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Forks
2007-07-10, 01:29 PM
Everyone complains that two of the monk's signature abilities - fast speed and flurry - dont work in conjunction with each other.

A small fix to help these guys could be:

"A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. However, a monk may still move up to his full bonus speed and still use flurry of blows."

The suggested change is in bold. Hope this hasnt been posted yet!

elliott20
2007-07-10, 01:31 PM
*insert obligatory "play a swordsage" post*

oh yeah, and this has been discussed a lot.

Droodle
2007-07-10, 01:31 PM
Giving the monk pounce (which is exactly what your suggested change does) at level one may be pushing it, but if the monk got it at level 8 or so, that could work. Add full BAB and an additional +1 to hit and damage per 4 levels into the mix, and we might have something.

Forks
2007-07-10, 01:38 PM
Yea I actually have never had much desire to play a monk, but I have two people in my group who are drawn to this class likes moths to flame. Im trying to figure out some way to spice it up in case they make more monks in the future.

Yea I agree that its essentially pounce. Could add some modifier saying you couldnt use this bonus-speed-only-movement for a charge until some higher level, like 7. Also, while it is pounce-like, its also for a class that is MAD and low BAB and etc.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-07-10, 01:39 PM
Chances to hit stuff can be overcome by magic items. This would work even without the full bab.

A Monk/Dervish with Versatile Unarmed Strike would be a fun character to play; that is essentially what this looks like also.

brian c
2007-07-10, 01:42 PM
Giving the monk pounce (which is exactly what your suggested change does) at level one may be pushing it, but if the monk got it at level 8 or so, that could work. Add full BAB and an additional +1 to hit and damage per 4 levels into the mix, and we might have something.

Actually, this isn't pounce; this would apply only to flurries, and not to regular full attacks. At any rate, Pounce at level 1 is only overpowered if you're doing a 1-level dip just for that ability. Making the ability affect only attacks with Monk-specific weapons (rules for Flurry) makes it pretty balanced I'd say.

As an aside, the "monk fix" that I thought of the other day is to give Dex bonus to damage, in addition to strength. It wouldn't be overpowered, but it gives a little boost and more importantly it helps out the MAD. Fluff-wise, force = mass*acceleration, so more dextrous = punch faster = more force = more damage. Possibly this would be a monk-only (or unarmed strike only) feat instead of a class feature.

Indon
2007-07-10, 01:42 PM
Giving the monk pounce (which is exactly what your suggested change does) at level one may be pushing it, but if the monk got it at level 8 or so, that could work. Add full BAB and an additional +1 to hit and damage per 4 levels into the mix, and we might have something.

It's not quite pounce. Pounce is full-attack on a charge. This is full-attack on less than one Monk move action (60 ft. at level 20), which does not have the same restrictions as a charge.

Droodle
2007-07-10, 02:34 PM
It's not quite pounce. Pounce is full-attack on a charge. This is full-attack on less than one Monk move action (60 ft. at level 20), which does not have the same restrictions as a charge.Yeah. It's actually better than pounce.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 02:39 PM
FYI, Barbarians now get Pounce at level 1 in exchange for Fast Movement, thanks to Complete Champion. Works great with Whirling Frenzy and/or natural attacks. So I see no problem in giving it to Monks - maybe in exchange for Slow Fall or Improved Evasion.

But yeah, play a Swordsage.

skywalker
2007-07-10, 02:41 PM
Yeah. It's actually better than pounce.

Indeed it is.

Which makes a monk 20 slightly more frightening. But it only helps straight monks, which I think is perfectly acceptable, they need all the help they can get.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 04:39 PM
Indeed it is.

Which makes a monk 20 slightly more frightening. But it only helps straight monks, which I think is perfectly acceptable, they need all the help they can get.

Not true. Flurry tops out at level 11, after which you generally want to go into a full BAB PrC. And there are about 5-6 PrC that have levels that stack with Monk levels to determine Flurry bonuses. So it'd be easy to conceive various abuses.

But still, its a melee build. So I say give them anything that helps.

Ramza00
2007-07-10, 04:57 PM
Sounds good. I would still give a few more things to monks to encourage people taking all 20 lvls.

