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enderrocksonall
2007-07-10, 03:01 PM
My group is having a huge debate over e-mail about this so can the rules lawyers on the boards help us out with this one.

A while back the rogue and the mystic theurge got bitten by a were-tiger. The theurge was cured by a break enchantment scroll before he transformed, but the rogue was SOL. BTW I didn't want them shucking off the curse too easily, so I told them that remove curse wouldn't work, they had to get a break enchantment.

So my request from you guys is to give me a comprehensive list of what an afflicted were-tiger gains.

Do you actually gain 6 HD? Do you gain +2 NA always and +5 in hybrid or animal form? Can an afflicted hybrid pass on lycanthropy or do they have to be a natural lycanthrope? Extra feats? Extra skill points?

Give me absolutely everything guys, cause its confusing the heck outta me!

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 03:17 PM
The HD are always there, but use the animal con modifier. +2 Natural armour is always there, but in animal or hybrid, gets base natural armour from creature as well. Can pass on lycanthropy, gets the aimal hit dice for calculating saves, skill points for animal form at all times, and all animal base feats.

Basically, yes, what you said. You get animal HD for feats and saves, but you get the ANIMAL feats, not those of your choice. You get the natural armour, which increases in hybrid/animal form. I recommend you put the animal points in control form :smallbiggrin:

Jasdoif
2007-07-10, 03:18 PM
Check the lycanthrope template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#creatingALycanthrope), it says everything you need to know.

As for your questions...Yes, you get 6HD (and the +2 level adjustment). Yes, your natural armor improves by +2 in humanoid form, and will be +5 in hybrid/animal form unless it's normally higher. No, afflicted lycanthropes can't pass on lycanthropy. Not quite, you gain the standard feats of a tiger on top of your regular feats. Yes, you get skill points for the 6HD, to the order of 6 times (2 + int), counting skills mentioned in the tiger's description as class skills for these skill points.

You also get +2 to Wisdom, low-light vision, scent, a bonus/ability to influence tigers....While in hybrid/animal form you gain DR 5/silver and +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con (this +6 Con increases the hitpoints of your animal hit dice only, but increases it regardless of form)...Oh, and you have to make checks to prevent/cause form changes and stuff.

I'm pretty sure I've missed something, so be sure to read over the lycanthrope template.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-10, 04:03 PM
Basically it's gamebreaking to afflict someone with lycanthropy midgame.

He is now 8 ECL ahead of the rest of the party. He won't be able to make change shape checks, so he will be running around as a tiger a lot of the time ... but in that tiger form he gets pounce and thus 5 attacks on a charge. If he can pounce something and get sneak attack he has a good chance of killing it in one round.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 04:15 PM
I agree with PinkysBrain.

The Rogue has gained 6 animal HD and +2 LA, plus a boatload of ability mods and powers, completely unbalancing the group.

In a very long term campaign that wouldn't be entirely game breaking. At first he'd be an unstoppable powerhouse, but eventually everyone else will catch up to him since the small incremental amounts of XP everyone gains means he's essentially stuck that ECL for a while.

But I don't see how he's going to make Control Shape checks unless you allow him to retrain.

My advice: Follow the RAW and allow Remove Curse to work.

enderrocksonall
2007-07-10, 04:47 PM
Actually he has been kinda so-so with it. He didn't get the HD, skill points or feats except for Iron Will, so it wasn't quite a big deal. I told him that the next level he'll get all that stuff, but I'm pretty sure he's about to die, since he walked alone into a room with a CR 10 creature and a crack-load of traps. He currently is ECL 8. This might end up being a moot point.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 04:51 PM
Whoops, you're right, only natural lycanthropes can pss on the curse. Doh!

horseboy
2007-07-10, 04:52 PM
So my request from you guys is to give me a comprehensive list of what an afflicted were-tiger gains.



Cat girl form and an extra weakness to logical arguments?

enderrocksonall
2007-07-10, 09:40 PM
Cat girl form and an extra weakness to logical arguments?

Ba-dump-sha!!!

Krrth
2007-07-11, 01:09 PM
Well, you can always use the savage speicies as an idea. Basically, they don't get powers all at once, but a little every time they take a level in weretiger. If it's an ecl8, that means 8 levels of weretiger before they can take anything else. Should keep them from overpowering everyone else.

Greenfaun
2007-07-11, 04:02 PM
In fact, the official weretiger progression is here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

Weretiger goodness, one level at a time. As with all Savage Species material, balance is debatable.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-11, 07:08 PM
In fact, the official weretiger progression is here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

Weretiger goodness, one level at a time. As with all Savage Species material, balance is debatable.

You're correct in saying that Savage Species can be unbalanced. But the weretiger is from the Monster Manual.

Dhavaer
2007-07-11, 07:13 PM
You're correct in saying that Savage Species can be unbalanced. But the weretiger is from the Monster Manual.

Racial progressions are from Savage Species, though, and thus their balance is suspect.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-11, 08:25 PM
Racial progressions are from Savage Species, though, and thus their balance is suspect.

It is generally agreed, however, that the Monster Class Progressions Rules are actually the most balanced part of Savage Species(at least, compared to things like Emancipated Spawn{which is "balanced", in that it restores you to non-d12s in your previous classes. Which is really more of a "WTF were they smoking?" sort of thing.} and the Feral Template) Especially if you enforce the "NO OTHER CLASSES MAY BE TAKEN UNTIL PROGRESSION IS COMPLETE!" limitation.

Greenfaun
2007-07-12, 12:11 PM
Hey, I said "debatable," and sure enough, there was debate.

Personally, I feel true balance is already a lost cause and the monster pseudo-classes are fun, so why not?

lukelightning
2007-07-12, 12:39 PM
Basically it's gamebreaking to afflict someone with lycanthropy midgame.


That's why it's a curse! Being bitten by a werewhatever isn't supposed to be a "hooray" thing. It's supposed to be a tragedy. You are no longer the original person, you are a bloodthirsty killer who will eat your own family under a full moon.

So the easy thing is "your character is now a monster...if you can't cure it you'll need a new character."

Feralgeist
2007-07-12, 01:54 PM
If they're afflicted you can't give them Control Shape. Only Natural Lycanthropes get that.

sikyon
2007-07-12, 02:03 PM
So the easy thing is "your character is now a monster...if you can't cure it you'll need a new character."

Why do you need a new character? What happens to the old one?

Krrth
2007-07-12, 02:04 PM
It becomes unplayable and thus an NPC.

Teilos
2007-07-12, 04:08 PM
If they're afflicted you can't give them Control Shape. Only Natural Lycanthropes get that.

Only afflicted lycanthropes get control shape as a skill. Naturals automatically succeed on any control shape situation so they do not need to have this skill.

I do not know savage species so I can't judge on that. Basically I would just not give the hd at first and would not level him up, until his XP are high enough to reach a new level considering his new LA. Thereafter I would demand to level up the animal levels first. Yes, he will get some fine powers first. But not being able to control them in a lot of situations makes this more a burden than a benefit.

If the player and the DM likes the idea of an afflicted lycanthrope then I see no problem to play it.

enderrocksonall
2007-07-13, 02:20 AM
I'm planning on making him keep the curse for a while...you know get him used to it, then he'll get cured in the middle of a night encounter.

After he has been the tank for the group for a few game months, they will have to pull together to be victorious!!!