Immortality; Potions of eternal life etc.

[bookkeeping guy]

Couple of questions...

Familiars are linked to their caster right?


So if a caster has an immortal pet...and they are linked...wouldn't there be a feat he or she could purchase for ...extended life or sharing partial immortality? I'm not suggesting they wouldn't have to pay a feat for it...and it would probably have no combat value.

There's another question too...what about potions of eternal life?

Wouldn't potions of eternal life have to come from something? You can't make something from nothing. You'd have to take it from ingredients right? So are potions of eternal life coming from some kind of human or humanoid harvesting? That would raise questions about how they are produced and who is selling them...right?

[Eldariel]

Couple of questions...

Familiars are linked to their caster right?


So if a caster has an immortal pet...and they are linked...wouldn't there be a feat he or she could purchase for ...extended life or sharing partial immortality? I'm not suggesting they wouldn't have to pay a feat for it...and it would probably have no combat value.

There's another question too...what about potions of eternal life?

Wouldn't potions of eternal life have to come from something? You can't make something from nothing. You'd have to take it from ingredients right? So are potions of eternal life coming from some kind of human or humanoid harvesting? That would raise questions about how they are produced and who is selling them...right?

I'm not aware of any way to have a familiar have any influence on your own lifespan. They're basically extensions of you, not the other way around, so your immortality would be presumably able to keep the familiar alive, not the other way around. As for the other, where are you getting the Potion of Eternal Life from? Not an item I'm aware of in this game.

That said, D&D immortality is usually not achieved by harvesting life energy (though there are ways to do that: at least Steal Life [BoVD] & Iouliam's Longetivity [LEoF]). There are plenty of potentially itemizable ways to achieve immortality: off the top of my head, there's a spell called "Kissed by the Ages" [Dragon #354] that enables you to make another person immortal by linking their life to an object. Thus it could be Scrolled and cast by just about anyone. Comes at no cost other than tying your life to an object.

Then there's of course Wedded to History-feat [Dragon #354] (which also gives you nice bonuses and is actually worth it) though that's harder to get through items: Dark Chaos Shuffle, I suppose. Then of course Magic Jar-shenanigans/True Mind Switch/permanent Polymorph Any Object or any form of undeath/deathless transformation could be used to acquire an immortal body easily enough. Many of those can be itemized as well. Then there's the option of Reincarnating/Last Breathing every once in a while to maintain an eternally young body.

[shaikujin]

This guide might be helpful:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1179

[Âmesang]

There used to be potions/elixirs of longevity in AD&D (which I recall a number of characters utilizing, including Ioulaum, I imagine… before he became some sort of elder brain lich thing). Off the top of my head I believe they'd subtract 1d6+6 years off of your life… but had a cumulative chance of reversing all subtracted years.

One should also be able to cast a contingent reincarnation/last breath to revert to a young adult body (perhaps augmented with wish to ensure you're reverted to a physically younger version of your original body).

[Gemini476]

There's also some Necromancy spell somewhere that lets you deal constitution damage to someone and add those to weeks of your life, IIRC.

Actually, googling around there seems to be multiple spells of that type? Generally in the 8th-9th level range, though.

[Braininthejar2]

You can chill in some plane with no time (either astral, or a custom made pocket plane) and only communicate with the outside world via astral projection.

[Willie the Duck]

Now that (for the past 16 years) character aging has been divorced from actual character advantage (minus some shenanigans involving venerable kobolds) by age not powering the most powerful spells, there is no reason not to have immortality be a relatively minor advantage in terms of rules. It should be hard and rare in the game world, because the quest for immortality (and either the dark sacrifices one makes to achieve it, or the lessons learned in the earnest quest for it) are huge plotlines.

[Segev]

I relatively recently discovered in the back of Champions of Ruin something that - I think - is called a "living zombie." (I may be misremembering the name; AFB at the moment.) It's relatively obscure, but while making these things is not a trivial process, the rules are presented completely, and having the enslaved servants is only a relatively minor benefit.

You're limited by your Charisma in how many you can maintain. But each one you maintain halves the physical effects of aging, as you're sucking life from the living zombie to sustain yourself. This explicitly stacks, and does so directly. So if you have 2 living zombies, you age at 1/4 the normal rate. If you have 3, you age at 1/8. And it just keeps getting slower from there.

Not complete immortality, but it's a good start! Makes a simple potion of youth (1d4 years, IIRC) far more efficacious. And those don't carry the Potion of Longevity's penalty of increasing risk that it will reverse the effects of all prior Potions of Longevity. (The latter potions, in 2e, removed far more years than mere potions of youth, but there was an ever-increasing percentage chance that a potion would backfire and remove ALL prior potions of longevity effects. Dust.)

