Large Party Composition

[Sir Broesbon]

We're playing at big table, and the DM said this is going to be a high-power campaign. (Rolls are 6d6, drop lowest two) We've got 8 players, but instead of going off and making individual characters, I thought I'd ask the boards for some wisdom for group. synergies. We're allowed all 3.0 and 3.5 books, as well as Pathfinder, so long as it's no too difficult to back-port.
One of our guys has his heart set on factotum, so I guess that'll be one of them.

I'll get rolls in when I can find 'em.

Oh, and Artificer is banned for this campaign. We made our DM sad last time.
Thoughts?

[Troacctid]

Honestly, my thoughts are that you should probably split the group in half. Eight players at one table is too many. D&D isn't designed to handle a party that big.

[Quertus]

1) so... max starting stat of 24 (before modifiers)?

2) how did you make the DM sad with artificer?

3) is anyone in your group dead set on anything in particular? does anyone other than the factotum clearly prefer a certain type of character?

4) starting level?

[Hiro Quester]

A group this large is going to have most of the usually roles filled. I like playing a buffer in larger parties. Make the others better at what they do.

A bard/Sublime Chord could be fun, for instance. Focus on buffing and BFC, and have the option of gishing it up once everyone is inspired and hasted and so on.

But yeah, the party is a bit large. I play in such a group, and we often split into sub-groups, in which some of us pursue one side-mission while the others pursue another. It's a lot more engaging in that way.

[Knitifine]

Use the opportunity to make everyone a kobolds or some other very underpowered race, win via action economy.

[Fizban]

Agreed with Troacctid: if you have 8 players on one side and sufficient foes on the other to challenge them, you're basically running a wargame. The only way to deal with multiple AoEs is to have the combatants spread far enough apart that you can't just annihilate them all in a single volley, which means large scale maneuvers and no such thing as dungeons.

[Thurbane]

Large groups benefit more from mass-buff classes like Bards and Marshals, as previously mentioned.

[Sir Broesbon]

1) so... max starting stat of 24 (before modifiers)?

2) how did you make the DM sad with artificer?

3) is anyone in your group dead set on anything in particular? does anyone other than the factotum clearly prefer a certain type of character?

4) starting level?

1) In theory.
2) We wrecked his carefully articulated plan that assumed everything was WBL. Some other shenanigans, too. Either way, It's a no go for the campaign.
3) This is one of the few times we're allowed everything ever, so if possible we'd like to diversify. Not a requirement though.
4) 5. going to 18. Though with this DM, it means 20. Always ends up like that.

[Sir Broesbon]

Agreed with Troacctid: if you have 8 players on one side and sufficient foes on the other to challenge them, you're basically running a wargame. The only way to deal with multiple AoEs is to have the combatants spread far enough apart that you can't just annihilate them all in a single volley, which means large scale maneuvers and no such thing as dungeons.

We've got two Co-DMs, and we like to split up. Too much. (And if we don't our DM does it for us).
Our table splits parties up after they go larger than 8. Normally, it'd be 6, but there was lots of hype for this campaign. Our DMs don't like to disappoint. If it REALLY comes to it, we'll kick out people who can't always make it. Saying that, what would be a good 6 player group?

[Inevitability]

Everyone is a wizard (no other base classes allowed) specializing in another school of magic, and at least half that person's prepared spells of each level (other than 0th) must be of that school.

Conjuration and transmutation should have it easy enough, and enchantment, illusion or necromancy won't have to worry either, but abjuration, divination and evocation are going to have it rough. Still, they're wizards: viable characters should be possible.

[Thaneus]

The question is really, what power level will you play as a group and how's the rules mastery for people.
I play in a group where all is allowed except Factotum (don't ask my why) Paragon Class and Incantatrix (well this one I understand) and he restricts us to non evil. Even DragMag (but only with approval). But we are not aiming to be all Tier 1-3; I play a Bard, another a scout, a Templar and one wizard who to be honest will likely not draw out its full potential. Except the Wizard we are mediocre optimized, because we want the challenge.
With a Factotum you have a skill-monkey buddy who can aid crating stuff, sneak around, be a face and so on... depending of his focus and optimizing skills.
When you know all will play 3-5 Tier don't be the only one with the heavy optimized Tier 1 or 2, you will crush the fun for all most the time.
If all use 1-3 Tier then be my guest and aim for godhood.

