going to multiclass, I want my character to "look" like my end character concept will quickly.

In a vacuum, 6/X (7 if OotA) is more powerful. I'm also *personally* a fan of spellcasters. It makes sense that I'd like the more heavy spellcasting build. :smallsmile:

CaptainSarathai

2016-10-07, 02:02 PM

In a vacuum, 6/X (7 if OotA) is more powerful. I'm also *personally* a fan of spellcasters. It makes sense that I'd like the more heavy spellcasting build. :smallsmile:

Right, and the guide is talking optimization. If you want to diverge from the guide, nobody is going to show up your house and beat you up. If you dont want to super optimize your character, that's awesome, good for you.

The guide is just that; a guide. It's good to know what you could do, and it's good to know the optimal choices at each level so that you have an idea for what route to take up until you diverge, or understand that if you don't take those choices, you're likely handicapping yourself a bit.

I guess that perhaps he could have been more clear about why you don't go with a different split, but I'd have to reread the guide to make sure that he didn't already. I'm fairly certain that a lot of it has to do with Aura, and the fact that it not only aids you and makes you more "tanky" but also because it assists the party without costing resources. It's a seriously good ability for a 6th level ability

8wGremlin

2016-10-07, 02:48 PM

One thing that I like about some guides is that they take into account that not every game will ever reach level 20

I must admit I'm more interested in optimisation of builds sub 6th, and I find nearly every game I play in reaches this level, and any higher level games will have level 6 as one of its levels.

Whilst paladin 6th level is perfectly optimised, I for one am very keen for guides showing sub 10th level optimisation.

Klorox

2016-10-07, 02:49 PM

Right, and the guide is talking optimization. If you want to diverge from the guide, nobody is going to show up your house and beat you up. If you dont want to super optimize your character, that's awesome, good for you.

The guide is just that; a guide. It's good to know what you could do, and it's good to know the optimal choices at each level so that you have an idea for what route to take up until you diverge, or understand that if you don't take those choices, you're likely handicapping yourself a bit.

I guess that perhaps he could have been more clear about why you don't go with a different split, but I'd have to reread the guide to make sure that he didn't already. I'm fairly certain that a lot of it has to do with Aura, and the fact that it not only aids you and makes you more "tanky" but also because it assists the party without costing resources. It's a seriously good ability for a 6th level ability
Don't get me wrong: I think it might be the best level 6 ability in the game.

That being said, it's arguable, in a level 20 vacuum, to say that the pal2/sorcerer18 with his level 9 spells is better. It's a matter of preference.

Ghost Nappa

2016-10-07, 03:10 PM

Gastronomie

2016-10-07, 08:40 PM

For historical purposes, Sorcadin would probably be better. In D&D 3.5e, the Paladin/Sorcerer gish was undoubtedly heavier on the Sorcerer side, and the name was used for years. Also, Paladorc just makes me think that your race choice is already locked into to half-orc. If you're going with a made-up name, Spell-Sworn would be the best of the provided options; if not, Sorcadin is probably better.
I would keep the name birthblade or swap it to sorcadin. I doubt a slightly annoying name would be enough to turn anyone off reading the guide. In advice as to how to play them at lower levels, I have always played them as paladin to level 6, then started working on my sorcerer levels. Has worked for me so far!
Oh, and it's a Sorcadin, just like it has been for the last (almost) two decades.
Imo, there should be multiple names based on your level breakdowns based on the multiclassing.

"Sorcadin" to me, sounds like something with more Sorc levels than Paladin, which should be the default name for a majority of the builds.

"Paladorc" sounds like the builds with more Paladin levels, likely usable for the builds that go for IDS + PAM or other similar shennanigans which require a much heavier investment into Paladin.

"Birthblade" sounds like something that should be used more for a Sorcerer/Bladelock multi-class. Perhaps it could work for a sub-section of this guide focused on Triple-Classing with stuff like Warlock 3/Paladin 3/Sorcerer 14 type builds?

Spell-Blade, Spell-Sword, Sword-Born, etc could all be used as alternatives, but stuff like Spell Sword and Spell Blade seems more fitting for an Eldritch Knight type character, which granted, we are very similar to, but in a different way.
@OP: I thought the name "Birthblade" was cool, but there's no pleasing everyone.While Ghost Nappa said it's cool (thanks!), hearing all these voices, I’m starting to think Sorcadin is the better choice. It should be important that everybody gets what I'm saying with first glance.

I will soon change everything to Sorcadin, and proceed to state in the first post that discussing about what to call the gish will be dis-allowed and considered off-topic in the thread.

If I were to put together a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, I'd cap my Warlock to 4 at the very most, and probably stick with 1 level. Sorcerer levels cap your maximum number of sorcery points, so War 11/Sor 3 would waste the sorcery points they could otherwise get from breaking down their slots. I'd consider level 2 on a Greatsword Build for Devil's Sight if getting advantage is inconsistent for me and Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed . The third level would only be so that I don't have to burn a sorcerer spell known for Darkness, and to let it reset on a short rest. Level 4, obviously, would be for that ASI; we don't get nearly enough of those.

Still, it's usually best to cap it to 1 or maybe 2 levels.TBH I think that if Shadow Sorcerer was disallowed, it’s better to go Fighter 1 / Bladelock X than Paladin/Sorcerer for Greatsword builds (they make pretty darn powerful builds too). But that aside, yeah, it’s true that War/Sor 3 will not be able to gain all the possible benefits of Metamagic.

I would almost definitely take them to at least L4 though, to keep up the ASI. They get 2nd level slots at Lv3. When Sorc gets Metamagic at Lv3, he has 3 Sorcery Points, aka a 2nd level spell.

I don't know how much you'd be relying on your Sorcery Points with even a pure Sorcadin. You only need 2SPs for Quickened spell, which seems like the cornerstone of the build (other than perhaps the Sorc spell list). Heightened Spell is still just 3SPs. The most pricey option is Twinned Spell, and at Sorc3 you are capped at only twinning 3rd level spells.Well, Quickened Spell is great in how it increases your action economy, but at times Careful Spell can be even more important. It really depends on your build. But either way, one thing for sure, having a lot of it is a good thing.

By focusing on Warlock over Sorcerer, you get fewer slots, but they renew more often. One of the stated disadvantages of the Sorcadin is that they "burn hot" on resources, using their low level slots for Sorcery Points, and your high-level slots for Smites and actual casting. Warlocks can do that, albeit at reduced spell-level, but as long as your DM isn't stingy on Short Rests, you can do it more often and be less stingy yourself.Well, as explained in the Multiclassing section, this depends on the nature of your campaign. If you get more than 2 short rests per long rest, you can hurl more spells, but if you get only 1 or 2 short rests per long rest, Sorcerers have strictly better spellcasting.

Unless your campaign goes to Lv20, you don't lose out much with multi-classing. Take every class to Lv4 and you only miss out on your last ASI and your 14th level ability, Capstone ability, and 9th level slots.

I will say that if you take Warlock beyond Lv4, you need to go BladeLock and go all the way to Bladelock12 for LifeDrinker, and go a 4/4 split on Sorc and Paladin. I think this build would more closely rival the Paladin11 build. LifeDrinker offsets Improved Divine Smite. You still get the extra attack. You're losing out on the higher level slots from Sorcerer, Wings from Drag Sorc, and Aura from Pally6, so I obviously wouldn't call it SkyBlue. And considering how much damage you can rock with Quickened Eldritch Blast and Crossbow Expert from straight SorLock, I'm not sure how much the Paladin levels are worth - which kind of defeats the purpose of the guide.Well, if you want damage bonuses from CHA, Oathbreakers get it at level 7 via Aura of Hate, so I think it’ll be better to just go Oathbreaker 11 for 5+1d8 extra damage per hit (this potentially rivals the damage of a level 20 fighter with S&B). And if you’re going Bladelock 12, I think that it’s just better to go normal Bladelock... Bladelocks are a pretty cool class too. I think leveling up in so many classes will disperse your power and also create points where you don’t gain much fro, leveling up, which can be frustrating in actual gameplay. It does look fun, but to be honest I don’t think it really seems like something to put in a guide about Paladin/Sorcerer optimization. If anything it’s a variant of Bladelocks.

I'm playing a character who may be developing in reverse... we just reached 5th level, and I started with Undying Light Warlock-2, then switched to Favored Soul Sorerer-2... We just reached 5th and I'm getting my sweet sweet meta-magic...

I'm thinking of a couple of Paladin levels so I can Smite. (hopefully he'll wiggle the rules and let me have the heavy armor proficiency, he may rule I have to take a level of Pally before 5 to get away with it...)

I'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm guessing the second pool of low level spells will add up to a nice edge in Shield spells and Smite fuel.Does sound nice! I think you should probably go to Paladin 4 for War Caster before going into Paladin though.

The truth is that Paladin/Sorcerers are so powerful it’s difficult to mess them up. Creating as you like will probably still create something that’s quite strong and fun to play.

Maybe add a section of optimal backgrounds?Nyeh, sorry but I will not make this. This is because in a majority of the games I have played, all the characters have created original backgrounds, picking the two skills they think are most thematic and adding a random background feature from the background that seems the closest of the ones in the PHB.

I imagine only the most strict DMs will rule that you can use only the PHB backgrounds... I mean, like, it specifically says in the PHB that players can create original backgrounds. At least I have never played with such a strict DM. And I am also glad about it (I tend to be a rather Chaotic DM, and will probably feel frustrated when other DMs are too strict with rulings and stuff).

Besides, skills are not the Paladin/Sorcerer’s main thing. The only real thing I can say is that DEX builds should get stealth, but that’s sorta self-explanatory.

I think there is far too much emphasis placed on pal6 in this guide.
With the addition of the SCAG cantrips, extra attack is a lot less useful, so going to pal6 is basically just for Cha to saves.
Don't get me wrong, Cha to saves is nice, but to get it you're giving up:
*4 sorcery points
*your 8th level spell known
*your 9th level spell known
*one metamagic known
*one subclass feature
*learning your sorc spells 6 levels later instead of 2 levels later

And while the SCAG cantrips are almost as good as extra attack, if you go FvS you can still get extra attack on top of it.
I personally feel that the cost is too steep, and that pal6 is almost a trap.Saying Pal 6 is almost a trap is definitely an exaggeration IMO, but it may be true that I rated Paladin 2 to be too low. Well... It’s actually not that I think Paladin 2 is weak, it’s just that I think Aura of Protection is just much too amazing to pass. And all the people I created this guide with agreed that 6/14 was the best combination, so to be honest I didn’t think much deep into the other concepts. But you’re right in that I should have a section where I discuss the pros and cons of the various builds like 2/18, 3/17, 6/14, 7/13, 8/12, 9/11, 11/9, 12/8. I will create them later when I have time. As already mentioned, I am very busy right now - but there’s a reason why I reserved 3 extra posts.

...Wait, there are builds that can fit in a feat slot for Inspiring Leader?I personally think that it’s more beneficial than CON+2 or STR +2. This is a matter of preference though. Either way it’s after you max out CHA.

And all the gifs keep crashing the browser on my tablet. Too much.This is an obvious mistake on my part. I have not used tablets with much frequence, so I had the misconception that everyone watches these threads using computers. But if that is the case, I will soon create a second thread which has all the same material, except with no GIFs. Will that do?

One thing that I like about some guides is that they take into account that not every game will ever reach level 20

I must admit I'm more interested in optimisation of builds sub 6th, and I find nearly every game I play in reaches this level, and any higher level games will have level 6 as one of its levels.

Whilst paladin 6th level is perfectly optimised, I for one am very keen for guides showing sub 10th level optimisation.Thanks for the feedback! Shall I post more level 6~7 builds, then?

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-07, 09:01 PM

[spoiler=About gifs]This is an obvious mistake on my part. I have not used tablets with much frequence, so I had the misconception that everyone watches these threads using computers. But if that is the case, I will soon create a second thread which has all the same material, except with no GIFs. Will that do?

No need to change anything after the fact unless you really want to. Just thought I'd mention it, more for future reference. But it would make it easier on those of us who use tabs more often than PCs.

Honestly, I'd think it was too much of I were on my PC as well. Visual overload. But that's just a personal thing.

Klorox

2016-10-07, 09:41 PM

If you're concerned about the gifs, stick them in spoilers so people can choose to open them or not.

MeeposFire

2016-10-07, 09:51 PM

Personally I would just remove them. They do not serve any real purpose (at least for this guide since I do not think that the subject matter is so out there that people need a visual representation to get the creative juices going). There will be some who think some of the pictures are cool but I just don't see them being worth it if it causing people problems in seeing your work.

People are coming to see your actual content and writing. Pictures are nice to have but may be more trouble than they are worth if it keeps some users from using it..

Gastronomie

2016-10-07, 11:09 PM

If you're concerned about the gifs, stick them in spoilers so people can choose to open them or not.I think that even if you put them in spoilers, they still get counted in the capacity of tablets, regardless of you open them or not. The easiest solution will be to create another thread in which there are no GIFs.

Waazraath

2016-10-08, 02:18 PM

Pal 6 / Sorc 14 gets an almost always on bonus to all saves (which extends to allies), at-will flight, and still has Level 8 and Level 9 slots. It gets a base 21 AC with non-magical gear (which is competitive with the EK and the Barbarian), Shield, some minor healing abilities, and has more meat than the Sorcerer does by default. Does it lose things by not being Pal 20 or Sorc 20? Yes. But this isn't a build meant to do that.

While I do admit that there is merit in other MC levels like Pal 2 / Sorc 18, at that point, it's more of a Sorcerer build with some Paladin sprinkles and not exactly what this a "Birthblade" is. I do think there should be more discussion of different level splits, but there are some obvious issues of when to split.

As an example, Pal 12 / Sorc 8 doesn't get the 7th, 8th or 9th level slot, only knows up to 4th level spells, and only has two kinds of metamagic and only has 8 Sorcery Points. In exchange, their aura makes everyone immune to fear and they do 1d8 extra radiant damage on all melee attacks and have 12d10+ 8d6 + 20*CON HP. Is that trade-off worth it? The OP implies no, and I agree with that.

Pal 8 / Sorc 12 is missing the 9th Level slot. And in exchange for the immune to fright aura, and bonus 1d8 radiant, and some health, they pick up a cantrip, 1 metamagic, 6th level spells, and 4 sorcery points.

I don't have a very strong opinion on what an 'ideal' split is (if such a thing exists), but if we're making the comparison, we should include everyting.

As for Pal 12 / Sorc 8, it's not just the immunity to fear, 1d8 radiant damage and some extra HP. It's also
- an ASI
- 30 extra healing with Lay on Hands
- access to 3rd level paladin spells, that are really good

As for Pal 8 / Sorc 12, it also has one extra ASI compared with Pal 6 / Sor 14, a little bit of extra LoH, and (depensing on sor variant) 2 hp / level less.

That's quite a bit. ASI's are huge for a paladin (or his multiclass), because it wants to maximize cha, and it's combat stat, and especially the multi class variant that is low on HP benefits from con as well. Also, these builds benefit a lot from feats, wether it is lucky (to make disadvantage super advantage for smites), pole arm master (for bonus attack and ocational reaction attack, for extra smite options), or shield master (for bonus shove and double the chance on smite, due to advantage). Lay on hands is also a very good ability imo because it allows a character to go from 0 to full fighting mode again. The more points you have in such an instance, the better.

Not saying this is better than high level spells and more sorcery points, but extra levels in pally definitely has its own advantages.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-08, 04:30 PM

However, that is a question you can wait until you are a Pal 6 / Sorc 12 to have to try to answer, so I bet in many games it won't matter. :-)

Fable Wright

2016-10-08, 04:36 PM

I think that even if you put them in spoilers, they still get counted in the capacity of tablets, regardless of you open them or not. The easiest solution will be to create another thread in which there are no GIFs.

The problem is that many people read the thread over for commentary, though, and splitting the threads would take away from that. Additionally, the mods are incredibly likely to merge the threads, as they're completely identical topics, and you run into the issues of having to maintain identical text on two entirely separate threads at once. There's bound to be at least a few things that don't get changed each time you update a thread.

Ghost Nappa

2016-10-08, 04:52 PM

The other problem with the guide as is, is that it doesn't go over Paladin spells. While you're not going all the way to Pal's 5th level, it could be helpful to point out some of the more useful or unique Pally spells (Like Find Steed).

Klorox

2016-10-08, 05:52 PM

Would you recommend a paladin/sorcerer 6/1 bother taking booming blade and green flame blade?

It's one of my favorite tricks for a pal 2/sorc X, but that character doesn't have multiple attacks (unless you go favored soul sorcerer).

Gastronomie

2016-10-08, 06:26 PM

The problem is that many people read the thread over for commentary, though, and splitting the threads would take away from that. Additionally, the mods are incredibly likely to merge the threads, as they're completely identical topics, and you run into the issues of having to maintain identical text on two entirely separate threads at once. There's bound to be at least a few things that don't get changed each time you update a thread.Klorox has once suggested me to post the same topic on ENWorld. If the mods frown upon me posting identical topics in here, I will post the GIF-less version in there and request Daishain to have a link to the ENWorld version thread in his "Guides for 5e" thread.

The other problem with the guide as is, is that it doesn't go over Paladin spells. While you're not going all the way to Pal's 5th level, it could be helpful to point out some of the more useful or unique Pally spells (Like Find Steed).Well, as already written in the thread, I didn't rate Paladin spells because I thought the pre-existing guides cover them well enough. Do you have any spells besides Find Steed you find to be especially interesting?

But yeah, a Paladin/Sorcerer utilizing Find Steed does look interesting...

Would you recommend a paladin/sorcerer 6/1 bother taking booming blade and green flame blade?

It's one of my favorite tricks for a pal 2/sorc X, but that character doesn't have multiple attacks (unless you go favored soul sorcerer).I don't know what you mean by "Paladin/Sorcerer6/1" (what's what "/1"?) but if you don't have Extra Attack you should have both GFB and BB.

Rhaegar14

2016-10-08, 06:37 PM

This is a very well-written guide, and one I may use in the future (Sorcadin is on the list of builds I'd like to play). I have two main comments, however:

1) I'd like to see a little more expansion on WHY Aura of Protection is so good as to justify four more levels of Paladin than you otherwise need. If you take Fire Dragon Sorcerer (hands-down the best choice if your DM doesn't allow the UA Origins) and Greenflame Blade, Extra Attack doesn't actually significantly increase your damage on a Sword and Board build (outside those occasions where you're dealing with fire resistance or immunity), so it becomes a wasted feature, leaving the Aura the only major reason to stay in Paladin that long. By going Paladin 2 or 3 you are vastly increasing the power of your spellcasting, which, in addition to the obvious benefits of higher level spells and more Sorcery Points earlier, increases the power of your Smites and allows you to eventually get 9th-level spells in a long enough campaign. You say yourself in your guide that Sorcadin doesn't really come online until higher levels, so if you're playing this build in the first place (and using this guide for it) you're probably planning on seeing high levels.

2) I would argue that even without Polearm Master, a glaive or halberd is a better choice for the great weapon build than a greatsword, ESPECIALLY if the UA feat is off the table but maybe even if it's available. With your Sorcerer spells you can create plenty of situations where having reach allows you to freely attack a melee opponent without them being able to attack back (most notably Fly but there are battlefield control options as well). Imo that tactical option is worth more than the +1.5 average damage on the greatsword. In fact, this might make the whip worth mentioning for the finesse build for similar reasons.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-08, 09:18 PM

. You say yourself in your guide that Sorcadin doesn't really come online until higher levels,

That's only because he focuses almost exclusively on pal6/sorcX, which does in fact come online quite a bit later.
Sorcadin in general is online as early as level 3 (pal2/sorc1), and really gets going at level 5 (pal2/sorc3).
But this only works of you're just looking at a pally dip, because if you're doing more than that then you want extra attack as soon as possible, which then means you aren't really going strong until level 9.

odigity

2016-10-08, 09:23 PM

1) I'd like to see a little more expansion on WHY Aura of Protection is so good as to justify four more levels of Paladin than you otherwise need.

I think he assumed "add Cha bonus to all saves within 10'" to be self-explanatory in terms of how awesome that is.

If you take Fire Dragon Sorcerer (hands-down the best choice if your DM doesn't allow the UA Origins) and Greenflame Blade, Extra Attack doesn't actually significantly increase your damage on a Sword and Board build (outside those occasions where you're dealing with fire resistance or immunity), so it becomes a wasted feature

Both Green-Flame Blade and Twinned Booming Blade require a particular configuration of two opponents which you may not always have. Extra Attack let's you attack the same opponent twice, and doesn't cost an SP for Twinning. It's still useful, including in situations of fire/thunder resistance, as you pointed out.

allows you to eventually get 9th-level spells

Thing is, I don't want my Sorcadin to cast 9th level spells. That's a full caster thing. I want him to focus on lower-level spells that fit his well-rounded role as melee / tank / support / etc.