[flappeercraft]

You can be undead like a necropolitan, Steal life spell from BoVD and IIRC there is a potion artifact for this in Maure Castle that makes you age Immortal but you still get aging penalties and bonuses just dont die of age.

[Grim Reader]

Then there's of course Wedded to History-feat [Dragon #354] (which also gives you nice bonuses and is actually worth it) though that's harder to get through items: Dark Chaos Shuffle, I suppose.

Wedded to History does nothing for your lifespan, unfortunately. It just lets you select ancient backgrounds.

[Eldariel]

Wedded to History does nothing for your lifespan, unfortunately. It just lets you select ancient backgrounds.

True by strict RAW but given that many ancient backgrounds (forgotten deities, times of greater magic, etc.), are only possible if you live for really long times compared to most humanoids, I think the RAI is abundantly clear. Even the descriptive text of Wedded to History starts with "Born in the distant past..."

[Segev]

True by strict RAW but given that many ancient backgrounds (forgotten deities, times of greater magic, etc.), are only possible if you live for really long times compared to most humanoids, I think the RAI is abundantly clear. Even the descriptive text of Wedded to History starts with "Born in the distant past..."

Technically, the RAI and RAW are not in conflict, here.

As an example, in a game I ran, one of the PCs was actually the scion of a truly ancient and powerful house...from an empire so long-forgotten that literally no mortal remembered it had ever existed. No, not even the elves. Or dragons. But he was born to the last ruler of that house before its fall. When everything was collapsing around her and she knew that her family was doomed, the Amber Lady used her mighty magics to seal her little boy up in a massive amber crystal, which was unearthed many millennia later, and which disgorged him when it was exposed to the air. He grew up a slave in an elven noble's house.

He would, however, have been eligible for Wedded to History and the associated Ancient feats, by virtue of having been born that long ago. Despite being mortal, growing up and aging at mortal human rate, etc., once out of his stasis.

Another way to achieve it would be via immersion in quintessence or a long, long duration sequester spell. Or by being turned to stone and only restored to flesh centuries or millennia later.

[Eldariel]

Technically, the RAI and RAW are not in conflict, here.

As an example, in a game I ran, one of the PCs was actually the scion of a truly ancient and powerful house...from an empire so long-forgotten that literally no mortal remembered it had ever existed. No, not even the elves. Or dragons. But he was born to the last ruler of that house before its fall. When everything was collapsing around her and she knew that her family was doomed, the Amber Lady used her mighty magics to seal her little boy up in a massive amber crystal, which was unearthed many millennia later, and which disgorged him when it was exposed to the air. He grew up a slave in an elven noble's house.

He would, however, have been eligible for Wedded to History and the associated Ancient feats, by virtue of having been born that long ago. Despite being mortal, growing up and aging at mortal human rate, etc., once out of his stasis.

Another way to achieve it would be via immersion in quintessence or a long, long duration sequester spell. Or by being turned to stone and only restored to flesh centuries or millennia later.

That would only work as an explanation "being born in the distant past" were a requirement for the feat though.

[Gemini476]

Isn't it the other way around, with Wedded to History and the other feats in that article being meant for PCs who start the game with the Endless trait? Like, I'm pretty sure that's the RAI and either way the RAW doesn't have the feat give you the Endless trait (although there's a spell that does).

[Segev]

That would only work as an explanation "being born in the distant past" were a requirement for the feat though.

Technically, it sounds like the feat MAKES you have been born in the distant past. Kind-of like having physically aberrant traits isn't a requirement of taking the Aberration Bloodline feat; taking the feat means you were born with aberrant physical traits.

I'm not sure, honestly, as I don't know the feat. Can you take it after first level? Usually the "this feat assumes X is true about your background, but it isn't a requirement in the prereqs section" feats are "must take at level 1" types.

[Grim Reader]

True by strict RAW but given that many ancient backgrounds (forgotten deities, times of greater magic, etc.), are only possible if you live for really long times compared to most humanoids, I think the RAI is abundantly clear. Even the descriptive text of Wedded to History starts with "Born in the distant past..."

No-one of the legends you'd normally apply it to has any kind of extended lifespan. See there is this myth archetype called the "Sleeping hero". It involves a hero that rests in suspended animation and will awaken when his people is in great danger. Examples are the Danes Holger Danske, the Germans Karl, the Scottish Thomas the Rhymer, the British King Arthur, the Americans Steve Rogers and Buck Rogers, and so on.

All of them were born in the distant past, all of them age normally when active. None of them have any kind of immnity to aging.

The article the feat includes a 9th level spll that does grant the endless quality, Kissed by the Ages.

