Ironbending in the Playground: Fitness and Exercise

[AMFV]

Howdy Folks!

I noticed that we don't have a thread here to talk about fitness and exercise, and since picking heavy things up and putting them down is a big part of what I like to do. I figured I'd try and start one. Especially since I feel like I could use some support since I'm coming back to lifting after a pretty nasty hamstring tear that had me sitting out from the gym for about five or six months. And now I'm back and back to lifting heavy again, which is absolutely miserable.

In any case in the thread we can talk about our fitness goals, achievements, things we're particularly proud of. Look for encouragement and advice. Basically it's the general thread for bending barbells and whatever else there is to fitness. Things to keep in mind: Don't be judging on other people, there's a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and everybody's fitness is different. Try to remember to post something you're proud of fitness-wise as often as you can, that'll help you think of things that you're proud of in your fitness.

In any case. As I said I'm back to heavier lifting. My current goals are to gain strength and size, try to get as big as possible for the next few months. Since I'm not in great cardio shape I decided to focus that direction instead of the other direction, whilst I get my cardio back up. I'm also focusing on improving my run speed and what-not while I've got a massive caloric surplus to do so.

What I'm currently proud of is that on Sunday, I finished my first leg workout since the injury. Now my big lifts are down a bit (like 200 lbs in some cases), I'm squatting less than 400 now, which is awful. But I was still able to truck through the leg workout and hopefully my squats and leg exercises will start to get back up to decent numbers soon!

[Corlindale]

Sorry to hear about your injury, but it's good that you're starting to get back into things. I know very little about lifting, but even your current numbers certainly sound impressive to me.

I don't lift, but my running is going amazingly well right now, better than it's been in years. I think it's the combination of coming back from Greenland to the much friendlier climate in Denmark and working part-time instead of full time.

I signed up for my second half-marathon next June. Last time (2013) it didn't go super well. I did finish, but my stomach started hurting near the end (possible due to me mistakenly grabbing some weird sugary energy concoction instead of water from the drinking booth, which I really wasn't used to drinking) and I had to slow to walking pace for a few km. This time I hope to get below 2 hours!

I just started my half-marathon training program last week, after reaching my previous goal of getting back up to 10 k. It's a 3 month program, but since there's more than twice as much time before the race, I figure I have a lot of extra time to really work on my speed and endurance beforehand.

I know I ought to incorporate some strength training into my routine as well (especially core and upper body, my legs are doing pretty well), but I just never found that as engaging as running. There's actually a really nice, free, outdoor gym right by the forest where almost all of my runs start or end, so I really have no excuse not to get started on this.

[AMFV]

Sorry to hear about your injury, but it's good that you're starting to get back into things. I know very little about lifting, but even your current numbers certainly sound impressive to me.


Well it's mostly a comparing them to previous numbers thing that really has me down. It's pretty much an across the board drop. But they'll get back up quickly. I think the same thing is true of running, at least in my somewhat limited experience. But it's still pretty rough to look at the weights and have trouble with lower weights.



I signed up for my second half-marathon next June. Last time (2013) it didn't go super well. I did finish, but my stomach started hurting near the end (possible due to me mistakenly grabbing some weird sugary energy concoction instead of water from the drinking booth, which I really wasn't used to drinking) and I had to slow to walking pace for a few km. This time I hope to get below 2 hours!

That's awesome! I would think that's definitely attainable, especially if it was something like that. That's like a misload effectively. Cause you spend all the same effort and then it's just screwed by something that's mostly out of your control.



I know I ought to incorporate some strength training into my routine as well (especially core and upper body, my legs are doing pretty well), but I just never found that as engaging as running. There's actually a really nice, free, outdoor gym right by the forest where almost all of my runs start or end, so I really have no excuse not to get started on this.

Something that always helps that I've seen is if you set up for goals. Like a lot of people when they start lifting, they don't have specific goal in mind, and so it just kind of peters out. But like try for something competitive or something small and that really helps with motivation. Or at least that helps me, because I'm working towards something specific.

[MrZJunior]

I was supposed to ride my first century, a one hundred mile bike ride, with my father this weekend. Unfortunately, one of the roads along the course collapsed in heavy rain a couple of weeks ago so it has been truncated to seventy four miles. Still I've only ridden fifty miles before, so it will be a new personal best. My dad and I figure we'll just have to do a century of our own.

Biking is really the only form of exercise I can get myself to do on a regular basis. I like to ride to destinations like a particular restaurant or landmark, going a long distance is fun, but I've never bothered to time myself. I also commute by bike, so it provides some daily exercise as well.

[AMFV]

I was supposed to ride my first century, a one hundred mile bike ride, with my father this weekend. Unfortunately, one of the roads along the course collapsed in heavy rain a couple of weeks ago so it has been truncated to seventy four miles. Still I've only ridden fifty miles before, so it will be a new personal best. My dad and I figure we'll just have to do a century of our own.