With your Sorcerer spells you can create plenty of situations where having reach allows you to freely attack a melee opponent without them being able to attack back

Sure, you could... but I wouldn't want to. Again, the Sorcadin makes an excellent tank, with top of the line AC + shield, and is the opposite of mobile, with no speed boosts and a speed reduction from heavy armor. I'd rather stay in my enemy's face and punish him with an AoO if he leaves.

Edit: The critique I agree most with is that it requires patience before you get to enjoy all the synergy at level 9 (Pal 6 / Sorc 3), and that Pal 2 might be more attractive in low-level games.

Draco4472

2016-10-08, 09:52 PM

It has two targets, the target of the weapon attack and the target the fire jumps to, so it is ineligible for Twinning.

Just read the description. I should probably read the PHB in more detail before making a build of two classes I have never played before.

Klorox

2016-10-08, 10:34 PM

I don't know what you mean by "Paladin/Sorcerer6/1" (what's what "/1"?) but if you don't have Extra Attack you should have both GFB and BB.
I meant that if you go for your 6 paladin levels first, and then multiclass into sorcerer (which is how I'd do it if I knew I were playing in a high-level game), would you bother with the SCAG cantrips? Extra attack is such a great ability and I'm wondering if the cantrips are worth investing in.

Klorox

2016-10-08, 10:36 PM

That's only because he focuses almost exclusively on pal6/sorcX, which does in fact come online quite a bit later.
Sorcadin in general is online as early as level 3 (pal2/sorc1), and really gets going at level 5 (pal2/sorc3).
But this only works of you're just looking at a pally dip, because if you're doing more than that then you want extra attack as soon as possible, which then means you aren't really going strong until level 9.

I have yet to actually play this character. What is so great about level 5 (pal2/sorc3)? Is it because of the SCAG cantrip boost?

Ghost Nappa

2016-10-08, 10:59 PM

I have yet to actually play this character. What is so great about level 5 (pal2/sorc3)? Is it because of the SCAG cantrip boost?

With a shortsword:
Attack: Attack (1d8+STR), Extra Attack (1d8+STR)
Bonus: Quickened Booming Blade (1d8+STR slashing, 1d8 thunder, an additional 2d8 thunder if they move).

Or if you also Smite during your Bonus, 1d8+STR slashing, 1d8 thunder, 2d8-5d8 radiant, +1d8 Vs. Fiends/Undead, +2d8 if they move.

Essentially, the nova is a [4d8+STR, 10d8+STR], which increases another 2d8 at Level 11 and Level 17.

Team-up with a Diviner Wizard to incentivize the enemy to move away from you - dealing the rest of Booming Blade's damage, giving you a Reaction for another chance to swing for damage, and if you have Sentinel, locking the enemy in place - and to give you the odd Crit from Portent, and you can up to 28d8 (avg: 126) damage from a single attack (for the sake of comparison, the Tarrasque has a little under 700 HP). Even if you don't accomplish that ridiculousness, it can be a real teammate with a Rogue who now has a flanking buddy for Sneak Attack (which does maybe 3/4 of your damage, but consumes no resources).

The main draw of Level 5 for the cantrips is that you add actual damage dice to the immediate damage of the attack, instead of just CHA.

Gastronomie

2016-10-08, 11:06 PM

This is a very well-written guide, and one I may use in the future (Sorcadin is on the list of builds I'd like to play).Thanks~.

1) I'd like to see a little more expansion on WHY Aura of Protection is so good as to justify four more levels of Paladin than you otherwise need.
I think he assumed "add Cha bonus to all saves within 10'" to be self-explanatory in terms of how awesome that is.Well yeah, odigity summed up my thoughts, but my thoughts may have needed more explanation.

The Sorcadin is a tank. One of his jobs is to be on the frontlines and be the focus of the enemy attacks.

Now, regardless of whether he's 2/18 or 6/14, the Sorcadin quite good at defending himself against normal attacks, due to the various methods explained in "Neutral 1" of the "Why be a Sorcadin?" section of the guide (increasing AC and HP, healing, using spells like Mirror Image, etc.) However, without Aura of Protection, he may fail crucial saving throws such as:
A dragon's breath that may blast him unconscious if he takes its full force (Sorcadins have a bit low regular HP)
WIS saves that render him uselss for a turn or more (Sure, Sorcaadins already have proficiency in WIS saves, but his base WIS itself is either 8 or 10, meaning he will have only a +5 or +6 bonus at maximum. Crippling WIS saves tend to have a DC that's around 15 (Beholders, enemy casters etc.), meaning that with just WIS save proficiency, he will suceed only about half the time - or even less at lower levels. Failing a single WIS save can easily make the Sorcadin become unable to fight for one or two turns, which is enough time for the enemies around him to either smash away at his bit-low core HP, or leave him alone and jump into the party backrow, shredding through the squishy Wizards)
CON saves that weaken his capacities as a warrior (poison being the most easy-to-understand example. You can use Lay on Hands to heal them, but it still uses up a turn... also, disadvantage on attacks makes you less powerful as at locking down enemies as well)
Concentration saves (Sure, with CON 16 (+3) and advantage via War Caster and a DC 10 save, you will be able to maintain your concentration 91% of the time. This seems good enough on first glance - but if you take damage twice that will become 82%, three times for 75%, four times for 68%, five times for 62%... and so on. Since you're the tank, even with good AC, expect to take damage several times in an encounter. Looking at these percentages, you may see that it's actually not that surprising for a Sorcadin without Aura of Protection to lose his concentration save. Compared to this, with +3 to +5 via Aura of Protection, - let's say +4 here for a build that hasn't gone Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 8 yet - you get +8 and advantage, meaning that you fail the concentration save only 1% of the time per hit. Five hits and you're still gonna be able to maintain concentration 95% of the time. Isn't that wonderful?)

If you take Fire Dragon Sorcerer (hands-down the best choice if your DM doesn't allow the UA Origins) and Greenflame Blade, Extra Attack doesn't actually significantly increase your damage on a Sword and Board build (outside those occasions where you're dealing with fire resistance or immunity), so it becomes a wasted feature, leaving the Aura the only major reason to stay in Paladin that long.
Both Green-Flame Blade and Twinned Booming Blade require a particular configuration of two opponents which you may not always have. Extra Attack let's you attack the same opponent twice, and doesn't cost an SP for Twinning. It's still useful, including in situations of fire/thunder resistance, as you pointed out.Odigity's summed it up, but I may add that even if there are multiple enemies near you, you may want to use Extra Attack over GFB, such as when a particular monster has devastating attacks, and you want to get rid of him as fast as possible before moving onto the others. GFB is a strong spell, but it has its limitations in how you can't severely damage a singular target - it can only just do good damage to two targets.
Having more options is always a good thing.

By going Paladin 2 or 3 you are vastly increasing the power of your spellcasting, which, in addition to the obvious benefits of higher level spells and more Sorcery Points earlier, increases the power of your Smites and allows you to eventually get 9th-level spells in a long enough campaign. You say yourself in your guide that Sorcadin doesn't really come online until higher levels, so if you're playing this build in the first place (and using this guide for it) you're probably planning on seeing high levels.Well, expanding on "vastly" here, in terms of spell slots, from Caster level 17 (6/14) and level 19 (2/18), you get an extra level 5 and level 6 slot, which can be used for more casting (or converting into sorcery points if you're really that low on them). You also get Wish. The Level 8 Sorcerer spells are not that good IMO, I mean, not as good as the level 7 ones. Perhaps Earthquake, depending on the campaign, but I think that's pretty much it.

Sure, I can see the benefits, but those benefits are useless if you're incapacitated, or charmed, or otherwise affected by some powerful control effect the enemies have cast upon you. It goes without arguing that being a better caster is a good thing, but my personal opinion is that having the spell slot equivalent of a level 17 caster and having up to level 7 spells is already enough for a Sorcadin, and that if you've got that much firepower, you should focus next on the defensive side to make sure you are more "steady" and "always reliable". Aura of Protection is exactly the ability that does that.

That's only because he focuses almost exclusively on pal6/sorcX, which does in fact come online quite a bit later.
Sorcadin in general is online as early as level 3 (pal2/sorc1), and really gets going at level 5 (pal2/sorc3).
But this only works of you're just looking at a pally dip, because if you're doing more than that then you want extra attack as soon as possible, which then means you aren't really going strong until level 9.If you're S&B, you do require your DM to be not very fussy with spell component rules for that, though. If he's a really strict DM he will not allow you to cast Sorcerer spells until you get War Caster. (Of course you can use a heavy weapon from levels 1 to 5 to make up for that, but.)

2) I would argue that even without Polearm Master, a glaive or halberd is a better choice for the great weapon build than a greatsword, ESPECIALLY if the UA feat is off the table but maybe even if it's available. With your Sorcerer spells you can create plenty of situations where having reach allows you to freely attack a melee opponent without them being able to attack back (most notably Fly but there are battlefield control options as well). Imo that tactical option is worth more than the +1.5 average damage on the greatsword. In fact, this might make the whip worth mentioning for the finesse build for similar reasons.Yes, Glaives and Halberds have good synergy with spells like Fly, but I think one of the main things of a Sorcadin is to lock enemies on the map and try to keep them away from the glass cannons and backrow casters. The method you explains sure makes your Sorcadin better at not taking damage, but what if no one else in your party is willing to keep the enemies at bay? It's much better for you to take the damage instead of having the other casters take the damage. You have wonderful AC, various spells that help you defend better, healing options you can use in-between battles, and many other tricks up your sleeve that more than justify you standing on the frontlines.

However, regardless of whether your DM acknowledges Blade Mastery or not, Greatsword builds should still carry Halberds for when they need it.

Waazraath

2016-10-09, 04:55 AM

However, that is a question you can wait until you are a Pal 6 / Sorc 12 to have to try to answer, so I bet in many games it won't matter. :-)

That really depends on the build progression. Going pally 6, Sor 1 or 2 for the shield spell, a ranged cantrip, and maybe some metamagic, and than continuing to pally 8, is imo a perfectly playable choice. The sorcerer levels add a little bit of versatility and a defensive boost, and sor 2 a nova option with a quickened SCAG cantrip.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-09, 07:58 AM

I have yet to actually play this character. What is so great about level 5 (pal2/sorc3)? Is it because of the SCAG cantrip boost?

At p2/s3 you have all of your main features already. You're fully functional. You don't have a ton of resources to use then with, but you're fully functional.

If you're S&B, you do require your DM to be not very fussy with spell component rules for that, though. If he's a really strict DM he will not allow you to cast Sorcerer spells until you get War Caster. (Of course you can use a heavy weapon from levels 1 to 5 to make up for that, but.)
AC in light armor with a Dex build, or AC in medium armor (if you haven't dumped Dex) is 15 or 16. That's completely respectable for level 5. Potential +2 for shield of faith, potential +5 for shield spell, potential +2 for an actual shield, potential +1 for Defense style.
That perfectly respectable 15/16 can be as high as 26 if you need it to be (24 without an actual shield).
You don't have a ton of spell slots yet, and even if you do your spending some/alot of them on smites. If you're trying/needing to act in a standard caster capacity, why are you standing in the front? Hang back for one round, cast your spell, then move in.
War Caster isn't required at all, it just makes things easier. Sure, warcaster is optimal, but you don't need a lenient DM if you just play smart. You'll get warcaster at 6, and that's when mobs' attack bonuses start to make you really want it.

cZak

2016-10-09, 12:41 PM

I've basically 'relearned' my Sorc spells known to 2 spells of 1st & 2nd level. Focusing on what boosts my combat abilities or covers traditional gaps for martials; Shield, Burn hands, Blur, Enhance ability.
Knowing more 3rd & 4th level spells broadens my repetoir of tricks; Fly, Haste, Melf's meteors, Grtr Invis.

Greater invis n Blur basically seem to accomplish the same thing; disadvantage on attack. Both require concentration.
Resource wise, you'll always have more 2nd than 4th level spell slots.
Granted, Invisibility reduces opportunity attacks, but how difficult is a passive perception check on a platemail dressed target.
I do like the Mirror image spell for the 'no concentration' bonus.
But seems to me it can be knocked down fairly quickly facing multiple attackers, or a creature with multiple attacks.

I'm not the primary damage dealer.
With an assassin, champion n bearbarian in the group, a twinned Haste or Grtr invis is just whipped cream on the cake of boss fights.

Tides of Chaos & Bend luck are GREAT little bits to throw in the gears of situations.
Like having Bless or a minor Lucky feat as a class option.

Reosoul

2016-10-09, 02:10 PM

Going to be trying this build out soon, probably in Adventure League. I'll let ya know how it goes!

Rhaegar14

2016-10-10, 04:43 AM

Well yeah, odigity summed up my thoughts, but my thoughts may have needed more explanation.

The Sorcadin is a tank. One of his jobs is to be on the frontlines and be the focus of the enemy attacks.

This is where I actually take issue with many of your points to follow. I disagree, based on your own default build. The Sorcadin is not a tank, the Sorcadin is a BRUISER. The Sorcadin can take some punishment but lacks Sentinel (and lacks the extra ASIs to take it) and is thus unable to force enemies to focus on them. Sure, they can take away the capability for an opponent to attack at all, but then that's still not really tanking, that's battlefield control, and there's no reason for you to be worried about soaking up attacks in that situation. Booming Blade helps in some scenarios, but not all, and costs you some of your damage regardless.

I am currently playing an 8th-level Paladin in my home campaign. I am WELL AWARE of how good a feature Aura of Protection is. Between the basic Paladin kit and Resilient (Constitution) I only fail saves when our DM targets Dexterity (or roll garbage, but nothing can really save you from that), since I don't have proficiency and have a negative Dex modifier. My point is that it isn't "two spell levels behind" good in my opinion. (Note that caps are for emphasis; I'm not "yelling" at you or anything.)

Both Green-Flame Blade and Twinned Booming Blade require a particular configuration of two opponents which you may not always have. Extra Attack let's you attack the same opponent twice, and doesn't cost an SP for Twinning. It's still useful, including in situations of fire/thunder resistance, as you pointed out.

Odigity's summed it up, but I may add that even if there are multiple enemies near you, you may want to use Extra Attack over GFB, such as when a particular monster has devastating attacks, and you want to get rid of him as fast as possible before moving onto the others. GFB is a strong spell, but it has its limitations in how you can't severely damage a singular target - it can only just do good damage to two targets.
Having more options is always a good thing.

Let's be clear: I am not contesting that Extra Attack is significantly better for the great weapon build. Just sword and board. Let's look at a level 8 standard Sword and Board Sorcadin, with Strength 16 and Dueling style:

2 attacks for 1d8+5, for a total of 2d8+10 assuming both hit.

Now, let's look at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6, with Red, Gold, or Brass Dragon Ancestry (so fire). Nothing in Greenflame Blade's description says you HAVE to have a secondary target, and you're both arguing about focusing fire, so let's break down that damage. Strength 16, Charisma 16, Dueling style (sub-optimal, but for comparison's sake):

1 attack for 1d8+5 + 1d8 (Greenflame Blade) + 3 (Charisma from Elemental Affinity) for a total of 2d8+8 on a hit.

That's a two point damage difference. And while admittedly the Sorcadin's damage is a little less consistent since it's all focused into one attack, they can also basically Action Surge for two Sorcery points (which they'll always have four more of than a same level Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X), and they have more, higher-level slots to burn on Divine Smite when they really need them. Outside that case of resistance or immunity that's a wash to me, and even in that uncommon scenario they just switch to Booming Blade to minimize their lost damage. And when Greenflame Blade's damage scales again at level 11, then the Pal 2 Sorcadin actually comes out ahead until the Pal 6 Sorcadin gets Elemental Affinity at 12, at which point they're doing the same thing as the Pal 2 Sorcadin and Extra Attack becomes a largely pointless feature.

Well, expanding on "vastly" here, in terms of spell slots, from Caster level 17 (6/14) and level 19 (2/18), you get an extra level 5 and level 6 slot, which can be used for more casting (or converting into sorcery points if you're really that low on them). You also get Wish. The Level 8 Sorcerer spells are not that good IMO, I mean, not as good as the level 7 ones. Perhaps Earthquake, depending on the campaign, but I think that's pretty much it.

The Pal 2 Sorcadin is not just ENDING with better spellcasting; they're getting every new level of Sorcerer spells FOUR LEVELS EARLIER than the Pal 6 Sorcadin. You're making the claim that having +Cha to saves and 1st level Sorcerer spells is so much better than 3rd level Sorcerer spells , or any other 2-level gap, that the Pal 2 option doesn't even deserve analysis in your guide. (I'll note here that I consider the secondary Sorcerer features, like extra sorcery points, new metamagic options, and Sorcerous Origin features like Dragon Wings coming sooner a wash with the Paladin 3-6 features, since I've just established above that Extra Attack isn't worth that much.)

Thing is, I don't want my Sorcadin to cast 9th level spells. That's a full caster thing. I want him to focus on lower-level spells that fit his well-rounded role as melee / tank / support / etc.

And if you want to do that that's totally fine, but a guide like this should focus on what is objectively mechanically good, not what feels right to any one person. Also, Foresight is an amazingly gishy 9th-level spell; though it doesn't really hold a candle to Wish's utility, there is a happy medium.

Sure, you could... but I wouldn't want to. Again, the Sorcadin makes an excellent tank, with top of the line AC + shield, and is the opposite of mobile, with no speed boosts and a speed reduction from heavy armor. I'd rather stay in my enemy's face and punish him with an AoO if he leaves.

Again, I don't think the Sorcadin is a tank. Disengage works fine on them unless they've used Booming Blade preemptively (and even then, a couple d8s of thunder damage is often worth getting to a softer target), and even Booming Blade won't protect other melee allies. Also, speed penalties in heavy armor aren't a thing anymore. Provided you're proficient and have high enough Strength, the only thing wearing heavy armor penalizes you for is Stealth checks. Plus, spells like Haste and Misty Step in fact make you EXTREMELY mobile.

Ghost Nappa

2016-10-10, 05:47 AM

Let's be clear: I am not contesting that Extra Attack is significantly better for the great weapon build. Just sword and board. Let's look at a level 8 standard Sword and Board Sorcadin, with Strength 16 and Dueling style:

2 attacks for 1d8+5, for a total of 2d8+10 assuming both hit.

Now, let's look at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6, with Red, Gold, or Brass Dragon Ancestry (so fire). Nothing in Greenflame Blade's description says you HAVE to have a secondary target, and you're both arguing about focusing fire, so let's break down that damage. Strength 16, Charisma 16, Dueling style (sub-optimal, but for comparison's sake):

1 attack for 1d8+5 + 1d8 (Greenflame Blade) + 3 (Charisma from Elemental Affinity) for a total of 2d8+8 on a hit.

That's a two point damage difference. And while admittedly the Sorcadin's damage is a little less consistent since it's all focused into one attack, they can also basically Action Surge for two Sorcery points (which they'll always have four more of than a same level Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X), and they have more, higher-level slots to burn on Divine Smite when they really need them. Outside that case of resistance or immunity that's a wash to me, and even in that uncommon scenario they just switch to Booming Blade to minimize their lost damage. And when Greenflame Blade's damage scales again at level 11, then the Pal 2 Sorcadin actually comes out ahead until the Pal 6 Sorcadin gets Elemental Affinity at 12, at which point they're doing the same thing as the Pal 2 Sorcadin and Extra Attack becomes a largely pointless feature.

I thought the main draw of Extra Attack was that it let you make two Attacks with no cost (allowing you more opportunities for some smite damage on crits) with the potential for a third nova attack if you so chose, and even then, it's not the reason you're spending so much time in Paladin. It's a nice little always on bonus that comes with the higher saves and better health.

As a total aside, the more I think about it though, I don't see how any race beats Vuman for either build (2/18 and 6/14), since not only do you not lose an ASI/Fea opportunity (you still get 5), you're essentially getting one of them 18 levels earlier.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-10, 06:11 AM

This is where I actually take issue with many of your points to follow. I disagree, based on your own default build. The Sorcadin is not a tank, the Sorcadin is a BRUISER.

See, mine is mostly control / support.
That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.

For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played: Here's what I did, copy/pasted from a text file I had. We got a free feat at level 1, I took war caster right away. You'd have to adjust the cantrips and lvl1 pally spells to account for not raising Cha at 6.

