illusions in ad&d

[bookkeeping guy]

for reference I sometimes use 2e but also sometimes use 3e.

I was thinking its hard to understand what the limits are with illusions.

1) How many objects can be in an illusion active at a given time? ( would think this is affected by level and rank of spell? And is there a table for this? ) It would seem the most obvious application is in the illusion would be to create summoned illusion creatures in the summon and have them be bodyguards.

2) if doing 1) with max objects is the illusionist able to start another illusion that will have open illusion objects again or will they already be maxed out now that he's starting the 2nd illusion?

3) Let's say you are at the north pole and you are an illusionist...you create an illusion of a roaring bonfire to save your life...but the fire isn't real (and for some reason maybe you don't have fire spells.) is the illusion fire going to save you from hypothermia even though its not real?? How would you work that out?

4) Let's say you create an illusion of a vehicle that you and your pals get into to travel. Would it be fair to say that the vehicle's speed is confined and maxed by the amount of area the caster can handle by spell limits and level, applied to the time per round? (if the illusion wasn't propelling movement ie wagon, then it wouldn't matter.) (in other words max spell area divided by time = maximum speed of ilusion vehicle.) ?

Or would 4) be cheating because you don't really have a travel spell?

Its hard to know the limits of illusion spells because you wonder if its being sneaky and cheaty by not having those spells directly...it would seem that it wouldn't be fair for an illusion dog fighting a conjured/summoned dog would win because the illusion dog isn't real, unless the illusionist is more powerful than the conjuror...

5) Could an illusionist create a sentient illusion if he were powerful enough, smart enough, and maybe threw a permanency spell in there to keep the illusion powered long term? I'm curious about this one. It sounds kind of fun. What if he threw a wish in there to help it stay going...its possible he would probably still have to 'fill up the gas tank' once in a while.

What do you think?

Thanks for advice.

[Mordaedil]

Was the 5 pages in the AD&D 2nd edition manual not enough detailing on illusion magic?

[Necroticplague]

for reference I sometimes use 2e but also sometimes use 3e.

I was thinking its hard to understand what the limits are with illusions.

1) How many objects can be in an illusion active at a given time? ( would think this is affected by level and rank of spell? And is there a table for this? ) It would seem the most obvious application is in the illusion would be to create summoned illusion creatures in the summon and have them be bodyguards.

2) if doing 1) with max objects is the illusionist able to start another illusion that will have open illusion objects again or will they already be maxed out now that he's starting the 2nd illusion?

3) Let's say you are at the north pole and you are an illusionist...you create an illusion of a roaring bonfire to save your life...but the fire isn't real (and for some reason maybe you don't have fire spells.) is the illusion fire going to save you from hypothermia even though its not real?? How would you work that out?

4) Let's say you create an illusion of a vehicle that you and your pals get into to travel. Would it be fair to say that the vehicle's speed is confined and maxed by the amount of area the caster can handle by spell limits and level, applied to the time per round? (if the illusion wasn't propelling movement ie wagon, then it wouldn't matter.) (in other words max spell area divided by time = maximum speed of ilusion vehicle.) ?

Or would 4) be cheating because you don't really have a travel spell?

Its hard to know the limits of illusion spells because you wonder if its being sneaky and cheaty by not having those spells directly...it would seem that it wouldn't be fair for an illusion dog fighting a conjured/summoned dog would win because the illusion dog isn't real, unless the illusionist is more powerful than the conjuror...

5) Could an illusionist create a sentient illusion if he were powerful enough, smart enough, and maybe threw a permanency spell in there to keep the illusion powered long term? I'm curious about this one. It sounds kind of fun. What if he threw a wish in there to help it stay going...its possible he would probably still have to 'fill up the gas tank' once in a while.

What do you think?

Thanks for advice.
Note: for these answers, I'm assuming you're making the very common mistake of saying 'illusion' when you mean 'figment', because the other classifications of illusions are usually much more well-defined in what they do.

1.Mu. The only limit as to how much stuff an illusion can have is the area the spell covers. So you can have several creatures, but they'd need to be close together.

2.N/A. Each spell is wholly separate from any other spells you have up.

3.No. It can make you feel warm, but it will do exactly nothing to the effect of actually warming you up. This distinction already exists in real life with things like alcohol, which makes you feel warm, but actually causes you to freeze faster.

4.Figments are completely and utterly incapable of doing anything physically. You could make something that looks like a carriage, but you couldn't use it for travel, because you would pass right through it when you touched it. Same for the dog: you could make an image that looks like a dog, but it's teeth would pass right through anything it tried to 'bite', having no physical ability.

5.Yes, it's frankly not that hard. Programmed Image, at most, is a simple sentient illusion. A suffeciently complicated set of 'programming' could even be considered to be sapient. Sadly, not a valid target for Permanency.

[Eisfalken]

-Snip-

Side note to very accurate response: Shadow-type illusions are different because they are infused with "quasi-real" shadow-stuff.

This is why the spell shadow conjuration (and to a lesser extent shadow evocation) is considered one of the best bread-and-butter spells in the game: it can be any lesser kind of of conjuration spell, and other than having less damage, hp, etc., the effect still works fully otherwise.

