Guidelines for Suggestion and Charm spells

[bookkeeping guy]

So I would like to get more input on what's legit for what you can include for getting npcs and others to do with charm spells and suggestion spells. It seems with the upgraded dominate and charm monster its more clear that there is less limits...

But with charm monster and suggestion how far can you go? I really feel like having more input would clarify this and help feel out what's OK. But the description isn't very detailed.


I mean could you totally turn a drow into deciding to be good? Example 1

Example 2; cast on two opposing race diplomats to help them sign a treaty when they are at war with each other

Example 3; find the hottest babe in town and persuade her to be your girlfriend. (depending on if you inherited your grandpa's face this may take repeat castings XD

Example 4; Maybe you got example 3 to work but you did the same to another girl in another town too and you are living the warren jeffs fantasy. But wouldn't you need an extra stack of suggestion on both to not fight each other or kick you out for cheating on them now?

Would that person be your ally? How far would they go to follow you? would they give you the shirt of their backs and all their cash to or how would the boundaries work out?

Is seduction necessary? And I assume you should be able to get farther with it if you have a seduction skill and/or high appearance/charisma etc...

Also in the drow example above...(assuming you overcame MR) would you need 2 suggestions? 1 for that person to overcome evil and the 2nd suggestion to be your eternal servant or follower?

I'm curious to if with suggestion there might be a tiered progression to how far you could go too...like every 4 levels or so you could do 1 more built in mind trick...for example level 12 wiz casts this on drow girl...because he's level 12 he gets 3 bullet points of mind altering as long as he renews the spell...1st bullet goes to suggesting she become his eternal follower, 2nd that intimacy with the boss is OK at their workplace....maybe 3rd is to be good and not kill people anymore though self defense is OK. if he had maybe four more levels maybe he could suggest that they are close enough now that its not a big deal if she gives him money.

With charm are you casting it to only not have them kill you or how far would they go?

I really think this is a fun issue to work out. Hope quite a few people can point stuff out.

[Deadline]

The PHB covers this decently enough. Charm Person isn't mind control, it just makes the subject friendly to you. Looking at the PHB pg. 72 for an idea of what that means, it means that a friendly target wishes you well, and will chat, advise, offer limited help or advocate for you. It's not a magical roofie.

[Segev]

Charm spells are actually the more clear-cut ones. You can't compel self-harm, and you can't compel them to do something that they would "never ever" do. That's the only fuzzy part; what would somebody "never" do? It's pretty clear it's meant to prevent "Charm the fighter into murdering his beloved, the party cleric," sorts of deals. You won't likely talk somebody into betraying deeply-held beliefs.

But getting them to do you favors, even things they wouldn't normally do, even things they'd not WANT to do? That's what the opposed Charisma check enables. As long as it's not something that hits them about as hard as "kill yourself," you can probably get them to do it with an opposed Charisma check. (So, if they'd rather die than let their beloved die, you're not going to get them to in any way cooperate with killing their beloved. If they'd rather die than betray their master, you won't get them to betray their master. But if they "merely" would be strongly opposed to it, they can be talked into it.)

So the hot babe you've charmed into being your girlfriend probably was not too opposed to it anyway while charmed. After all, she views you as a good friend. So unless she's physically repulsed by the idea of being romantically involved with you, she probably isn't TOO hard to convince to be "girlfriend" instead of just "friend." She's also (at least) Friendly for any and all Diplomacy checks you might make, so not only can you resort to a straight-up opposed Cha check, you can make Diplomacy rolls to change her attitude on things or get favors from her as if she were Friendly.

It'll be a little harder to convince the two hot babes from the two towns to accept your polygamous ways, but again, they're Friendly, so you can try to change their attitude towards it, and you can also use opposed Charisma to make them accept it anyway. Convince her she wants what she can get of you, even if she has to share you.

Suggestion is less well-defined. "Reasonable" is awfully stretched by the examples alone. It seems that what suggestion does is compel them to take whatever you say at face value, and then act on it in a way that is "reasonable" based on the assertions they're compelled to believe. "That pool over there is cool, clean water, and a dip would be refreshing," can get somebody to go swim in some acid, at least until he takes damage and realizes the suggestion is making him harm himself.

