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bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 01:36 PM
Recently, a lot of threads have stated that all fantasy ends past level 5 at which point it becomes wuxia/superheroes. To some degree I agree with you, but was also wondering how you address the following instances.

LoTR Stories-
Gandalf's instant death effect against both two orc's and the high powered orc leader in the Hobbit, when they are taken prisoner in the misty mountains.
Gandalf's Quench or darkness that he uses to darken a large room in the same instance.
Gandalf's shattering of the bridge at Kazad Dum followed by his ability to survive a massive fall.
Fingolfin's battle against Morgoth, essentially a God, which greatly crippled him.

Wheel of Time-
Traveling- Visually a gate, functionally a teleport circle, either are 9th level.
Ability to shift from one plane to another, both Tel'aran 'rhoid and the dark place that allows rapid travel.
Wall of force-even the lowest level Aes'Sedai know this one, as Elayne used it when she was tested.
Wall of Fire and Earthquake- I seem to recall Moiraine using both of these as they flee from the Trollocs in The Eye of the World
Balefire-This goes even beyond D&D, as it is an instant death effect, allowing no save, which undoes the actions of the subject for several rounds (like Wish) and prevents any resurrection, including that of Deities, such as the Dark One.

Raymond Feist's works-
I haven't read these in forever, but I seem to recall Pug's abilities being phenomenal when he destroys the area of the tsurani wizards during the riftwar. Also, I know he knows how to Teleport without error.

Belgariad/Mallorean-
Again, read these a while ago, but I remember great spells, controlling the weather, restoring the dead, creating tons of matter, and other powerful spells.

Admittedly, these books don't perfectly model D&D, for instance in The Wheel of Time you can't fly, but these powers still can't be accounted for in five levels of experience.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 01:40 PM
Gandalf is supposed to be a demigod. Also: Feather fall, shatter, mooks, darkness.

EDIT: Or something. I read it here :smallsigh:

Hey, I actually read Simarillion. When statting stuff out for D&D, if you find a Maia template, tell me :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2007-07-10, 01:48 PM
Recently, a lot of threads have stated that all fantasy ends past level 5

That's nonsense. For instance, Feist's books were based upon a roleplaying campaign that quite obviously made it into high levels. If you want D&D stats, Pug, Tomas and Macros are near-epic at the least. Characters like Belgarath, likewise; the man is a near-avatar of the god of magic.

The more common argument is that everything in Tolkien's books is 5th level or lower, but many people disagree with that. Apart from Gandalf, who indeed is a Higher Being (Maia).

Apparently a design concept is that everything in the real world is 5th level or lower, and people still disagree with that.

bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 01:55 PM
Gandalf is *not* just a demigod. He is a Maia, but the Istari took human form, so he is limited to a fraction of his potential power. This is the reason the Gandalf or Saruman, even when teamed up with other powerful characters, could never take on Sauron (who was a full strength Maia) head on, nor could they ever reach the power of other maiar, such as Melian, who kept a God (Melkor) at bay. While they may be Maiar in spirit, in theory, they shouldn't be much more powerful than a mortal could be.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-10, 02:02 PM
I have not read these other threads but allow me to say: they are wrong. You can have a fantasy tone easily at higher levels so long as it's done right. Things like 'casting time' and 'material components' and 'level appropriate encounters' need to be maintained though and many games don't.

Other examples of fantasy with D&D like abilities:

Conan the Barbarian:
The bbeg polymorphs into a giant snake.

The Shanara Series:
As I recall Allanon casts a many many times maximised invisibility and permency (or similar effects) on the Druids keep (name I forget). I haven't read this series in a long long time but I'm sure there are tons of other spells like that cast as well.

And just for the Disney factor:

The Sword in the Stone:
Merlin casts polymorph quite a few times as well as animate objects.

Sleeping Beauty:
Again with polymorph, scrying, teleport, and sleep + permency (or something similar).

I'm sure there are many others if I wanted to take the time looking.

bosssmiley
2007-07-10, 02:07 PM
Hey, I actually read Simarillion. When statting stuff out for D&D, if you find a Maia template, tell me :smallbiggrin:

Google Faenaro's "Faces of Middle Earth". :smallwink:

Rule #34 of D&D: "There is PrC of it, NO exceptions!"

Lapak
2007-07-10, 02:17 PM
Having read the other threads, that was never their argument. There are explicitly high-magic fantasy settings. The argument was that everything in non-superhuman (that is, everything in the real world) can be modeled at level 5 or lower, and that much of the most popular and most referenced fantasy fiction is at these non-superhuman levels.