[Eldariel]

Technically, it sounds like the feat MAKES you have been born in the distant past. Kind-of like having physically aberrant traits isn't a requirement of taking the Aberration Bloodline feat; taking the feat means you were born with aberrant physical traits.

I'm not sure, honestly, as I don't know the feat. Can you take it after first level? Usually the "this feat assumes X is true about your background, but it isn't a requirement in the prereqs section" feats are "must take at level 1" types.

It's a first level only feat.


No-one of the legends you'd normally apply it to has any kind of extended lifespan. See there is this myth archetype called the "Sleeping hero". It involves a hero that rests in suspended animation and will awaken when his people is in great danger. Examples are the Danes Holger Danske, the Germans Karl, the Scottish Thomas the Rhymer, the British King Arthur, the Americans Steve Rogers and Buck Rogers, and so on.

All of them were born in the distant past, all of them age normally when active. None of them have any kind of immnity to aging.

Depends on how you cut your myths. There are your Merlins, Väinämöinens and so on that are suggested to have endless lifespans. That said, that has little and less to do with the feat in question.

[bookkeeping guy]

Ok the reincarnation option seems the least troubled. But what age would you start at if you did reincarnate? Would you start as a young person, child, or...just use a starting character age? and would their minds be wiped or remember their past?

And would you even be able to pay a wizard to get a high level spell done on you like reincarnate or wish or is that out? (assuming you could even afford it...)

[Eldariel]

Ok the reincarnation option seems the least troubled. But what age would you start at if you did reincarnate? Would you start as a young person, child, or...just use a starting character age? and would their minds be wiped or remember their past?

And would you even be able to pay a wizard to get a high level spell done on you like reincarnate or wish or is that out? (assuming you could even afford it...)

Reincarnate (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) is a 4th level Druid-spell, though it comes with the unfortunate side-effect of requiring you to die first. The spell creates a "an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand" - so, young adult. Grown-up body with presumably no modifiers. You just keep the same mind, more or less. Your mentals/skills/etc. are untouched except for the single lost level; in D&D memories are probably a property of the soul. So no real damage there. Last Breath from Spell Compendium does the same except without level loss, but it has to be cast within 1 round of your death so it's easier for something to go wrong.

List price for Reincarnate is paltry 7 x 40 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) or 240gp + 1000gp for the component. However, if you have a friend, you might get by with only the 1000gp of rare oils and unguents. Last Breath is half that price, at 500gp. 1240gp every ~50 years is probably within your ability.


Other notable options include taking another body. Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm)-shuffling yourself into an undead/golem/whatever body is the PHB-only version. Magic Jar shuffle = cast Magic Jar, take over target body, cast another Magic Jar, reside in the second magic jar while the first is taken out of range from the body and broken by an assistant, return to the second body. Magic Jar kills if you if inhabit the Magic Jar used for casting the spell or a body; residing in another Magic Jar means nothing happens to you though the unlucky original host is gonna die. True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) requires less hassle but being a 9th level discipline power you can only cast for yourself, it's much more specific (if you're not exactly Telepath, you'll need a rank in Use Psionic Device, skill boosters and an item for it).

Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) is the third easy Core option, (probably) enabling you to assume an immortal body (such as Undead or Construct) with two successive castings. Of course, it's only Permanent, not Instantaneous so the transformation is still magical in nature and thus can be Dispelled and is not functional in an AMF/Dead Magic Zone. Thus it's probably less awesome than the other options.

If you can find someone to cast the Kissed by the Ages-spell [Dragon #354], that's of course the easiest. But it being an obscure 9th level spell that apparently people are reluctant to use due to jealousy and that kinda died away, it might be more hassle than many of your other options.

[Afgncaap5]

I think one of the issues with the Wedded to History feat is that it's a feat that specifically grants a flavor bonus in that it allows you to pick "one of the backgrounds" in the article, along with the mechanical benefits that come with it. The backgrounds themselves, meanwhile, are left intentionally vague for the purpose of DMs to use and incorporate into their campaign world, thus allowing any kind of worldbuilding or story to be used.

The benefit is that if your DM says "In time immemorial you discovered the Fountain of Youth, and have enjoyed immortality ever since then", then congratulations, the feat will grant immortality for you in that DM's particular campaign. If, instead, your DM says "Immortality? No, you were just cryogenically frozen in the Atlantean/Martian science cooperation expo and you woke up to what appears to be a very primitive world compared to where you left" then I'm sorry to say that the feat doesn't grant immortality for you in that DM's particular campaign. Better luck next time.

So, does this feat make your character immortal? No. Does it allow for your character to be immortal? I'd say so, yes.