By a similar token, you could suggest to the hottest girl in town, "I am the most charming and attractive man you've ever heard of; you would be honored to be my girlfriend," and she'd find that totally reasonable. "Unreasonable" probably treads the same ground as the "self-harm" clauses, or in some ways the "totally against their nature" ones. You won't be able to suggest that a greedy man should give you all his money out of the goodness of his heart. But you might be able to suggest that the rock you're holding is actually a geode containing liquefied philosopher's stone, and that it's worth all the money he can give you.

Suggestion seems to be one that's even more dependent on your cleverness and the DM's willingness to play along than charm, but it can go a lot further because it can override the beliefs of the target in order to make something more reasonable.


It's important to note that both have a duration of 1 day/CL, at most. So you'll need to repeatedly charm those girls, or make those suggestions to them, if you want the relationships to continue. Charm is the better one to build a longer-term relationship off of. With it, you could use them being Friendly to Diploamcy them into liking things about you until they probably will be Friendly even without being charmed.

A particularly good combination, usable at 1st level if you take the spells, is charm person plus hypnotism. Charm person makes the target Friendly. Hypnotism pushes them two steps higher (Fanatic!), but they're enthralled and not doing anything, so that's of apparently limited utility. However, while hypnotized, you can make one request of them that will stick around at the heightened level of devotion even after the spell ends.

So hypnotize the girl into wanting to be in love with you, and she'll be Fanatical towards that...even after all the spells have worn off. Just be careful; you want devoted, besotted lovers, not yandere fanatics chasing you down.

On the up side, this same trick can be used to get the members of your harem to be fine with you having one. "You have no problem with me having a harem. In fact, you think it's only logical that I would, since I'm so amazing and lovable."

A dedicated Enchanter (or Enchantment-focused Sorcerer) can be devastatingly effective at wrapping humanoids around his little finger even at first level.

[Mehangel]

Spheres of Power has a decent (while not perfect) table (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mind) which includes various examples of what is and isn't appropriate for charms, suggestions, and the like.

[bookkeeping guy]

So I just realized there's another facet to this as well.

How would you work out casting charm or suggestion and calculating it on a creature with magic resistance or some (but not complete) charm resistance?

I'm also assuming that if a creature has charm resistance with a percentage that applies to all charm type spells of all levels and not just the level 1 charm person?

Thanks for confirmation on this.

I'd like to hear it from someone else to make sure I'm not being too liberal with rules and such.

[Jowgen]

The Rules Compendium's section on charms is surprisingly comprehensive.

Charms are distinguished by the fact that they leave the charmed creature's free will in tact. The creature still makes its own decisions, but simply does so based on a skewed view of reality. A good analogy, in my mind, is that Charms influence decisions the same way Illusions do, just mental rather than real.

Only other thing I can add is that, for turning the Drow in your example good, I have a handbook on that in my sig.

[Conradine]

Question:

if a charmed person is persuaded to do something not unreasonable, will the person understand he has been charmed?


Example:

if you Charm a customer into buying an item at a reasonable price, will he suspect something?

[Segev]

Question:

if a charmed person is persuaded to do something not unreasonable, will the person understand he has been charmed?


Example:

if you Charm a customer into buying an item at a reasonable price, will he suspect something?

With nothing else happening? Probably not. If he runs into you again and is no longer Charmed, he might wonder why he thought you so much more likable before, but the only evidence he has is that. If it's an item he might not have wanted and felt that he only bought it 'cause he liked you, he might come to that conclusion...but I'm sure people who know of Charm effects blame all-natural salesmanship on that kind of thing, too.

"I would never have kissed her and betrayed my wife's trust. CLEARLY she bewitched me!" is something that I'm sure many a cheating husband has said in societies that believe in witchcraft.

[Conradine]

Could Hypnotism be used to heal or at least soothe mental diseases?
Like givin to an aracnophobic a mental suggestion that normal, tiny spider can't harm him. Or suggest a paranoid that he isn't followed by enemies day and night.


And, how about giving artificial motivation to a student ( " You really like math" ) ?