LotR and Lankhmar are two of the often-quoted examples, as well as Conan. But no one suggested that ALL fantasy is at or below level 5.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-10, 02:51 PM
So, basically it was an argument that could be resolved by which power level setting more fantasy novels have? Why argue? Just count.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 03:00 PM
Curse you! Impossible!

Wow, that's actually really impressive. Finally, elves have good LA.

Lapak
2007-07-10, 03:38 PM
So, basically it was an argument that could be resolved by which power level setting more fantasy novels have? Why argue? Just count.The original argument was spawned from the tendency of people to stat out Conan, Fafhrd, Aragorn et. al. as somewhere between 16th level and epic, because they are such legendary heroes. It was pointed out that given what they actually did in the written sources, and what posed a significant threat to them, and what D&D characters could do, most gritty or semi-realistic characters fit better into the ~5th level slot.

It was an argument over nothing, with little overall significance, but it was an interesting point.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-10, 03:44 PM
It was an argument over nothing, with little overall significance, but it was an interesting point.

Yep. Now take a look at the FR novels about Drizz'l and Elminster and so forth. Of course they are level-5 as well, no? :smallbiggrin:

bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 03:49 PM
LotR and Lankhmar are two of the often-quoted examples, as well as Conan. But no one suggested that ALL fantasy is at or below level 5.

Your implication is that LoTR is below level five fantasy, and my point is that it isn't. I have read neither Lankhmar, nor Conan, but I can't think of a single fantasy series/book which could occur at really low levels.

And AKA_Bait- Thanks for pointing out the Shannara series, I had forgotten. The elfstones, the wishsong, and the magic of Morgawr (among other things) all involve higher than 5th level.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-10, 04:04 PM
The original argument was spawned from the tendency of people to stat out Conan, Fafhrd, Aragorn et. al. as somewhere between 16th level and epic, because they are such legendary heroes. It was pointed out that given what they actually did in the written sources, and what posed a significant threat to them, and what D&D characters could do, most gritty or semi-realistic characters fit better into the ~5th level slot.

It was an argument over nothing, with little overall significance, but it was an interesting point.

Humm. That seems just silly. Stating out characters from entirely diffrent systems (ontologies or whatever we want to call it for various fantasy settings) with totally diffrent mechanics is comparing apples and Kumquats.

How's about we stat out Harry Potter? Even Hogwarts students can, if they are evil enough, essentially cast Finger of Death and Wrack. Is Harry level 12+? This is a little of an extreme example, I'll grant you but it just illustrates the point that when the universe is constructed vastly diffrently from the one in D&D in terms of mechanics then any attempt to transplant characters and stat them out accordingly is destined to fail.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-10, 04:07 PM
[QUOTE=bugsysservant;2860332] I can't think of a single fantasy series/book which could occur at really low levels.[QUOTE]

That might be going a bit far. The Song of Fire and Ice pretty much could. Certianly the first few books do.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-10, 05:05 PM
That might be going a bit far. The Song of Fire and Ice pretty much could. Certianly the first few books do.

Yes, except for Dhaenerys and her husband :smallsmile:

I think for Harry Potter it'd be fair to say he gets one level each book. Only the class is waaaaay different from a D&D wizard. Plus it doesn't have spell levels and spells per day and all that Vancian stuff.

But yeah, there's mundane fantasy and epic fantasy. Some of Mercedes Lackey's heroes are pretty mundane (others, like Vanyel, most definitely are not). Most characters in Robin Hobb's novels are "normal" humans too. And then there's fantasy where everybody throws energy bolts around and whatnot, like the Deathgate cycle or the Amber Chronicles.

Incidentally (I believe I've said this before) modelling characters from books or films is far easier with a skill-based system, because you can just give them the skills they actually have, than with a level-based system where everything is assumed to come in neat packages.

horseboy
2007-07-10, 05:59 PM
Recently, a lot of threads have stated that all fantasy ends past level 5 at which point it becomes wuxia/superheroes. To some degree I agree with you, but was also wondering how you address the following instances.

LoTR Stories-
Gandalf's instant death effect against both two orc's and the high powered orc leader in the Hobbit, when they are taken prisoner in the misty mountains.
Gandalf's Quench or darkness that he uses to darken a large room in the same instance.
Gandalf's shattering of the bridge at Kazad Dum followed by his ability to survive a massive fall.
Fingolfin's battle against Morgoth, essentially a God, which greatly crippled him.