If you want to go buffer and have retrain enabled or a Psion buddy in team with (which he should have) psionic reformation make Warmage 1 Rainbowservant 10 Warweaver 5 Sacred Exorcist 1 Incantatrix 3 and be off with awesome buffing the whole team. Yeah the -5 CL will hurt a lot but since Warweaver can only use spells up to level 5 in the tapestry.

If you think the Party needs to be larger... then Psion Telepath + Thrallherd for obvious reasons.
If you want to be the GOD of meta-magic: Elf generalist wizard 5 + Incantatrix 10 + Archmage 5 or Metaphysical Spellshaper with Item Familiar feat, apply spellcaft cheat an be done (SC check of 100+ for insane meta-magic)
Well and many more... it really depends what you want to play and what the party wants to play.

[Falcon X]

For a big group, you will want to either do all wizards or get very niche with your roles, as everybody doing everything will get boring.
Note: Factotum is a poor choice here. Amazing for small parties, looses it's luster in big ones.

Ideas:
1. Beguiler. It's a support character, so it doesn't step on anyone's toes. It's really good at what it does, and has some crazy good stuff, especially if you dip into Shadowcraft Mage. Even if you don't, you are able to eventually pull off spells with the enemy never knowing you tried anything.

2. Crusader. Tank build. You need a tank and this guy can redirect everything to him. He also has full range of alignment options, so you can make it's ideas match, or not match, with the party.

3. Void Disciple. A solid support character built on a spellcaster chassis. Able to see everything and boost the party.

[Sandsarecool]

Ho Hum.
Firstly, some burning questions:
How Fatalistic is your campaign?
How does your DM like to play? Heavy emphasis on combat, RP or something else?
Do you know the guys at your table? You might be able to guess what they're likely to do. (Like, y'know, whether they'd be up for ALL going wizard... Who actually DOES that in a non-one-shot campaign?)
Do your guys DISLIKE TOLERATE stepping on each other's toes? Having people who can mimic somebody else's thing can be useful sometimes, though it requires party unity. Especially if the group gets split up.
Is everybody happy with the rules and rulesets introduced by things like Bo9S and/or Psionics?
What level of power do you guys like to play at? (Samurai all the way bruh)
Nobody else has ANY idea of what they want to play? At all?

There will inevitably be more questions, but that's all that insta-spring to mind right now.

Also, I like the factotum idea. If the DM does split your group up as you say (or you, I guess), then the factotum has plenty of time to shine.

EDIT: Since you mention 'group synergies', can I assume you want atleast vague ideas on what the other party members should take?
oh, and uh, LA buyoff allowed? :smallbiggrin:

[Sir Broesbon]

Ho Hum.
Firstly, some burning questions:
How Fatalistic is your campaign?
How does your DM like to play? Heavy emphasis on combat, RP or something else?
Do you know the guys at your table? You might be able to guess what they're likely to do. (Like, y'know, whether they'd be up for ALL going wizard... Who actually DOES that in a non-one-shot campaign?)
Do your guys DISLIKE TOLERATE stepping on each other's toes? Having people who can mimic somebody else's thing can be useful sometimes, though it requires party unity. Especially if the group gets split up.
Is everybody happy with the rules and rulesets introduced by things like Bo9S and/or Psionics?
What level of power do you guys like to play at? (Samurai all the way bruh)
Nobody else has ANY idea of what they want to play? At all?

There will inevitably be more questions, but that's all that insta-spring to mind right now.

Also, I like the factotum idea. If the DM does split your group up as you say (or you, I guess), then the factotum has plenty of time to shine.

EDIT: Since you mention 'group synergies', can I assume you want atleast vague ideas on what the other party members should take?
oh, and uh, LA buyoff allowed? :smallbiggrin:

So many Questions. :smalleek:
1) Kinda Fatalistic? Our DMs tend to play this as a less screw-yo'-character version of DeathwatchTM
2) Um, everything, slightly dungeon-crawl focused? I'm not sure how to answer that.
3) We all know each other well. Some of the guys are talking about potential ideas as I write. I'll stick them in once they have a role they want to fill.
4) So long as nobody is purposefully being a **** about it, we get on pretty well.
5) We've all played with almost every subsystem I can think of. Check.
6) It varies from campaign to campaign. For this one? due to the stat rolls, we want to aim high. Tiers 1-3, with someone inevitably going Tier 4 for ze lolz.
7) Hang on...
8) Yes.
9) Yes.

