Rogue/Ranger/Bard?

[zioth]

I'm about to start in a new campaign, which I expect will have a good mix of roleplaying and combat. It's likely to be low on magic items, and it will be more gritty than the average campaign -- we'll have to deal with disease, food shortages etc.

My vision of the character at first was that he was a rogue/bard. He's an adventurer who collects mystical artifacts, believing that they're better off in his hands than in the hands of the "savages" who currently possess them. So that's rogue. He's also a natural leader who inspires people to follow him, and I really want him to have access to certain spells like Charm Person. That's the bard side. His magic will be subtle and explainable, which also suggests bard.

Then I wrote up a long background story, and realized he had been able to survive in the wilderness for months at a time. That suggests Ranger.

Sure, it's easy to create a bard with high Survival, or a ranger with the Urchin background, or whatever else to combine these three class concepts into fewer than three classes, but is there any practical way to multiclass rogue/ranger/bard?

[Specter]

This immediately reminded me of 3.5's Fochlucan lyrist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2), see if that's similar to your concept.

Why yes, it's totally doable. Lore Bard is a natural choice. With those bonus three skills, you'll be the ultimate skill master.

As for ranger, take 5 levels for Extra Attack and sweet exploring spells like Darkvision and Pass Without Trace. Anything further than that will depend on how much of a combat machine you want to be.

Another option is Druid, trading your fighting capacity for better spellcasting. Up to you.

As for rogue, I'd take only two levels, for Expertise and Cunning Action (sometimes you just have to disengage, and bonus hiding is great for sniping).

As a final build, I'd go Lore 13/Hunter 5/Rogue 2. You lose only one ASI that way.

[Sir cryosin]

Ok you got your fluff so let's get to thr crunch. What are you looking to get from each class mechanic wis. Because I think that just a straight lore bard could work with your fluff with out multiclassing. If your looking for mechanical gain then let us know so we can give better advice and opions.

[DivisibleByZero]

An I the only one who thought that a simple arcane trickster with the outlander background would be appropriate?

[zioth]

Ok you got your fluff so let's get to thr crunch. What are you looking to get from each class mechanic wis. Because I think that just a straight lore bard could work with your fluff with out multiclassing. If your looking for mechanical gain then let us know so we can give better advice and opions.

Rogue:

Sneak attack for a little extra ranged attack damage when I'm not using spells.
Expertise
Disengage as a bonus action.
While some of the Thief archetype abilities would be great, I'd rather focus on bard.


Ranger:

Mainly the level 1 wilderness survival stuff.
A combat style would be nice.


Bard:

Skills, skills skills! Yes, that means Lore bard.
Spells, skipping anything flashy. I want enchantments, Identify, buffs etc.


While I expect the game is going to focus mostly on roleplaying, I get the impression (which might be wrong) that the DM also likes nearly-lethal encounters. So survivability is good.

Skills are my main focus. I want to be very good at stealth, lock picking / traps and persuasion. My secondary skills are perception, arcana and survival. So another problem of mine is that I need a lot of high stats (cha, dex, int, wis, and con for survival), but it's standard 27 point buy with Human as the only race choice.

It could be that the only real option is to narrow my focus a little. With some changes to the back story (he only survived because he convinced people to help him), I can get rid of Ranger and the Survival skill.

[Specter]

An I the only one who thought that a simple arcane trickster with the outlander background would be appropriate?

That would work too, but the spell selection and versatility would be more limited.

[Willie the Duck]

An I the only one who thought that a simple arcane trickster with the outlander background would be appropriate?

It certainly has all the right parts (with the exception that this character probably should have the Arcana skill, so one of the races that picks up an extra skill would probably be needed).

[DivisibleByZero]

It certainly has all the right parts (with the exception that this character probably should have the Arcana skill, so one of the races that picks up an extra skill would probably be needed).

Outlander grants Survival and Athletics.
Rogue gives tools + 4: Stealth, Perception, Persuasion, and Arcana (choose Athletics, you already have it, you can swap for any skill, you take Arcana).
That's every skill listed above, plus Athletics.
Any race will do, including human, which is the only one allowed for this game.
It hits on everything the OP wants, being a bardish rogue via arcane trickster, and the survivalist aspect via outlander background, while having all the skills desired, and getting it all without some convoluted multiclass.
I just don't see the point in Rog/Bd/Rng when straight rogue will do in this case.