Or ease an unpleasant emotion ( " You don't really feel so much envious of your neighbor new house" ).

[Zanos]

So I just realized there's another facet to this as well.

How would you work out casting charm or suggestion and calculating it on a creature with magic resistance or some (but not complete) charm resistance?

I'm also assuming that if a creature has charm resistance with a percentage that applies to all charm type spells of all levels and not just the level 1 charm person?

Thanks for confirmation on this.

I'd like to hear it from someone else to make sure I'm not being too liberal with rules and such.
I've never heard of "charm resistance" other than high will save. If the victim has spell resistance, you roll your caster level against it normally.


Question:

if a charmed person is persuaded to do something not unreasonable, will the person understand he has been charmed?


Example:

if you Charm a customer into buying an item at a reasonable price, will he suspect something?

Probably not. However, even if you didn't originally get a spellcraft check against the charm(still+silent or whatever), you will get a spellcraft check after you make the save. You get a check against any spell that has a save, actually. DC is 25+level, though, so even trained spellcasters aren't likely to make it at low levels.
I guess you could also roll Sense Motive on yourself at any time.

[Segev]

Could Hypnotism be used to heal or at least soothe mental diseases?
Like givin to an aracnophobic a mental suggestion that normal, tiny spider can't harm him. Or suggest a paranoid that he isn't followed by enemies day and night.


And, how about giving artificial motivation to a student ( " You really like math" ) ?

Or ease an unpleasant emotion ( " You don't really feel so much envious of your neighbor new house" ).
Definitely within the purview of the spell. The character would, essentialy, have his attitude towards these things improved by 2. "Math is great!" could take somebody normally Hostile towards it and make him Neutral towards it, for example. Now he no longer would rather punch somebody for bringing it up than just get it over with. In fact, he's not even particularly unhappy doing it, as long as he's got nothing better to do or is being adequately rewarded for it.

[Endarire]

Charming is asking.

Dominating is forcing.

That's how someone explained it to me.

[Darth Ultron]

I mean could you totally turn a drow into deciding to be good? Example 1

A charm type spell might make them ''less evil'', but ''good'' is a bit of a stretch. Though you could sure get them to do ''good'' things, like show mercy when normally they might slaughter. Suggestion could ''make them good'', more or less, but ''good'' is still a bit vague and they would sure be on the ''good, but edge of evil side.''



Example 2; cast on two opposing race diplomats to help them sign a treaty when they are at war with each other

Charm might help them agree sure and a suggestion of sing the treaty would have them do that....



Example 3; find the hottest babe in town and persuade her to be your girlfriend. (depending on if you inherited your grandpa's face this may take repeat castings XD

As charms ''make the person your friend this is possible: but only as ''a friend'' and what a ''friend'' is can be open..but it would generally not be ''girl/boy friend like. So she might go see a play with you, but not want to kiss or do anything else. You'd literally be in the ''friend zone''.

Suggestion could do it, of course....but it might be awkward as she won't ''feel'' anything. So you'd have more a ''token girl friend'' and it sure would not be very romantic. And again what a ''girl friend'' is vague and can mean lots of things...and not what just the caster wants.



Example 4; Maybe you got example 3 to work but you did the same to another girl in another town too and you are living the warren jeffs fantasy. But wouldn't you need an extra stack of suggestion on both to not fight each other or kick you out for cheating on them now?

This would be a good example of something that might happen that the first spell would have no control over. One or both might do nothing or leave or attack the caster or each other or dozens of other things. So yes it would take more spells to control all that....and you really need to watch the pile up of spells.



Would that person be your ally? How far would they go to follow you? would they give you the shirt of their backs and all their cash to or how would the boundaries work out?

Is seduction necessary? And I assume you should be able to get farther with it if you have a seduction skill and/or high appearance/charisma etc...

Also in the drow example above...(assuming you overcame MR) would you need 2 suggestions? 1 for that person to overcome evil and the 2nd suggestion to be your eternal servant or follower?

As such as they think an 'ally'' might do. But it depends on lots of things as to what they might do.

Seduction would be necessary to make it more ''real'', unless you did not care.

You don't ''need'' two, unless you want both of them.