[CharonsHelper]

One combo that is very potent, funny, and will actually speed up your gameplay -

Have one character play a Halfling lancer (in one of the mount based classes without an animal companion - which generally makes them weak) and another play a dwarf barbarian (another class can work - but they're beefy and fast) which the Halfling rides into battle!

They both benefit. The Halfling gets a badass mount which is short enough for him to ride pretty much everywhere, while the dwarf gets his AC boosted by Mounted Combat (and other feats/abilities later) and likely a better initiative (since they both go at the rider's initiative). All for the low low price of a penalty to the halfling's Ride checks due to an unusual mount. (also need an exotic saddle)

What's really funny/awesome is that technically the Halfling can do damage to the dwarf with his spurs to make him move faster in a pinch. :P

Dwarf: "Hey Halfling, why're you wearin' spurs. You aren't plannin' to use them are you? If you do, you'll regret it!"

Halfling: (looks innocent) "They just look cool." *cough* (whispers) "and for emergencies"

[Eldariel]

Well. One fun theme would be to, as Dire_Stirge suggested, run a set of 8 specialist Wizards. Build all of 'em to excel at their specialty. Abjurer as the counterspell/dispel master, Diviner as the know-it-all (works nicely with Rogue 1/Unseen Seer ->), Enchanter as the diplomacy specialist/mindrapist, Evoker as the Force expert, Illusionist as the Shadowcraft Mage, Necromancer as the...necromancer, Conjurer as the summoner and Transmuter as the buffer/frontliner.

Other than that, mass buffs and force multipliers like Bards shine more in bigger parties. Casters are as good as ever. Yeah, crafting is strong: you don't need an Artificer to that end. Plenty of options exist.

[Sandsarecool]

Argh! Fast response! :smalleek:

So many Questions. :smalleek:
Apologies. I like to have information before I make judgements.


1) Kinda Fatalistic? Our DMs tend to play this as a less screw-yo'-character version of DeathwatchTM
Ok. I ask this because you'll want somebody to be able to fill in a gap (even if it's only temporary) if a party member kicks the bucket. Assuming you don't just turn around the resurrect him. Her. It.

I'm reluctant to give hard and fast advice, but try getting your members to develop secondary niches that match or merge someone else's main niche. That way, nobody really gets in somebody else's way (they aren't quite as good, but better than the random commoner adventurer off the street). Give me some more ideas on what your group wants to make (Cha focused X, Primary Caster, Skillmonkey + Minor Casting, etc.) so we can push you from there. Vague questions give vague answers.


6) It varies from campaign to campaign. For this one? due to the stat rolls, we want to aim high. Tiers 1-3, with someone inevitably going Tier 4 for ze lolz. I have that problem too. I once played a game with a Wizard, a Druid, A Favoured Soul and... something else. Then Party member No. 5 rolled up a Commoner, (for the best flaws in the game, of course) and took levels of Knight. The true Chicken Infested Weresheep Peasant HeroTM. He got killed quickly enough.
Power = Casting as far as I know (REAL power, that is), but you certainly don't want to neglect a BSF.


7) Hang on...
I'm waiting, honest...

[Sir Broesbon]

I have that problem too. I once played a game with a Wizard, a Druid, A Favoured Soul and... something else. Then Party member No. 5 rolled up a Commoner, (for the best flaws in the game, of course) and took levels of Knight. The true Chicken Infested Weresheep Peasant HeroTM. He got killed quickly enough.
Power = Casting as far as I know (REAL power, that is), but you certainly don't want to neglect a BSF.
This made me laugh. Out of interest, how did he die? Doing daring feats of unimaginable heroism, I assume? :smalltongue:

[Thaneus]

So it is more of a steamrolled train of power-gaming where the dm is flexing his muscles...
well at least someone of you can take my wiz+ican+x suggestion then, with that power level, the Thrallerd too.
A typical clerczilla build.
For the crafty guy in the group, full flagged artificer for the "whoho i made more magic items for 10% normal price for you" touch.
Spell to power Erudite 20...
For the more melee orientated guy with knack for the arcane wu jen+warblade+jade phoenix mage makes himself be the Big Smart Fighter
Go with the suggestion, be any kind of wizard or cleric and be done.
Druid+Planar Shepard
Cleric+Crusader+Ruby Knight WINdicator
Ardent 5 + Ur-Priest 2 + 8 Psychic Theurge + Ardent 5 with Dominant ideal ACF for level 9 Psi and 9 Divine
Psion 5 + Anarchic Initiate 10 + Ghostbreaker 5 (Hyperconscious PRC) or ArchPsion (Minds Eye)
well that is it for now, at least from my side.