27 pts
Str 13(5) - or 10 if allowed
Dex 15(9)+1=16
Con 13(5)+1= 14
Int 8
Wis 9(1) - or 12 if 10str allowed
Cha 14(7)+2= 16

Half Elf: darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility (Stealth and Investigation), languages (common, elvish, +one)
Urban Bounty Hunter: Insight & Perception (instead of Stealth), thieves' tools, one instrument or gaming set, clothes, pouch with 20gp
Free feat: War Caster

1. paladin 1 of Tymora
- 10+con HP each level
- equipment: one martial weapon (rapier or scimitar) & a shield, one simple weapon (dagger), explorer's pack, studded leather armor, holy symbol // thieves' tools, gaming set (dice), clothes, pouch with 20gp
- divine sense, lay on hands
- Proficiencies:
--- all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields
--- Wisdom and Charisma saves
--- thieves' tools, one gaming set (dice), acrobatics, insight, investigation, perception, persuasion, stealth

2. sorcerer 1 favored soul of Tymora (Trickery)
- d6+con HP each level
- chosen of the gods
- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
- spells: charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep (later swap)

3. p2
- defense style, spellcasting, divine smite
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep

4. s2
- font of magic
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, sleep

5. s3
- metamagic: quicken & twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, (sleep swapped for web)
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web

6. s4
- ASI (+2cha = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion,ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, suggestion, web

7. s5
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, (suggestion swapped for fly), web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fly, haste

8. s6
- extra attack
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste

9. s7
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // wall of fire

10. s8
- ASI (+2dex = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, fire bolt, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire

11. s9
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster

12. s10
- metamagic: heightened, quicken, twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, cure wounds, divine favor, searing smite, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster, wall of stone

Gastronomie

2016-10-10, 07:49 AM

Going to be trying this build out soon, probably in Adventure League. I'll let ya know how it goes!Nice! Thanks~

This is where I actually take issue with many of your points to follow. I disagree, based on your own default build. The Sorcadin is not a tank, the Sorcadin is a BRUISER. The Sorcadin can take some punishment but lacks Sentinel (and lacks the extra ASIs to take it) and is thus unable to force enemies to focus on them. Sure, they can take away the capability for an opponent to attack at all, but then that's still not really tanking, that's battlefield control, and there's no reason for you to be worried about soaking up attacks in that situation. Booming Blade helps in some scenarios, but not all, and costs you some of your damage regardless.
See, mine is mostly control / support.
That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.These posts have actually been extremely helpful in how they helped me see a new possibility. This is because I have probably been talking too much from personal experience. (I know, it's near impossible to talk based on anything that is not personal experience, but anyways.)

My builds utilized Champion Challenge (Oath of the Crown), Careful+Web and other stuff to help be a good frontline defender. Sure, I also did the control/support that DivisibleByZero mentioned, but I'm pretty sure my build and DBZ (that abbreviation sounds like something else) 's build are pretty different characters if you look at how they move.

And I hadn't put much thought into what non-tankish builds will be like. That's why I didn't think 2/18 will be a very good choice. It's also probably why DBZ mentioned this guide is currently incomplete.

I am going to create a new section about paladin and sorcerer levels, but apart from that I think I will also make another section which will go over the jobs of a Sorcadin, and explain what options are good for each job. Thanks for the insight!

(BTW, "Sorcadin is not a tank" is an overstatement - just like my previous mindset that Sorcadins are tanks are not always the case. The truth is that Sorcadins can become tanks if they want, but don't have to be to be strong - a conclusion I think both I and DBZ can finally agree upon.

Champion Challenge is a wonderful ability when it comes to defending the backrow. As explained in sample builds, Careful Spell+Web and Booming Blade (Reaction version)+War Caster also creates an extremely effective lockdown combo that also severely debuffs your enemies. BB's main job is to use together with War Caster for menacing OAs.)

Let's be clear: I am not contesting that Extra Attack is significantly better for the great weapon build. Just sword and board. Let's look at a level 8 standard Sword and Board Sorcadin, with Strength 16 and Dueling style:
-snip-Well, I did similar math in my guide, but I'm pretty damn sure GFB requires the flames to leap to a different target, so it's not true that GFB can always damage as well as Extra Attack.
On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it.Extra Attack increases your options and improves your DPR in situations where GFB doesn't work as well as it should (which are common). While it's most definitely not worth taking 3 Paladin levels on its own, it is a nice "extra option" that you can count in the reasons to go Paladin 6.

The Pal 2 Sorcadin is not just ENDING with better spellcasting; they're getting every new level of Sorcerer spells FOUR LEVELS EARLIER than the Pal 6 Sorcadin. You're making the claim that having +Cha to saves and 1st level Sorcerer spells is so much better than 3rd level Sorcerer spells , or any other 2-level gap, that the Pal 2 option doesn't even deserve analysis in your guide. (I'll note here that I consider the secondary Sorcerer features, like extra sorcery points, new metamagic options, and Sorcerous Origin features like Dragon Wings coming sooner a wash with the Paladin 3-6 features, since I've just established above that Extra Attack isn't worth that much.)Well, I actually already did correct my mistakes there. Though I haven't edited the original guide I have written in the comment section that I will create a new section which analyzes the various Paladin/Sorcerer ratios. I will also edit the original guide to make it less subjective and more objective.

Also, Foresight is an amazingly gishy 9th-level spell; though it doesn't really hold a candle to Wish's utility, there is a happy medium.I know. Foresight is an amazingly gishy 9th-level spell. It's really wonderful to have. It's a blast. I want it.

...Sorcerers don't have it...

They probably thought Foresight+Twinned Spell would be too much. And I think they're right. But still, it's a really sad thing for Sorcadins.

Bladelocks get Foresight at level 18, so that's one thing they excel at compared to Sorcadins.

For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played:
-snip-...Oh my god, thank you! This sort of stuff is wonderful. Truly helpful! It really helps me understand what the other people want and create for themselves.

Thanks for the input and all the comments!

Willie the Duck

2016-10-10, 08:47 AM

See, mine is mostly control / support.
That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.

For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played: <snip>see above

Just a few quick questions.
1) what is the "//" notation in the spells memorized section for each level?
2) Have you found that the defensive combat option to be worth it? Clearly this build is less dependent on weapon damage than, say, a fighter, but I still feel ambivalent about the option. What's you in-play experience?
3) How would things change if you didn't have SCAG options?

Gastronomie

2016-10-10, 08:54 AM

1) what is the "//" notation in the spells memorized section for each level?
2) Have you found that the defensive combat option to be worth it? Clearly this build is less dependent on weapon damage than, say, a fighter, but I still feel ambivalent about the option. What's you in-play experience?
3) How would things change if you didn't have SCAG options?1) I think the // divides "Paladin Spells", "Favored Soul Spells", and "Sorcerer Spells".
2) I am not DBZ, but I have found it to be worth it in my builds. I think it's better than Dueling for Sorcadins.

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-10, 09:01 AM

1) I think the // divides "Paladin Spells", "Favored Soul Spells", and "Sorcerer Spells".
2) I am not DBZ, but I have found it to be worth it in my builds. I think it's better than Dueling for Sorcadins.

Those are the answers that I would have given. Beat me to it

Willie the Duck

2016-10-10, 10:14 AM

Gastronomie

2016-10-10, 10:26 AM

Anything regarding not having SCAG options? We are going to play for a year or more without it, to see if just core is fine for us. Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade seem to be keystone gish spells for multi-target damage and battlefield control. I can imagine the game being quite different if they aren't on the table.First off, Extra Attack becomes a must. So it's either Paladin 6 or higher, or Favored Soul.

Draconic Sorcerer will become a weaker option.

It becomes a bit harder to operate the Paladin as a defensive frontline warrior, since its opportunity attacks are less devastating.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-10, 10:41 AM

Cool. It will be Pal6, since Favored Soul is even less core. As are most options other than Draconic (and wild magic, which I've yet to have heard anyone say they've done except for flavor reasons). I'm thinking Dex build, picking up Draconic sorcerer for +1 AC compared to studded at level 3, but probably going back to Paladin until Pal6/Sor1. The Defensive vs. Duelist is a real tricky one, as Dragon Sorc1 + (let's say) Dex 16 + shield is AC 18. It certainly makes me consider Dueling.
It also makes me consider my taking +2 Dex as my first ASI, and holding off on War Caster until higher level. With non-SCAG spells, it is feasible to use exclusively paladin spells and smites (in combat), and pretty much ignore sorcerer spells (Just making it a faster advancement mechanism) until higher levels). Sure, losing shield isn't fun, but the +2 dex is +1 AC, and +1 hit, +1 damage, +1 Dex saves, +1 initiative... The only annoying thing about that idea is that you are pretty much dipping into sorcerer for the +1 AC and faster spell advancement well up until level 10 or so (when you pick up your second ASI and War Caster, as well as when level 2 sorcerer spells with level 4 slots begin to make more impact on the game than being a double-attacking smite machine).

Arkhios

2016-10-10, 01:37 PM

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-10, 02:10 PM

I'd allow it at my table. Not all DMs would, so your mileage may vary, but I would.

Gastronomie

2016-10-10, 06:44 PM

TL;DR. I sincerely apologise if this has been adressed before.

I realise it's not strictly speaking rules as written, but would you guys allow Twinned Elemental Weapon? It's a range of touch, and has only one target by default. RAW Twin Metamagic is written so that the spell must target a creature, but would it be broken to allow target be a weapon; or rather, two weapons if twinned?If Elemental Weapon is allowed, I'd rather go with Magic Weapon though. Less of a spell slot, less sorcery points to Twin.

But I think I'd rather use Bless, to be honest.

Klorox

2016-10-12, 08:53 AM

I'd rather guides stick to RAW, but this is a discussion, emright?

Anyway, I'm loving this character type. It's very versatile, and if you go pal2/sorc x, you get a real feel of the character from level 3 on. This is where all the other single classed guys start getting their feels too.

I enjoy playing versatile characters who can have an impact in many situations.

The paladin 2/ sorcerer X helps in melee and ranged combat, in 1 v 1 and 1 v crowds, and they excel in any social situation.

Thanks again for this guild. It's awesome.

MildMedium

2016-10-13, 05:02 PM

Anyway, I'm loving this character type. It's very versatile, and if you go pal2/sorc x, you get a real feel of the character from level 3 on. This is where all the other single classed guys start getting their feels too.

...

The paladin 2/ sorcerer X helps in melee and ranged combat, in 1 v 1 and 1 v crowds, and they excel in any social situation.

Yup, this is what I'm doing. I feel like this build "unlocks" at level 3 as well, which is useful when you can't start at higher levels. Progression:

Paladin 1: Pretty boring, divine sense & lay on hands, but heavy armour is the best, although RAW you will start with chain mail and not plate which is what you want really (mithril, if you can get it, so you're not always sneaking at disadvantage). I'll pick up Warcaster eventually so not having constitution saving throws isn't the end of the world. Buy a shield and one handed weapon (longsword, warhammer, battle axe, etc) for 18 AC.

Ability focuses: Strength, charisma, constitution, wisdom. Lucky rolls land me an array of 18, 8, 14, 12, 14, 17 when going half-elf.

Skills: With the urban bounty hunter background, I have Athletics (+6), Deception (+5), Insight (+4), Perception (+4), Persuasion (+5), Religion (+3). Drop religion for something more useful if you want but I like the flavour. The only shame here is that there is no way of being good at stealth unless you fancy dumping Int or Wis (my DM is funny about that for RP reasons though).

Paladin 2: Divine smite (using your two level one spell slots, this is +2d8 radiant damage on two melee attacks per day) and Fighting Style (I took defence for +1 AC so that's 19 now). You also get spellcasting - I took bless, cure wounds, searing smite and thunderous smite. I don't expect to use these spells much.

Paladin 2, sorcerer 1: This is where things really kick off! Favoured Soul. Taking Favoured Soul means we get a second attack at sorcerer level 6 (character level 8) and reach a higher number of spell slots and sorcery points. This is the primary difference between my build and Gastronomie's - I don't trust my party to stay within 10' of me and benefit from Aura of Protection, and really that's the only reason to take more than 2 or 3 levels in Paladin IMHO. Maybe I'll take a third level in paladin later, to grab an Oath, but I certainly won't be going to Paladin 5 and getting the extra attack there, which makes this my preferred sorcerer origin.

Favoured Soul also gives you some extra spell selection flexibility - Gastronomie has a good section on this but I went for War as that fits with my PC fluff. Trickery also looks good.

Spells: Cantrips: Booming blade (which you can use smite on, btw), shocking grasp, chill touch and minor illusion. I think this is a nice range.
Level 1: Shield and anything else. Just pick something fun, none of them are that good so it doesn't matter. Swap this second level 1 spell out ASAP.

Paladin 2, Favoured Soul 2. Font of Magic. Great. Also: sorcery points.
Spells: Another level 1 spell. Woo. I took disguise self, and might use it for fun. In terms of divine smite, you can now do 4x +2d8 and 2x 3d8 extra damage on melee attacks.

Paladin 2, Favoured Soul 3. Metamagic! Finally! Pick up Quickened and Twinned spell for many hi-jinks, and then choose Mirror Image and Hold Person as your level 2 spells. Swap one of your spare level 1 spells for Suggestion. Divine smite possibilities are now 4x +2d8 and 3x +3d8.

Although you do quickly run out of resources, casting twinned hold person is very powerful, or using quickened booming blade + divine smite, followed by a melee attack + divine smite gives you 1d8+3d8+ability, plus 1d8+3d8+ability, which is 8d8+8 at 18 strength, or 44 damage at 3rd level. Quicken Shocking Grasp and you will never provoke AOs again.

Paladin 2, Favoured Soul 4. Pick up Warcaster, obviously, and know that Divine Smite can now do 4x +2d8, 3x +3d8 and 2x +4d8. Swap your last spare level 1 spell for something good from the level 2 selection - Enlarge/Reduce, Blindness/Deafness and Misty Step are all valid choices.

Really, you just progress as a sorcerer from there, picking up sorcery points and spell slots (for divine smite). I'm not convinced my current game will get much past level 5 so I'll consider next steps once I reach that point...

ps some of my maths will be wrong. it is late.

Byke

2016-10-13, 07:42 PM

Arkhios

2016-10-13, 10:32 PM

Just wanted to add, I'm really not a fan of the Pal 2/Sorc X build...I always go to 6th Pal.....but if I were to stick with only 2 levels of pally then I would definitely work in at least 1 level of Undying Lock...the char bonus dam to radiant and fire would be just to juicy to pass up.

Undying Patron (SCAG) and Undying Light Patron (Currently UA) are two different things; the former being an entity related to undeath while the latter is the entity related to Light.

Byke

2016-10-14, 07:18 AM

Undying Patron (SCAG) and Undying Light Patron (Currently UA) are two different things; the former being an entity related to undeath while the latter is the entity related to Light.

Correct my bad...Undying light Patron is what I meant to say.

Klorox

2016-10-14, 11:46 AM

Correct my bad...Undying light Patron is what I meant to say.

You get a bonus to any fire damage at level 1?

That's insane. Where can I find this?

Byke

2016-10-14, 12:01 PM

You get a bonus to any fire damage at level 1?

That's insane. Where can I find this?

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf

**Edit** Fire and Radiant so x 2 char + Str or Dex when you smite with GFB on the primary target

odigity

2016-10-14, 12:07 PM

You get a bonus to any fire damage at level 1?

That's insane. Where can I find this?

I agree. I've been ignoring UA because I only have access to AL games, and because I assume it's not as balanced as official releases, but that info made me go hunting:

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf

Warlock Patron: The Undying Light

Radiant Soul

Starting at 1st level, your link to the Positive Plane allows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant damage or fire damage, you add your Charisma modifier to that damage. Additionally, you know the sacred flame and light cantrips and can cast them at will. They don’t count against your number of cantrips known.

That's ridiculous.

Arkhios

2016-10-14, 01:12 PM

I agree. I've been ignoring UA because I only have access to AL games, and because I assume it's not as balanced as official releases, but that info made me go hunting:

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf

That's ridiculous.

Yeah, this article was from the deep end of badly worded really strong material. In itself the feature wouldn't be that bad if it was limited to Warlock spells only, but as it's been written it enables broken combinations with certain classes (especially Paladin).

But as I've said before, pretty much every class is capable of overpowered results if a player deliberately tries to make it happen.

Klorox

2016-10-14, 01:12 PM

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf

**Edit** Fire and Radiant so x 2 char + Str or Dex when you smite with GFB on the primary target

Why would it add to smites?

It says you add your CHA modifier to *spells* that deal radiant and fire damage. Smiting is not casting a spell.

Arkhios

2016-10-14, 01:15 PM

Why would it add to smites?

It says you add your CHA modifier to *spells* that deal radiant and fire damage. Smiting is not casting a spell.

Yes, it doesn't add directly to Divine Smite, but with Divine Favor (paladin & war domain only) and Green-Flame Blade the total devastation is quite enormous.

Byke

2016-10-14, 01:43 PM

Yes, it doesn't add directly to Divine Smite, but with Divine Favor (paladin & war domain only) and Green-Flame Blade the total devastation is quite enormous.

There is also Branding and Blinding smite....several ways to add radiant spell damage. But I should have made that clearer in my post.

Arkhios

2016-10-14, 01:54 PM

There is also Branding and Blinding smite....several ways to add radiant spell damage. But I should have made that clearer in my post.

That is true. Just couldn't remember the names of those smite spells, as they are generally quite rubbish. Divine Favor is much better since it lasts for the whole duration and doesn't blow off from first hit.

Byke

2016-10-14, 02:37 PM

That is true. Just couldn't remember the names of those smite spells, as they are generally quite rubbish. Divine Favor is much better since it lasts for the whole duration and doesn't blow off from first hit.

Blinding has some merits and I forgot that my point was for only 2 levels of Pally, so they wouldn't have access to them anyways...but divine favors works well.

Quintessence

2016-10-15, 07:53 PM

Gastronomie

2016-10-15, 08:48 PM

So a Paladin 2/Warlock 1 (Undying light)/Sorcerer 17? That seems like a pretty strong build and actually would be able to do quite a bit with just firebolts, you still get 9th level casting but the ASI hit sucks..It's only 1 less ASI than pure builds, which is the same number of ASIs as a 2/18, 3/17 or 6/14 build get, though. Nothing to really grieve over. And a build that heavy in Sorcerer would need only 20 CHA and do whatever he wants with the rest of his ASIs.

The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.

Currently finishing up "Level Ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer" and "party roles".

Klorox

2016-10-16, 10:36 AM

It's only 1 less ASI than pure builds, which is the same number of ASIs as a 2/18, 3/17 or 6/14 build get, though. Nothing to really grieve over. And a build that heavy in Sorcerer would need only 20 CHA and do whatever he wants with the rest of his ASIs.

The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.

Currently finishing up "Level Ratios of Paladin and Sorcerer" and "party roles".

Keep up the good work my man!

Quintessence

2016-10-16, 04:54 PM

Zene

2016-10-16, 07:26 PM

I think the gifs add some personality to it also :)

Yeah I personally love the gifs. First read-through was on my iphone, and it had no problems loading/viewing them, fyi.

And also, awesome guide. After reading it, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna play a sword-and-board vengeance paladin / wild mage sorc as my next character for max fun.

Byke

2016-10-19, 11:40 AM

The Undying Light patron is the epitome of terrible design and I would never allow it in my games, but I still included it in my guide.

Don't want to pollute the thread of UA class discussions. I will agree that Undying Light patron is a little to front loaded, but I appreciate the attempt at introducing a benevolent patron and healing into the the warlock class. Terrible is a little to harsh :)

krunchyfrogg

2016-10-26, 07:51 PM

Awesome mother effing guide.

Quintessence

2016-10-27, 09:16 PM

What kinds of magic items do you think would most benefit this multiclass?

Gastronomie

2016-10-28, 03:41 AM

Keep up the good work my man!
Awesome, the guide was definitely worth the wait and very well done. I think the gifs add some personality to it also :)
Yeah I personally love the gifs. First read-through was on my iphone, and it had no problems loading/viewing them, fyi.

And also, awesome guide. After reading it, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna play a sword-and-board vengeance paladin / wild mage sorc as my next character for max fun.
Awesome mother effing guide.Thanks guys~~!