Seventy-Four miles seems like quite enough miles to me! That's very impressive. Is that a one-day distance or do you normally spread it over a couple days? That sounds like a really impressive number for a one-day trip to me at least, although I don't know that much about biking.

Also in unrelated news I have a bit of a bragpost I'm back over 400 for squats. I did 405 for four today, so I'm working my way back up to decent numbers. I had about the best legs day I've had since last weeks'. I even got the shakes afterwards and the general weakness, so I know I've worked my CNS decently as well as my muscles. But it's a little getting used to.

Also tomorrow is shoulders, I've just discovered that the gym has an axle-bar, so I'm completely excited about getting to use that monster some. Definitely good for building my grip back up. It's basically like a regular bar except it's much wider (roughly the same width as the weight collar on a standard bar),

[JustSomeGuy]

Always good to be 4 wheelin', nice benchmark

[MrZJunior]

Seventy-Four miles seems like quite enough miles to me! That's very impressive. Is that a one-day distance or do you normally spread it over a couple days? That sounds like a really impressive number for a one-day trip to me at least, although I don't know that much about biking.



It's all in one day, it would take us about six hours to complete the full hundred. It's much easier to bike during this time of year because it's not so hot out.

[valadil]

My bench PR is higher than my squat. I can't tell if this should be a source of pride or shame.

[AMFV]

Always good to be 4 wheelin', nice benchmark

Thanks, man! Although now I don't want to get my squat too much higher cause it won't make sense again till I hit six plates, which is about the most I've ever done, so getting back to that will be an achievement.


It's all in one day, it would take us about six hours to complete the full hundred. It's much easier to bike during this time of year because it's not so hot out.

Sounds grueling none-the-less. That's a pretty quick pace, no? I'd certainly be impressed!


My bench PR is higher than my squat. I can't tell if this should be a source of pride or shame.

It depends on if it's from not working on your squat or if it's from overworking on your bench. To be fair a lot of people are built differently in a lot of ways. Some Powerlifters (especially the real big folk) have a bench total that approaches their deadlift total some of the time. Although that's mostly a really impressive bench total rather than a low deadlift total.

[MrZJunior]

Sounds grueling none-the-less. That's a pretty quick pace, no? I'd certainly be impressed!


I felt great afterwards, like I could go another twenty or thirty miles. It's a pretty good pace, especially sustaining it over the whole ride.

[Frozen_Feet]

This year hasn't been good for me. I just got to benchpressing my own weight and deadlifting twice as much at the end of last year, then I was hit with illness and my results dropped by 5 and 20 kg. I managed to get back to shape by midsummer and even increased my benchpress by 5 kg from what it was at the end of last year, but all the work got undone by a month-long summer vacation for no easily discernible reason and I'm back to struggling to bench my bodyweight once. To add insult to injury, my bro's followed pretty much the same training regime but increased his results by 10 kg in the same time, and probably will get to +20 kg by end of the year. I'm examining my diet to see if I can do something on that front. One thing I have to do is increase my overall energy intake by ~700 kcal.

[valadil]

It depends on if it's from not working on your squat or if it's from overworking on your bench. To be fair a lot of people are built differently in a lot of ways. Some Powerlifters (especially the real big folk) have a bench total that approaches their deadlift total some of the time. Although that's mostly a really impressive bench total rather than a low deadlift total.

It's not that I haven't been working my squat. It's that I've had a *lot* of mobility issues with it. My hips, knees, ankles, and hamstrings were all too tight and it's taken years to get them to the point where I can even hit parallel. Like, I started lifting in 2009 and only felt like I could hit parallel every squat day in the last year. Bench on the other hand came pretty naturally, so it's had a lot more time to advance.

That said, bench has tapered off. It's been stuck at 315 for a while, but my squat's up to 295. Maybe it'll catch up by the end of the year?

[AMFV]

I felt great afterwards, like I could go another twenty or thirty miles. It's a pretty good pace, especially sustaining it over the whole ride.

That is awesome! That's a feeling I don't really get with my sort of workouts, I mostly feel completely spent at the end, which is also a good feeling, but there's no like runner's high or what-not where you feel like you could go on forever, it's all just pain and soreness. Which to be fair is what I enjoy, but I can definitely understand the appeal of the other.


This year hasn't been good for me. I just got to benchpressing my own weight and deadlifting twice as much at the end of last year, then I was hit with illness and my results dropped by 5 and 20 kg. I managed to get back to shape by midsummer and even increased my benchpress by 5 kg from what it was at the end of last year, but all the work got undone by a month-long summer vacation for no easily discernible reason and I'm back to struggling to bench my bodyweight once. To add insult to injury, my bro's followed pretty much the same training regime but increased his results by 10 kg in the same time, and probably will get to +20 kg by end of the year. I'm examining my diet to see if I can do something on that front. One thing I have to do is increase my overall energy intake by ~700 kcal.