Gandalf wasn't playing D&D, he was playing rolemaster. Ever seen Glamdring's stats in rolemaster? It's a sick, sick sword. Mithril so it's at least +20 (Think the full OB was around +30, but I don't have my book anymore so I'm not sure), holy and of slaying orcs plus a few other tricks. Those orcs took a holy, 2 slaying and probably at least a B or C slash crit with each hit. That's enough to kill anybody pretty quick.

Utterdark, 18th level

Cracks' Call 5th level. Oh, and technically, he DIDN'T survive the fall, that was a DM fiat of the Valar sending him back to finish his job, giving him a "free" rez.


Wheel of Time-
Traveling- Visually a gate, functionally a teleport circle, either are 9th level.
Ability to shift from one plane to another, both Tel'aran 'rhoid and the dark place that allows rapid travel.
Wall of force-even the lowest level Aes'Sedai know this one, as Elayne used it when she was tested.
Wall of Fire and Earthquake- I seem to recall Moiraine using both of these as they flee from the Trollocs in The Eye of the World
Balefire-This goes even beyond D&D, as it is an instant death effect, allowing no save, which undoes the actions of the subject for several rounds (like Wish) and prevents any resurrection, including that of Deities, such as the Dark One.

Raymond Feist's works-
I haven't read these in forever, but I seem to recall Pug's abilities being phenomenal when he destroys the area of the tsurani wizards during the riftwar. Also, I know he knows how to Teleport without error.

Belgariad/Mallorean-
Again, read these a while ago, but I remember great spells, controlling the weather, restoring the dead, creating tons of matter, and other powerful spells.

Admittedly, these books don't perfectly model D&D, for instance in The Wheel of Time you can't fly, but these powers still can't be accounted for in five levels of experience.
Haven't read these books, so I don't know.

PS, what does "Wuxia" mean?

bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 06:23 PM
Gandalf wasn't playing D&D, he was playing rolemaster. Ever seen Glamdring's stats in rolemaster? It's a sick, sick sword. Mithril so it's at least +20 (Think the full OB was around +30, but I don't have my book anymore so I'm not sure), holy and of slaying orcs plus a few other tricks. Those orcs took a holy, 2 slaying and probably at least a B or C slash crit with each hit. That's enough to kill anybody pretty quick.

Utterdark, 18th level

Cracks' Call 5th level. Oh, and technically, he DIDN'T survive the fall, that was a DM fiat of the Valar sending him back to finish his job, giving him a "free" rez.

Haven't read these books, so I don't know.

PS, what does "Wuxia" mean?

Don't know rolemaster, but technically he did survive the fall, made it up the infinite stair, and cast the Balrog down from the top of the mountain of Moria. Then and died and was reborn and whatnot. Also, he was powerful even before he obtained Glamdring, and all the creatures I know of that he killed in The Hobbit were strictly with magic.

P.S. You should definitely read the wheel of time series. On an online poll with hundreds of fantasy books and series, it was rated third, after the Hobbit and LoTR.

P.P.S. Wuxia is the crazy martial arts that you can see in such movies as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Calling it Wuxia is just saying that no human could actually do that, but it isn't as powerful as gods or superheroes.

goat
2007-07-10, 06:24 PM
I think that the thing to remember with most fantasy is that the main characters are normally in either the "once a generation" or "once an era" scale of things. We're talking about a few high level characters in the whole WORLD, who are commonly on opposing sides with a sort of "there can be only one" thing going on.

The man who slays a dragon that has terrorised a region for centuries, the wizard who defeats a legendary dark presence, the warlord who unites the clans into a mighty nation. These people are rare, and along with that quite a lot of the typical fantasy heroes are equipped with some fairly "game-breaking" artefacts. A lot of big magic is more closely approximated by rituals and the epic casting system, taking a lot of time and with multiple casters.

bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 06:29 PM
I think that the thing to remember with most fantasy is that the main characters are normally in either the "once a generation" or "once an era" scale of things. We're talking about a few high level characters in the whole WORLD, who are commonly on opposing sides with a sort of "there can be only one" thing going on.

The man who slays a dragon that has terrorised a region for centuries, the wizard who defeats a legendary dark presence, the warlord who unites the clans into a mighty nation. These people are rare, and along with that quite a lot of the typical fantasy heroes are equipped with some fairly "game-breaking" artefacts. A lot of big magic is more closely approximated by rituals and the epic casting system, taking a lot of time and with multiple casters.

I agree with you about the rarity of high level characters, but, theoretically, in D&D, high level characters are also rare. It just doesn't work out that way because you need sufficient appropriate level encounters.

