Deathtrap room

[Jowgen]

I am looking for means to design a high-end deathtrap. Specifically, a locked room (10 x 10 x 10), that one might conceivably get into, but can't possibly leave alive. I have a basic design and am looking for improvements.

The room is made of solid Voidstone. This "block" exhibits "expert handiwork and building materials”, which as per Dungeonscape p. 144 warrants an extra 5 Hardness and 50% HP. It has then been subjected to the spells, Hardening (CL 20, another 10 Hardness) and Fortify Metal or Stone spell (doubles Hardness). Lastly, it has received the Magically Treated wall augumentation (SBG), doubling its hardness and HP. End hardness: (8 + 5 + 10) x 4 = 92 (or 69, if the two doublings are counted as x 3). Assuming 1 ft of tickness, HP would be 225 per wall.

The inside of the room has had Forbiddance cast upon it, as well as Hallow tied to an as of yet unspecified spell. The room itself features Sigils of Antimagic and is a Room of Rending (SBG p. 83).

As is, the difficulty is as follows:

- Upon arriving in the room, the creature is subject to the AMF, negating Spells, SLAs and SUs. Unless it is capable of non-magical flight (with the ability to hover in place), it will come in contact with the ground and be Forced to Save against the Voidstone (DC 25 Fort or bust), each round that it comes into contact.
- If the creature makes its save, or can hover in place, it now gets a round's worth of actions.
- It can try to force its way out physically, trying to deal enough damage to overcome the hardness of the wall and whittle down its HP. Each such attempt will trigger another Fort save, while the small dimensions of the room make (uber) charging impossible, and the lack of magic hinders damage output.
- A rogue can attempt to disable the AMF with Disable Device, but this will require voidstone contact, and suppressing it prior to supressing the Disjunction effect will trigger the Disjunction.
- The creature can try to overcome the AMF with its assorted methods. With the AMF emiting from the room itself, a simple tinfoil hat will not suffice (plus it would likely contact the Voidstone and be gone). Should it somehow be able to suppress the AMF, it will still be prevented from leaving by the Forbiddance spell, and then be subject to the effect of Disjunction (as the AMF no longer protects it against it). Arguably, any spells it attempts to cast that ignore the AMF (e.g. Initiate of Mystra) will be auto-subjected to the Disjunction as well.

So yeah, as is I've been toying with which Spells might be a good pick to Hallow-Fix, and mundane/alchemical ways to make the room even less habitable. Also, there are obviously some loopholes I've overlocked.

Ideas anyone? :smallsmile:

EDIT: Current Changes to the above based on thread progress

Anchor Mists (Dungeonscape p. 140) replaces Forbiddance
Sigils of Supression added as an extra Invoke Magic counter

[Extra Anchovies]

Big hole: the sigils of antimagic suppress the Forbiddance effect. Invoke Magic -> Dimension Door, done. The Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink maneuvers would also work because the Forbiddance is suppressed within the room and the maneuvers are (ex) effects.

[Jowgen]

Big hole: the sigils of antimagic suppress the Forbiddance effect. Invoke Magic -> Dimension Door, done. The Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink maneuvers would also work because the Forbiddance is suppressed within the room and the maneuvers are (ex) effects.

I think Room of Rending's Disjunction effect would be triggered invoke magic and similar, but I did fail to consider Ex-based teleports.

*checks for solution*

Okay, the SBG's Web expansion has Forbidding Sigils, which work as Forbiddance, but provided that my original assumption that a piece of wondrous architecture won't suppress part of its own effects holds up, this should work as a replacement.

[Deophaun]

Initiators probably won't care about hardness, and will make a Concentration check every other round for the save. The Planar Touchstone feat for Catalogues of Enlightenment and the Pride domain power allow rerolls of 1s on saving throws, which if he can boost his Fort save to 24 without magic will mean he only has a 1 in 400 chance of death every round.

[DarkSoul]

How embarrassing do you want your deathtrap? If the answer is "extremely" then it's a 10' hole with perfectly smooth walls filled with whipped cream inside an antimagic field.



You can't see through it because it's whipped cream.
You can't breathe it for the same reason.
You can't climb out because it's surrounded by perfectly smooth walls covered in whipped cream. Make them walls of force if you need to so they're immune to damage.
It's less dense than water, so you can't swim in it; it won't support your weight.
Ever tried talking around a mouthful of the stuff? Yeah, it doesn't work so well.