Well, you've had two periods of inactivity, that'll do it, at least in my experience. Although if you're trying to get stronger upping your calories probably wouldn't hurt anything, or so I've found. I'm sure you'll get back though, it's almost always easier to get back what you've lost than it is to get it in the first place, at least for me.


It's not that I haven't been working my squat. It's that I've had a *lot* of mobility issues with it. My hips, knees, ankles, and hamstrings were all too tight and it's taken years to get them to the point where I can even hit parallel. Like, I started lifting in 2009 and only felt like I could hit parallel every squat day in the last year. Bench on the other hand came pretty naturally, so it's had a lot more time to advance.

That said, bench has tapered off. It's been stuck at 315 for a while, but my squat's up to 295. Maybe it'll catch up by the end of the year?

It's probably just your biomechanics then. Some people are made to be good at bench, and others to be good at squat. It's why a lot of times you'll see the world record powerlifting folks with one number that's disproportionately high compared to the others. Like take Pete Rubbish for example (also the best YouTube motivation I have is watching his progression video, where he shows his advancement over years), amazing Deadlifter, not an amazing benchpress (although certainly not a low bench press, just not in the same ballpark as his outstanding deadlift. Everybody has different strengths, as long as your squat doesn't stall out completely... and it's not like 295 is a bad number there, I wouldn't stress it, just focus on the things that you're best at, and then try and get those as impressive as possible.

Edit:


I'm getting most of my strength training from bodyweight/gymnastic style movements at the moment with a bit of kettlebell work on the side. I enjoy barbell work but can't really afford a gym membership right now, so I go outside, set my rings up on a tree branch and throw my body around. Pistol squats for legs. Bodyline holds and kettlebell swings for core. Ring dips, pull-ups, muscle-ups and handstand press-ups for upper body. It's really invigorating, and good to know my "gym" is always with me.

Almost missed this one, sorry! That sort of training is definitely really awesome, if you get a fairly cheap dip belt or weight belt you can add weight to a lot of those movements and that'll let you work at a lower rep range with higher weight, basically giving you a lot of the advantages that you'd get from the gym without needing it. It is definitely a good way to keep your workouts up when you travel though.

[JustSomeGuy]

This year hasn't been good for me...


I'd go as far as saying that a good 95% of lifting usually involves retreading old ground for various reasons, i wouldn't sweat it, especially since you're actually not far off your best (look at dropping from a 600lbs squat to under 400lbs for clarity there!)

I'm sure someone smart once said the definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting the same results (they were deffo talking training there btw)




That said, bench has tapered off. It's been stuck at 315 for a while, but my squat's up to 295. Maybe it'll catch up by the end of the year?

295 is sooo close to 315, and if it's the structural business that's been holding you back, chances are once you get going the tissues that actually do the moving will go way past there. Nice target though, good luck!

[WarKitty]

So perhaps some of you could offer some advice to someone who just wants to get into at-home weightlifting (so no machines). What sort of exercises should I look into? And how do I determine how heavy a weight to buy?

[AMFV]

So perhaps some of you could offer some advice to someone who just wants to get into at-home weightlifting (so no machines). What sort of exercises should I look into? And how do I determine how heavy a weight to buy?

Well when you're just starting out most programs are going to be about the same. You're going to be getting familiar with the basic movements of the lifts, so any program is pretty good to start. What kinds of weights you want to buy depends more on your budget and your eventual goals than anything else. What do you want to get out of the weight lifting? What are your goals? What's your budget?

[WarKitty]

Well when you're just starting out most programs are going to be about the same. You're going to be getting familiar with the basic movements of the lifts, so any program is pretty good to start. What kinds of weights you want to buy depends more on your budget and your eventual goals than anything else. What do you want to get out of the weight lifting? What are your goals? What's your budget?

Budget is...low, frankly. I was looking to buy free weights, but I don't know what size weights I should start out with. Mom keeps telling me to start with the 1 and 2 pound ones, but that doesn't seem right for what I want.

I'm looking for a basic overall strength training. I am looking for something that's proper strength training and not cardio - as in, I'm looking to increase how much I can lift and move and how long I can lift it. I hope that makes sense.

[AMFV]

Budget is...low, frankly. I was looking to buy free weights, but I don't know what size weights I should start out with. Mom keeps telling me to start with the 1 and 2 pound ones, but that doesn't seem right for what I want.

