Combat by Starlight

[Palanan]

I'm planning a combat encounter between PCs and an enemy scouting party, who will spring an ambush on a clear cold night. Each group has a mix of members with darkvision and low-light vision, and the combat may range between a wooded area and an enclosed area with no natural light source.

I understand that starlight counts as dim light, with a 20% miss chance--but I'm not sure whether the woods would reduce the available light even further, and if so whether that would impose an additional miss chance. I'm also not clear on how darkvision would interact with stealth checks in a wooded area, especially beyond 60 feet.

I'm trying to work out all the potential interactions and getting a little confused, so any clarifications would be welcome.

[Sayt]

Darkvision allows you to see up to X feet without light sources, and is not spoiled by the presence of light. so. A creature standing in a broad darklight or dim light or whatever cannot make a stealth check against a creature with darkvision, because LOS to the creature is not obstructed..

However, undergrowth provides concealment, which allows creatures to hide and make stealth checks. Darkvision does not prevent this because the concealment is gained from something other than light. Adjucating light levels in a forest is going to be a DM fiat. You ultimately decide whether or not the canopy lowers the light level.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sayt
A creature standing in a broad darklight....

What is a "broad darklight"? Not sure if this is a game mechanic I should be aware of.

And I'm still a little fuzzy on how darkvision works, especially past 60 feet. Does all a dwarf's vision cut out completely after 60 feet, or does he see things according to human standards after that distance?

[denthor]

Dark vision: Within 60 feet all combat normal hide normal see black and white.

65 to 90 feet shadow combat 20% miss chance hide works I would give a +2 to stealth checks sight only.

I think low vision is 120 feet?

Trees full moon can raise and lower all checks provide cover for line of sight etc. Missile fire not as far.

Oh and your baddies can climb trees.

[Sayt]

What is a "broad darklight"? Not sure if this is a game mechanic I should be aware of.

And I'm still a little fuzzy on how darkvision works, especially past 60 feet. Does all a dwarf's vision cut out completely after 60 feet, or does he see things according to human standards after that distance?

It's a play on 'broad daylight'. Sorry, that's me trying to be clever.

And basically creatures with darkvision perceive exactly the same in normal and bright light as creatures without darkvision do.

However, in the absence of light sources, creatures with darkvision can perceive out to 60ft (Usually. Some creatures get more, or less.) in black and white, but not beyond any distance

[ace rooster]

I don't know where you are getting that starlight is a 20% miss chance. Stars are really dim. As in, a candle 300m away is brighter than the brightest star. Humans cannot even see their own hand in front of their face in starlight. I could believe that some rulebook has a rule that ridiculous, but I wouldn't run it.

I might rule that low light vision gives a 20% miss chance in starlight, but even that would be a push. A single candle would grant a 20% miss chance out to 90' if we were to run by that.


Darkvision 60' is exactly what it says. It stops at 60'. Don't ask how.


Pathfinder is very different to standard 3.5 for this situation, because cantrips are free. This means that dancing lights are your go to tactic for target illumination.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ace rooster
I don't know where you are getting that starlight is a 20% miss chance.

I'm getting it from p. 172 of the CRB, which gives bright starlight as an example of dim light, which is defined as having a 20% miss chance. Fourth paragraph under "Vision and Light."


Originally Posted by ace rooster
Pathfinder is very different to standard 3.5 for this situation, because cantrips are free. This means that dancing lights are your go to tactic for target illumination.

Good tip, thanks.


Originally Posted by Sayt
However, in the absence of light sources, creatures with darkvision can perceive out to 60ft (Usually. Some creatures get more, or less.) in black and white, but not beyond any distance

That just seems…odd.


Originally Posted by denthor
Oh and your baddies can climb trees.

They already have. :smalltongue:

[Elder_Basilisk]

I would play that the tree canopy results in a further reduction of visibility:
A. Areas not under the canopy= Dim light;
B. Areas under the shadow of the tree canopy= total darkness.