I think natural flight would be the only salvation below epic levels.

[Name1]

I think a LE Crusader 1/Swordsage 5/Whatever 2 with max cha and con could reasonably use the Martial Stance feat to learn the Aura of Perfect Order, using the Crusaders Devoted Spirit Maneuvers known to qualify. Then he could trigger Evil's Blessing before entering, which results into him getting his Cha and Con (calculating 18 base + 5 Inherent (via cheese) + 1 from level ups = 24) to Fort saves, making him autosave using Aura of Perfect order (11+7+7 =25). Then he can attack the Voidstone unarmed with Mountain Hammer using the Diamond Mind Counter Mind Over Body to subsitute a concentration check for the Fort Save he'd normally need to make (7 Con Mod + 9 Ranks in Concentration + 10 (take 10 via Steady Concentration) = 28).

Basically he would go like this:
Round 0: Evil's Blessing in his Aura of Perfect Order Stance before entering
Round 1: Autosave agaist the Voidstone, then Mountain Hammer the Voidstone, autosave using the Mind Over Body Counter
Round 2: Spent a Full-Round action to recover the Maneuvers, autosaving via Aura of Perfect Order
Round 3: Spent a Standard action to renew Evil's Blessing.
Round 4: See round 1
Basically doing this until he get's tired of it... Which I can see happening pretty easily since we are talking about 10 Minutes of work per Inch...

[Jowgen]

Oh yeah, ToB stuff can sub Concentration for Fort saves.

My familiarity with the material is minimal, so I don't really know what the weaknesses counters are. :smallfrown:

[Khedrac]

Why bother with ToB?

PHBII feat steadfast determination means a natural 1 does not fail Fortitude saves, and as said, at high level having +25 is not that hard, even allowing for the anti-magic.

[Jowgen]

PHBII feat steadfast determination means a natural 1 does not fail Fortitude saves, and as said, at high level having +25 is not that hard, even allowing for the anti-magic.

I was operating under the assumption that someone/something that could spend 2 feats to get Steadfast Determination, and spend enough non-magical resources to get that high a fort save, would then lack the resources needed to escape the AMF/Disjunction/Forbiddance/High-Hardness box.

ToB seems to somewhat mess with that assumption.

Having looked it up, Moment of Perfect Mind is limited to 1/round since it's immediate action. So, what I need is a means to force Voidstone contact at least once per round, or add some other repeated Fort save that's similarly dangerous.

I think I need some sort of hazardous non-magical gas or vapor, that affects non-breathing creatures, is not a poison.

[Darrin]

I think I need some sort of hazardous non-magical gas or vapor, that affects non-breathing creatures, is not a poison.

Anchor Mists (Dungeonscape p. 140). Shuts down all interplaner and teleport travel, does 10d6 damage (Fort half) if anyone tries, are unaffected by winds, and don't appear to be magical. The only counter appears to be Bottled Air (50 GP, Dungeonscape p. 35).

You could also fill the room with Mushroom Powder (BoVD p. 43). It's an inhaled drug, DC 15 isn't all that scary, and initial effect is +2 alchemical bonus to Int and Wis, secondary is 1 point of Str damage, but the kicker is the overdose... if it's "used" more than 3 times in a 24-hour period, it deals 4d6 damage and paralyzes the user for 2d4 hours *no save*. Assuming each round counts as one dose, any creature that shrugs off or ignores the Fort rolls for 4 rounds would be immobilized.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Dragonfire Adepts can cast an instantaneous gust of wind, which should continue blowing inside the antimagic field (it also deals fire damage). It can force lightweight fliers to contact the voidstone. If you sprinkle grains of voidstone around the box, the wind will blow them around, forcing additional fortitude saves, though at that point, you're getting dangerously close to DM fiat, because D&D doesn't model the wind-blown movements of voidstone beads. This is a serious oversight - really, WotC, what were you thinking?

If you assume that air, such as that moved by gust of wind, does need to make fortitude saves against voidstone, the box' interior will quickly be a vacuum, which presents an interesting problem for most natural fliers, beholders being the only exception that comes to mind.

Very strong gravity may also work, for creatures carrying equipment - including fortitude-boosting equipment, of course. Most fliers cannot carry more than a light load aloft, and in triple gravity, some may go over the limit quite quickly.