I'm looking for a basic overall strength training. I am looking for something that's proper strength training and not cardio - as in, I'm looking to increase how much I can lift and move and how long I can lift it. I hope that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense. 1 or 2 lb weights are essentially almost completely useless for your purpose even at the very novice level. That's like weights to help with cardio or weights to help with rehabilitation. Well again like exactly what your goals are is important here, with strength training barbells are often superior to dumbbells although dumbbells can very useful for accessory movements, you'll outgrow most dumbbells in your main movements fairly quickly even as a beginner. Or at least outgrow the dumbbells you have at home. I might try and find a fairly cheap adjustable dumbbell or a set price for a few; that would be good, you'll want probably at least 50 lbs, but you'll also need lower than that. It's a tricky situation to be sure.

Also while you're starting out you can do at least some movements with objects you have around that you know the weight of, it gets trickier when you have heavier loads, but with 50 and under you can often find household objects that will function as the weights. This will give you a bit of experience with odd loads and some grip training that will propel you further when you get into the gym, or when you buy a larger weight set.

As far as programs, at least at the beginning (4-8 weeks, possibly longer) I'd recommend Starting Strength or Stronglifts Just because they involve all the major lifts and don't involve a lot of thinking on your part as a starting lifter. Once you start to understand what you're best at and what you enjoy then you can play around with other programs till you find one you like. Then eventually, you'll be able to design your own. Basically the key is to pick a simple program and stick with it until you've got the knowledge to pick something more complex (or stick with something intermediate).

[FinnLassie]

After I started boxing I've been thinking about getting into bench pressing... And barbell squats. I've always found them rather intriguing. Not quite sure why. :smallconfused: Possibly because I really wanted to do *googles* shot putting when I was a teenager (only to later find out my mother used to do it when she was a teenager). That'd be a fun thing to try out as well if I ever get the chance... but most likely not where I live atm. Stinky ole town.

Likely to start this project next year, since I'm trying to manage with health, boxing, school and free time atm and I feel like getting into lifting would break me.

[AMFV]

Seconding the above, Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5 are great programs. Another alternative, look into Enter the Kettlebell by Pavel Tsatsouline. You can pick up a 16kg kettlebell pretty cheaply (about £30 or equivalent in your currency) and you'll learn a lot of fundamental movements and build a good foundation of strength for if you decided to move on to heavier barbell work.

Kettlebells are good for at home, my only worry would be that without a bar it doesn't really force you into the movements, and therefore can be trickier to learn how to do movements properly. This is very true of what's traditionally considered the big foundation movements, squatting with Kettlebells is more difficult and requires attentiveness to things that a bar will just force.

Also you have the problem that because of the way Kettlebells move it's a lot harder work to put your muscles to the same degree of strain, so you'll probably get stuck because of accessory muscles at point where you would be able to continue progressing with the bar or with dumbbells. They can be really useful for other things, but my theory is that you have to build a good base then start expanding into utility stuff, although that's my theory.


After I started boxing I've been thinking about getting into bench pressing... And barbell squats. I've always found them rather intriguing. Not quite sure why. :smallconfused: Possibly because I really wanted to do *googles* shot putting when I was a teenager (only to later find out my mother used to do it when she was a teenager). That'd be a fun thing to try out as well if I ever get the chance... but most likely not where I live atm. Stinky ole town.

Likely to start this project next year, since I'm trying to manage with health, boxing, school and free time atm and I feel like getting into lifting would break me.

Well the best part is that benching and squatting will help your boxing, at least to a point, when you'll start getting diminishing returns. It's also easier to find places to bench and squat than it is to find places to Shot Put, you could probably find a few powerlifting comps within your area, at least if you're willing to drive, certainly.

[WarKitty]

So it looks like I could buy mini dumbbell handles that you just put weight plates on. Has anyone ever worked with those? It would let me buy plates as I go.

[AMFV]

So it looks like I could buy mini dumbbell handles that you just put weight plates on. Has anyone ever worked with those? It would let me buy plates as I go.

They're okay, if you do something like that I would recommend getting an Olympic bar size cuff rather than a "Standard" one, the Oly one will be easier to find plates for and you can go up to a lot more weight comfortably than you could with a standard (although more than 25s on the side would probably be at best unwieldy. But you could probably get to quite a bit of weight that way.

That is probably a good way to get started though! At least with the very basics. I would get a set of a few different weights to start. So that way you can have a little bit of variation which you'll need for different exercises.

[Winter_Wolf]

I didn't think it at the time, but apparently I was a beast in high school. At least compared to twenty years later. High school wrestling saved my life, I bet. The combo of intense aerobic workouts and weight lifting shredded my body fat. We did the Bigger Faster Stronger program back then, don't know if it's even a thing anymore or what it might have evolved into. Strength gains were absurd those years, and only petered out when the new gym teacher dropped the program for something else.
It's painful to go from 1.7x your own body weight bench and 4x squats to less than a quarter of body weight and not able to do squats on free weights. The years haven't been kind, I guess. And the old injuries are all collecting with interest these days. Woo, old age! Said no one, ever. Except that one weird guy.