This means that for characters with:

Low-light vision:
A. Characters in areas of dim illumination require cover or concealment in order to make stealth checks. If they don't have cover or concealment, they are automatically spotted. If they do have cover or concealment, they get their stealth check. If spotted and attacked, they do not benefit from a miss chance unless they are in concealment.
B. Characters in areas of total darkness do not require cover or concealment to make a stealth check. They are treated as invisible with the usual bonuses for stealth (they could still give themselves away by making noise but cannot be seen) and a 50% miss chance if attacked.

Darkvision:
A. Characters in areas of dim illumination require cover or concealment to make stealth checks if they are within range of the darkvision. If they are not within range of the darkvision, they have total concealment, and are treated as invisible with the usual consequences for stealth checks and miss chances.
B. Characters in areas of dim illumination require cover or concealment to make stealth checks if they are within range of the darkvision. If they are not within range of the darkvision, they have total concealment, and are treated as invisible with the usual consequences for stealth checks and miss chances.

Tactical considerations:
Low-light vision: in outdoor areas, low light vision will often work out to be more effective than darkvision. It will not be unusual for enemies to be visible in areas of low light at ranges of 120+ feet. This means that characters with low-light vision will be able to effectively attack enemies in areas of low-light without exposing themselves--particularly if those characters are under the forest canopy in areas of total darkness. Low light vision is most useful for ranged troops and spellcasters who can take advantage of the long sight lines available in starlight or moonlight.

Darkvision: Darkvision is great as long as you are within range. Characters will need darkvision or a light source to be able to effectively attack enemies in total darkness (such as under the canopy of the trees). Since the range of darkvision is usually 60 feet, characters with darkvision are often unable to see enemies before they are within melee range. The longer range darkvision of drow (along with their dancing lights SLA) has a dramatic impact on their tactical abilities. Darkvision is most useful for melee troops (since darkvision range is usually the same as charge range) and is at its best fighting underneath the canopy.

Light sources:
1. Light spell, a torch/magic weapon, or a lantern. This is the most basic light source and while it will enable characters without darkvision to fight effectively under the canopy, it has several significant drawbacks.
- Unless thrown (the light spell is the most practical to throw), it will illuminate the position of the bearer (and any nearby allies) to foes all around the battlefield regardless of whether they have low-light vision, darkvision, or normal unremakable vision. Carrying a torch, a light spell, or a magic weapon that sheds light as a torch is like painting a bullseye on your chest and carrying a sign that says "shoot me!"
2. Dancing lights is also a zero level spell and is a fairly common spell-like ability
-Dancing lights has a good range and can be moved a long ways as a free action every round. This makes it ideal for illuminating enemy positions without giving your own away.
3. Flaming sphere, etc. Flaming sphere does not explicitly say that it generates light, however I would rule that it generates light like a torch/bonfire. That enable it to perform similar functions to dancing lights, though with shorter range, worse action economy, and the possibility to do damage.
4. Daylight. 60 foot radius bright light plus an additional 60 feet of dim light beyond that is a game changer. The much larger radius enables characters to light up enemies who are beyond melee/charge range for their allies with low-light vision and for those without it, a 20% miss chance is not bad compared to not being able to see at all. It is also immune to regular darkness effects which can be significant.
5. Pyrotechnics. If the enemy relies on normal torches, this is effective for putting them out and debilitating them at the same time. However, odds are good that the enemy are not carrying torches (since most of them won't want to put the "shoot me now!" shirt on, so you probably need to send a fire source their way. Flaming arrows, flaming spheres, etc do good work.
6. Darkness. The most tactically significant use of darkness is probably dispelling dancing lights and preventing it from illuminating friendly positions. It will also reduce the light level in the starlit area, reducing it to total darkness and preventing low-light vision characters from being able to use their natural advantages (though darkvision characters can see in an area of darkness without penalty).

***Notice a theme here? 120 foot darkvision, dancing lights, and darkness are all really good things in this kind of scenario and the lowliest drow gets all of them. Drow have a huge advantage in this kind of scenario--not that you're necessarily using drow, but they are set up so well for it that it bears mention.

[Ashtagon]

I'm getting it from p. 172 of the CRB, which gives bright starlight as an example of dim light, which is defined as having a 20% miss chance. Fourth paragraph under "Vision and Light."