Don't want to pollute the thread of UA class discussions. I will agree that Undying Light patron is a little to front loaded, but I appreciate the attempt at introducing a benevolent patron and healing into the the warlock class. Terrible is a little to harsh :)Well, perhaps variety in tone was a thing, but my opinion still stands that its "design" is simply not thought-out well enough to be ever published - or even posted on the net as an semi-official article, because anyone can see on first glance that it needs revising. If the level 1 ability was a level 14 one instead it wouldn't have been "terrible" design. As it is, it's simply too overpowered to be ever allowed entry in my games.

What kinds of magic items do you think would most benefit this multiclass?Anything, really, but off the top of my head:

If given the opportunity to choose the magic weapons you obtain, S&B builds should prioritize AC and saving throws over offense. For instance, if you were able to get either a +1 Longsword or a +1 Shield, I would take the Shield. In theory, +3 Plate, +3 Shield and the Defense feat add up to be 27 AC. Stuff like Ring of Protection and Cloak of Displacement make it even better. Holy Avenger does both of these jobs.
Stuff like the Staff of Power and Staff of Lordly Might that can be used as +X weapons that can be held in one hand, on top of a lot of arcane bonuses.
Obviously, for GWM builds, +X greatswords are top priority.

Arkhios

2016-10-28, 06:27 AM

Anything, really, but off the top of my head:

If given the opportunity to choose the magic weapons you obtain, S&B builds should prioritize AC and saving throws over offense. For instance, if you were able to get either a +1 Longsword or a +1 Shield, I would take the Shield. In theory, +3 Plate, +3 Shield and the Defense feat fighting style* add up to be 27 AC. Stuff like Ring of Protection and Cloak of Displacement make it even better. Holy Avenger does both of these jobs.
Stuff like the Staff of Power and Staff of Lordly Might that can be used as +X weapons that can be held in one hand, on top of a lot of arcane bonuses.
Obviously, for GWM builds, +X greatswords are top priority.

*Fixed it for you.
Also, imho staves that act as +X quarterstaves are rather good for PAM builds. Sometimes (read: more often than not) the base damage die of the weapon doesn't matter much.

Gastronomie

2016-10-28, 06:29 AM

*Fixed it for you.
Also, imho staves that act as +X quarterstaves are rather good for PAM builds. Sometimes (read: more often than not) the base damage die of the weapon doesn't matter much.True. DPR on hit <<<<< accuracy and extra options.

Ennio

2016-10-31, 09:13 AM

removed for RAW

DivisibleByZero

2016-10-31, 09:51 AM

Attributes in order: 8, 16, 14, 10, 12, 16 on stats after half-elf. This was a 27 pt buy.
Half elf seems the most obvious race choice.
Level 3: Paladin 2, Sorc 1 - took paladin first since I wouldn't have the req to multi-in later.

Without DM handwaving you don't have the reqs to multiclass at all. You need to meet the reqs of both classes, and you don't have the Str.

Willie the Duck

2016-10-31, 10:35 AM

Level 3: Paladin 2, Sorc 1 - took paladin first since I wouldn't have the req to multi-in later.

To clarify on what DivisibleByZero said, you have to meet the requirements listed in the Multiclassing description for both classes to multiclass. In other words, you have to meet the paladin multiclass requirements to multiclass OUT as well as IN.

You can definitely ask your DM to houserule, as there isn't a good reason to not allow multiclassing dex-based paladins if you allow multiclassing dex-based fighters (which the rules do allow). OTOH, paladin/sorc seems to be claimed to be one of the best builds in the game, there's also not a lot of reason to make playing one easier.

Ennio

2016-10-31, 10:41 AM

Oops I'll remove that build since it doesn't meet the raw then and thus isn't particularly helpful here lol.

Might repost if I adjust the stats to 13, 16, 14, 8, 8, 16. Wasn't a handwave, more an oversight so not sure if DM will care when I mention it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zene

2016-11-11, 12:22 PM

Played my sorcadin for the first time last night (Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 1), and it was AWESOME. Most of the party was L5, but with so many options (blasting, single-target smackdowns, party support), I never felt like a 5th wheel.

I also happened to get a necklace of fireballs. Can't wait to do a quickened fireball > necklace fireball 1-turn opening combo once I get third-level sorc spells.

The guide is right that when it comes to fun, Wild Sorc is gold. RP with the party was a blast after I introduced myself by saying that my magic could be a bit ... unpredictable. I had one wild magic surge in the middle of a tough fight, and lucked out on the roll (summoned a unicorn). The whole party seemed to hold their breath on the roll, and then when the unicorn appeared, they cheered. It wouldn't let me hop on its back, but it did kick some Fire Giant butt. And thinking through the positioning and spell planning to maximize potential surge effects added a really interesting dimension to combat.

Dunno if you plan to expand the guide to talk more about wild sorc, but if you do, here are a few initial thoughts:

Expeditious Retreat is a great choice for Wild; maybe even gold. Positioning is important if you want to get as many enemies and as few allies in range for some of the AOE surge possibilities. ER allows you to, at the beginning of the fight, use your base movement to optimally position for a surge, then cast it, possibly surge, then dash same turn to a striking position, and you still have your action to attack/cantrip.
You rate Bend Luck as blue; while I don't have it yet, just thinking through the possibilities, I believe it will be higher. Just the fact alone that it makes the Hold Person/crit smite combo more likely to land by being able to mess with the target's saving throw after the roll ... man that's good. Plus all the other uses.

I'll report back if I have any other revelations once I have some more play under my belt.

Zene

2016-11-11, 05:47 PM

Anyone have thoughts on the Volo's races interactions with Sorcadin builds?

The Aasimar Scourge and Fallen seem like a godsend (heh). Too bad since I play AL I wouldn't also be able to use the SCAG cantrips (so no quickened booming blade) which seems like too much of a loss.

Gastronomie

2016-11-11, 10:01 PM

Finished rating the level 8 and 9 spells (or to be more exact, the candidates for Wish) and have edited them into the guide.

Completely forgot to add Expedious Retreat. Now that it's mentioned I can see it's good for Wild Mages.

And yeah, I might as well change Bend Luck to sky blue. Thanks~

I pre-ordered the Volo's guide, but living in Japan, it will take several more weeks till I obtain it. Until then I cannot rate them myself, but if anyone has insight, please tell me here.

Sans.

2016-11-12, 04:05 AM

Confession: I am generally a very lazy person.

What?! Don't underestimate yourself! I'm not sure what you mean, but I feel that typing ~25k words is not 'lazy'.

Giant2005

2016-11-12, 08:14 PM

Gastronomie

2016-11-12, 10:49 PM

The Longsword Palacerer shouldn't exist. The three options should be: Rapier, Greatsword, and Staff. Staff and Shield users are basically the same as what you have listed for Longsword users, except that they don't need Warcaster. As a class desperate for ASIs, that makes the staff users strictly better than Longsword users.Well, by RAW, staffs and quarterstaffs seem like different stuff (to prove this, staffs are 5GP while quarterstaffs are 2SP, and some magical Staffs specifically say "this item can be used as a magical quarterstaff").

As you say, if the DM allows you to get magical items at character creation and you can obtain a staff that also acts as a quarterstaff, that'll be a damn nice item to get for a Sorcadin. But by RAW, it seems you can't use a "staff" as a weapon - at least unless it's an improvised weapon (same stuff as chairs, sticks etc.).

To be fair, I as a DM (not caring about RAW at all in the first place) would allow it, but not will.

And apart from that, War Caster is a pretty good feat, even looking at the concentration advantage and BB OAs. "Shouldn't exist" is putting it much too far.

Giant2005

2016-11-12, 10:59 PM

Both can be used as quarterstaves, but only the more expensive versions can be used as an Arcane Focus.

Gastronomie

2016-11-12, 11:40 PM

Both can be used as quarterstaves, but only the more expensive versions can be used as an Arcane Focus.Where is that mentioned in the PHB? I couldn't find it.

Ashuan21

2016-11-13, 05:47 AM

First of all: Thank you Gastronomie for writing this thread (probably the best 5e guide I've ever read, to the point that I registered mostly to tell you this...)
I also wanted to thank DivisibleByZero which has already pointed out my main concerns and helped improving the great work!

Then...
1) I was wondering why so much emphasis has been given (apart from personal preference) to tank/control (Gastronomie) or support (DBZ); seems to me that this class could have one of the highest DPRs in 5e (I'm not talking of 15-20lvls which I rarely experienced, but of 10-15lvls). 2 attacks -- 2 smites using 4th level slots + quickened fireball/inflict wounds(oathbreaker3) using slots useless for smites (>4th level). If we assume having advantage, likely from precasted Greater Invisibility, or another attack from Haste, that looks like a ton of damage... Shouldn't we focus on optimizing this?

2) Just wanted to say that I support Pal2/SorX build, more Sorcery Points, more Quickened Fireballs and Hold Monsters, more slots to use smites on. But I see the point of going Pal6, especially on tanky builds. Pal2/SorX supports ASIs to attack stat, so to hit more often and further increase damage.

3) For DBZ: I was thinking to a Sorcadin build similar to yours, but I chose Str over Dex, what convinced you to go Dex instead? (I see the point if Str requirement for multiclassing is removed, but otherwise I find there's little to be gained)

4) Regarding Volo's Aasimars: very strong, so strong that I'm actually writing a Sorcadin Aasimar (we start at level 8). Aasimar gives me +2Char +1Str/Wis/Con, resistance to Necro and Radiant, Light cantrip (...), Action to heal HP = character level, Darkvision (it's OotA :S) and a transformation 1/day to become a beast for 1 minute and add character level to damage 1/turn + fly/frightenin10feets/stillmoredamagein10feets

Necrosnoop110

2016-11-13, 08:51 AM

What are y'alls thoughts on:

Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 (going to warlock 2 allows you to take the Agonizing Blast for Cha mod to eldritch blast)

Ghost Nappa

2016-11-13, 10:58 AM

What are y'alls thoughts on:

Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 (going to warlock 2 allows you to take the Agonizing Blast for Cha mod to eldritch blast)

I mean...you could. But why? The purpose of this build is to be a nova tank melee striker person. Why are you dropping two levels of Sorcerer (or Paladin) to get a cantrip attack? Your job isn't to attack at range.

If you wanted to do this, you probably want to drop Paladin entirely and go Warlock 2 / Sorc X.

Spiritchaser

2016-11-13, 02:31 PM

Thanks for writing this, then adding more to address comments!

Arkhios

2016-11-13, 03:09 PM

I mean...you could. But why? The purpose of this build is to be a nova tank melee striker person. Why are you dropping two levels of Sorcerer (or Paladin) to get a cantrip attack? Your job isn't to attack at range.

If you wanted to do this, you probably want to drop Paladin entirely and go Warlock 2 / Sorc X.

The charisma to eldritch blast damage per ray sure is nice, but I think the real jewel of 2-level warlock dip is the spell slots which are recovered on short rests. True, they are only two per rest and only 1st-level. But that's two reliable slots between short rests to spend on smites if for nothing else.

Gastronomie

2016-11-15, 10:54 AM

Thanks for the comments everyone~~!

First of all: Thank you Gastronomie for writing this thread (probably the best 5e guide I've ever read, to the point that I registered mostly to tell you this...)Why, you're welcome. That's very proud to hear.

Then...
1) I was wondering why so much emphasis has been given (apart from personal preference) to tank/control (Gastronomie) or support (DBZ); seems to me that this class could have one of the highest DPRs in 5e (I'm not talking of 15-20lvls which I rarely experienced, but of 10-15lvls). 2 attacks -- 2 smites using 4th level slots + quickened fireball/inflict wounds(oathbreaker3) using slots useless for smites (>4th level). If we assume having advantage, likely from precasted Greater Invisibility, or another attack from Haste, that looks like a ton of damage... Shouldn't we focus on optimizing this? Well, actually, that's because you actually don't need focus on optimizing damage; you already have it as a core ability. All you need is Divine Smite and Quickened Spell (and Extra Attack, possibly). All of these are stuff you get without dedicated optimization, being in the premise of the build itself.
Thus, if you want to be a DPR monster, you don't need optimization; you can just build a normal Sorcadin and decide to take that sort of method during actual gameplay.
However, overuse of Divine Smite can quickly burn through slots fast, and it's generally better to use spells. Divine Smite is a really good option for when you want to kill something real fast, or when you crit, but it's not something you necessarily use all the time.

What are y'alls thoughts on:

Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 12 (going to warlock 2 allows you to take the Agonizing Blast for Cha mod to eldritch blast)TBH going Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast is not a very good idea - not really bad either, but most of the time, not worth it. Getting a ranged attack option is good, but not worth 2 levels' delay in Sorcerer.

The only situation in which I think going Warlock 1 or 2 is "assertively recommended" is when the DM permits Undying Light + Draconic Sorcerer, but I don't allow Undying Light in my games. Even if I'm a player and the DM alllows me to use it I still wouldn't, because I personally don't like Undying Light's cheap design (during actual gameplay, I value personal liking over hardcore optimization).

The charisma to eldritch blast damage per ray sure is nice, but I think the real jewel of 2-level warlock dip is the spell slots which are recovered on short rests. True, they are only two per rest and only 1st-level. But that's two reliable slots between short rests to spend on smites if for nothing else.TBH I don't think the "gaining spell slots that re-charge on a short rest" is not as good at it may seem. For instance, between Pal 6/Sorc 14 and Pal 6/Sorc 12/Lock 2, the former gets 2 more Sorcery Points and a level 9 spell slot (as well as access to level 7 spells). In return, the latter gets 2 level 1 slots per short rest.

In terms of Sorcery Points, 6/12/2 needs to take 6 or more short rests per day to get on the same level. That is far from realistic.
In terms of level 1 spell slots, the former can use these 11 extra Sorcery Points to create 5 level 1 spell slots if he wants, meaning that if you get only one short rest per day, 6/14 is actually better at casting level 1 spells. Even if you get 2 short rests per day, it's about the same level.

Dipping Warlock should be done NOT for Agonizing Blast.
It should be done NOT for casting potential.

I think the main reasons to go are the Invocations, spells, and level 1 Patron abilities.

As already mentioned by Arkhios, Armor of Agathys is pretty interesting when upcast. Apart from that, a lot of the invocations are really interesting to use in RP moments. And for Sorcadins I think that Repelling Blast is better than Agonizing Blast, since it gives you a lot of field control - combine with stuff like Web or Wall of Fire for fun.

Raktus

2016-11-15, 11:18 PM

So, where would a Fallen Aasimar rank in a strength build versus a Human Variant?

Gastronomie

2016-11-16, 02:04 AM

So, where would a Fallen Aasimar rank in a strength build versus a Human Variant?Well, as aforementioned it's difficult for me to rate right now when I don't have the actual book until the end of this month. Will update once I get it.

Ghost Nappa

2016-11-16, 09:56 AM

Well, as aforementioned it's difficult for me to rate right now when I don't have the actual book until the end of this month. Will update once I get it.

I literally just got mine, so I'll see if I can't help provide an opinion.

Aasimar in General:
ASI: +2 CHA, +1 STR is perfect for the Paladin smiting parts of this build.
...
Darkvision: Always nice to have. 60' is nothing special.
Celestial Resistance: Necrotic resistance is extremely nice in campaigns where you fight a lot of undead. Radiant resistance is less useful but still appreciated.
Healing Hands: Free Healing? Sure! Not as strong as Lay on Hands, but it scales with level and can be used as a band-aid. Unlike Lay on Hands, you can only use it once per Long rest.
Light Bearer: You already have Darkvision, but free is free.

Necrotic Shroud: As an action, you grow scary wings - that cannot be used to fly - which causes all creatures in 10' to face a CHA saving throw Vs. Fright. In addition, you do extra necrotic damage when you hit something with a melee attack or a spell.

TBH, I don't like Necrotic Shroud. The wings are merely ornamental unlike Protector Aasimar who can actually fly! While it does use a rarely possessed saving throw in Charisma, it also affects allies. This is less of an issue if you got your Paladin Aura's, but you do not ever want to give your allies disadvantage on anything.

Even if Protector Aasimar get a +1 WIS over STR, I think they get the best minute-long ability of the three because it doesn't discourage your allies from standing near you in melee. (Unlike Scourge which punishes EVERYTHING a little bit every round, and Fallen which discourages them once but at a significant price if they fail.)

Clone

2016-11-17, 08:52 PM

What would you suggest a level 6 Sorcadin using a greatsword do? Assuming no Shadow Sorcerer, at least. Would it be fine to go Paladin 3/ Fire Draconic Sorcerer X while picking up GWM, using GFB? I know the damage from the extra attack would be better, but for the sake of getting to the higher spells faster in a mid level campaign, is the damage that much higher? (going to around 10/12)?

DivisibleByZero

2016-11-19, 11:10 AM

3) For DBZ: I was thinking to a Sorcadin build similar to yours, but I chose Str over Dex, what convinced you to go Dex instead? (I see the point if Str requirement for multiclassing is removed, but otherwise I find there's little to be gained)

I'm of the opposing viewpoint. I see there to be little reason to go Str based.
The few points that it takes to get the Str req covered on a build is almost a non-issue on an Half-Elf, as you can get that 13 Str while still starting with 16/14/16 in Dex/Con/Cha respectively. If you start Pally, you get Wis saves, so that weakness from a -1 mod is shored up a bit and grows over time. You're eventually going to take War Caster (or Res:Con, but I completely prefer WC) to help with those saves. Int is a dump stat, with no loss by dumping it as Int saves are exceedingly rare and if you want Investigation the proficiency bonus covers the loss. You get a +1 to Str saves and checks, not great, but also not needed much if you have Acro prof. You have comparable AC. But you also have much much better Dex saves and checks, and with the right background and/or skill choices, you become significantly more well rounded.
Dex simply gives you more bang for your buck, with almost no downsides to go with it.
Obviously this position is highly debated, but that is indeed my position.

With a Half-Elf Pally2/SorcX, if you start Pally, go Dex based, choose or create a background with stealth and thieves' tools, and favor CC/AoE/Buff spells, there is damned near nothing that you can't do at least marginally well. The same can't be said of a Str build.
I prefer Dex over Str because it makes an already flexible character much moreso.

Sarnax

2016-11-19, 08:39 PM

Hey all,

So I am making a new character for a game. DM rolled stats for me and I got 18, 14, 15, 14, 16, 14. Character level 10.
I am wanting to go with a dex based Sorcadin. Current party has a Devotion/Sentinel/Shield Master Pally, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Warlock(All lvl 10)

I am looking on advice and insight on races to consider as I can't really decide, Scourge Aasimar? Also what to do with ASI's? Is War Caster required? Or only if the DM requires somatic components? One of feat I would like thoughts on is Defensive Duelist?

Also, given my stat rolls. I open to any suggestions outside of dex Sorcadin if something comes to mind to any who help me.

Thank you.

P.S. I should also mention the campaign is set in FR just after the spellplague and the DM is not allowing any magic over 5th level. Also, will be given a magic item by the DM, fitting the character I make.

Gastronomie

2016-11-20, 11:10 AM

@DBZ: Well, that is interesting. If you think of switching from STR to DEX as "the cost of 1 feat/ASI", it's arguably one that's worth it...

Hey all,

So I am making a new character for a game. DM rolled stats for me and I got 18, 14, 15, 14, 16, 14. Character level 10.
I am wanting to go with a dex based Sorcadin. Current party has a Devotion/Sentinel/Shield Master Pally, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Warlock(All lvl 10)

I am looking on advice and insight on races to consider as I can't really decide, Scourge Aasimar? Also what to do with ASI's? Is War Caster required? Or only if the DM requires somatic components? One of feat I would like thoughts on is Defensive Duelist?

Also, given my stat rolls. I open to any suggestions outside of dex Sorcadin if something comes to mind to any who help me.

Thank you.

P.S. I should also mention the campaign is set in FR just after the spellplague and the DM is not allowing any magic over 5th level. Also, will be given a magic item by the DM, fitting the character I make.ohai~~

War Caster is good, regardless of whether somatic components are required or not. However, if your DM says the component issue can be taken care of, Resilient (CON) becomes another option, depending on how you arrange stats (if the +1 CON can bump up your CON, Resilient can be good, but otherwise go War Caster all the way).

And sorry, I cannot say for sure about the Aasimar race since I do not have Volo's yet. But god, are those stats awesome. As for the other races - for one thing, there is little reason to go Variant Human with those stats, looking at the stuff below:

For Variant Human it'd be:
14-18-15-14-14-16 (@Original)
14-18-16-14-14-17 (@Racial Bonus)
14-18-17-14-14-17 (@Resilient CON via V-Human)
14-20-17-14-14-17 (@First ASI)
14-20-18-14-14-18 (@Second ASI)

For Half-Elf it'd be:
14-18-15-14-14-16 (@Original)
14-19-16-14-14-18 (@Racial Bonus)
14-20-17-14-14-18 (@First ASI)
14-20-18-14-14-18 (@Second ASI for Resilient CON)

...Meaning that going Half-Elf > going V-Human if you're gonna take Resilient. With the racial bonuses of Half-Elves and V-Humans, it's impossible to get both DEX and CHA to 20 at level 10 while also taking either Resilient (CON) or War Caster. And I think the same applies for all the other races as well. I think putting both DEX and CHA to 20 is top priority.