[Name1]

I was operating under the assumption that someone/something that could spend 2 feats to get Steadfast Determination, and spend enough non-magical resources to get that high a fort save, would then lack the resources needed to escape the AMF/Disjunction/Forbiddance/High-Hardness box.

ToB seems to somewhat mess with that assumption.

Having looked it up, Moment of Perfect Mind is limited to 1/round since it's immediate action. So, what I need is a means to force Voidstone contact at least once per round, or add some other repeated Fort save that's similarly dangerous.

I think I need some sort of hazardous non-magical gas or vapor, that affects non-breathing creatures, is not a poison.

Actually, a Full-On Warblade can still have access to Aura of Perfect Order and Stance of Alacrity and use both, in which case he can make 2 saves of his choice and one save of a different type. Please remember that everything that touches voidstone is gone: You can't drown them.

I'm not 100% sure if Disjunction even works inside the AMF (not to mention doing so without either disrupting the AMF or the Forbiddance), and dispelling either would result in a scenario from which you can escape: Invoke Magic Dimension Door would work if Forbiddance is gone and the Disjuction doesn't work inside AMF. If Forbiddance and AMF are both up, but Disjunction doesn't penetrate the AMF (which is unlikely), you can still wish yourself out of there via Initiate of Mystara. If the AMF is gone, but Forbiddance and Disjunction are still active, you can use a ring of counterspells to deal with the disjunction and cast spells to destroy the Forbiddance Sigils to escape.

[Jowgen]

Actually, a Full-On Warblade can still have access to Aura of Perfect Order and Stance of Alacrity and use both, in which case he can make 2 saves of his choice and one save of a different type. Please remember that everything that touches voidstone is gone: You can't drown them.

I'm not 100% sure if Disjunction even works inside the AMF (not to mention doing so without either disrupting the AMF or the Forbiddance), and dispelling either would result in a scenario from which you can escape: Invoke Magic Dimension Door would work if Forbiddance is gone and the Disjuction doesn't work inside AMF. If Forbiddance and AMF are both up, but Disjunction doesn't penetrate the AMF (which is unlikely), you can still wish yourself out of there via Initiate of Mystara. If the AMF is gone, but Forbiddance and Disjunction are still active, you can use a ring of counterspells to deal with the disjunction and cast spells to destroy the Forbiddance Sigils to escape.

As I said, minimal familiarity. :smallredface:

As far as I can tell, the "Rending room of Antimagic Forbidding Sigils" works as intended, because of the specific wording of the Sigils, which exempts its own magical properties from the AMF: "No magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities, work within this space, nor do any other magic items."

Similarly, the disjunction effect doesn't affect magic already in place when the room comes online: "All magic items (not including artifacts) and magical effects entering this stronghold space are affected as if by Mordenkainen’s disjunction.".

Question though: since any magic brought into the room is suppressed, Disjunction wouldn't trigger right upon a creature's arrival, right?

EDIT: (didn't see prior replies)


Anchor Mists (Dungeonscape p. 140). Shuts down all interplaner and teleport travel, does 10d6 damage (Fort half) if anyone tries, are unaffected by winds, and don't appear to be magical. The only counter appears to be Bottled Air (50 GP, Dungeonscape p. 35).

And we have a replacement for the Forbidding Sigils (whose wording was weird anyway), thank you :smallsmile: I wonder if an argument could be made that the Bottled Air won't work in an air-tight room...


Dragonfire Adepts can cast an instantaneous gust of wind, which should continue blowing inside the antimagic field (it also deals fire damage). It can force lightweight fliers to contact the voidstone. If you sprinkle grains of voidstone around the box, the wind will blow them around, forcing additional fortitude saves, though at that point, you're getting dangerously close to DM fiat, because D&D doesn't model the wind-blown movements of voidstone beads. This is a serious oversight - really, WotC, what were you thinking?

I did consider using Pebble Wind (DoE), as per the Voidstone Cluster Grenade, but getting that to work in the AMF seems too difficult.


If you assume that air, such as that moved by gust of wind, does need to make fortitude saves against voidstone, the box' interior will quickly be a vacuum, which presents an interesting problem for most natural fliers, beholders being the only exception that comes to mind.

Based on existing examples of Voidstone structures found in environments featuring breathable atmosphere, I discount this.