[JeffreyGator]

With 3 classes this is going to come down to how long are you going to wait for the first feat? It isn't that hard to build the optimal MC for a given level - but there won't necessarily be a set progression between each of these levels. Especially if you have a campaign starting at level 1 and moving to an unknown point. Hence everyone is ignoring your initial ask and building for single class options.

First your 27 point buy stats
15 cha
15 dex
13 wis, con
9 int or str
Gives S9 D16 C14 I10 W14 Ch16
You could lower con and raise int if you wanted but I doubt that I would do that.

I wouldn't take ranger for the wilderness lore and a skill and the armor profs but might with the option of some spells and the style. I still think that there are better options with background or a feat maybe. (druid MI for guidance and goodberry and ??)

I would aim for rogue(AT) 12 bard(lore) 6 ranger 2

Leveling as follow
Rogue
Bard
Ranger 2 (everything will feel delayed all the time with this character so I'd experience that early)
(at this point the single classed folk have an ASI and their class thing - you have 2nd level casting from two class and 8 skills)
Bard to 4 (finally get the ASI and 3 skills from lore and second two expertise
AT to 6 (last two expertise)
So you are now level 12, down an ASI on the single classers have six cantrips, 7 levels of casting but only level 2 spells.
2 more bard and then finish AT

[Specter]

Remember if taking AT that it's not worth it with low INT, because most enchantment/illusion spells rely on your cast stat.

[beargryllz]

I'm going ranger/rogue and then maybe warlock. I'm pretty stoked to see how it turns out!

[zioth]

Thanks for all the replies! AT is definitely worth considering, though I'll have to get rid of the survivalist aspect unless I can get away with fewer languages known (another aspect of the character -- the Sage background fits him best).

The Ranger/Rogue/Bard builds look good, but mainly starting at a much higher level. This game will be played every three weeks, so it will take forever to get to level 12 when the build starts to hold its own. It's looking like I might have to cut out at least one of the three classes.

[Willie the Duck]

and Arcana (choose Athletics, you already have it, you can swap for any skill, you take Arcana).

I had not thought to use that exploit in this situation.


Thanks for all the replies! AT is definitely worth considering, though I'll have to get rid of the survivalist aspect unless I can get away with fewer languages known (another aspect of the character -- the Sage background fits him best).

Consider custom background. It's obviously DM ruling, but it's in the core book. Pick too appropriate skills and then two languages/tools. the later being two languages.

[DivisibleByZero]

I had not thought to use that exploit in this situation.

The word exploit carries negative connotations.
Swapping a skill that you already have for another skill of your choice is not an exploit in the negative sense. It's just something that the rules explicitly allow you to do. It's not like this is some wierd loophole, it's literally an option that they typed to expressly allow, otherwise they wouldn't have typed it to begin with.

[tieren]

I would want to get to rogue 7 for uncanny dodge and evasion.
I would want ranger 5 for the extra attack, fighting style, etc...
I would do the rest bard.

rogue7/ranger 5/bard 8, you're only really down 1 ASI.

I would take arcane trickster not because your illusion spells would be great but so you don't lose another 2 spell levels on the MC spell casting chart.

Focus on dex and cha, then con. Be an archer, you can even use magical secrets to grab swift quiver to double your rate of fire.

[Willie the Duck]

The word exploit carries negative connotations.
Swapping a skill that you already have for another skill of your choice is not an exploit in the negative sense. It's just something that the rules explicitly allow you to do. It's not like this is some wierd loophole, it's literally an option that they typed to expressly allow, otherwise they wouldn't have typed it to begin with.

I did not mean to imply a negative connotation. I actually suggested taking the even more open option of just picking two skills and two lingos/tools (which is also a typed option). I simply hadn't considered the option.

I'm rather in favor of the AT and its simplicity, but I understand how bard helps the OP with the needs they've expressed in the meantime.

[DizzyWood]

That would work too, but the spell selection and versatility would be more limited.

I swear I saw someone refluff the AT as some sort of Indiana Jones dungeon surviving relic hunter. Messed with the spell list mostly. That sounds like what we are looking for.

[Ashrym]

An I the only one who thought that a simple arcane trickster with the outlander background would be appropriate?

I agree. I'm not sure why the rogue is actually needed based on the fluff described, tbh. It seems pretty straight forward to go with a ranger urchin background, rogue outlander background as the flipside, or an nature themed bard with various background options because the naturalist bard stems back to 1e or 3e splat materials.

