Boosted Darkness and/or Daylight

[Dalebert]

I'm starting this thread to discuss casting Darkness or Daylight at a higher level and what ramifications that might have. I asked about it in the Simple RAW thread but the discussion it inspired made it clear it's going beyond simple.


Q 537 If you cast Darkness with a 4th level slot, would a standard Daylight spell fail to dispel it?

I felt pretty confident that the answer was "yes" but I asked because I thought it might be worth noting for other forum readers. I still think the answer is that it would fail to dispel it. Here's why.

Darkness says it dispels light spells of 2nd level or lower. Daylight says it dispels darkness spells of 3rd level or lower. There's no addendum that says the spells behave differently when cast with a higher slot so they don't. In other words, casting Darkness with a 4th level slot will not cause it to dispel 4th level light spells.

HOWEVER, it's still a 4th level spell. There's a general rule (somewhere) that a spell cast with an Xth level slot is an Xth level spell. If you cast Dispel Magic on a 4th level Darkness spell, it wouldn't automatically be dispelled unless Dispel Magic was cast with a 4th level slot as well. By the same reasoning, Daylight's power to dispel darkness spells of 3rd level or lower would not apply.

[Plaguescarred]

I'm starting this thread to discuss casting Darkness or Daylight at a higher level and what ramifications that might have. I asked about it in the Simple RAW thread but the discussion it inspired made it clear it's going beyond simple.



I felt pretty confident that the answer was "yes" but I asked because I thought it might be worth noting for other forum readers. I still think the answer is that it would fail to dispel it. Here's why.

Darkness says it dispels light spells of 2nd level or lower. Daylight says it dispels darkness spells of 3rd level or lower. There's no addendum that says the spells behave differently when cast with a higher slot so they don't. In other words, casting Darkness with a 4th level slot will not cause it to dispel 4th level light spells.

HOWEVER, it's still a 4th level spell. There's a general rule (somewhere) that a spell cast with an Xth level slot is an Xth level spell. If you cast Dispel Magic on a 4th level Darkness spell, it wouldn't automatically be dispelled unless Dispel Magic was cast with a 4th level slot as well. By the same reasoning, Daylight's power to dispel darkness spells of 3rd level or lower would not apply.A darkness wouldn't dispel a daylight. Here's a Sage Advice;

Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light? No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used.

[Millstone85]

There's a general rule (somewhere) that a spell cast with an Xth level slot is an Xth level spell.Like I said in the simple RAW thread, it is on page 201 of the PHB.
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.This is indeed the general rule. Some spells having additional effects when cast at a higher level is explained after that.


A darkness wouldn't dispel a daylight.And a daylight wouldn't dispel a darkness if the latter was cast with a 4th level spell slot.

This is only about the spells themselves, though. Neither "torch" would permanently extinguish the other.

But the magical light created by daylight would win against the magical darkness created by darkness, when and where the areas would overlap. It is said in the description of darkness that...
A creature with darkvision can't see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it.

[Plaguescarred]

A creature with darkvision can't see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it.

That's why i think daylight should illuminate darkness if none can dispel each other.

[Millstone85]

To be extra clear, I made a diagram of what I think happens when these spells meet.

http://i.imgur.com/sYqDTsn.png

It is not to scale, as the total area of daylight is eight times larger than that of darkness.

[Plaguescarred]

To be extra clear, I made a diagram of what I think happens when these spells meet.Damn Millstone you rock!

[Millstone85]

Now I wonder if it would have been more interesting if they didn't go with that dispelling mechanic and instead wrote something like "This darkness can only be illuminated with an area of bright light created by a spell cast at a higher level than this one" / "This light can only be obscured with an area of darkness created by a spell cast at a higher level than this one". Ties could have been resolved with dim light.

[Plaguescarred]

Yeah having the light source be diminished where overlapping would make sense in such case

[Dalebert]

A darkness wouldn't dispel a daylight.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post to say that. I already said that. My only point was that a 4th or higher Darkness would not be dispelled by Daylight.


But the magical light created by daylight would win against the magical darkness created by darkness, when and where the areas would overlap. It is said in the description of darkness that...

I hadn't caught that! Good point. So it would be similar to an antimagic shell--suppressing the darkness but not dispelling it. It would come back once the Daylight was gone.

I kinda feel like I should houserule that the higher level Darkness "wins" but I kinda don't feel that way. I feel like Daylight should be a pretty powerful effect for a spell that does nothing but create light, and it's not even actual sunlight as many believe so maybe it should just always overcome magical Darkness. Daylight is a great spell for those lacking darkvision since it basically removes the advantage of creatures even with 120 ft darkvision.

[Plaguescarred]

I'm not sure why you quoted my post to say that. I already said that. My only point was that a 4th or higher Darkness would not be dispelled by Daylight.Oh i just wanted to say that was a Sage Advice also confirming this.

[Millstone85]

So it would be similar to an antimagic shell--suppressing the darkness but not dispelling it. It would come back once the Daylight was gone.That's my understanding, yes. It would also be similar to regular old light versus mundane darkness.


I kinda feel like I should houserule that the higher level Darkness "wins" but I kinda don't feel that way. I feel like Daylight should be a pretty powerful effect for a spell that does nothing but create lightI hadn't looked at it from that angle. Yeah, true.


it's not even actual sunlight as many believeWell, it is pretty lame that a spell called daylight can't burn vampires.