What's the deal with sacred and profane bonuses?

[digiman619]

I get that you want to differentiate the good guy gods from the bad guy gods, but what's the point of sacred and profane being two bonus types? Why not just "bestowed" or something to signify that another power is granting you this bonus? Because as is, being two separate bonus types just means that you want to be friends with a TN caster so that they can give you both bonuses.

Or was there a reason getting both at once is bad that I missed?

[Zhentarim]

I get that you want to differentiate the good guy gods from the bad guy gods, but what's the point of sacred and profane being two bonus types? Why not just "bestowed" or something to signify that another power is granting you this bonus? Because as is, being two separate bonus types just means that you want to be friends with a TN caster so that they can give you both bonuses.

Or was there a reason getting both at once is bad that I missed?

No...though you cannot get both at once.

[Malimar]

No...though you cannot get both at once.

Can't you? I'm not seeing it saying anything like that in the Modifiers section of The Basics.

[Calthropstu]

There really is no RAW "you can't have a sacred AND profane at the same time"

But seriously, good guys generally won't deal with someone willing to take a profane bonus... so unless he gets that sacred bonus first and it's persisted and the source can't take it away, it's not going to happen.

[Slithery D]

There's a recent FAQ or reliable dev comment that you can't benefit from both a sacred and profane bonus, which is very stupid and kills the entire point of having two types of bonus.

[Zaydos]

There is none, but looking through spells in the PHB, SpC, and Complete Champion there's only one line of spells that a non-evil cleric can cast which grants a Profane Bonus if they worship a Neutral deity. The only ways to get a Sacred bonus to Strength, however, are Animal Devotion, and the good line which as they're both 'take on physical characteristics of yada yada' there's an argument for them not stacking with each other or polymorph. That said if a non-Evil cleric is allowed the Hatred Domain without worshiping an Evil god they could get a profane bonus to several things.

Also there's a Blackguard spell that grants a Sacred bonus, and a [Good] Cleric spell that grants a Profane bonus if you're evil (here's a hint Evil clerics can't cast [Good] spells)...

Actually that last bit reminds me that theoretically a you could use [Good] descriptor cleric spells through an item while worshiping an Evil deity to double dip. Would you need UMD, though?

[Name1]

They are two different bonus types. If you want to wear an item giving a profane bonus to AC and a sacred bonus to AC, made via the item creation rules guidelines, there is nothing stopping you. Why they are different boni and why there is a divine boni that's different from that... Honestly, I can't think of a really good reason and I'm fairly certain the guys who wrote it couldn't either and just rolled with it.

[RedMage125]

Rules Compendium says nothing about that. Only that Sacred and Profane bonuses are uncommon.

[Malimar]

Also there's a Blackguard spell that grants a Sacred bonus, and a [Good] Cleric spell that grants a Profane bonus if you're evil (here's a hint Evil clerics can't cast [Good] spells)...

Evil Archivists can cast [Good] spells as far as I can tell, and in Eberron clerics can cast spells of any alignment descriptor. But it's still weird to have it as a standard cleric spell.

[Zaydos]

Evil Archivists can cast [Good] spells as far as I can tell, and in Eberron clerics can cast spells of any alignment descriptor. But it's still weird to have it as a standard cleric spell.

As written so can Favored Souls (cast [Good] spells despite being Evil that is). A Favored Soul directly empowered by Nerull can theoretically learn and cast Consecrate. A Favored Soul of Pelor could learn and cast Animate Dead and Desecrate. This is silly but... None of the non-Core casters have the alignment restriction on spells listed.

[Venger]

No...though you cannot get both at once.a
Yes you can. It's unlikely, since the bonus types are so rare in the first place and are often consequences of the same spell, giving a sacred bonus if you're good and a profane one if you're evil, but it's possible.

Perhaps you're thinking of a single character being disallowed from taking both vile and exalted feats? it's discussed in the same section so that might be it.

There's a recent FAQ or reliable dev comment that you can't benefit from both a sacred and profane bonus, which is very stupid and kills the entire point of having two types of bonus.

FAQ≠RAW

[Psyren]

I get that you want to differentiate the good guy gods from the bad guy gods, but what's the point of sacred and profane being two bonus types? Why not just "bestowed" or something to signify that another power is granting you this bonus? Because as is, being two separate bonus types just means that you want to be friends with a TN caster so that they can give you both bonuses.

Or was there a reason getting both at once is bad that I missed?

Maybe a given threat requires both a good god and a bad god to want you to win. This allows them both to buff you. Why is that bad?

Maybe drawing on both light and dark powers is part of your character's concept, Like, say, 90% of shonen protagonists.

