PF Fun/Effective Tristalt builds

[Krazzman]

We are running through the adventure paths (currently Hells Vengeance ) with Tristalt characters. I would like to know what you would build for such a game.

Builds we used or came up with so far that we like/think might be powerful enough :

Investigator//Cleric of Zon-Kuthon//Tyrant Antipaladin
It has skills and extracts, full casting of cleric, cha on saves, all good saves, full BAB and heavy armor profiency.
She mainly uses cleric casting and force channel/channel smite with power attack.

I imagine that the good version (Paladin//Cleric//Investigator(maybe with an archetype that trades out poison use)) would be similar effective, even if channel smite would be not as effective.

Another possibility of such a solo able build would be Oracle (lore/nature)//Paladin//bard (or something that gives skills ).

But since these are pretty much the same I would like to know your thoughts/views/builds/concepts about it.

Our build rules:

Custom race or race advanced to 30 racial points.
Fast healing racial ability only costs 4 instead of 6.
Stats 18 18 16 16 14 14
2 traits + 1 campaign trait
HD always full
Spell points instead of slots.
Weapon finesse is an automatic ability all light weapons and finesseable weapons have.
TWF changed to basically always strike with offhand if you strike with main hand. Still only .5 str bonus on off hand.
Two weapon rend also let's off hand deal full str dmg.
Your linguistic bonus is the number of languages you can speak.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not a PF expert, but how about tactician//warder//[somethingwithpassives]?

Note that the build assumes you have a party (obviously), but they can be summons, pets, eidolons and whatnot. I'm not sure how strong the PF equivalent of an astral construct-specialist is, but it may be a nice one for the third slot.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, if you expect to need to fill all party roles (it doesn't sound like you do), I'd start with:
Spirit Guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/spirit-guide) (mostly for the Arcane Enlightenment hex of the Lore Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/lore) to get arbitrary Sor/Wiz sells on your list, and switch those day-to-day) Lunar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lunar-mystery) (Primal Companion, Form of the Beast, Moonlit Script, in that order) Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) (Forsaken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses#TOC-Forsaken-3PP-) if 3pp OK, Haunted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses#TOC-Haunted) otherwise) // Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) // Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin).

Go with the Divine Bond on the Paladin be small, and get a Riding Dog mount. The animal companion from Primal Companion on the Lunar mystery should be a Tiger (Large cat entry), and of course, a summoner gets a nice minion as well. Make sure to take Noble Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion) (War).

Charisma-based casting (Spell list should focus on Buffs, debuffs, day-after pills, and utilities), heavy armor proficiency, three built-in combat-capable minions, massive amounts of healing, Charisma to saves, Charisma to initiative d10 HD, two good saves (+Cha), self-resurrection in a pinch, 4+Int skill points/level. In combat, you buff your pets, which murder everything. You deal with skill challenges via spells... or just having enough Int to be able to deal with skill challenges (you've got the RP to boost it considerably, and you'll want it for Arcane Enlightenment anyway).

With a 30 RP race, definitely going with the fast healing! Make sure to pick up bonus skill points and HP.

Edit: For a little more flavor but a little less fun, go with the Feral curse (or stick with Forsaken and just use your monstrous race to make yourself wolf-like), have your primal companion be a wolf rather than a tiger, and make sure to flavor your eidolon as a wolf-like creature. Play male. Then you can have some background music (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTA_7RwPUPA).


If there's other people at the table waiting for me to finish my turn, what I'd pick depends on what party role I was planning to fill.

[Krazzman]

I'm not a PF expert, but how about tactician//warder//[somethingwithpassives]?

Note that the build assumes you have a party (obviously), but they can be summons, pets, eidolons and whatnot. I'm not sure how strong the PF equivalent of an astral construct-specialist is, but it may be a nice one for the third slot.

Do you mean the Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/tactician) or am I missing something?
Doubling up on melee seems to be rather redundant... and Warder is sadly not available for multiple reasons: not having the books, my wife not liking the stuff (she was sorta ok-ish with ToB) and is wary of it. I would love to get those 2 books... but last time I checked they couldn't ship to our address for some reason...
Astral Construct was from Psionics, right? Tried playing a Psion or Soulknife in 3.5 once (each).


