Eldritch Knight + Shield + Shield

[bardo]

Suppose you're an Eldritch Knight and you want to use a Shield (the item) and Shield (the spell) for that sweet can't-touch-me AC. The Shield spell is V,S so it requires a free hand. What can you do?

1. Take the Warcaster feat.

Smells like a feat tax.

Shield + Shield are both important class features, not being able to combine them until level 4 stinks (v-human aside).

Warcaster under-performs on an EK. Advantage on CON saves to keep concentration is a bit of an overkill on a class that's already proficient in CON saves, but can't complain about concentration being solid as a rock for the few EK spells that require it. Being able to cast a spell as an OA is mostly useless on EKs who generally have fewer spell slots and a lesser casting ability.

Feats are supposed to be optional.

2. Drop your weapon.

It looks stupid.

Costs you both a reaction to cast, and a bonus action to get your bonded weapon back at the start of your next turn. Maybe you have something better to do with your bonus action. At least you won't be missing out on OAs as you just now spent your reaction to cast Shield.

It looks really stupid.

3. ??? help me out, is there anything I'm missing that would enable the Shield + Shield combo?

Bardo.

[Jamesps]

Taking Tavern Brawler as a feat is another option. Unlike warcaster it includes a strength bump, which if you're at 17 from a racial bump it won't cause you to slow down your progression. As an additional upside you've got a free grapple every round if you choose.

Downsides are that you still won't have access to it until level 4 (but really, is this so bad? You can't cast shield until level 3, so it's a single level delay), and you have to use your shield as a d4 damage weapon, costing you about 2 damage per attack. I personally would say that the free grapple is worth this cost because you can periodically drag your opponents through hazards or drop them off cliffs, which should balance out the damage cost over the long run.

[PeteNutButter]

Taking Tavern Brawler as a feat is another option. Unlike warcaster it includes a strength bump, which if you're at 17 from a racial bump it won't cause you to slow down your progression. As an additional upside you've got a free grapple every round if you choose.

Downsides are that you still won't have access to it until level 4 (but really, is this so bad? You can't cast shield until level 3, so it's a single level delay), and you have to use your shield as a d4 damage weapon, costing you about 2 damage per attack. I personally would say that the free grapple is worth this cost because you can periodically drag your opponents through hazards or drop them off cliffs, which should balance out the damage cost over the long run.

Going off the tavern brawler you could probably just attack with your shield as an improvised weapon, with or without the feat, as most DMs will give it 1d4 damage. It's debatable whether you get proficiency to attack rolls without the feat, but you do have proficiency shields... but for blocking. It is a bit gamey, but for those DMs historically inclined, they shouldn't have trouble recognizing that shields were also quite typically bashed with in combat. It's ultimately DM dependent.

Best thing is to pick up Warcaster at level 4. The advantage on concentration saves make it much more than a feat tax.

[MaxWilson]

2. Drop your weapon.

It looks stupid.

Costs you both a reaction to cast, and a bonus action to get your bonded weapon back at the start of your next turn. Maybe you have something better to do with your bonus action. At least you won't be missing out on OAs as you just now spent your reaction to cast Shield.

You can also just sheathe your weapon. Same effect, but it doesn't look stupid.

Also, under most circumstances, you don't have to use your bonus action to get your weapon back. You can just pick it up/unsheathe it with your free object interaction, which lets you interact with one object on your turn, that object being your weapon. You'd only strictly need to use your bonus action if someone else had tried to grab your weapon and run off with it. (The results would be hilarious actually.)

But then, you might choose to summon your weapon anyway instead of unsheathing it, just because it looks cooler. As you say, it depends on whether you have a better use for your bonus action that turn (Expeditious Retreat? Shield Master?).


Taking Tavern Brawler as a feat is another option. Unlike warcaster it includes a strength bump, which if you're at 17 from a racial bump it won't cause you to slow down your progression. As an additional upside you've got a free grapple every round if you choose.

Downsides are that you still won't have access to it until level 4 (but really, is this so bad? You can't cast shield until level 3, so it's a single level delay), and you have to use your shield as a d4 damage weapon, costing you about 2 damage per attack. I personally would say that the free grapple is worth this cost because you can periodically drag your opponents through hazards or drop them off cliffs, which should balance out the damage cost over the long run.