Very strong gravity may also work, for creatures carrying equipment - including fortitude-boosting equipment, of course. Most fliers cannot carry more than a light load aloft, and in triple gravity, some may go over the limit quite quickly.

I looked into it, and couldn't find a way to reliably create strong gravity within an AMF. Now otherwise targeting carrying capicity might be more fruitful perhaps?

EDIT #2: Just found that Sigils of Supression, which add a Globe of Invulnerability-type effect, would be a good addition, as to provide an extra barrier against Invoke Magic, as the Sigils specifically prohibit 4th level or lower spells, making Invoke Magic useless.

[Name1]

As I said, minimal familiarity. :smallredface:

As far as I can tell, the "Rending room of Antimagic Forbidding Sigils" works as intended, because of the specific wording of the Sigils, which exempts its own magical properties from the AMF: "No magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities, work within this space, nor do any other magic items."

Similarly, the disjunction effect doesn't affect magic already in place when the room comes online: "All magic items (not including artifacts) and magical effects entering this stronghold space are affected as if by Mordenkainen’s disjunction.".

Question though: since any magic brought into the room is suppressed, Disjunction wouldn't trigger right upon a creature's arrival, right?


Just for the record: IHS would destroy the room instantly.

Now to the stuff that matters.

So the Disjunction is part of the room then? Because if not, the Antimagic would still suppress it. I assume you used the item combiation rules for this?

A Cancer Mage could possibly smash through the Voidstone, and since he only needs to succeed on a single save, he just needs steadfast determination and a really good fort save. Probably also usig Blessing of Evil. Yet getting such a high save basically means Mind Switching.

A shaedling with the tomb-tained soul feat might be able to do the trick, since a Shaedling can create any item it chooses and Asmodeus Ruby Rod is an item, even if it's a unique artifact. Cheese vs. Cheese, basically.

As a matter of fact, the ass-backwards wording on the two abilities is what makes this weird: The tinfoil hat trick won't even work because the Antimagic Field is no emanation and the Disjunction-effect is not a burst (which also means that Forcecage, which specifically mentions that it works like Wall of Force, meantioning every weakness BUT Disjunction doesn't matter, because it can neither block the AMF nor the Disjunction). The Anchor Mists can't be resisted anyway, because bottle of air is a magic item and thus cannot be used ever. You can't suppress Disjunction, Forbiddance or AMF because they aren't cast, but they just apply. They can't be countered and there is not action economy.

ARGUABLY, Mage's Disjunction cannot counter Instantaneous spells, since it ends effects the same way a Dispel Magic does, and Dispel Magic can't dispel instantaneous effects, thus not ending them (and as Mage's Disjunction ends spell effects like Dispel Magic, it thus doesn't "end" instantaneous effects, as Dispel Magic doesn't end them either), but since it's called "disjoin", so it's somewhat shaky if the magical effects get negated if they have that duration. If not, you can just Initiate of Mystara Disintegrate the voidstone and Sigils. It also stands to reason that something immune to dispelling cannot be disjoined (as a dispel magic wouldn't end these effects either), which seems likely given that Prismatic Wall, Wall of Force ad Prismatic Sphere specifically state that a Dispel Magic doesn't affect them, but a disjunction does (which would be weird to specifically state if the two where already different from each other).

So yeah... seems that outside of maneuvers, you found a way to make an unescapeable room. At least as far as my knowledge goes ('cause we all know that Tippy would win this).

[Darrin]

IHS: I'm not sure if this would destroy anything. In order to use IHS, the effect needs a duration. I don't think the AMF or void stone has a duration.

Flux slime generates an AMF, so maybe put some in a transparent container. It also explodes when exposed to light.

[Extra Anchovies]

Iron Heart Surge only works against effects with durations measured in rounds. "Measured in rounds" excludes anything which uses non-round units to measure its duration, or is instantaneous or permanent. As an example, here's a bit of rules text from Rapid Spell (Complete Divine):


A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round. Rapid spells with casting times measured in minutes can be cast in 1 minute, and rapid spells with casting times measured in hours can be cast in 1 hour.

So IHS isn't entirely helpful in this situation.


I think Room of Rending's Disjunction effect would be triggered invoke magic and similar

That would be incorrect.