I think that Defensive Duelist is "good, but not amazing" for Sorcadins. At least based on STR Sorcadin experience, as mentioned above, I think pumping your CHA to max using ASIs is more important. After that, it could be a good idea if you want, but be aware that using up your reaction makes you a worse sentinel (if you're going 6/X and wish to be one. Otherwise, not much of a problem).

If your DM says no high-level spells, you might as well stop Sorcerer at 10. After Paladin 6/Sorcerer 10, you could perhaps go Bard, or Fighter, or Rogue, or Warlock or whatever. You do have the stats required to multiclass in anything...

DivisibleByZero

2016-11-21, 08:24 PM

@DBZ: Well, that is interesting. If you think of switching from STR to DEX as "the cost of 1 feat/ASI", it's arguably one that's worth it...

Precisely. And thanks.
If you look at the build I posted a while back and you take a closer look at his proficiencies, both skill and saves, and take his stats into account, you'll see what I mean about there being damned near nothing that he can't do at least marginally well.
That list basically amounts to Animal Handling, Survival, Knowledge skills, and Intelligence saves. And even in the case of knowledge skills, that's only for things I need to know right now. If I have time to search for the answer, I have investigation proficiency. Medicine? He has Cure Wounds and Lay On Hands.

Gastronomie

2016-11-21, 09:05 PM

Precisely. And thanks.
If you look at the build I posted a while back and you take a closer look at his proficiencies, both skill and saves, and take his stats into account, you'll see what I mean about there being damned near nothing that he can't do at least marginally well.
That list basically amounts to Animal Handling, Survival, Knowledge skills, and Intelligence saves. And even in the case of knowledge skills, that's only for things I need to know right now. If I have time to search for the answer, I have investigation proficiency. Medicine? He has Cure Wounds and Lay On Hands.That brings me to think that our initial disagreement of "which is better, 2/18 or 6/14" may have to do with preference between STR and DEX. DEX builds will have lower CON (lower HP) and lower AC (plate has better AC than any medium or light armor), making them not as effective as STR builds at being a tank. But in exchange, DEX builds are more versatile.

Possibly, it might be the case that "STR builds are better off going 6/14, and DEX builds are better off going 2/18". Can't say for sure, but perhaps.

Spiritchaser

2016-11-21, 10:32 PM

I think it might also be the case that the new asimar and yuan ti races are more disposed to strength builds, or at least, they cannot get so much out of a dex build. Given no racial skills, a dex build will only have skills from their background and class. That means they cannot have stealth (a big advantage of dex builds) without giving up perception. Now: you don't NEED perception, but you almost do. This isn't a problem that a half elf (for example) has. They can optimize a dex build, get stealthy, and still have proficiency in perception.

Yes one could drop another ASI, but a sword and board dex build is pretty strained on that count already.

Carlos Barreto

2016-11-22, 03:24 PM

Congratulations! It's a great guide!

I'm currently playing a Fighter 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer Favored Soul 6 and it's amazing.

My multiclass sequence was that:

Fighter 1: CON proficiency it's the main reason. So there's no need to to pick a feat-tax to bolster you concentration check. CON save is also very useful. STR save is a small and useful extra since it helps to avoid knockdown.

Another big bonus were Fighting Style and Second Wind. Having TWO fighting styles helps make you a better warrior and Second Wind works like a bonus action Cure Wounds restrict to yourself for free at every short rest.

Sorcerer 6: Because you want 3rd level spells (CL 6) and Extra Attack (CL 7) as soon as possible. Using spells like Shield and Blur for defense (combined with Heavy Armor Master and Plate Armor) and Green-Flame Blade for offense made my character a respectable frontline warrior. Things become even better when I picked Great Weapon Master.

Paladin 1 & 2: The first Paladin level just meh. The real boost came with Paladin 2. At this point, I can use 4th level spells because the added levels of Sorcerer (full caster) and Paladin (half-caster) gives me 4th level slots (Caster level 7). Extra Attack, Divine Smite, Two Fighting Styles (Great Weapon Master and Defence), AoE spells like Fireball and Lighting Bolt and Quickened Spell + Empowered Spell. I just love to Slash & Blast my foes, all in the same turn. Critical smites are incredibily fun.

That said, my main idea is to go Fighter 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer Favored Soul 17, mainly because of the 9th level spells. However, I would only receive them at level 20. Since our short rests takes about 5-15 minutes (Heroic Rest from DMG), I'm considering seriously the possibility to take another Fighter level, so the final result would be Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Sorcerer Favored Soul 16. If I follow this option, I could combine Action Surge + Divine Smite with 4th level spells (I use Spell Points, so I can handle multiple full powered, 4th level Smites) for when I wish to go Final Fantasy Limite Break mode.

What do you think, guys? Is that worthy the losing of one spell (the 15th spell at Sorcerer 17), one metamagic option, level 9th spells and 1 Sorcery Point?

Specter

2016-11-22, 03:55 PM

Good guide, m8. One thing you should do, though, is put those gifs in spoiler. They almost crashed my phone.

Something else you could do if you feel like it is rate the Cleric domains for favored soul, I'm having trouble picking one, as simple as it seems.

Specter

2016-11-22, 03:57 PM

What do you think, guys? Is that worthy the losing of one spell (the 15th spell at Sorcerer 17), one metamagic option, level 9th spells and 1 Sorcery Point?

Yep. Action Surge is already very powerful by itself (two spells in one round? Quickened Spell and four attacks? Yes please), and with that epic rule in place it's practically gamebreaker.

Arkhios

2016-11-22, 04:36 PM

DrDinocrusher

2016-11-23, 04:29 AM

This seems like a really interesting build I might have to put onto my (large!) slate of upcoming characters to play in the AL haha. I haven't played a GWM character yet so I'd be interested in taking that approach to it. In that spirit, I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Race: undecided! A Triton would be an ideal choice of course given that it gets boosts to every stat I'd be interested in for a GWM build, as well as bringing some racial spells to the table. Otherwise a half-elf is ideal, and the route I'd like to go if an official UA/PHB2 book comes out next year so I could actually use it. Until then though I'm proceeding with what we have now.

Race: Triton

Str: 16

Con: 15

Dex: 12

Int: 8

Wis: 13

Cha: 15

Now the main problem is that to make a full on anime character, I'd like to squeeze in fighter 3 (battlemaster), Paladin 3 (devotion), Sorcerer (Dragonblood) X. Battlemaster gives me a short rest resource and more flexibility, while also providing damage. The main hitch I'm running into is how to map out the progression - no matter how I slice it, it's awkward to take two classes to level 3 and will seriously mess with my ASI progression although something like gauntlets of Ogre strength would solve it rather handily. I might just end up going fighter 3 then paladin 3 and then sorcerer the rest of the way - while this doesn't get me an ASI until level 10, the fighter/paladin levels will make a me a tough enough bruiser in the meantime. Alternatively, I'll go fighter 1 -> paladin 3 -> Sorcerer 5 -> fighter 2+3. I'll get my ASI at level 8 (GWM probably), and get access to those sweet, sweet level 3 sorcerer spells.

yourself196

2016-11-29, 04:39 PM

How are you meeting the material/arcane focus requirements for casting the sorcerer spells?

A lot of the recommended spells have a material requirement.

Arkhios

2016-11-29, 04:44 PM

How are you meeting the material/arcane focus requirements for casting the sorcerer spells?

A lot of the recommended spells have a material requirement.

Use an arcane focus staff as your weapon, as they can double as quarterstaves (but not the other way around).

DivisibleByZero

2016-11-30, 07:06 AM

How are you meeting the material/arcane focus requirements for casting the sorcerer spells?

A lot of the recommended spells have a material requirement.

War Caster and a spell component pouch.

Ravinsild

2016-11-30, 03:11 PM

Is this build any good as a pure Blaster/DPR sort of character? Full offensive artillery just laying down the pain with sword and spell? Or is that another job? What's the best Blaster/Striker gish?

Georlik

2016-12-01, 12:25 PM

Staff and Shield users are basically the same as what you have listed for Longsword users, except that they don't need Warcaster.

Well, by RAW, staffs and quarterstaffs seem like different stuff.

The magic staff was intended to be used as a quarterstaff, which is also confirmed bu the following:

A magic staff is about 5 or 6 feet long. Staffs vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. Depending on the material, a staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds. Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/11/focus-staff/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/20/can-i-use-arcane-focus-staff-as-a-quarterstaff-in-melee/

So yeah, my Sorcadin will be wielding a staff and a shield, thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:

OhmyApollo

2016-12-07, 01:39 PM

So i only skimmed the thread slightly...Anyone have any progression advice? Currently joining a campaign at level 2... Dont' know if I should go Pally 2, or Pally 1/Sorc 1.

Foxhound438

2016-12-07, 04:45 PM

It's because Sorcerer gets Quicken spell which takes up your bonus action. PAM uses your bonus action as well. It's not that PAM is bad, but why whack a mole with the butt end of your stick when you can quicken a Booming Blade/GFB? It just adds more competition for action economy.

i've had this conversation before on other threads, but the big complaint is that for you to get good DPR you have to blow resources if your only answer is quicken spells- with PAM on the other hand, you get the option to deal only marginally worse damage while quickening, or you can deal decent standard damage with the PAM attack in fights that you don't want or need to nova in.

Also PAM gives a reaction attack occasionally, and that actually works great with booming blade and warcaster in your kit.

DivisibleByZero

2016-12-07, 06:46 PM

Zene

2016-12-07, 07:25 PM

Hi folks,
So I could use some advice.

Quick background:

My Half-elf sorcadin just hit Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 3.
I play Adventurers' League, so I can still do a free rebuild if I want to change anything before I play my first session at 5.
I just obtained the Staff of Swarming Insects. One of the things it can do is use a charge to create a cloud of harmless insects, centered on me for 10 mins, that causes the area to be heavily obscured for everyone but me. I can safely do this 1d6+4 times per day (so like virtually every combat, in my experience). I read this as similar to the darkness/devil's sight combo -- I can see my targets, but they can't see me, so I get advantage on attacks, and they get disadvantage. I'm also pretty sure the DMs I play with will interpret it this way as well. (If you have a different interpretation, that's cool, but it's not one of my questions.)

Question 1: Metamagic

I was planning on taking quicken (of course); and careful, because I love the idea of being a crowd controller. But, I was always a bit conflicted about careful vs. twinned...being able to quicken a booming blade, then twin a booming blade with my action, and smite on all three hits.... man that's a lot of awesomeness. Now that I will likely have advantage on all attacks because of the staff, I'm leaning even more towards it. Is this a no-brainer? Or should I consider sticking with Careful?
Note that spending more time casting cantrips and smites (via twinned booming blade), and less time casting actual sorcerer spells, conflicts with the Wild Mage goal of maximizing surges. So I'll probably only do this when I really want to burst down an opponent.

Question 2: Feats/ASI

I had taken Warcaster at 4. But now with the staff, I'll have an arcane focus in my hand at all times (planning on using it as a weapon). And of course the divine focus on my shield. Plus, enemies will have disadvantage on attacking me (and my AC is great anyway, plus I've got the Shield spell), so I'll be making fewer concentration checks. The third advantage of the feat --opportunity attack with a spell for locking folks down with booming blade-- is still pretty sweet though, especially since with disadvantage foes are less likely to want to stick next to me. But is another feat now better? Resilient? Polearm Master? Cha or Str ASI? I'm guessing no, Warcaster is just too good, but wanted to get yall's thoughts.

Arkhios

2016-12-08, 01:58 AM

So i only skimmed the thread slightly...Anyone have any progression advice? Currently joining a campaign at level 2... Dont' know if I should go Pally 2, or Pally 1/Sorc 1.

If you have a reason relevant to you character's backstory that would require having both aspects from the start, then by all means, go Pally 1/Sorc 1, but I would recommend taking Pally 2 ASAP at 3rd level.

Otherwise go Pally 2 immediately and take sorc 1 at 3rd level.

While Divine Sense and Lay on Hands might seem to be a bit lame abilities for 1st level paladin, they do represent the unique connection a paladin has with the divine. This alone is (if you can look past the power-gaming point of view) quite good to start with.

However, there's no denying how much a paladin's effectiveness in combat improves at 2nd level with the access to Divine Smite and the Fighting Style, not to mention the paladin spells which are quite great as well (bless, cure wounds, divine favor, and shield of faith all come to mind immediately, but there are other good spells too).

Hi folks,
So I could use some advice.

Quick background:

My Half-elf sorcadin just hit Pal 2 / Wild Sorc 3.

Question 2: Feats/ASI

I had taken Warcaster at 4.

How exactly have you taken War Caster at 4, if you are playing Adventurer's League by the book? The feats/ASI depend on your class level, not on your character level as in previous editions. With your current build (and from how you presented it, I assume you have played this specific build up to this point), you would've had to wait for either paladin 4 or sorcerer 4 to get the ASI.

If the above build is what you have been playing with, your character has been illegal, if you have taken War Caster at 4th character level where you, rules as written, could not.

Zene

2016-12-08, 10:09 AM

How exactly have you taken War Caster at 4, if you are playing Adventurer's League by the book? The feats/ASI depend on your class level, not on your character level as in previous editions. With your current build (and from how you presented it, I assume you have played this specific build up to this point), you would've had to wait for either paladin 4 or sorcerer 4 to get the ASI.

Ah, thanks for the catch! You are absolutely right. I jumped the gun, and will not pick up a feat til 6.

I actually have only played it at levels 1,2, and 3; as soon as I got enough xp to hit 4 --after last session-- I used the AL "catching up" rule to hit 5th level. So I haven't yet played it at 4 or 5.

So yeah, the question is really what feat to pick up next level at Pal 2 / Sorc 4. (And the metamagic question, which is still applicable at current level)

Raktus

2016-12-12, 11:30 AM

If you are going DEX build in this, is it still worthwhile to shoot for Plate armor if your strength is less than the requirement?

I rolled up a character that only had 12 STR but got 16 DEX (+2 to 18 for going Tabaxi). With the Draconic Bloodline and a shield, without armor, the character is sitting on 19 AC at the moment with no disadvantage to stealth. Is upgrading to Plate and taking the Defensive Fighting Style worth the hit to speed and stealth for +2 AC?

Specter

2016-12-12, 12:48 PM

I never understood the argument that having more options for your bonus action was a *bad* thing....
The whole idea of "competition for your bonus action" is garbage IMHO. having more options is a benefit, not a hindrance.

I guess the point is that if you've already got some permanent bonus action business like PAM, then others don't have as much value as they would have by themselves.

Klorox

2016-12-12, 12:58 PM

Raktus

2016-12-12, 01:06 PM

No.

Go one way or the other.

BTW, RAW you can't multiclass a paladin without a 13 or higher STR.

Was a typo, I meant 13 STR. Would it be worth more to invest the STR up at every fourth level, or take the 19 AC as best?

Specter

2016-12-12, 01:13 PM

Was a typo, I meant 13 STR. Would it be worth more to invest the STR up at every fourth level, or take the 19 AC as best?

Take 19. It's better to just cast Shield of Faith than to waste an ASI only for that.

Fable Wright

2016-12-19, 04:30 PM

Just posting to mention that the new Paladin Oaths (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UAPaladin_SO_20161219_1.pdf) from Unearthed Arcana deserve some mention in the handbook. Oath of Conquest grants the amazing Armor of Agathys, making the Warlock dip unnecessary and has the Guided Strike ability as a non-action Channel Divinity, which is interesting. The 7th+ level features are meh, but it still makes for great multiclassing.

Oath of Treachery is worth a mention next to Oath of Devotion, as Advantage on all attack rolls vs. Charisma to rolls for a minute is good, and the 7th level feature actually provides a fairly substantial bonus, granting Advantage to let you use Channel Devotion for bonus damage along with adding good Reaction damage a few times per rest.

Arkhios

2016-12-19, 05:31 PM

Ursus the Grim

2016-12-22, 04:08 PM

This has to be one of the most comprehensive guides I've seen in a while, and I've referred to it a few times - though only now am I getting around to building my very own sorcadin. I'm a huge fan of Volo's and can't wait to see what you do with it.

Here's a character I'm planning out.

Yuan-Ti: Resistance to Magic, Immunity to Poison, +2 Cha, +1 Int. Some spells (notably, Suggestion, Acid Splash, and Animal Friendship) from CHA.

Challenges: In Adventurer's League, playing a Volo's race precludes use of other source books. So no GFB. Racial bonuses aren't great for Sorcadin ability scores.

I was originally leaning towards Sword and Board for tankiness, but realized that you listed GFB as mandatory for that style, and I wasn't keen on War Caster for a build that was already looking pretty ASI starved. Even if I did go S&B, I'd have to play the first five levels like a GWM if I wanted to cast spells in combat.

I opted to defy the suggestion of Resilient (Con) because the Immunity to Poison, Magic Resistance, and +Cha to saves feel like enough to patch that weakness up. And because I couldn't max out a stat if I took it.

General Advancement
Paladin 6/Sorc 14 Path (because I like Sorcerer roughly twice as much as I like Paladin)

2 Levels of Paladin -> 6 Levels of Sorc -> 4 Levels of Paladin -> X Levels of Sorc

Ability Scores
Working off of a 27 point buy, I took the following array before racials.
15/10/12/9/10/15
I could also have gone 14 in Con, which would look good, but I'd have to dump Dex and Wisdom both down to 8 and I'd have one wasted point.

ASIs were going to be GWM -> +1 to STR and CHA -> +2 STR -> +2 STR

Spells
Would avoid casting Concentration spells when I realistically expect to get hit.

Mostly followed your suggestions here. Didn't take Haste because of the aforementioned Concentration problems. Took Stinking Cloud because I'm immune to poison.

Hakon

2016-12-29, 08:34 AM

Ahh young grasshopper, you have done well with your min-maxing, but you have oh so much to learn.....

Ok i felt in your multi-classing and weapons options you have missed a vital exploit with warlock, especially the undying light.

A 3 level dip into warlock is crucial, and here is why:
when you take warlock (any) you must choose pact of the tome.
this allows you to add cantrips from any class to your spell list.
you must choose Shillelagh, these cantrips are counted as warlock cantrips, as such by choosing Shillelagh this way rather then a feat, it works off charisma, not wisdom.

now we use our sorcerer arcane focus (staff) as a quarter staff, which we cast Shillelagh on, this means our quarter staff now hits on charisma+proficiency
and damages on 1d6+cha or 1d8+cha if used 2 handed (which we will do) and this damage is magical.

by taking the oath devotion we can further buff our Shillelagh quarter staff to add charisma to hit.
now we have a weapon which does cha+cha+proficiency to hit.

by level 12 I would recommend starting with 4 sorcerer, then 4 warlock, then 4 paladin for maximum melee.
or sorcerer 6, warlock 3, paladin 3 for a bit more all rounder.

the goal by 20 is to be: Sorcerer 12, warlock 4, paladin 4.

Our feats and upgrades can then be:
human variant: war caster
sorc 4: +2 cha
Lock 4: +2 cha
Paladin 4: Great weapon master
sorc 8: Sentinal
sorc 12: Polearm master.

our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark

this means:
enter reach, free attack
leave reach, free attack
move 5ft while in reach, free attack
may attack with opportunity attack
disadvantage to anyone not attacking you in reach
movement becomes 0 if you hit them

our Versatile Quarter staff is a Two handed weapon, a polearm weapon, a Shillelagh weapon and an arcane focus all in one.
we can power attack and cleave with it.
and we can combine with a GFB to reap crazy benefits

Level 12 Sorc4/Lock4/Paladin4
not power attacking +14 to hit
average 3d8+5+5=23.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
max=34

Power attack +9 to hit
average 3d8+5+5+10=33.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
max 44

Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +9 to hit
average 31.5
max=45

Level 20
Power attack with +3 quarter staff +14 to hit
average 5d8+5+5+5+10=50.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
Max=68

Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +11 to hit
average 52.5
Max =75

however GFB can be quickened to be used twice and if we add in your lvl 4 smite.
+3 Q.Staff, Shillelagh, Sacred weapon, lvl4 Smite, Power Attack.
average=78
Max=113

all of this is single target though.

if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
Max(hit 8)=920

add in 8 level 4 smites
=1280

name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.

that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.

and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.

more to follow....