Abundant Step an additional time per day every 2 lvls. Thus 1 at lvl 12, 2 at lvl 14, 3 at lvl 16, 4 at lvl 18, 5 at lvl 20.

Dex to Damage at lvl 13 with Monk only weapons.

Mettle at lvl 15 (if normally has an effect for a partial effect on a successful fort or will save, you are unaffected if you save.)

Dex to Attack at lvl 17 with Monk only weapons (thus helping the AB bonus, note you will not get bab 16 in epic unless you delay your epic progression and take monk 17 at lvl 21). If already has Weapon Finesse or similar effect you can add your Str to Attack in conjunction to Dex to Attack, you can not though do Dex to Attack twice.

Improved Mettle at lvl 20 (on a failed fort or will save you are only affected by the partial option.)

Forks
2007-07-10, 06:07 PM
suggestions...

Those are some pretty good ideas. I'll probably float them along next time someone i play with tries to make a monk. Hopefully it'll stop them from getting frustrated.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-10, 06:31 PM
Yeah. It's actually better than pounce.
It's not better, it's different ... all the ways of improving damage on charges won't work with this ability for instance. Also at level 1 you don't even have a speed bonus, so you get nothing.

PS. improved mettle is a bit over the top IMO.

Jimbob
2007-07-11, 02:03 AM
In my eyes there is nothing wrong with the monk!! It has so many abilities and there are so many things you can do with it, changing the monk will only over power it in my eyes!

kpenguin
2007-07-11, 02:09 AM
What would you guys think of having the monk get free enhancement bonuses on his fists instead of getting increased damage dice? Similar to a soulknife, but with a better progression and cap (because soulknives suck!)

Ikkitosen
2007-07-11, 02:27 AM
What would you guys think of having the monk get free enhancement bonuses on his fists instead of getting increased damage dice? Similar to a soulknife, but with a better progression and cap (because soulknives suck!)

I'd say take the Kensai PrC and enchant your unarmed strike instead.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-11, 02:34 AM
In my eyes there is nothing wrong with the monk!! It has so many abilities and there are so many things you can do with it, changing the monk will only over power it in my eyes!

Before you get jumped on by the statistically minded among us...

If you look at the monk chart you will see that yes, in fact, they get all kinds of interesting abilities and lots of them. However, if you examine them a little you will find that they do not work together to form a common goal aside from survival. That really is what a monk does best, live.

Ramza00
2007-07-11, 03:02 AM
Improved Mettle is good but isn't that good. It stops things mostly like disentigrate but not like dominate person. Furthermore if I recall there is an item in MIC that gives you improved mettle some times per day if you have mettle so for a 20th lvl ability it isn't out of line.

Jimbob
2007-07-11, 04:00 AM
Hadrain_Emrys, I had realised that when I posted my reply lol.

But its not the fact that, as you said all they can do is survive, they can do it in so many ways. A fighter beats people with a huge axe or club, this is just another way of surviving is it not?

In my eyes and once again I realise I might get knocked back. the monk is not BROKEN! you start giving it things like a weapon enhancment instead of a increase in unarmed damage, you might as well take another class and spend your gold on magic weapons. They get a increase in speed you take that away, you migth as well be a wizard that casts haste. And what a lot of people seem to forget is that you still get feats that let you take different things, go down paths that you want to go down. A monk is a focused warrior that uses non-weapon attacks and the extra bits they get for leveling up out-way every thing else.

Attilargh
2007-07-11, 04:22 AM
But its not the fact that, as you said all they can do is survive, they can do it in so many ways. A fighter beats people with a huge axe or club, this is just another way of surviving is it not?
In a way, but doing that, a fighter contributes to the party's survival as well. The monk... Occupies a five-foot square.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-11, 04:31 AM
Jim, take a look at every base class in every book you own. Please do try and find a class that has an inherent defense against every form of suck the almighty casters can dish out while also being capable of going toe to toe with mundane attack users without getting tagged by every attack. Now, look at those same classes and instead of seeing how well he can survive look at how he competes against said classes in their specialties. Can he out soak or out dpr a front liner? Can he come close to being as versatile as a standard skill monkey? Hell, what can he do that a caster can't duplicate or do better?