All magic items (not including artifacts) and magical effects entering this stronghold space are affected as if by Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Magical effects produced within the room are unaffected, so Invoke Magic lets us cast any spell of 4th level or lower. This room seems to be constructed under the assumption that voidstone counts as stone, so Stone Shape (Sor/Wiz 4) would at least let us get outside the area affected by the antimagic sigils, and we can then use Passwall to tunnel through any remaining wall(s).

[Jowgen]

All magic items (not including artifacts) and magical effects entering this stronghold space are affected as if by Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Magical effects produced within the room are unaffected, so Invoke Magic lets us cast any spell of 4th level or lower. This room seems to be constructed under the assumption that voidstone counts as stone, so Stone Shape (Sor/Wiz 4) would at least let us get outside the area affected by the antimagic sigils, and we can then use Passwall to tunnel through any remaining wall(s).

Now that is something ripe for a semantic argument: does a spell cast within a space enter that space? Does "entering" require something exist elsewhere before coming to be in the designated space? Could the simple act of coming into being from non-existence into existence within the space count as entering? Do the "magical or divine energy"/"components" that make up the "one-time magical effect" that is a spell nothave to come from somewhere, whether that be within the caster or an extraplanar source?

I'd much prefer it if we just didn't go down that road at all. Sigils of Suppression's Globe of Invulnerability effect provides a seperate counter to Invoke Magic anyways.

Also, the assumption of Voidstone counting as stone is based on the existence of Voidstone that has been explicitly made immune to stone-specific spells.

[Name1]

IHS: I'm not sure if this would destroy anything. In order to use IHS, the effect needs a duration. I don't think the AMF or void stone has a duration.

Flux slime generates an AMF, so maybe put some in a transparent container. It also explodes when exposed to light.

I assumed that it's permanent, since it's always active. It exists for longer than 6 seconds, thus the duration of it's existance is higher than 6 seconds, thus it can be defeated via IHS.


Iron Heart Surge only works against effects with durations measured in rounds. "Measured in rounds" excludes anything which uses non-round units to measure its duration, or is instantaneous or permanent.

So... it doesn't work against something with a duration of 10min/level? That... seems like a valid wording. Valid in the same way you can create (Ex) abilities out of nowhere with Manipulate Form as it states nowhere in this ability that it has to be an actually existing ability. So... I guess it is valid, but it's pretty damn shaky. If something lasts 10min/round, it lasts for 100 rounds per level, if something is permanent, it effectively lasts Infinite Rounds per level. I see where you are coming from, it's just very... I can't seem to find the word for it. It makes me cringe when I consider your proposal to what IHS affects, but I can't find the word for it.

[Deophaun]

So... I guess it is valid, but it's pretty damn shaky. If something lasts 10min/round, it lasts for 100 rounds per level, if something is permanent, it effectively lasts Infinite Rounds per level. I see where you are coming from, it's just very... I can't seem to find the word for it. It makes me cringe when I consider your proposal to what IHS affects, but I can't find the word for it.
It gets more shaky when you realize that, in the round after that 10min/level spell is cast, its duration is now measured in rounds. As in--assuming a caster level of 3 for purposes of this example--what once had a duration of 30 minutes now has a duration of 29 minutes and 9 rounds. 90% of the time IHS would be able to work because 90% of the time the duration could not be expressed in whole minutes.

Edit: It is, however, fair to say that spells with a duration of Permanent cannot be ended, as Permanent isn't a measurement at all.

[Extra Anchovies]

So... it doesn't work against something with a duration of 10min/level? That... seems like a valid wording. Valid in the same way you can create (Ex) abilities out of nowhere with Manipulate Form as it states nowhere in this ability that it has to be an actually existing ability.

Writing abilities with Manipulate Form relies on making the assumption that unwritten abilities are still abilities (an assumption which I do not personally ascribe to). Limiting IHS to only effects with durations measured in rounds relies on not making the assumption that converting larger units to rounds is permissible. The way I see it, the two require opposite approaches, with the former extrapolating from the text and the latter not extrapolating from the text.


So... I guess it is valid, but it's pretty damn shaky.

You're darn right it is. This is Tome of Battle, remember?


If something lasts 10min/round, it lasts for 100 rounds per level, if something is permanent, it effectively lasts Infinite Rounds per level.

I disagree. The second sentence of the quoted passage of Rapid Spell (requoted below) establishes that "measured in rounds" and "measured in minutes" are distinct and non-interchangeable rules terms.