Well, if you expect to need to fill all party roles (it doesn't sound like you do), I'd start with:
Spirit Guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/spirit-guide) (mostly for the Arcane Enlightenment hex of the Lore Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/lore) to get arbitrary Sor/Wiz sells on your list, and switch those day-to-day) Lunar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lunar-mystery) (Primal Companion, Form of the Beast, Moonlit Script, in that order) Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) (Forsaken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses#TOC-Forsaken-3PP-) if 3pp OK, Haunted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses#TOC-Haunted) otherwise) // Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) // Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin).

Go with the Divine Bond on the Paladin be small, and get a Riding Dog mount. The animal companion from Primal Companion on the Lunar mystery should be a Tiger (Large cat entry), and of course, a summoner gets a nice minion as well. Make sure to take Noble Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion) (War).

Charisma-based casting (Spell list should focus on Buffs, debuffs, day-after pills, and utilities), heavy armor proficiency, three built-in combat-capable minions, massive amounts of healing, Charisma to saves, Charisma to initiative d10 HD, two good saves (+Cha), self-resurrection in a pinch, 4+Int skill points/level. In combat, you buff your pets, which murder everything. You deal with skill challenges via spells... or just having enough Int to be able to deal with skill challenges (you've got the RP to boost it considerably, and you'll want it for Arcane Enlightenment anyway).

With a 30 RP race, definitely going with the fast healing! Make sure to pick up bonus skill points and HP.

Edit: For a little more flavor but a little less fun, go with the Feral curse (or stick with Forsaken and just use your monstrous race to make yourself wolf-like), have your primal companion be a wolf rather than a tiger, and make sure to flavor your eidolon as a wolf-like creature. Play male. Then you can have some background music (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTA_7RwPUPA).


If there's other people at the table waiting for me to finish my turn, what I'd pick depends on what party role I was planning to fill.

The 4 skillpoints per level are a setback (but would be 6 anyway, adding the best and lowest of the three classes) but overall that build just seems awesome... we toyed with Summoner in the initial build for my wifes current char (which was initially a Hunter//Summoner//Antipaladin).

Thank you for bringing the Spirit-Guide Archetype and the Lunar Mystery to my attention. I assume there would be ways to transfer the wounds from my "beasts" to myself, right?
You seem to have mixed up the order of the revelations: Form of the Beast can only be taken at level 7+.

[Psyren]

I'd probably do Amnesiac Psychic // Empiricist Investigator // Kensai Magus to become Int-SAD. AC, Initiative, will, attack, damage etc.

[khadgar567]

well my tristalt build probably sphere druid/planar shepherd// sphere syntesist summoner // something initiating
choosing dream plane for sweet 10 turns on every enemy turn using eidolon to get immune to every damage and initiating to trip fest using maneuvers but probably becomes mad

[dascarletm]

Hrmmm....

uMonk//Druid//Mystic

Druid is used for long term buffs/shifting uMonk is used for passives and interesting ki powers, and Mystic is your active class. Make sure you get maneuvers from schools that work in animal form.

[Triskavanski]

A weird one here..


Fighter | Mind Blade Magus | Unchained Rogue

Fighter takes the Monk weapon group for his one and only weapon group, but specializes in unarmed strike
Mindblade magus can create any weapon in the monk group, and the monk group
Pick up Astetic style from the weapon master's handbook. Now all monk weapons are equal to your fist.

Rogue gives you a Ki Pool, or at least could give you one, (There is an unchained talent that improves your ki pool, but no ki pool in Unchained rogue's normal list of talents. I suspect this might get errattaed to give a rogue a ki pool.)

So there you have it. You can switch out weapons whenever you're looking for a weapon with a different ability, like reach, defending, double, etc.



Fighter | Vigilante | Unchained Rogue
One paaaaunch!

This one is a bit complex. It requires you to go human, and take racial heritage for ogre.
You also want to take Combat reflexes

Take outslung style so you can have lunge without penalties
Around level 6 you take the vigilante ability where you get Vital strike, and apply vital strike to any attack of opportunity Then follow up with Savage Critical.