[Segev]

Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) is the third easy Core option, (probably) enabling you to assume an immortal body (such as Undead or Construct) with two successive castings. Of course, it's only Permanent, not Instantaneous so the transformation is still magical in nature and thus can be Dispelled and is not functional in an AMF/Dead Magic Zone. Thus it's probably less awesome than the other options.


While I will acknowledge that the above is a commonly-accepted interpretation, I feel obliged to point out that it may well not work, depending how you understand the RAW to function. I subscribe to the following interpretation, and this interpretation is less conducive to achieving immortality.

PAO's duration is dependent on the difference between your underlying form and the form it grants you. If you PAO twice, the second PAO's duration is listed as "permanent" if you PAO into what you just turned into, as asserted in the prior interpretation. However, when the original PAO's duration wears off, the duration is now calculated based on the underlying (original) form of the target. So it may well be that you now only have one round left of the second PAO.

You need to be permanently in an underlying form that would grant permanency to the PAO to get a permanent PAO.


Again: it's up to your DM how he rules this. I just feel obliged to point out this alternate interpretation, in part because it's the one to which I subscribe. (It also leads to slightly less cheese, without being a house rule.)

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has an "immortality potion" - but it's a minor artifact. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArtifactsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sun%20Orchid%2 0Elixir)

[Âmesang]

The Player's Guide to Faerûn has the wondrous magic item, Tasmia's heart, a high-necked bustier that, among other things:

"…extends the wearer's life span, doubling the number of years in each remaining age category of the character's life, as well as her maximum age. For example, a human adult who dons Tasmia's heart would reach middle age at 70, old age at 106, venerable age at 140, and maximum age 2d20×2 years after that."

[Jack_Simth]

I relatively recently discovered in the back of Champions of Ruin something that - I think - is called a "living zombie." (I may be misremembering the name; AFB at the moment.) It's relatively obscure, but while making these things is not a trivial process, the rules are presented completely, and having the enslaved servants is only a relatively minor benefit.

You're limited by your Charisma in how many you can maintain. But each one you maintain halves the physical effects of aging, as you're sucking life from the living zombie to sustain yourself. This explicitly stacks, and does so directly. So if you have 2 living zombies, you age at 1/4 the normal rate. If you have 3, you age at 1/8. And it just keeps getting slower from there.Fun bit:
Charisma controls how many you can control, but it's how many you've made that are still active which governs how slowly you age. So you may very well only be able to control two... but if you've made 3000 of them that are still in that half-alive state, which you're keeping in separate cages so that the little issue that they're not controlled is irrelevant... well, you've got a long, long time until you need to worry about crow's feet.
While I will acknowledge that the above is a commonly-accepted interpretation, I feel obliged to point out that it may well not work, depending how you understand the RAW to function. I subscribe to the following interpretation, and this interpretation is less conducive to achieving immortality.

PAO's duration is dependent on the difference between your underlying form and the form it grants you. If you PAO twice, the second PAO's duration is listed as "permanent" if you PAO into what you just turned into, as asserted in the prior interpretation. However, when the original PAO's duration wears off, the duration is now calculated based on the underlying (original) form of the target. So it may well be that you now only have one round left of the second PAO.

You need to be permanently in an underlying form that would grant permanency to the PAO to get a permanent PAO.


Again: it's up to your DM how he rules this. I just feel obliged to point out this alternate interpretation, in part because it's the one to which I subscribe. (It also leads to slightly less cheese, without being a house rule.)
Keep in mind: That's not actually a big deal. Kingdom, Size, Int is sufficient to get that +9 Duration Factor. There's a LOT of things that don't have explicit aging tables in D&D, and by lore are ageless.

Let's assume you're a human, and you want to keep your Int about where it is. Let's further assume you're not an Int-based caster:

A Chain Devil or Bearded Devil is Int 6, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom (only three categories are listed, and it doesn't have an "etc" on there like class or related does).
A Hound Archon is Int 10, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.
A Night Hag is Int 11, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.
A Satyr, Barbed Devil, or Azer is Int 12, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.
A Bralani or Rakshasa is Int 13, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.
A Dryad or Erinyes is Int 14, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.
A Nymph, Succubus, Ghaele, or Trumpet Archon is Int 16, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.
An Astral Deva is Int 18, medium, and a member of the animal kingdom.

Most of those are also close to humanoid in form (so you can add a Hat of Disguise or something and pass without too much trouble, as well as use most of your equipment afterwards). Note also that those are all Core.

[Eisfalken]

As a side note, limited wish allows you to mimic reincarnate, and only costs a little XP. Disadvantage is that it's 7th-level spell, making it a little higher than normal, but not a problem in a large settlement of some sort.