A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round. Rapid spells with casting times measured in minutes can be cast in 1 minute, and rapid spells with casting times measured in hours can be cast in 1 hour.


I see where you are coming from, it's just very... I can't seem to find the word for it. It makes me cringe when I consider your proposal to what IHS affects, but I can't find the word for it.

I'd say that's true of about 30% of the content in ToB anyways.


It gets more shaky when you realize that, in the round after that 10min/level spell is cast, its duration is now measured in rounds. As in--assuming a caster level of 3 for purposes of this example--what once had a duration of 30 minutes now has a duration of 29 minutes and 9 rounds. 90% of the time IHS would be able to work because 90% of the time the duration could not be expressed in whole minutes.

"Duration" refers to the total duration of an effect, not its remaining duration. A CL 7 Haste has a 7-round duration - it doesn't matter if it's been five rounds since it was cast, it still has a duration of 7 rounds, because its duration is "1 round/level", and its CL doesn't decrease as time passes. It expires after two more rounds pass, but it does not have a duration of 2 rounds. If IHS meant "remaining duration measured in rounds", it would've said "remaining duration measured in rounds".

Isn't Tome of Battle fun?

[Gdesign95]

So this is a trap room that I used once that could easily be made to kill.

it relies on only one spell an illusion that the room is full of air and the trap is that the air gets sucked out of the room once the door closes, include a complex puzzle door and assuming they aren't thinking about illusions and you are discreet in the rolls you suffocate them and the only point at which they will realize it is once one of them falls unconscious. combine this with a forbidance spell and some disguising magic plus traps that trigger if they "fail" the puzzle door to make them think that that is the thing they need to do and you can easily wipe out an entire party.

the main issue is then making sure they will actually try to do the puzzle as opposed to blasting it down/making the room blast proof. a good solution is to make the room and both doors adamantine and incredibly thick (more than seems appropriate). the puzzle door looks like it can be opened but can only be opened from the other side of the death trap. fiscal players won't want to destroy hundreds of king's ransoms of adamantine and will stop suspicious players. plus disintegration only destroys a certain amount per cast so you would need a lot of casts to get through the overly thick doors combine this with a magic effect which repairs the room (simple enough to make using magic item rules) to slow it even further. the fortitude saves initially are incredibly easy but each one they succeed on only increases the next one and once they fail once their life has a countdown.

honestly save or die only is guaranteed to work if it increases constantly and is not something they realize is happening. give them a reason to believe they need to breach the door non-magically and you guarantee death. maybe add a spell detection system that will trigger a prismatic spray each time they try magic. even if they don't all have to worry about it at least one of them will plus the damage will add up this is a very effective deterrent.

however I have to wonder is this a DM tries to kill the players game or did they do something to deserve this?

[InvisibleBison]

So this is a trap room that I used once that could easily be made to kill.

it relies on only one spell an illusion that the room is full of air and the trap is that the air gets sucked out of the room once the door closes, include a complex puzzle door and assuming they aren't thinking about illusions and you are discreet in the rolls you suffocate them and the only point at which they will realize it is once one of them falls unconscious. combine this with a forbidance spell and some disguising magic plus traps that trigger if they "fail" the puzzle door to make them think that that is the thing they need to do and you can easily wipe out an entire party.

the main issue is then making sure they will actually try to do the puzzle as opposed to blasting it down/making the room blast proof. a good solution is to make the room and both doors adamantine and incredibly thick (more than seems appropriate). the puzzle door looks like it can be opened but can only be opened from the other side of the death trap. fiscal players won't want to destroy hundreds of king's ransoms of adamantine and will stop suspicious players. plus disintegration only destroys a certain amount per cast so you would need a lot of casts to get through the overly thick doors combine this with a magic effect which repairs the room (simple enough to make using magic item rules) to slow it even further. the fortitude saves initially are incredibly easy but each one they succeed on only increases the next one and once they fail once their life has a countdown.

honestly save or die only is guaranteed to work if it increases constantly and is not something they realize is happening. give them a reason to believe they need to breach the door non-magically and you guarantee death. maybe add a spell detection system that will trigger a prismatic spray each time they try magic. even if they don't all have to worry about it at least one of them will plus the damage will add up this is a very effective deterrent.

however I have to wonder is this a DM tries to kill the players game or did they do something to deserve this?