For example, you can choose to duplicate a phantom steed spell with it. It has lower defensive stats because it's only quasi-real, but it retains its full movement and carry capabilities, including flight.

Now, you could just use the regular spell if it matters, but shadow conjuration can be any conjuration summoning or creation spell of a lower level. That's powerful because it's like having that slot set aside for "any conjuration I might need but don't know what I'll need yet". That utility is what makes it so good: the ability to change it into something else.

Now all you have to do is lower the target Will saves...

[Mordaedil]

Mind fog for -10 is a good choice. If you can trap the fog inside even better. Just a shame the spell only applies once.

[Khedrac]

If you really mean AD&D and not D&D then this post is in the wrong forum - AD&D goes in the "other rpgs" forum that is at the same level as this forum which is D20 (3rd Ed, 3.5 and pathfinder + variants) only.

The rules for D20 D&D and AD&D are very different - they are two separate games so answers in this forum that go into the rules will eb meaningless for AD&D. Ones that are more general may be of use, but you do need to clarify what systen you are asking for.

[bookkeeping guy]

Here's another thought...


Dimensional pockets being created by a mage ...could that be done with illusion and maybe adding some shadowshape in the mix too or would that come from something else entirely if he's trying to create it himself not use a pre-existing magical item to do so?

I'm not sure which area (Illuison or other) space shape, dimensional pockets, etc would fit into school or sphere wise?

[Necroticplague]

Things that make tiny dimensional pockets are typically Conjuration (see also: secret chest, magnificent mansion). If you use a sufficiently powerful shadow illusion variant, you can imitate these. For example, you could make a shadowy extredimensional chest to store stuff in using Greater Shadow Conjuration. You could make an shadowy extradimensional area to lounge around in using Shades.

[Darth Ultron]

1) How many objects can be in an illusion active at a given time? ( would think this is affected by level and rank of spell? And is there a table for this? ) It would seem the most obvious application is in the illusion would be to create summoned illusion creatures in the summon and have them be bodyguards.

2) if doing 1) with max objects is the illusionist able to start another illusion that will have open illusion objects again or will they already be maxed out now that he's starting the 2nd illusion?

3) Let's say you are at the north pole and you are an illusionist...you create an illusion of a roaring bonfire to save your life...but the fire isn't real (and for some reason maybe you don't have fire spells.) is the illusion fire going to save you from hypothermia even though its not real?? How would you work that out?

4) Let's say you create an illusion of a vehicle that you and your pals get into to travel. Would it be fair to say that the vehicle's speed is confined and maxed by the amount of area the caster can handle by spell limits and level, applied to the time per round? (if the illusion wasn't propelling movement ie wagon, then it wouldn't matter.) (in other words max spell area divided by time = maximum speed of ilusion vehicle.) ?

Or would 4) be cheating because you don't really have a travel spell?

Its hard to know the limits of illusion spells because you wonder if its being sneaky and cheaty by not having those spells directly...it would seem that it wouldn't be fair for an illusion dog fighting a conjured/summoned dog would win because the illusion dog isn't real, unless the illusionist is more powerful than the conjuror...

5) Could an illusionist create a sentient illusion if he were powerful enough, smart enough, and maybe threw a permanency spell in there to keep the illusion powered long term? I'm curious about this one. It sounds kind of fun. What if he threw a wish in there to help it stay going...its possible he would probably still have to 'fill up the gas tank' once in a while.

What do you think?

Thanks for advice.

1) This depends on the illusion spell used, of course. In general, with the figment illusion spells you can make an image of anything inside of the spell range. Making ''two orcs'' is no different then making ''one orc with boots and an axe'' or ''15 orcs''. To make an illusion of a ''orc fighter'' would take like ''12 objects'' (weapon, armor, boots, etc.) same way a ''knight on a horse'' is two creatures.

2)The only limit is the spells range and effect....and common sense. You could make an illusion of ''100 orcs in a 20 x20 room'', but they look odd and would not ''fit'' well.

3)An illusion of a fire, makes no heat. It's like putting in a DVD of a crackling fireplace.

4)Illusion spells create objects within areas, so the illusion can't go past that spot. (think of it like your making a holodeck in the area when you cast an illusion spell. ) You can't ''ride'' in an illusion of a boat anyway...

4B) The illusion of a dog would not harm a real dog, as it's just an image of a dog. Unless you get up to summoning a shadow dog or something like that is a real creature.

5)There is no spell in the game to do this. You can ''program'' an illusion, but not give it sentience.

[Endarire]

Consider silent image et al to be holograms or non-Undead ghosts. They're intangible.

As for how to rule interaction on these things, my GM and I proposed this solution.

There are 3 levels of interaction with silent image et al.

1: Unchallenged. There is nothing that makes this illusion seem like an illusion.

2: Challenged but believed. You challenged the illusion (touched an illusionary wall, felt illusionary fire but didn't burn, fell through an illusionary floor, etc.) but failed your Will save. You believe that something happened, but it wasn't an illusion.

3: Challenged and debunked. You challenged the illusion and passed your Will save. You know it to be an illusion.

- - - - - -

I apparently misread your OP.

A 'sentient' illusion may be a simulacrum.