I am aware that PF (and 3.5 probably, and I think 2e too) treat starlight as akin to a modern urban road with street-lighting on.

It's unrealistic. I can personally attest from experience that with starlight only, you can't believably see your own hand if you wave it in front of your face. Realistically, starlight = effective blindness. However, anything from a crescent moon through to twilight (the time, not the media franchise) could realistically count as dim light.

I'm not quite sure why the rulebook would call it "bright starlight". Is there a "dim starlight" I was not aware of?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
*snip*

This…is just fantastic. Thanks for the detailed breakdown and tactical tips, this is outstandingly helpful.

Both groups are low-level, so spells like Daylight and Flaming Sphere won't be in play…but Dancing Lights definitely will be.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
Low light vision is most useful for ranged troops and spellcasters who can take advantage of the long sight lines available in starlight or moonlight.

As it happens, the enemy scouts are strongly slanted towards ranged combat, so this aspect will be central.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
Drow have a huge advantage in this kind of scenario--not that you're necessarily using drow, but they are set up so well for it that it bears mention.

Drow as such aren't in this region of my campaign world, but you certainly make a strong case for using them. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Ashtagon
I can personally attest from experience that with starlight only, you can't believably see your own hand if you wave it in front of your face. Realistically, starlight = effective blindness.

I've been out observing beneath spectacular skies in remote areas, and the starlight illuminates the landscape enough to walk by. Starlight can cast shadows when the conditions are right.

And in a preindustrial world, conditions will be right more often than not. With the light pollution and urbanization of the past century, we've lost our ancestors' broader awareness of all the night sky can be.


Originally Posted by Ashtagon
I'm not quite sure why the rulebook would call it "bright starlight". Is there a "dim starlight" I was not aware of?

Heavy humidity, among other things, can dim the stars to the point that only a few are visible in a velvet-dark sky. It's been more humid than usual where I am this summer, and on some clear, moonless nights the brightest stars in the constellations have been muted and dim, and the fainter stars lost altogether.

Under those conditions the sky might as well be overcast, and certainly doesn't help with illumination.

[Calthropstu]

Combat in the woods at night...

when I did that, I could barely see in front of my face. Even with the area riddled with glow sticks, it was really difficult to tell who was who. And when the fight drew me away from the glow sticks, I promptly began fighting a tree.

[Ashtagon]

I've been out observing beneath spectacular skies in remote areas, and the starlight illuminates the landscape enough to walk by. Starlight can cast shadows when the conditions are right.

And in a preindustrial world, conditions will be right more often than not. With the light pollution and urbanization of the past century, we've lost our ancestors' broader awareness of all the night sky can be.


https://www.gislounge.com/new-map-of-the-earths-night-lights/
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/712130main_8246931247_e60f3c09fb_o.jpg

I don't know where you were when you had that experience of seeing by "starlight". But if you were anywhere in Europe, USA, the southern Canadian strip, Mediterranean Africa, Arabia, European Russia, China, Japan, or India --- even the "remote" parts of those areas, you were getting major light pollution. In any of those areas, light pollution will often be sufficient to see by.

When I had my starlight scenario, I was on holiday in a small village in Zanzibar, a small island about 20 miles away from the east coast of Africa. No local street-lighting, even in the island's capital, and the mainland coast didn't have much night lighting either.

We tend to underestimate just how much light pollution there is from modern cities, even in supposedly remote areas.

It's worth bearing in mind that planetary albedo will have an effect. It will be easier to see by starlight if there is some cloud cover (this seems paradoxical, but partial cloud cover will reflect light back down, increasing the amount available to see by), or if the surface is naturally very light (e.g., snow or desert).

If anything, in a pre-industrial society without modern light pollution, night-time dark will be even darker, even in areas with dense human habitation.



Heavy humidity, among other things, can dim the stars to the point that only a few are visible in a velvet-dark sky. It's been more humid than usual where I am this summer, and on some clear, moonless nights the brightest stars in the constellations have been muted and dim, and the fainter stars lost altogether.

Under those conditions the sky might as well be overcast, and certainly doesn't help with illumination.

Okay, so "bright starlight" was more an indirect reference to cloud cover than anything else.