Two questions about your deathtrap.

Firstly, what's to stop the victims from simply teleporting out?

Secondly, just how big is the door? You said you expect it to require multiple castings of disintegrate to destroy it, but disintegrate can destroy up to a 10-foot cube. If the door is more than ten feet thick, how exactly are people going to open it?

[Telok]

The last deathtrap room I used was labeled as such and the PCs has instructions on how to bypass it. They triggered it just to see what it would do.

[Name1]

*stuff*

I guess I can see where you are coming from...
So... do you have no non-ToB idea of how to overcome the presented trap room?

[Gdesign95]

Two questions about your deathtrap.

Firstly, what's to stop the victims from simply teleporting out?

Secondly, just how big is the door? You said you expect it to require multiple castings of disintegrate to destroy it, but disintegrate can destroy up to a 10-foot cube. If the door is more than ten feet thick, how exactly are people going to open it?

first forbiddance to stop Teleports

second the "Door" is not meant to be opened it is a trap after all. however the more accurate way of putting it is that this would be something where you make them not want to cast that spell for fear of the consequences, hence prismatic spray trap triggered upon casting a spell. as for the entrance way door that is something that would need more thought put into it as the version I used was meant to be escaped while this version is meant to kill so I would have to re work everything and I don't feel like doing the hard numbers so I just presented my original Idea along with some ways it could be made truly deadly.

all I can say is rework this and it would truly be deadly as the normal version (hall way with two iron doors plus the vacuum and illusion) nearly killed my players and I hadn't intended it to.

[Deophaun]

honestly save or die only is guaranteed to work if it increases constantly and is not something they realize is happening
Which they should realize is happening as soon as you ask them to make a saving throw. Not asking is akin to rolling a d6 every round and not telling the players they took damage until they drop to 0: poor form.

give them a reason to believe they need to breach the door non-magically and you guarantee death. maybe add a spell detection system that will trigger a prismatic spray each time they try magic.
The entire trap room is defeated by a rogue with a decent Search check (unless, of course, you just set the DC arbitrarily high, in which case this is just one step removed from "rocks fall, everyone dies," course that seems to be the point of this discussion), or someone with arcane sight up. Or even detect magic.

I'm not sure how an "illusion of air" actually would work. That an illusion can't fill your lungs would be a dead giveaway.

[Extra Anchovies]

I guess I can see where you are coming from...
So... do you have no non-ToB idea of how to overcome the presented trap room?

If you think Invoke Magic bypasses Antimagic Field but not Globe of Invulnerability, the I think you are a silly silly person :smallbiggrin:

But other than Invoke Magic -> Stone Shape and the ToB teleports, I've got nothing.

Out of curiosity, how are people going to be moved into the room?

[Jowgen]

If you think Invoke Magic bypasses Antimagic Field but not Globe of Invulnerability, the I think you are a silly silly person :smallbiggrin:

You'll have to call me Cheese Sandwich then :smalltongue: Invoke Magic allows magic to function in areas "where magic cannot normally function" (as opposed to function normally). Sigils of Suppression's Globe doesn't prevent magic from functioning, it only excludes Spells and SLA's of specific levels.

Su abilities, magic arms and armor, wondrous items that don't specifically duplicate spells, Invocations, and whatever other magic stuff that specifically isn't a cast spell of SLA of the specific level still works in a globe. Magic in itself works fine in the globe, so by RAW Invoke Magic need not apply.

You can obviously make a RAI argument that GoI is just a weaker version of AMF and should thus be overcome the same, but by the same token, one can make the RAI argument that Invoke Magic only has a limited ability to push back anti-magic properties (limiting to max 4th level), and adding Sigils of Suppression to the Antimagic Sigil's gives them enough oomph to compensate for that.


Out of curiosity, how are people going to be moved into the room?

That is meant to be the people-in-question's problem. The room exists either as a deadly decoy (one of many ideally) for another (less deadly) room that enemy people might want to get into, or just a indestructable McGuffin storage device.

The only thing I'm personally aware off that can infiltrate the room is Wish, and Wish-equivalent abilities.

The point is that it's nigh impossbile to make something that is truly impossible to get into. To address that, the room is meant to instead be something you can't get out off once you're in.