I still practice fighting arts and enjoy hiking and lifting, but I've passed the point of youth and speed in favor of the treachery and experience of old age, I guess. I win a lot more these days, though. Heehee. Teaching the occasional student some of my best dirty tricks keeps me on my toes at least; ne'er know when they'll try to test me. Too bad the last guy decided alcoholism and nasty hangovers was a better use of his time.

[AMFV]

I didn't think it at the time, but apparently I was a beast in high school. At least compared to twenty years later. High school wrestling saved my life, I bet. The combo of intense aerobic workouts and weight lifting shredded my body fat. We did the Bigger Faster Stronger program back then, don't know if it's even a thing anymore or what it might have evolved into. Strength gains were absurd those years, and only petered out when the new gym teacher dropped the program for something else.

Yeah, I wish that I'd had better knowledge about programming and periodization when I was in High School, all that testosterone and better programing would have probably done me wonders. Well it is what what is is! That does sound like a pretty awesome program though. I think that a lot of times kids get lost in the shuffle, the ones that don't do a lot of sports and they wind up not learning how to do physical working out.



It's painful to go from 1.7x your own body weight bench and 4x squats to less than a quarter of body weight and not able to do squats on free weights. The years haven't been kind, I guess. And the old injuries are all collecting with interest these days. Woo, old age! Said no one, ever. Except that one weird guy.

Well that's still impressive to be able to have done at one time. And to be fair as your body weight increases the amount of weight that people will be impressed by as a percentage decreases, which makes sense since strength doesn't increase proportionally with the muscles.




****

As for me, an update!

This week is my PR week, I do a periodization program where I work up to a PR or maximal effort set once every five weeks. We're about 75% through the PR week, which has been pretty good. Still nowhere near the numbers I'd like but at least getting to the numbers that are not horribly embarrassing for me.

So far this week, we've had squats, where I hit 2 for 455, which puts my estimated one-rep at around 480, which I'm pretty happy with. I also almost knocked over the power cage trying to put the dang weights up afterwards, so I may have to start weighing down the power-cage when I do squats, which is also a pretty nice milestone I feel. My goals for the next month as far as squatting goes: I'd like to be around 550 for my next max, that may be ambitious given that I'm slowly crawling back up to where I was, but with the current rate of improvement it seems possible, we'll see how everything goes after the deload week.

Monday was shoulders and overhead Axle Press, so far I'm around 160 as a max for the axle overhead clean and press. I don't know the exact weight, since I'm not sure on the weight of the axle itself (I would guess 20 lbs, it's a little lighter than an Oly bar). This was also done after a log press, since I'm building familiarity with that implement, unfortunately the only log they have in the gym weighs well over a hundred pounds, so it's no the best familiarity tool, at least not till I've worked up to that level of weight. Goals for next month is to be over 200 on the axle overhead clean and press, hopefully significantly so, although I'm not sure how that'll work since my shoulders tend to develop slowly, over 225 would be gravy.

Today was deadlifts and back. I pulled 445, I think I could possibly have ground out a second rep, but I'm not sure, it was pretty grindy and my CNS was pretty shot after that. Mostly I just wanted to see if I could lift the bar with 4 100s on it, since we have those, and I did. Goals for next month is to be over 500 lbs on a pull, which would be something I could actually be proud of. We'll see how that goes as well.

The only thing I have left is the Incline Bench (i prefer it to standard bench since it has more transference to the stuff that I care about, the stuff in my sport). So that'll be interesting to see. I have no idea where I'm actually going to peak at that, last time I was doing reps for volume I was around 225, so we'll probably try for 285 or so, but we'll see.

In any case, this puts me technically into the 1,000 lb club (or will unless I get less than 90 lbs on Friday), which I guess is cool, although for a dude my size it's not that big an achievement, but I'll take it until I get some achievements that I'm more happy with again. Anyways that's what's going on with me.

[WarKitty]

So does anyone know of any good books, preferably by people with some credentials, on beginning weightlifting? I'm honestly fine looking things up on the internet but my mother's going to have a fit that I'll hurt myself if I don't start out with 1lb weights unless I can show her something more official looking.

[AMFV]

So does anyone know of any good books, preferably by people with some credentials, on beginning weightlifting? I'm honestly fine looking things up on the internet but my mother's going to have a fit that I'll hurt myself if I don't start out with 1lb weights unless I can show her something more official looking.

Starting Strength by Mark Rippletoe is the standard. But basically ANY book about weightlifting training will have you starting with heavier weights. So find one with a program you like and then point that out to her.

[valadil]

Starting Strength by Mark Rippletoe is the standard. But basically ANY book about weightlifting training will have you starting with heavier weights. So find one with a program you like and then point that out to her.

