Quick question about "Make whole" spell.

[ZatriX]

Make Whole
Transmutation
Level: Clr 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One object of up to 10 cu. ft./ level

make whole completely repairs an object made of any substance, even one with multiple breaks, to be as strong as new.

Imagine, if you will, the following situation: the party is up in the air in the hot air balloon that has developed a tear. Lvl5 cleric argues, that he can fix the tear with "make whole" spell, because he is just applying it to a piece of cloth (the balloon is way bigger than 50 qu.ft). I insist that the object of the spell in this instance is the balloon itself, hence he cannot do it.

Thoughts?

[Deophaun]

(the balloon is way bigger than 50 qu.ft).
Is it really? What if it was on the ground, folded up? It wouldn't fit into a 2'X5'X5' area?

[Segev]

Really is a DM call, at that point. Do you allow parts of composite constructions to be targeted individually? There's room to argue you should. Walls, for example, get damaged by the 5 ft. square.

[ZatriX]

Is it really? What if it was on the ground, folded up? It wouldn't fit into a 2'X5'X5' area?
Not really. More like 10x25x10, the size of a carriage it was transported on.

[ZatriX]

Really is a DM call, at that point. Do you allow parts of composite constructions to be targeted individually? There's room to argue you should. Walls, for example, get damaged by the 5 ft. square.

This is my question exactly - would you count the wall as a whole object? Or that 5ft square? Or entire castle, for example?

[Segev]

Personally? I'd probably allow it. I try to err on the side of letting PCs solve problems than creating artificial obstacles enforced primarily by my own rulings.

But it does seem "DM call" territory.

[Nettlekid]

I would argue that the fabric of the balloon, if folded up and the air pressed out (that is to say, looking at the cloth alone and not the air currently in the cloth making the balloon puffed up) is probably less than 50 cubic feet. I don't know that for certain, but 50 cubic feet is quite a lot of material. So I'd let him do it on that, if you were being super technical.

If you felt like cutting him a break, you can decide if the balloon is made of many segments or patches of cloth sewn together (if this is a D&D fantasy world where you can't just factory-produce an enormous whole piece of cloth then I'd imagine this to be the case, like old fashioned hot air balloons) then one segment probably fits within the range of Make Whole.

But most importantly I would say this. The Cleric prepared a spell. It's a spell that fixes broken things. You have a broken thing. Let the Cleric cast the spell to fix the broken thing. It's a perfect example of what the spell is meant for, and either the Cleric gets to do it and be proud for having the forethought to prepare for any circumstance because a Cleric is a Tier 1 caster with a versatile spell list that can do anything in the right situation, or the DM tells the Cleric "no" and the Cleric gets to sit down and shrug and later convert that Make Whole into a Cure spell because all a Cleric is good for is being a Healbot.

What's the benefit to you for your Cleric being unable to fix the balloon? Are you another party member and you want to save the day yourself? Are you the DM and want to force drama onto the party and if they solve a problem in a different way than you wanted you'll just shut it down? Come on.

[ZatriX]

I am the DM, and the problem right here (ok, say the balloon is made up of individual patches and each is fixable) is the place with a tear is out of sight.

[Fizban]

Arms and Equipment Guide specifically allows Make Whole to repair an entire 10' section of a damaged ship, giving plenty of precedent for repairing this one hole in their hot-airship. If it's out of sight and/or reach that's a completely different problem, best find a way up there.

[Nettlekid]

I am the DM, and the problem right here (ok, say the balloon is made up of individual patches and each is fixable) is the place with a tear is out of sight.

That's not what I mean. What I mean is: You have designed a problem that you want the party to overcome in some way. One party member has a tool designed to overcome the exact kind of problem you have faced them with. If the party is okay with it, why not allow the Cleric to do what they want to do? Whether or not it's 100% rules legal (which honestly based on the better arguments than mine in this thread it seems pretty rules-legal) how would denying the Cleric the ability to cast Make Whole on the tear in the balloon make a better story and a better gaming experience for the group than allowing it?

[Zanos]

I am the DM, and the problem right here (ok, say the balloon is made up of individual patches and each is fixable) is the place with a tear is out of sight.
Shouldn't be a problem. I'm 99% sure the fabric of the balloon is less than the limitation of the spell, and make whole fixes the entire object.