[Sir Broesbon]

So it is more of a steamrolled train of power-gaming where the dm is flexing his muscles...
Heh. I guess it will be.

well at least someone of you can take my wiz+ican+x suggestion then, with that power level, the Thrallerd too.
A typical clerczilla build.
For the crafty guy in the group, full flagged artificer for the "whoho i made more magic items for 10% normal price for you" touch.
Okay, screw it. Not 'I'ma God' power level. Bring it down a tad. Too much power is no fun, even when we can all manage it.
Artificer is banned. Assuming that's because of our last game, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he'll probably discourage crafting. The old Artificer is still recovering from having books thrown at him.


Spell to power Erudite 20...
Um, what is? :smallredface:


For the more melee orientated guy with knack for the arcane wu jen+warblade+jade phoenix mage makes himself be the Big Smart Fighter
Go with the suggestion, be any kind of wizard or cleric and be done.
Druid+Planar Shepard
Cleric+Crusader+Ruby Knight WINdicator
Ardent 5 + Ur-Priest 2 + 8 Psychic Theurge + Ardent 5 with Dominant ideal ACF for level 9 Psi and 9 Divine
Psion 5 + Anarchic Initiate 10 + Ghostbreaker 5 (Hyperconscious PRC) or ArchPsion (Minds Eye)
well that is it for now, at least from my side.
No Bard in there at all? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh, bad news. Because we want high levels of power, Leadership (and its friends, including Thrallherd :smallfrown:) is banned.

[Thaneus]

Um, what is? :smallredface:


Erudite is a Psion variant which to say... is the child of a Wizard on crack and a Psion with dope. They can learn all non disciple powers to 9 and everything else to 8 before entering epic, with everything i mean everything from psionic to arcane to divine all unique class spells on any list. But they have a counter for each day for different power they can use (max 11 unique powers @20 each day) which resets with powerpoint refill.

[Name1]

Erudite is a Psion variant which to say... is the child of a Wizard on crack and a Psion with dope. They can learn all non disciple powers to 9 and everything else to 8 before entering epic, with everything i mean everything from psionic to arcane to divine all unique class spells on any list. But they have a counter for each day for different power they can use (max 11 unique powers @20 each day) which resets with powerpoint refill.

I do believe that you can actually give these powers to regular Wilders via Psychic Chirurgery. In theory, it is entirely possible for a fullmanifester to know all nonepic spells in the game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You definitely want to backport a tactician from Pathfinder. It's perfect for groups, and in a group this big, the synergy benefits are overwhelming.

Re:Erudites - don't forget that only the StP erudite specifically can learn spells, and only those spells they actually find (on live casters - scrolls don't work, and neither do spellbooks). Yes, you can learn all divine spells, if you have a Wyrm Wizard on hand, but you need to read them out of some arcane caster's mind. It's relatively easy to shut down erudite spell learning, unless the DM is allowing it to happen in backstory.

[Flickerdart]

We're playing at big table, and the DM said this is going to be a high-power campaign. (Rolls are 6d6, drop lowest two) We've got 8 players, but instead of going off and making individual characters, I thought I'd ask the boards for some wisdom for group. synergies. We're allowed all 3.0 and 3.5 books, as well as Pathfinder, so long as it's no too difficult to back-port.
One of our guys has his heart set on factotum, so I guess that'll be one of them.

I'll get rolls in when I can find 'em.

Oh, and Artificer is banned for this campaign. We made our DM sad last time.
Thoughts?

The most important question is - what level are you? A level 1 party of 8 characters is just about manageable, but the length of turns will increase dramatically as you go up in levels. So here's some advice everyone in the party should follow:


Don't do short-term buffs. Time that people spend doing math, especially if you have to wait for 7 people to all finish, is time not spent having fun. Make sure all your buffs are long-term and/or at will, so that people can prepare character sheets that already account for the buffs they expect.
Avoid characters that make a lot of rolls. A thri-kreen quad-wielding hand crossbows with Splitting bolts is a cool character, but not for this game.
Do not summon minions, animate undead, bind demons, or attract a cohort/animal. The fewer bodies in the group, the better.
Don't make any character that engages in "minigames." While the ranger is scouting, 7 people are sitting there bored. While the rogue is picking locks or disarming traps, 7 people are sitting there bored. While the wizard plays 20 questions with his contact other plane spell, 7 people are sitting there bored.
Learn to make decisions outside of the session (spell prep, loot division).