Seconding SS. I'm pretty sure Rippetoe states that anything below 10 lbs shouldn't even be called a weight.

[Grinner]

What constitutes a rest day? I've been reading some beginner's articles, and one of them asserts that not resting enough will actually cause muscle loss.

I'm asking because I've started getting back into martial arts, and some additional muscle mass would be very helpful. The beginner's plan I've been considering asks for three days a week. With two classes a week, I can easily fit in weightlifting on the off days, but I'm concerned that might be too much to be effective, even with dietary supplements. The class itself isn't incredibly strenuous, but it's still an hour or so of regular physical activity.

[Grinner]

Yeah mate that shouldn't be a problem at all. Rest in this case means don't overload a muscle group on subsequent days, but doing different types of exercise on subsequent days is usually fine.

Cool. Thanks for the information.

[AMFV]

What constitutes a rest day? I've been reading some beginner's articles, and one of them asserts that not resting enough will actually cause muscle loss.

You'd have to do A LOT of working out to get muscle loss from not resting sufficiently, like marathons back to back without any rest period. Now what can happen is that you won't get as much development as you would get if you had rested more. Generally as a beginner you need a lot less rest than you would as a more experienced lifter actually. For example when I was squatting two plates, I could probably have squatted 5 days a week and not actually had any problem or slowed my progression that much. Now, my legs day requires basically an entire week to rest, and once every four weeks I have to take a week where I do practically no heavy lifting at all. So rest is a lot dependent on where you are personally.



I'm asking because I've started getting back into martial arts, and some additional muscle mass would be very helpful. The beginner's plan I've been considering asks for three days a week. With two classes a week, I can easily fit in weightlifting on the off days, but I'm concerned that might be too much to be effective, even with dietary supplements. The class itself isn't incredibly strenuous, but it's still an hour or so of regular physical activity.

You can almost definitely do that. Typically from what my own experience is, Martial Arts training isn't going to be the same kind of training as weightlifting and so you'll be able to avoid being too exhausted (at least at the beginning) because they're different. Now there will come a time when they start interfering with each other, once you've progressed sufficiently. So what I would do is plan what's more important to you. Then develop your resting accordingly, if you're too tired to get as much as possible out of the one that's more important, pull back a little on the other. A lot of training is just listening to your body and figuring out what works for you. Everybody will need different amounts of rest, and some people can recover from certain things more quickly.

I would just try weightlifting on your off-days, see if it affects you negatively in Martial Arts, and then if it's a small negative, figure out if that's worth the advantages that extra muscle mass will bring (and remember that you'll hit diminishing returns on that at some point).

[Grinner]

You can almost definitely do that. Typically from what my own experience is, Martial Arts training isn't going to be the same kind of training as weightlifting and so you'll be able to avoid being too exhausted (at least at the beginning) because they're different. Now there will come a time when they start interfering with each other, once you've progressed sufficiently. So what I would do is plan what's more important to you. Then develop your resting accordingly, if you're too tired to get as much as possible out of the one that's more important, pull back a little on the other. A lot of training is just listening to your body and figuring out what works for you. Everybody will need different amounts of rest, and some people can recover from certain things more quickly.

I would just try weightlifting on your off-days, see if it affects you negatively in Martial Arts, and then if it's a small negative, figure out if that's worth the advantages that extra muscle mass will bring (and remember that you'll hit diminishing returns on that at some point).

Okay. On the topic of progressing though, once I hit a point where I'm comfortable maintaining rather than pushing for further gains, how should I maintain muscle? Do I just stay at whatever I would then currently be doing?

In other news, the first day went well, although I'm realizing now that I should have stretched beforehand.

[AMFV]

Okay. On the topic of progressing though, once I hit a point where I'm comfortable maintaining rather than pushing for further gains, how should I maintain muscle? Do I just stay at whatever I would then currently be doing.

To quote Dorian Yates, "What put the muscle on, will keep the muscle on." Maintenance is best done by holding the same thing without significantly increasing the weights. I'd continue to try to progress even still just really slowly.

[Winter_Wolf]

Riddle me this, since I'm kind of stuck: how to stop putting on bulk and just get more strength? Or at least better definition without getting bigger. I put on muscle size a lot faster than I think is useful for my needs, and I don't fancy upgrading my wardrobe. My thighs are already making buying jeans a bother and trousers a ridiculous chore. My biceps aren't a priority but apparently the isometric resistance of holding two small children so much is enough to trigger muscle growth. They're actually quite big enough and any more they're going to be obviously disproportionate to pretty much everything on the uppers.

I ain't bragging, I have several nice collared shirts that u can't wear because the arm holes (and only the arm holes) are too tight.

[valadil]

Riddle me this, since I'm kind of stuck: how to stop putting on bulk and just get more strength?