Now every time you get vital strike in, you get your sneak attack in. Which means attacks of opportunity give you this. As do critical hits. And with the outslung style, you've got a good range too. Granted, this doesn't need to be just the outslung style, There is an exotic weapon that gives a +2 to hit with attacks of opportunity and is a two handed weapon, the flying guillotine.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Do you mean the Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/tactician) or am I missing something?
Doubling up on melee seems to be rather redundant... and Warder is sadly not available for multiple reasons: not having the books, my wife not liking the stuff (she was sorta ok-ish with ToB) and is wary of it. I would love to get those 2 books... but last time I checked they couldn't ship to our address for some reason...
Astral Construct was from Psionics, right? Tried playing a Psion or Soulknife in 3.5 once (each).
No, I mean the DSP psionic class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/tactician), which is more similar to the 3.5 War Weaver.

Yes, astral construct is the psionic equivalent of summon monster. The PF version (by DSP) is very close to the 3.5 version (just looked it up). I don't know whether there is, say, a Summoner equivalent for psionics, allowing you to create your own party (both warder and tactician are team players), but you can always just have live teammates :smalltongue:.

[Triskavanski]

Here is another interesting one, according to Cave in Hazard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/environmental-hazards/cave-in-or-collapse-cr-8) a person can dig at a rate of 5x their heavy load vs weight of the dirt/rock. If you have a tool however, like a pickaxe, you can dig 10x your load.


So you go PackMule Fighter | Alchemist | Synthesis Summoner

The only point for the summoner is to get large quadreped really. Could also go Centaur or something. Ramp up your carrying capacity as much as possible, till your heavy load is unbelievably high, and you could mundanely move mountains.

[Krazzman]

I'd probably do Amnesiac Psychic // Empiricist Investigator // Kensai Magus to become Int-SAD. AC, Initiative, will, attack, damage etc.

I don't understand the Psychic but Kensai Magus and Empiricist Investigator seem like a nice fit... sadly the Int-AC is level dependant which would make the early levels a bit more harsh but the end result seems highly pleasing.


Hrmmm....

uMonk//Druid//Mystic

Druid is used for long term buffs/shifting uMonk is used for passives and interesting ki powers, and Mystic is your active class. Make sure you get maneuvers from schools that work in animal form.

I looked up the Mystic. I now want PoW and PoW:E more than ever...


A weird one here..


Fighter | Mind Blade Magus | Unchained Rogue

Fighter takes the Monk weapon group for his one and only weapon group, but specializes in unarmed strike
Mindblade magus can create any weapon in the monk group, and the monk group
Pick up Astetic style from the weapon master's handbook. Now all monk weapons are equal to your fist.

Rogue gives you a Ki Pool, or at least could give you one, (There is an unchained talent that improves your ki pool, but no ki pool in Unchained rogue's normal list of talents. I suspect this might get errattaed to give a rogue a ki pool.)

So there you have it. You can switch out weapons whenever you're looking for a weapon with a different ability, like reach, defending, double, etc.


This one certainly seems odd, but I love the flavour of it. Looks like my early visions for the Soulknife in 3.5.



Fighter | Vigilante | Unchained Rogue
One paaaaunch!

This one is a bit complex. It requires you to go human, and take racial heritage for ogre.
You also want to take Combat reflexes

Take outslung style so you can have lunge without penalties
Around level 6 you take the vigilante ability where you get Vital strike, and apply vital strike to any attack of opportunity Then follow up with Savage Critical.

Now every time you get vital strike in, you get your sneak attack in. Which means attacks of opportunity give you this. As do critical hits. And with the outslung style, you've got a good range too. Granted, this doesn't need to be just the outslung style, There is an exotic weapon that gives a +2 to hit with attacks of opportunity and is a two handed weapon, the flying guillotine.

...I don't need to be bald, right?


No, I mean the DSP psionic class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/tactician), which is more similar to the 3.5 War Weaver.

Yes, astral construct is the psionic equivalent of summon monster. The PF version (by DSP) is very close to the 3.5 version (just looked it up). I don't know whether there is, say, a Summoner equivalent for psionics, allowing you to create your own party (both warder and tactician are team players), but you can always just have live teammates :smalltongue:.

Looked it up... makes more sense now. Haven't tried my hands on a minionmancer so far... advised my wife to play one (Druid) in one campaign we played in together though. I prefer being the BSF (not always stupid) but might try something else in one of the solo campaigns.

One "fun" idea I had was going Gunslinger//Inquisitor(or Cleric)//Monk OR Zen Archer Monk//Cleric or Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer//Fighter or Ranger. In both cases making a deadly ranged attacker with either guns and casting or archery and casting.