[Canine]

You definitely want to backport a tactician from Pathfinder. It's perfect for groups, and in a group this big, the synergy benefits are overwhelming.

Re:Erudites - don't forget that only the StP erudite specifically can learn spells, and only those spells they actually find (on live casters - scrolls don't work, and neither do spellbooks). Yes, you can learn all divine spells, if you have a Wyrm Wizard on hand, but you need to read them out of some arcane caster's mind. It's relatively easy to shut down erudite spell learning, unless the DM is allowing it to happen in backstory.

Seconded Tactician. Vitalist is also good for groups, although both Tactician and Vitalist might initially have problems getting the whole group in one Collective.

[Sir Broesbon]

The most important question is - what level are you? A level 1 party of 8 characters is just about manageable, but the length of turns will increase dramatically as you go up in levels. So here's some advice everyone in the party should follow:


Don't do short-term buffs. Time that people spend doing math, especially if you have to wait for 7 people to all finish, is time not spent having fun. Make sure all your buffs are long-term and/or at will, so that people can prepare character sheets that already account for the buffs they expect.
Avoid characters that make a lot of rolls. A thri-kreen quad-wielding hand crossbows with Splitting bolts is a cool character, but not for this game.
Do not summon minions, animate undead, bind demons, or attract a cohort/animal. The fewer bodies in the group, the better.
Don't make any character that engages in "minigames." While the ranger is scouting, 7 people are sitting there bored. While the rogue is picking locks or disarming traps, 7 people are sitting there bored. While the wizard plays 20 questions with his contact other plane spell, 7 people are sitting there bored.
Learn to make decisions outside of the session (spell prep, loot division).


DM is going to enforce a 15-second rule. That is, we have 15 seconds to start acting on our turn. If we take longer, we lose the round. It's harsh, but we can all see why.
We always keep Post-its that give us the updated info when we get boosted. Speeds up the game a ton, provided everybody is feeling competent that day. ...And if they remember to bring their stuff.
We've a gentleman's agreement to just suck it up if a character NEEDS to 'minigame'. Else the DM will rock our world will ALL THE TRAPS.
Everybody already does that; we've even made a point of having a general purpose list for each character's spells in case somebody flubbs.

I mentioned level before, but I guess it wasn't clear. We start at level 5, and get a WBL of a lvl 4 PC/player.

[Sir Broesbon]

Seconded Tactician. Vitalist is also good for groups, although both Tactician and Vitalist might initially have problems getting the whole group in one Collective.
Um... I'm the only guy who hasn't Pathfinder'd before. Could some kind soul enlighten me as to what these do? Any work needed to back-port them?

EDIT: I've got the rolls! Here they are:

#1: 14, 15, 15, 17, 19, 23 - Me, of course.
#2: 16, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21 - The budding Factotum
#3: 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 20 - Unsure
#4: 14, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22 - Wants Cha based build and/or Psionics
#5: 15, 16, 17, 17, 18, 22 - Unsure
#6: 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 24 - Wants to be a sneaky sneak.
#7: 15, 16, 16, 17, 18, 20 - Unsure
#8: 6, 12, 16, 18, 21, 24 :smalleek: - Very Unsure

EDIT II: This is before racial adjustments. Nobody's picked a race.

[Fouredged Sword]

Vitalist is basically a psionic healer who is sorta a psionic warweaver but as a base class. They set up a psionic network between people and start handing out buffs and heals like candy. It would be easy to import, just roll it right it.

Be ready for the party to be VERY hard to kill. DSP actually made in combat healing worth while. Everyone will have vigor up (lots of temp HP).

[Elkad]

Honestly, my thoughts are that you should probably split the group in half. Eight players at one table is too many. D&D isn't designed to handle a party that big.

D&D works just fine with 8. Sure, combat slows down, but the rest of the game is completely seamless.
In some cases it's even better. You get to have big battles, a low-op party can do stuff at the correct level (instead of giving them extra levels, which breaks things), etc.

It is right on the edge of "need a second DM" to keep fights moving smoothly. But you can manage with organized players, a visible initiative tree on the table/wall, requirements that summon/polymorph creatures need to have prepared stat sheets in combat, etc.

I've played in games with far more people than that (and 3 DMs, one who was just a referee, and 2 pushing monsters).