That's hard to answer without know what you're currently doing. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say you're doing a bodybuilder routine but would be better off with a powerlifting one. That's a total shot in the dark though.

[Winter_Wolf]

That's hard to answer without know what you're currently doing. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say you're doing a bodybuilder routine but would be better off with a powerlifting one. That's a total shot in the dark though.

Typically 8-12 reps for two to four sets. In the case of biceps generally three sets of 10 reps, moderate weight. Likewise for thighs--can't do squats anymore so I gotta use the machines to avoid blowing out a knee. I do once a week on uppers, once on lower, and once or twice a week on back and an groups. Try to get compound movements more than isolated exercises.

My diet isn't specifically different, proportionately the same ratios of protein-lipids-carbs as normal, but I actually tend to eat less because lifting is a better channel for dealing with frustration and boredom than snacking ever was. Unless my doctor has been lying to me and my thyroid meds are actually anabolic steroids, I don't supplement and my testosterone always comes back "normal" from my medical examinations.

[AMFV]

Riddle me this, since I'm kind of stuck: how to stop putting on bulk and just get more strength? Or at least better definition without getting bigger. I put on muscle size a lot faster than I think is useful for my needs, and I don't fancy upgrading my wardrobe. My thighs are already making buying jeans a bother and trousers a ridiculous chore. My biceps aren't a priority but apparently the isometric resistance of holding two small children so much is enough to trigger muscle growth. They're actually quite big enough and any more they're going to be obviously disproportionate to pretty much everything on the uppers.

I ain't bragging, I have several nice collared shirts that u can't wear because the arm holes (and only the arm holes) are too tight.

Well, the main thing to remember is that your muscles have two kinds of adaptations to something that's heavier than they like. Either your CNS system can adapt and recruit more muscle fibers, or your musculature will tear and then build additional muscle fibers (if you have sufficient calories to the task). Now you have two separate things you're discussing. Definition without additional size, and additional strength without additional size.

For the definition. What most people class as "definition" is really all about body-fat percentage. So the only real way to get better definition without gaining size (thus shifting the percentage towards muscle), is to lose fat. Losing fat will improve your definition and will actually make you look bigger relatively. And then if you're at a caloric deficit you'll definitely not be able to put on any more muscle.

For the strength. What you're wanting is to focus more on your CNS development, that basically would involve focusing on single rep and 2-3 rep max sets, you want your nervous system exhausted but not your muscles. Look at how Oly Lifters train, one set, then about 5-6 minutes of rest, then another, for a fairly short period, with the focus being on lifting the maximum amount possible. This is very gruelling though and will result in headaches and potentially getting the "shakes" later. But you'll get stronger without significant increase in size.

The other option that you've not mentioned would be to focus more on your other upper body muscles and exclude biceps, so that way you develop proportionately. If you gain muscle really easily that might be easier than the other two options I discussed above, although you'd still have the wardrobe issue.

[TheFallenSon86]

I want to sure a a small personal triumph as far as fitness goes. 4 years ago I was a Sergeant in the United States Army, I was in fantastic shape, a trained and proficient warrior. I was an avid runner and lifter. During the summer of 2012 I was wounded in combat and put in a wheelchair. I suffered several compound fractures to my limbs and a severe head injury. I was physically unable to workout for nearly 2 years. I was medically retired, my injuries making me unfit for service. It has taken me the last two years to get to where I am today.

This morning I walked my children to school, a 6 mile round trip...I do this trip three times a day...so 18 miles each day. I've been doing this for the last two months. I feel fantastic...and am now looking at getting back into lifting.

My issues being that I underwent several reconstructive surgeries on my arms and legs...and I have been afraid to do more than body weight exercises for a long time now. It is terrifying.

[Winter_Wolf]

Sounds like what I want is more CNS development, then. I need to look into that more. And probably just cutting out biceps completely. Well officially, anyway. Nothing to be done about holding the kids.

Not too worried about shakes, as I've gotten shakes from most of my intense sessions in martial arts training anyway. I push pretty hard, but at least the recovery is quick.

[TheFallenSon86]

Sounds like what I want is more CNS development, then. I need to look into that more. And probably just cutting out biceps completely. Well officially, anyway. Nothing to be done about holding the kids.

Not too worried about shakes, as I've gotten shakes from most of my intense sessions in martial arts training anyway. I push pretty hard, but at least the recovery is quick.

You gotta crush it brother!

[AMFV]

I want to sure a a small personal triumph as far as fitness goes. 4 years ago I was a Sergeant in the United States Army, I was in fantastic shape, a trained and proficient warrior. I was an avid runner and lifter. During the summer of 2012 I was wounded in combat and put in a wheelchair. I suffered several compound fractures to my limbs and a severe head injury. I was physically unable to workout for nearly 2 years. I was medically retired, my injuries making me unfit for service. It has taken me the last two years to get to where I am today.