As they stand now, monks are a 5th wheel class, one who's spot would better be filled by a bard if not another member of the other four standard role classes.

Jimbob
2007-07-11, 04:48 AM
Hadrian, you have a very valid point, a monk will never out do a wizard or spell caster, but neither will any other class in that matter. And in my eyes a monk is the same if not better then a fighter. Wisdom bonus to AC, a AC bonus. Damage getting more and more every few levels. And what is stopping the monk from taking power attach. Yes i do admit again that he wont be as good to hit cos there base attack is not so good, so a bit of a down side there. But look at things like his saves, he wont be effected by a hold person spell like a fighter would. He can dodge a fireball better then a fighter can and with evasion takes no damage, so another point to the monk. they get Ki strike (magic), so that solves the probelm of needing magic to hit some monsters so he can. Speed increase, they move alot faster then a fighter in full plate, or any armor for that matter. Now i will step down and say in a party of four, you need your 4 base classes, but in my eyes there is nothing stopping the monk replacing the fighter. You dont get as many feats as a fighter, granted, but they are a class that does not need to be mocked like it does.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-11, 04:58 AM
in my eyes there is nothing stopping the monk replacing the fighter. You dont get as many feats as a fighter, granted,

It's funny how those two sentences are a direct contradiction.

Jimbob
2007-07-11, 05:07 AM
Yeah I had noticed, but I was hoping know one would pick up on it.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-11, 05:27 AM
Counter Argument 1: AC

In order for a monk to match a fighter's full plate you would need 18 Wis. In order to keep things even still there's the full plate's 1 Dex bonus cap. So both would also have a minimum of 12 Dex. From here it's something of a nasty trick because the monk can either up his Dex further or spend a fortune on ac upping rings, bracers, and what have you to keep up with a fighter's shield and enhancements to defensive equipment or he can deal with the other problem that a fighter brings to the table:

Counter Argument 2: DPR

While the monk tries to get his Dex and Wis high enough to keep up with the fighter he forgets one important stat: Str. While a fighter with a greatsword (the wonder stick) can make full use of power attack and str 1 1/2 damage per swing due to his full BAB the monk can try and keep pace by also getting the 13 Str requirement but faces the problem of not having the BAB to back up the feat. To make matters worse, an unarmed strike is simply + Str without that extra little 1/2 kick. Speaking of kicks, what happens when these two combatants each catch one in the junk?

Counter Argument 3: Soak

The fighter's d10 makes for a reliable tank whereas a monk's d8 isn't bad. A fighter can easily put forth some points into Con, what with his min req of 13 Str and 12 Dex while the monk has that 13 Str, 12 Dex, and 18 Wis to keep in mind. The fighter can spend his game focusing on Str and Con with just enough Dex to not make the most of his gear while the monk has to scramble to deal with 4 way mad just to try and break even with the fighter's minimum.

Jimbob
2007-07-11, 07:16 AM
Hadrian_Emrys I take my hat off to you, you have shot my whole argument down. And i do admit that the monk does rely on 2 good stats and 2 ok stats, but in my eyes its a top class to play and if I got the stats I would play it over a fighter any day. Nothing else to say on that really, good show squire :smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-11, 07:20 AM
I agree. If I have the stats to spend on it I'm a fan of the monk despite it's shortcomings. I just want to see some changes in the class to bring it up to par with what it should accomplish aside from looking out for number one.

skywalker
2007-07-11, 11:02 AM
Monks make pretty good spies, scouts, etc, if you put ranks in the right things. No, not as good as an invisible wizard, but flavor wise it makes more sense.

Monks are also the ultimate PC killers. Force a fortitude save every time you stunning fist, move twice as fast, etc. They're also so damned hard to kill, they're frustrating as hell.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-11, 01:39 PM
Making Flurry useable anytime they have an attack action available would be nice and simple.