The other cool thing about Tavern Brawler for an EK is that it lets you really leverage that grapple + prone combo while still getting proficiency on your shield bash. A grappled opponent can't get up from a prone position until he breaks the grapple. An EK shield bashing an opponent for d4+STR on every attack, at advantage, vs. an opponent who has to attack AC 21 at disadvantage (so basically no crits), and then every time he does hit the target just jumps up to AC 26 (assuming Tavern Brawler + Warcaster)... that's an exercise in frustration. I've done this exact combo sans Tavern Brawler with a Paladorc--it's still pretty fun and effective, but without proficiency bonus to your shield bash you wind up relying on other PCs to do most of the damage, making it primarily a control move with damage strictly secondary.

Here's the thing though about Shield: it still costs you something. You're not really untouchable by the enemy; you're just burning spell points instead of HP. There are times when it makes sense to just take the hit instead of casting Shield. Or at least, it makes tactical sense. I usually Shield anyway because getting stabbed or disemboweled hurts, i.e. because of roleplaying considerations.

[Specter]

Hey, having an AC higher than titans had to come at a price.

War Caster is the best feat for shield EKs, because with turning you into WW2 tank with Shield and Absorb Elements, it lets you cast a spell as an op. attack. It's far from bad, since Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade make your op. attacks the baddest of them all. High AC won't matter too much if you can't tank, and that will make them think twice before escaping your reach.

All of that, along with never failing a concentration check.

[tieren]

IMO if you want to sword and board and cast you should be taking warcaster. As an EK you are a warrior and a caster, if you S+B you are on the front lines getting hit a lot and advantage to a save you are already proficient in is still helpful. Don't use slot spells for the OA, get a single target cantrip if you like, shocking grasp for example to eat the enemy's reaction too.

So assuming you aren't a Vuman, and are taking warcaster at 4, you only need to worry about getting through level 3, where you have exactly 2 spell slots. If you are going to use them both for shield, just drop your weapon, at least you have a cool mechanic to get it back.

[Joe the Rat]

Downside of dropping your weapon is not having a weapon in hand for OAs. But you just used your reaction to cast shield, so you can't make OAs until your next turn anyway. (Unless you have tunnel fighting, but that's a whole other block of issues).

Other flavor for dropping weapons:
- throw it in the air and catch it on your next turn
- jam it into the ground (handle up) as part of your Somatic.
- throw it at the attack as part of your Somatic
So long as it is not in your direct control, and you have an empty hand at the end of casting, it's descriptive.

The key is that you are doing a free drop - putting away your weapon, etc, requires an object interaction.

[bardo]

You can also just sheathe your weapon. Same effect, but it doesn't look stupid.

Sheathe a weapon as part of casting the Shield spell during a reaction? I'm not so sure this is allowed, but have no idea where to check. Good point about having the freebie option of just bending over and picking up a dropped weapon.

Bardo.

[Laserlight]

Shield + Shield are both important class features, not being able to combine them until level 4 stinks (v-human aside)

"Stinks"? Everyone else has to get along with AC16-19 and you're upset that you don't get AC23+ from the get go? You have to wait a few sessions until you hit L4-- oh, horrors, you're totally ineffective !

[Klorox]

Suppose you're an Eldritch Knight and you want to use a Shield (the item) and Shield (the spell) for that sweet can't-touch-me AC. The Shield spell is V,S so it requires a free hand. What can you do?

1. Take the Warcaster feat.

Smells like a feat tax.

Shield + Shield are both important class features, not being able to combine them until level 4 stinks (v-human aside).

Warcaster under-performs on an EK. Advantage on CON saves to keep concentration is a bit of an overkill on a class that's already proficient in CON saves, but can't complain about concentration being solid as a rock for the few EK spells that require it. Being able to cast a spell as an OA is mostly useless on EKs who generally have fewer spell slots and a lesser casting ability.

Feats are supposed to be optional.

2. Drop your weapon.

It looks stupid.

Costs you both a reaction to cast, and a bonus action to get your bonded weapon back at the start of your next turn. Maybe you have something better to do with your bonus action. At least you won't be missing out on OAs as you just now spent your reaction to cast Shield.

It looks really stupid.

3. ??? help me out, is there anything I'm missing that would enable the Shield + Shield combo?

Bardo.
VHuman can't take warcarster at level 1.

Yes, it's a feat tax. It lasts level 3. At level 4, you take the feat.

[dejarnjc]

Sheathe a weapon as part of casting the Shield spell during a reaction? I'm not so sure this is allowed, but have no idea where to check.
Bardo.