[eggynack]

I kinda like them being different. Good and evil are different, y'know? Why would a good bonus just overlap with an evil bonus? It'd be more logical for them to fully negate each other, but having them both stick around is somewhere between the overlapping and the negation logic-wise.

[Eladrinblade]

FAQ≠RAW

Aren't they?

Source?

[Knitifine]

They're two different names for the same bonus. The developers had a thing where they wanted to edge the black and white morality as into the system as deep as they could so they were split into two different names that both represent the exact same thing.

[eggynack]

Aren't they?

Source?
Short version is that primacy rules dictate that, in any conflict between a primary source and a secondary source, the primary source is the victor. The FAQ, acting necessarily as a secondary source on every rules problem, because it's a source of rulings, can thus never win in a rule battle. That it's a source of rulings is also important because it means that the FAQ is also not more specific than the sources it references, which means it cannot take advantage of specificity rules in these conflicts. There is arguably some room for the FAQ to act, where the existing rules can be proved to be strictly ambiguous, but proving that can be difficult. And, actually, come to think of it, the FAQ would probably also fail in the two conflicting sources version of ambiguity, because it'd just be a third and less important source, leaving only situations with rule-silence driven ambiguity. There is a counterargument to all of this that claims primacy rules only mean anything at all with regard to the core books, because those are the only sources officially designated primary, but I am strongly of the position that primary source has a not game defined meaning that has rules implications in non-core cases.

And, yes, that was the short version. Because this whole issue is super controversial. Don't be surprised if it quickly consumes the entire thread. I've seen it happen before, and really recently too.

[digiman619]

They're two different names for the same bonus. The developers had a thing where they wanted to edge the black and white morality as into the system as deep as they could so they were split into two different names that both represent the exact same thing.

I get that, but if they went out of their way to state that (outside of dodge and I think competence bonuses) like bonuses don't stack, would it have killed them to say "sacred and profane bonuses count as one type"? Of if keeping them different was so frickin' important, use the difference for something! Maybe "If you would receive a profane bonus while you are under an effect with a sacred bonus or vice versa, instead negate the sacred bonus for the duration of the profane bonus' effect, or vice versa"

Doing neither seems like poor design, but since it was 3.0 that it started in, that's not surprising.

[Zaydos]

In Core the only Profane bonuses apply to effects antithetical to Sacred bonuses and in fact the source of said Profane/Sacred bonuses apply Profane/Sacred penalties to the opposite rolls, the spells can also be used to dispel each other (Consecrate/Desecrate, and Hallow/Unhallow). The exception is that undead made in a desecrated area got bonus hit points which weren't negated by consecrate, otherwise in Core Sacred bonuses and Profane ones actively cancel each other out.

It's only out of Core that things get messed up because people didn't pay attention to the basics of the core book.

[Knitifine]

DnD is not the most... elegant game.

[eggynack]

It's only out of Core that things get messed up because people didn't pay attention to the basics of the core book.
It's not like they really dropped the ball on this one out of core. It's pretty hard to get a profane and sacred bonus to the same stat. And I've gotta think that, if someone does manage it, might as well just let them have the bonus. Because, again, not really sure why these things wouldn't stack. Non-stacking is determined by similarity, and while sacred and profane operate similarly, the underlying power behind those bonus types are about as different as it gets.

[Zaydos]

It's not like they really dropped the ball on this one out of core. It's pretty hard to get a profane and sacred bonus to the same stat. And I've gotta think that, if someone does manage it, might as well just let them have the bonus. Because, again, not really sure why these things wouldn't stack. Non-stacking is determined by similarity, and while sacred and profane operate similarly, the underlying power behind those bonus types are about as different as it gets.

Exempting custom magic items, I think Animal Devotion and Strength Devotion + Infernal Transformation, Hatred Domain on a non-Evil cleric, or being a non-Evil undead cleric in a Desecrated area are the only ways.

Still if there's an issue with it, it's not something you can blame on the core design of 3.0 and more on the massive expansions in late 3.5 (specifically Complete Champion).

[Mordaedil]

Yeah, if it comes up a lot you can have the bonuses negate each other, but otherwise just let them stack for whoever in your game can figure out how to cast them both.

And if the paladin protests to profane bonuses, that's part of the fun.

[Slithery D]

a
FAQ≠RAW

Sorry, I was thinking Pathfinder.

[Deophaun]

Exempting custom magic items, I think Animal Devotion and Strength Devotion + Infernal Transformation, Hatred Domain on a non-Evil cleric, or being a non-Evil undead cleric in a Desecrated area are the only ways.
Also possible though a Lilitu's gift and inner beauty. Accepting the gift doesn't even move you towards evil to threaten the combination; just chaotic.

As a further bonus, these are both in the same book.