Am I right in my assumption that Barbarian or Unchained Barbarian are "bad" classes for Tristalt?

[Psyren]

I don't understand the Psychic but Kensai Magus and Empiricist Investigator seem like a nice fit... sadly the Int-AC is level dependant which would make the early levels a bit more harsh but the end result seems highly pleasing.

Psychic is there as a 9th-level caster who can wear armor/use shields and still cast. I assumed that for a tristalt build, full casting would be worth going for.



Am I right in my assumption that Barbarian or Unchained Barbarian are "bad" classes for Tristalt?

Depends on why you assume that. Generally Barbarian is difficult to play well with others because it's main draw (rage) interferes with those of other classes (spells and SLAs.) But it mostly depends on what you combine it with and what you're using it to bring to the table.

[Krazzman]

Psychic is there as a 9th-level caster who can wear armor/use shields and still cast. I assumed that for a tristalt build, full casting would be worth going for.



Depends on why you assume that. Generally Barbarian is difficult to play well with others because it's main draw (rage) interferes with those of other classes (spells and SLAs.) But it mostly depends on what you combine it with and what you're using it to bring to the table.

No I meant the archetype. I don't really get the casting. You can't cast magus spells in armor though and as such can't use spell strike or do I miss something?

My reason is for one thing that rage bans you from using abilities from at least one side of your character. The other reason is, unless some awesome archetype fixes that, the rage and rage powers only give situational instead of constant boons.

[Erit]

Aegis|Soulknife|PsyWar, possibly; Magic Items? What Magic Items? Take the veilshaping customizations for further silliness.

Or, if you're feeling up for breaking trends alongside faces, Maenad Barbarian|Monk|[Extra]; Maenads have special permission to be Lawful Barbarians, and Outburst stacks with Rage giving you pretty decent beatstick potential. If PoW is allowed, pick up the Myrmidon Fighter for your part three, sink your maneuvers into Thrashing Dragon, Primal Fury and Broken Blade.


No I meant the archetype. I don't really get the casting. You can't cast magus spells in armor though and as such can't use spell strike or do I miss something?

Enlighten me, from whence does this notion spring forth? The entire point of Magus is armored casting; you get it as a class ability and everything.

[Jack_Simth]

The 4 skillpoints per level are a setback (but would be 6 anyway, adding the best and lowest of the three classes)
Ah, missed that. Still, that's why you get +Int from your race (you've got the racial points to burn), and your Int is your 3rd priority, so that's a base 16.
So if you assign your stats as... 18 Cha/Con, 16 Int/Str, 14 Wis/Dex (16/14/18/16/14/18)

Build your race as...
Let's see... 30 RP...
4 on fast healing 1 (really all you need, as fast healing is unlikely to affect combat much),
4 to get the Advanced stat array (+2 Physical, +4 Cha, -2 Wis) (18/16/20/16/12/22)
12 to take Ability Score Advanced Trait three times (Cha, Int, Con) (18/16/22/18/14/24)
4 to get Skilled (+1 Skill point/level)
2 to get "Static Bonus Feat" (something that'll help your build)
4 on... eh, whatever strikes your fancy.
...
then you're getting 6 (base with your house rules) + 4 (Int) +1 (Skilled) = 11 skill points/level. That's enough to cover the stuff you can't easily get from spells.
As you've got a d10 hit die, that same build gives you 16 hp/level. That's before magic items... and while the Scarlet and Blue Ioun Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-blue-sphere-ioun-stone) gives you a non-stacking Enhancement bonus to intelligence... I've yet to see a rule saying that you can't use the associated skill on the second if you've got two of them with different ones. And when you're crafting it, you get to pick the associated skill. Which reminds me: Take Craft Wondrous Item.

Edit: Oh yes, and favoured class bonuses. Can't forget those. If you can grab a campaign trait, Finding your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen) is crazy-good (campaign, +1 HP/skill point for each level in your favored class), as is Spark of Creation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic) (5% off crafting magic items, Magic trait), and Reactionary (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/reactionary) (+2 Initiative, Combat)/


but overall that build just seems awesome... we toyed with Summoner in the initial build for my wifes current char (which was initially a Hunter//Summoner//Antipaladin).