I wouldn't allow it based off the description of reactions in the PHB.


"A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."

[Klorox]

When I ran into this issue, my 3rd level EK went without a shield for level 3. He used his battleaxe two handed for attacks, and when all his spells had been used, he took the physical shield off his back.

Inconvenient? Yes. But it's no big deal.

[Klorox]

I wouldn't allow it based off the description of reactions in the PHB.


"A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."

I agree.

"Oh, you're going to actually hit me with that attack? Hang on, I need to sheath my sword so I can cast a spell first!

[Fable Wright]

Warcaster under-performs on an EK. Advantage on CON saves to keep concentration is a bit of an overkill on a class that's already proficient in CON saves, but can't complain about concentration being solid as a rock for the few EK spells that require it. Being able to cast a spell as an OA is mostly useless on EKs who generally have fewer spell slots and a lesser casting ability.

So, Booming Blade is a cantrip. Warcaster lets you cast it on an Opportunity Attack. And the extra damage is very nice when you're forcing your opponent into it. Warcaster is just good on an Eldritch Knight, for all three modes. Plus, EK gets the most feats of anyone. Why complain?

[MeeposFire]

Yea getting extra damage on an opportunity attack is pretty sweet. Combine with tunnel fighter (I think) for the extra uses per round. Enemies will repsect your opportunity attacks more or you get a fat damage bonus and with booming blade that can be a REALLY fat damage bonus since if they keep moving they trigger the bonus damage as well.

[Foxhound438]

minotaur (UA)

barring that, get a lizardfolk spiked shield. gives you +2 ac, allows you to make an attack with a free hand... only drawback is damage die size.

Oh, and don't forget to pick up a level of / magic initiate cleric for shield of faith, if you can spare the stats. Then you have shield + shield + shield, and you're your own personal phalanx.

[Citan]

Suppose you're an Eldritch Knight and you want to use a Shield (the item) and Shield (the spell) for that sweet can't-touch-me AC. The Shield spell is V,S so it requires a free hand. What can you do?

Smells like a feat tax.

What you said about overlapping Warcaster "advantage on concentration" over "constitution proficiency" is true. For a pure EK, you will usually begin to appreciate that when you get at least 2nd level spells (although 1st level spells like Fog Cloud can be great too). But any dip in a caster may bring you enough good 1st level concentration spells to really appreciate it. And later when you can get Blur/Haste/others you will be glad to be that resilient for concentration. ;)


VHuman can't take warcarster at level 1.

Yes, it's a feat tax. It lasts level 3. At level 4, you take the feat.
Hi, I'm sorry but you are wrong on both points.
First, it is not a tax feat. Especially at low levels, you could just bear with Shocking Grasp instead of attacking (you lose only a few points of damage but you get free disengage so it's not that bad a trade-off), so you can hang with your shield and still get a free hand to cast.

Second, you don't have any spell to cast as a variant human before you become Eldricht Knight, so level 3. So whatever the case, the "tax" would last only one level.
You would have to be a High Elf to fulfill the conditions of this supposed tax (fulfilling requirements for Warcaster, but having to wait for level 4).

Beyond that, I find baffling that people could whine about a "tax" feat just so they don't have to anticipate to cast Shield (because you could also sheathe your weapon when your turn ends if you think there is more chance to suffer dangerous attacks than get an opportunity attack), for one measly level, when Warcaster brings so much more to the table than just the "bar somatic components" aspect.

Tip of the day: Shield is an abjuration spell, so you can pick it up whenever you want as an EK.
So instead of complaining on how hard it is to use a defensive spell because of weapon+somatic interaction, DON'T pick Shield when you become an Eldricht Knight, instead pick Magic Missile. No complex management anymore, and since you only have 2 slots per day, you will easily find a use for Magic Missile even if it also has somatic components (example: opener in a fight while you close in, maybe with Action Surge if pertinent). \o/ When you reach your next level, grab Shield at the same time as Warcaster and you are done.

[Mandragola]

The reference to the feat tax is talking about needing to take a feat for the class to work. Needing to take the feat means that your ASI is spent, so you can't raise your strength at level 4 (or take another feat, or whatever) and your attacks fall behind.

The simple way around this is not to use a shield. Grab yourself a greatsword. If you're a vuman you can take GWM at level 1, or polearm mastery if you prefer. Free hand whenever you need it and lots of damage.

