Fix for the +2/+2 feats?

[Cheech]

One of my players (human investigator, starting level 4) has picked persuasive, magical aptitude and investigator as his starting feats. I've already told him I don't think they're the best choices, but I can see why he'd pick them, as he does indeed want to play a persuasive investigator with magical aptitude.

I'm minded to let him take 2 in 1 feat slot, so he's not getting quite so bad value, but I was wondering whether anyone's come up with any more fun/interesting fixes for those feats that I could use instead?

[Calthropstu]

This is one of the things Paizo fixed with Pathfinder.

Once you have 10 ranks in the skill, the bonus doubles to +4

[Rusvul]

You could also have the feats grant both of the associated skills as class skills. This might have unforeseen consequences in a high-optimization game, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're running.

[Flickerdart]

As a rule, good feats a) scale, and b) let you do something new.

The simplest fix is to make those feats grant their skills as class skills. That might seem powerful (oh no, now anyone can have UMD!) but remember that feats are precious, and most builds are already feat-starved.

You can also grant free/cheap skill tricks that use the skills. For example, taking Investigator might grant the Insightful Improvisation skill trick (since it requires 5 ranks in Gather Information). But not all skills have skill tricks.

You could also just make the bonus scale. Pathfinder pretended to fix it, but +4 is still garbage for the price you pay. +level might be reasonable (but make it a Competence bonus so it doesn't stack with those +30 items).

One other thing you could do is reduce the DCs for Epic Skill Checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm) for people with the feats. This does not make everyday checks too easy, but would actually make skills worth using.

[Ruslan]

One of my players (human investigator, starting level 4) has picked persuasive, magical aptitude and investigator as his starting feats. I've already told him I don't think they're the best choices, but I can see why he'd pick them, as he does indeed want to play a persuasive investigator with magical aptitude. I sincerely hope he has no interest in playing a Tough character who's Focused on his Weapon technique.

[Zancloufer]

At the very least they should scale. I have a feat fix file lying around and IIRC those +skill feats gain an additional +1 for ever ~5 ranks you have in the skill. +2 to two skills isn't much, but +7 to two skills is a fair bit better.

Also second the making it a class skill option. Would make the feats quite worthwhile to take for certain PrC pre-reqs as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

Players chooses one of the two skills, it is now a class skill and they can always take 10 on it.

Or, if you want slightly higher power. Makes both skills class skills, player chooses one that they can now take 10 on (Skill Mastery special ability of the Rogue).

[Malimar]

I just had an idea that might go too far and make these feats way too powerful. What do we think of making it +2/+2 ranks, which can go above the usual rank limit? Would make everybody clamor for these feats as early entry tools, probably, right?

[Absol197]

I don't play d20 much anymore, but I did implement a major feat re-haul, and these feats were a major target. Here's what I did with the +2/+2 feats and Skill Focus (Pathfinder base):

+2/+2 Feats:

1) Bonus increases by +2 for every 10 ranks in the skill;
2) Affected skills become class skills;
3) A certain number of times per day, may reroll checks made with the affected skills*.

Skill Focus:

1) Bonus increases by +3 for every 10 ranks in the skill;
2) Chosen skill becomeset a class skill;
3) A certain number of times per day, may roll checks made with the chosen skill twice and take the higher result;
4) A natural 1 with the chosen skill counts as a 1, not a -10 (this is a standing house rule).

* This chart is used for many feats' secondary effects:
Level - Times per Day
1st to 4th - 1
5th to 8th - 2
9th to 12th - 3
13th to 16th - 4
17th to 20th - 5

[Emperor Tippy]

I just had an idea that might go too far and make these feats way too powerful. What do we think of making it +2/+2 ranks, which can go above the usual rank limit? Would make everybody clamor for these feats as early entry tools, probably, right?

It's horrid game design. It ups the value (and objective power) of the feats for anyone who is optimizing while doing nothing for those who aren't. Otherwise generally known as everyone inclined to take these feats in the first place.

[Troacctid]

I just had an idea that might go too far and make these feats way too powerful. What do we think of making it +2/+2 ranks, which can go above the usual rank limit? Would make everybody clamor for these feats as early entry tools, probably, right?
Sure, people would use them for that, but that doesn't seem like the intent of the feats. They're supposed to make you better at the associated skills, not break level gates. I think adding the skills as class skills is a better fix.

Edit: Swordsage'd by Tippy.

[Malimar]

It's horrid game design. It ups the value (and objective power) of the feats for anyone who is optimizing while doing nothing for those who aren't. Otherwise generally known as everyone inclined to take these feats in the first place.
Sure, people would use them for that, but that doesn't seem like the intent of the feats. They're supposed to make you better at the associated skills, not break level gates. I think adding the skills as class skills is a better fix.

Yes, good points.

[Mordaedil]

I've looked at these feats before and they are definately what some refer to as "trap feats", ie. feats that people with no system mastery might pick, because some people really like people to make suboptimal characters. Paizo's solution just kind of delays the problem I have with them, ultimately they are feats that just increase your skills, and don't give you anything exciting to do, like most other feats do.

I usually argue for either just dropping them as being acceptable feats in my game or do something even more broken; giving them abilities. Haven't really had many games where it has come up though, but I'm sure people can already think of a few ways.

I like Paizo's touch on fixing toughness, and things like stealthy seems like an apt place to put the hide in plain sight ability (albeit now with a requirement in hide and move silently)

[Extra Anchovies]

Perhaps the +2/+2 feats could be improved by bundling them in with Signature Skill (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/skillUnlocks.html) for one or both of the skills?

Edit: Having the feats count as Skill Focus in both skills for prerequisite purposes would also give them a bit of a boost.

[Blackhawk748]

I use the Pathfinder versions and on top of the slightly scaling bonus, they grant a 1/day reroll on each of those skills which increases to a 2/day at level 5 3/day at lvl 10, 4/day at lvl 15, and 5/day at 20.