Klorox

2016-12-29, 08:46 AM

Ursus the Grim

2016-12-29, 10:51 AM

Ok i felt in your multi-classing and weapons options you have missed a vital exploit with warlock, especially the undying light.

I feel like tri-classing defeats the point of a sorcadin guide.

arcane focus (staff) as a quarter staff, which we cast Shillelagh on, this means our quarter staff now hits on charisma+proficiency
and damages on 1d6+cha or 1d8+cha if used 2 handed (which we will do) and this damage is magical.

Versatile doesn't enter into it. Shillelagh sets the damage to 1d8.

by taking the oath devotion we can further buff our Shillelagh quarter staff to add charisma to hit.
now we have a weapon which does cha+cha+proficiency to hit.

For one minute, at the cost of your Channel Divinity and an Action. So you're already an Action behind.

our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark

And now we're starting to see justification for the D&D AL rules of 'PHB+1' that everyone seems to hate.

if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
Max(hit 8)=920

add in 8 level 4 smites
=1280

name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.

Sorcerer 20?

While we're coming up with unrealistic, optimal scenarios, here's one.

Fire Draconic Sorcerer throws a 9th level Quickened Fireball into a horde of twig blights. They all fail their saves and he rolls maximum damage.

A Fireball can envelop 44 squares, each of which is going to take 2x(84+5) damage. That's a maximum of 7832 damage as a bonus action.

Using this calculation (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/48988/how-to-calculate-the-expected-damage-increase-from-empowered-spell), he can Empower the spell to deal an average of 53 fire damage on those rolls, or 2x(53+5) damage to 44 creatures. That's an average of 5104 damage as a Bonus action for the cost of 3 sorcery points.

that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.

How so? You're burning quickens and Channel Divinity. You only have 12 Sorcery points to burn, and if you're throwing smites you've got less spell slots to burn to get those points back. Also, how are you throwing eight Level 4 smites around? You only have three level 4 spell slots, and it costs half of your sorcery points to create another one.

and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.

I'm definitely not worthy of the epithet 'Minmaxer with a capital M', but I assure you there are people on these boards that can teach us both a thing or two about optimization, both practical and theoretical. :smallbiggrin:

Zene

2016-12-29, 11:05 AM

You only have three level 4 spell slots, and it costs half of your sorcery points to create another one.

...costs half your sorc points, and a bonus action. Further eating into your dpr.

Gignere

2016-12-29, 09:34 PM

Ahh young grasshopper, you have done well with your min-maxing, but you have oh so much to learn.....

Our feats and upgrades can then be:
human variant: war caster
sorc 4: +2 cha
Lock 4: +2 cha
Paladin 4: Great weapon master
sorc 8: Sentinal
sorc 12: Polearm master.

our paladin fighting style is tunnel fighter, from light dark underdark

this means:
enter reach, free attack
leave reach, free attack
move 5ft while in reach, free attack
may attack with opportunity attack
disadvantage to anyone not attacking you in reach
movement becomes 0 if you hit them

our Versatile Quarter staff is a Two handed weapon, a polearm weapon, a Shillelagh weapon and an arcane focus all in one.
we can power attack and cleave with it.
and we can combine with a GFB to reap crazy benefits

Level 12 Sorc4/Lock4/Paladin4
not power attacking +14 to hit
average 3d8+5+5=23.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
max=34

Power attack +9 to hit
average 3d8+5+5+10=33.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
max 44

Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +9 to hit
average 31.5
max=45

Level 20
Power attack with +3 quarter staff +14 to hit
average 5d8+5+5+5+10=50.5 and you re-roll all 1's and 2's
Max=68

Lock with eldritch blast and agonising blast +11 to hit
average 52.5
Max =75

however GFB can be quickened to be used twice and if we add in your lvl 4 smite.
+3 Q.Staff, Shillelagh, Sacred weapon, lvl4 Smite, Power Attack.
average=78
Max=113

all of this is single target though.

if your level 20 Sorc 12/Lock 4/Paladin 4 had 8 enemies charge him and surround him he could pump out:
average (assume 1 miss so 7 hit) 777
Max(hit 8)=920

add in 8 level 4 smites
=1280

name another class that can pump that kind of punishment out.

that 777 average damage can be pumped out all day everyday while you are breathing.

and that right their is why i earned the nickname Minmaxer.

more to follow....

This grand old master is senile since us young grasshoppers realizes that you can't power attack with a quarterstaff. It is easy to min/max if you homebrew.

Hakon

2016-12-30, 03:23 AM

I feel like tri-classing defeats the point of a sorcadin guide.

there is a section on further multi classing, i feel the lock needs to be bumped up in desire, and more options listed.

Versatile doesn't enter into it. Shillelagh sets the damage to 1d8.

use it 2 handed to apply the great weapon feat

For one minute, at the cost of your Channel Divinity and an Action. So you're already an Action behind.

to make our accuracy sky rocket, worth it in the long run.

And now we're starting to see justification for the D&D AL rules of 'PHB+1' that everyone seems to hate.

if you can use it use it.

Sorcerer 20?

you read wrong, level 20...... sorcerer 12/ lock 4/ paladin 4

While we're coming up with unrealistic, optimal scenarios, here's one

Fire Draconic Sorcerer throws a 9th level Quickened Fireball into a horde of twig blights. They all fail their saves and he rolls maximum damage.

A Fireball can envelop 44 squares, each of which is going to take 2x(84+5) damage. That's a maximum of 7832 damage as a bonus action.

Using this calculation (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/48988/how-to-calculate-the-expected-damage-increase-from-empowered-spell), he can Empower the spell to deal an average of 53 fire damage on those rolls, or 2x(53+5) damage to 44 creatures. That's an average of 5104 damage as a Bonus action for the cost of 3 sorcery points..

which this character can do except he does 840 more average damage thanks to Undying light +5 fire damage, this was about sustainable damage

How so? You're burning quickens and Channel Divinity. You only have 12 Sorcery points to burn, and if you're throwing smites you've got less spell slots to burn to get those points back. Also, how are you throwing eight Level 4 smites around? You only have three level 4 spell slots, and it costs half of your sorcery points to create another one..

with the level 5 slots used as level 4 and converting all lower spells you have just enough to do it.
but the real value is just doing a level 1, so that you get the +5 damage to radiant damage from UL lock, an extra 1d8+5 on each attack should be able to be maintained for quite some time.

I'm definitely not worthy of the epithet 'Minmaxer with a capital M', but I assure you there are people on these boards that can teach us both a thing or two about optimization, both practical and theoretical. :smallbiggrin:

thats the point of these forums, share and learn.

Hakon

2016-12-30, 03:24 AM

This grand old master is senile since us young grasshoppers realizes that you can't power attack with a quarterstaff. It is easy to min/max if you homebrew.

what are you talking about? its a versatile weapon so counts as a two hander when used with 2 hands

Gignere

2016-12-30, 07:39 AM

what are you talking about? its a versatile weapon so counts as a two hander when used with 2 hands

Grand Old Master please put on your reading glasses GWM second bullet only applies to heavy weapons.

Ursus the Grim

2016-12-30, 08:45 AM

what are you talking about? its a versatile weapon so counts as a two hander when used with 2 hands

Assuming that you mean Great Weapon Master feat when you say Power Attack, this is irrelevant. GWM works with heavy weapons. Using the versatile property doesn't make it a heavy weapon.

This is why Monks (and halflings) can use a quarterstaff two-handed.

Repeat after me. "Nothing about Versatile makes a weapon count as Heavy."

you read wrong, level 20...... sorcerer 12/ lock 4/ paladin 4

No I didn't. I was offering Sorcerer 20 as a simple example of a character that can out damage this build in a given optimal scenario.

which this character can do except he does 840 more average damage thanks to Undying light +5 fire damage, this was about sustainable damage

Where are you getting 840 more damage from? 5 fire damage x 2 vulnerability x 44 targets= 440 damage.

Your build has, at best, 7th level spell slots and is incapable of casting a 9th level Fireball. You may be adding +5 fire damage to each creature, but you're losing 2d6 Fire damage. On average, you're dealing 4 damage less to each target than a sorcerer 20.

this was about sustainable damage

with the level 5 slots used as level 4 and converting all lower spells you have just enough to do it.

Clearly it wasn't about sustainable.

Hakon

2016-12-30, 11:03 PM

Assuming that you mean Great Weapon Master feat when you say Power Attack, this is irrelevant. GWM works with heavy weapons. Using the versatile property doesn't make it a heavy weapon.

This is why Monks (and halflings) can use a quarterstaff two-handed.

Repeat after me. "Nothing about Versatile makes a weapon count as Heavy."

ah, got that trick a while back from a paladin thread, never really checked their idea, however the +5 to hit from the paladin increases your accuracy to the point that your damage output per turn is slightly higher then using agonising eldritch blast, and you always have the option of using the longstaff home-brew weapon from the dm guild if your dm is nice, or could at high levels use a wish for a "heavy" quarter staff.

Martial Melee Weapon
Longstaff 5 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 7 lb. Heavy, reach, special, two-handed
This sturdy wooden pole is used to train warriors in the use of pikes and halberds. A longstaff offers reduced combat effectiveness compared to such weapons, but is quite inexpensive and may double as a trap-springing device.
The longstaff is considered to be a monk weapon, despite not fulfilling the requirements listed under the Martial Arts class feature. Monks may become proficient with longstaves by taking the Weapon Master feat. A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand, although its base damage becomes 1d6 when used in this manner.
A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

No I didn't. I was offering Sorcerer 20 as a simple example of a character that can out damage this build in a given optimal scenario.

Where are you getting 840 more damage from? 5 fire damage x 2 vulnerability x 44 targets= 440 damage.

Your build has, at best, 7th level spell slots and is incapable of casting a 9th level Fireball. You may be adding +5 fire damage to each creature, but you're losing 2d6 Fire damage. On average, you're dealing 4 damage less to each target than a sorcerer 20.

oh i thought you said level 9 sorcerer casting it, not level 9 spell, in that case my character averages only 2 dps lower per creature hit, 2d6 average is 7, and i do +5

Clearly it wasn't about sustainable.

you can easily sustain damage output by converting all spell slots 1st level in order to get maximum number of smites, in order to obtain the +5 from the Lock UL feature.

this would result in an extra 9.5 damage per enemy and could be done a huge number of times, however i would only do such a thing in a campaign like strand, where your facing numerous vampires and undead.

the point is to bring up a viable option as an alternative to just grabbing an agonising eldritch blast.
and i think this 3 level lock dip gives the sorcadin the way to not just keep up with a lock, but be a better despair then a lock.

Sicarius Victis

2016-12-30, 11:21 PM

Martial Melee Weapon
Longstaff 5 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 7 lb. Heavy, reach, special, two-handed
This sturdy wooden pole is used to train warriors in the use of pikes and halberds. A longstaff offers reduced combat effectiveness compared to such weapons, but is quite inexpensive and may double as a trap-springing device.
The longstaff is considered to be a monk weapon, despite not fulfilling the requirements listed under the Martial Arts class feature. Monks may become proficient with longstaves by taking the Weapon Master feat. A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand, although its base damage becomes 1d6 when used in this manner.
A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

As mentioned before, it's easy to be broken with homebrew. Particularly as that is a broken weapon concept in the first place.

you can easily sustain damage output by converting all spell slots 1st level in order to get maximum number of smites, in order to obtain the +5 from the Lock UL feature.

Except, you know, you explicitly stated using your higher level spell slots for Smites as well. It's also easy to be broken if you keep changing your mind about how you've already used your resources.

Also, a Versatile weapon wielded in two hands is not considered a Two-Handed weapon. They're two entirely different classes of weapon.

I'm starting to doubt that nickname story...

Hakon

2016-12-31, 03:07 AM

As mentioned before, it's easy to be broken with homebrew. Particularly as that is a broken weapon concept in the first place.

it is not a broken weapon concept, the designer was on point, he took a glaive, lowered its damage to a d8, like a quarter staff used in 2 hands, and made it count as a quarter staff, even allowing it to count as a monk weapon, which fits perfect, if you have never seen a martial arts movie where they fight with a 10ft+ bamboo pole, your living under a rock.

i'd allow any of my players to take it if they asked.

Except, you know, you explicitly stated using your higher level spell slots for Smites as well. It's also easy to be broken if you keep changing your mind about how you've already used your resources.

That was to demonstrate maximum damage in such a situation as to require radiant damage, the point is demonstrate how over powered this particular build is so as to demon straight to the original guide why the warlock entry needs some extra information added as to possible combinations, and to increase its value as a choice.

Also, a Versatile weapon wielded in two hands is not considered a Two-Handed weapon. They're two entirely different classes of weapon.

Versatile: This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property–the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.

I'm starting to doubt that nickname story...

don't care

Ravinsild

2016-12-31, 03:23 AM

djreynolds

2016-12-31, 03:28 AM

Well you can still use great weapon style with a quarterstaff since it is versatile and reroll 1s and 2s.

And the only thing needed for the bonus action attack in GWM is a kill or crit and melee weapon...

Sicarius Victis

2016-12-31, 04:16 AM

it is not a broken weapon concept, the designer was on point, he took a glaive, lowered its damage to a d8, like a quarter staff used in 2 hands, and made it count as a quarter staff, even allowing it to count as a monk weapon, which fits perfect, if you have never seen a martial arts movie where they fight with a 10ft+ bamboo pole, your living under a rock.

Yeah. A one-handed, Heavy/Reach monk weapon. I see no problems there.

In particular, I see no problems with (A) the ability to dual-wield Heavy weapons, or (B) wield Heavy weapons and still have have a free hand for a shield or spellcasting. Nope, nothing broken here.

And no, it is not a "10+ feet" pole. As a weapon, they tend to be 6-8 feet, and not wieldable in one hand. I've actually used them, not just watched movies with them. I have a slightly better idea of ehat I'm talking about than you seem to.

That was to demonstrate maximum damage in such a situation as to require radiant damage, the point is demonstrate how over powered this particular build is so as to demon straight to the original guide why the warlock entry needs some extra information added as to possible combinations, and to increase its value as a choice.

That build was proven weaker than another build earlier, then when confronted on it you claimed it was still better because it was more sustainable. I'd suggest you make up your mind and stick to one story.

Versatile: This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property–the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.

That doesn't mean it's a Two-Handed weapon, it means it's a weapon wielded in two hands. Two-Handed is an entirely different weapon property from Versatile, as has been explicitly stated before. If you want to argue with my statement, please try to come up with an argument that hasn't already been disproven.

don't care

You don't have to, it doesn't change anything.

Also, are you getting passive-aggressive? It's starting to seem like you are.

Hakon

2016-12-31, 05:25 AM

Yeah. A one-handed, Heavy/Reach monk weapon. I see no problems there.

In particular, I see no problems with (A) the ability to dual-wield Heavy weapons, or (B) wield Heavy weapons and still have have a free hand for a shield or spellcasting. Nope, nothing broken here.

And no, it is not a "10+ feet" pole. As a weapon, they tend to be 6-8 feet, and not wieldable in one hand. I've actually used them, not just watched movies with them. I have a slightly better idea of ehat I'm talking about than you seem to.

Mate, it's two-handed if you read again.

That build was proven weaker than another build earlier, then when confronted on it you claimed it was still better because it was more sustainable. I'd suggest you make up your mind and stick to one story.

it wasn't proven weaker, damage per enemy is higher per enemy then a single fireball of 9th level with green flame blade (even without power attack), you are limited to how many enemies attack you, since you are theoretically able too put out 4d8+5fire+5fire+5charisma (33) primary hit, 3d8+5fire+5fire (23.5) secondary hit, and cleave once felling another enemy 1d8+5charisma (9.5) for a total of (66) compared to a fireball of 14d6+5fire (54)

if that 66 damage kills the enemy charging you, then another enemy can enter the vacant square effectively meaning you can hit and kill every enemy capable of charging you, this means if an enemy is able to move 30ft and charge 60 then you could potentially do (24 squaresx24squares-8 squares around you) 568 enemies x 66 equals 37,488 damage, if your vs wolves or beasts that move 50ft and charge 100ft thats 1592 enemies surrounding you, so you can do 105,072 average damage to that many enemies. oh andd that many enemies would have 80 crates so we can add 7d8 (31.5)x80 to that
thats 107,592 damage

That doesn't mean it's a Two-Handed weapon, it means it's a weapon wielded in two hands. Two-Handed is an entirely different weapon property from Versatile, as has been explicitly stated before. If you want to argue with my statement, please try to come up with an argument that hasn't already been disproven.

i understand what your saying, not sure how this effects us, none of the rules i use specify requiring 2 handed only

You don't have to, it doesn't change anything.

Also, are you getting passive-aggressive? It's starting to seem like you are.

No mate, i simply just don't care about your opinion of me, i don't know you, i'm not on here to win a popularity award, i am here to learn things (like the clarification of power attack, thank-you) so i can min max even in situations where i meet a dm who only allows PHB and SC.

CaptainSarathai

2016-12-31, 06:15 AM

I posted some time last month but I agree that when it comes to Tri-classing this build, Warlock is the best. I'd lean heavily towards Tome3, going Undying Light if UA is available, or Fiend if not.
You're giving up some Daily spell slots, Extra Attack, and +Cha to Saves to do it. You're also losing 1-2 ASIs over the normal Sorcadin build, or cutting your higher levels of Sorc.

The only reason I would consider leaving it out of the guide is that it would really take up quite a bit of space on its own, and building to go 3 class with Lock changes some of the other priorities around.
I'd almost like to see another guide (me, or someone else) but don't think there's enough content specifically pertaining to a Lock/Pally/Sorc and GFB build.

Sicarius Victis

2016-12-31, 06:46 AM

Mate, it's two-handed if you read again.

I quote: "A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand". I think you'll find it's you who needs to read again.

it wasn't proven weaker, damage per enemy is higher per enemy then a single fireball of 9th level with green flame blade (even without power attack), you are limited to how many enemies attack you, since you are theoretically able too put out 4d8+5fire+5fire+5charisma (33) primary hit, 3d8+5fire+5fire (23.5) secondary hit, and cleave once felling another enemy 1d8+5charisma (9.5) for a total of (66) compared to a fireball of 14d6+5fire (54)

if that 66 damage kills the enemy charging you, then another enemy can enter the vacant square effectively meaning you can hit and kill every enemy capable of charging you, this means if an enemy is able to move 30ft and charge 60 then you could potentially do (24 squaresx24squares-8 squares around you) 568 enemies x 66 equals 37,488 damage, if your vs wolves or beasts that move 50ft and charge 100ft thats 1592 enemies surrounding you, so you can do 105,072 average damage to that many enemies. oh andd that many enemies would have 80 crates so we can add 7d8 (31.5)x80 to that
thats 107,592 damage

I'll take your word for it. Given that I never have been and undoubtedly never will be in a situation with 1592 enemies charging me, I'll never truly be capable of proving that right or wrong. Though, where does the cleave part come in?

i understand what your saying, not sure how this effects us, none of the rules i use specify requiring 2 handed only

The point is, it's not a Two-Handed weapon. The point that you've been arguing against the whole time.

No mate, i simply just don't care about your opinion of me, i don't know you, i'm not on here to win a popularity award, i am here to learn things (like the clarification of power attack, thank-you) so i can min max even in situations where i meet a dm who only allows PHB and SC.

And yet, you had to make a point of the nickname. The one you wouldn't even have bothered mentioning if you didn't care.

Also, this isn't "only PHB and SC". There's also a congregation of some of the most broken parts of UA thrown in there as well.

Hakon

2016-12-31, 08:15 AM

I quote: "A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand". I think you'll find it's you who needs to read again.

didn't read the monk crap, only saw it said monk weapon, its kinda bull in one way bot its only d6 damage, no different to a quarter staff, I'm on the fence about, on the one hand I've seen it done in movies, on the other i could see how being able to power attack an off hand attack could be op.

I'll take your word for it. Given that I never have been and undoubtedly never will be in a situation with 1592 enemies charging me, I'll never truly be capable of proving that right or wrong. Though, where does the cleave part come in?

you started that line of thinking with your 2 fireballs hit an enemy in every square, my original damage claim was based of being surrounded by 8 scary enemies, something i have seen happen before, and thus my huge damage output on those 8 enemies felt ridiculously high and warranted calling it a brilliant idea. with or without power attack in the mix.

The point is, it's not a Two-Handed weapon. The point that you've been arguing against the whole time.

No what i said is believed the great weapon master feat applied to versatility weapons, which it does.