[Citan]

The reference to the feat tax is talking about needing to take a feat for the class to work. Needing to take the feat means that your ASI is spent, so you can't raise your strength at level 4 (or take another feat, or whatever) and your attacks fall behind.

The simple way around this is not to use a shield. Grab yourself a greatsword. If you're a vuman you can take GWM at level 1, or polearm mastery if you prefer. Free hand whenever you need it and lots of damage.
I know what a tax feat is. An EK has few enough spell slots to work around this ever so slight limitation about somatic components.
So Warcaster is not mandatory, although it is indeed a great choice.

[Specter]

A feat tax is something necessary to make a class work, not a particular strategy. Even if you go sword and board, you could avoid casting Shield or sheathe your weapon at the end of your turn or cast it in your own turn or whatever. To cast it without any of those viable other strategies, you need a feat. So no feat tax at all.

[Klorox]

A feat tax is something necessary to make a class work, not a particular strategy. Even if you go sword and board, you could avoid casting Shield or sheathe your weapon at the end of your turn or cast it in your own turn or whatever. To cast it without any of those viable other strategies, you need a feat. So no feat tax at all.

To go sword and board, it's a feat tax.

Sheathing away a weapon every round is stupid. I don't care if it's RAW or not. Imagine fighting with a long sword and taking it out/put it away every 6 seconds. Please.

Casting shield on your own turn is even dumber. It's meant to be a reaction; you only cast it when you need to.

If you want to use a weapon and shield, and be able to cast spells, you need warcaster.

[bardo]

Thanks for the replies!

I did overlook the Warcaster + Booming Blade combination. It's a good one. It wouldn't work for me because it's a PHB-only table, but it's good to be aware of it.

Also overlooked Warcaster's requisite of being able to cast at least one spell. So no Warcaster for a level 1 v-human fighter.

Overlooked how picking up a dropped weapon is a freebie.

Since Warcaster + Chill Touch isn't attractive to me, I'll fluff dropping the weapon "go go bonded-weapon-shield", and recover it next turn either by stomping my foot on the blade and catching it in the air, or by recalling it when I have nothing better to do with the bonus action.

Thanks again!

Bardo.

[Pex]

A "feat tax" is from 3E where you take a lackluster feat, meaning it does practically diddly squat, because it's a prerequisite for the cool feat of awesomeness you really want. It can also be that the lackluster feat is a prerequisite to get into the prestige class of awesomeness you want. The Dodge feat is the classic example. There are no feat taxes in 5E. A feat that lets you do something awesome you couldn't otherwise do is the whole point feature of having the feat, not some punishing cost for the audacity of doing the cool thing.

Personally I agree it's annoying and frustrating that 5E forces you to choose between an ASI and a feat, but that's an issue with 5E design as a whole not the fault of the feat existing to be dismissed as a tax. Others disagree and find the choice of ASI or a feat to be a good thing of having the fun in making the choice and avoid power creep to a level they are not comfortable with. Despite my personal dislike of the forced choice, and I accept it's just a matter of personal preference and not a wrongness of 5E like I attribute to the lack of defined Skills DCs as infamously brought up in earlier threads [for frame of reference not a segue to a discussion], I do agree the feats are juicy enough to be a fair trade of not taking the ASI so I can get over it.

[Specter]

A "feat tax" is from 3E where you take a lackluster feat, meaning it does practically diddly squat, because it's a prerequisite for the cool feat of awesomeness you really want. It can also be that the lackluster feat is a prerequisite to get into the prestige class of awesomeness you want. The Dodge feat is the classic example. There are no feat taxes in 5E. A feat that lets you do something awesome you couldn't otherwise do is the whole point feature of having the feat, not some punishing cost for the audacity of doing the cool thing.

Personally I agree it's annoying and frustrating that 5E forces you to choose between an ASI and a feat, but that's an issue with 5E design as a whole not the fault of the feat existing to be dismissed as a tax. Others disagree and find the choice of ASI or a feat to be a good thing of having the fun in making the choice and avoid power creep to a level they are not comfortable with. Despite my personal dislike of the forced choice, and I accept it's just a matter of personal preference and not a wrongness of 5E like I attribute to the lack of defined Skills DCs as infamously brought up in earlier threads [for frame of reference not a segue to a discussion], I do agree the feats are juicy enough to be a fair trade of not taking the ASI so I can get over it.

Agreed. Even taking a garbage feat like Savage Attacker is better than Dodge from the old times.