This morning I walked my children to school, a 6 mile round trip...I do this trip three times a day...so 18 miles each day. I've been doing this for the last two months. I feel fantastic...and am now looking at getting back into lifting.

My issues being that I underwent several reconstructive surgeries on my arms and legs...and I have been afraid to do more than body weight exercises for a long time now. It is terrifying.

That's a pretty amazing achievement. 18 miles in a day is nothing to scoff at even for somebody that hasn't had reconstructive surgeries. I can't give too much lifting advice for people with your background, I would definitely talk to some folks before diving too much into it. But certainly it's something that you should be able to handle at some point, I mean if you can walk 18 miles you should be able to do at least some lifting.

Edit: But definitely talk to a doc or physical therapist first, that would be my advice.


Sounds like what I want is more CNS development, then. I need to look into that more. And probably just cutting out biceps completely. Well officially, anyway. Nothing to be done about holding the kids.

Not too worried about shakes, as I've gotten shakes from most of my intense sessions in martial arts training anyway. I push pretty hard, but at least the recovery is quick.

As a forewarning, the shakes and weakness from maxing a lift in the gym is very different from heavy cardio and intensity sessions of martial arts. It will last most likely all day, or several hours later you'll still have a little shakiness and some problems with gripping. Not that you shouldn't do it, but more that that's an expected side-effect, so I wouldn't stress too much about it. Also it could be that you might recover more quickly from that sort of thing, that's also a possibility.

[Winter_Wolf]

As a forewarning, the shakes and weakness from maxing a lift in the gym is very different from heavy cardio and intensity sessions of martial arts. It will last most likely all day, or several hours later you'll still have a little shakiness and some problems with gripping. Not that you shouldn't do it, but more that that's an expected side-effect, so I wouldn't stress too much about it. Also it could be that you might recover more quickly from that sort of thing, that's also a possibility.

:biggrin:
I've had shakes from lifting before. Makes shower time a little frustrating, but the Y I go to has an acceptable steam room and it seems to help a little. But point taken, I'll be mindful of things.

Mostly I worry about my elbow tendons and ligaments. Weakest link, sadly. Would wrapping help with that? I'm a little leery since if it's anything like back braces it might be counter productive. I've seen guys wrapping their knees when they do squats, I'm guessing it's a similar principle.

[AMFV]

:biggrin:
I've had shakes from lifting before. Makes shower time a little frustrating, but the Y I go to has an acceptable steam room and it seems to help a little. But point taken, I'll be mindful of things.

Mostly I worry about my elbow tendons and ligaments. Weakest link, sadly. Would wrapping help with that? I'm a little leery since if it's anything like back braces it might be counter productive. I've seen guys wrapping their knees when they do squats, I'm guessing it's a similar principle.

The problem is that wrapping won't help at all with your tendons and ligaments, it'll help if you're lifting more weight than they can handle, but they won't develop or improve. So the general rule is that you should use the wraps sparingly. Basically if you're doing a more CNS focused workout it would be something like this:

You'd start with a warmup, lightweight, no straps, just getting the muscle awake.

Then you'd move onto something that's near your max, probably maybe 70-80%, still no straps, try for a handful of reps, but don't go to complete failure.

Then you'd increase the weight incrementally until you're around as much as you can lift for the rep range you're aiming for (which will probably vary week to week.) Once you're around 90% of your max (or when you start to feel pain in your joints), then you can wrap, but not before, because again, you want your ligaments and joints to get stronger.

Usually people don't wrap elbows, but you can get sleeves that have about the same point for them, they're just a little more flexible, they won't have as much support as wraps, but they'll still help out quite a bit.

And as for what I was talking about with weekly periodization usually powerlifters do something like this:

Week 1: Work up to a 5RM at some percentage of 1RM, so you're shooting for five reps per lift.
Week 2: Work up to a 3-5RM, with slightly heavier weight.
Week 3: work up to a 3 RM max.
Week 4: Work up to a 1 RM max.
Week 5: Deload.

Now this is the tricky part, because it's going to be a little bit different for you, basically you have to play around a little to figure out what you'd do and what works best for you. I tend to alternate speedwork/volume weeks with heavy effort weeks, working up to a maximal effort week. But that's me and for what I want. Some resources would be the Texas Method and West Coast Barbell's method, they can explain maximal strength periodization a little bit better than I can.

So again, wraps are not like a belt, a belt doesn't hinder any development, so you can basically use it all the time, wraps will, so you should basically use wraps for when you're working with much heavier weights. Like in the example above, you'd wrap on Weeks 3 and 4, but not on the other weeks, so that way you'd continue to strengthen those tendons and ligaments.

[Winter_Wolf]

Sweet, thanks for the pointers.