Computer aids raise the limit even more. You can have a seriously big game using something like RPTools, where people click target>full attack, and it resolves almost instantly.

[Sir Broesbon]

D&D works just fine with 8. Sure, combat slows down, but the rest of the game is completely seamless.
In some cases it's even better. You get to have big battles, a low-op party can do stuff at the correct level (instead of giving them extra levels, which breaks things), etc.

It is right on the edge of "need a second DM" to keep fights moving smoothly. But you can manage with organized players, a visible initiative tree on the table/wall, requirements that summon/polymorph creatures need to have prepared stat sheets in combat, etc.

I've played in games with far more people than that (and 3 DMs, one who was just a referee, and 2 pushing monsters).


Computer aids raise the limit even more. You can have a seriously big game using something like RPTools, where people click target>full attack, and it resolves almost instantly.
Apart from the fact we're going fairly high OP for this game, I totally agree. Co-DMs are awesome sauce for encounters.

[Sandsarecool]

I've got the rolls! Here they are:

#1: 14, 15, 15, 17, 19, 23 - Me, of course.
#2: 16, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21 - The budding Factotum
#3: 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 20 - Unsure
#4: 14, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22 - Wants Cha based build and/or Psionics
#5: 15, 16, 17, 17, 18, 22 - Unsure
#6: 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 24 - Wants to be a sneaky sneak.
#7: 15, 16, 16, 17, 18, 20 - Unsure
#8: 6, 12, 16, 18, 21, 24 :smalleek: - Very Unsure

EDIT II: This is before racial adjustments. Nobody's picked a race.
Not bad rolls, across the board. #6 Must have had a lucky day. And #8... certainly has... the most... varied... rolls.
Get atleast two Primary casters, you won't regret it. Get #4 to get a Cha+ race and dip marshal. Trust me.
My sneaks are generally fairly powerful, but mostly mundane, so I'm not sure if you'd want my wisdom there.

This is begging for gishing or Bo9S somewhere; you've got the stats. Or do both, one of you! JPM or RKV aren't bad choices by any means.

Want any help with races and/or templates while we're at it?

[Sir Broesbon]

Not bad rolls, across the board. #6 Must have had a lucky day. And #8... certainly has... the most... varied... rolls.
Get atleast two Primary casters, you won't regret it. Get #4 to get a Cha+ race and dip marshal. Trust me.
My sneaks are generally fairly powerful, but mostly mundane, so I'm not sure if you'd want my wisdom there.

This is begging for gishing or Bo9S somewhere; you've got the stats. Or do both, one of you! JPM or RKV aren't bad choices by any means.

Want any help with races and/or templates while we're at it?
#8 managed to roll a 1,1,2,1,2,1. Geez... It was hilarious, though.

Sure, We could do with some help with races and templates. We're allowed to play monsters, too.

[Flickerdart]

Else the DM will rock our world will ALL THE TRAPS.
I expect the DM is going to stop rocking your world after about the third time he has to wait for 8 players to all roll at once and tell him what they got.

[Sandsarecool]

I expect the DM is going to stop rocking your world after about the third time he has to wait for 8 players to all roll at once and tell him what they got.
Nah. That's fairly commonplace if you're playing with a big group. It's inevitable.

[Sir Broesbon]

Nah. That's fairly commonplace if you're playing with a big group. It's inevitable.
+1. Besides, if it gets too slow, we've already agreed that people who don't show up will get kicked.

[Flickerdart]

Nah. That's fairly commonplace if you're playing with a big group. It's inevitable.

It's not inevitable. It's only inevitable if the DM insists on having traps all the time. As soon as the DM realizes that this is a colossal waste of time, he will stop having so many traps, and therefore make the event less commonplace. You follow?

[CharonsHelper]

It's not inevitable. It's only inevitable if the DM insists on having traps all the time. As soon as the DM realizes that this is a colossal waste of time, he will stop having so many traps, and therefore make the event less commonplace. You follow?

Traps on their own are pretty much always a waste of time. A few strategically placed traps in the middle of a fight can be interesting. (Like pit traps when fighting goblins/kobolds which only go off for 50+ pounds on them.)

[Sandsarecool]

It's not inevitable. It's only inevitable if the DM insists on having traps all the time. As soon as the DM realizes that this is a colossal waste of time, he will stop having so many traps, and therefore make the event less commonplace. You follow?