And yet, you had to make a point of the nickname. The one you wouldn't even have bothered mentioning if you didn't care.

Also, this isn't "only PHB and SC". There's also a congregation of some of the most broken parts of UA thrown in there as well.

actually tbh i hate the name, its what my local hobby store owner calls me, but rather then let it bother me i own it, so you saying you don't think i deserve a name which i don't even like to begin with has given me 0 cares about this whole line of talking about it and i won't be talking further about it further simply because the oly thing i hate is how its waisting my time.

also i don't think UA is too op in any way, it's maybe 5% off where it should be which is pretty good

and i know its not included in phb+sc however i said i like being able to maximise within the official rules, and exploring options outside that can often lead to new thoughts on sticking within those rules

Ursus the Grim

2016-12-31, 09:46 AM

Might I suggest that we gave gotten to the part where the thread is off the rails? We are multiquoting each other's posts (always a bad sign) and it's a lopsided argument. We have one party arguing his build is super powerful but the homebrew is totally balanced, and the obvious consensus disagrees with him. Let's move on. :smallsmile:

Edit: Given how much attention he got for his build and all the feedback it received, does everyone agree that this build is optimized within its constraints? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21521060&postcount=183):smallbiggrin:

Gignere

2017-01-01, 06:47 AM

Deathtongue

2017-01-01, 09:46 AM

Why do you say that for 27-point buy, a 2 Pal/18 Sorcerer build would work better for DEX than with STR? It almost seems like it'd be the other way around; STR builds are slightly more durable (+1 AC and an extra hit point per level) and having just 2 levels in paladin puts you behind 8 hp and the +CHA bonus to saving throws, which further reduces your durability.

Now, granted, generically DEX has some advantages over STR -- in particular, having +4 to 6 to initiative and DEX saving throws and even skills is a huge deal. But is the tradeoff in durability really worth it for a 2/18?

Hakon

2017-01-01, 11:59 PM

Hakon

2017-01-02, 12:00 AM

The crazy thing is even with the home brewed Longstaff the build still doesn't work, because Shillelagh's wording is specific only club or quarterstaff, not any piece wood you are holding.

did you not notice the last line of the quarter staff which lets it work with shillelagh?

A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

Gastronomie

2017-01-02, 12:49 AM

Hakon

2017-01-02, 02:16 AM

I've been busy recently, hence not being able to edit or reply to comments. I'm still a bit busy, but at least I'm back. I will shortly get back to replying to questions. :3

I have decided to postpone rating Volo's races and the UA options, because I have not had the chance to use them. Until I use them, I cannot say for sure whether they are good or not. Sorry guise. But I want this guide to be truly trustworthy, and for that it requires testplaying.

@Hakon: Sorry, but I'd appreciate if you talk about Sorcerer/Paladin/Warlock in a different thread. What you're going for is quite different from what I'm going for, and besides, allowing homebrew defeats the purpose of creating a guide. Apart from that, as mentioned in my guide, I really hate the bad design of the Undying Light option. I've included it in the guide because it exists, but I don't want to devote a section to a subclass I don't even allow in my games.

no worries, however i was only saying that in post 9 you talk about asi's and their effects on weapons, yet fail to include quarterstaff as a viable option.
and you also mention multi classing, and list warlock 3 levels as blue
i simply added all that information to say, that if wielding a quarter staff and you take a 3 level dip in warlock, then it should be light blue if you take pact of the tome for access to shillelagh

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-02, 02:40 AM

no worries, however i was only saying that in post 9 you talk about asi's and their effects on weapons, yet fail to include quarterstaff as a viable option.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that's because this specific guide is about the use of swords, as implied by the thread's name.

MeeposFire

2017-01-02, 02:47 AM

no worries, however i was only saying that in post 9 you talk about asi's and their effects on weapons, yet fail to include quarterstaff as a viable option.
and you also mention multi classing, and list warlock 3 levels as blue
i simply added all that information to say, that if wielding a quarter staff and you take a 3 level dip in warlock, then it should be light blue if you take pact of the tome for access to shillelagh

Remember that doing that pushes back your progression on the other abilities that you really want or you spend a long time having poor attack scores since you are built to rely on cha only. Both tend to be annoying unless you start at a higher level.

Gastronomie

2017-01-02, 06:05 AM

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that's because this specific guide is about the use of swords, as implied by the thread's name.That plus, I found the level delay in Paladin and/or Sorcerer to be pretty taxing.

But it's true Shillelegh (or whatever Lovecraftian spelling that word was) is useful, so I should edit that in. Thanks~

EDIT: Did not see MeeposFire's post, pretty much said the same thing. Yeah, that's what I think too.

Sicarius Victis

2017-01-02, 06:31 AM

That plus, I found the level delay in Paladin and/or Sorcerer to be pretty taxing.

I in particular can't argue with wanting to get a faster progression, as I have never actually managed to get a character past level 10 in 5e.

But it's true Shillelegh (or whatever Lovecraftian spelling that word was) is useful, so I should edit that in. Thanks~

Shillelagh, but close enough. It's really simple to remember. You just have to think about the word in a way that's incredibly unnatural and shouldn't ever be thought of, and "shillelagh" will seem perfectly right. It's just one of those words Man Was Not Meant To Attempt To Spell.

I mean, thinking about things like that has gotten me this far...

Deathtongue

2017-01-02, 05:53 PM

I think you undercounted the utility of a couple of paladin spells.

Wrathful Smite should be at least sky blue. For one, it's it's really cheap to use. But the big deal with this spell is that ending the fear effect is a check, not a save. Meaning: not only does the enemy not get a proficiency bonus but they also roll disadvantage on it. It goes very nicely with:

Find Steed. You should pretty much always have this cast during the downtime; it's free! But the big deal is getting to Twin certain spells that normally can't be twinned. Like the aforementioned Wrathful Smite, Eyebite, Armor of Agathys, Hex, etc.

Protection from Good/Evil and Lesser Restoration, after a certain point in the game, should be one of those spells that gets always prepped. Quickened Lesser Restoration is not only good for preserving your regular action when you get poisoned, but giving one or two people a 'get out of jail free' card against blindness and paralysis is life-saving.

I think you're undercounting Elemental Weapon some. It's really greedy with spell slots, but gives a very big damage boost if you, say, use it with a certain Sorcerer Path. 2d4 + 6 extra damage on all of your attacks for a 5th-level spell slot ain't shabby.

Favored Soul Domains:
Grave is at least a black choice if no one else in the party has access to these spells.
Forge is at least as good as Trickery. It hands out a bunch of good to great spells -- Shield, Heat Metal, Magic Weapon, Protection From Energy, Wall of Fire, and Animate Objects. Heat Metal in particular is excellent for Sorcerers. You get a persistent source of bonus action damage that can knock weapons out of the person's hands and/or inflict constant disadvantage. You can upcast it for DoT that would make Spiritual Weapon jealous (3d8 + CHA versus 5d8? No contest.) or you can just Twin it for a good source of control. You won't be able to use it every combat, but when you can it's amazing.

As far as feats go: I'm wondering why you're sold on Blade Mastery but not Fell-Handed? I think swords are generically better to specialize in because there are a lot more sword-based magical items than other types -- but not only do you get a +1 bonus to attack, but one of the abilities is really, really strong. Getting to force prone if you have advantage and both attack rolls would have hit is crazy powerful, since there's no save or size limit associated with it.

Deathtongue

2017-01-02, 06:40 PM

Also, since sorcerer/paladins have a rather ugly tendency of running out of resources I think it might be helpful for the guide to have a sample resource budget for the various breakpoints of play. Obviously this isn't meant to be set in stone; if you get ambushed by an ancient red dragon or a bunch of intellect devourers then screw the budget! Still, it's nice to have a guideline for how much encounters should be draining you over the course of a workday.

The DMG recommends 6-8 encounters. That's fair. Let's assume that you have an 8-Encounter Workday and also assume that you have two short rests in between. So, for example, a daily budget for various builds might look something like this:

For a level 6 paladin / level 4 sorcerer:

2 - Freebies: You shouldn't be expending any of your daily resources on these. Maybe a level 1 or 2 spell slot if you didn't expend them or sorcery points you had budgeted in any other encounters.
3 - Standard Encounter: Budget between all of them a 1st-level spell and a 2nd level spell. Note that by 'budget a spell' we mean use it either to cast a spell, get more sorcery points, or just straight-up use it for smiting. You may need to use a channel divinity to make things go smoother or if you just have the PERFECT use.
2 - Taxing Encounter: Budget 2 sorcery points for each and a 2nd and 3rd level spell. You will probably need to use a channel divinity, too.
1 - Boss Encounter: You should budget 4 sorcery points (Meaning, two 1st level spells converted; yes, you will be outside your budget if previous encounters were taxing) and a 3rd and 4th level spell. They may get converted into smites, especially since you can't actually cast proper spells out of those slots. Use your channel divinity now.

For a level 2 paladin / level 13 sorcerer:

2 - Freebies: Budget a sorcery point and a 1st level spell for each between the two of them.
3 - Standard Encounter: Budget 3-4 sorcery points for each combat, along with two or three of a level 1, 2, and 3 spell.
2 - Taxing Encounter: Budget 10 sorcery points between the two combats. This means that you will have to spend about 2nd and third level spell in conjunction with spare sorcery points to meet this goal; if you feel more comfortable actually casting spells (hello, Hypnotic Pattern and Mirror Image) then do so. You get 3 4th-level and 1 5th-level spells to play with between these combats.
1 - Boss Encounter: Don't go into this with less than 8 sorcery points. Note that 1st and 3rd level spells are the most efficient to convert, so plan accordingly. Your 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slot should come into play now if they weren't already used.

The above chart is why I'm big into 1st and 2nd-level spells that are really strong and are good your whole career. Bless, Wrathful Smite, Mirror Image/Blur, Shield, and Web are your dads, you live in their basement, and you should ask them very nicely for your allowance. Playing a sorcerer/paladin gives you a LOT of options but as the OP very wisely noted running prematurely empty is the Achilles' heel of the class.

Deathtongue

2017-01-02, 07:58 PM

Edit: NM, my suggestion can't be done with point buy.

Mordrigar

2017-01-04, 03:18 PM

Why there is no mention of Sentinel? I always think GWM PAM + Sentinel is a good Combo for Paladins. You keep your enemies close. You can even smite them before they hit you (because of reach) and then they can't even move because you hit them.

Gignere

2017-01-04, 05:34 PM

DeWittInTheRoad

2017-01-04, 05:52 PM

Why there is no mention of Sentinel? I always think GWM + Sentinel is a good Combo for Paladins. You keep your enemies close. You can even smite them before they hit you (because of reach) and then they can't even move because you hit them.

Assuming you mean PAM + Sentinel, because this build requires at least 3 ASIs (and usually 4) + warcaster so unless you're a variant human you don't have the resources for it. (and even if are a variant human - a two feat investment is not worth the lose of ASIs)

Thorin!

2017-01-06, 10:38 AM

Deathtongue

2017-01-06, 12:27 PM

Just curious, I was thinking of running this setup. What would be the pros and cons of going Paladin 5\Fighter 2\sorcerer 13? I mean you would get 7th level spells, and an action surge to go full nova...twice in a single turn. there doesn't seem to be too much of a down side other than losing your aura of protection if you went paladin 6.Losing Aura of Protection is a huge deal, though. Even just having +3 to all of your saves is a big boost to your (let alone your friends') survivability. It's seriously the best single feature (aside from spells) in the game. If you gave me the choice between Aura of Protection and two of Smite/Channel Divinity/Paladin Spells/Fighting style I'd pick Aura of Protection.

As you can see from my proposed budget, Sorceradins are actually pretty tight on resources as-is. Action Surge seems like it'd help, but losing out on metamagic and spells/level already puts you back and you'd be pretty much only using Action Surge for extra attacks due to the limits on spells + bonus actions. You can certainly Nova harder than before (Hold Person plus TWO attack actions), but sorceradins already don't have a problem providing burst damage on demand, so long as they budget properly. I guess it'd also depend on whether you were going Sword and Board or Great Weapon. I don't see the minor boost in damage being worth it for S&B, but it could definitely be worth it for GWF.

I think two fighter levels might be better for a Favored Soul sorcerer that only took two paladin levels. If you completely threw caution to the wind, you could have a sequence with 20 STR and Great Weapon Fighting that went:

Bonus Action: Quickened Hold Person/Monster + Action: Two Greatsword Attacks + Action Surge: Two Greatsword Attacks

For a total of 16d6/56 (sword) + 40d8/180 (smite) + 40 (GWF) + 20 (strength), average 296(!!!) damage. Granted, it'd be at the cost of completely blowing a resource. But when something's gotta die, they gotta die.

Zene

2017-01-06, 03:12 PM

Klorox

2017-01-10, 12:27 AM

How about adding in the Mobile feat? It does wonders with booming blade!

nmitchell2

2017-01-10, 10:37 AM

How about adding in the Mobile feat? It does wonders with booming blade!

While this is a great strategy, the Sorcadin has other things it wants to do more. If you want to do this, I would go Arcane Trickster or Swash/Lock because you get Sneak Attack for extra damage and Cunning Action/Fancy Footwork to get away without the feat tax.

detectivecain

2017-01-12, 07:30 PM

why not dump str? the pre-request for multyclassing into paladin is 13 Str OR 13 Cha right?:smallconfused:

MeeposFire

2017-01-12, 07:33 PM

why not dump str? the pre-request for multyclassing into paladin is 13 Str OR 13 Cha right?:smallconfused:

It is actually 13 in both str and cha to multiclass into or out of paladin.

Rapatto

2017-01-12, 09:07 PM

Ursus the Grim

2017-01-13, 09:23 AM

Really, really, really great (and fun to read) guide! Even though I'm still kinda new, this is the best thing on anything 5e I've read, period.

Still can't decide if this is the build for me, however.

While I enjoy spells and having lots of utility options normally, if I was in it for the insane nova this time around, essentially having one ridiculous burst of damage a day, is this build a good idea? If so, what can I do to maximize the nova?

Edit: Situation Hey all, I want to make a super nova focused paladin.

Soon I'll be in a campaign with a bunch of new players. I wanted a diverse class to cover anything they struggle with. I also didn't want to make a super optimized offensive build that would outshine them. I decided on probably paladin for good coverage of roles. Still, my inner munchkin wants something.

I want to play a character who goes overkill. He can't help himself, even if it gimps him for a good portion of the day (let the others shine). Give me my nova to shine, otherwise I'll play with support and mediocrity. This guy seems bad ass while also funny to play.

So I'll focus on crazy smiting for nova. Everything else is open, as long as it helps the concept. Multiclass and UA allowed.

I was considering Paladin/Sorc, Paladin/Warlock, or maybe even some 2 level dip into fighter. Straight paladin doesn't seem too bad either.

Again, thanks for the guide and thanks for any help!

I would say so.

There are a few basic options for Nova damage in 5e. Assassinate (Assassin Rogue), Action Surge (Fighter), Smite (Paladin), Metamagic (Sorcerer), and Overchannel (Evoker Wizard).

Assassinate is highly situational, and if played RAW, probably won't go off reliably.
Action Surge isn't bad, but on its own it doesn't do much, and you can only really do it once.
Smite is reliably powerful, and its great to keep in your pocket for a critical, but Paladins don't really have the slots to do it reliably.
Metamagic is solid, but Quicken is weakened by the fact that your second spell needs to be a cantrip.
Overchannel is cool once you get up to 14th level, but again, its a very restricted resource.

The Sorcadin gets two of those Nova features.

The weakness of the Smite (limited usages) is mitigated by the Sorcerer spell slots. A level 11 Paladin can drop three smites at 4d8.

A level 6 Paladin/5 Sorcerer can drop those same three smites and can also drop two smites at 5d8.

If they're really hungry for max damage smites, they can gobble up their sorcery points and low-level slots. If they want to stock up on high-octane Smite fuel, a Pal6/Sorc5 can send a total of 24 points through the machine, which gives them a total of six max damage Smites to throw around - and very little else.

They also take Metamagic and mitigate its weaknesses. Sure, a Sorcerer 11 can Quicken Hold Person, but their nova on that turn is then limited to cantrips. The Pal 6/Sorc 5 can use that Hold Person and then stroll up with two critical smites, which out-damage cantrips by just a little bit.

A level 11 Draconic Sorcerer can cast Disintegrate and Quicken a Ray of Frost. If everything goes off, he's dealing a total of 10d6+40+3d8+5 damage. That's 93.5 damage at the cost of his sole 6th level slot and 2 sorcery points.

My in-play character, at Warlock2/Sorcerer9 casts Quickened Scorching Ray out of his 5th level slot and follows with Eldritch Blast. Assuming the target is Hexed (so, round 2) and everything hits, he deals 12d6+6d6+3d10+3d6+15 damage. That's an average of 104.5 damage at the cost of my sole 5th level slot, 2 sorcery points, and the assumption that Hex is on.

The example Level 11 Sorcadin drops a Quickened Hold Person and smites twice. He deals an average of 114 damage - assuming a modest Str of 16 and a Longsword. It costs him a 2nd level spell, 2 sorcery points, and his two 4th level spell slots.

I mean, this is all just reiterated theory as first outlined in the pros section. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21273125&postcount=2)

Is it theoretically possible to out-nova a well-built Sorcadin? Possibly. But not very likely, especially not without some bending of the rules or DM hand-waving.

Rapatto

2017-01-13, 09:45 AM

I would say so.

Thanks for the help! Probably gonna do it then.

Now I just need to decide on my weapon.

Thoughts on 6/X vs 2/x in relation to nova?

Deathtongue

2017-01-14, 12:27 PM

Thanks for the help! Probably gonna do it then.

Now I just need to decide on my weapon.

Thoughts on 6/X vs 2/x in relation to nova?A 6/X, unless they are a Favored Soul, is just plain better at a singular nova in terms of raw damage. Extra attack is a huge deal for novas, not only because of the spells-per-round limit but also for smites. I suspect that the best one-shot Nova specialist would be a 2d6-weapon wielding Paladin 2 / Fighter 2 / Favored Soul 6+, though, as seen upthread.

That said, unless your DM prefers 2-3 encounter workdays, you generally don't need to lay down that kind of ass-kicking on demand. Quickened Hold Person + 2 Attacks + Smite is generally more than enough; less than <3% of monsters of a reasonable CR, including boss monsters, won't be reduced to less than half hit points from that. Remember, you have other party members, too. If you really want to bring the pain, it's usually better to Hold Person/Monster or even Twin a Haste/Improved Invisibility on the other frontliners and coordinate an alpha strike.

Deathtongue

2017-01-14, 12:53 PM

Ursus the Grim

2017-01-14, 04:26 PM

Also: what has been peoples' experiences getting magical items in home games or in AL?

I know most of these guides build around the idea that you won't be getting any at all. Which is fair, because there's no guarantee unless you're playing a module, but it's been my experience that DMs, no matter how stingy the game, end up handing out at LEAST a few +1 armor/shields/weapons by level 10 or so.

In particular, the assumption that you're going to be getting a magic shield completely upends some assumptions. While the GWM build is only slightly worse than a Sword and Board build, the marginal utility of a +2 Greatsword in no way compares to getting that of a +2 shield or even a +1 shield. A +2 armor and +1 shield, not unheard of for a level 12+ character, makes the base AC of a Sorceradin a whopping 23-24. And it's also straight-up easier to get a +1 armor, shield, and weapon that it is to get a +3 weapon.

Magic item attainment in AL depends pretty wildly on how many people are at the table and how closely etiquette is followed.

If you consistently have 3 people at a table and roll on everything you can and/or play with pushovers, you're going to get more than the guy who is at a 7 people table and only rolls on things he feels is best suited for his character.

In my experience, a character can generally get one magic item per tier reliably. I have three T2 characters, one with an uncommon, one with a rare, and one with a very rare - the very rare dropped in an Epic.

Note that a +1 Armor has a higher rarity than a +1 weapon and should be considered accordingly.

Yes, if you get 3 magic items on your character, S&B might be better for you than if you get 3 magic items on your Greatsword.

There is another factor to consider, though.

A S&B build wants to pump Charisma most.
A GWM build wants to pump Strength most.

There are Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belts of Giant Strength. There is no Cloak of Charisma. This allows a character to bypass the 'ASI tax' that the GWM builds face, and also frees up their point buy a little more.

There are also ways to boost Con, which helps mitigate some of the pain of having a lower AC than your S&B build.

rooneg

2017-01-14, 08:22 PM

Ursus the Grim

2017-01-14, 09:21 PM

If anyone's interested, I've got some thoughts on Volo's races. Its my favorite 5e book so far, and I've had a chance to play most of them (though not as sorcadins). Hopefully it will help until Gastronomie has a chance to offer a more insightful appraisal.