@zioth, MC levelling drags heavy on spells casters like bards and it depends on what you are really looking for. Personally, I think 2 levels of rogue for cunning action, 3 levels of ranger for hunter's mark and the first hunter abilities, and 15 levels of bard would go a long way. Valor gets you your extra attack instead of going lore.

I'm not clear where an adventurer collecting treasure is necessarily a rogue or that a bard is a natural leader who inspires others to follow him. A fighter who takes history and survival as his or her class skills fits that criteria as well. Match that up with sage as the background for more scholarly or urchin/criminal/spy background for a more roguish nature. Indiana Jones style can be a fighter or rogue in 5e depending on what mechanics a person is trying to get out of the character as well as the fluff. INT makes sense based on the character's activities so spells can be added by EK easily enough. EK spells don't need to be flashy.

I would just make a valor bard, folk hero (which also covers survival) so people might respect or admire the character, and use the 3 bard choices on arcana, history, and investigation. CHA and DEX investment on the character already plus jack-of-all-trades covers other relevant skills well enough. If a person does want more skill then giving up extra attack is always possible and lore bard also works extremely well for the base concept.

My advice is look at what mechanics you specifically want and then keep it simple. Background and character development do what you want without needing to drag extra classes in.

[djreynolds]

I like it, you can have good scores in wis/int/chr which are all tied to skills and hang back with a bow.

I would go AT 3/"new"Beast master 14/lore bard 3, get find familiar and have two pets, the familiar granting advantage for your panther.

Archery style will make up for having a 16 in dex for a long time, and the beast will do plenty of damage.

[Citan]

I'm about to start in a new campaign, which I expect will have a good mix of roleplaying and combat. It's likely to be low on magic items, and it will be more gritty than the average campaign -- we'll have to deal with disease, food shortages etc.

My vision of the character at first was that he was a rogue/bard. He's an adventurer who collects mystical artifacts, believing that they're better off in his hands than in the hands of the "savages" who currently possess them. So that's rogue. He's also a natural leader who inspires people to follow him, and I really want him to have access to certain spells like Charm Person. That's the bard side. His magic will be subtle and explainable, which also suggests bard.

Then I wrote up a long background story, and realized he had been able to survive in the wilderness for months at a time. That suggests Ranger.

Sure, it's easy to create a bard with high Survival, or a ranger with the Urchin background, or whatever else to combine these three class concepts into fewer than three classes, but is there any practical way to multiclass rogue/ranger/bard?
It could work sure, but you'll have to sacrifice a bit to make it work because of multiclass stats requirements.

Considering your wishes thematically and mechanically, I'd suggest the following
Swashbuckler Rogue 3+ / Valor(Lore) Bard X / Ranger 1(-3-5)

Be a half-elf so you can start with 16(15+1) DEX, 16(14+2) CHA, 13 CON and 13(12+1) WIS.

Rogue Swashbuckler is suggested to take advantage of your high CHA to give you better Initiative and free Disengage on attack, along with the usual perks of Rogue 1/2.

Ranger is what should determine your choice of Bard School.
If you go only 1, take Valor Bard.
If you go up to 3 (Hunter > Horde Breaker) and go melee, take Valor Bard. For a ranged build, either school is nice
If you go up to Ranger 5, then take Lore Bard.

The reason behind this is that you probably want as many attacks as possible: better damage and more chance to land Sneak Attack (and extra damage if using Hunter's Mark), so Extra Attack is a good feature for you.

Since you seem determined to play a gish, I'd say going Ranger up to 5 is a good choice: in total, you get Archery or TWF style, Horde Breaker, Extra Attack and 4 spells among Hunter's Mark, Entangle, Fog Cloud, Pass Without Trace, Silence and Spike Growth.
Barring Entangle, none of those depend on your WIS so you can use them efficiently.

Or you can disregard potential extra attaks altogether because 1) you don't plan on using Hunter's Mark 2) you want to focus on spell part and just stay Ranger 1 while taking Lore Bard, so you can grab good lvl 3 spells as early as possible. In which case going Arcane Trickster may be better, since once you are AT Rogue 9 you can use his nice feature with Bard spells.

TL;DR
Half-Elf recommanded anyways.
1) Swashbuckler Rogue 5 / Hunter Ranger 5 / Lore Bard 10: good survivability, good sustained damage (3 attacks per turn, 4 with Sharpshooter or dual-wielding, possible Hunter's Mark stacking), plenty of Expertise and skills, plenty of spells for utility and debuff, + Magic Secrets to round up the build.
Very great but some features will come very late, you will have to choose to focus on martial or on spells first.