What is really up for debate would be that no humans in fiction or real life could ever match the power of D&D at levels above five, which just isn't true.

horseboy
2007-07-10, 06:37 PM
Don't know rolemaster, but technically he did survive the fall, made it up the infinite stair, and cast the Balrog down from the top of the mountain of Moria. Then and died and was reborn and whatnot. Also, he was powerful even before he obtained Glamdring, and all the creatures I know of that he killed in The Hobbit were strictly with magic.

Yeah, until the movies came out Rolemaster was the official game system. They did stats for them throughout the series. At the end I think he was something stupid like 53 level or so.


P.S. You should definitely read the wheel of time series. On an online poll with hundreds of fantasy books and series, it was rated third, after the Hobbit and LoTR.

Yeah, my friends talk about it a lot, but I always forget when I'm at the book store. :smallannoyed:

Lapak
2007-07-10, 07:08 PM
Your implication is that LoTR is below level five fantasy, and my point is that it isn't. I have read neither Lankhmar, nor Conan, but I can't think of a single fantasy series/book which could occur at really low levels.I'm not going to re-hash the whole argument - I find the 'real life' part far more interesting - but leaving aside the prior Ages and taking only the LotR main series, everything in it could have been done by level 5 characters, save the Gandalf/Balrog fight - which he sent them away from because they were unqualified, and he was a demigod-slash-angel.

The other people fight crowds of orcs and the occasional single troll. They cross the countryside, hide in shadows, and lead men. All of that is completely within the grasp of a level 5 fighter or rogue.

Beyond that, you'll have to look up the original thread if you want to read the other arguments - it would be silly to have the whole thing again.

bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 07:29 PM
I'm not going to re-hash the whole argument - I find the 'real life' part far more interesting - but leaving aside the prior Ages and taking only the LotR main series, everything in it could have been done by level 5 characters, save the Gandalf/Balrog fight - which he sent them away from because they were unqualified, and he was a demigod-slash-angel.

The other people fight crowds of orcs and the occasional single troll. They cross the countryside, hide in shadows, and lead men. All of that is completely within the grasp of a level 5 fighter or rogue.

Beyond that, you'll have to look up the original thread if you want to read the other arguments - it would be silly to have the whole thing again.

Counting the Hobbit as in the "LotR main series", I specifically noted an Instant Death effect of a high level orc, something no DM should allow for a 5th level character. Also, he had killed multiple orcs simultaneously with a single spell.

Also, fighting off the ring wraiths with only a burning club at weathertop (which Aragorn did), when Gandalf was unsure if he could take on a single Nazgul (the witch king at the battle of Minas Tirith), could arguably put Aragorn, or even Eowyn higher level than Gandalf.

Finally, the fact that Aragorn was able to heal people affected by the black breath when the best healers at Minas tirith couldn't speaks a lot. The healer was aided by another, would have had maxed out ranks, and since he was solely a healer, he probably would have had skill focus (heal) and masterwork, or magic equipment. And he had plenty of time to take 20 on the check. Aragorn waltzed in, and with only a single random check with no help, succeed. His high level more than made up for the lack of other bonuses.

Callix
2007-07-10, 07:46 PM
I'd just like to comment on the WoT stuff. Rand is purely human. A very powerful human, but human. Ok, maybe two humans. But at the end of book 9 he undoes the handiwork of a god with the aid of one other person. These two people did what a god thought was impossible. Thus, they are not level 5. There was a bit of artifact-level power involved, but it was still awesome. Note in early books Moiraine has an Angreal, which grants basically extra caster levels and casting progression. But still, she uses Misdirection, Earthquake, Wall of Fire and Heal in the one book. Not a level 5 sorcerer by any means.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-10, 07:48 PM
Worth mentioning:

Gandalf took on the Nine a few nights before. All of them. At once. He fled, a drew off 4 or 5 of them, leaving Aragorn to face a smaller amount.


Also, Gandalf wasn't sure he could defeat the Witch King because of the prophecy, not because he didn't think he was strong enough.

bugsysservant
2007-07-10, 08:17 PM
Sorry about the errors, but I haven't read LoTR in quite a while and am going from memory. Personally I think that Gandalf would be the most powerful member of the fellowship, and perhaps all of middle Earth (save Sauron), though we know very little of the Istari save Saruman, and the name of Radagast. Also, a few of the oldest Noldor or even Elrond are quite powerful, as is Beorn, though I am not going to speculate.

Matthew
2007-07-10, 08:58 PM
You might be better served by actually going and reading the Threads about this instead of (presumably accidently) misrepresenting what was said and why.