Thank you for bringing the Spirit-Guide Archetype and the Lunar Mystery to my attention. I assume there would be ways to transfer the wounds from my "beasts" to myself, right?
Sure. You can learn Shield Other as a spell to effectively double their HP at the cost of your own, you can bond with the Life spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/life) and take Life Link as your hex (although this is incompatible with bonding with the Lore spirit for Arcane Enlightenment... but check with your DM to see if you qualify for Extra Hex to permanently take hexes from various spirits), in the specific case of your Eidolon it's a class feature ... there's probably other methods.

You seem to have mixed up the order of the revelations: Form of the Beast can only be taken at level 7+.
Spirit Guide costs you the revelations at 3rd, 7th, and 15th. With that build, you get revelations at 1st, 11th, and 19th. Unless you spend feats on it, you're getting Form of the Beast at 11th taking them in that order... but you've got a nice changeable set of spells known, can swap out some special abilities on a daily basis if you need to.

[Krazzman]

Aegis|Soulknife|PsyWar, possibly; Magic Items? What Magic Items? Take the veilshaping customizations for further silliness.

Or, if you're feeling up for breaking trends alongside faces, Maenad Barbarian|Monk|[Extra]; Maenads have special permission to be Lawful Barbarians, and Outburst stacks with Rage giving you pretty decent beatstick potential. If PoW is allowed, pick up the Myrmidon Fighter for your part three, sink your maneuvers into Thrashing Dragon, Primal Fury and Broken Blade.



Enlighten me, from whence does this notion spring forth? The entire point of Magus is armored casting; you get it as a class ability and everything.

About the magus you would be right if it weren't a kensai who trades out profiency with armor and gets arcane spell failure chance.


Ah, missed that. Still, that's why you get +Int from your race (you've got the racial points to burn), and your Int is your 3rd priority, so that's a base 16.
So if you assign your stats as... 18 Cha/Con, 16 Int/Str, 14 Wis/Dex (16/14/18/16/14/18)

Build your race as...
Let's see... 30 RP...
4 on fast healing 1 (really all you need, as fast healing is unlikely to affect combat much),
4 to get the Advanced stat array (+2 Physical, +4 Cha, -2 Wis) (18/16/20/16/12/22)
12 to take Ability Score Advanced Trait three times (Cha, Int, Con) (18/16/22/18/14/24)
4 to get Skilled (+1 Skill point/level)
2 to get "Static Bonus Feat" (something that'll help your build)
4 on... eh, whatever strikes your fancy.
...
then you're getting 6 (base with your house rules) + 4 (Int) +1 (Skilled) = 11 skill points/level. That's enough to cover the stuff you can't easily get from spells.
As you've got a d10 hit die, that same build gives you 16 hp/level. That's before magic items... and while the Scarlet and Blue Ioun Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-blue-sphere-ioun-stone) gives you a non-stacking Enhancement bonus to intelligence... I've yet to see a rule saying that you can't use the associated skill on the second if you've got two of them with different ones. And when you're crafting it, you get to pick the associated skill. Which reminds me: Take Craft Wondrous Item.

Edit: Oh yes, and favoured class bonuses. Can't forget those. If you can grab a campaign trait, Finding your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen) is crazy-good (campaign, +1 HP/skill point for each level in your favored class), as is Spark of Creation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic) (5% off crafting magic items, Magic trait), and Reactionary (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/reactionary) (+2 Initiative, Combat)/


Sure. You can learn Shield Other as a spell to effectively double their HP at the cost of your own, you can bond with the Life spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/life) and take Life Link as your hex (although this is incompatible with bonding with the Lore spirit for Arcane Enlightenment... but check with your DM to see if you qualify for Extra Hex to permanently take hexes from various spirits), in the specific case of your Eidolon it's a class feature ... there's probably other methods.

Spirit Guide costs you the revelations at 3rd, 7th, and 15th. With that build, you get revelations at 1st, 11th, and 19th. Unless you spend feats on it, you're getting Form of the Beast at 11th taking them in that order... but you've got a nice changeable set of spells known, can swap out some special abilities on a daily basis if you need to.

Ah there is my mistake. Thought you get a revelation every odd level.
About the trait we have been running with finding your kin renamed as prodigy for the past 4 campaigns.