2) Swashbuckler Rogue 7-8 / Ranger 2 / Bard 10-11:
we keep Ranger 2 for the Fighting Style, and up Rogue instead to get more Sneak Attack damage and defensive features while keeping a decent set of spellcasting.

3) Arcane Trickster 9+ / Ranger 1-2 / Bard 10+
Become a deadly threat that debuffs groups of enemies from the shadows.

Main problem of these build is you have your ass streched between two chairs, so you will be stuck with low level spells for all your career, and you will really enjoy it late. So not recommended unless you get a head start (such as starting the campaign as a level 5-6 character at least), especially the third one. The first one, while three-classed, is probably the easiest since it stacks the most on martial, low-level features. You can be a pretty decent warrior that blooms later than others but catch up around character level 7-8 compared to others (TWF + Horde Breaker + Extra Attack + bonus action attack + Hunter's Mark), everything coming after being just spells/skills versatility added on top.

[Waazraath]

I think the conclusion is: there are lots of options. If I would summarize the OP's wishes, without immediately looking at classes, I see the following.

Lets see for the fluff:
- rogueish type: can be done with background, class, or 'just' RP without mechanical support
- natural leader: at least decent charisma score, but with that, RP could suffice
- subtle spells: bard works, arcane trickster works, but most casters will, is for a large part depending on spell selection
- survive in wilderniss: ranger, or any other class with survival, or background

For the crunch:
- skills (lots and / or with expertise) : extra skills can gotten with (among others) races: variant human, half elf, elf; classes nature cleric (nature skill), knowledge cleric (expertise in 2 extra skills, for example history and nature for this build), the already mentioned rogue, bard, and ranger (extra skill)
- some wilderness survival: see above: a background suffices
- spell casting (nothing flashy): see above, almost any casting class could do this job
- some combat options, both offensive and defensive: almost all classes offer something in this degree.

My conclusion: you can almost play whatever you want. A rogue ranger bard multiclass is fine, as are most (or all) other suggestions made so far. Some other options:
- knowledge cleric: 2 extra skills with expertise (nature & history), skill / tool at will with channel divinity, +1d4 on skill rolls with guidence cantrip, access to many subtle spells, including enchantment, identify, and buffs; maybe a bit lacking in the combat department, but for example with ranger 5 / cleric 15, that's not a problem. Pick half elf for a little extra charisma, and for example urchin or criminal background; ande done.
- outlander background nature cleric 18 / rogue 2; decent tricks in combat, with shillelagh, shield, heavy armor, cunning action, and maybe a SCAG cantrip; 3 extra skills through classes, and expertise; combine with half elf or variant human for extra skill(s), charisma and maybe a fitting feat.
- etc. etc. etc.


Long live 5e. The options are many in this one.

[zioth]

Thanks for all the advice! I'll have to keep stewing about this one. There really are a lot of ways to build this concept mechanically, many of which don't involve multiclassing. Given the likely speed of the campaign, I should probably avoid triple-classing, since I don't want to wait a year of real time before my character comes into his own.

Arcane Trickster is definitely something to consider, and I could also multiclass with bard/rogue -- rogue2/bard18, or lore3/AT17, or valor5/AT15.

[Ashrym]

Thanks for all the advice! I'll have to keep stewing about this one. There really are a lot of ways to build this concept mechanically, many of which don't involve multiclassing. Given the likely speed of the campaign, I should probably avoid triple-classing, since I don't want to wait a year of real time before my character comes into his own.

Arcane Trickster is definitely something to consider, and I could also multiclass with bard/rogue -- rogue2/bard18, or lore3/AT17, or valor5/AT15.

If you go valor 5 you likely want valor 6 for extra attack. You would lose 1d6 SA in the process but increase your chances of landing a hit for SA accuracy while the weapon damage is likely going to be higher than that d6 lost anyway. It's nice to pick up slippery mind for free but resilient could cover it and move you over to war caster for concentration.

EDIT: extra attack also allows for keeping the bonus action available for cunning action, unlike TWF for the SA accuracy.

[zioth]

If you go valor 5 you likely want valor 6 for extra attack.

I meant 6. :)

[Sigreid]

From what you describe, I would go the rogue/bard combo with the Outlander background. Covers everything you want and all but assures your party will be immune to food shortages.