If a giant is behind cover and you hit him with flesh to stone, his whole body still gets turned to stone.

[Segev]

I am the DM, and the problem right here (ok, say the balloon is made up of individual patches and each is fixable) is the place with a tear is out of sight.

If you want to maintain a level of drama and action, then, require that he get to where he can touch that particular patch, because "the whole balloon is too big, but you can fix the patch," or something like that. Now they have a challenge of getting the cleric to where he can fix the patch. It leaves a level of challenge beyond simply "cast spell; problem fixed" without invalidating the spell nor the solution it presents.

[Scorponok]

This thread is of great interest to me because I'm thinking of adding airships to my current campaign.

I agree with what others have said in regards to letting the PCs solve this unless there is some sort of story element that makes it important the PCs in the airship plummet to the ground. If that's the case, probably better to just have the enemy/outside forces just tear the balloon apart in multiple places and make it more obvious the PCs are not going to stay afloat.

My problem is more along the lines of airship defense. If the PCs throw a fireball at the airship, can the hole be repaired with a Make Whole? I can see fleets of airships employing clerics with boots of Spider Climb walking along the balloon part and waiting for a tear to repair.

[Fizban]

Make Whole specifically does not work on things that have been burned. It's also quite difficult to damage objects with a Fireball since they take half damage and then apply hardness. If you're actually using printed stats, the Zepplin and Dirigible in Arms and Equipment Guide specifically use segmented balloons that don't deflate with a single hole, and have 200hp even if they don't have hardness (until someone casts Hardening all over it, stupid spell).

[Segev]

Make Whole specifically does not work on things that have been burned. It's also quite difficult to damage objects with a Fireball since they take half damage and then apply hardness. If you're actually using printed stats, the Zepplin and Dirigible in Arms and Equipment Guide specifically use segmented balloons that don't deflate with a single hole, and have 200hp even if they don't have hardness (until someone casts Hardening all over it, stupid spell).

I'm not familiar with this spell. Why is it worthy of "stupid spell" used as a curse upon it?

[Deophaun]

I'm not familiar with this spell. Why is it worthy of "stupid spell" used as a curse upon it?
Hardening is a permanent duration spell that adds 1/2 CL to an object's hardness.

[Segev]

Hardening is a permanent duration spell that adds 1/2 CL to an object's hardness.

Ah, and with proper shenanigans, this makes objects have functionally infinite hardness. Gotcha.

[Fouredged Sword]

And it cannot be dispelled and there is no material cost to casting it.

There is literally no reason this spell doesn't get cast on EVERYTHING IMPORTANT as long as you have access to a high enough level caster.

[Psyren]

And it cannot be dispelled and there is no material cost to casting it.

Wait, what? It's permanent duration, not instantaneous, of course it can be dispelled (or disjoined.)

This also means you can't just harden the same thing over and over, only the highest-CL application will take effect.

[Deophaun]

And it cannot be dispelled and there is no material cost to casting it.
Neither of these is true. Although with a high-enough CL, dispelling is irrelevant, and the material cost is also minor.

[Nettlekid]

And it cannot be dispelled and there is no material cost to casting it.

There is literally no reason this spell doesn't get cast on EVERYTHING IMPORTANT as long as you have access to a high enough level caster.

It can totally be dispelled? It has a Permanent duration, so it can be dispelled like any spell with a duration. It would only be non-dispellable if it had Instantaneous duration.

EDIT: Double ninja'd.

[Doc_Maynot]

Maybe they're confusing it with the Dragonlance Campaign Setting version, that is instantaneous but costs about twenty times as much?

[Psyren]

Maybe they're confusing it with the Dragonlance Campaign Setting version, that is instantaneous but costs about twenty times as much?

He said no material cost though so I think he's looking at 3.5.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am getting confused then. I think I am remembering a group I was in that the party wizard cheesed a supernatural version.

[Nettlekid]

I am getting confused then. I think I am remembering a group I was in that the party wizard cheesed a supernatural version.

Probably by use of the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell. But that's a statement about Dweomerkeeper much more than Hardening.