Move->Flurry(so you can do 3 attacks instead of 1)
Charge->Flurry(ditto. Slightly worse than a pounce, in that you don't get the iteratives, but better, because all your attacks are at maximum BAB)
Something else->Flurry

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 02:41 PM
Monks are also the ultimate PC killers. Force a fortitude save every time you stunning fist, move twice as fast, etc. They're also so damned hard to kill, they're frustrating as hell.

Heh, saying that is like the equivalent of casting "Call Lightning" on yourself on these boards. I would say the monk is probably a little better than most people on here make it out to be, but as far as PC-killers go, it's probably sub-par.

Bassetking
2007-07-11, 05:12 PM
Monks make pretty good spies, scouts, etc, if you put ranks in the right things. No, not as good as an invisible wizard, but flavor wise it makes more sense.

Monks are also the ultimate PC killers. Force a fortitude save every time you stunning fist, move twice as fast, etc. They're also so damned hard to kill, they're frustrating as hell.

They're also so damned hard to kill.

Truth.

Force a fortitude save every time you stunning fist.

Truth.

Move twice as fast.

Truth.

Monks are also the ultimate PC killers.

Falsehood.

brian c
2007-07-11, 05:29 PM
They're also so damned hard to kill.

Truth.

Force a fortitude save every time you stunning fist.

Truth.

Move twice as fast.

Truth.

Monks are also the ultimate PC killers.

Falsehood.

Well, it depends on what class the PC is, and what feats and equipment the monk has. If you match it up perfectly, they can be great. I think he was referring to an NPC monk as an opponent; the DM can tailor-make a monk character to beat on the PC's weaknesses, and while not as good as a full caster it can still be very effective and frustrating for the player.

Bassetking
2007-07-11, 05:33 PM
Well, it depends on what class the PC is, and what feats and equipment the monk has. If you match it up perfectly, they can be great. I think he was referring to an NPC monk as an opponent; the DM can tailor-make a monk character to beat on the PC's weaknesses, and while not as good as a full caster it can still be very effective and frustrating for the player.

In which case, it is not the Monk that is killing the PC, but rather DM Fiat.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-11, 05:43 PM
I must admit I'm rather new to these forums, but I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Do we really hold this discussion every week?

Piccamo
2007-07-11, 05:52 PM
I must admit I'm rather new to these forums, but I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Do we really hold this discussion every week?

Apparently so.

Indon
2007-07-11, 05:59 PM
Monks are also the ultimate PC killers.

Falsehood.

Monks have high PC-killing ability given their general level of power.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-11, 06:14 PM
Monks have high PC-killing ability given their general level of power.

PCs have high monk-killing ability given their general low level of power.

Hah :smallamused:

brian c
2007-07-11, 07:41 PM
In which case, it is not the Monk that is killing the PC, but rather DM Fiat.

No. If the DM says "rocks fall, you die" that's DM fiat. If the DM says "a Monk hits you, you die", that's DM fiat. If the DM makes a character optimized specifically for fighting one of the PCs, that's not fiat. It might not be entirely fair, but as long as the DM isn't being particularly antagonistic about it (and doesn't get angry if the PC wins) then I don't see a problem with it.


Also:

I must admit I'm rather new to these forums, but I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Do we really hold this discussion every week?

Yeah, pretty much. Also, full casters win. And Epic Spellcasting is broken.

Matthew
2007-07-11, 09:52 PM
Don't forget 'Tome of Battle, pros and cons', 'Two Weapon Fighting Sucks' and 'Monkey Grip (need I say more)'

Bassetking
2007-07-11, 10:37 PM
http://www.roflcats.com/images/0176.jpg

In regards to the re-ignition of the debate...:smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-11, 11:36 PM
Don't forget 'Tome of Battle, pros and cons', 'Two Weapon Fighting Sucks' and 'Monkey Grip (need I say more)'

And that Kobold who's name must never be spoken will have his name spoken across the board just because.

Also, Monks are great for obnoxious NPCs for PCs to kill, not as obnoxious NPCs to kill PCs.

brian c
2007-07-12, 12:36 AM
Geez... there should just be a sticky with a list of topics that are commonly discussed, for new people. "If you ask about Monkey Grip, everyone will tell you it sucks. If you want to do anything, Wizard will be the suggestion" etc just to let people know.