Traps on their own are pretty much always a waste of time. A few strategically placed traps in the middle of a fight can be interesting. (Like pit traps when fighting goblins/kobolds which only go off for 50+ pounds on them.)

I meant traps in a more liberal sense; not the mechanical term D&D uses. And ambush is in of itself a 'trap' in my eyes. As for what you both say, I agree. A trap on its own is pointless. ...Unless it purposely does nothing (not even damage). That just makes the party paranoid. Perfect for that Diabolical BBEG.

All right, I’ll accept the fact that some of you have twisted ideas about how to administrate a
dungeon. Newfangled ideas about delvers actually escaping with their lives, and stuff like that.
To each his own, I suppose, but if you’re going to be a maverick, then you’ve got to blaze your own
trails. Don’t ask me to make my traps less deadly… change them yourself.
Now isn’t that a fresh idea? Bet you can’t find a rule for that in your hardbacks.
You see, these traps are now yours you don’t need special permission or a membership card
to change them to your liking. You certainly don’t need permission from those Coastal Wizards.
Use your imagination. Use these traps any way you want to. That’s right, you can increase or decrease
the “punch” of a given trap by altering its consequences. This will depend upon your mood and
circumstances, naturally. By filling a pit with an obnoxiousEsmelling green dye instead of boiling
oil, you have altered the entire trap — yet the delivery system remains the same. With a modicum
of monkeying around, you should be able to make any of the traps in this book leap through hoops
for the edification and bemusement of delvers who journey through your dungeons.
I won’t come after you if you do change some. But if I ever receive another letter about
how my traps are “too deadly,” I’m going to hand some wimp his head. Is that clear, human
worms? Grimtooth will not be bothered again!
After all, my traps are perfect as is. You’d have to be some sort of pinhead to want
to change them.
Besides, killing isn’t really the point. Any fool can kill adventurers with incredible ease, and
perhaps my traps have merely given them new and more complex weapons. If this is true, it is
a pity. I have found that it’s not nearly so much fun to kill as it is to terrify.
The most delicate and vulnerable part of any delver cannot be armored; it cannot be
strengthened by magic or regrown after drinking a potion. I speak, of course, of the
adventurer’s ego. All too often it is forgotten and left unmarred by DMs who scarcely
deserve such an honored title. It is to the pursuit of ego shredding that this volume
of traps is dedicated. -The Wurst of Grimtooth's traps, Necromancer Games

[Canine]

Um... I'm the only guy who hasn't Pathfinder'd before. Could some kind soul enlighten me as to what these do? Any work needed to back-port them?

EDIT: I've got the rolls! Here they are:

#1: 14, 15, 15, 17, 19, 23 - Me, of course.
#2: 16, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21 - The budding Factotum
#3: 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 20 - Unsure
#4: 14, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22 - Wants Cha based build and/or Psionics
#5: 15, 16, 17, 17, 18, 22 - Unsure
#6: 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 24 - Wants to be a sneaky sneak.
#7: 15, 16, 16, 17, 18, 20 - Unsure
#8: 6, 12, 16, 18, 21, 24 :smalleek: - Very Unsure

EDIT II: This is before racial adjustments. Nobody's picked a race.

Backporting should be fairly simple, as long as you let them keep their own power lists with the PF versions of the powers, and a few feats related to class abilities. Tacticians get free Teamwork feats, but those could probably be swapped for something in 3.5 core without a ton of loss.

Someone else compared them to Psionic War Weavers, which is pretty accurate. The Tactician's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?228324-PF-The-Chess-Master-A-Tactical-Guide-to-the-Tactician) and the Vitalist's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222365-PF-Mental-Medicine-a-Vitalist-Handbook) will help, but basically the Tactician is an Int based manifester focused on buffing and control, while the Vitalist is Wis based and covers healing and some buffing. Either one gets you a Collective (psychic network) covering most of the group initially (all with feats or after a couple levels) and allowing telepathic communication within the group; great for sneaks, politics, cheating at cards, etc.

[Quertus]

1) In theory.
2) We wrecked his carefully articulated plan that assumed everything was WBL. Some other shenanigans, too. Either way, It's a no go for the campaign.
3) This is one of the few times we're allowed everything ever, so if possible we'd like to diversify. Not a requirement though.
4) 5. going to 18. Though with this DM, it means 20. Always ends up like that.