[Gdesign95]

Which they should realize is happening as soon as you ask them to make a saving throw. Not asking is akin to rolling a d6 every round and not telling the players they took damage until they drop to 0: poor form.

The entire trap room is defeated by a rogue with a decent Search check (unless, of course, you just set the DC arbitrarily high, in which case this is just one step removed from "rocks fall, everyone dies," course that seems to be the point of this discussion), or someone with arcane sight up. Or even detect magic.

I'm not sure how an "illusion of air" actually would work. That an illusion can't fill your lungs would be a dead giveaway.

the "Door" looks like it will open if the puzzle is solved just give them a seemingly solvable yet actually imposible puzze and there you go also the entire room is filled with all kinds of magic traps to make trying to find one in specific impossible. also the illusion is that there is air in the room remember there are real ways of having someone suffocate due to lack of oxygen while they still think they can breath (pure nitrogen) which is frightening in it's own way. plus while somebody might detect the illusion magic they still wouldn't know what the illusion is and if you were to realize there would still be the little issue of no sound without air :) preventing communication of the issue (stack magical silence to make it seem like magic is the cause for that.

also as to the realization this is what secret rolls are for roll the dice without telling them why and they will panic and panic prevents clear thinking which is the major way to beat a deathtrap. as to this being poor form yeah it is but that's why I didn't make mine truly lethal, however I could see the potential for it to be made deadly and so posted the idea here. I didn't expect any interest nor for it to be taken this seriously, I just thought I would post a fun if kind of cruel trap into a thread about making a "rocks fall everyone dies" style trap. I know there are counters but that is kind of to be expected even a sphere of annihilation can be avoided. it is very difficult to make a true death trap, but I am glad you found my idea intriguing enough to chat about and help to point out some flaws I forgot about or some things about the design I overlooked when posting the initial concept here.

in my game I had players who realized quickly the issue and then quickly went about bashing the freaking door down as fast as they could. they made it out with only 1 person falling unconscious and realized that this person who they thought was an idiot (how he acted) was actually more cunning than anyone realized. that set them on edge and made the rest of the adventure more interesting. it wasn't intended to kill them ( by that point they were all on fumes and if they all passed out he would have opened the far door (again unable to be opened by them) and taken them prisoner) they solved the challenge however and made it out with a greater understanding of what they were up against

if you want to take the idea and refine it go ahead I am not versed in making traps to the degree you are so feel free to make this trap truly a PC Killer.

[Deophaun]

also the illusion is that there is air in the room remember there are real ways of having someone suffocate due to lack of oxygen while they still think they can breath (pure nitrogen) which is frightening in it's own way.
Nitrogen is a gas. As such, it responds as a gas. It can fill your lungs. An illusion is nothing. It cannot. If you think it's possible to confuse breathing nitrogen with breathing nothing, you have never had the wind knocked out of you. Believe me, one will make you light headed before passing out and suffocating, and the other one is an almost nightmarish experience that you're never quite ready for even when you know it's coming. One happens because you are breathing the wrong air. The other happens because you are breathing no air.

plus while somebody might detect the illusion magic they still wouldn't know what the illusion is and if you were to realize there would still be the little issue of no sound without air :) preventing communication of the issue (stack magical silence to make it seem like magic is the cause for that.
I see. And what is preventing them from realizing the water in their eyes is boiling?

You are literally better off actually filling the room entirely with Nitrogen or CO2. Not only does that work without allowing magic detection, but there's no RAW issues as to whether it's even possible.

also as to the realization this is what secret rolls are for
No. No this is not what they are for. They are being attacked by the room. You don't roll secretly for attacks.

[Efrate]

Could someone with EX flight, or really good fort/shenanigans, and an ocular spell AMF thats persisted care? Your own AMF cancels the disjunction (maybe), and the globe, then you shadow jaunt/invoke out or something similar.

Im not sold on the IHS argument either, but its IHS so...

[Anthrowhale]

Another way to escape the room is to use Iajutsu Master 5 to power through the hardness.

Something like a Witch Hunter 1/Akodo Champion 2/Iajutsu Master 5/Fighter 13 with Steadfast Determination and Power Attack optimizing charisma using a two-handed sword can deliver an expected 176.5 / 2(for objects) = 88 damage. That's close enough to 92, that random deviations will cause some damage and the fortitude save is significantly higher than 24 even without magic. It will take awhile, but the outcome is clear.