Aasimar: +2 Cha is nice. *Darkvision and the light cantrip are the first example of Volo’s built-in redundancy. *Fallen is probably your best choice for the +Str, though Scourge isn’t bad either. *Wisdom isn’t very important, so I’d consider Protector your ‘weakest’ option here.

Kenku: Not great. *The racial score increases aren’t all that helpful. *The traits don’t really lend themselves to your build either. *Stealth and Deception aren’t main focuses of a Sorcadin. Slightly better if you have the DM Dexterity pass, but there isn’t much else going for it.

Lizardfolk: So, you want to rely on four ability scores? *Here’s your chance. *Your Natural Armor is inferior unless you’re pumping Dex. Your Hungry Jaws won’t be used because your Bonus Action will generally be consumed (heh) by GWM or Quicken Spell. *Again, slightly better if you’re getting the DM Dexterity Pass. *Also could make for an interesting naked Sorcadin if you roll stats. *

Tabaxi: Again, another decent option . . . if you’ve got the Dexterity pass. *+Cha is nice, and you can’t complain about Climb speeds and Darkvision. *Feline Agility lets you get into melee nice and fast - which is where you want to be. *Even for a Strength build, the +Dex isn’t too bad. *Bringing an 8 Dex to a 10 Dex isn’t really a waste.

Triton: Great scores for you. *Your three most important abilities all bump up one (see also: Half-Elf). *Resistance to Cold, some free spells, and a Swim Speed all round out a pretty solid option.

Bugbear: Ah, the sneaky bruiser. *Actually not a terrible choice. *+1 Dex can still be useful for a Strength build. *If you can sneak up on the opponent (perhaps facilitated by a Sorcerer spell), adding 7 damage to your first hit is good. *If you can guarantee a crit (perhaps with a Quickened Hold Person before you strike) this adds a few more d6. *Depending on DM interpretation, Long-Limbed may have some wacky interactions with GFB.

Goblin: Not good for most sorcadins. *You can get Darkvision from better options, Fury of the Small doesn’t contribute enough to warrant taking this, and your Nimble Escape is for doing things that most Sorcadins won’t be interested in doing.

Hobgoblin: Like the Lizardfolk, I hate that it feels weak for you. *The proficiencies are redundant, you don’t need +Int, and Saving Face lets you be better at something you’re probably already good at. *Up to +5 to that Concentration save is pretty decent, but you’d be better off taking VHuman for Resilient or Warcaster if you’re that concerned.

Kobold: Oh boy. *If you’re playing RAW, this is a tough one. *-2 Str means you need to put a 15 into what’s probably going to be your dump stat in order to build Sorcadin. *Pack Tactics is very, very powerful and is going to negate your Sunlight Sensitivity most of the time. *Remember how the advantage rules work. *Even if you’re in bright sunlight, throwing a javelin from long range, while prone, against a prone enemy, if you have one ally adjacent to the target, you roll it with neither disadvantage nor advantage. *If you’re not in bright sunlight, you practically have advantage on every attack. *If you get DM Dexterity Pass, this is much, much better.

Orc: Its a worse Half-Orc. *Half-Orc’s Relentless Endurance is really helpful for a relatively squishy Sorcadin, and the Orc doesn’t get it. *At least you didn’t need that Intelligence. *If you’re that interested in Aggressive, Tabaxi’s Feline Agility fills the same function with less hassle.

Yuan-Ti Pureblood: *low whistle* here it is, kids. *We’d probably prefer that +Int were +Str or +Con, but there’s enough here to make it work. *Free, useful spells that run off your Charisma. *Advantage on all saves against spells or magical effects also mitigates some of the risk of Wild Magic Sorcadins - four of the negative results are self-centered spells that you’ll probably save against.. *Complete Immunity to Poison and the Poisoned Condition completely negates one of the most common weaknesses Sorcadins have. Three languages, just because.

Zene

2017-01-16, 03:24 PM

Could use some advice on deciding whether to go greatsword/longsword path.

Currently my sorcadin is Pal 2/Wild Sorc 3. I'm planning on doing the 3/17 build since high-powered sorcery and more spell slots is more appealing to me than Extra Attack and Aura of Protection. I went sorcadin instead of straight sorcerer, though, because I wanted to have some front-line ability and nice burstiness for boss fights.

I had planned on doing the sword-and-board route for versatility and to keep things simple, as this is my first sorcadin... next level (at sorc 4) I was going to pick up Warcaster, then max out Cha.

But, I just got an opportunity to trade my Staff of Swarming Insects (which is nice, but was getting little use) for a Flametongue Greatsword. And it's making me seriously consider taking the greatsword path instead. Quickened booming/greenflame, followed by another one as my attack, with max smite and an extra 2d6 on each from the flametongue, plus possibly -5/+10 from GWM, is looking pretty appealing. In which case I'd pick up GWM next level instead of Warcaster. And then focus on boosting strength either via ASIs or (preferably) by picking up gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of giant strength.

Is this a good path to take? Is a flametongue weapon enough of a boost to switch paths, or am I going to regret this decision?

Note: Since I was originally planning to pick up Warcaster instead of Resilient Con, I have an even Con score (16). Also I took Defense fighting style at Pal 2.
Note 2: This is for AL play, if that matters.

rooneg

2017-01-16, 03:48 PM

Is this a good path to take? Is a flametongue weapon enough of a boost to switch paths, or am I going to regret this decision?

I think a flametongue weapon is awesome. It increases your damage output by ~7 damage per hit, although the damage type is fire so it's the most common resistance in the game. Note that it doesn't give you any to-hit bonus, which makes it marginally less good with GWM than a +2 Greatsword (the equivalent rarity, which you could probably get from Fai Chen if you brought your staff to a con and traded it).

In the end, you have to weight the added AC you'd get from a shield vs the potential additional damage you'd get from the Greatsword. I don't think there's a wrong answer, it really just depends what sort of build you want.

Gignere

2017-01-16, 05:05 PM

Could use some advice on deciding whether to go greatsword/longsword path.

Note: Since I was originally planning to pick up Warcaster instead of Resilient Con, I have an even Con score (16). Also I took Defense fighting style at Pal 2.
Note 2: This is for AL play, if that matters.

I think if you got to keep your staff it might be worth it to go GWM. You get advantage on all of your attacks even against creatures with true sight. Without it you don't have much to offset the -5 to really max out GWM and you don't have extra attack to really maximize he extra damage from flametongue. You are kind of like a rogue you want to hit and smite, not miss since you have only one opportunity to hit hard.

Zene

2017-01-16, 05:27 PM

Note that it doesn't give you any to-hit bonus, which makes it marginally less good with GWM than a +2 Greatsword (the equivalent rarity, which you could probably get from Fai Chen if you brought your staff to a con and traded it).

Hmm.. the +2 is that valuable? I suppose I could always trade the Flametongue to Fai Chen for the +2. I do plan on having Bless up, using Tides of Chaos for advantage when possible, and probably taking Devotion at Pal3 for the +hit bonus.

I think if you got to keep your staff it might be worth it to go GWM. You get advantage on all of your attacks even against creatures with true sight.

Yeah, I was super psyched to get the staff in part for that reason... but I'm finding it's rare that I actually get to use that feature. Either it's a battle I don't have time to prep for (and so I don't want to lose an action to activate it); or the battlefield is too cramped, and I can't activate the swarm without really messing up my allies since I can't back up far enough to clear both them and their target. That said, it's only been a few sessions, so maybe I should stick with it a bit longer to see if that changes.

you don't have extra attack to really maximize he extra damage from flametongue. You are kind of like a rogue you want to hit and smite, not miss since you have only one opportunity to hit hard.

Well I can quicken GFB/BB for another weapon attack, and if there are two adjacent enemies I can twin BB, so it's really 2-3 attacks when I'm bursting. But yeah not quite as good as Extra Attack.

rooneg

2017-01-16, 05:41 PM

Hmm.. the +2 is that valuable? I suppose I could always trade the Flametongue to Fai Chen for the +2. I do plan on having Bless up, using Tides of Chaos for advantage when possible, and probably taking Devotion at Pal3 for the +hit bonus.

Look at it this way. If you're attacking an AC 15 target with a +7 attack bonus and a +4 damage bonus you'll hit 65% of the time. So your average DPR is 0.65 * the weapon's average damage (8.5*0.65=5.5 for a longsword, 11*0.65=7 for a greatsword, 18*0.65=11 for a flametongue greatsword). If you bump your attack and damage up by 2 your chance of hitting goes to 75% and your average damage goes to 7.8 for the longsword and 9.75 for the greatsword. So it's just below the flametongue greatsword for straight average damage, but you're hitting 10% more, which means 10% more chances to spend a smite (can't do that if you miss). I'm not going to do the math for the -5/+10, but it's similar.

Zene

2017-01-16, 05:47 PM

Look at it this way. If you're attacking an AC 15 target with a +7 attack bonus and a +4 damage bonus you'll hit 65% of the time. So your average DPR is 0.65 * the weapon's average damage (8.5*0.65=5.5 for a longsword, 11*0.65=7 for a greatsword, 18*0.65=11 for a flametongue greatsword). If you bump your attack and damage up by 2 your chance of hitting goes to 75% and your average damage goes to 7.8 for the longsword and 9.75 for the greatsword. So it's just below the flametongue greatsword for straight average damage, but you're hitting 10% more, which means 10% more chances to spend a smite (can't do that if you miss). I'm not going to do the math for the -5/+10, but it's similar.

Ah great point, I was forgetting to consider the missed smite damage. Thank you!

Sception

2017-01-20, 01:15 AM

Assuming you mean PAM + Sentinel, because this build requires at least 3 ASIs (and usually 4) + warcaster so unless you're a variant human you don't have the resources for it. (and even if are a variant human - a two feat investment is not worth the lose of ASIs)

This is fair, polearm master plus sentinel is probably a combo with too much overhead for a sorcadin build.

However, Sentinel on it's own may still warrant a place. Yeah, Warcaster for Booming Blade OA's might get a monster to hold still to avoid extra damage, but there are some cases where you'd rather just deny them the option outright. For instance, an oathbreaker looking to prevent an enemy from escaping his fear effect, or a shadow sorcerer locking an opponent down in her darkness bubble.

Combine with Tunnel Fighter to lock down multiple enemies at once for some decent crowd control. Maybe even use a polearm for reach, though some of the effects of sentinel only work at 5', so maybe not. Even if you do use a Polearm, you may end up just skipping polearm mastery, whenever you can lock down more than one opponent you'd be using your bonus action on tunnel fighting anyway.

Here's a sample build sketch through level 5, though I'm sure someone with more optimizing prowess can do better:

Black Hole Knight
A darkness so deep that nothing can escape.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131960/4881646-7982914318-1IDkp.gif

assumptions:

* DM lets you play Oathbreaker Paladin from the DMG as an alternate paladin oath, possibly coming up with an actual code of conduct to go with it (maybe cribbing from the paladin UA oath of tyranny). This is a stretch because the subclass is presented to use for npc villains in particular, and the default fluff is very much about falling from grace, not starting out on a road to darkness. Amusingly enough, you could start out as a paladin of Tyranny, and then 'fall' into oathbreaker by showing too much compassion.

* DM lets you use the Shadow Sorcerer origin and Tunnel Fighter fighting style from the 'Light, Dark, Underdark' UA. This is iffy since UA in general doesn't have the best reputation, and these two elements in particular are among the UA content often pointed to as overpowered.

* DM lets you take cantrips from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. This is usually fine.

* Your party is cool hanging out with a badass dark knight more interested in debuffing & locking down your enemies rather than buffing up your friends. Since you'll be starting life as a paladin, your party might have a lot of expectations that might cause them to become frustrated with you even if you're contributing just fine. Same sort of situation as a 3.5 era cleric who was expected to spend their spell slots healing and could get in trouble with the party if they were using those slots for other things - even if those other things were a better use of resources.

It will help if you can get someone else in the party to also play a paladin, so that they can hand out aura of protection and bless. That way, the rest of your friends won't be mad at you for being stingy with your spell slots and punishing to anyone, friend or foe, who gets too close to you. The paladin UA tyranny and treachery paladins would get along well with you, and mechanically you like having the Tyrant's fear-penalty aura around. Devotion and Ancients paladins would probably look a bit askance at you, though. Personality-wise, a vengeance paladin will either be your best friend (she agrees with using any means necessary to defeat evil, even turning its own power against it) or your worst enemy (any sign of corruption must be punished... with a vengeance), no inbetween at all, so exercise caution.

Human Variant
Post racial stats: Str 16, Dex 8, Con15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16
human bonus feat: sentinel
skills: standard paladin/sorcerer stuff up, but shame on you if you're not proficient in intimidate
weapon preference: halberd (reach, can cast non-material somatic spells without warcaster feat)

Level one: paladin. At this level you've got ok HP and decent defenses - not as good as if you used a shield, but still workable. Plus 5 points of bonus healing a day. With sentinel and reach you're about as sticky as you could expect to be at this level, though limited reactions for opportunity attacks are an issue.

Level two: paladin (tunnel fighter). Limited reactions are no longer an issue. Wade into enemies, knock one on the head, put up tunnel fighter. Enemies within your reach will have to burn their action on withdrawal to leave, while those actually adjacent to you won't even be able to do that. And if you really want to punish someone for trying, you've got a couple smites per day to do it.

Level three: Paladin (oathbreaker). 1/short rest friendly burst fear, and opponents who fail the first save don't even get another unless they can get 30+ feat away from you, which you're not letting them do any time soon, are you? Suddenly you're a board control monster. Oh, and if you happen to run into an undead monster with poor saves, you can dominate it instead.

- now, you could keep right on with oathbreaker paladin all the way to level 20, picking up extra attack, aura of protection, aura of hate, improved divine smite, picking up resilient con and maxing out your strength and cha (or just one or the other and grabbing polearm master for when you want to spend your bonus action hating on one dude than locking down several). But if we're focusing specifically on the stickiness/attack of opportunity stuff, I think shifting over to shadow sorcerer here is a good call, at least for a while, not the least of which because paladin auras tend to make your friends want to bunch up next to you, and we want to make 'next to you' exactly the worst place anyone could be.

So instead:
Level Four: Sorcerer (shadow). gets you up to four first level spell slots per day, which you can spend on smite like you have been, or you can spend on shield for when one of the targets you've locked down actually lands a hit on you. Sadly, this costs a reaction, but you don't care, because you make opportunity attacks without spending reactions. Expeditious retreat can also be useful for positioning the control zone that is your very presence. You also pick up darkvision and several cantrips, including:

* green flame blade - which will help with your lagging on-turn damage, since you aren't getting your second attack, at least not any time soon.

* booming blade - which helps with your stickiness by tagging a target in reach for extra damage if they move. Use this against an enemy 10 feet away from you - they'll take that extra damage whether they withdraw away from you or advance to hit you back.

* Lightning Lure - tag an opponent 15 feet away and pull them adjacent to get stuck.

Level Five: Here we go! Here's what we're talking about! twice per day, cast Darkness on yourself, but you can see through it. Enemies that can't see through it (and that's the vast majority of enemies) will have disadvantage on attack rolls against you, while you have advantage on rolls against them. combine with sentinel and reach to keep enemies trapped in the darkness. Note that enemies in the dark are not automatically hidden, your party still knows where they are to attack them, and the disadvantage for attacking blind will be countered out by advantage for attacking a blind target. That said, parties still don't appreciate being blinded, so you'll mostly charge forward into (or, with expeditious retreat, around and behind) a cluster of enemies before activating this ability. Your party can deal with any that escape your bubble, or just hurl fiery death into the bubble - you can take it, the enemies won't.

Notably, most teleportation requires line of sight, allowing you to effectively shut down one of the few options for breaking out of sentinel. And remember, if confines are tight in a particular fight and you can't use darkness without catching the party, you still have that party-friendly fear pulse from the Oathbreaker to fall back on.

After that? Just mix sorcerer and paladin levels to your heart's content. More Sorcerer means more casting, more shield, more sorcery points for more darkness bubbles, maybe some area affects with the shape metamagic to make them party friendly for when the fighting space is too cramped for darkness, maybe some quicken to up your damage when there aren't enough enemies around to be worth burning a bonus action on tunnel fighting. More Paladin means getting that second attack, getting that aura of protection for your own benefit if not for the party's, some interesting spell options sorcerers don't get (summon steed, animate dead, etc), aura of hate for more damage to both your on-turn and opportunity attacks.

Most any mix of the two is fine at this point, but at character level 20, your max levels of paladin should be one of the following: 3 (oathbreaker), 4 (asi), 5 (extra attack), 6 (aura of protection), 7 (aura of hate), 8 (asi), 9 (lv3 paladin spells), 11 (improved divine smite), or 12 (asi). Pick up resilient con to round of your con score and keep your concentration spells up, then max strength then charisma if favoring paladin, or charisma then strength if favoring sorcerer. If favoring paladin, and planning on taking it to exactly level 12, then you might consider polearm master for extra damage when you're up against just one opponent. Or you might not (see below).

Options and Alternatives:

weapons: While reach is useful for extending your control range, the strongest affects of sentinel are restricted to 5' anyway, so you could reasonably go with a greatsword instead of a glaive or halberd for a bit more damage. Or sword & board for a bit more defense, particularly with the grey hole variant below that takes warcaster instead of sentinel.

Races: Wanting to take two feats means you're generally better off sticking to variant human, but Aasimar, triton, half elf, pureblood, or really any other race that might otherwise appeal to paladins are fair game. Fallen Aasimar in particular grants a decent daily fear effect plus damage boost.

Paladin Oaths: the oathbreaker CD is fantastic for this build, but not necessary. You could conceivably stop at paladin two, or continue to paladin three with another oath. Oath of the Crown grants another way of chaining enemies to you. Oath of Treachery gets advantage against enemies that are adjacent to each other, which they will often be due to their inability to escape from you. Oath of Tyranny has a nice debuff on saves vs. fear, which goes well with the Fallen Aasimar racial, as well as fear spells you just cast with normal slots.

Sorcerous Origins: Shadow is the overwhelming favorite here, it's basically the defining thematic and mechanical core of the entire build. A Tunnel Master / Sentinel build could work with other sorcerous origins, but... meh.

Feats: As mentioned, Pole Arm Master synergizes in various ways with sentinel and tunnel fighter and oathbreaker, but those synergies don't play nice with each other or with the build concept. What I mean is, oathbreaker's damage boosts work well with PAM's bonus action attack, but that costs you the use of Tunnel Fighter for the round. And tunnel fighter, sentinel, and PAM can combine together to stop any enemies from approaching within 5 feet of you, but that's the complete opposite of what you're supposed to be doing. You're a cage, not a wall. On the other hand, Great Weapon Mastery can work well for you, since you'll often have advantage from darkness to get over the hit penalty. It's potentially a considerable damage boost, but loss of accuracy means more chance of enemies slipping out of your clutches. Warcaster (for booming blade opp attacks) presents a soft control alternative to warcaster (see Grey Hole below)

Spells: I haven't looked too closely at spell selection, but the standard sorcadin spells, leaning towards zone control and area damage (with shape metamagic) would probably be the way to go. Spells that specifically work with quicken are less your thing since your bonus action mostly goes to Tunnel Fighter.

Variant: the Grey Hole

Sentinel is hard control - it shuts down options outright. This isn't exactly fun for the DM to try to work around, and her options for doing so aren't fun for you, either. Forcing lose/lose choices, while not as effective, is more engaging for everyone. If the DM feels like regular monsters don't even have the possibility of fighting effectively against you, she'll feel forced to include monsters that bypass your gimmicks outright. Enemies with opportunity-attack bypassing movement abilities. Enemies with blindsight or truesight or devilsight or tremorsense. Theoretically, these sorts of things are a minority of monsters, and the build should work fine in most situations, but if the DM starts tailoring encounters to get past your hard control, you can find yourself... well, you won't be ineffective, but you'll be a lot less to do than a sorcadin who spent their asi's, combat style, and other build choices on more straightforward abilities rather than one particular gimmick, however impressive that gimmick may be when it's working.

So you might do the same build with warcaster instead of sentinel, so your tunnel fighting opp attacks threaten extra booming blade damage on movement instead of just cancelling it outright. The DM won't feel as much pressure to tailor specifically against you, since regular monsters can still function, you'll just punish them for doing so. Obviously you can't take warcaster at level one, but you could start with resilient con, and pick up warcaster at your first USI, whenever that happens to come.