[djreynolds]

For a long time, I had a mountain dwarf abjurer, and also a hill dwarf life cleric. I went weaponless.

Why? Sacred flame can be used in melee. And shocking grasp can be used in melee.

I'm not sure of your intelligence score, but for early level play a 14 (+2) is just fine for now and you can use shocking grasp in melee.

But just take war caster, coupled with con save proficiency you will keep up most concentration spell like blur.

AoO with spells, like shocking grasp or hold person, and use a shield and cast

Before you know it you will be at level 4, or 6 and grab war caster then

[Tanarii]

I'm not sure of your intelligence score, but for early level play a 14 (+2) is just fine for now and you can use shocking grasp in melee.So can Poison Spray and Acid Splash. Although they are pure damage focus, not utility like Shocking Grasp, they have the advantage of synergizing with the level 10 EK ability to undercut saving throws. Which sets up a nice little rotation in a round of physical attack (undercut next saving throw) followed by poison spray/acid splash (save at disadvantage), using War Magic.

Obviously that's for later on, but since you only get three cantrips with a single class EK it's worth planning ahead, especially if SCAG cantrips aren't available.

One thing to be aware of is cover still applies to melee attacks and Dex save spells. IMX it's not that common at adjacent range, but it's still worth noting.

[EvilAnagram]

Doesn't Warcaster, in addition to letting you shield and Shield, allow you to use Booming Blade as an opportunity attack? That seems quite nice, especially since the other benefit combines with your proficiency to keep you forever concentrated.

I'm sorry not everything in the game is not immediately accessible to every character no matter the build?

[Jjj111]

Doesn't Warcaster, in addition to letting you shield and Shield, allow you to use Booming Blade as an opportunity attack? That seems quite nice, especially since the other benefit combines with your proficiency to keep you forever concentrated.

I'm sorry not everything in the game is not immediately accessible to every character no matter the build?

Yeah I think OP is confused if he thinks warcaster is a feat tax. And I see a lot of people wanting to min max get upset when they don't start out as an all star at level 1.

[Pex]

Yeah I think OP is confused if he thinks warcaster is a feat tax. And I see a lot of people wanting to min max get upset when they don't start out as an all star at level 1.

Warlocks hate level 1 so much! :smallsmile:

[djreynolds]

Agreed. Even taking a garbage feat like Savage Attacker is better than Dodge from the old times.

Do not tell anyone, but I've secretly been using savage attacker.... its not bad. If you wanted to throw me a +1 in strength.. okay.

But rerolling damage and taking the score you want is nice, better than nothing

[RSP]

To clarify, picking up a dropped weapon isn't a "freebie;" it uses your item interaction, same as drawing/sheathing does.

Also, as you only get 1 item interaction a turn, the "sheathe your weapon at the end of your turn, draw it at the beginning of your next" cannot be maintained as that second round you already drew your weapon so cannot also sheathe it that round. Using this, Shield would only be available every other round. Dropping the weapon, I believe, is a 'freebie' though.

[djreynolds]

Just take war caster, at 4th or 6th level. Or for now lose the shield. Versatile weapons have uses it that you can use them one or two-handed.

[Maxilian]

Suppose you're an Eldritch Knight and you want to use a Shield (the item) and Shield (the spell) for that sweet can't-touch-me AC. The Shield spell is V,S so it requires a free hand. What can you do?

1. Take the Warcaster feat.

Smells like a feat tax.

Shield + Shield are both important class features, not being able to combine them until level 4 stinks (v-human aside).

Warcaster under-performs on an EK. Advantage on CON saves to keep concentration is a bit of an overkill on a class that's already proficient in CON saves, but can't complain about concentration being solid as a rock for the few EK spells that require it. Being able to cast a spell as an OA is mostly useless on EKs who generally have fewer spell slots and a lesser casting ability.

Feats are supposed to be optional.

2. Drop your weapon.

It looks stupid.

Costs you both a reaction to cast, and a bonus action to get your bonded weapon back at the start of your next turn. Maybe you have something better to do with your bonus action. At least you won't be missing out on OAs as you just now spent your reaction to cast Shield.

It looks really stupid.

3. ??? help me out, is there anything I'm missing that would enable the Shield + Shield combo?

Bardo.

Why not simply use your free action to interact with the sword you dropped and pick it back up (that way you're not expending your Bonus Action to resummon your weapon.

Note: You could go with the theme of the Fighters that have their weapon tied with them so they can never lose it and so they can easily maniobrate with them