Your DM believes in careful plans... that include WBL? What do you expect the playground to say that won't get him to ban D&D? :smalltongue:

For an example of breaking everything, get everyone to play a half-golem crusader 1 / whatever 1. Give everyone a dwom. Use... the stance that says, if I threaten you, attack me or take a -4 penalty to hit. Between 7 allies they aren't attacking and natural armor from half golem, you're looking at easily hitting AC 40. And half golem also gives you unbeatable spell resistance, DR, and some decent stat boosts (+12 str, IIRC). You don't even need dwom proficiency to wreck house.


The question is really, what power level will you play as a group and how's the rules mastery for people.
I play in a group where all is allowed except Factotum (don't ask my why) Paragon Class and Incantatrix (well this one I understand) and he restricts us to non evil. Even DragMag (but only with approval). But we are not aiming to be all Tier 1-3; I play a Bard, another a scout, a Templar and one wizard who to be honest will likely not draw out its full potential. Except the Wizard we are mediocre optimized, because we want the challenge.
With a Factotum you have a skill-monkey buddy who can aid crating stuff, sneak around, be a face and so on... depending of his focus and optimizing skills.
When you know all will play 3-5 Tier don't be the only one with the heavy optimized Tier 1 or 2, you will crush the fun for all most the time.
If all use 1-3 Tier then be my guest and aim for godhood.

If you want to go buffer and have retrain enabled or a Psion buddy in team with (which he should have) psionic reformation make Warmage 1 Rainbowservant 10 Warweaver 5 Sacred Exorcist 1 Incantatrix 3 and be off with awesome buffing the whole team. Yeah the -5 CL will hurt a lot but since Warweaver can only use spells up to level 5 in the tapestry.

If you think the Party needs to be larger... then Psion Telepath + Thrallherd for obvious reasons.


I was going to raise you one Illithid Savant, to eat the brains of multiple Thrallherds, but that doesn't come online early enough.

Never seen it, but I'm told there's an item (a rod?) that you can buy one of, pass around the party, and get skeletons for everyone.

Combine this with my idea above, and make the gods on earth, who try not to act themselves, but let their minions do all the work.


The most important question is - what level are you? A level 1 party of 8 characters is just about manageable, but the length of turns will increase dramatically as you go up in levels. So here's some advice everyone in the party should follow:


Don't do short-term buffs. Time that people spend doing math, especially if you have to wait for 7 people to all finish, is time not spent having fun. Make sure all your buffs are long-term and/or at will, so that people can prepare character sheets that already account for the buffs they expect.
Avoid characters that make a lot of rolls. A thri-kreen quad-wielding hand crossbows with Splitting bolts is a cool character, but not for this game.
Do not summon minions, animate undead, bind demons, or attract a cohort/animal. The fewer bodies in the group, the better.
Don't make any character that engages in "minigames." While the ranger is scouting, 7 people are sitting there bored. While the rogue is picking locks or disarming traps, 7 people are sitting there bored. While the wizard plays 20 questions with his contact other plane spell, 7 people are sitting there bored.
Learn to make decisions outside of the session (spell prep, loot division).


I'm glad you think my question was important.

I was going to argue that short-term buffs might actually be worthwhile in a party of this size, giving up one person's action to make 7 people better, until I read your reasoning. Yeah, minimizing turn length is something to strive for anyway; even more so in a larger group.

[Fizban]

DM is going to enforce a 15-second rule. That is, we have 15 seconds to start acting on our turn. If we take longer, we lose the round. It's harsh, but we can all see why.
I think this is the problem that most groups run into, refusal to accept a time limit. If everyone is actually ready for their turns and takes them quickly, combat is fast. If you've got someone who refuses to accept a time limit they've essentially admitted they're the problem.

People mentioning the Tactician have given me a suggestion: the Commander from The War of the Burning Sky's free sample (https://wotbsadventurepath.com/free-intro-pack/). It's not a 9th level manifester with a bunch of extra abilities, but I'd count that as a plus most of the time. The Commander is basically a Marshal fix, with a side of "inspire courage" and other abilities as feats, including a version of the Marshal's Grant Move Action ability in the Manuever Leader feat.

That's the kind of ability that really doesn't do much in a normal party. You've got one, maybe two guys who want to be up front and probably already have their own ability to move+full attack. But an oversized party fighting an oversized group of foes is going to have more issues of people not being where they want to be. Here comes Manuever Leader, letting you position as much as every member of your party in full attack or defensive positions as desired for a single action. There are spells that can do that, but they're much higher level.